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Logs on 2021-04-08 (freenode/#xmonad)

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05:51:11 <Solid> mc47[m]: would you care to expand on the "hakyll is discouraging for anyone to contribute"?
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06:03:34 <Solid> Liskni_si: sorry about #505 >.> I would force push the fix but I think a little too much time has passed
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07:13:00 <mc47[m]> Solid it's too big for what it does, and it's really hard to justify it
07:13:56 <mc47[m]> Basically the hakyll file will be only rarely tweaked, and people would edit the actual pages
07:14:57 <mc47[m]> Requiring them to build the whole thing just to be able to preview the changes is not justified, especially when there are smaller tools that do the same thing
07:15:26 <mc47[m]> And that are pretty small and self-contained
07:16:20 <Solid> oooh I thought you meant the project itself was discouraging contributions
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07:18:48 <mc47[m]> Oh I can see the confusion, I updated the comments
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07:19:37 <mc47[m]> It's really a bummer, hakyll is quite clever in what it does and nice to use
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07:20:17 <Solid> :(
07:22:06 <mc47[m]> I'm still gonna use it for my personal website probably, since I'll build everything on my own machine so it only takes a few seconds
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07:23:44 <mc47[m]> Well, that seems to be a problem with Haskell... I remember I wanted to play with Haskell IDE Engine, but if you compile the thing from source, you'd need to recompile it for every ghc version of any project you want to try it on
07:24:53 <mc47[m]> And it takes... a while. The first time I did it, the build failed after around 40 minutes, because my 8 GB of ram weren't enough
07:25:24 <Solid> I just use my system's ghc everywhere
07:25:28 <Solid> so I just build everything once
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07:27:42 <mc47[m]> Is stack smart enough so when I put the same resolver, it only builds things once?
07:29:02 <Solid> yes
07:30:13 <mc47[m]> That's cool
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08:17:24 <Liskni_si> I wish Stack was also "smart enough" to support using precompiled binaries somehow
08:18:10 <Liskni_si> what's the point of everyone rebuilding all the LTS packages from source, possibly again and again every week?
08:21:24 <Solid> you mean of the whole executable?
08:21:48 <Liskni_si> No, the deps.
08:22:44 <Solid> like stack pulls their own precompiled binaries from stackage instead of pulling the sources?
08:22:47 <Liskni_si> I just want to do "apt install libghc-pandoc-dev-lts-16" and never have to rebuild it every again.
08:22:58 <Solid> ah I see
08:24:07 <Liskni_si> I can do "apt install libghc-pandoc-dev" now, but then I'm limited to whatever version the debian maintainers happen to have packaged, and I can't use cabal/stack to build the rest
08:24:37 <Liskni_si> I wish there was an apt repo with (meta)packages of multiple LTS versions, and for stack/cabal or whatever tool to support building on top of that
08:25:32 <Liskni_si> shouldn't be all that hard to do the apt repo part actually, I'm a bit surprised it hasn't been done yet
08:25:51 <Liskni_si> maybe I should propose that on the haskell discourse or something
08:27:04 <Solid> oh that reminds me to set up proper mail integration for that discourse
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09:11:55 <Solid> Is there a module to pretty-print keymasks and -codes?
09:13:18 <Solid> Like a pseudo-inverse to EZConfig: `ppKey :: (KeyMask, Keycode) -> String`, `ppKey (0, 97) == "a"` or something
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10:32:14 <psibi[m]> pandoc seems to be shipping binaries, probably that can be used: https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/releases/tag/2.13 (Sorry if that was already discussed!)
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10:34:37 <psibi[m]> I guess if it's for compiling hakyll, there is no easy way. My personal website is built via hakyll and I really want to move away from it because of the huge compile time.
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10:50:29 <Liskni_si> psibi[m]: pandoc's binaries don't help us, hakyll compiles against pandoc as a library
10:50:36 <Liskni_si> (just as GenerateManpage does/did)
10:51:57 <psibi[m]> Ah, right. That's unfortunate.
