Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2021-05-21 (liberachat/#haskell)

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08:57:17 <pe200012> > print
08:57:19 <lambdabot> <() -> IO ()>
08:57:38 <pe200012> > print 1
08:57:40 <lambdabot> <IO ()>
08:57:54 <pe200012> > (+1) <$> [1.10 ^ 10]
08:57:56 <lambdabot> [3.593742460100002]
08:57:56 dminuoso prepares his MMR answer card for pe200012
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09:34:55 <python476> o/
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09:37:39 <bjs> Wonder how many left on the other network are just perpetual AFK
09:37:40 <bjs> I spy a jmct
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10:02:20 <[exa]> bjs: a lot
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10:24:52 <boxscape> yay just got my first ghc commit merged
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10:34:37 <cjay> nice
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10:53:02 <tomsmeding> 🎉
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10:54:30 <Hecate> hurray boxscape
10:54:37 <boxscape> :)
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10:57:26 <prop> i was surprised at how quickly certain names were taken
10:57:30 <prop> i wanted to take my forename
10:57:32 <prop> but no chance
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10:57:35 <prop> or middle name, no chance
10:57:43 <Hecate> I have a question that may sound like cargo culting, but would it be preferable to chain functions, or to call the next one inside the previous one?
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10:57:57 <prop> what do you mean hecate?
10:58:03 <Hecate> so, chaining functions
10:58:10 <Hecate> foo >== bar >== baz
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10:58:41 <boxscape> as in (flip .)?
10:58:42 <Hecate> or foo x = bar x ; bar y = baz y
10:58:47 <boxscape> as in (flip (.))?*
10:58:51 <Taneb> Hecate: I'd say chaining functions here
10:59:00 <Hecate> (with a meaningful transformation of the argument inside each function, I'm not just inlining)
10:59:14 <Hecate> Taneb: ok :) That's what I thought
10:59:21 <Taneb> It means you can re-use them or test them individually easier
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10:59:26 <Hecate> yup
10:59:39 <Hecate> yeah I guess continuations have some legit usage at a lower-level
10:59:46 <prop> ooooh you mean to compose or write the call inside the function
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11:00:21 <Hecate> yep
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11:01:05 <prop> i think sometimes for recursive functions at least, it is better to leave it with its fixed point argument
11:01:18 <prop> the reason being is that there are caching libraries that can use the fixed point argument if i remember correctly
11:01:31 <prop> but this depends on the situation ofc as to whether it matters
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11:01:49 <Hecate> oki doki!
11:02:10 <dminuoso> Hecate: Personally Im quite fond of binding things in where clauses
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11:03:05 <dminuoso> Function composition is more useful when the composition itself has interesting structure, properties or reuse value
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11:04:07 <Hecate> I'm not sure what you suggest applies in the question I was asking (composition/piping vs continuations) although I am indeed fond of where clauses myself
11:04:14 <maerwald> yeah, I also use $ more than ., unless . somehow feels right
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11:04:43 <boxscape> don't tell ski
11:04:57 <dminuoso> Hecate: well, its a sort of in between. rather than writing `foo (bar (quux x))` I might write `f = foo special where special = bar (quux x)`
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11:05:21 <dminuoso> Its hard to put into words, it largely depends on whether I want to put the focus and naming of things on the value itself, or the function.
11:05:31 <Hecate> dminuoso: yeah that's still composition :3 at a lower-leve/codegen I doubt it changes much
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11:05:52 <boxscape> Oh is that what the question was about? I had assumed it was about readability
11:06:04 <dminuoso> XY territory now. :)
11:06:26 <prop> ? am confused too ?
11:06:40 <Hecate> Taneb had a great point about testability in favour of chaining functions
11:07:02 <Hecate> so I'll stick with chaining
11:07:09 <Hecate> and will leave continuations to the compiler
11:07:14 <dminuoso> Im quite confused now.
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11:08:25 <dminuoso> Hecate: What, to you, is the difference between "chaining functions" and "calling the next one inside the previous one"?
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11:08:38 <dminuoso> Your pseudo code examples don't parse in my head
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11:10:02 <Hecate> at the code level, function composition is flat
11:10:13 <prop> personally i try to leave everything as point free as i can, but i think it is just a matter of taste really
11:10:25 <prop> it is what you like?
11:10:44 <dminuoso> "flat"?
11:10:45 <Hecate> whereas with calling the next one inside the previous one, you call one function in your call-site, and this function will call the rest of the functions for you
11:10:51 <__monty__> dminuoso: `f . g` vs `f x = something (g x)`
11:11:09 <__monty__> Where the first f would be `f = something`.
11:11:13 <dminuoso> __monty__: Yeah Im not sure, they sound.. confused..
11:11:21 <Hecate> let me write a pastebin
11:13:03 <Hecate> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/S7s8xhmO dminuoso
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11:13:37 <dminuoso> So first, those are not continuations.
