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Logs on 2021-02-10 (freenode/#xmonad)

00:05:43 brttmsn is now known as AlexNevesky
00:07:48 <AlexNevesky> anyone know how to get shell prompt working? i got the extension being imported but for whatever reason when i push my keybind for it, nothing happens?
00:08:01 <AlexNevesky> Do i need to configure it in my xmonad.hs?
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07:51:25 <Solid> god damn I was looking up this distrotube guy just now and man has he done a lot of videos on xmonad
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08:26:35 <Solid> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY9HPm1N16Y this one in particular is a pretty good show-case of some cool functionality
08:26:50 <Solid> might be worth putting onto the new-and-improved™ homepage even
08:27:07 Solid has procrastinated enough now, back to work!
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09:37:47 <mc47> Solid, his videos on xmonad are pretty cool! They kinda motivated me at first to give xmonad a try
09:41:09 <dminuoso> It is clear to me, that mc47 must be German.
09:42:22 <Solid> hah
09:42:48 <mc47> dminuoso, not quite, just living there since 3 years
09:43:11 <Solid> german-speaking they meant
09:43:33 <mc47> may I ask how ? just curious haha
09:43:37 <Solid> though with that comma before the "that" I would speculate on dminuoso also being German :)
09:43:59 <mc47> hahahah
09:44:38 <mc47> I'm actually Tunisian, I speak a lot of German since three years so it influenced my english :)
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09:57:09 <dminuoso> Solid: Touche.
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11:23:19 <mc47> I finally found the logs that the stdout/stderr of xmonad get piped to
11:23:31 <mc47> and I was surprised with """xxxmommbooabbraa:rr e::o fee ooafft a atat na anen a erealaryr llsyyt assgtteaa"gg
11:23:32 <mc47> ee""
11:37:05 <Solid> hahahaha
11:45:28 <Liskni_si> that facepalm moment one realizes that xmobar/xmonad are advertised as lightweight yet under the hood it's all Strings and one-byte reads/writes
11:46:57 <Solid> I mean they're pretty light-weight compared to GNOME3 ;)
11:48:05 <Liskni_si> true, one-byte writes end up being better than using unsafe javascript bindings to glib that leak memory and handles like crazy
11:48:25 <dminuoso> Liskni_si: It's beyond me, how almost irrelevant breaking changes were introduced like Foldable/Traversable or AMP, but everything clings onto String like crazy
11:48:43 <dminuoso> Like, my first thing to get rid off base, is String.
11:49:29 <dminuoso> People can argue all day long how "elegant" algorithms on lists are, but these types of algorithms are rarely applied to textual data. And if they are, chances are you have non-trivial amounts of data too..
11:49:47 <Solid> String is bad, but the strings that xmonad/xmobar handle are so tiny that I think using text is more of a "this is morally correct" issue than anything else
11:50:03 <dminuoso> Well, it causes friction whenever you interface with it.
11:50:44 <Liskni_si> Solid: wouldn't be so sure about that
11:50:49 <Solid> unless you also work with strings :>
11:50:55 <dminuoso> Well sure.
11:51:24 <dminuoso> The reality is, we all rely on GHC optimizations to make string performance acceptable in many cases.
11:51:28 <Solid> and I think changing all of base String -> Text would certainly be a much bigger break than AFP and MFP etc.
11:51:31 <dminuoso> Which is rather poor
11:51:37 <Liskni_si> Solid: you remember our discussion about O(n²) nub? the O(log n) nub uses pointer and more memory, that makes it slow
11:51:45 <Liskni_si> *pointers
11:52:02 <Liskni_si> String is all pointers and thunks and _lots_ of garbage collection afterwards
11:52:47 <dminuoso> The pointer indirection causes extremely poor locality of reference, as well as extreme amounts of cache evictions
11:53:13 <dminuoso> So merely dealing with String has global performance impacts on other things
11:54:09 <dminuoso> We tend to not notice how bad String performance is, because it's usually not the performance bottleneck. But things like cache evictions are very hard to measure
11:54:42 <dminuoso> Arguably, it'd be nice if we could seamlessly exchange string data through ffi - and Text doesnt help us here either.
11:55:29 <dminuoso> (because text uses unpinned memory, you cant expose it to ffi..)
12:01:48 <Liskni_si> Solid: just say the youtube video you linked, it really is good!