10:52:33 <Liskni_si> (dependencies are huge pain in the ass in most language ecosystems, but in Haskell they happen to be even worse than in most other)
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10:54:20 <Liskni_si> which reminds me that these discussions probably make it easier for me to decide that I want genmanpage variant A :-)
10:55:46 <Liskni_si> I was a bit torn before, as peti's arguments made sense and both variants' implementations were ugly in one way or another, but this half an hour of compiling issue is just fucked up (and yeah, I feel like it might drive me off Haskell sooner or later)
10:58:02 <Liskni_si> oh and xscreensaver 6.0 was released, and it should no longer be crashable by faulty keyboards, so Solid can continue recommending it in the tutorial and geekosaur can restore his faith in jwz :-)
10:59:15 <Solid> \o/
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10:59:53 <Solid> > (and yeah, I feel like it might drive me off Haskell sooner or later)
10:59:54 <Solid> D:
10:59:54 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: yeah :: t9 Boolerror:
10:59:54 <lambdabot> Data constructor not in scope:
10:59:55 <lambdabot> I :: t0
11:00:01 <Solid> lol
11:00:07 <Solid> I'm sorry lambdabot
11:01:10 <Liskni_si> maybe it's not really "drive away from Haskell" but rather "shift weights in the decision process whether use of Haskell is a good trade-off"
11:02:42 <Liskni_si> I woke up today with an irresistible urge to rewrite some of my little web hacks (rss generators and some api translators) from Haskell to Python because I can no longer be bothered to fight the build system
11:03:16 <Liskni_si> I needed a short break from xmonad anyway :-)
11:04:11 <CosmosAtlas> I might miss a bit of the earlier discussion. But how did you setup your Haskell environment?
11:04:53 <CosmosAtlas> I once had many problems with that too. Then I switched to the "suggested" way of setting up Haskell/Stack/Cabal such without using system package manager. Never had a problem since.
11:05:24 <Liskni_si> CosmosAtlas: the missing discussion is logged here: https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/xmonad
11:05:32 <CosmosAtlas> IIRC, the huge big problem at that time (a few years ago) was everything either changed from dynamically linked to statically linked (or the other way around) on ArchLinux
11:05:52 <Solid> well, haskell to python surely is a switch of paradigms =)
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11:06:14 <Liskni_si> CosmosAtlas: tldr is that we were talking about using hakyll for the website which meant that rebuilding the website in github actions takes almost an hour
11:06:34 <Liskni_si> compared to jekyll which is integrated in github pages and rebuilds the site in seconds
11:07:06 <CosmosAtlas> Ahh. I guess my points are irrelevant then. Thanks for the tip.
11:07:17 <Liskni_si> but yeah, the static/dynamic is a factor in my decision: I recently configured stack to build dynamically linked stuff, but this means that I can no longer scp binaries to my server and run them there
11:07:59 <Liskni_si> and with just 2G RAM on it, GHC takes _ages_ there
11:08:14 <Liskni_si> sure, I can tell stack to build a static binary
11:08:26 <Solid> but it's a server so build times don't matter :>
11:08:56 <Liskni_si> but for a toy project that is either 100 lines of Haskell or 100 lines of Python or 100 lines of something, it's just madness to waste all this time fighting the build system instead of just having "fun" coding
11:09:22 <Liskni_si> Solid: it's not just time, it also purges all caches and makes my imap server unbearably slow
11:09:30 <Solid> ah I see
11:10:01 Solid can't have fun with python :(
11:11:18 <Liskni_si> yeah, I really miss the types and the instant feedback from ghcid
11:11:41 <Liskni_si> but I'm so irritated by the build process… :-/
11:12:12 <Liskni_si> anyway, I'll see in a couple years, when new libraries break my code and I'll need to maintain it somehow
11:12:39 <Liskni_si> writing Python is acceptable, maintaining old Python is something I have yet to discover :-)
11:13:35 <Liskni_si> with xmonad the tradeoff is still good I think, btw: there are few big deps and the types really do help as it's a large-ish codebase
11:13:57 <Liskni_si> (I need to go now, lunch and life and stuff)
11:15:53 <Solid> have fun with that :)
11:16:23 <Solid> I dunno, I just can't really get over having no types with these kinds of languages
11:16:35 <Solid> LISPs are kind of acceptable because they just so interactive
11:16:47 <Solid> but even then it's all write-only code for me :/
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11:17:44 <Solid> then again what I _really_ want to do is write mathematics that compiles and does useful things :>
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11:46:54 <Liskni_si> I just want "useful things" :-)
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13:18:25 <psibi[m]> Reg the "drive away from Haskell" part, I have moved away from xmobar... I have been using my own personal fork of cnx (with a number of xmobar features that I use re-implemented)
13:19:06 <psibi[m]> The good things is my cpu consumption time for the status bar has reduced.
13:19:15 <psibi[m]> It used to be 4 hours before.
13:19:39 <psibi[m]> Now it's like 10 seconds. (for a day's usage). Although, it's kind of unfair comparing cnx and xmobar!
