Logs on 2021-05-24 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:09:20	<ski>	Restle : no, `[forall b. User a b]' is very different
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00:15:31	boxscape	sighs
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00:15:39	<boxscape>	I so often want Bool to have a Monoid instance for &&
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00:15:52	<boxscape>	so I can do `predicate1 <> predicate2 :: a -> Bool`
00:16:41	<boxscape>	(without messing around with newtypes, because at that point I might as well write it all out)
00:20:22	<boxscape>	Alternatively I guess (&&) and (\|\|) could be methods of some class and `a -> Bool` could be an instance of that class
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00:21:15	<boxscape>	hm, maybe that's something to put in a custom prelude when I use one, that avoids the orphan instances
00:22:00	<boxscape>	...or just import the Boolean package :)
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00:29:43	<doyougnu>	boxscape: isn't Data.Monoid.All and Data.Monoid.Any what you're looking for?
00:30:20	<boxscape>	doyougnu, no, because if I used that, it would be significantly longer and less readable than `\c -> predicate1 c && predicate2 c`
00:30:39	<dmwit>	doyougnu: I don't think so, that's the wrong direction: it's one class, where you can pick (&&) or (\|\|) depending on which instance you get. I think boxscape wants one class with (&&) and (\|\|) that you can implement for many types.
00:30:55	<boxscape>	yes
00:31:06	<dmwit>	:t liftA2 (&&)
00:31:07	<lambdabot>	Applicative f => f Bool -> f Bool -> f Bool
00:31:16	<boxscape>	okay yes that is better than using All
00:31:28	<boxscape>	but I wish we had a way to use liftA2 in a nice looking way with operators
00:31:47	<dmwit>	Actually, maybe doyougnu has got more going for him than you might think. (<>) does actually work on functions if they return an All or an Any.
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00:32:14	<dmwit>	But what are the chances your functions return one of those instead of a Bool? Pretty small.
00:32:27	<doyougnu>	dmwit: ah I see
00:32:49	<dmwit>	boxscape: I think the numeric prelude does have a suitable class.
00:32:53	<Axman6>	So glad to see how active this channel has become so quickly!
00:32:57	<dmwit>	So that could be one route.
00:33:16	<boxscape>	I'll check it out, thanks
00:33:58	<doyougnu>	I wonder if you could do something like this with GADTs, that would allow the Applicative f to take on different instances depending on the sub-ADT right?
00:35:37	<dmwit>	boxscape: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/numeric-prelude-0.4.3.3/docs/Algebra-Lattice.html, I think.
00:35:56	<boxscape>	ah, thanks
00:36:04	<boxscape>	% :t getAll <$> ((All <$> isSpace) <> (All <$> (/= '\n'))) -- this is the best I can think of with All
00:36:04	<yahb>	boxscape: Char -> Bool
00:36:10	<dmwit>	Looks like it doesn't have a function instance, but it easily can I think.
00:36:32	<dmwit>	% :t getAll . (All . isSpace) <> (All . (/= '\n'))
00:36:32	<yahb>	dmwit: ; <interactive>:1:30: error:; * Couldn't match type `All' with `Bool'; Expected: Char -> Bool; Actual: Char -> All; * In the second argument of `(<>)', namely `(All . (/= '\n'))'; In the expression: getAll . (All . isSpace) <> (All . (/= '\n'))
00:36:40	<dmwit>	% :t getAll . ((All . isSpace) <> (All . (/= '\n')))
00:36:40	<yahb>	dmwit: Char -> Bool
00:36:44	<boxscape>	ah yes that is better
00:37:04	<dmwit>	% :t ala
00:37:04	<yahb>	dmwit: forall {f :: * -> *} {s} {t}. (Functor f, Rewrapped s t, Rewrapped t s) => (Unwrapped s -> s) -> ((Unwrapped t -> t) -> f s) -> f (Unwrapped s)
00:37:13	<dmwit>	% :t ala All
00:37:13	<yahb>	dmwit: forall {f :: * -> *}. Functor f => ((Bool -> All) -> f All) -> f Bool
00:37:50	<dmwit>	Oh, this is a different ala than I was hoping for.
00:38:09	<boxscape>	% :i ala
00:38:09	<yahb>	boxscape: ala :: forall (f :: * -> *) s t. (Functor f, Rewrapping s t) => (Unwrapped s -> s) -> ((Unwrapped t -> t) -> f s) -> f (Unwrapped s) -- Defined in `Control.Lens.Wrapped'
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00:42:02	<boxscape>	various preludes also have <&&>
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00:43:52	<dmwit>	I wouldn't object to having a Heyting algebra class that `if` was polymorphic over.
00:44:16	<boxscape>	I guess that's possible with -XRebindableSyntax
00:44:25	<dmwit>	yep
00:44:43	<mniip>	why would that be a heyting algebra
00:46:07	<dmwit>	You need a lub and glb to stand in for (&&) and (\|\|), and you need either an upper or a lower bound so if can make a choice.
