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Logs on 2021-03-18 (freenode/#xmonad)

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06:44:25 <deebo> is it possible to create a keybind to center a floating window in what ever size it exists
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07:17:51 <coldpress> you can probably get the needed info from the X server, I don't know if there's any xmonad modules that does this
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07:20:25 <Guest40> any nixos xmonad users here?
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10:40:57 <mc47[m]> deebo: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/xmonad-contrib-0.16/docs/XMonad-Hooks-ManageHelpers.html#v:doCenterFloat
10:41:23 <mc47[m]> oh wait, you wanted a keybinding
10:42:16 <mc47[m]> I shouldn't open IRC before drinking my morning coffee..
11:40:31 <mc47[m]> deebo:
11:40:54 <mc47[m]> try this ("M-C-c", withFocused (\w -> floatLocation w >>= windows . center w . snd))
11:41:03 <mc47[m]> and you also need
11:41:04 <mc47[m]> center win (W.RationalRect _ _ w h) = W.float win (W.RationalRect ((1 - w) / 2) ((1 - h) / 2) w h)
11:42:32 <deebo> i'll try that, thanks
11:43:14 <mc47> it places it almost at the center, because that doesn't take the status bars you have into consideration
11:54:17 <mc47> What modules need better documentation, in your opinion? I want to open an issue collecting all of them in one place
11:54:42 <mc47> That's something a lot of users can contribute to, without having to be necessarily familiar with Haskell
11:55:25 <mc47> Also, it would be nice to add screenshots to the layouts. The question is, where should we host the pictures?
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12:04:18 <Liskni_si> no idea about specific modules, I'd say a good tutorial about installation and basic stuff and status bars would go a long way
12:04:52 <Liskni_si> although as I said yesterday, I'm somewhat hoping that making the installation easier is better than writing docs for the current approach :-)
12:06:07 <Liskni_si> screenshots for layouts - +1, hosted either by github (they recently added it to the editor so you can just hit edit on a file and drag images) or maybe in the same place where Solid'd tutorial is going to be, or just the website repo
12:06:41 <Liskni_si> I'd tend to think that xmonad may become irrelevant sooner than github stops hosting those attachments, but we never know
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12:25:37 <mc47> I have no idea about the installation, as cabal is still somewhat of a mystery to me.. but I agree that it should be simpler
12:25:50 <mc47> Yeah, github should be enough for hosting
12:26:34 <geekosaur> cabal isn't that simple, sadly.
12:26:53 <geekosaur> currently it requires a cabal file and cabal.project file.
12:27:28 <geekosaur> there's also hacky "global install" but that causes future problems especially if you have any dependencies
12:28:08 <geekosaur> basically new cabal breaks our workflow… but old cabal meant we potentially broke everyone else's (see "cabal hell")
12:29:45 <mc47> I gave up on cabal and only use stack now
12:30:32 <geekosaur> so you traded a cabal.project for a stack.yaml. I don't see much of a difference there
12:46:43 <Liskni_si> so, um, does cabal tell ghc about paths to packages in a way that prevents something like "stack exec ghc" from existing?
12:47:16 <Liskni_si> I'm fairly certain that we can get the self-recompilation work with stack-installed xmonad
12:47:40 <Liskni_si> I'm probably just going to look into it sooner or later, and deal with cabal as well
12:47:45 <Liskni_si> it can't be that hard, can it?
