Logs on 2021-05-23 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:32 | <yushyin> | they left ;D the irony that they won't see your answers after rejoin |
| 00:00:45 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 00:01:21 | <monochrom> | Why did they even come in the first place? Never saw them on Freenode. |
| 00:02:52 | <felixphew> | heard about new IRC net, gave it a try, saw Haskell (this is one of the bigger channels rn so you'd be near the top of the /list) and joined, presumably |
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| 00:05:54 | <boxscape> | maybe, but only if they confused "server" with "channel", since they specifically said "whenever I go to this channel" |
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| 00:30:19 | <boxscape> | hm, so, if you want to have an action of type `IO A` that doesn't produce the `A` value every time you use it, somewhere in its definition you have to use unsafePerformIO (or another unsafe function), is that right? |
| 00:30:46 | <mniip> | no? |
| 00:30:50 | <boxscape> | example? |
| 00:30:57 | <mniip> | I'm not sure what you mean though |
| 00:31:32 | <boxscape> | like I do `do {x <- foo; y <- foo; pure (x, y)}`, and the two elements of the tuple are different |
| 00:31:48 | <boxscape> | my assertion is that `foo`'s implementation must use unsafePerformIO, directly or indirectly |
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| 00:32:41 | <ChaiTRex> | boxscape: No, if foo :: IO Whatever, then it can produce different Whatever values each time it's called. |
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| 00:32:51 | <ChaiTRex> | Like getLine :: IO String |
| 00:32:58 | <boxscape> | getLine uses unsafePerformIO |
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| 00:33:02 | <ChaiTRex> | Produces different lines based on what's typed. |
| 00:33:04 | <boxscape> | stdin is defined with it |
| 00:33:15 | <boxscape> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/src/GHC-IO-Handle-FD.html#stdin |
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| 00:33:41 | <boxscape> | (and `getLine` calls hGetLine `stdin`) |
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| 00:33:49 | <boxscape> | err, `hGetLine stdin` |
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| 00:34:38 | <ChaiTRex> | stdin isn't IO Handle. |
| 00:34:48 | <ChaiTRex> | It's Handle |
| 00:34:50 | <boxscape> | no, but getLine is IO Srring |
| 00:34:52 | <boxscape> | IO String |
| 00:35:00 | <boxscape> | and getLine uses stdin in it's implementation |
| 00:35:07 | <boxscape> | so it indirectly calls unsafePerformIO |
| 00:36:03 | <boxscape> | ...though I guess you could hardcode stdin to some specific value, hope that it's right, and then it would work without unsafePerformIO, hm |
| 00:36:24 | <monochrom> | This is an interesting observation but you need to sharpen your mind way more to see what it really means. |
| 00:36:33 | <ChaiTRex> | You can also use the stdin definition without unsafePerformIO |
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| 00:36:53 | <boxscape> | oh. |
| 00:36:55 | <boxscape> | true |
| 00:36:55 | <monochrom> | For starters "have" is very open-ended. |
| 00:37:02 | <ChaiTRex> | do { stdin <- stdinDefintionWithoutUnsafePerformIO; ... } |
| 00:37:23 | <ChaiTRex> | So, no, you don't need unsafePerformIO, strictly speaking. |
| 00:37:27 | <boxscape> | yeah |
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| 00:38:42 | <monochrom> | The role of unsafePerformIO in this case is only to make stdin available at the top level. |
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| 00:39:40 | <boxscape> | right, okay |
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| 00:46:16 | <hpc> | alternatively, you could imagine the fact that stdin is initialized before main gains control, and in another world haskell programs might start with "main stdin stdout stderr ... = do" |
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| 00:52:38 | <boxscape> | funnily enough the other example I just thought off that is of type `IO Something` is randomIO, but that *also* uses unsafePerformIO |
| 00:52:55 | <boxscape> | but I think if you were to read from a file on the harddrive, it wouldn't need unsafePerformIO |
| 00:53:00 | <boxscape> | s/off/of |
| 00:53:14 | <boxscape> | (and of course the file could change) |
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| 00:55:57 | <hpc> | boxscape: there's an even better example, i forget what module it's in but there's a top-level definition of your operating system |
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| 00:56:17 | <hpc> | i forget if it's at build-time or runtime, and if it has IO in the type, but it's something to contemplate |
| 00:56:35 | <boxscape> | hm |
| 00:57:20 | <monochrom> | System.Info.os? That one is compiled-time. Basically a cheesy CPP. |
| 00:58:04 | <hpc> | ah, boring |
| 00:58:13 | <hpc> | maybe that's why i forgot :P |
| 00:58:25 | <boxscape> | if it's this one it uses the FFI https://hackage.haskell.org/package/system-info-0.5.2/docs/src/System.OS.html |
| 00:58:31 | <monochrom> | Totally exploits the fact that GHC does not do cross-OS-compilation. |
| 00:59:00 | <monochrom> | How often do you get to say "linux GHC can't make a windows exe, and that's a good thing"? >:) |
| 00:59:08 | <boxscape> | hehe |
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| 01:01:35 | <boxscape> | Perhaps there's some way to make this more rigorous and correct though, IORefs and Random both seem to have this property and both don't get information from outside the haskell program |
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| 01:03:51 | <boxscape> | oh, I think it might be the same criterion that lets effects be run in ST instead of in IO |
| 01:07:05 | <boxscape> | so |
| 01:07:19 | <boxscape> | do actions of type `ST Something` always have to return the same `Something`? |
| 01:07:50 | <boxscape> | ah wait |
| 01:07:55 | <boxscape> | that's not quite how ST works |
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| 01:12:18 | <boxscape> | I suppose any `IO Something` you can get with `stToIO` must always produce the same value |
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| 01:16:24 | <yuglg> | That seems right |
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| 01:17:25 | <boxscape> | okay |
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| 01:18:49 | <boxscape> | what makes a little uncomfortable is that `stToIO` takes a `ST RealWorld a` rather than a `forall s. ST s a`, and I read everywhere that this universal quantification over threads is what makes it pure |
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| 02:02:02 | <nshepperd> | that means it can access a previously created STRef Realworld |
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| 02:08:04 | <boxscape> | Ah, I see. |
| 02:08:21 | <nshepperd> | i think it's only 'forall s. ST s Something' that are guaranteed to always produce the same value |
| 02:08:28 | <boxscape> | okay |
| 02:08:39 | <nshepperd> | as long as you don't use unsafeIOToST |
| 02:08:43 | <boxscape> | right |
