Logs on 2021-05-25 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:15:33	<omen>	is this chat usually so quiet?
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00:15:55	<boxscape>	there are active and less active times
00:16:00	<Axman6>	it's less than a week old, there's no such thing a usual. but yes, that is the nature of IRC
00:16:22	<Axman6>	sometimes we go for hours without anyone talking, others it's non-stop
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00:16:48	<Axman6>	(until it stops, obviously)
00:17:12	<sm>	traffic certainly seems way down, on both old and new channels, during the Recent Events
00:17:16	<trueboxguy>	Ye
00:17:31	<sm>	I miss the #haskell river :/
00:17:38	<trueboxguy>	what's that?
00:17:41	<trueboxguy>	also cute name
00:17:53	<sm>	the stream of chat. Even if some of it was annoying :)
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00:19:22	<Axman6>	I hope that once we make the official decision to move and tell users to move, things will pick back up again. Need to change all the references to freenode too
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00:19:31	<sm>	I hope so too
00:19:33	<boxscape>	huh, names used for "import as" can contain dots. I don't think I ever tried that before.
00:19:53	<glguy>	My favorite new import thing is ImportQualifiedPost
00:19:55	<trueboxguy>	I think the decision is somewhat confirmed
00:20:08	<boxscape>	glguy Yeah I've started using that
00:20:08	<Axman6>	like import Data.Bytestring.Lazy as BS.Lazy?
00:20:20	<Axman6>	glguy: it's like the best thing about using DAML
00:20:24	<boxscape>	oh yeah I guess that one is fairly common
00:20:26	<glguy>	https://www.haskell.org/irc/ points here now
00:20:27	<Axman6>	so much neater
00:20:34	<Axman6>	excellent
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00:21:18	<boxscape>	links to logs there is still broken though
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00:21:37	<trueboxguy>	lots of stuff is broken on haskell.org
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00:22:00	<trueboxguy>	lots of the links on the wiki to haskell.org are dead
00:22:05	<omen>	is it not FUNCTIONAL :D
00:22:10	<omen>	sorry
00:22:15	<trueboxguy>	omen: you use haskell?
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00:22:32	<omen>	no. I have tried to make one of my friend learn it that loves math
00:22:38	<Axman6>	isn't that why we're all here?
00:22:51	<trueboxguy>	nah omen was just patrolling the network
00:23:19	<Axman6>	I'm getting to dislike the maths/haskell connection - it's true but not in a way that I think most people expect
00:23:35	<boxscape>	do you dislike the connection itself or the way people talk about it?
00:23:37	<trueboxguy>	it was true for me but i think i like maths in a different way
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00:24:04	<lbseale>	I was attracted to Haskell 100% because it's purely functional ... I know little math and come from engineering
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00:24:42	<lbseale>	To me, the concepts are not that difficult if you don't explain them in terms of math
00:25:06	<trueboxguy>	If the person isn't aware of the maths
00:25:08	<Axman6>	yeah - IMO a better reason to get people into Haskell is that once it becomes practical for you, it's an excellent engineering tool. Refactoring is a joy instead of something to be dreaded
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00:25:27	<trueboxguy>	Honestly like my usage of Haskell is largely for meme purposes
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00:25:35	<omen>	don't matter what anyone says, it's sometimes priceless feature to have real functions
00:25:37	<trueboxguy>	it then just became my main language
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00:26:00	<trueboxguy>	I think the fact that certain aspects of it resemble maths is a good sign
00:26:08	<trueboxguy>	It shows it's easy to reason about and to represent facts
00:26:24	<lbseale>	I have just worked on too much code that is state-dependent, and it's outrageously hard to understand what it's going
00:26:28	<lbseale>	*doing
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00:26:30	<trueboxguy>	Ye
00:26:32	<trueboxguy>	I use programming languages as a tool for thought / instantiating logic
00:26:38	<trueboxguy>	So it's enjoyable when it's close to how I think
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00:26:58	<trueboxguy>	Like the most important aspect of this is the type system
00:27:10	<trueboxguy>	but of course the language has to be functional
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00:27:30	<boxscape>	I wonder if someone has made a language with imperative type-level programming
00:27:42	<trueboxguy>	Haskell already does it
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00:27:46	<lbseale>	OCaml?
00:27:50	<trueboxguy>	rofl
00:28:00	<boxscape>	haskell does imperative type-level programming?
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00:28:37	<boxscape>	Not too familiar with what's possible on the type level with ocaml
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00:29:09	<trueboxguy>	I mean I feel like someone could hack something together
00:29:26	<trueboxguy>	There's no reason Haskell shouldn't be able to do it (except for the difficulty in doing type level programming in haskell)
00:29:32	<trueboxguy>	I've done a bit of it though
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00:29:38	<boxscape>	I suppose that's true, yeah
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00:29:54	<trueboxguy>	I once had the only difference for a day of AOC be the type of the output
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00:31:05	<boxscape>	nice
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00:32:12	<trueboxguy>	lots of people with box in their name
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00:32:28	<du>	/nick dubox
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00:33:25	<trueboxguy>	there are lots of catamorphism enjoyers at my school, if that's of interest to you
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00:37:31	<trueboxguy>	Ouch
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00:38:24	<arahael>	trueboxguy: if you do everything in IO, it's pretty conventional.