00:47:53	<dmwit>	I guess there are weaker structures than Heyting algebra that would be good enough.
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00:48:21	<mniip>	no?
00:48:25	<dmwit>	For some reason I had "Heyting algebra is the right choice" as a cached thought, and I didn't critically consider it.
00:48:28	<mniip>	you need the algebra to be boolean
00:48:41	<mniip>	so that the only objects are top and bottom
00:48:47	<mniip>	so that `if` can make a choice
00:49:41	<dmwit>	A test for bottom-ness (or top-ness) should be sufficient.
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00:50:10	<dmwit>	I don't see a reason to restrict it to algebras with only a top and bottom.
00:50:27	<dmwit>	The choice of whether bottom or top controlled which branch you took would be pretty arbitrary, of course.
00:51:41	<dmwit>	Or... hm.
00:54:26	<jaevanko>	Sometimes I wonder if it would be practical for Applicative instances to automatically lift things with pure/fmap/liftA2, so e.g. [1, 2, 3] + 4 would get lifted to (liftA2 (+) [1, 2, 3] (pure 4)). Could somebody convince me this is a horrible idea?
00:54:47	<jaevanko>	Maybe in a language that isn't Haskell...
00:54:49	<dmwit>	I guess one choice would be to have a class for ultrafilters, and use that to have an `if` with about the same typing rules as usual except the first thing is class-polymorphic. Or you could do something wilder, like `class If a where type family Branch a b; if' :: a -> b -> b -> Branch a b` + some laws.
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00:54:54	<sclv>	jaevanko: there's a slightly more verbose notion of this called "idiom brackets"
00:55:00	<sclv>	which is how applicative was first introduced
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00:55:25	<sclv>	also there's work on "effectful languages" like frank and a few others that have this sort of approach
00:55:55	<sclv>	so i'd say its not a bad impulse, and it underlay some of the initial work on the abstraction, but getting it Right and Nice and Usable turned out to be a high bar
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00:56:17	<dmwit>	jaevanko: It's a great idea, with one exception: functions are a monad, and this gets in the way a surprising amount, because you constantly have to decide whether each arrow is a monad thing or no (so you know whether to lift it).
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00:56:42	<jaevanko>	sclv: I was kind of thinking of it from the perspective of Julia/matlab/etc where array operations lift naturally to any number of dimensions, just beefed up a bit
00:56:48	<dmwit>	jaevanko: Lightweight Monadic Programming in OCaml develops the idea fully, and even goes as far as supporting automatic insertion of `lift` (from monad transformers), but doesn't allow the arrow monad.
00:57:18	<jaevanko>	dmwit: Yeah, I had some big issues when I defined a Num instance on ((->) a) :/
00:57:22	<jaevanko>	I might have that arrow backwards
00:57:49	<dmwit>	Oh, I like that instance a lot! What issues did you have? ...perhaps user-reading-code issues?
00:58:17	<dmwit>	jaevanko: (In fact, you can do `instance Num a => Num (F a)` for any `Applicative F`.)
00:58:36	<jaevanko>	It could very well be a pebcak issue, but I think it was some type errors
01:00:03	<dmwit>	% instance Num a => Num (b -> a) where (+) = liftA2 (+); (-) = liftA2 (-); () = liftA2 (); negate = fmap negate; abs = fmap abs; signum = fmap signum; fromInteger = pure . fromInteger
01:00:03	<yahb>	dmwit:
01:00:19	<dmwit>	% sqrt (sin^2 + cos^2) 42
01:00:19	<yahb>	dmwit: ; <interactive>:157:1: error:; * No instance for (Floating (Double -> Double)) arising from a use of `it'; (maybe you haven't applied a function to enough arguments?); * In the first argument of `print', namely `it'; In a stmt of an interactive GHCi command: print it
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01:00:36	<dmwit>	% (sin^2 + cos^2) 42
01:00:36	<yahb>	dmwit: 1.0
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01:00:59	<jaevanko>	Yeah, that's the kinda stuff I was trying
01:01:19	<jaevanko>	Starts to look almost like forth at that point, which could be kinda neat
01:02:15	<boxscape>	% map (3 * id^2 + id) [-3..3]
01:02:15	<yahb>	boxscape: [24,10,2,0,4,14,30]
01:02:15	<jaevanko>	Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, but it feels like making everything automatically generalize to Functor+Applicative is asking for type to be undecidable
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01:03:20	<dmwit>	Sure. But having everything automatically generalize for each of the existing Functor+Applicative is fine. ^_^
01:03:39	<jaevanko>	boxscape: if there was a Num instance for [a] could that be written (3 * id^2 + id) [-3..3] without the explicit map?