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| 02:22:09 | <liv> | Oh, V, are you the same V I'm thinking of? |
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| 02:31:26 | <dmwit> | Um. I jumped into the middle of this, so I may be missing some context. But a `forall s. ST s Something` isn't guaranteed to always produce the same value (or what would be the point of ST?), and `stToIO :: ST RealWorld Something -> IO Something` is not guaranteed to always produce the same Something. |
| 02:32:45 | <nshepperd> | the point of st is to execute algorithms that are more efficient with mutability, isn't it? |
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| 02:34:39 | <boxscape> | okay, more precisely: Let's say you have an expression of type `x :: forall s . ST s Something`, and importantly x does not have any free variables. Would `main = stToIO x >>= print` always result in the same output? |
| 02:35:15 | <boxscape> | (or rather, would it be guaranteed to always have the same output for a given x)) |
| 02:35:50 | <dmwit> | nshepperd: Yes, exactly. And mutability means if you look at the same variable twice you might get different answers. |
| 02:36:48 | <nshepperd> | dmwit: the forall is important |
| 02:37:05 | <dmwit> | nshepperd: `readSTRef foo` has the forall |
| 02:37:19 | <nshepperd> | no it doesn't |
| 02:37:41 | <dmwit> | boxscape: Hm. You are talking about "same across program executions", not "same across multiple references to x"? Why? |
| 02:37:55 | <boxscape> | `readSTRef :: STRef s a -> ST s a` is of type (forall s . STRef s a -> ST s a), not of type (forall s . ST s a) |
| 02:38:07 | <boxscape> | dmwit because it was the simplest way I could think of to make my question precise |
| 02:38:11 | <nshepperd> | the s is bound to the s of foo, not forall'd |
| 02:38:16 | <nshepperd> | in that case |
| 02:38:27 | <boxscape> | oh wait |
| 02:38:31 | <boxscape> | I missed the foo |
| 02:38:44 | <boxscape> | but yeah, no forall then I suppose |
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| 02:39:02 | dmwit | shrugs |
| 02:39:06 | <dmwit> | newSTRef has the forall |
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| 02:40:16 | <boxscape> | % :t newSTRef |
| 02:40:16 | <yahb> | boxscape: forall {a} {s}. a -> ST s (STRef s a) |
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| 02:40:57 | <boxscape> | % :t newSTRef 'c' -- something like this would have the right type |
| 02:40:57 | <yahb> | boxscape: forall {s}. ST s (STRef s Char) |
| 02:41:00 | <dmwit> | If print showed you the, like, memory address that the reference was referencing, two runs of the program could reasonably allocate it in different places. |
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| 02:41:40 | <boxscape> | hmm |
| 02:41:43 | <nshepperd> | you can wrap the resulting STRef in an existential container to hide the s, in which case yes, the result is in some sense different but the difference is useless |
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| 02:44:36 | <nshepperd> | what i said is really just a complicated way of saying 'runST foo is referentially transparent' |
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| 02:45:15 | <dmwit> | stToIO lets you return it without wrapping in an existential. Yes, runST foo is referentially transparent but my read of the question is that we are explicitly asking about the unsafe version where we don't use runST. |
| 02:46:40 | <dmwit> | Here's a better example of my objection: if you wrote `main = do { x <- stToIO (newSTRef 'a'); y <- stToIO (newSTRef 'b'); print (a == b) }` I think GHC would be within its rights to make a program that sometimes printed True and sometimes False. |
| 02:47:48 | <dmwit> | Okay, I had to use stToIO on two actions instead of just one. But I think this is still in the spirit of boxscape's inquiry. |
| 02:48:00 | <boxscape> | I think so |
| 02:49:39 | <nshepperd> | a == b? |
| 02:49:47 | <dmwit> | Yes. STRef implements Eq. |
| 02:49:52 | <boxscape> | x == y |
| 02:49:59 | <dmwit> | Oh, sorry. Yes, x == y |
| 02:50:01 | <dmwit> | lol |
| 02:52:09 | <nshepperd> | what this tells us is that it's important that the s in forall s. ST s Something is not free in Something |
| 02:52:43 | <boxscape> | ah, interesting |
| 02:52:48 | <dmwit> | Yes. That is exactly the constraint that runST enforces. |
| 02:53:27 | <dmwit> | If you restrict your stToIO'ing to things you could have runST'd in the first place, sure, you're safe. But then... why didn't you just runST it? |
| 02:54:09 | <boxscape> | because the original question was about IO :) |
| 02:54:36 | <boxscape> | but yeah, fair point |
| 02:54:46 | <dmwit> | Okay. Well, IO Something is even more emphatically not guaranteed to produce the same Something every time. |
| 02:55:00 | <boxscape> | yeah |
| 02:55:29 | <boxscape> | the question basically became, what restrictions do we have to impose to make it so |
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| 02:58:23 | <dmwit> | I think it's hard to safely do much better than ST. I think there's some work out there on using concurrency as an implementation technique, but making it safe by exposing an API that only allows parallelism. |
| 02:58:46 | <boxscape> | I see |
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| 03:01:26 | <nshepperd> | lvish, wasn't it? that whole lattice based framework for 'deterministic parallelism' |
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| 03:02:24 | <dmwit> | Yeah. There's been a couple attempts, I think, though my recollection is that one is the most sophisticated of them. |
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| 03:17:15 | <V> | liv: which V are you thinking of? :o |
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| 03:34:27 | <pavonia> | This V perhaps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_(character) :3 |
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| 05:38:53 | <V> | pavonia: no comment |
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| 07:11:57 | <jalonso> | alist |
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| 07:43:02 | <jsilver> | make 500 bucks in 1 second https://www.gbaldraw.fun/ |
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| 08:24:05 | <tomjaguarpaw> | How can I easily discover all the defaults in force? |