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00:39:06	<trueboxguy>	arahael: which message are you referring to?
00:39:11	<arahael>	boxscape: it's mostly similar except haskell is lazy by default so side effects tend to have to be very strictly avoided, but if you do everything in IO it's probably similar.
00:39:25	<arahael>	trueboxguy: the imperative style question.
00:40:05	<trueboxguy>	arahael: but you can't do that at the type level (for now :wink:)
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00:43:11	<m_shiraeeshi>	isn't IO contagious? I mean, if you want to do IO then you have to base your stack on IO monad
00:43:40	<m_shiraeeshi>	although you can base it on MonadBase and substitute IO in main, right?
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00:44:45	<m_shiraeeshi>	MonadIO doesn't count because it can be considered the same as IO
00:45:26	<wenzel>	m_shiraeeshi, it depends on context, there could be MonadIO when you need it, but other monads don’t have to have MonadIO in theirs constraints. still they would be compatible
00:46:44	<m_shiraeeshi>	wenzel, yeah, if you don't need to use liftIO in some action, then you can omit the MonadIO constraint, I see
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01:33:18	<koz>	I'm a bit confused how to use tasty's 'withResource' combinator.
01:33:56	<koz>	It takes a 'IO a -> TestTree', but I have no idea how you'd 'escape' the IO here. I can easily do 'IO a -> IO TestTree', but not 'IO a -> TestTree'. Am I missing something?
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01:38:15	<boxscape>	koz there's an example here https://ro-che.info/articles/2013-12-29-tasty-resources-2
01:39:27	<koz>	boxscape: This only works because 'Assertion' is just IO.
01:39:36	<koz>	This is thus specific to tasty-hunit, which I am not using.
01:39:52	<boxscape>	ah
01:41:21	<Cale>	koz: Apparently if you need to access the resource, you're expected to just put it in an IORef or something, and get it from there in the tests
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01:41:45	<koz>	Cale: OK, I'll just do it a slightly different way.
01:41:59	<Cale>	(Or were you asking something else?)
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01:42:46	<Cale>	I don't really know why it wouldn't be withResource :: IO a -> (a -> IO ()) -> (a -> TestTree) -> TestTree
01:42:54	<koz>	I probably was, but upon further reflection, it's not important.
01:43:06	<koz>	As for why it is that way, the link boxscape posted explains.
01:44:36	<Cale>	ohhh, I'm looking at ancient documentation for tasty, so there's a third source of confusion
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01:44:41	<Cale>	Thanks Google, lol
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01:48:27	<Cale>	koz: So, yeah, you just execute the IO action it gives you from inside your individual tests to get hold of the resource that was allocated, but maybe that's no longer important for whatever reason.
01:48:51	<koz>	Ah, OK. So I just use whatever their 'do IO thing' is.
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04:32:53	<glguy>	int-e, ok thanks
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05:51:44	<fabfianda>	hi everyone, is there any lib for generating OpenApi json specs for a scotty application as there is for Servant?
05:51:44	<fabfianda>	I can't seem to find anything. I assume it is simpler in Servant because it requires you to create types to describe the API anyway.
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05:52:45	<dminuoso>	fabfianda: You can use openapi3 directly
05:53:34	<dminuoso>	For something like scotty it would require some kind of free monad representation, such that you could symbolically evaluate it
05:54:08	<dminuoso>	So I'm afraid you have to handroll the specs
05:55:17	<fabfianda>	thanks, yes I think I'll create some helper functions to streamline the specs creation
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05:55:34	<dminuoso>	Be sure to use the lens/optics helpers.
05:55:45	<dminuoso>	They make openapi3 much eaiser to work with :)
05:55:59	<dminuoso>	Especially the classy lenses/optics
05:56:42	<dminuoso>	(or wait, I meant the OverloadedLabels ones)
05:57:55	<fabfianda>	sure! love lenses
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05:59:11	<dminuoso>	swagger2/openapi3 miss one important thing though: property descriptions on objects. :(
05:59:47	<fabfianda>	got it
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06:13:01	<fabfianda>	btw, a big thank you to the whole community! . Been a dev for 20+ years but Haskell has been a game changer for me.
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06:35:46	<gonz_>	fabfianda: What would you say has been the biggest change and what's been the most positive difference for you with Haskell?