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01:03:56	<jaevanko>	How do you mean?
01:04:15	<dmwit>	(...and having everything automatically generalize to Functor+Applicative+Monad is also fine, but you need a different type inference algorithm than the one currently in GHC.)
01:04:29	<jaevanko>	Like the set of Applicatives in base is fine, or law-abiding Applicative?
01:04:52	<boxscape>	jaevanko not sure
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01:05:16	<jaevanko>	% instance Num a => Num [a] where (+) = liftA2 (+); (-) = liftA2 (-); () = liftA2 (); negate = fmap negate; abs = fmap abs; signum = fmap signum; fromInteger = pure . fromInteger
01:05:19	<dmwit>	jaevanko: I mean if instead of `instance (Applicative f, Num a) => Applicative (f a)` you write `instance Num a => Num [a]` and `instance Num a => Num (b -> a)` and `instance Num a => Num (Maybe a)` and and and...
01:05:54	<dmwit>	% (3*id^2 + id) [-3..3]
01:05:54	<yahb>	dmwit: ; <interactive>:161:1: error:; * No instance for (Num [Integer]) arising from a use of `it'; * In the first argument of `print', namely `it'; In a stmt of an interactive GHCi command: print it
01:06:07	<jaevanko>	Oh gotcha. Or if those instances were automatically written by the compiler when you define a new Applicative
01:06:16	<dmwit>	Oh, jaevanko you left a space before your last yahb command.
01:06:18	<jaevanko>	% instance Num a => Num [a] where (+) = liftA2 (+); (-) = liftA2 (-); () = liftA2 (); negate = fmap negate; abs = fmap abs; signum = fmap signum; fromInteger = pure . fromInteger
01:06:18	<yahb>	jaevanko:
01:06:25	<jaevanko>	% (3*id^2 + id) [-3..3]
01:06:26	<yahb>	jaevanko: [24,25,26,27,28,29,30,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3,-12,-11,-10,-9,-8,-7,-6,-21,-20,-19,-18,-17,-16,-15,-30,-29,-28,-27,-26,-25,-24,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3,-9,-8,-7,-6,-5,-4,-3,-15,-14,-13,-12,-11,-10,-9,-21,-20,-19,-18,-17,-16,-15,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3,-6,-5,-4,-3,-2,-1,0,-9,-8,-7,-6,-
01:06:42	<jaevanko>	Oh right, liftA2 on list does permutations
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01:07:00	<dmwit>	% instance Num a => Num (ZipList a) where (+) = liftA2 (+); (-) = liftA2 (-); () = liftA2 (); negate = fmap negate; abs = fmap abs; signum = fmap signum; fromInteger = pure . fromInteger
01:07:00	<yahb>	dmwit:
01:07:10	<dmwit>	% (3*id^2 + id) (ZipList [-3..3])
01:07:10	<yahb>	dmwit: ZipList {getZipList = [24,10,2,0,4,14,30]}
01:07:36	<dmwit>	Okay, I admit I'm slightly puzzled by that.
01:07:37	<ski>	i don't believe in the "automatically lift/generalize" thing. but i think the basic instinct is sound
01:07:38	<jaevanko>	Though I suppose if you had a list type that was parameterized over its length at the type level...
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01:08:11	<dmwit>	Oh, no I'm not, I just can't count.
01:08:25	<jaevanko>	Lol, I was expecting 3 too
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01:09:10	<jaevanko>	I can only imagine the type errors this could bring :D
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01:09:26	<dmwit>	Pfffft, waaaay more things typecheck this way! ^_^
01:09:33	<ski>	(my "reflective effectful syntax" was inspired by idiom brackets (and some other things))
01:10:11	<jaevanko>	ski: is that something I could search for on the web? I'm accruing reading materials rn
01:10:25	<ski>	.. not really
01:10:34	<jaevanko>	This whole diversion was inspired by this: conal.net/blog/posts/beautiful-differentiation, btw
01:10:36	<ski>	it mostly exists in my head
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01:10:53	<jaevanko>	I know the feeling
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01:12:25	<boxscape>	ski and in #haskell IRC logs :P
01:12:35	<jaevanko>	Is the idiom brackets terminology the reason the infix applicative functions are all <>-y?
01:12:51	<ski>	(there's still some things i'd like to work out with it .. and choosing some workable concrete syntax would be nice. but i think the basic idea is sound (and better than idiom brackets))
01:13:11	<ski>	jaevanko : hm. good question. i suspect not
01:13:24	<ski>	boxscape : yes
01:13:42	<dmwit>	jaevanko: They are all <>-y because the papers introducing Applicative used a diamond around its operators.
