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Logs on 2021-03-19 (freenode/#xmonad)

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08:52:29 <Solid> Liskni_si, mc47: I think my tired brain didn't say what I wanted to say; it should read "I picked trayer because I want help with it and I know people use it around here" instead of "I defer to these people to tell you why stalonetray is bad" :D
08:52:32 <Solid> sorry for the confusion
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08:54:02 <Solid> mc47: another good first issue: the screenshot for X.L.ThreeColumns is broken
08:57:03 <Liskni_si> Solid: yeah I think I got the message, but I haven't really got to reviewing the tutorial, so I only answered the stalonetray vs trayer question
08:57:24 <Solid> ah I see
08:57:39 <Solid> no rush with looking at the tutorial :)
08:58:10 <Liskni_si> it seems lots of others are looking, so it's okay if I don't :-)
08:58:48 <Liskni_si> minimizing work in progress, focusing on completing stuff rather than starting new tasks, and all that
08:59:00 <Solid> Yes! I'm really happy to read new names in the reviews
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09:02:23 <mc47> Solid I understood the first option anyway ;)
09:03:24 <mc47> Regarding the screenshot, I think we should figure out where we put them
09:03:45 <Solid> oh, btw, another wiki site we should definitely mirror on the website and update: https://wiki.haskell.org/Xmonad/Installing_xmonad
09:04:16 <Solid> screenshots on hackage are a bit iffy I agree; afaik there's no way to constrain their dimensions
09:04:32 <Solid> and we don't want huge screenshots to kill the page layout
09:04:53 <Solid> the modules that have them usually just hide them behind some alt text you need to lick
09:04:57 <Solid> s/lick/click/
09:06:44 <mc47> hmm, so maybe a layout gallery in the website, and reference the images from there?
09:07:01 <Liskni_si> https://docs.github.com/en/github/building-a-strong-community/changing-access-permissions-for-wikis
09:07:31 <Liskni_si> might be an interesting experiment to migrate content from haskell wiki and let everyone edit it
09:07:43 <Liskni_si> no idea if people are going to vandalize it or not :-)
09:08:00 <Solid> the answer is probably going to be "yes" :P
09:08:21 <mc47> isn't it a normal repo that you can submit PRs to?
09:08:24 <Liskni_si> then the next question is: is that really a problem?
09:08:41 <Liskni_si> mc47: I researched that yesterday; no, there aren't PRs for wikis
09:09:14 <Liskni_si> it is a repo underneath, one that can be cloned and probably pushed to (not sure by whom), but no UI for it other than the wiki
09:10:30 <mc47> I'm optimistic that nothing terribly bad would happen
09:10:55 <Liskni_si> not sure how others are comfortable with using github for this, but the hypothesis is that making it easier to find and way easier to edit might attract more people to keep it up to date
09:11:18 <Liskni_si> and I have absolutely no idea if it will end up better or worse
09:11:31 <Liskni_si> wikipedia and openstreetmap are doing quite good, so I'd hope for the best
09:11:47 <mc47> I remember I wanted to change something in the wiki during the summer, but I needed a special account to do it and I dropped it
09:12:06 <mc47> I think it's important to keep the overhead to a minimum
09:12:28 <Liskni_si> yeah I don't have an account either, and I'm actually old enough to have one
09:13:36 <Solid> wikipedia still has some form of moderation, at least for new contributors
09:13:52 <Solid> your changes won't go live until someone with authority has approved them (for better or for worse)
09:14:07 <Solid> but I mean we can certainly try it
09:14:33 <Solid> it's not like I judge the "tiling window manager people who also really like haskell"-community to be particularly malicious :)
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09:17:12 <Liskni_si> also if someone actually puts "xmonad is for faggots" in there, people will probably not take it at face value
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10:02:00 <mc47> are there any comments left on https://github.com/xmonad/xmonad-contrib/pull/450 ?
10:02:43 <Liskni_si> 11:13 <Liskni_si> so a quick update: I started to look at DynamicIcons last week, I'm going to merge it and submit a cleanup PR, so no need to bother with that one
10:02:59 <mc47> I mised that, thanks!
10:04:33 <Guest14> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19361186 floating vs tiling, what I like about floating is there is only one window at focus everything is in the background while in tiling you have them all in screen with sorta no depth to them. Floating can messy after a while though. I really feel the cognitive overload with tiling wms. I love Xmonad but
10:04:33 <Guest14> still.
10:06:26 <Guest14> in floating wm/de there is only one thing going at a time that user is engaging with.
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10:09:53 <mc47> I guess it's the same story as "Vim/emacs Vs. the rest"
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10:11:21 <Guest14> mc47 window is never sort of right size, either too big or too small and never centered. I feel window/workspace organization is nice in TWM but focus/eye rest is better in Floating WM
10:11:39 <Guest14> all windows flat
10:12:10 <Guest14> it has pros that's why I am sticking to it I think
10:12:55 <mc47> it's a personal preference, my eyes likes where xmonad puts my windows :))
10:13:00 <Guest14> but every once in a while I use floating de/wm and see the reduction in cognitive overhead and easier ability to focus, instead of fidgeting between workspaces
10:13:39 <mc47> I end-up pulling my hair off when I boot into windows to game a bit lol
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10:14:20 <Guest14> mc47 yeah, as soon as you start trying to manage windows, floating wm is crap
10:14:28 <Guest14> then I feel why I am on Xmonad
10:14:41 <Guest14> mc47 you mean master/stack layout (the one you like)?