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07:03:53	<fabfianda>	well, type safety for sure (as web dev I was used to dynamically typed languages) but more importantly it changed my mindset about problem solving. OOP and imperative programming always felt kind of flawed, while functional programming is so natural to me. And, finally, easy refactoring Is Haskell killer feature, gives me literally peace of mind, something I had never felt before :)
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07:05:44	<Axman6>	The work I'm doing at the moment is mostly adding a field to a bunch of data types, and following the type errors until I've found everywhere I need to update it
07:10:37	<dminuoso>	At times I wonder whether that kind of refactoring should receive more attention.
07:11:00	<dminuoso>	Most of that work seems very repetitive, almost as if this could be automated a lot more easily.
07:11:36	<dminuoso>	Didn't Sandy Maguire work on some tooling around graphical programming (with the intent to make programming on tablets a possibility)?
07:11:37	<Axman6>	I really do want a tool to do it for me, 90% of this work is very mechanical, but it's syntactically not that easy to automate (if we had decent structural change tools it might be easier - I've wanted lenses over Haskell syntax for a long time)
07:12:13	<dminuoso>	Ah, `wingman` is what I was thinking of
07:12:23	<dminuoso>	https://haskellwingman.dev/
07:13:53	<Axman6>	that wouldn't help us much here sadly
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07:15:17	<Axman6>	I want to be able to do things like: Given this list of fully wualified type names, add a field to these types with name foo and type Bar - then in the places where we create those types, (somehow) add a call to the function that gets a Bar and adds that field
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07:17:46	<dminuoso>	On emacs at the very least, with ghcide+compilation-mode or lsp/lsp-haskell/lsp-treemacs you can navigate around all error points quickly
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07:17:57	<dminuoso>	So there's that
07:17:59	<Axman6>	it's really mechanical if you have something type aware
07:18:08	<Axman6>	yeah lsp has made this much more pleasant that's for sure
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07:18:11	<dminuoso>	Axman6: I think wingman is already on the right approach here.
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07:18:24	<dminuoso>	At least based on what I heard from Sandy about it on haskell weekly
07:18:28	<Axman6>	HLS really, I guess
07:18:31	<dminuoso>	yeah
07:18:42	<dminuoso>	If only the resource requirements weren't as hefty
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07:18:52	<dminuoso>	It feels like I need to quadruple my memory this year.
07:18:59	<Axman6>	Our dev machines have 64GB RAM for a reason :P
07:19:18	<dminuoso>	Sitting on 16GiB here.
07:19:36	<Axman6>	my personal machine is 32 and that seems to work well
07:19:58	<dminuoso>	Yeah, my next laptop will have 48GiB soldered in probably
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07:20:13	<dminuoso>	But I need that much memory to run a fleet of cumulus linux VMs anyway
07:20:14	<Axman6>	... according to iStat Menues, VS Code is using 40GB at the moment, most of that will be the lsp for DAML though
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07:20:35	<dminuoso>	Ouch
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07:21:44	<Axman6>	heh, yeah damlc is using 27GB - I should restart it...
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08:51:35	<Flonk>	Did yall really migrate both offtopic channels? :D
08:52:47	←	felixphew parts (~felix@cssa/committee/felix) ()
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08:54:05	<dminuoso>	Im looking for libraries to assist in making simple request/respond CLI tools with. Something that asks for a bunch of things, receives things from STDIN, and perhaps has some simple help integration.
08:54:28	<dminuoso>	Trying to be non-specific, since Im wondering what kind of options I have, short of handrolling the whole thing
08:55:34	<kritzefitz>	dminuoso, so input should come from STDIN interactively, rather than providing everything on the command line beforehand?
08:55:48	<dminuoso>	Right
08:57:09	<dminuoso>	haskeline comes to mind, if I want to handroll the entire interaction
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09:02:45	<kritzefitz>	dminuoso, I didn't look into the details, but http://hackage.haskell.org/package/wizards looks like it might help you.
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09:07:49	<dminuoso>	kritzefitz: Oh, that looks exactly like I was looking for.
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09:19:33	<Guest56>	test
09:19:50	<Guest56>	anyone here
09:20:11	<Guest56>	am i doing this correctly
09:20:21	<int-e>	no
09:20:34	<Guest56>	hi Bertram
09:20:55	<dminuoso>	Guest56: Hi, yes you are. :)
09:21:00	<int-e>	it's customary to call people by their nicks
09:21:10	<int-e>	(int-e in my case)
09:21:16	<Guest56>	oh okay
09:21:28	<dminuoso>	Nice, so Libera already has IRC first timers!
09:21:50	<Guest56>	I came here from archlinux notification email
09:22:04	<Guest56>	it didn't let me post
09:22:18	<Guest56>	i need to be identified with a service
09:22:27	<Guest56>	what does it mean?
09:22:55	<dminuoso>	Type the following into your chat bar: /msg nickserv help register
09:23:13	<dminuoso>	And follow the instructions
09:23:14	<mniip>	how do you end up in #haskell if you were going for #archlinux
09:23:31	<dminuoso>	Im guessing their client has a way of showing other channels, and Haskell likely is one of the most populated ones?