11:13:41 <Hecate> ah, great
11:13:44 <prop> when should i use haskell.nix or cabal2nix? i'm annoyed at not having the right system dependencies like C libraries on different machines. also if i use nix can i run haskell binaries on other computers?
11:13:51 <dminuoso> Secondly, you seem to be mixing monad bind and function call here.
11:14:01 <dminuoso> So Im still not sure what you are asking about, exactly
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11:14:11 <dminuoso> Function composition is (.), not (>>=)
11:14:21 <dminuoso> The monadic equivalent of function composition is (>=>/<=<)
11:14:24 <Hecate> prop: cabal2nix and haskell.nix are when you want nix to handle your haskell dependencies
11:14:42 <Hecate> prop: for system deps like C libraries, just write a shell.nix
11:14:54 <Hecate> prop: or use stack with nix support in the stack.yaml
11:15:03 <dminuoso> prop: Broadly, callCabal2Nix is closer to stack where you have curated versions, and haskell.nix gives you wider freedom in picking versions.
11:15:11 <dminuoso> (though haskell.nix has a lot of other tooling around it)
11:15:35 <prop> i often run out of memory compiling dependencies on other machines, does this mean i don't have to recompile dependencies?
11:15:40 <prop> i'm confused sorry
11:15:41 <dminuoso> and in fact, nixpkgs is closely aligned with stack resolvers, so depending on your needs that might be too tight.
11:15:44 <prop> like text and stuff
11:16:12 <Hecate> dminuoso: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/hV3B01OO
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11:16:27 <Hecate> See the difference? :-P
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11:17:03 <__monty__> prop: Fwiw, I don't think haskell.nix has good (any?) UI around providing external deps yet. The question has come up a bunch recently.
11:18:09 <Hecate> dminuoso: I realise I must have been confused by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation-passing_style#CPS_in_Haskell
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11:18:24 <dminuoso> prop: and regarding cross compilation, this is one of the reasons haskell.nix exists in the first place. its an extreme PITA to do cross compilation with (call)cabal2nix
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11:19:58 <dminuoso> prop: If you just want to cross compile for a single target, its not an issue though.
11:20:12 <dminuoso> but if you want to have a matrix of targets, then you will want to start with haskell.nix right off the bat
11:20:42 <prop> what do you mean by cross compile for a single target? i'd like it to run on mac os because my friend has that and also fedora because that's my laptop and ubuntu because that's my server
11:21:09 <dminuoso> say you want to ship a binary for various combiations of os/arch/flags
11:21:30 <dminuoso> See https://input-output-hk.github.io/haskell.nix/motivation/
11:21:41 <__monty__> Tbh, I'd say go with haskell.nix from the start regardless. You do have to expect some learning curve though.
11:21:56 <dminuoso> personally Im quite happy with callCabal2nix so far.
11:22:19 <dminuoso> but my packages happen to compile with stackage resolver versions..
11:22:32 <dminuoso> And I dont mind the other issues that spawned haskell.nix, so..
11:24:48 <prop> what exactly is in the binary cache? is it just GHC or do i get the packages i rely upon built for free?
11:24:54 <prop> sorry if it is a bad question
11:25:07 <__monty__> With Nixpkgs infra packages are built.
11:25:22 <__monty__> With haskell.nix you get less caching.
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11:27:54 <prop> ahh so haskell.nix is to make sure that you can actually build it across multiple platforms. then cabal2nix is for building the same package on the same linux distro, possibly speeding it up?
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11:28:33 <__monty__> No.
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11:29:32 <__monty__> Nixpkgs builds a mix of stackage and hackage. Haskell.nix provides a lot more flexibility. Consequence of that is that it's easy to deviate from what's in the cache, which means you can end up building more stuff.
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11:30:27 <dminuoso> prop: Roughly, cabal2nix turns a single cabal file straight into a nix derivation
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11:30:41 <dminuoso> prop: haskell.nix however, rather turns a cabal build plan into a nix derivation, amongst other things.
11:31:43 <dminuoso> The reason cabal2nix works at all this way, is because in nixpkgs you have - like in stackage resolvers - only one version for each package available in nixpkgs
11:32:06 <__monty__> Reason I switched to haskell.nix is I got tired of manually overriding package versions and the like.
11:32:19 <dminuoso> so if you want to fiddle with constraints, that means you start overlaying for each darn package, and that becomes a lot of work.
11:32:28 <__monty__> Exactly.
11:33:00 <__monty__> If you use a significant number of packages that aren't in stackage you run into that sooner rather than later.
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11:34:15 <prop> hmm, it sounds pretty complex thanks. i think i'll go with haskell.nix so i can fiddle
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11:35:06 <dminuoso> __monty__: Here's my favourite issue: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/26561
11:35:08 <dminuoso> :P
11:37:51 <maerwald> that sums up nix overall
11:38:04 <maerwald> rabbit holes of complexity
11:38:29 <dminuoso> Yeah, it is quite representative for nix.