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01:13:58	<jaevanko>	Simple enough, I suppose
01:14:10	ski	would have guessed a circle
01:14:15	<boxscape>	jaevanko this is the original paper about idiom brackets - they originally used double square brackets, a bit like [[ ]]
01:14:16	<boxscape>	https://www.staff.city.ac.uk/~ross/papers/Applicative.pdf
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01:14:37	<boxscape>	well, not just about idiom brackets
01:14:49	<ski>	yea .. but that's not the same as the applicative operators
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01:50:25	<Carter>	Yeah
02:02:53	<boxscape>	@hoogle [(a, b)] -> ([a] -> c) -> ([b] -> d) -> (a, d)
02:02:54	<lambdabot>	No results found
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02:03:14	<boxscape>	hmm
02:04:22	<boxscape>	% :t \f g -> bimap f g . unzip
02:04:22	<yahb>	boxscape: forall {a} {b1} {b2} {d}. ([a] -> b1) -> ([b2] -> d) -> [(a, b2)] -> (b1, d)
02:04:23	<boxscape>	okay
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02:09:04	<ezzieyguywuf>	so, object-oriented programming isn't inherently imperitive programming. is it? for example, I'm reading a problem statement that says "implement the MyLinkedList class". So, by design, I have to ose OOP. but I can still use a functional programming style here, can't I?
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02:10:22	<ski>	yes
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02:10:31	<ezzieyguywuf>	thought so
02:10:57	<ezzieyguywuf>	i always get tripped up - whenever I see OOP I assume "oh boi, here we go", but (a) there's a time and place for it, and (b) it does not presume imperitive
02:11:04	<ezzieyguywuf>	and (c) sometimes you want imperitive
02:11:14	<ski>	mm
02:11:34	<ezzieyguywuf>	I'm actually curious as to how some of the c++20 stuff can translate into a more functional-friendly programming style
02:12:15	<ezzieyguywuf>	specifically it seems with "concepts" they're trying to mimic some of the behaviour we get with typeclasses
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02:22:37	<seL4>	writing formally verified program with 50 lines of haskell, how hard?
02:22:47	<seL4>	can I prove by hand?
02:27:15	<Axman6>	Yes
02:27:41	<Axman6>	Interesting choice of nickname seL4, are(/were) you part of trustworthy systems?
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02:28:04	<seL4>	no, but I would like to learn how to write formally verified code
02:28:18	<seL4>	how hard is formally verified assembly
02:29:12	<dibblego>	you want the isabelle proof assistant
02:29:22	<Axman6>	Go and look at the seL4 project and find out ;)
02:29:35	<seL4>	I thought isabelle uses c not assembly
02:29:54	<seL4>	I'm reading book about coq but that uses gallina
02:30:11	<Axman6>	Go and look at the seL4 project, there's probably no better resource
02:31:43	<seL4>	I saw the website, which link?
02:32:02	<seL4>	read faq, etc. don't see formally verified assembly
02:32:34	<seL4>	read whitepaper
02:34:13	<seL4>	ok I see it
02:35:11	<seL4>	rip its a pdf
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02:36:16	<Axman6>	it's all open source, all the code is available on github\
02:37:32	<seL4>	yeah I cloned it, but how does that teach me formally verified assembly?
02:38:21	<dibblego>	do a an undergrad research thesis, that's how the-person-I-live-with is learning it
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02:39:06	<seL4>	ok, will try
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02:43:36	<Axman6>	seL4: to learn cutting edge research, you're going to need to read some research papers, and almost certainly spend a lot of time learning the findamentals of softeware verification
02:43:54	<seL4>	yeah I will read book about coq
02:44:07	<seL4>	is it possible to write all proofs by hand
02:44:18	<Axman6>	things like Hoare triples, and... functional equivalence? IT's been a long time since I've looked into it
02:45:11	<seL4>	so it is possible?
02:45:57	<Axman6>	sure
02:46:02	<keltono>	seL4: you should read software foundations
02:46:05	<keltono>	https://softwarefoundations.cis.upenn.edu/
02:46:57	<seL4>	yeah thats the one I found! no pdf, just html
02:49:23	<seL4>	wait so RFNOMNT can block syscalls?
02:49:46	<seL4>	oops, my bad. thanks
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03:15:10	<Carter>	Huh.
03:15:37	<Carter>	Axman6 dibblego: I read that the sel4 team got dissolved :(
03:16:07	<dibblego>	Data61 now has very low wattage light bulbs in charge of all the things
03:16:19	<Carter>	Bummer
03:16:31	<Axman6>	It won't be dying, you can be poretty sure of that. It's probably a good thing - but the organisation had no idea how valuable it was as a group
03:17:44	<Carter>	Like, zomg I so wanted to figure out how to have it be a way to manage stuff as a sortah user space middle ware for low level stuff
03:18:52	<dibblego>	it may be a blessing in disguise then
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03:19:17	<Axman6>	I think it probably will be
03:19:28	<Axman6>	CSIRO can't have nice things
03:19:29	<dibblego>	since NICTA dissolving, Data61/CSIRO has increased effectiveness at doing nothing at all, and with that out of the way...