09:23:32	<Taneb>	Guest56: there is a guide to registring a nickname here: https://libera.chat/guides/registration
09:23:36	<int-e>	Guest56: but first pick a nick you actually want
09:23:39	<dminuoso>	Presumably one of the few ones without +r
09:23:59	<Guest56>	thanks dminuoso but in libera.chat page said no signup required for using kiwiirc
09:23:59	<int-e>	(and that is not registered yet shrugs)
09:24:13	<dminuoso>	Guest56: Right, but some project/channels require signup.
09:24:28	<Taneb>	Guest56: some channels make you register your username as a spam prevention technique
09:24:29	<dminuoso>	So while the network itself does not demand it, some chnanels might have stricter requirements
09:25:41	<Guest56>	hmm, so kiwiirc is the client, libera.chat is the network and I also need to register with nickserve?
09:25:48	←	unautre parts (~unautre@149.91.83.63) ()
09:26:06	<dminuoso>	Guest56: Right. Think of `nickserv` as a way to register an account with the network
09:26:55	<dminuoso>	It's perhaps a bit odd to do this via `/msg`, Im guessing this way of registering your account through private messages was just retrofitted onto IRC.
09:27:29	<Guest56>	@mniip yes haskell cam up on top on search page for channels on kiwiirc and I had heard haskell folks are nice on reddit
09:27:29	<lambdabot>	Unknown command, try @list
09:27:31	<dminuoso>	nickserv and chanserv are official "bots" on the network providing registration services for accounts and channels respectively
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09:29:15	<Guest56>	dminuoso so if I have account with a network (say libera.chat), I dont need to register with others?
09:29:35	<dminuoso>	No you do. The registration is only valid on that particular network.
09:29:59	<Guest56>	huh, is all of this complicated or am i just not smart enough
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09:30:33	<Guest56>	I will have to find a tutorial for basics of IRC
09:30:37	<Taneb>	Guest56: it does take a little getting used to
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09:31:34	<dminuoso>	Guest56: The main thing to realize, is that IRC is just a generic chat protocol, and a "network" - while in principle could be multiple physical servers - is better thought of as a single (conceptual) server perhaps.
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09:32:12	<dminuoso>	It's similar to say Slack, where you can connect to multiple networks - and each one requires separate registration of nicknames.
09:32:36	<Guest56>	thanks dminuoso and int-e, i found a blogpost,i will read ait and comeback with basic understanding!
09:32:41	<Guest56>	have a great day!
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09:32:52	<dminuoso>	You too.
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09:45:33	<magthe>	@pl \xs n -> take n xs
09:45:33	<lambdabot>	flip take
09:45:54	<magthe>	@pl \a b -> fmap (a,) b
09:45:54	<lambdabot>	(line 1, column 16):
09:45:54	<lambdabot>	unexpected ","
09:45:54	<lambdabot>	expecting letter or digit, variable, "(", operator or ")"
09:46:23	<magthe>	@pl \a b -> fmap (a +) b
09:46:23	<lambdabot>	fmap . (+)
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09:51:23	<kritzefitz>	@pl \a b -> fmap (+ a) b
09:51:24	<lambdabot>	fmap . (+)
09:51:39	<kritzefitz>	Isn't that wrong, depending on the definition of (+)?
09:53:26	<chddr>	@pl \a b -> fmap (`const` a) b
09:53:26	<lambdabot>	fmap . const id
09:53:36	<dminuoso>	Nope
09:53:38	<chddr>	@pl \a b -> fmap (a `const`) b
09:53:39	<lambdabot>	fmap . const
09:53:46	<dminuoso>	kritzefitz: Num is expected to have commutativity on (+)
09:53:56	<dminuoso>	Well. "expected"
09:54:17	<kritzefitz>	dminuoso, good point. Now I'm just surprised that lambdabot knows about this.
09:54:21	<dminuoso>	But if base haddock says that, I'd find it reasonable if the @pl machinery assumes it
09:55:33	<dminuoso>	In hindsight, perhaps `Num` should have been called `Ring`
09:55:55	<tomsmeding>	@pl \a b -> fmap (a `f`) b
09:55:55	<lambdabot>	fmap . f
09:56:00	<tomsmeding>	@pl \a b -> fmap (`f` a) b
09:56:00	<lambdabot>	fmap . flip f
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11:53:39	<boxscape>	If I have to keep comparing suffixes of a bunch of short (~20 characters) Text values, would it be wise to reverse them and compare prefixes instead?
11:53:49	<boxscape>	(i.e. Data.Text.Text)
11:54:39	<tomsmeding>	boxscape: element indexing is O(1) on a Text, so that shouldn't matter at all -- in fact the additional reverse will likely make it a bit slower :)
11:54:53	<boxscape>	tomsmeding okay, thanks
11:54:58	<tomsmeding>	(due to the fact that you're calling an additional function -- namely reverse)
11:55:02	<boxscape>	right
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12:08:55	<merijn>	tomsmeding: It's not, though :p
12:09:22	<tomsmeding>	lazy/strict text you mean?