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11:47:03 <prop> could the compiler serialise modules and cache that? say you don't have to type check or anything, just do codegen and stuff
11:47:11 <prop> it seems like a lot of effort though :|
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11:57:06 <merijn> prop: Metadata is serialised already
11:57:20 <merijn> prop: Or you meant *inside* Nix?
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11:59:07 <prop> it probably already does. i was wondering if you actually need to parse a package like text's source code and type check, desugar, or if you just get core with some metadata
11:59:22 <prop> don't worry i'll look it up
11:59:26 <prop> i'm sure the internet has answers
12:00:06 <merijn> prop: GHC builds regular libraries (same you'd get from C/C++/etc.), but the package database also has metadata (module names, types of exported symbols, etc.)
12:00:29 <prop> thank you :)))
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12:00:33 <merijn> prop: For inlinable functions it also has preprocessed source to implement inlining while compiling other packages
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12:27:28 <haskman> Do we have a good frictionless online haskell environment?
12:27:57 <Taneb> haskman: what do you mean by online haskell environment here?
12:28:03 <dminuoso> And what do you mean by frictionless?
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12:28:35 <haskman> Purescript has something like this - https://try.purescript.org
12:28:58 <haskman> Something that allows me to write code in a module and run it without registrations etc
12:29:07 <haskman> Try Haskell is ofcourse pretty basic
12:29:14 <Taneb> Hmm, I'm not aware of something like that
12:29:37 <maerwald> I'm starting to like viewpatterns as way to avoid a few let bindings
12:29:42 <haskman> Typescript has a fantastic environment -https://www.typescriptlang.org/play
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12:30:16 <python476> purescript is very tempting
12:30:17 <haskman> So does ReasonML - https://reasonml.github.io/en/try
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12:30:29 <python476> the tutorials are very appealing
12:30:45 <haskman> Purescript is great!
12:30:47 <Taneb> haskman: I note that Purescript and Typescript (I'm not sure about ReasonML) are both designed to compile to JavaScript, and Haskell is not (although it can be)
12:30:57 <python476> you made apps in it haskman ?
12:31:16 <aweinstock> tryhaskell.org looks like it uses hint instead of ghci, and seems to support evaluating expressions, but not commands like :type or :browse
12:31:19 <haskman> Yea I've used both Haskell and PS in production several times now
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12:32:21 <haskman> Taneb: the JS backend definitely helps, but I feel the community should have something similar working for Haskell as well
12:33:22 <haskman> aweinstock: Yeah while an online repl is nice, having the ability to create a complete module is invaluable
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12:40:00 <boxscape> is there an indexed monad package designed to work with QualifiedDo?
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12:42:12 <boxscape> realistically I probably won't use it because I'm trying to write a script that works with vanilla ghc but I'm curious
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12:47:50 <arahael> How does one parse a hamlet file (Ie, Yesod Hamlet), into HTML?
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12:55:16 <arahael> The trouble I have is that I can get a `Q Exp`, and then I have no idea what to do with it.
12:56:56 <xerox> arahael: along the lines of renderHtmlBuilder $(shamletFile "../foo.hamlet")
12:58:03 <arahael> xerox: How did you find that?
12:58:30 <xerox> https://github.com/search?q=shamletFile&type=code (:
12:59:26 <arahael> Hmm, ok, so I'm now wondering how that works... Is the '$(...)' bit a quasi-quoter or something?
12:59:40 <xerox> yeah
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13:00:18 <xerox> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/template_haskell.html
13:00:24 <xerox> called a "splice" apparently
13:00:33 <nsilv> it's a splice, it basically expands the (Q a) into an a at compile time
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13:01:17 <arahael> Interesting. And I can't do it at runtime?
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13:02:15 <nsilv> in this case, you're rendering the html at runtime, but constructing the builder (based on the hamlet file) at compile time (cause you're effectively including it at compile time inside your code, and then you're expanding it into generated haskell code)
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13:03:02 <arahael> nsilv: Yeah. I was hoping to read the hamlet at runtime.
13:03:22 <nsilv> arahael: and I don't think you can do it exclusively at runtime because iirc hamlet can embed haskell code inside and it gets typeh checked
13:03:40 <arahael> Hmm. So I probalby don't want hamlet, then. I should use a different templating system.
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13:04:41 <nsilv> arahael: maybe something like https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ginger ?
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13:07:17 <arahael> nsilv: Ginger looks ideal :) And familiar, as well, although I note it doesn't say it's "feature complete".
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13:08:49 <arahael> nsilv: And it's written by our very own tdammers, too. :)
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13:09:12 <arahael> I'll have to give it a play soon. For now, though, bed time. 11pm and all.
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13:10:09 <xerox> arahael: looks like you can, the shakespeare module does provide runtime facilities https://hackage.haskell.org/package/shakespeare-2.0.25/docs/Text-Hamlet-Runtime.html
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13:12:46 <nsilv> ah i guess it does have some limitations tho. which makes sense
13:13:32 <arahael> xerox: That might be useful and what I want.