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14:20:07 <Solid> I don't think it's the fault of haskell that xmobar is so resource heavy
14:20:32 <Solid> see xmonad, which should ostensibly do a lot more and yet consumes _much_ less memory
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15:14:33 <Liskni_si> Well we don't really know what's the problem with xmobar. :-/
15:16:31 <Liskni_si> But in my setup it's not bad enough (compared to the browser and other things), so I can't really justify spending any more time on it.
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15:34:24 <Solid> yeah with an open browser this all becomes sort of meaningless
15:34:36 <Solid> xmobar is just so hackable that it's worth it for me
15:41:56 <psibi[m]> I think xmobar's event loop is where the inefficiency is (inspite of excellent work from Liskni on optimizing it). And I don't see an easy way to fix it. cnx kind of avoids it totally by using tokio which is highly optimized and we don't wake up there every 10 seconds or so. But yeah, I agree that xmobar is still quite good compared to various other things running in your browser.
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15:59:37 <Liskni_si> Yeah that might be it. Running multiple threads and synchronizing between them is definitely wasteful if all you need is to show the clock and maybe refresh a few widgets that don't need any async work at all.
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17:11:26 <geekosaur> hm. has anyone tried git xmonad with the 9.2 rc yet?
17:11:33 <geekosaur> or are we missing some deps
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17:26:11 <Liskni_si> X11-xft will almost definitely break as it has a rather strict base upper bound
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17:26:49 <Liskni_si> if you tell stack to ignore that bound, then it might work, maybe
17:27:01 <Liskni_si> (not sure if cabal can ignore bounds)
17:27:50 <geekosaur> it has --allow-newer, yes
17:28:07 <geekosaur> and --allow-older
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17:28:54 <geekosaur> can even drop that in cabal.project to specify it for one component
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19:11:29 × ericsagn1 quits (~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:ea09:d4ec:d157:6a0d) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
19:21:47 × dariof4 quits (~dario@217.171.66.53) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
19:22:23 → dariof4 joins (~dario@217.171.66.53)
19:23:43 → ericsagn1 joins (~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:889c:8645:b190:195f)
19:26:40 → notis joins (~notis@213.16.157.14.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr)
20:04:12 × mc47 quits (~yecinem@196.179.186.155) (Remote host closed the connection)
20:04:34 → mc47 joins (~yecinem@196.179.186.155)
20:10:59 × srk quits (~sorki@unaffiliated/srk) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
20:23:47 × geekosaur quits (82650c7a@130.101.12.122) (Quit: Connection closed)
20:41:54 × davemq quits (~davemq@99-179-0-50.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20:42:27 → davemq joins (~davemq@99-179-0-50.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net)
20:44:58 × davemq quits (~davemq@99-179-0-50.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20:45:30 → davemq joins (~davemq@99-179-0-50.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net)
20:46:20 × mc47 quits (~yecinem@196.179.186.155) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20:46:53 → mc47 joins (~yecinem@196.179.186.155)
20:57:39 × davemq quits (~davemq@99-179-0-50.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20:57:57 → davemq joins (~davemq@99-179-0-50.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net)
20:58:41 × mc47 quits (~yecinem@196.179.186.155) (Remote host closed the connection)
20:58:50 → mc47 joins (~yecinem@196.179.186.155)
20:59:11 × mc47 quits (~yecinem@196.179.186.155) (Client Quit)
21:20:32 → Habib joins (~Habib@185.169.233.238)
22:05:48 × ericsagn1 quits (~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:889c:8645:b190:195f) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
22:08:48 × davemq quits (~davemq@99-179-0-50.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
22:10:02 → davemq joins (~davemq@99-179-0-50.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net)
22:17:36 → ericsagn1 joins (~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:e26e:cf9:1dd6:9615)
22:18:44 × davemq quits (~davemq@99-179-0-50.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
22:20:34 → davemq joins (~davemq@99-179-0-50.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net)
22:30:17 × davemq quits (~davemq@99-179-0-50.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
22:31:36 → davemq joins (~davemq@99-179-0-50.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net)
22:34:48 → cyr4x3 joins (~cyr4x3@139.47.125.51)
22:35:07 ← Habib parts (~Habib@185.169.233.238) ()
22:35:13 × cyr4x3 quits (~cyr4x3@139.47.125.51) (Client Quit)
22:51:01 × davemq quits (~davemq@99-179-0-50.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
22:52:35 → davemq joins (~davemq@99-179-0-50.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net)
23:04:02 × seschwar quits (~seschwar@unaffiliated/seschwar) (Quit: :wq)
23:11:47 × notis quits (~notis@213.16.157.14.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)

All times are in UTC on 2021-04-08.