12:09:35	dminuoso	waits for the O(sqrt(n)) argument
12:09:44	<merijn>	No, I mean that Text does not have O(1) element indexing for any sensible notion of element
12:10:01	<dminuoso>	Oh
12:10:02	<opqdonut>	is Text utf-8 internally?
12:10:02	<merijn>	Naah, not the silly O(sqrt(n)) argument
12:10:06	<merijn>	No
12:10:11	<dminuoso>	opqdonut: its utf16
12:10:14	<dminuoso>	Sadly. :)
12:10:16	<opqdonut>	right well yeah
12:10:19	<tomsmeding>	opqdonut: a number of people are currently working very hard to make text utf-8 :p
12:10:19	<merijn>	And that's mostly irrelevant, tbh
12:10:27	<opqdonut>	no constant-time indexing since it's not constant-width
12:10:37	<merijn>	The value of UTF-8 Text is overrated, imo
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12:10:52	<dminuoso>	Until you want to interface with other libraries
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12:11:02	<dminuoso>	via ffi
12:11:09	<tomsmeding>	merijn: okay very good point. However, for suffix equality checking, you only need the (perhaps non-sensible) notion of element that is "a two-byte unit"
12:11:11	<int-e>	merijn: oh, the one about energy flow through a surface?
12:11:23	<merijn>	opqdonut: Even with constant-width unicode it's no clear to me if it'd be O(1), because of weird stuff like combining characters and various weirdness of unicode
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12:11:45	<opqdonut>	merijn: oh right, sure. O(1) to access the nth codepoint, but that's mostly not what people want
12:11:48	<tomsmeding>	(which would make my conclusion correct but my argument wrong)
12:11:54	<opqdonut>	but some variation of nth character
12:12:02	<dminuoso>	int-e: its not about energy flow, but rather the combined argument of the speed of light and that the maximum amount of entropy of a given space is limited by its surface, not its volume.
12:12:04	<boxscape>	(I'm only dealing with characters allowed in filenames fwit)
12:12:09	<boxscape>	s/fwit/fwiw
12:12:19	<merijn>	opqdonut: Basically, i'm increasingly convinced that any form of indexing text is just insanity :p
12:12:24	<opqdonut>	boxscape: aren't filenames better modeled as ByteString in most systems?
12:12:28	<dminuoso>	opqdonut: the notion of "character" is not clear, honestly,
12:12:32	<merijn>	opqdonut: Define "most systems"
12:12:32	<tomsmeding>	opqdonut: yeah
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12:12:37	<int-e>	dminuoso: ah. well, close enough.
12:12:39	<dminuoso>	The term is illsuited since there's no useful definition of the term "character"
12:12:42	<opqdonut>	dminuoso: yeah
12:12:51	<boxscape>	opqdonut quite possibly, but they are read from a file that contains english text, not just filenames
12:12:52	<tomsmeding>	I don't think there exist systems where filenames are equal modulo unicode normalisation
12:12:56	<opqdonut>	merijn: posix?
12:12:57	<merijn>	opqdonut: Windows is unicode, macOS' old filesystem is unicode too
12:13:02	<opqdonut>	ok, good to know
12:13:08	<merijn>	opqdonut: AppleFS is...weird
12:13:36	<merijn>	opqdonut: It's unicode, but handled at the library level, with the FS accepting any byte sequence, leading to confusing behaviour with different normalisations
12:13:38	<tomsmeding>	boxscape: what function are you using to check suffix equality
12:13:48	<merijn>	imo, Windows is the only one who gets this right
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12:14:23	<opqdonut>	yeah the linux byte sequence filenames are a bit of a copout
12:14:24	<boxscape>	tomsmeding at the moment I'm checking "a `T.isSuffixOf ` b \|\| b `T.isSuffixOf` a", which probably does some checking twice
12:14:26	<opqdonut>	leaving userland to deal with problems
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12:14:46	<merijn>	Requiring a specific known unicode encoding is the only sensible way to handle files when the average user wants to name thing in their own language
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12:15:33	<tomsmeding>	boxscape: what about "let len = min (T.length a) (T.length b) in T.takeEnd len a == T.takeEnd len b"
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12:15:48	<boxscape>	tomsmeding that sounds like a good idea
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12:16:13	<tomsmeding>	merijn: both of these solutions don't actually need O(1) indexing in any "sensible" way, just in the straight bytes way :p
12:16:18	<dminuoso>	merijn: I guess on a technical level that means filenames are just identified by a byte sequence.