13:14:05 <xerox> just don't get fooled by the word limitations, you can't do those things without compile time parsing no matter which package
13:14:11 <arahael> xerox: I'll probably try that one first, then again, ginger would let me define filters and stuff...
13:14:36 <arahael> But filters probably dont' belong in a template anyway.
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13:14:54 <xerox> what are you making?
13:14:59 <arahael> Just generating a static site.
13:15:23 <xerox> I was looking at options for building web services in haskell myself so I got interested in the question
13:15:50 <arahael> So I want to make an exe, which just parses a bunch of templates and spits out something that it shoves into an S3 bucket or something to serve the site from that.
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13:16:31 <arahael> I _could_ just use the splices, but I'd rather be able to regenerate the site *quickly* every time I make a small change.
13:17:21 <shiraeeshi> arahael: you fit into free quota for s3?
13:18:13 <arahael> shiraeeshi: No, but s3 is cheap.
13:18:27 <arahael> shiraeeshi: The free quota is only for the first year.
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13:21:44 <arahael> xerox: There are loads of static website generators, but it turns out it's fairly easy to just make one yourself. And I hate how most of them are either badly documented, or a fragile npm mess.
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13:22:21 <xerox> arahael: go for it!
13:23:02 <xerox> shouldn't be infinitely hard to swap the markup language and/or allow multiple ones anyway
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13:24:14 <arahael> xerox: Yeah, I'm basically implementing something jekyll inspired. So, using restructured text with yaml frontmatter (I wanted to use dhall, but yaml turns out to be simpler), and now just need to get the "site" up so that I have something to include these restructured texts in.
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13:25:04 <arahael> Entire haskell implemetnation is currently less than 70 lines. I can't imagine it getting to be more than say, 200, once I've implemented all the rules I want in it.
13:25:34 <arahael> Though I imagine that if it works out, it'll only grow. :(
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13:27:00 <arahael> G'night! And thanks for the help, both of you!
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13:28:21 <xerox> nighto
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13:39:08 <carbolymer> why am I getting "record update is ambiguous, and requires a type signature" error? can record update change record type?
13:39:25 <carbolymer> in my case record isn't parameterized
13:39:34 <carter> If field is polymorphic?
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13:39:50 <carter> Or maybe record isn’t typed enough?
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13:41:25 <carbolymer> no, field isn't polymorphic; also record is a regular data type i.e. data Foo = Foo{ ... }
13:41:43 <carbolymer> so I don't see any degrees of freedom there
13:41:59 <merijn> Code + error :)
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13:43:34 <pe200012> maybe you accidently enable ext DuplicateRecordFields?
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13:44:09 carbolymer checks cabal
13:44:12 <carbolymer> yep I have that
13:44:30 <merijn> "So don't do that, then" ;)
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13:44:49 <carbolymer> TOTALLY MAKES SENSE NOW, EVERYTHING HAS BECOME CLEAR NOW
13:44:52 <carbolymer> :)
13:45:09 arahael likes that extension.
13:45:19 <carbolymer> yeah, it's useful
13:45:21 <merijn> arahael: Every person has flaws ;)
13:45:34 <arahael> merijn: I'm deeply flawed. :)
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13:45:54 <carbolymer> like a semiconductor, flaws make perfection
13:46:05 <arahael> Heh. Now, I must try getting to bed for teh second time!
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14:09:07 <dmwit> dminuoso: Thanks!
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15:13:34 <teddyc> simplest way to get this function? True -> 1, False -> 0
15:13:49 <teddyc> if bool then 1 else 0
15:13:55 <teddyc> is what im thinking now
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15:14:24 <c_wraith> > fromEnum True
15:14:25 <lambdabot> 1
15:14:32 <c_wraith> yeah, that should work
15:14:47 <teddyc> ah, nice. thanks!
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15:34:44 <ski> Hecate : i'd say the answer to your question is "it depends". (and yes, what you showed in the pastes wasn't Continuation-Passing Style. your "Continuation" alternative, i might perhaps call (not syntactically, in this case) "(internally) nested", as opposed to "(externally) composed")
15:35:22 <Hecate> ski: great, thanks for the vocabulary :)
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15:37:10 <ski> (one might relate your examples to CPS in some ways, but neither of them directly expresses CPS, from what i can see)
15:37:12 <boxscape> is there a better way to do `parseNotes line = evalStateT parseHeader line <|> evalStateT parseRefs line`?
15:37:13 <boxscape> IIUC if I write `parseNotes = evalStateT (parseHeader <|> parseRefs)`, the state isn't restored if `parseHeader` fails.
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15:38:07 <ski> re "depends" .. it depends on what seems to be a more natural way to analyze the problem into subproblems (set up responsibilities, interfaces, separation of concerncs, &c.)