12:48:20 <geekosaur> cabal exec works much the same way stack exec does
12:48:35 <geekosaur> and I had an alternate workflow working but I think cabal 3.4 broke it
12:49:27 <geekosaur> there's still the question of how it finds the packages it needs, I think stack exec exposes only the resolver (which cabal has no equivalent of, so it doesn't)
12:50:05 <Liskni_si> stack exec definitely exposes all packages that would be in scope during stack build
12:50:15 <Liskni_si> otherwise my setup wouldn't work, and it's worked for many years
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12:51:12 <geekosaur> so you have a stack.yaml specifying packages? I don't think stack will otherwise expose anything, since the point of its existence is to not expose anything not used
12:51:34 <geekosaur> (but stack exec without a stack.yaml uses the global resolver and nothing else, I think)
12:51:53 <Liskni_si> https://github.com/liskin/dotfiles/blob/home/src-haskell/stack.yaml
12:52:13 <Liskni_si> resolver + packages that are all local git submodules
12:52:24 <Liskni_si> and then when I do stack exec, all of that is in scope
12:52:56 <geekosaur> right, the problem is that cabal has nothing equivalent to a resolver
12:53:21 <Liskni_si> I don't really care about the resolver
12:53:24 <geekosaur> the rest of stack.yaml is covered by cabal.project, but packages in scope come from the cabal file
12:53:37 <geekosaur> you implicitly do care about it because it's why stack works here
12:53:37 <Liskni_si> I just want to capture whatever was the environment during building of xmonad
12:53:44 <Liskni_si> and use that same environment to compile xmonad.hs
12:56:16 <geekosaur> https://github.com/xmonad/xmonad/issues/199 is about as close as you're getting to that but note that the same -package-env has to be specified to both the xmonad/xmonad-contrib and xmonad.hs builds
12:56:43 <geekosaur> no, ghc doesn't have this built in as such (well, it has environment files but they cause more problems than they solve)
12:58:46 <Liskni_si> https://github.com/xmonad/xmonad/issues/199#issuecomment-609433196 is indeed pretty much what I'd like to do, yeah
12:58:55 <Liskni_si> (the end of it)
12:59:24 <geekosaur> in fact that uses environment files, it just doesn't use default environment files which tend to pollute other builds unexpectedly
13:00:21 <Liskni_si> well, if I understand it correctly, we can just put "install xmonad using `cabal install -z --lib --package-env=$HOME/.xmonad/ xmonad xmonad-contrib` and everything will just work" to our homepage
13:00:36 <geekosaur> hopefully
13:00:50 <Liskni_si> maybe it's not perfect, but it sounds like quote quite an improvement from what we have now
13:00:59 <geekosaur> and until they decide to remove anything resembling v1 workflow :/
13:01:00 <Liskni_si> s/quote //
13:01:17 <Liskni_si> oh, this uses the v1 stuff?
13:01:33 <geekosaur> it's pretending to be v1
13:01:47 <Liskni_si> good enough I guess :-)
13:01:47 <geekosaur> that's more or less what environment files do
13:02:33 <coldpress> I find stack easier than cabal; at least upgrading with stack is easy
13:03:18 <geekosaur> cabal's not a problem once it's set up, although you need 3 files (at least if you want a local checkout of git xmonad/contrib)
13:03:49 <Liskni_si> coldpress: do you have a build script then?
13:04:16 <geekosaur> I've already upgraded xmonad-contrib once since setting this up and it Just Worked (pull, then mod-q)
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13:19:29 <Liskni_si> oh, a couple minutes of researching this and I'm reading snoyberg and hvr being mean to each other ě
13:19:32 <Liskni_si> ♥
13:20:41 <Liskni_si> anyway, I think capturing GHC_ENVIRONMENT and GHC_PACKAGE_PATH during build (TH?) and using that when recompiling might just work; we'll just need to be somewhat careful to not do that when building distro packages
13:21:06 <Liskni_si> there's some potential for breakage but I feel this can make the installation easier for a lot of users
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13:48:39 <Solid> so I think the first draft of the tutorial is pretty much done
13:48:54 <Solid> I think it's time to open myself up to public ridicule now :)
13:49:39 <Solid> I think regardless of how the final thing will be layouted, for now I'll just post the gfmd document as a pr to the core xmonad repo; seems like the easiest way to gather suggestions
13:49:42 <Solid> any objections?
13:59:17 <mc47> awesome! I'm sure it'll be great :D
14:03:08 <Solid> I have some open questions and TODOs, but certain things I either can't answer (like if this is even comprehensible for another brain) or I'm not quite satisfied with what's there right now (e.g. because I don't use trayer I didn't have much to say here outside of what was already there)
14:04:36 <Solid> not to mention I'm not quite sure about certain things, like going heavy-ish on the xmobar configuration
14:05:01 <Solid> but I feel like this is something that a lot of people care about
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14:11:26 <coldpress> Liskni_si: yes, I use pbrisbin's build script https://brianbuccola.com/how-to-install-xmonad-and-xmobar-via-stack/
14:18:07 <Liskni_si> coldpress: oh, cool, another stack exec ghc :-)
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15:49:07 <Solid> well there we go
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16:14:25 <Solid> mc47: re documentation: I have noted down X.L.WindowNavigation, X.A.WindowNavigation, X.P.Pass, and X.L.Spacing to be in need of a doc update
16:14:40 <Solid> oh actually X.P.Pass should be good now
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16:18:30 <geekosaur> when you ask if xscreensaver is still relevant, do you mean the program or the Xss extension that used to be optional in the X11 package?