12:02:00 <Liskni_si> *saw
12:36:27 <Solid> right?
12:37:05 <Solid> I do wish he didn't look up "dank" in the urban dictionary but I guess that's a small nit :)
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13:23:16 <Solid> kids are bored again
13:23:57 <geekosaur> yeh
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13:36:00 geekosaur winces at lack of quoting in shell scripts
13:39:17 <geekosaur> hm, whoops, forgot "git fetch --all"
13:39:24 <geekosaur> biab
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13:42:49 <geekosaur> ok, think I'm ready to start working on the cabal stuff. I see I have to remove instructions for sandboxes because they're gone as of cabal 3.4
13:47:01 <wz1000> dminuoso: text using unpinned memory is a good thing. Have you seen the amount of fragmentation in non-trivial programs that use ByteString?
13:47:45 <geekosaur> but that means copying when working with FFI, which happens a lot with xmonad
13:48:40 <geekosaur> then again we have to encode to UTF8 anyway (Text representation internally is that of ICU, which is 16 bit)
13:51:45 <dminuoso> wz1000: Well, perhaps there could be a way to control whether `text-next-generation` gives you pinned or unpinned buffers, depending on whether you have to do FFI?
13:52:27 <dminuoso> But yeah, like geekosaur points out, the internal encoding of text is another issue in the way.
13:52:31 <geekosaur> again, only if someone rewrites text to be utf8 underneath, otherwise there has to be a copy/conversion step anyway
13:52:41 <dminuoso> As long as text is unpinned, the internal encoding doesnt matter.
13:52:54 <dminuoso> Or not as much, anyway
13:53:06 <dminuoso> Right, geekosaur.
14:01:36 <Liskni_si> wz1000: does the fragmentation happen with short-lived bytestrings as well or just long-lived ones?
14:02:10 <wz1000> long lived ones
14:02:37 <wz1000> if a block has no live bytestrings in it, there is no fragmentation
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14:03:24 <dminuoso> Liskni_si: If its short lived, it doesn't really matter anyway, does it?
14:04:53 <Liskni_si> short lived String is still a waste of CPU cycles, caches, and some more CPU cycles in GC
14:05:10 <Liskni_si> so the choice of data structure still matters
14:05:35 <Liskni_si> (but I'm no expert on bytestring vs text, hence the question)
14:06:29 <dminuoso> In GHC pinned and unpinned blocks reside in the same megablocks, dont they?
14:07:31 <dminuoso> If text used pinned buffers, and resided in special megablocks, it wouldn't really cause fragmentation across the board.
14:07:41 <dminuoso> or at least not as much
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14:12:15 Liskni_si has no idea :-(
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14:51:52 <geekosaur> o.O
14:52:29 geekosaur used external bt keyboards for years with xmonad, and can't think of any reason they wouldn't work unless they also messed with xinput2
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15:06:05 <dminuoso> Trying to find a joke about how a flaky bluetooth keyboard could cause IRC disconnects...
15:06:11 <dminuoso> Anyone?
15:07:02 <Liskni_si> Today a screen/irssi vulnerability joke would be more appropriate.
15:07:21 <dminuoso> How's that?
15:07:25 <dminuoso> Didn't get the memo
15:07:43 <Liskni_si> dminuoso: https://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2021/02/09/7
15:09:03 <dminuoso> It's beyond me how people still write stuff in C...
15:09:28 <dminuoso> And when they do, asan is off.
15:12:10 <Liskni_si> It's more about rewriting old stuff that works not being much fun.
15:13:02 <Liskni_si> Like why haven't we rewritten everything to not use String and to support Wayland and have a compositor and whatnot. Because what we have works so our time is best spent elsewhere. :-/
15:19:57 <Liskni_si> mc47: you haven't updated us on your xmonad-related school course in a while, btw
15:20:26 <Liskni_si> mc47: did you have to write some sort of final report or just the one we saw already?
15:21:09 <mc47> Liskni_si, I'm still gonna write a final report on the contributions and the interaction with the community, and do a presentation in mid march, after I'm done with my exams
15:21:48 <Liskni_si> I see
15:22:26 <Liskni_si> by that time we'll surely have merged the dynamic bars PR as well, good :-)
15:22:40 <mc47> haha :D
15:22:53 <Solid> :D
15:23:00 <mc47> The conversation matters more than the actual PR being merged or not
15:23:26 <dminuoso> Liskni_si: Oh I can do away without a compositor.