15:38:44 <boxscape> s/better/more idiomatic
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15:39:49 <ski> if each of the composands would seem to have a separate relevancy of its own, it would seem better to write it in the "composed" style (or at least to define each of the composands separately, even if also defining the nested compositions and things-on-their-own)
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15:40:50 <ski> sometimes, one can directly, or later, find other places in which to use such a composand (or find code which can be refactored to use it)
15:41:00 <boxscape> looking at the Alternative instance I actually don't understand why that's the case, it looks to me like it ought to restore the state
15:41:01 <boxscape> StateT m <|> StateT n = StateT $ \ s -> m s `mplus` n s
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15:41:38 <ski> but sometimes, one such composand doesn't really make much sense, in isolation from another part, and so it may make more sense to only define its composition with that other part (separately named or not)
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15:44:24 <ski> Hecate : .. not sure how much the above helps. would probably need to see more specific code (and perhaps also get an idea of the problem domain), to attempt to give more concrete suggestion
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15:44:50 <ski> boxscape : hm, can you confirm `mplus = (<|>)' for whatever parser you're using ?
15:45:33 <boxscape> ski it's just Either
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15:45:59 <boxscape> % f :: (Alternative m, MonadError () m, MonadState String m) => m String; f = (put "errorState" >> throwError ()) <|> get
15:45:59 <yahb> boxscape:
15:46:00 <boxscape> % flip evalState "origState" . runExceptT $ f
15:46:00 <yahb> boxscape: Right "errorState"
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15:46:15 <boxscape> it looks to me here like `get` should have received "origState"
15:46:17 <Hecate> ski: it does, thanks :)
15:46:22 <boxscape> I must be misunderstanding something
15:47:00 <boxscape> ski err wait I suppose it's ExceptT not Either, could be a different instance
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15:47:59 <ski> Hecate : CPS is about passing a function (a callback, called a "continuation") to your functions, and instead of giving back the result, your function will (as the last thing it does, in each branch) call this continuation callback with the result (so, technically, will return whatever the continuation returns, when passed what would otherwise be thought of as the result)
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15:48:53 <Hecate> ski: ok :) It's not just about nested calls but also passing the next call to the function
15:49:06 <Hecate> like, foo 1 baz
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15:52:29 <ski> Hecate : one reason to do CPS can be efficiency. another reason is that one can do "funny" things, like deviate from "calling the continuation argument last", in certain circumstances. it's a very powerful (and also a bit hard to reason about, understand) tool for doing "control effects". CPS is also related to "monadic style", by which we mean using `foo >>= \x -> bar x >>= \y -> baz x y'
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15:53:42 <boxscape> I actually don't really understand how Except has an Alternative instance, it looks like Identity would need one but it doesn't seem to have one
15:53:59 <ski> (e.g., in a language with continuation side-effects (not exactly the same as, but related to, CPS), (also you need state), given any implementation of a monad, you can "reflect" it into a corresponding side-effect. e.g. in SML/NJ, or Scheme, if you implement a parser monad, you can then reflect that into "parsing side-effects", as if the language had built-in support for keeping track of parsing under the
15:54:05 <ski> covers, similarly to how many languages have native support for exceptions)
15:54:13 <boxscape> oh wait, I might have misread the operator
15:54:46 <boxscape> yeah ExceptT's Alternative instance uses <*> instead of <|>, so it is different from it's MonadPlus instance
15:54:50 <ski> Hecate : here's an example of a `map' function, written in CPS :
15:55:13 <ski> mapCPS :: (a -> (b -> o) -> o) -> ([a] -> ([b] -> o) -> o)
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15:55:31 <ski> mapCPS f [ ] k = k []
15:56:06 <ski> mapCPS f (x:xs) k = f x $ \y ->
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15:56:15 <boxscape> (no sorry, that was wrong, I just got confused in where in the source code I was :)
15:56:22 <ski> map f xs $ \ys ->
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15:56:32 <ski> k (y:ys)
15:57:10 <ski> here's a function that works the same, but is written using the `Cont o' monad instead
15:57:31 <ski> mapCont :: (a -> Cont o b) -> ([a] -> Cont o [b])
15:57:42 <ski> mapCont f [ ] = return []
15:58:11 <ski> mapCont f (x:xs) = f x >>= \y ->
15:58:30 <ski> mapCont f xs >>= \ys ->
15:58:40 <ski> return (y:ys)
15:59:10 <ski> boxscape : links ?