16:18:49 <geekosaur> (X11 no longer has optional dependencies, they all have to be provided now)
16:19:01 geekosaur is still catching up…
16:19:45 <Solid> I mean the program
16:20:15 <Solid> as in, do people still use it? I never did but then again I never used a tray either and the seem to be quite common
16:20:27 <Solid> s/the/they/
16:22:01 <geekosaur> I used to but haven't bothered setting it up on my current system. I have no idea what the norm is
16:22:57 <geekosaur> I think a lot of people will use things like slock, or if they're using xmonad with a DE they'll use the DE's locker
16:23:43 <geekosaur> that said, if you're into eye candy then xscreensaver is eye candy: the screensaver
16:23:49 <Solid> :D
16:24:27 <Solid> I do use slock myself but I was wary of imposing my preferences onto the tutorial (not that I was particularly successful with that, though)
16:26:12 <geekosaur> nothing wrong with providing multiple examples
16:26:22 <fizzie> (`xss-lock -l -- xsecurelock` is my norm, but I think that's probably in the minority.)
16:31:05 <Liskni_si> I have no idea how slock works internally but most linux screensavers have a history of unlocking themselves whenever you let your kids/cat near the computer, so I'd vote for xsecurelock if we want to recommend anything particular
16:31:42 <Solid> It's really just used as a way to introduce keybindings and the like
16:31:48 <Liskni_si> jwz is very vocal about xscreensaver being better than the others, but I'm somewhat convinced it's not
16:31:57 <Solid> so we can also just drop it in favour of another commonly used application
16:34:12 <Solid> Liskni_si: slock itself is like 500 lines, so probably very auditable; though I don't think anyone has done that yet
16:34:56 <geekosaur> slock's had some pretty infamous failures already
16:35:04 <Solid> hah, nice
16:35:17 <geekosaur> like, it used to give up and pretend to lock if anything had an active grab when it was run
16:36:41 <geekosaur> also xscreensaver should be pretty auditable, since the saver modules are all external programs run by a small core
16:38:31 <geekosaur> whether it's "better" than the others is open to question, but it's reasonably battle-tested and jwz generally knows his stuff
16:39:02 <Liskni_si> auditable is great in theory but history tells us that running the password entry in the main locker process will sooner or later lead to someone managing to crash it
16:39:07 <geekosaur> as for unlocking when you let kids/cat near your computer, how much of that is self-inflicted? I see too many people who use lousy passwords "because they get in the way"
16:39:36 <Liskni_si> I'm fairly certain my faulty keyboard didn't type my password
16:39:45 <Liskni_si> it just crashed the xscreensaver password entry
16:40:44 <geekosaur> wow. jwz should know better than that
16:40:58 <Liskni_si> it could be a dep or something
16:41:26 <Liskni_si> I never got to actually trying to reproduce it, as the lenovo technician took the faulty hardware away
16:41:45 <Liskni_si> so I'd have to spin up a VM a try all sorts of stuff and hope I stumble upon something
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17:13:18 <mc47> Would someone set the labels here? https://github.com/xmonad/xmonad-contrib/issues/482
17:13:31 <mc47> Most importantly: the good first issue label :D
17:14:50 <mc47> which I just realized we don't have lol (we have good-first-bug)
17:15:50 <geekosaur> yeh, which is what I settled on
17:17:15 <mc47> which wouldn't quite work because that's an actual feature
17:17:18 <mc47> oh well, good enough
17:17:53 <geekosaur> we also don't have a proper entry at level 9 (needs: implementation :)
17:18:19 <Liskni_si> geekosaur: what about adding mc47 to contributors so that he can add the labels himself? :-)
17:20:49 <geekosaur> let's see if I can figure out how to do that… :)
17:21:42 <geekosaur> found it
17:23:13 <mc47> awesome! Thanks
17:23:50 <Guest40> what distro you guys use?