15:24:02 <dminuoso> I know, 30 years from now Ill be one of those old, gray, bearded folks saying how GNU Emacs is the only true editor, defending X11, and still writing Haskell.
15:24:19 <dminuoso> Impossible to convince otherwise.
15:24:21 Solid truly sees himself in that
15:24:23 <Solid> scary
15:24:29 <Liskni_si> I wish I could be that guys
15:24:46 <mc47> That guy is awwesome
15:24:47 <dminuoso> What's wrong? Wrong gender for the beard? Dont have hair?
15:24:51 <Liskni_si> instead I have this massive FOMO about not keeping up with everything
15:24:57 <dminuoso> Oh.
15:25:06 <Liskni_si> without the FOMO, I already am that guy though
15:25:20 <Liskni_si> except being gray, that is
15:25:43 <Liskni_si> I have so little hair there's plenty of pigment to keep it dark
15:25:58 <dminuoso> Well, its sort of like these sysadmins these days, who still swear by their postfix, writing tcl at day, compiling their kernel at night..
15:26:10 <dminuoso> If you know what kind of personality I mean
15:26:29 <dminuoso> The folks you see in #perl !
15:26:32 <dminuoso> :P
15:26:33 <Liskni_si> oh don't even think about telling me there's something newer and better than postfix
15:28:46 <Liskni_si> well anyway, if you ever become this guy, the young will make fun of you for (the equivalent of) still writing in C and not doing any fuzzing or asan
15:29:08 <Liskni_si> and I don't want to be _that_ guys, hence the FOMO :-/
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16:47:44 <Liskni_si> mc47: btw I don't think the conversation matters more; shipping code that works and solves real problems for real people matters a great deal, the conversation is just means to that end
16:48:42 <Liskni_si> (it does matter from the perspective of individual learning, I know; there's a balance out there somewhere)
16:49:30 <mc47> Yes, what you said is true, I was referring to the lab when I said that though ;)
16:49:47 <Liskni_si> oh, I see
16:50:04 <mc47> Like the point of the lab is to do open source and get over the mental block of "open source is scary, I can never contribute"
16:50:34 <mc47> so it was out of the question that somebody spends the whole semester just coding and then submit a PR at the end and that's it
16:57:16 <mc47> but in the general sense, I agree with what you said
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17:44:34 geekosaur wonders what he's just let himself in for
17:45:07 <geekosaur> "optimization: 2" in cabal.project.local might mean rebuilding the known world with optimization, which might take a while
17:45:48 <geekosaur> oh, good, just xmonad and xmonad-config, not e.g. all of dbus's deps (lens!)
17:46:28 <geekosaur> testing my stuff as I go, this should end up being a more robust config than the existing one
17:49:23 <geekosaur> hm. apparently accepted "executable-stripping" config but ignored it, sigh
17:54:39 <geekosaur> and it looks like that's a known bug because I use cabal build instead of cabal install. pfeh
18:26:55 <Liskni_si> mc47: I thought I'd check out your refactor-dynamic-log branch and do some finishing touches on it to save some time on the github PR back-and-forth, and I got an idea:
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18:27:06 <Liskni_si> the DynamicLog module is just too huge now
18:27:49 <Liskni_si> how about we put all the new stuff into XMonad.Hook.StatusBar and keep only the bare minimum to keep compatibility with the last release in DynamicLog
18:28:52 <Liskni_si> we'd need to use .hs-boot to be able to use X.H.StatusBar in DynamicLog though, but I think it's probably worth it, as we'd then proceed to deprecate the compat wrappers in DynamicLog
18:29:43 <Liskni_si> and now the questions are: is this a good idea? shall I do it or would you like to keep the PR open a bit more? :-)
18:30:54 <Liskni_si> (just look at the changelog since last release; the DynamicLog entry looks like "we added X; we added Y to abstract away some X; we added Z cause Y still wasn't good enough"
18:31:20 <Liskni_si> so why don't we clean it up a bit :-))
18:33:42 <mc47> I think it's a good idea, and no it's absolutely fine if it stays open
18:33:46 <mc47> what's hs-boot btw?