15:59:26 <boxscape> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/transformers-0.5.6.2/docs/src/Control.Monad.Trans.Except.html#line-202
15:59:31 <boxscape> ctrl-f for MonadPlus to get the other one
15:59:37 <ski> (sorry, `map' in `mapCont' was of course meant to be `mapCont'. it should call itself recursively)
15:59:59 <boxscape> I completely misread the code for some reason, it just requires a Monoid instance for the errors, nothing for Identity
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16:01:15 <Hecate> ski: terrifying, but thanks! :D
16:02:16 <ski> boxscape : those look the same, to me
16:02:31 <boxscape> ski yeah they are
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16:12:25 <boxscape> tbh it looks like I should probably just be using catchError instead of <|>, my Error type doesn't have a sensible Monoid instance
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16:12:51 <boxscape> could use <|> if ExceptT didn't try to collect errors together with <|>/mplus
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16:14:25 <ski> Hecate : as you can see, `mapCont' is "nested" (in terms of a call to itself), similar to one of your examples (which i why i said it could be related to CPS in some way). also, sometimes one thinks of the right operand of `>>=' as a "continuation" (what to do after executing the action to the left). however, with "true CPS", one would never nest like `(foo >>= \x -> bar x) >>= \y -> baz y' (and so, wouldn't
16:14:31 <ski> write `fooBar >>= \y -> baz y', given the definition `fooBar = foo >>= \x -> bar x'), but always in the form `foo >>= \x -> (bar x >>= \y -> baz z)' (possibly naming `bar x >>= \y -> baz z', putting it in a definition of its own)
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16:15:49 <Hecate> I see
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16:15:59 <ski> Hecate : anyway, if you're interested, i could try to give some more explanation of what CPS is about .. but above, i merely wanted to give some rough idea of what it is (and is not)
16:16:03 <ski> @hackage managed
16:16:04 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/managed
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16:16:37 <ski> is a simple example of an (internal) use of CPS, so you can see one thing it's good for
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16:18:50 <ski> boxscape : hm, yea
16:19:07 <ski> (i'm still not clear on what difference you observed between your two alternative forms)
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16:22:47 <ski> continuations can be used to do "inversion of control". (one classic example is to do web forms where your program will be automagically resumed at the right place, when the user submits the form on the web page). can be used to implement cooperative concurrency. (in SML/NJ, with timer interrupts, are also used to implement preemptive concurrency.) can be used to implement backtracking (e.g. for parsers)
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16:24:24 <bbear> hello
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16:25:05 <boxscape> ski: I think the thing that actually confused me is that StateT and ExceptT are not commutative
16:25:07 <boxscape> % let f = (put "errorState" >> throwError ()) <|> get in runExceptT (evalStateT f "origState")
16:25:07 <yahb> boxscape: Right "origState"
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16:25:17 <boxscape> % let f = (put "errorState" >> throwError ()) <|> get in evalStateT (runExceptT f) "origState"
16:25:17 <yahb> boxscape: Right "errorState"
16:25:25 <boxscape> ski I thought I was using one of these but was using the other
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16:26:00 <ski> ah, makes sense
16:26:41 <ski> @unmtl StateT s (ExceptT e m) a
16:26:41 <lambdabot> s -> m (Either e (a, s))
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16:26:43 <ski> @unmtl ExceptT e (StateT s m) a
16:26:43 <lambdabot> s -> m (Either e a, s)
16:26:52 <ski> the difference is clearly visible there ^
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16:27:19 <boxscape> yeah, I even thought about that but didn't realize it would make a difference for this
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16:28:35 <boxscape> hello bbear
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16:31:05 <siers> is hpack still relevant?
16:31:09 <maerwald> no
16:31:20 <maerwald> don't take my word for it
16:31:30 <Hecate> siers: it still exists, is still being used by stack
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16:32:18 <boxscape> it's optional when using stack right?
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16:32:47 <Hecate> boxscape: yes, it's only triggered when a package.yaml is present at the top-level
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16:32:53 <boxscape> ok
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16:38:13 <ski> siers : istr people in here saying that it shouldn't be used, that even Snoyman no longer recommends it
16:38:29 <MorrowM> I find that using cabal-fmt has solved the main thing hpack did for me - I find formatting cabal files by hand to be fiddly.
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16:41:12 <dpeck> UR NOOB IRCD GOT PWNED BY LALBORNOZ FROM MIDIPIX / IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #MIDIPIX
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16:42:38 <Winterflow3r> UR NOOB IRCD GOT PWNED BY LALBORNOZ FROM MIDIPIX / IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #MIDIPIX
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16:44:26 <juri_> and so it begins.
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16:44:50 <mapgrep> UR NOOB IRCD GOT PWNED BY LALBORNOZ FROM MIDIPIX / IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #MIDIPIX
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16:47:08 <WikiLycurgus> fwiw, in the more than 10 channels i'm in that's only happening here
16:47:19 <lechner> yes
16:47:45 <boxscape> it's happening in #libera as well
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16:48:23 <WikiLycurgus> that was so busy I only was there at first
16:48:53 <cheater> why is the list of ops private on the channel, as well as the founder?
16:49:05 <lukeseale> :G
16:49:13 <WikiLycurgus> Fuchs commented on my presumption of my nick having been squatted before I realized the owner of lycr.gs just got here first
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16:49:39 <tomjaguarpaw> Anyone got a clue about "lhs2TeX: fd:7: hGetLine: end of file"? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/cSXbVKOi
16:50:05 <WikiLycurgus> sounds like an embedded tex error
16:50:55 <WikiLycurgus> very common error in tex/latex when its horror of a markup lang barfs
16:51:35 <tomjaguarpaw> But this is a "cabal install"!