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| 09:02:16 | × | caleb quits (sid225275@user/ace) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:16 | × | dyniec_ quits (~dyniec@mail.dybiec.info) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:16 | × | totbwf quits (sid402332@highgate.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:16 | × | nshepperd2 quits (~nshepperd@li364-218.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:16 | × | Boomerang quits (~Boomerang@xd520f68c.cust.hiper.dk) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:16 | × | DasBrain quits (~DasBrain@user/dasbrain) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:16 | × | NinjaTrappeur quits (~ninja@user/ninjatrappeur) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:16 | × | opqdonut quits (opqdonut@pseudo.fixme.fi) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:16 | × | lightandlight quits (sid135476@brockwell.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | c_wraith quits (~c_wraith@adjoint.us) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | nurupo quits (~nurupo.ga@user/nurupo) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | gmc quits (sid58314@charlton.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | pflanze quits (~pflanze@5-168-208-80-pool.fiber.fcom.ch) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | pony quits (sid257727@brockwell.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | emergence quits (~emergence@vm0.max-p.me) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | jess quits (~jess@libera/staff/jess) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | etrepum quits (sid763@highgate.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | Athas quits (athas@sigkill.dk) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | piele quits (~piele@tbonesteak.creativeserver.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | thaumavorio quits (~thaumavor@thaumavor.io) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | blades quits (~blades@204.48.29.163) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | tdammers quits (~tdammers@77.109.72.213.res.static.edpnet.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | tv quits (~tv@user/tv) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | welterde quits (welterde@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | smarton quits (~smarton@121407.xyz) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | nckx quits (~nckx@tobias.gr) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | maerwald quits (~maerwald@user/maerwald) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | cohn quits (~noone@user/cohn) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | kaol quits (~kaol@178.62.241.234) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | bcoppens quits (~bartcopp@user/bcoppens) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | grfn quits (sid449115@brockwell.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | averell quits (~averell@dishfire.rxd4.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | bjs quits (sid190364@brockwell.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | relrod quits (~relrod@user/relrod) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | jiribenes quits (~jiribenes@rosa.jiribenes.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | liskin quits (~liskin@ackle.nomi.cz) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | edwardk quits (sid47016@haskell/developer/edwardk) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | systemfault quits (sid267009@highgate.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | Unhammer quits (~Unhammer@100.92-220-160.customer.lyse.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:17 | × | m4lvin quits (~m4lvin@w4eg.de) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | gonz quits (sid304396@tooting.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | davean quits (~davean@davean.sciesnet.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | asm quits (~alexander@user/asm) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | anoe quits (~anoe@delanoe.org) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | mrosenbe quits (~mrosenbe@104.225.243.2) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | edwtjo quits (~edwtjo@h-79-136-7-145.A213.priv.bahnhof.se) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | tomku quits (~tomku@user/tomku) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | ezzieyguywuf quits (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | tomjaguarpaw quits (~tom@li367-225.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | ham quits (~ham4@user/ham) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | jackhill quits (~jackhill@kalessin.dragonsnail.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | xerox quits (~edi@user/edi) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | bw quits (sid2730@user/betawaffle) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | Philonous quits (~Philonous@user/philonous) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | alp quits (~alp@user/alp) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | edmundnoble quits (sid229620@brockwell.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | V quits (~v@anomalous.eu) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | carbolymer quits (~carbolyme@dropacid.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | peutri quits (~peutri@ns317027.ip-94-23-46.eu) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | int-e quits (~noone@int-e.eu) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | df quits (~ben@51.15.198.140) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | _________ quits (~nobody@user//x-7881368) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | statusfailed quits (~statusfai@statusfailed.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | tlax quits (tlax@kapsi.fi) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | Clint quits (~Clint@user/clint) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | tapas quits (sid467876@charlton.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | travv0 quits (sid293381@user/travv0) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | Vq quits (~vq@90-227-195-41-no77.tbcn.telia.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | [exa] quits (exa@user/exa/x-3587197) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | SquidDev quits (~SquidDev@autoclave.squiddev.cc) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | idnar quits (sid12240@tooting.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:18 | × | cjay quits (cjay@nerdbox.nerd2nerd.org) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:19 | × | shane quits (~shane@ana.rch.ist) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:19 | × | Hecate quits (~mariposa@user/hecate) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:19 | × | Taneb quits (~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:19 | × | ridcully quits (~ridcully@pd951f269.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:19 | × | TimWolla quits (~timwolla@chrono.xqk7.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:19 | × | tomsmeding quits (~tomsmedin@tomsmeding.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:19 | × | bollu quits (~bollu@139.59.46.74) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:19 | × | mniip quits (mniip@libera/staff/mniip) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:02:34 | × | eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 09:05:34 | × | ddellacosta quits (~ddellacos@89.46.62.30) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 09:07:03 | × | hnOsmium0001 quits (uid453710@id-453710.stonehaven.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 09:07:29 | × | jalonso quits (~user@90.71.135.168) (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) |
| 09:07:44 | → | robertm joins (~robertm@rojoma.com) |