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12:16:41	<merijn>	dminuoso: Right, but that means it's impossible to reliably display filenames to users
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12:17:04	<dminuoso>	Right. And it still leaves the problem of unicode equivalence
12:17:24	<dminuoso>	So normalization is a real issue here
12:17:27	<merijn>	dminuoso: What if one filename is in UTF-8 and the other is UTF-16 (perhaps because they're made by different users with different locales)
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12:18:46	<Maxdamantus>	Bytes should always be the way to represent filenames.
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12:18:47	<dminuoso>	merijn: Easy. Just present them with mojibake.
12:19:01	<dminuoso>	You know, like the rest of the text world where encoding is not stored as metadata.
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12:19:20	<Maxdamantus>	On Windows, you encode the filename into WTF-8. On other systems you just copy the bytes.
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12:19:57	<merijn>	Maxdamantus: Windows has a specific, required UTF-16 encoding and normalisation for filenames, enforced by the filesystem it is not "WTF-8"
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12:20:16	<Maxdamantus>	merijn: hmm.. Pretty sure it doesn't.
12:20:23	<merijn>	Yes it does
12:20:28	<Maxdamantus>	merijn: pretty sure you can put lone surrogates in Windows filenames.
12:20:41	Maxdamantus	will try it at work tomorrow.
12:21:28	<Maxdamantus>	If you can't put lone surrogates in, then that would mean some sort of incompatibility with older UCS-2 filenames.
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12:21:49	<merijn>	Allowing non-sensical unicode is fine, if it's a consistent well-specified format
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12:22:07	<merijn>	The problem with "just bytes" is that any folder can have names using any random mix of encodings
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12:22:19	<merijn>	"oh, but you shouldn't use non-ascii names..."
12:22:40	<merijn>	Well, that's just a giant "fuck you" to any computer user outside of the anglophone world
12:22:47	<Maxdamantus>	I'm talking about the representation within the program. If the OS doesn't like certain filenames, it can reject those when you try to interact with the OS.
12:22:53	<dminuoso>	Even ASCII is not enough, because ASCII being a terminal control protocol, you probably want to limit ASCII to printable codepoints..
12:22:58	<Maxdamantus>	You get that with Linux too.
12:23:03	<dminuoso>	i.e. how do you print `\BEL` ?
12:23:07	<boxscape>	tomsmeding I'm guessing it's faster to do "let {lenA = T.length A; lenB = T.length B; len = min lenA lenB} in lenA == lenB && T.takeEnd len a == T.takeEnd len b"
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12:23:13	<merijn>	Maxdamantus: Right, and it's one of the things that makes linux awful :p
12:23:22	<Maxdamantus>	eg, '\0', '/' and ".." and "." are treated specially.
12:23:34	<tomsmeding>	boxscape: what makes you think (==) on Text wouldn't do the length check first itself?
12:23:39	<Maxdamantus>	Well, it's better than Windows at least.
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12:23:46	<merijn>	Maxdamantus: Hard disagree
12:23:46	<boxscape>	tomsmeding not thinking it through :)
12:23:59	<merijn>	Linux engineering is, in many ways, inferior to Windows
12:24:09	<boxscape>	tomsmeding I also compared the wrong lengths
12:24:31	<merijn>	Most programmers with "windows is bad" takes just equate "not the same interface as linux, so I can't run my code unchanged" is the same as bad engineering
12:24:31	<dminuoso>	I too preferred working with the (then) Win32 API over Linux.
12:24:36	<boxscape>	frankly what I wrote just doesn't make much sense :)
12:24:37	<Maxdamantus>	merijn: there are lots of extra special cases in Windows, like "nul" and "con".
12:24:39	<dminuoso>	It was a mostly consistent and well documented API
12:24:47	<Maxdamantus>	mkdir con
12:25:20	<tomsmeding>	boxscape: you awakened something in this channel
12:25:26	<boxscape>	I sure did
12:25:27	<merijn>	dminuoso: Most of the complaints I've read in "windows is bad" discussions are just "windows is doing something different, for totally reasonable engineering reasons, but I hate it, because it's different"
12:25:42	<dminuoso>	merijn: Right.
12:25:48	<boxscape>	tomsmeding that always happens when someone mentions something involving text and merijn is here :P
12:25:55	<merijn>	And it just annoys me. There's plenty of valid criticism of MS/Windows, but blindly asserting their code is badly engineered isn't one of them
12:26:19	<dminuoso>	I mean there's a lot of things I hate about Windows and its user interface, but the programmatic interface I found enjoyable to work against ignoring the language itself.
12:26:23	<merijn>	boxscape: And time when I'm here and...
12:26:25	<Maxdamantus>	I think it's difficult to argue that Windows filenames are not based on accidental technologies that are now obsolete.