16:52:02 <WikiLycurgus> and that can't run lhs2TeX ?
16:52:19 <boxscape> could be a test? Or would it say that it's running tests then?
16:52:24 <tomjaguarpaw> It seems like it tries to run it after it has built it, perhaps as part of a test suite?
16:52:34 <tomjaguarpaw> Right. Maybe I can tell cabal to ignore tests.
16:53:00 <boxscape> it seems like cabal should be saying `Building testsuite` or whatever before that happens though, hm
16:53:39 <tomjaguarpaw> Hmm, --disable-tests doesn't help :(
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16:53:57 <WikiLycurgus> so in literatep the documentation would or could or maybe should be produced at compile time
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16:55:33 <tomjaguarpaw> Ah well, reported as https://github.com/kosmikus/lhs2tex/issues/87
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17:02:10 <ordinate> oh thank god i remembered how to use hexchat
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17:03:35 <Ariakenom> another hexchat user? absurd
17:04:02 <ordinate> still have all the muscle memory from when i was 14
17:04:35 <janus> ordinate: does DCC work for you? i couldn't get it working
17:05:13 <ordinate> uncertain, havent tried
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17:09:26 <ski> janus : iirc, may depend on whether you're behind NAT or so ..
17:10:02 <janus> yeah that's what i spent my time with, i assumed that if the port was open, i could get it working
17:10:13 <janus> there is even a passive mode to have the open port on the other end
17:10:14 <ski> (although, using the "passive" variant might help)
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17:10:47 <janus> well it was just for kicks anyway, not really worth spending too much time with
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17:10:55 <janus> i just wanted to understand people's nostalgy :P
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17:11:09 <monochrom> I use hexchat too. Bite me.
17:11:23 ski bites
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17:11:41 <glguy> Is this one of those Alice in Wonderland things? What transformation happens?
17:11:46 <ski> (HexChat isn't too bad)
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17:12:00 <monochrom> And hexchat would be the one that doesn't need any remembering to use, if anything.
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17:12:10 <maerwald> glguy: we're all vampires... did you not know?
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17:16:27 <ordinate> god i wish irssi wasnt a pain to use on wsl or else id be using that
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17:17:42 <monochrom> We were all help vampires once upon a Halloween.
17:18:10 <janus> ordinate: why is it a pain on wsl?
17:18:27 <ordinate> mouse weirdness........
17:18:41 <janus> oh, i have not attempted to use the mouse with irssi
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17:18:53 <maerwald> try weechat
17:19:07 <mrosenbe> I did not know that irssi has any mouse integratin at all.
17:19:11 <monochrom> Me, I don't even expect WSL to see your mouse.
17:20:03 <janus> i think really only the terminal emulator has to see it, the mouse clicks go over the character device like everything else, i'd think?
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17:20:13 <boxscape> that sounds right to me
17:20:31 <monochrom> \∩/ first netsplit on libera! We are witnessing history!
17:20:40 <boxscape> ordinate maybe it works better with a different terminal emulator
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17:21:20 <ordinate> yea i should really try that first
17:21:44 <ordinate> another step on my quest to be a super linux poweruser
17:21:44 <drakonis> nah man
17:21:49 <drakonis> i've seen the first netsplit on day 1
17:21:49 <janus> ordinate: i know windows terminal has built in WSL support now
17:22:02 <monochrom> nice
17:22:13 <ordinate> wait theres a windows terminal???
17:22:21 <boxscape> yeah you can get it from the microsoft store
17:22:36 <boxscape> they even added a settings GUI recently instead of just a JSON file
17:22:37 <janus> they push it a lot, and it is open source, has tabs and stuff
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17:22:56 <ordinate> oh this is so cute im using this immediately
17:22:59 <janus> just using a json file was impressive to me, 20 years ago they would have used the registry ;)
17:23:06 <boxscape> (also it supports Fira Code's ligatures)
17:23:16 <ordinate> terminus 4 lyfe
17:23:18 <boxscape> janus good point
17:23:29 <monochrom> I agree about registry :)
17:23:42 <space-shell> alacritty isn't bad
17:23:51 <maerwald> space-shell: depends
17:23:54 <janus> ordinate: but really, irssi is quite portable, so i think it probably works fine in msys2 also. seems kinda weird running a whole linux kernel for irssi if the program you're actually using doesn't need it
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17:24:23 <maerwald> space-shell: it's annoyingly broken when you want to ssh, has memory consumption issues and problem on nvidia gpu
17:24:32 <ordinate> i honestly just want something to look at while i wait for nix-build to finish
17:24:32 <maerwald> also: some of the devs are hostile
17:24:38 <janus> ordinate: msys uses its own terminal emulator called Mintty, i think, i used to have msys running in windows terminal but i dunno how to do it with the new releases. there is probably a way
17:24:40 <ordinate> absolutely adore dvtm for this purpose
17:25:13 <maerwald> regardless, I use it myself, but I'm not too convinced
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17:25:19 <janus> ordinate: but consider that msys is using mintty because its fits their POSIX emulation story really well. so i think it absolutely has mouse support
17:25:28 <monochrom> I also agree about IRC for killing time :)
17:25:28 <space-shell> maerwald, I've not had memory issues but I've had glitching in WSL have you tried wezterm?