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03:29:59	<davean>	seL4 was a real exciting thing to have out there I wanted to work with
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03:33:54	<Axman6>	It will still be around
03:36:20	<davean>	theres levels of around
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05:36:22	<jackdk>	Is anyone aware of a library that provides an optic like `Iso' (Fix f) (f (Fix f))`?
05:36:48	<jackdk>	I mean, `iso unFix Fix` is not hard to write, but it might be nice and all
05:39:35	<dibblego>	_Wrapped ?
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05:43:34	<jackdk>	I would have expected that to work, but it didn't, because it couldn't expand a typefamily and conclude equality. I used `coerced`instead
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05:54:21	<dibblego>	which Fix you using?
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05:56:14	<jackdk>	Data.Fix.Fix from data-fix
05:56:44	<jackdk>	which appears to have an instance, but didn't typecheck when I tried to use it (as the _Prism part of an `instance AsPrism (Fix f) (Fix f)` instance
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06:08:25	<dibblego>	I don't think it has an instance?
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06:23:56	<jackdk>	appears so.
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08:58:47	<Jon>	this channel is the third-largest on Libera at the moment
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09:08:31	<Taneb>	That's because Haskell is so fun to use
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09:12:23	<juri_>	indeed. :)
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09:14:14	<seeg>	https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/nfqw0t/thoughts_on_the_state_of_the_freenode_irc_network/ maybe this is the reason?
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09:38:08	<mniip>	seeg, other communities have had similar and actually stronger/more official repsonses
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09:53:54	<seeg>	maybe it's about the influence of the person who's saying that, rather than response being strong
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11:32:04	<safinaskar>	hi. i showed up in #haskell in freenode a lot during this months and asked lots of questions. you helped me a lot, thank you! with your help i was able to publish my first package on hackage: https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2021-May/134004.html . as you can see, i still use my haskell style, i. e. i use curly braces, monadic "do" and fully qualified ids
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11:53:48	<juri_>	safinaskar: congratulations. :)
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11:54:54	<Hecate>	congratulations safinaskar :)
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12:00:19	<safinaskar>	juri_: Hecate: thanks :)
12:01:25	<arahael>	safinaskar: Congrats. :) Good job on avoiding needless polishing. Once it works, it works.
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12:07:46	<nurupo>	08,02safinaskar: congrats!
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12:10:56	<[exa]>	nurupo: pls avoid colors, they may be a bit intrusive. No matter now really, but when there's traffic, it makes the channel completely messy :]
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12:11:42	<hpc>	maybe we can get syntax highlighting in lambdabot
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12:14:46	<nurupo>	but this channel allows colors
12:14:59	<nurupo>	why avoid them, colors are fun!
12:15:08	<nurupo>	use all the colors!
12:16:06	<arahael>	nurupo: It's not that the channel "alows" them, it's the client, for me, that was gnarly. It's the only text now here that's bright yellow, underlined, on bright blue background, in an otherwise plain window full of white on black text.
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12:52:14	<allbery_b>	actually it's possible to configure the channel via chanserv to drop colors
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13:02:32	<ski>	colors (and bold, underlined, inverse, italic) can occasionally be useful, but should, imho, be used sparingly (certainly not using multiple of them at the same time, as a matter of course, in ordinary messages, imho. especially changing background color (or using inverse) tends to stand out more, but also changing foreground can mess with some people's settings (preferred default backgrounds vary))
13:03:50	<ski>	using them for syntax-highlighting (or semantically highlighting some portions of code) could possibly be useful
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13:06:06	<ski>	(i've found myself occasionally using bold, sometimes underlined, in conversations. often these can be rendered as "*bold" and "_underlined_" (which some clients will automatically apply those attributes to), but that is less desirable for subphrases of formal languages (such as Haskell))
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13:07:27	<ski>	(er, that should be "bold")
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13:34:01	<maerwald>	so, is there an actual channel rule for/against colors?
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13:35:14	<bin_>	I don't know, but it's a bit rude. arahael is correct that it's unpleasantly garish in many clients.
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13:38:05	<ski>	maerwald : no
13:38:49	<maerwald>	ok, then the normal spam rules of the server apply, I guess and we can move on with our lives
13:38:50	<ski>	afaiac, the main channel rule is "Be nice, or else."
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15:06:34	<boxscape>	it's weird to me that monad transformer runners are not flipped. I keep writing `flip evalState foo . flip runReaderT bar $ do {...}`
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15:07:30	<boxscape>	ah, I suppose it's because they're record fields
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15:22:45	<maerwald>	that's not a reason
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15:25:32	<tomsmeding>	well it's a reason for sure
15:25:45	<tomsmeding>	whether it's a good motivation is a different question :p
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15:30:52	<garff>	I'm trying to test something and I'm a little bit confused about the answers I'm getting from the test report produced by stack test --covergage. I got this function that I'm calling and there is just nooo.. way that's it not getting executed. Despite that the return value of the function still comes up yellow and
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15:31:07	<garff>	And the function does come through "passed" and do produce the correct result.. meaning - the different parts must be executed.. otherwise the correct answers could never be executed.