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12:26:40	<merijn>	boxscape: My role is to just rant people out of bad decission making ;)
12:26:44	<boxscape>	haha
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12:27:25	<Maxdamantus>	(particularly, UCS-2 .. and I suspect it was just some architectural mistake that results in "con" and "nul" and other random things being reserved filenames)
12:27:26	<dminuoso>	merijn: Perhaps there's something to be said about when your product comes out of a single shop with paid engineers and clear design goals. A lot of linux is just decades of frankenstein. :)
12:27:28	<merijn>	Or at least make sure I can say "I told you so" later
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12:27:50	<merijn>	dminuoso: I wonder how people get this impression linux is "well engineered"
12:27:56	<dminuoso>	Heh.
12:28:14	<merijn>	Like, anyone who has dug through linux kernel code and other kernel code will know better
12:28:27	<dminuoso>	It starts with "half the interfaces used in linux" is spread across a multitude of libraries controlled by completely different parties
12:28:39	<hpc>	most people don't go that far down
12:28:39	<merijn>	Linux is more the triumph of "if you throw enough engineers and money at a problem, you can make it go away"
12:28:40	<dminuoso>	So there's not even a clear design, because there was nobody to have any design
12:28:57	<Maxdamantus>	I wouldn't say that it's "well-engineered", but I think "bytes" has proven to be more universal than "16-bit code units"
12:29:00	<hpc>	to be fair, being able to read my laptop's thermometers without writing a bunch of C or running a precompiled executable from some random non-https website is a breath of fresh air
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12:29:36	<Maxdamantus>	16-bit code units is obviously a historical mistake. They used them because they thought 65536 characters were enough.
12:29:47	<hpc>	it turns out 256 characters were enough :P
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12:30:05	<merijn>	Except that it's now UTf-16 and UCS-2 is just a subset of that
12:30:43	<Maxdamantus>	when it turned out that wasn't the case and they had all this software based on 16-bit code units, they had to make some stupid multi-code-unit encoding, where the original point was to only use a single-code-unit encoding.
12:30:55	<Maxdamantus>	if you wanted a multi-code-unit encoding, you should have just invented UTF-8.
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12:31:19	<tomsmeding>	Maxdamantus: you and merijn are talking past each other
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12:31:29	<tomsmeding>	merijn is saying, having a consistent encoding enforced by the FS is good
12:31:36	<tomsmeding>	you're saying: windows' choice of encoding is bad
12:31:49	<tomsmeding>	(I don't know what windows' encoding actually is, so I'm taking your statements on faith)
12:31:54	<tomsmeding>	you're not disagreeing :p
12:32:00	<dminuoso>	merijn: In my experience, I found checking how stuff works in the linux kernel is an excercise in emotional control. Poorly written C code, very fractured design (in that you get confronted with so many different styles, often inside a singular module), sometimes extremely poorly documented code
12:32:04	<Maxdamantus>	I don't think he's saying that. To the extent that he's said that, he is mistaken, because Windows doesn't enforce an encoding.
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12:32:49	<dminuoso>	ret -= 128; /* 30 is enough */
12:32:52	<dminuoso>	That was my most recent finding.
12:32:59	<Maxdamantus>	Windows enforces an encoding as much as Linux enforces an encoding. There are some special code units ('/' vs '\\') and some special filenames ("." and ".." in Linux, additionally "con", "nul", etc in Windows).
12:33:03	<dminuoso>	How stuff like that passes a review is beyond me
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12:33:30	<Maxdamantus>	For the most part, Linux just lets you use arbitrary 8-bit code units and Windows lets you use arbitrary 16-bit code units.
12:34:06	<Maxdamantus>	Windows also has various extra restrictions within the ASCII range.
12:34:22	<Maxdamantus>	Neither enforces UTF-8 or UTF-16.
12:34:26	<dminuoso>	And linux strict adherence to backwards compatibility keeps many APIs locked in poor ergonomics and experience. Since its more important that drivers or userland code must never change, its more worthwhile keeping ancient APIs alive.
12:34:53	<dminuoso>	(Perhaps its admitting that there's a lot of stuff that would never be updated, should linux make backwards breaking changes?)
12:35:48	<merijn>	I'm still angry about epoll >.>
12:35:56	<merijn>	And will forever be
12:35:57	<dminuoso>	heh
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12:36:08	<merijn>	But that's probably more a topic for -offtopic :p
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12:37:21	<Hecate>	betelgeuse: I want to read the comics now…
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12:40:48	<Maxdamantus>	Hm, Googled "windows filenames lone surrogates" and the first result happened to be where WTF-8 was invented: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/12056
12:42:09	Maxdamantus	thinks he recently invented an extension of WTF-8 that encodes UTF-8 errors as well as UTF-16 errors (particularly, for preserving JSON strings sourced from bytes that could be ill-formed UTF-8)
12:45:12	<merijn>	That's not really WTF-8, though? That's "our API can't represent what the FS API guarantees"
12:45:42	<Maxdamantus>	https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/12056#issuecomment-55786546
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12:46:56	<Maxdamantus>	UTF-8 can't represent (in an obvious way) what the Windows FS API guarantees.