| 09:07:44 | → | edmundnoble joins (sid229620@brockwell.irccloud.com) |
| 09:07:44 | → | DasBrain joins (~DasBrain@user/dasbrain) |
| 09:07:44 | → | ezzieyguywuf joins (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) |
| 09:07:44 | → | ivan joins (~ivan@user/ivan) |
| 09:07:44 | → | pflanze joins (~pflanze@5-168-208-80-pool.fiber.fcom.ch) |
| 09:07:44 | → | jess joins (~jess@libera/staff/jess) |
| 09:07:44 | → | smarton joins (~smarton@121407.xyz) |
| 09:07:44 | → | df joins (~ben@51.15.198.140) |
| 09:07:44 | → | mrosenbe joins (~mrosenbe@104.225.243.2) |
| 09:07:44 | → | Unhammer joins (~Unhammer@100.92-220-160.customer.lyse.net) |
| 09:07:44 | → | xerox joins (~edi@user/edi) |
| 09:07:44 | → | piele joins (~piele@tbonesteak.creativeserver.net) |
| 09:07:44 | → | Clint joins (~Clint@user/clint) |
| 09:07:44 | → | caleb joins (sid225275@user/ace) |
| 09:07:44 | → | edwtjo joins (~edwtjo@h-79-136-7-145.A213.priv.bahnhof.se) |
| 09:07:44 | → | V joins (~v@anomalous.eu) |
| 09:07:44 | → | shane joins (~shane@ana.rch.ist) |
| 09:07:44 | → | bjs joins (sid190364@brockwell.irccloud.com) |
| 09:07:44 | → | statusfailed joins (~statusfai@statusfailed.com) |
| 09:07:44 | → | nckx joins (~nckx@tobias.gr) |
| 09:07:44 | → | lambdabot joins (~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot) |
| 09:07:44 | → | integral joins (sid296274@user/integral) |
| 09:07:44 | → | polux joins (~polux@51.15.169.172) |
| 09:07:44 | → | glguy joins (x@libera/staff/glguy) |
| 09:07:44 | → | dyniec_ joins (~dyniec@mail.dybiec.info) |
| 09:07:44 | → | totbwf joins (sid402332@highgate.irccloud.com) |
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| 09:07:44 | → | Boomerang joins (~Boomerang@xd520f68c.cust.hiper.dk) |
| 09:07:44 | → | etrepum joins (sid763@highgate.irccloud.com) |
| 09:07:44 | → | opqdonut joins (opqdonut@pseudo.fixme.fi) |
| 09:07:44 | → | NinjaTrappeur joins (~ninja@user/ninjatrappeur) |
| 09:07:44 | → | lightandlight joins (sid135476@brockwell.irccloud.com) |
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| 09:07:44 | → | gmc joins (sid58314@charlton.irccloud.com) |
| 09:07:44 | → | emergence joins (~emergence@vm0.max-p.me) |
| 09:07:44 | → | ham joins (~ham4@user/ham) |
| 09:07:44 | → | Athas joins (athas@sigkill.dk) |
| 09:07:44 | → | pony joins (sid257727@brockwell.irccloud.com) |
| 09:07:44 | → | blades joins (~blades@204.48.29.163) |
| 09:07:44 | → | thaumavorio joins (~thaumavor@thaumavor.io) |
| 09:07:44 | → | tdammers joins (~tdammers@77.109.72.213.res.static.edpnet.net) |
| 09:07:44 | → | tv joins (~tv@user/tv) |
| 09:07:44 | → | welterde joins (welterde@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de) |
| 09:07:44 | → | maerwald joins (~maerwald@user/maerwald) |
| 09:07:44 | iridium.libera.chat | sets mode +o glguy |
| 09:07:44 | → | cohn joins (~noone@user/cohn) |
| 09:07:44 | → | kaol joins (~kaol@178.62.241.234) |
| 09:07:44 | → | bcoppens joins (~bartcopp@user/bcoppens) |
| 09:07:44 | → | grfn joins (sid449115@brockwell.irccloud.com) |
| 09:07:44 | → | averell joins (~averell@dishfire.rxd4.com) |
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| 09:07:44 | → | relrod joins (~relrod@user/relrod) |
| 09:07:44 | → | liskin joins (~liskin@ackle.nomi.cz) |
| 09:07:44 | → | edwardk joins (sid47016@haskell/developer/edwardk) |
| 09:07:44 | → | systemfault joins (sid267009@highgate.irccloud.com) |
| 09:07:44 | → | m4lvin joins (~m4lvin@w4eg.de) |
| 09:07:44 | → | asm joins (~alexander@user/asm) |
| 09:07:44 | → | gonz joins (sid304396@tooting.irccloud.com) |
| 09:07:44 | → | davean joins (~davean@davean.sciesnet.net) |
| 09:07:44 | → | anoe joins (~anoe@delanoe.org) |
| 09:07:44 | → | TimWolla joins (~timwolla@chrono.xqk7.com) |
| 09:07:44 | → | tomku joins (~tomku@user/tomku) |
| 09:07:44 | → | tomjaguarpaw joins (~tom@li367-225.members.linode.com) |
| 09:07:44 | → | jackhill joins (~jackhill@kalessin.dragonsnail.net) |
| 09:07:44 | → | _________ joins (~nobody@user//x-7881368) |
| 09:07:44 | → | idnar joins (sid12240@tooting.irccloud.com) |
| 09:07:44 | → | travv0 joins (sid293381@user/travv0) |
| 09:07:44 | → | bw joins (sid2730@user/betawaffle) |
| 09:07:44 | → | Philonous joins (~Philonous@user/philonous) |
| 09:07:44 | → | alp joins (~alp@user/alp) |
| 09:07:44 | → | carbolymer joins (~carbolyme@dropacid.net) |
| 09:07:44 | → | peutri joins (~peutri@ns317027.ip-94-23-46.eu) |
| 09:07:44 | → | Vq joins (~vq@90-227-195-41-no77.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 09:07:44 | → | int-e joins (~noone@int-e.eu) |
| 09:07:44 | → | tlax joins (tlax@kapsi.fi) |
| 09:07:44 | → | tapas joins (sid467876@charlton.irccloud.com) |
| 09:07:44 | → | bollu joins (~bollu@139.59.46.74) |
| 09:07:44 | → | [exa] joins (exa@user/exa/x-3587197) |
| 09:07:44 | → | SquidDev joins (~SquidDev@autoclave.squiddev.cc) |
| 09:07:44 | → | cjay joins (cjay@nerdbox.nerd2nerd.org) |
| 09:07:44 | → | Hecate joins (~mariposa@user/hecate) |
| 09:07:44 | → | Taneb joins (~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org) |
| 09:07:44 | → | ridcully joins (~ridcully@pd951f269.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 09:07:44 | → | tomsmeding joins (~tomsmedin@tomsmeding.com) |
| 09:07:44 | → | mniip joins (mniip@libera/staff/mniip) |
| 09:08:39 | <ij> | is chunking necessary for parallelization, if I simply want to utilize all processors? |
| 09:08:56 | <ij> | (so I've added -N8 and -threaded or what was it) |
| 09:12:35 | → | holy_ joins (~h01y_b4z0@2400:adc1:178:c800:9e45:76a9:57f2:1665) |
| 09:13:39 | × | lambdabot quits (~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | ivan quits (~ivan@user/ivan) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | integral quits (sid296274@user/integral) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | robertm quits (~robertm@rojoma.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | caleb quits (sid225275@user/ace) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | polux quits (~polux@51.15.169.172) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | dyniec_ quits (~dyniec@mail.dybiec.info) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | glguy quits (x@libera/staff/glguy) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | totbwf quits (sid402332@highgate.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | nshepperd2 quits (~nshepperd@li364-218.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | Boomerang quits (~Boomerang@xd520f68c.cust.hiper.dk) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | DasBrain quits (~DasBrain@user/dasbrain) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | NinjaTrappeur quits (~ninja@user/ninjatrappeur) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | opqdonut quits (opqdonut@pseudo.fixme.fi) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | lightandlight quits (sid135476@brockwell.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | c_wraith quits (~c_wraith@adjoint.us) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | nurupo quits (~nurupo.ga@user/nurupo) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | gmc quits (sid58314@charlton.