18:34:19 <Liskni_si> hs-boot is what you need to have if you want a cycle in imports
18:34:31 <Liskni_si> X.H.StatusBar needs to import PP from DynamicLog
18:34:51 <Liskni_si> X.H.DynamicLog needs to import makeStatusBar or statusBar or something from X.H.StatusBar
18:35:33 <Liskni_si> so we'll need to create a .hs-boot file that lists the types for one of those
18:36:09 <Liskni_si> probably X/H/StatusBar.hs-boot with a type declaration for the one function that is needed to keep the dzen/xmobar/statusBar wrappers in DynamicLog
18:36:26 <mc47> Oh I see
18:36:52 <mc47> I definitely think a cleanup is a good idea, mainly because a lot of the changes aren't in the release
18:37:44 <Liskni_si> ok, awesome
18:37:58 <mc47> The new PR could also go in there :D
18:38:12 <Liskni_si> exactly, and that will solve the naming problem
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18:40:17 <mc47> if you have something on your todo list go ahead, and I'll take care of it if you want
18:42:53 <Liskni_si> I could work on the ewmh stuff, yeah
18:43:58 <mc47> alright I'll do it then, a chance to learn about the hs-boot
18:45:27 <Liskni_si> at least I finally pushed myself to add your fork as a remote here, so I'll be able to range-diff the force pushes and be quicker to react to reviews
18:45:32 <Liskni_si> should've done that earlier
18:46:18 <Liskni_si> I'd really like to merge it soon, it's been through many iterations
18:47:11 <Liskni_si> (actually if anyone thinks it's worth it, we can merge it as it and refactor in a new PR, as we'll be breaking several months worth of additions anyway)
18:48:35 <mc47> I kinda tend to a new PR, since it might be less intimidating for people to look and see what changed exactly
18:49:06 <mc47> It makes more sense for someone who didn't see the discussion on the IRC at least
18:51:55 <Solid> the dynamiclog changes entry reads pretty funny I have to say
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18:55:01 <Liskni_si> ok I'll make a fixup with the small tweaks I wanted to make and let's merge it then
18:55:42 <mc47> awesome
18:57:31 <mc47> So if I understood correctly, the statusBar* except for statusBar, xmobar and dzen will be nuked and replaced with the new module and interface, right?
18:57:49 <Liskni_si> git show v0.16:XMonad/Hooks/DynamicLog.hs
18:57:58 <Liskni_si> this is your reference what should be kept :-)
19:04:27 <geekosaur> may I suggest moving PP to its own module and importing from both, rather than creating the nightmare of a .hs-boot file?
19:05:26 <Liskni_si> and reexporting the entire module from DynamicLog then
19:05:33 <Liskni_si> yeah, that seems even better
19:06:41 <Liskni_si> which reminds me that I stumbled upon AusCyberman introducing themselves on one of those modern communication tools and they're a high schooler
19:07:15 <Liskni_si> which explains the gap between us :-)
19:08:02 <Liskni_si> and now that we'll have DynamicLog split and cleaned up, it will make all the more sense to put the dynamic icons into its own module as well
19:09:05 <Solid> doesn't mean it shouldn't comply to the same standards as the other new contrib modules ;)
19:09:10 <Solid> but yes, that does explain a lot
19:09:31 geekosaur kinda figured from the username
19:09:52 <Liskni_si> aren't github usernames for life? :-)
19:13:01 <mc47> Awesome
19:13:24 <mc47> Refactoring is kinda therapeutic for me, and it'll be a good break from learning for the exams
19:14:01 <mc47> (stupid electives, I'm spending all my day on economics instead of focusing on a very awesome semantics' course)
19:14:15 <Liskni_si> I feel more like https://i.gifer.com/39Op.mp4
19:14:29 <Liskni_si> (now I'm fighting with haddock, for example)
19:14:48 <mc47> that gif hahahaha
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19:38:07 <geekosaur> hm. does the new XDG stuff support $XDG_CONFIG_HOME?