17:23:58 <Guest40> with + xmonad
17:24:42 <mc47> I'm using manjaro, and using xmonad together with KDE
17:24:54 <geekosaur> ubuntu focal, xmonad + mate
17:25:05 <Liskni_si> debian here
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17:49:31 <qbit2821> how does KDE work together with xmonad? I keep going back and forth between the two :)
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17:56:36 <Guest62> Liskni_si stable?
17:56:40 <Guest62> debian stable?
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17:58:19 <mc47> qbit2821 I have an xmonad.desktop file in /usr/share/xsessions/, where I set Exec=env KDEWM=/home/yecinem/.xmonad/xmonad-x86_64-linux /usr/bin/startplasma-x11
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17:59:45 <mc47> I also have a small function to hide/show this file $HOME/.config/autostart/org.kde.plasmashell.desktop to prevent plasmashell from starting
18:00:17 <mc47> it's all very brittle though, didn't have the time (or patience) to touch it once it was working
18:00:33 <qbit2821> mc47 alright, thanks. I'll probably try it out after my exams this week. Would love to get it working
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18:03:00 <everythingTaken> why no one use nixos here?
18:03:07 <everythingTaken> seems like a good fit for xmonad?
18:04:07 <Solid> people probably do
18:04:12 <Solid> nix is quite popular with haskell people
18:04:26 <Solid> I have a machine that I play around with that has nix on it, though my heart still lies with void
18:04:31 <everythingTaken> hey Solid, wassup
18:04:41 <Solid> hai hai
18:04:54 <Solid> everythingTaken: try the new tutorial and tell me what you think :D
18:05:14 <Solid> ( https://github.com/xmonad/xmonad/pull/278 )
18:05:16 <everythingTaken> I tried NixOs remember me? we talked in void channel
18:05:23 <Solid> oooh yes
18:05:37 <Solid> small world :)
18:07:44 <mc47> everythingTaken tbh I haven't had time to play around with my setup much, it was a miracle that it worked
18:07:46 <everythingTaken> wow, very comprehensive, can I read it in text format instead of git commit before it's merged?
18:07:48 <mc47> I'll probably give it a go
18:08:06 <everythingTaken> mc47: mine worked too except one thing: firefox
18:08:25 <everythingTaken> there's an issue opened in nixpkgs back in dec 2020 still open
18:08:35 <everythingTaken> it freezes momentariliy
18:08:37 <mc47> everythingTaken here's the formatted tutorial https://github.com/slotThe/xmonad/blob/new-tutorial/tutorial.md
18:09:28 <Solid> mc47: the modules not linking is very strange indeed
18:09:40 <Solid> pandoc can do it, so it has to be how github interprets the document
18:09:46 <Solid> :/
18:10:35 <everythingTaken> mc47: Solid I am by no means complete beginner with XMonad, but this is really nice! But what I liked about it, it explains what $ and other things are, which before I simply copy pasted from someone elses config
18:10:52 <geekosaur> size limit on []?
18:11:20 <everythingTaken> Solid: do you happen to have firefox on your nixos machine?
18:11:46 <Solid> everythingTaken: I do yes
18:15:28 <everythingTaken> Solid: so, I installed nixos, it's glorious. I mean configuration.nix + home manager all I need for setup. Some abstract magic goes behind the scenes and complicates things a bit, while in general Void/Arch everything almost transparent/understandable/straight customizable. It's all good until Firefox has problems where it momentarily freezes https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/106018 I tried
18:15:30 <everythingTaken> their IRC + Discord and issue is still open in github. I would love to go back to it if I can fix it. Sorry to post this on #xmonad
18:16:13 <Solid> huh interesting
18:16:23 <Solid> never had this happen to me :o
18:17:00 <everythingTaken> Solid: maybe you didn't notice, can you check going to preferences and scrolling up and down if the machine is in hand reach
18:17:42 <Solid> everythingTaken: I currently don't have access to that machine, but once I do I'll test this asap and ?tell you
18:17:51 <everythingTaken> THanks man
18:20:00 <everythingTaken> In one hand NixOs feels very robust, on the other hand messy (?)