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:39 | × | pflanze quits (~pflanze@5-168-208-80-pool.fiber.fcom.ch) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | pony quits (sid257727@brockwell.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | emergence quits (~emergence@vm0.max-p.me) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | jess quits (~jess@libera/staff/jess) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | etrepum quits (sid763@highgate.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | Athas quits (athas@sigkill.dk) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | piele quits (~piele@tbonesteak.creativeserver.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | thaumavorio quits (~thaumavor@thaumavor.io) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | blades quits (~blades@204.48.29.163) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | tdammers quits (~tdammers@77.109.72.213.res.static.edpnet.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | tv quits (~tv@user/tv) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | welterde quits (welterde@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | smarton quits (~smarton@121407.xyz) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | nckx quits (~nckx@tobias.gr) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | maerwald quits (~maerwald@user/maerwald) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | cohn quits (~noone@user/cohn) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | kaol quits (~kaol@178.62.241.234) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | bcoppens quits (~bartcopp@user/bcoppens) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | grfn quits (sid449115@brockwell.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | averell quits (~averell@dishfire.rxd4.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | bjs quits (sid190364@brockwell.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | jiribenes quits (~jiribenes@rosa.jiribenes.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | relrod quits (~relrod@user/relrod) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | systemfault quits (sid267009@highgate.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | edwardk quits (sid47016@haskell/developer/edwardk) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | liskin quits (~liskin@ackle.nomi.cz) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | Unhammer quits (~Unhammer@100.92-220-160.customer.lyse.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | m4lvin quits (~m4lvin@w4eg.de) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | gonz quits (sid304396@tooting.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | asm quits (~alexander@user/asm) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | davean quits (~davean@davean.sciesnet.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | anoe quits (~anoe@delanoe.org) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | mrosenbe quits (~mrosenbe@104.225.243.2) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:40 | × | edwtjo quits (~edwtjo@h-79-136-7-145.A213.priv.bahnhof.se) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:41 | × | tomku quits (~tomku@user/tomku) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:41 | × | ezzieyguywuf quits (~Unknown@user/ezzieyguywuf) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:41 | × | tomjaguarpaw quits (~tom@li367-225.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:41 | × | ham quits (~ham4@user/ham) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:41 | × | jackhill quits (~jackhill@kalessin.dragonsnail.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:41 | × | xerox quits (~edi@user/edi) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:41 | × | bw quits (sid2730@user/betawaffle) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:41 | × | alp quits (~alp@user/alp) (*.net *.split) |
| 09:13:41 | × | edmundnoble quits (sid229620@brockwell.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
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| 09:16:32 | <gentauro> | ij: I have this in my `template.cabal` -> https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/tYGpNnFCqV/ |
| 09:16:49 | <gentauro> | read what `merijn` says write ;) |
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| 09:19:47 | iridium.libera.chat | sets mode +o glguy |
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| 09:58:55 | <a6a45081-2b83> | @pl "\x -> h (f x) (g x)" |
| 09:58:55 | <lambdabot> | (line 1, column 4): |
| 09:58:55 | <lambdabot> | unexpected " " |
| 09:58:55 | <lambdabot> | expecting expression |
| 09:59:01 | <a6a45081-2b83> | @pl \x -> h (f x) (g x) |
| 09:59:01 | <lambdabot> | liftM2 h f g |
| 09:59:16 | <a6a45081-2b83> | @t h <$> f <*> g |
| 09:59:16 | <lambdabot> | Maybe you meant: tell thank you thanks thesaurus thx tic-tac-toe ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete type v @ ? . |
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| 09:59:33 | <a6a45081-2b83> | @t "\f g h -> h <$> f <*> g" |
| 09:59:34 | <lambdabot> | Maybe you meant: tell thank you thanks thesaurus thx tic-tac-toe ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete type v @ ? . |
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| 10:00:51 | <tomsmeding> | :t \f g h -> h <$> f <*> g |
| 10:00:52 | <lambdabot> | Applicative f => f a1 -> f a2 -> (a1 -> a2 -> b) -> f b |
| 10:02:07 | <a6a45081-2b83> | :t \f g h x -> (h <$> f <*> g) x |
| 10:02:08 | <lambdabot> | (t1 -> a1) -> (t1 -> a2) -> (a1 -> a2 -> t2) -> t1 -> t2 |
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| 10:02:11 | <a6a45081-2b83> | cool |
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| 10:10:04 | <maerwald> | things you add to extra-prog-path in cabal.config are not exposed in PATH when you run `cabal exec`? |
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| 10:18:57 | <a6a45081-2b83> | why isn't "if'" included in Prelude? |
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| 10:20:01 | WikiLycurgus | guesses non standard idiom |
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| 10:21:09 | <maerwald> | bzlib and clock fail to build on windows with a hsc2hs error: https://dpaste.com/3KEYA6EAV |
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| 10:24:15 | <Hecate> | I've almost conquered Generics! |
| 10:24:22 | <Hecate> | for minimal fun and 0 profit! |
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| 10:46:29 | <river> | :t bool |
| 10:46:30 | <lambdabot> | a -> a -> Bool -> a |
| 10:46:35 | <river> | a6a45081-2b83, there you go |
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| 10:49:01 | <a6a45081-2b83> | > bool 3 2 (3>2) |
| 10:49:03 | <lambdabot> | 2 |
| 10:49:17 | <a6a45081-2b83> | hmm |
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| 10:56:10 | <enikar> | You can see bool as: bool ifFalse ifTrue aBool |
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| 11:29:06 | du | is now known as uk |
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| 11:50:06 | <tomjaguarpaw> | > \case { True -> 3; False -> 2 } $ (3>2) |
| 11:50:07 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