19:38:55 <Solid> yes
19:39:01 <geekosaur> (I have a build script that guesses at the xmonad config dir with fallbacks if no directory is specified)
19:39:09 <geekosaur> ok, I'll add that in too
19:39:48 <geekosaur>     SRC_DIR="${XMONAD_CONFIG_DIR:-${XDG_CONFIG_DIR:-${XDG_CONFIG_HOME:-$HOME}/.config/xmonad}}"
19:40:10 <geekosaur> amazing what you can do in one line of shell that took so much work in haskell >.>
19:40:20 <Solid> :D
19:40:31 <Solid> I don't think we're looking for XDG_CONFIG_DIR though
19:40:35 <Solid> unless that's something that you do
19:40:51 <geekosaur> no, that's wired in as one of the Xdg functions
19:41:14 <geekosaur> which come to think of it is probably what handles $XDG_CONFIG_HOME too
19:41:55 <geekosaur> and all of that is defaulting if a directory isn't specified. I'm not sure if I should copy the existing build script's directory, which looks like someone's personal config
19:42:06 <Solid> we're using System.Directory.XdgConfig, but according to that doc it only looks at $XDG_CONFIG_HOME
19:42:44 <geekosaur> $XDG_CONFIG_HOME is the directory under which .config, .local, .cache etc. are found
19:42:50 <geekosaur> and defaults to $HOME
19:43:10 <geekosaur> there's a parameter which specifies which of the directories you want from that set
19:43:28 <Solid> "It uses the XDG_CONFIG_HOME environment variable. On non-Windows systems, the default is ~/.config."
19:43:34 <Solid> this is form the System.Directory docs
19:43:38 <Solid> is that wrong?
19:46:06 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/libraries/directory-1.3.6.1/System-Directory.html#v:getXdgDirectory
19:46:14 <geekosaur> is what I thought we were using
19:46:47 <Solid> yeah we're using that
19:47:02 <Solid> but if you look at `XdgDirectory' you'll see what I posted
19:48:08 <geekosaur> I think that doc is wrong and what I described (and used in the line I pasted earlier) is right
19:48:47 <geekosaur> but I can double check the spec
19:49:45 <geekosaur> sigh, looks like I'm wrong. thought in particular they had a way to relocate all the dotfiles in one go for e.g. network shared home dirs
19:51:51 <geekosaur> ok, fixed locally but not in repo yet much less pushed :)
19:52:06 <geekosaur> that's a bit of a pain since I have to switch networks to use ssh
19:56:34 <geekosaur> anyway the new script can be used without editing if you put everything in xmonad's config dir
19:56:52 <geekosaur> or you can specify as with the old script
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20:20:11 <geekosaur> now I have to figure out how to do the same thing with stack, ideally including using the correct way to find the new executable instead of rooting around in its innards
20:20:48 <geekosaur> which I think is some form of "stack path", or maybe something similar to the way I use "cabal install" to get a properly exported version
20:21:20 <Liskni_si> not sure how clean it is but I just use stack exec -- ghc … which runs ghc with all the necessary stuff in its pkg path or whatever
20:21:43 <geekosaur> oh, hm, exec name hack won't work if they use package.yaml. altough these days that's deprecated
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20:21:58 <geekosaur> or at least non-recommended
20:22:20 <Liskni_si> well yeah it's not for anyone who has xmonad.hs in an actual cabal/hpack package
20:22:37 <Liskni_si> I just have a plain xmonad.hs that I want built against stack-built xmonad
20:22:48 <Liskni_si> and for that stack exec ghc works well
20:22:51 <geekosaur> the current build-with-stack.sh deals with these things
20:23:05 <geekosaur> mostly by not dealing :)
20:23:29 <geekosaur> (for example, forcing the user to specify the executable name. mine extracts it from the cabal file)
21:02:53 <Liskni_si> mc47: I pushed a fixup into your branch (I still have no idea how github decides whether to allow it or not)
21:04:45 <mc47> Yes I just got notified, LGTM!
21:05:09 <Liskni_si> okay, I'll rebase autosquash, push again, merge
21:06:47 <mc47> awesome :) I'll make another PR with what we discussed tomorrow (maybe tonight if I'm done with learning)
21:16:30 <Liskni_si> https://github.com/xmonad/xmonad-contrib/pull/443#issuecomment-777041434
21:16:41 <Liskni_si> summarized like this it looks like a lot of work :-)
21:25:26 <mc47> :D
21:36:08 <geekosaur> Liskni_si, there's a checkbox on the PR to allow project maintainers access to it
21:37:02 <Liskni_si> oh!
21:37:32 <Liskni_si> I feel you already told me a while ago, so I will forgot in a month again :-(
21:37:54 <geekosaur> I wasn't the one who told you, I think
21:39:05 <Liskni_si> :-)
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All times are in UTC on 2021-02-10.