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15:31:26	<garff>	I tried in haskell on freenode but was directed here -thanks for the good work!
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15:48:42	<fart>	/join #haskell-offtopic
15:48:45	<fart>	oop
15:49:04	<fart>	I'm glad this channel has logging so my failures are not only public but recorded
15:49:52	<maerwald>	at least you got a great nickname
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16:09:56	<fart>	/join #rust
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16:10:03	<fart>	omg. I give up.
16:11:21	<wenzel>	fart, your shame is being recorded
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16:15:04	<zzz>	just do haskell. it's the superior language anyway
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16:16:37	<fendor>	there is a rust irc?
16:16:48	<maerwald>	yeah, not official
16:17:09	<maerwald>	official used to be mozilla IRC server, but that's also discontinued afair
16:17:36	<fendor>	yeah, didn't they move to discord?
16:21:39	<eggplantade>	The rust discord server is very active
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16:23:41	<maerwald>	discord feels like a place for esport kiddies
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16:25:35	<kuribas>	how is haskell superior when rust has a different use case?
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16:39:49	<zzz>	haskell is so superior that it doesnt have a use case
16:40:32	<zzz>	(mozilla moved to matrix btw. discord maybe a bridge?)
16:41:14	<maerwald>	I think rust is probably superior on the paper in most regards, but it's WAY more verbose
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16:42:19	<Vq>	I like to call rust the ugly ML dialect.
16:42:44	<zzz>	depending on what you mean by "on the paper". im inclined to bet on haskell if we're talking "on paper"
16:42:52	<Vq>	I quite like rust, but it doesn't look as pretty as other ML languages.
16:42:53	<maerwald>	platform support, cross compiling, verified TLS implementation, less ecosystem fragmentation, predictable performance, low memory footprint, good debuggers, ...
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16:43:58	<maerwald>	I would do it for work, but it's more typing :p
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16:44:14	<zzz>	who likes predictable performance? i want to feel the rush of being alive
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16:45:36	<maerwald>	zzz: after having worked on a haskell platform that took 64GB of memory, multiple failed consulting attempts and a couple of years to fix memory issues... I do care about it
16:46:02	<maerwald>	some of it was due to architectural issues, other things was haskell being haskell
16:46:17	<zzz>	bah... premature optimization
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16:46:58	<Cale>	zzz: What, are you going to go up to 128GB first? :)
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16:47:26	<maerwald>	sure, pretty easy if you find someone like Cale, who probably knows GHC internals and can fix it in one weekend ;)
16:48:10	<zzz>	whatever it takes unitl the compiler starts showing signs of sentience. then it can take care of optimization for you
16:48:12	<maerwald>	having to know GHC internals IS the problem
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16:48:55	<maerwald>	it's already hard enough to keep up with the language itself, let alone esoteric performance things
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16:49:21	<maerwald>	but... tbf... most programs will never get to the point that this becomes a problem
16:49:25	<maerwald>	but some do
16:49:26	<Cale>	I really wish we could cool it on the questionable language extensions
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16:51:01	<Cale>	I've been working on a change to let GHC do unpacking of sum-typed fields, and running into some frustrating LinearHaskell nonsense.
16:52:19	<maerwald>	that would disrupt a lot of PhD thesis, I guess :P
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16:56:56	<zzz>	i see harm in success at cost of PhD thesis
16:57:54	<Rembane>	Isn't that one of the tensions of Haskell? Research language vs industrial language?
16:57:59	<Cale>	Not all Ph.D. theses are created equal when it comes to practicality.
16:58:36	<maerwald>	I believe the solution is interoperable languages, instead of one language that does it all. MS is closest to it with C# -> F# -> F*
16:59:18	<maerwald>	but that requires more pragmatism than we have in the haskell community (and more resources)
16:59:57	<Rembane>	I think resources are a bigger problem than pragmatism in this case, and also what the community optimizes for.
16:59:59	<Cale>	One thing which would be really good is if we can sort out GHC so that it's more modular.
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17:00:59	<boxscape>	any idea why I might be getting "Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.Prim.many: combinator 'many' is applied to a parser that accepts an empty string" when the stack trace shows I'm in this function?
17:00:59	<boxscape>	nonNewLineSpaces = skipMany $ satisfy \c -> isSpace c && c /= '\n'
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17:01:52	<Cale>	Don't you need another $ there? But yeah, that's not a parser that can accept an empty string, so I'm not sure.