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| 12:25:55 | <jco> | Hi! Anyone here using `stylisk-haskell` with Haddock comments? I get this: http://ix.io/3nDi. The comment for each data constructor are moved to after the constructors, when running `stylish-haskell` on a buffer... Any idea if there is a configuration option to fix this? |
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| 14:42:39 | <Restle> | Are there any idiomatic/nice ways to compose smart constructors? I'm imagining something like `mkA . mkB . mkC $ n` where the result is a nest of newtypes but using typeclasses to peel them off later on |
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| 14:45:13 | <Restle> | Something like, `instance (Unwrap a) => Unwrap f a where`, so that no matter how I nest them I can get to the `n` |
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| 15:02:55 | <WikiLycurgus> | tactic observed in another channel to force users here: set a low limit on the freenode channel |
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| 15:10:36 | <Guest98> | those tactics don't necessarily force users here, they simply force them off freenode |
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| 15:11:03 | <ski> | Restle : question is unclear. elaborate ? |
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| 15:13:43 | <hpc> | it does prevent splitting the community, at least |
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| 15:14:38 | <dmwit> | Restle: Is `coerce` good enough for you? |
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| 15:19:37 | <Hafydd> | It seems better to set the channel to +m and state in the topic that the channel has moved to liberachat. |
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| 15:25:09 | <ski> | Hafydd : all of those were employed |
| 15:27:42 | <Hafydd> | Oh, good. |
| 15:29:06 | <ski> | @hoogle stToIO |
| 15:29:06 | <lambdabot> | Error, database does not exist (run 'hoogle generate' first) |
| 15:29:06 | <lambdabot> | Filename: /home/lambda/libera/.hoogle/default-haskell-5.0.18.hoo |
| 15:30:25 | <ChaiTRex> | Who owns lambdabot? |
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| 15:39:37 | <dmwit> | int-e: ^ |
| 15:39:58 | <hpc> | Hafydd: scroll back a bit in freenode #haskell, saying the channel has moved in the topic is against the rules now |
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| 15:43:18 | <mmaruseacph2> | :o |
| 15:43:44 | <Hafydd> | hpc: I'm not surprised they implemented such a rule (but it might be worth Disobeying the rule). I've dropped my account on freenode, though, so I'm no longer frequenting that channel. |
| 15:44:10 | <hpc> | ah |
| 15:44:36 | <hpc> | the current phrasing of the topic is that this channel exists and is "very active" |
| 15:44:43 | <hpc> | basically a wink wink nudge nudge kind of thing |
| 15:45:04 | <Hafydd> | This kind of reminds me of the partition of Berlin. |
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| 15:47:14 | <Hafydd> | (Would it also be illegal for a liberachat channel to state it has moved to freenode?) |
| 15:47:28 | <hpc> | nope |
| 15:47:42 | <hpc> | this is west berlin |
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| 15:49:26 | <dmwit> | I would certainly find it a bit odd for a liberachat channel to move, given that liberachat is only days old. |
| 15:49:42 | <juri_> | https://github.com/freenode/web-7.0/commit/1194a3e71a427a669ccdddee22006416d46eeb43 |
| 15:49:49 | <juri_> | partay. |
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| 15:50:21 | <uk> | 22Co-authored-by: Andrew Lee <rasengan@Andrews-MacBook-Air.local> lol |
| 15:50:57 | <int-e> | @hoogle stToIO |
| 15:50:57 | <lambdabot> | Control.Monad.ST stToIO :: ST RealWorld a -> IO a |
| 15:50:58 | <lambdabot> | Control.Monad.ST.Lazy stToIO :: ST RealWorld a -> IO a |
| 15:50:58 | <lambdabot> | Control.Monad.ST.Lazy.Safe stToIO :: ST RealWorld a -> IO a |
| 15:51:41 | <int-e> | dmwit: thanks |
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| 15:56:02 | <dmwit> | No, thank YOU! |
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| 16:06:41 | <int-e> | dmwit: it was just a symlink. but I wouldn't have noticed it myself :) |
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| 16:06:50 | <int-e> | (well, not soon anyway. probably) |
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| 16:07:39 | <int-e> | maybe I should write about my arcane lambdabot setup just so that people can teach me how to do it better ;) |
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| 16:12:36 | <dmwit> | hah! |
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| 16:23:56 | <safinaskar> | i just uploaded my first candidate package |
| 16:24:05 | <safinaskar> | http://hackage.haskell.org/package/check-cfg-ambiguity-0.0.0.1/candidate |
| 16:24:11 | <safinaskar> | but haddock doc is absent |
| 16:24:13 | <safinaskar> | why? |
| 16:24:25 | <safinaskar> | it is not generated yet? haddock for candidate packages not supported? or i did something wrong? |
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| 16:26:45 | <fendor> | safinaskar, it takes hackage some time to build the documentation |
| 16:27:05 | <safinaskar> | fendor: thanks. how many? |
| 16:27:19 | <int-e> | hmm, lambdabot's list has 15 channels so far... surely that can't be all; it used to be 77 (plus a couple that people kept adding manually) :) |
| 16:27:34 | <fendor> | with `cabal haddock --haddock-for-hackage`, you can build the documentation manually and upload it to the candidate with `cabal upload -d ...` |
| 16:27:46 | × | Tomurb quits (~tom@92-17.net.optinet.cz) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 16:28:00 | <int-e> | what I'm trying to say, lambdabot can join more channels, just ask |
| 16:28:00 | <fendor> | no idea how long, I usually upload it myself or just don't check |
| 16:28:03 | <safinaskar> | fendor: i don't want this. i want hackage to generate docs for me to be sure that everything is ok |
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| 16:29:13 | <fendor> | safinaskar, according to https://hackage.haskell.org/upload this is basically what hackage does (last paragraph). |
| 16:31:09 | <geekosaur> | int-e, can we have lambdabot in #xmonad again? |
| 16:32:12 | <int-e> | okay |
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| 16:33:18 | <geekosaur> | thank you |
| 16:33:53 | <tomsmeding> | Where does @botsnack even come from |
| 16:37:02 | <kewa> | @type map |
| 16:37:03 | <lambdabot> | (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] |
| 16:38:39 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/blob/master/lambdabot-misc-plugins/src/Lambdabot/Plugin/Misc/Dummy.hs#L67 ;-) |
| 16:39:07 | <int-e> | lambdabot has a long history and a number of silly people were involved in it |
| 16:39:35 | <int-e> | but I think the idea is, lambdabot helps you, you feed it a treat :) |
| 16:39:50 | <tomsmeding> | @thx |
| 16:39:50 | <lambdabot> | you are welcome |
| 16:39:59 | <tomsmeding> | :) |
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| 16:42:54 | <lyxia> | safinaskar: I'm not sure it builds the documentation for candidates. For released packages it took 10 minutes for one package of mine recently. |