18:21:21 <everythingTaken> I like Debian too, but packages in stable is just so outdated and arch/void is probably better than debian testing/sid
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20:07:28 <kiki_kiki> hello, can i ask for help with making a specific layout in here? thank you
20:09:28 <mc47> kiki_kiki sure, what do you have in mind?
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20:12:08 <kiki_kiki> mc47: thank you, https://www.reddit.com/r/xmonad/comments/3vowqx/hybrid_talltabbed_layout/ this but with the master window tabbed. i've tried playing around with the comments in there on top of my existing layout (which is basically just default Tall wrapped in spacingRaw and smartBorders) but couldn't get it to work
20:12:56 <kiki_kiki> uhhhh
20:17:59 <Liskni_si> Guest40: debian testing with maybe a bit of unstable; who uses stable on their daily driver? :-)
20:18:48 <Guest40> Liskni_si how would you rate testing vs arch/void, i am looking for new distro
20:18:53 <Guest40> to pair with xmonad
20:19:09 <Guest40> stability wise and some other stuff
20:19:29 <kiki_kiki> http://ix.io/2Tlb i barely know any haskell so i m not sure how/where to place "Tabbed" and/or "|||s" etc to make it work
20:21:16 <Liskni_si> Guest40: I find testing good enough for me, although compared to aur it's definitely missing lots of packages, but then my priority is a system that works, not having loads of crap, so … :-)
20:22:21 <Liskni_si> Guest40: the major pain point of Arch is that pacman doesn't support partial upgrades and downgrades, whereas in Debian it's completely fine to roll back a broken update and wait until it's fixed
20:22:49 <Liskni_si> but for some reason nobody talks about this, so maybe it's not a problem for most people? dunno. it's a complete blocker for me
20:24:13 <Guest40> yeah, rollbracks are nice. I am trying out NixOs, good haskell + xmonad support, decclarative config, rollbacks. But having some issues with firefox and it's a lot different than regular linux. they say sid gets security patches faster (but it's less stable?)
20:26:36 <Guest40> Liskni_si anyways, thanks. so you recommend debian tesing + few packages from sid (like firefox 86) right?
20:27:47 <geekosaur> it's named sid for a reason. every so often they do things like release a new glibc with no support from anything else so the rest of the system gets deleted:)  (I think they're more careful about this these days but I recall it happening a few times back when I ran sid for kicks)
20:29:18 <Liskni_si> testing is basically a week after unstable, but sometimes stuff gets held a bit longer, either if people report breaking stuff or if something big is being changed
20:30:06 <Liskni_si> and yeah, security fixes to testing come a bit late too
20:30:29 <Guest40> how often it broke for you when updated in a year Liskni_si
20:30:41 <Guest40> geekosaur makes sense thanks
20:30:44 <Liskni_si> there's testing-security that's supposed to be used by the same team that does security updates for stable for high priority stuff, but I don't recall ever getting an update through that
20:31:14 <Liskni_si> so it's basically me reading the LWN security summary through rss and pulling updates manually if it sounds bad
20:31:26 <Liskni_si> (and stuff that's bad usually gets talked about on irc as well)
20:32:02 <Liskni_si> I wouldn't really say I recommend it to everyone, but it's the best tradeoff for me personally
20:32:32 <Liskni_si> how many times it breaks? dunno. I don't recall it ever really breaking, and I've been running testing for 15+ years without reinstall
20:32:51 <Guest40> wow, that;s some longevity
20:32:53 <Liskni_si> but packages that need to be rolled back, yeah that happens a couple times a year
20:33:06 <Liskni_si> most people would just get used to stuff being slightly broken
20:34:18 <Guest40> I will have to try it, thanks Liskni_si
20:34:18 <mc47> kiki_kiki, sorry, I'm not that familiar with tabbed layouts just yet
20:34:20 <Liskni_si> but when a printer driver breaks, you can't print, and sometimes you need to print :-)
20:34:36 <kiki_kiki> mc47: ok, thank you
20:35:12 <geekosaur> what's the question again?
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20:39:21 <geekosaur> you wouldn't use ||| here unless you were prepending or appending this to the default list of layouts (`layoutHook def`)
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20:41:24 <geekosaur> hm, I do wonder if this could be done using threeColMid as a Combo or ComboP frame
20:41:33 <geekosaur> but I'm going to have to run off soon :/
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All times are in UTC on 2021-03-18.