17:02:10	<boxscape>	not with one of those questionable extensions, BlockArguments
17:02:18	<Cale>	haha, okay
17:02:23	<Cale>	Where'd you get the stack trace from?
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17:02:46	<boxscape>	ghc check-notes.hs -prof -fprof-auto -fprof-cafs, followed by cat tmp \| ./check-notes +RTS -xc
17:02:58	<Cale>	Ah, okay, a cost-centre trace
17:03:15	<boxscape>	ah, yes I suppose that's a more accurate name
17:03:46	<boxscape>	output looks like this which seems like it would mean that it has to be from that skipMany https://paste.tomsmeding.com/3p9tmXnx
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17:05:34	<Cale>	What does your parser look like? Maybe the problem is just somewhere nearby?
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17:07:12	<boxscape>	yeah it contains a bunch of manys and some parsers that can produce empty strings. I guess I'll go through them and see disabling which one fixes it, maybe I'm misunderstanding how the trace works.
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17:07:23	<boxscape>	s/produce/accept
17:07:37	<Cale>	boxscape: Perhaps nonNewLineSpaces is being used in a many?
17:07:51	<Cale>	What does singleLineNotes look like?
17:08:52	<Cale>	I wouldn't trust the trace too much, they're often kinda... approximate. They mean a whole lot less than you'd want for debugging, but can be better than nothing.
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17:10:24	<boxscape>	this is singleLineNotes, there's a bunch of manys in here, let me check if I'm inadverntantly nesting them somewhere https://paste.tomsmeding.com/W3XdvVtm
17:10:25	<Cale>	It might also help to test your parsers individually, perhaps just do some quick examples in GHCi using testParser -- usually a problem like this one will show up immediately if it's going to show up, unless it's being buried by a conditional somehow
17:10:32	<boxscape>	yeah that's a good idea
17:11:32	<Cale>	ah
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17:11:35	<Cale>	I think I might see it
17:11:48	<Cale>	pSingleLineNote will accept an empty string
17:12:04	<Cale>	and you're applying many to it in singleLineNotes
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17:12:46	<Cale>	Or wait, how does manyTill work again...
17:12:48	<boxscape>	hmm but it calls pNoteStart which should always parse `string "Note"`?
17:13:17	<Cale>	ah, yeah, I'm wrong
17:13:24	<Cale>	It at least has to consume the terminator
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17:15:40	<Cale>	Wait, how do `sepBy` and <* associate?
17:15:51	<Cale>	I would be writing way more parens than this :)
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17:16:32	<Cale>	noteSeparator is a skipMany
17:16:32	<boxscape>	might be a good idea
17:16:43	<Cale>	hmm
17:17:08	<Cale>	Nah, that doesn't look problematic...
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17:20:05	<boxscape>	btw I just noticed that I'm very clearly misunderstanding the trace, because to me it looks like it says that pNoteStart calls noteSeparator, which can't be
17:21:27	<boxscape>	pSingleLineNote works in ghci, singleLineNotes produces the same error, so that's a start
17:22:12	<Cale>	What happens with many pSingleLineNote ?
17:22:23	<Cale>	Does that work?
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17:22:34	<boxscape>	that's fine
17:22:37	<Cale>	ohhhh
17:22:52	<Cale>	many pSingleLineNote obviously accepts the empty string
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17:23:05	<Cale>	noteSeparator also does
17:23:05	<boxscape>	ah, it's sepBy
17:23:32	<Cale>	and so sepBy has the unfortunate task of trying to separate a bunch of potentially empty strings with potentially empty string
17:23:34	<Cale>	s
17:23:56	<boxscape>	yeah
17:24:03	<boxscape>	thanks for your help in finding it :)
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17:25:03	<boxscape>	luckily fixing it just consists of removing that `many`
17:25:13	<Cale>	and yeah, parsers do a bunch of continuation passing under the hood, so you probably can't trust any of the jank which attempts to approximate what an imperative stack trace would look like to work on them
17:25:22	<boxscape>	Ah, I see
17:26:07	<Cale>	I often wish we didn't try so hard to make fake stack traces, and had better support for just displaying real stack traces.
17:26:19	<Cale>	The problem is, most of the things on the stack won't have names
17:26:30	<Cale>	They'll be pattern matches happening at various points in the program
17:26:37	<Cale>	Or function applications
17:26:44	<boxscape>	hm, yeah
17:27:25	<Cale>	also, it'll be quite strange a lot of the time, after inlining and all that kind of thing happens
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17:27:43	<Cale>	But I think it's possible to get something useful in theory
17:28:14	<boxscape>	I suppose with the right compiler options it won't inline though, at least
17:28:17	<Cale>	Maybe hang on to a source-annotated table of all the things which potentially go on the stack
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17:28:52	<Cale>	and then when you're inlining stuff, you keep pointers into that table :)
17:29:13	<boxscape>	yeah that sounds like it could work
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20:02:57	<boxscape>	https://twitter.com/tweagio/status/1396918930355023873 "Haskell folks! What would you like @RaeHaskell to make one of his bite-sized videos about?"