| 16:46:19 | <safinaskar> | lyxia: thanks. 2 hours passed, it seems, hackage really doesn't build docs |
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| 16:48:28 | <kewa> | @botsnack |
| 16:48:28 | <lambdabot> | :) |
| 16:48:34 | <kewa> | so cool |
| 16:49:58 | <kewa> | @choose flood notflood |
| 16:49:58 | <lambdabot> | notflood |
| 16:50:04 | <kewa> | @sorry |
| 16:50:04 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
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| 16:59:34 | <juri_> | @choose cake death |
| 16:59:34 | <lambdabot> | death |
| 16:59:45 | <juri_> | not the smartest... |
| 17:00:02 | <safinaskar> | juri_: :) |
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| 17:19:49 | <boxscape> | % writeFile "foo" "—" |
| 17:19:49 | <yahb> | boxscape: *** Exception: foo: commitBuffer: invalid argument (invalid character) |
| 17:19:55 | <boxscape> | why can haskell not write m-dashes? |
| 17:20:39 | <boxscape> | (or read, for that matter) |
| 17:21:09 | <lyxia> | that probably depends on the encoding and the default for yahb is probably not UTF-8 |
| 17:21:15 | <boxscape> | hm, I see |
| 17:23:34 | <boxscape> | weirdly my haskell script was able to read a file containing an m-dash yesterday but now refuses to do so |
| 17:23:56 | <boxscape> | on the same machine and everything |
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| 17:25:04 | <lyxia> | You need to call an exorcist. |
| 17:25:32 | <boxscape> | % System.IO.hGetEncoding System.IO.stdin |
| 17:25:32 | <yahb> | boxscape: Just UTF-8 |
| 17:25:35 | <boxscape> | I guess I will |
| 17:25:53 | <koz> | The singularity is here. |
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| 17:26:49 | <hpc> | % writeFile "foo" "-" |
| 17:26:49 | <yahb> | hpc: |
| 17:27:07 | <hpc> | just to be sure :P |
| 17:27:14 | <monochrom> | In fact... |
| 17:27:14 | <boxscape> | hah yes |
| 17:27:19 | <monochrom> | % readFile "foo" |
| 17:27:19 | <yahb> | monochrom: "-" |
| 17:27:35 | <geekosaur> | that doesn't look like the same dash to me? |
| 17:27:52 | <monochrom> | No, not intended to be the same dash. |
| 17:27:54 | <hpc> | it isn't, i just wanted to make sure it wasn't lying and it was somehow an IO error of some sort |
| 17:28:03 | <monochrom> | Instead, testing what writeFile does "normally". |
| 17:28:08 | <monochrom> | control experiment |
| 17:28:55 | <ptrcmd> | %readFile "foo" |
| 17:29:01 | <ptrcmd> | % readFile "foo" |
| 17:29:01 | <yahb> | ptrcmd: "-" |
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| 17:30:46 | <lyxia> | % localeEncoding |
| 17:30:46 | <yahb> | lyxia: ASCII |
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| 17:31:49 | <monochrom> | Hrm that's strange. It takes manual effort to set that. |
| 17:34:11 | <boxscape> | % withFile "foo23" WriteMode (\h -> hGetEncoding h >>= print >> hSetEncoding h utf8 >> hGetEncoding h >>= print >> hPutStrLn h "—") >> withFile "foo23" ReadMode (\h -> hSetEncoding h utf8 >> hGetContents h >>= putStrLn) |
| 17:34:12 | <yahb> | boxscape: Just ASCII; Just UTF-8; — |
| 17:34:13 | <boxscape> | I guess that works |
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| 17:35:26 | <boxscape> | Ah! I figured out why it worked yesterday |
| 17:35:44 | <boxscape> | yesterday, I ran the runghc I got from ghc.nix, but today I used the one I got from `nix-shell -p ghc` |
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| 17:40:48 | <tomsmeding> | Locale settings are the worst |
| 17:41:21 | <tomsmeding> | Beware the day you're naively reading a floating point value from a string and it fails because you're now in a European locale where it expects , instead of . |
| 17:41:31 | <boxscape> | the correct encoding always depends only on the file you read, right? |
| 17:41:35 | <tomsmeding> | C does that, I hope haskell doesn't |
| 17:42:26 | <tomsmeding> | I wrote a C++ application once that broke when I added gtk+ as a dependency, because on initialisation that set the locale to a local thing that made floating point IO ops use , |
| 17:42:33 | <monochrom> | Files have no metadata stating its encoding. |
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| 17:43:34 | <boxscape> | monochrom right, but the characters are going to be encoded in some encoding anyway, so you might not be able to figure out what the right encoding is, but it shouldn't depend on anything except the file you're reading, is my understanding |
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| 17:44:07 | <monochrom> | Yeah, ideally, someone tells you via a back channel. |
| 17:44:11 | <boxscape> | okay |
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| 17:44:34 | <monochrom> | In practice, everyone disagree what the back channel should be. |
| 17:44:39 | <boxscape> | nice |
| 17:44:41 | <monochrom> | Naw, it's worse. |
| 17:45:18 | <monochrom> | In practice, everyone agrees there should be one universally adopted encoding, and disagrees what it should be. |
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| 18:04:04 | <c_wraith> | let's settle on UTF-16, the worst of all worlds |
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| 18:06:49 | <hpc> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-7 |
| 18:08:23 | <hpc> | no matter how bad UTF-16 is, it doesn't have security flaws :D |
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| 18:10:40 | <davean> | it sure would be harder, but do you think something similar is entirely impossible with UTF-16? |
| 18:11:05 | <davean> | Thats a fundimental data-handling flaw in the program handling the data. |
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| 18:14:52 | <hpc> | unicode in general does have normalization issues, but they're limited to things like ä |
| 18:15:21 | <davean> | hpc: but I can read UTF-16 as ascii all I want. |
| 18:15:38 | <davean> | its not like that fails - and thats all that attack is s/utf-16/utf-7/ |
| 18:15:47 | <davean> | it just happens that for HTML this is a convinient confusion |
| 18:15:58 | <davean> | other encodings can have convinient confusions for different things. |
| 18:16:22 | <hpc> | oh well sure, for that first point on the wiki page |
| 18:16:32 | <hpc> | i was thinking more the XSS thing, where "<" has multiple representations |
| 18:16:41 | <davean> | ah |
| 18:17:03 | <davean> | I mean same issue really - that just makes it easier to not notice you've fucked up your encoding handling. |
| 18:17:59 | <hpc> | yeah, the real answer is normalizing your input since that generalizes to all encodings of unicode |
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| 18:19:50 | <davean> | ight |
| 18:20:07 | <davean> | utf-7 just has a convinient bad example |
| 18:21:00 | <hpc> | well, the point is that issue exists for every codepoint |
| 18:21:07 | <hpc> | not just the stuff that's equivalent to combining characters |
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| 20:06:48 | <boxscape> | with mtl is it more common to have the constraints like MonadError in your types or to use concrete transformer stack with e.g. ExceptT? |