17:25:45 <monochrom> in fact s/IRC/lurking in IRC/
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17:26:55 <maerwald> space-shell: https://tinyurl.com/rafdyp22
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17:29:18 <EvanR> boxscape: dunno if you highlighted me yesterday but i got disconnected
17:29:33 <boxscape> erm I don't remember what we talked about yesterday :)
17:29:40 <EvanR> fair
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17:35:28 <ski> drakonis : day one, or day zero ?
17:35:46 <drakonis> day zero
17:35:51 <drakonis> the moment it opened
17:36:16 <monochrom> Darn
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17:42:30 <ordinate> after a horrendous amount of struggle, ive finally installed puredata in a way that doesnt leak memory
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17:42:36 <ordinate> time to learn hosc
17:44:01 <mrosenbe> #haskell is dead, long live #haskell
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17:44:57 <monochrom> So dramatic...
17:46:52 <boxscape> does text have a function to escape a text, like `show` does on Strings?
17:47:31 <boxscape> % show "\\"
17:47:31 <yahb> boxscape: "\"\\\\\""
17:48:03 <monochrom> I think show escapes Text too. Then again the output is String not Text.
17:48:44 <boxscape> hm I guess (T.pack . show) x isn't too bad
17:48:53 ← janus parts (janus@anubis.0x90.dk) (CPU quota exceeded)
17:49:06 <boxscape> % (Data.Text.pack . show) (Data.Text.pack "\\")
17:49:06 <yahb> boxscape: "\"\\\\\""
17:49:08 <boxscape> yeah
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17:49:29 <boxscape> good enough for my purposes
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17:59:52 <yin> someone whould really update https://www.haskell.org/irc
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18:07:31 <boxscape> equality constraints are also carries around in a dictionary right?
18:08:02 <ski> i'd expect not
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18:08:08 <boxscape> s/carries/carried
18:08:11 <boxscape> oh
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18:08:18 <maerwald> yin: https://github.com/haskell-infra/www.haskell.org/pull/84/files
18:08:19 <boxscape> ski would that mean they have no runtime cost?
18:08:36 <ski> (if they were carrying an actual isomorphism, rather than representational equality, they would have to)
18:09:02 <boxscape> right that makes sense
18:09:03 <ski> boxscape : i haven't looked at how things are actually implemented, but that's what i'd assume, yes
18:09:10 <boxscape> okay, cheers
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18:11:45 <ski> yin,maerwald : maybe it'd make sense to list both, interrim. or maybe it'd be better to await some sort of official decision ..
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18:12:08 <maerwald> freenode is flooded with spam afaih, so...
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18:12:37 <ski> we had a little bit of spam in here, not long ago
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18:26:33 <tomsmeding> edwardk: preliminary multi-network support in ircbrowse! https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com
18:26:49 <tomsmeding> there's bound to be stuff that doesn't work though
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18:28:52 <davean> tomsmeding: nice
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18:29:52 <tomsmeding> it's kiiind of hacked in, but I hope the code follows its own conventions as much as I think it does :)
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18:39:56 <edwardk> tomsmeding: you rock
18:40:26 <tomsmeding> :)
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18:44:30 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: if you wish I can add libera#xmonad to ircbrowse too
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18:46:13 <geekosaur> please, we moved over yessterday
18:47:03 <tomsmeding> given the addition of libera#haskell went basically without effort (apart from implementing multi-network support in the first place), let's see if adding another channel is as simple :)
18:51:25 <tomsmeding> geekosaur: https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/lcxmonad
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18:52:04 <tomsmeding> ah I found a bug already, the Link functionality doesn't do names correctly :p
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18:56:14 <ski> edwardk,tomsmeding : ty both
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18:58:52 <boxscape> tomsmeding there isn't a feature at the moment to hide joins/leaves, is there?
18:59:03 <tomsmeding> unfortunately not :p
18:59:06 <tomsmeding> still have to build that
18:59:06 <boxscape> okay
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18:59:23 <tomsmeding> some day
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19:01:56 tomsmeding finds that searching for # in the source code is a good way to find places where ircbrowse doesn't follow its own conventions regarding channel ids and channel names
19:02:05 <geekosaur> tyvm
19:02:28 <geekosaur> we're still waiting on channel access, sadly
19:03:07 <tomsmeding> sad
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19:20:36 <f-a> (pingiing sclv or edwardk)
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19:21:44 <sclv> what do u need me to do
19:22:17 <f-a> we would like to register #haskell-game
19:22:22 <f-a> we: me or sm
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19:27:00 <sclv> on it
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All times are in UTC on 2021-05-21.