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20:05:39	<Square>	Any adice on rolling a ircbot in haskell?
20:05:39	<Square>	advice
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20:06:48	<Square>	like, if theres some good non bloated library to kick you off?
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20:07:39	<glguy>	Square: for something low-level you can build on top of the library I use for my IRC client: https://github.com/glguy/irc-core/blob/v2/bot/src/Main.hs <-example
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20:09:15	<ixlun`>	Hi all, is there a function that can take an array and use that as arguments to a function?
20:09:15	<Square>	glguy, thanks!
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20:11:22	<fresheyeball>	hey everyone, I made it over the wall!
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20:12:11	<fresheyeball>	ok, asking here, not on freenode
20:12:18	<Rembane>	Welcome fresheyeball !
20:12:19	<fresheyeball>	What is the state of Cloud Haskell?
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20:12:25	<fresheyeball>	Rembane:++
20:12:50	<Rembane>	Last time I checked it was dead, but it was a long time ago, so someone might've resurrected it.
20:13:01	<boxscape>	ixlun I'm not aware of one, but why do you need such a function?
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20:51:29	<boxscape>	hm, so with non-backtracking parsers, I would expect `parse (string "foo" <\|> string "z") "" "foz"` to first try "foo", consume 'f' and 'o', and then try "z", and since the only input that's not consumed yet is "z" I would expect it to succeed
20:51:44	<boxscape>	instead it says "unexpected "z", expecting "foo""
20:51:50	<boxscape>	where did my thinking go wrong here?
20:52:08	<boxscape>	(specifically I'm using Pasec)
20:52:18	<boxscape>	s/Pasec/Parsec
20:53:17	<boxscape>	oh
20:53:20	<boxscape>	I should just read docs
20:53:42	<boxscape>	(<\|>) docs say " If p fails without consuming any input, parser q is tried."
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20:57:54	<monochrom>	string is not atomic wrt <\|>
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21:02:10	<fresheyeball>	test
21:02:25	<fresheyeball>	ok sweet, my nick is registered and secure
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21:14:57	<tomjaguarpaw>	Should I expect coverage checking using pattern synonyms to be basically broken in 8.10.2?
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21:23:40	<glguy>	tomjaguarpaw: is that specifically about 8.10.2 as opposed to the current 8.10.4?
21:23:45	<glguy>	or 8.10 in general?
21:23:54	<tomjaguarpaw>	I general I guess. I only have 8.10.2
21:24:10	<tomjaguarpaw>	The same is true on 8.6.5. I just named the most recent GHC I have.
21:24:32	<glguy>	tomjaguarpaw: What constitutes broken? COMPLETE pragmas not working or being needed?
21:24:33	<tomjaguarpaw>	Sebastian Graf did a lot of work on the coverage checker, but I'm not sure when it went in.
21:24:48	<tomjaguarpaw>	COMPLETE? I thought that was for typeclasses.
21:24:52	<tomjaguarpaw>	Never used it for pattern synonyms.
21:25:18	<tomjaguarpaw>	It seems like when using a simple pattern synonym GHC can't tell when you've provided exhaustive cases.
21:25:25	<glguy>	https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/pragmas.html#complete-pragma
21:25:38	<glguy>	typeclasses have MINIMAL or something else like that
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21:25:53	<tomjaguarpaw>	"On its own, the checker is very naive and assumes that any match involving a pattern synonym will fail" Oh I see
21:26:02	<tomjaguarpaw>	Ah yes, MINIMAL, that's right.
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21:26:14	<tomjaguarpaw>	OK, I just completely misunderstood how coverage checking works for pattern synonyms.
21:26:25	<tomjaguarpaw>	Thanks glguy
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21:29:11	<boxscape>	should I prefer `T.pack . unlines` or `T.unlines . map T.pack`, where T is Data.Text?
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21:30:15	<glguy>	I don't have numbers, but I'd prefer T.unlines . map T.pack
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21:30:35	<glguy>	hmm, actually I'm not sure, I take back having a preference
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21:33:05	<liskin>	tomjaguarpaw: GHC 9.0 relnotes mention "The revamp of the pattern-match coverage checker that started in 8.10 concludes with this release and implements the novel Lower Your Guards algorithm.
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21:33:41	<liskin>	not sure what it means in practice tho
21:33:57	<boxscape>	liskin I don't think that change affects pattern synonyms without a COMPLETE pragma
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21:35:16	<boxscape>	(SPJ gave a talk about what it means a while ago https://youtu.be/SWO5OzSxD6Y )
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All times are in UTC on 2021-05-24.