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| 20:07:30 | <__monty__> | I think the former is the point of mtl? |
| 20:07:43 | <__monty__> | The latter just sounds like monad transformers? |
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| 20:09:41 | <janislago> | im wondering about how to get into haskell |
| 20:09:46 | <janislago> | where would i start? |
| 20:10:07 | <doyougnu> | You usually want constraints because you may change the monad transformer stack for testing or something else. |
| 20:10:29 | ← | janislago parts (~user@c-24-98-52-54.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) () |
| 20:10:37 | <boxscape> | __monty__ IIUC the point is that you don't have to use lift everywhere, i.e. you can directly use throwError for example even if you're in `WriterT String (ExceptT String) Reader Int`, or whatever |
| 20:10:46 | <boxscape> | doyougnu ok, that makes sense |
| 20:11:29 | <boxscape> | I suppose mtl has more than one point then :) |
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| 20:12:20 | <__monty__> | boxscape: But that's because of the typeclass approach. |
| 20:13:04 | <__monty__> | These are not separate things. You can use those methods because they're typeclass methods, not functions that work at a certain level of a stack. |
| 20:13:07 | <boxscape> | __monty__ yes, but you can use the methods even if you have a concrete stack, just like you can use `show` even if you have `x :: Int` instead of `x :: Show a => a` |
| 20:13:46 | <__monty__> | Hmm, yes, true. |
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| 20:44:12 | <doyougnu> | janislago: I would start with learn you a haskell. That's how I got started with the language. Brent Yorgey's CIS 194 is also a great introduction. CIS 194: https://www.cis.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/ LYAH: http://learnyouahaskell.com/ |
| 20:44:30 | <boxscape> | doyougnu alas, they left |
| 20:44:36 | <doyougnu> | oh damn I was too late :( |
| 20:44:47 | <boxscape> | I meant to reply too but forgot :( |
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| 20:46:19 | <enikar> | doyougnu: the cis 194 moved to https://haskell-via-sokoban.nomeata.de/ |
| 20:47:11 | <enikar> | someon told me that a couple of days ago |
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| 20:47:52 | <doyougnu> | looks like the old website is still up though |
| 20:48:09 | <doyougnu> | also that link says its for the 2016 version. The BY version I linked to is the 2013 version |
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| 20:49:45 | enikar | nods |
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| 20:53:45 | <yushyin> | :) |
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| 21:01:07 | <hrnz> | :) |
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| 21:15:48 | <fart> | does anyone have some up to date references for building a stack project (yesod specifically) with nix? |
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| 21:17:03 | <__monty__> | Isn't the haskell infra documentation linked to in the manual up to date? |
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| 21:19:06 | <__monty__> | Yeah, I think this is what you're looking for, https://haskell4nix.readthedocs.io/nixpkgs-users-guide.html#how-to-create-nix-builds-for-your-own-private-haskell-packages |
| 21:20:27 | <fart> | thanks! |
| 21:26:15 | <doyougnu> | fart: if you're just looking to use yesod as a dependency you might just need to enable nix flag in your stack.yaml |
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| 22:30:32 | <sclv> | just as an fyi, we'll probably have some hackage downtime later today (maybe in an hour or two) as we migrate to a bigger server |
| 22:30:49 | <sclv> | mirrors will still work, so won't affect cabal usage etc, just doc availability |
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| 22:46:26 | <Restle> | I remember reading a blogpost that covered full parametric data types (I.E, `data Person name age = Person name age`) where every field is a type variable, but I forgot what it was referred to as |
| 22:46:42 | <Restle> | Is there a common name for this? Google isn't turning up much |
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| 22:49:14 | <dmwit> | I guess it's a sum of products. |
| 22:49:28 | <dmwit> | I don't really think there's a common name for it. It's not a common property. |
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| 22:53:49 | <hpc> | the value-level equivalent is "supercombinator" |
| 22:54:16 | <hpc> | even at that level it's not terribly interesting |
| 22:56:23 | <Restle> | It makes for some interesting APIs though, if you're able to demand constraints on specific fields sometimes and not others: `data User a b = User { username :: a, password :: b }` allowing for: `login :: forall a b. Hash b => User a b -> IO ()` |
| 22:57:16 | <hpc> | what if you want to process a list of users |
| 22:57:19 | <Restle> | I don't want to do this though, nor suggesting doing this everywhere, I was just trying to track down the original block post |
| 22:57:22 | <Restle> | blog* |
| 22:57:28 | <hpc> | some of which have sha256 passwords and some of which have sha512 passwords? |
| 22:58:03 | <Restle> | Then either your type system just helped you realise you were about to write broken code and that is by design :), or you generalise the type further perhaps? |
| 22:58:24 | <boxscape> | data UserList a = forall b . UserList [User a b]? |
| 22:58:29 | <boxscape> | eh |
| 22:58:35 | <boxscape> | data UserList a = forall b . Hash b => UserList [User a b]? |
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| 22:59:18 | <Restle> | Yeah existentials save you here but it's kind of nasty |
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| 23:02:29 | <doyougnu> | Could it be related to Tagless-Final stuff from Oleg? |
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| 23:06:27 | <Restle> | Possibly but his site is a labyrinth, I wouldn't know where to start trying to track it down :( |
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| 23:21:10 | <boxscape> | ah, actually, the existential would have to be different |
| 23:21:24 | <boxscape> | data EUser a = forall b . Hash b => User a b |
| 23:21:32 | <boxscape> | and then you can use [EUser a] directly |
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| 23:21:48 | <boxscape> | with the other definition there's still only one b for the entire list |
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| 23:23:12 | <Restle> | You could `type UserList a = [forall b. User a b]` I think |
| 23:23:42 | <Restle> | Missed the constraint but I'm falling asleep at the keyboard, time to logoff I think |
| 23:23:52 | <boxscape> | seems like it would have to be `type UserList a = [exists b . Hash b => User a b]` no? |
| 23:24:03 | <boxscape> | (except of course we don't have the exists keyword yet) |
| 23:24:28 | <Restle> | exists can _always_ be transformed into some Rank N of forall though no? |
| 23:24:48 | <boxscape> | yes, exists n . P n = forall r (forall n . P n -> r) -> r, I believe |
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