10:15:24 <mc47> that's what I use 80% of the time, and it does the job just right
10:15:29 <Guest14> I guess there's very little feedback in tiling WM, where as in modern DE you get visual preview etc
10:15:40 <Guest14> *visual feedback
10:15:47 <Guest14> when switching windows
10:15:49 <mc47> what do you mean with visual preview?
10:17:00 <Guest14> switching between 3 applications I can just alt tab and release the key when I see preview of window, where in tiling wm I have to either remember the workspace or mod + j k until my window is highlighter with border (little visual difference)
10:17:07 <Guest14> you get what I am trying to say?
10:17:34 <Guest14> so 2 windows in stack is good I think, more is just mess
10:17:47 <mc47> I see what you mean
10:18:21 <mc47> nothing inherent about tiling window managers stop you from doing that, except that no one bothered to implement it
10:18:28 <Guest14> also titlebars, I feel windows in TWM are naked, all look similar except the content
10:18:47 <mc47> pretty sure you could add titlebars
10:18:49 <Guest14> title attached to window with bar sorta makes it complete
10:19:03 <Guest14> anyways, just rambling
10:19:29 <Guest14> mc47 thanks for listening
10:19:50 <Guest14> mc47 I think you said you use mate + xmonad or kde + xmonad
10:19:52 <Guest14> or wasn't you
10:20:01 <Guest14> when I asked earlier few days ago
10:20:10 <mc47> it was a nice discussion
10:20:12 <mc47> kde+xmonad
10:20:24 <mc47> and it was yesterday :D
10:21:56 <Guest14> what parts of kde you find useful for using it together with xmonad? Status bar/menu?
10:22:01 <Solid> Guest14: there's nothing stopping you from only using the Full layout =)
10:23:27 <mc47> Guest14 tbh I just liked accessing the system settings, and didn't want to fiddle with power-management alone
10:23:31 <mc47> pretty sure I don't need KDE
10:23:42 <Guest14> Solid yeah I guess but full layout for every app is not good either, sometimes it just needs to be it's size, otherwise it's stretched out too wide. You know, exact size of window where my eyes can fit to it.
10:23:57 <Guest14> mc47 oh makes sense, thanks!
10:24:01 <mc47> I just thought "let me try xmonad" and i've been here ever since
10:24:05 <Guest14> Solid checked nixos by any chance?
10:24:24 <Guest14> mc47 yeah, XMonad/dwm is where WM hopping stops
10:24:41 <Solid> still don't have access to that machine, sorry :(
10:25:36 <Guest14> no probs, I never seen such shitty bug.
10:25:46 <Guest14> it's 3rd day I think I am trying to fix it
10:26:04 <Guest14> it's beyond my level of knowledge
10:26:41 <Solid> btw, for what's it's worth: I feel _less_ cognitive load when using a tiler because I know exactly where new windows will appear
10:26:45 <Solid> no surprises
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10:28:28 <Guest14> Solid in floating wm, applications have nice sizes by default, firefox/vscode always full when opened, konsole 80x20 I think? and many more. just saying.
10:29:17 <Solid> but do I want that to always happen?
10:29:32 <Solid> I can think of plenty of circumstances where I don't want to open Emacs in fullscreen mode
10:29:40 <Solid> and where I do want a fullscreen terminal
10:30:09 <Solid> and applications "remembering" their last used size was always a source or great annoyance for me when I still used floaters
10:30:32 <Guest14> Solid fair enough. I think when using TWM you have to stick to its philosophy. everything organized/predefined. from placement to size and workspaces
10:31:12 <Guest14> I think that's my issue, just opening up bunch of stuff in workspaces
10:35:36 <Guest14> Solid I saw your rice, gonna copy/learn bunch of stuff from yours and Lisknis.
10:38:12 <Solid> I hope it'll help you out :)
10:38:51 <Guest14> (y)
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11:27:04 <Liskni_si> I only skimmed the discussion but I can relate to the cognitive load of dynamic tiling
11:27:16 <Liskni_si> I use the tiling layer a lot, actually
11:29:30 <Liskni_si> the customizability of xmonad coupled with the fact that having three terminals per workspace is what I usually do (and having three windows tiled is what I often end up with even in Win10) still makes it worth it for me, more than any other wm
11:40:49 <Liskni_si> mc47: also re #450, I don't mind being nudged from time to time; these last days/weeks I'm quite unable to get myself to do anything :-/
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15:04:53 <mc47> am I the only one who thinks using `case fromMessage m of ... ` is better than using pattern guards `|Just .. <- fromMessage m ... ` in the layouts?
15:05:13 <mc47> Liskni_si I just wanted to make sure it's not forgotten ;)
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19:25:55 <geekosaur> ugh. Haskell Foundation is making noises about the wiki again; we may need to relocate our stuff soonish
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21:27:05 <Liskni_si> Anything particular or just the summary on Discourse?
21:30:07 <Liskni_si> (I didn't mention it but I had a call with Andrew, the executive director of HF, a week or so ago. He was interested in how the various projects in the ecosystem are doing. There aren't any real results from that. He mentioned some sort of matchmaking services between projects and people who want to contribute but nothing concrete so it didn't sound very relevant yet.)
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All times are in UTC on 2021-03-19.