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12:49:52	<Maxdamantus>	(since UTF-8 just represents Unicode scalar values, but Windows filenames are not sequences of Unicode scalar values, but sequences of 16-bit numbers)
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13:05:02	<starlord>	Hi! I'm trying to implement a lambda calculus interpreter with a catamorphism using the recursion-schemes package. I've managed to get everything working EXCEPT the Fix combinator. Given I have Covid I might not be the best thinker at the moment but I've spent two full days trying to figure this out and I'm completely stuck. I'd appreciate it super
13:05:02	<starlord>	much if someone could eyeball my example and try to lead me in the right direction.
13:05:07	<starlord>	https://gist.github.com/simonvpe/28973b45483c31fd030bfbc023178458
13:05:31	<starlord>	BTW the fix combinator is confusingly called `Rec` in my example
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13:17:20	<boxscape>	Wouldn't it make sense to provide a MonadFail (Either String) instance in base?
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13:18:10	<merijn>	That'll give some super confusing type errors, though
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13:18:30	<merijn>	When you accidentally use a partial pattern in some other Either do block
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13:36:13	<boxscape>	merijn yeah that's fair
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13:39:10	<boxscape>	although then again with the couple tests I did just know error messages don't seem to change but there could well be more complex examples where they do
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13:42:57	<edmundnoble>	I think the only error you can expect is actually that there is no MonadFail instance for `Either e`
13:43:34	<boxscape>	yeah that's what I've been getting
13:43:43	<boxscape>	s/know/now
13:43:44	<edmundnoble>	However, you also cannot expect that `e` will be inferred to be `String` just because you used `fail` in the do-block
13:43:56	<edmundnoble>	That may be practically annoying
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13:45:08	<edmundnoble>	To change both of those things, you could write it as `instance (e ~ String) => MonadFail (Either e)`, which would disallow writing `MonadFail (Either e)` for any other types `e`. I think that's probably worse because some people likely have such instances
13:45:20	<boxscape>	yeah
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14:29:53	<tdammers>	IMO not having a MonadFail instance for Either is by far the nicer solution
14:30:16	<tdammers>	if you really feel the need to have one for Either String, then chances are you should newtype that anyway to give it more semantic oomph
14:30:29	<dminuoso>	Woah. Spend nearly an hour debugging mysterious type mismatching errors for a distant missing Generic instance.
14:30:36	<tdammers>	and if you're going to do that anyway, might as well spell out the 2-line instance
14:30:37	dminuoso	sighs
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14:34:38	<dminuoso>	How can GHC come up with a mismatching type error if a Generic instance is missing?
14:35:12	<dminuoso>	Is there an obvious way to provoke this? Asking because Im quite baffled
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14:53:56	<lyxia>	it can happen because of an equality with a stuck application of the Rep type family
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15:04:36	<raehik>	I've come across some code where `pure` is used in a do block, in a StateT IO monad. Is there any difference between pure and return in cases like this?
15:04:45	<boxscape>	no
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15:05:05	<boxscape>	I think even with -XApplicativeDo, return and pure are the same
15:05:14	<boxscape>	in that context
15:05:52	<raehik>	my experience agrees but I was wondering how Applicative gets "upgraded" to Monad
15:06:29	<boxscape>	for common types, pure == return and <*> == ap
15:07:27	<boxscape>	raehik is the "upgraded" question about how they are related or how the types work out, since you have a Monad constraint but are using Applicative methods?
15:07:39	<boxscape>	s/related/related in terms of semantics
15:08:01	<raehik>	ah! maybe I was misunderstanding the context
15:08:19	<raehik>	I was thinking "using pure makes it an Applicative, but it ends in a Monad"
15:08:45	<raehik>	But being in a Monad means we can use Applicatives. I tripped up in my head a bit
15:08:54	<boxscape>	yeah since Applicative is a superclass of Monad, you can always tell ghc that something has a Monad constraint instead of Applicative
15:08:58	<raehik>	boxscape: thanks for writing it out like that lol
15:09:04	<boxscape>	% :t pure :: Monad f => a -> f a
15:09:04	<yahb>	boxscape: Monad f => a -> f a
15:09:07	<boxscape>	np
15:09:11	<raehik>	right right right
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15:14:21	<boxscape>	So, I have a Map with Text keys, and I want the lookup to match whenever I pass in something of which the key is a suffix. I think I can make this work with a custom Ord instance, but since Eq is commutative, that means it must also match if the passed in value is a suffix of the key. I don't think that should be a problem for my use case, but is
15:14:21	<boxscape>	there a neat way to get around this? I'm not going to be able to use packages here that ghc doesn't ship with.
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15:14:35	<boxscape>	s/Eq/(==)
15:14:50	<boxscape>	s/commutative/symmetric, I guess
15:15:59	<boxscape>	feels Trie-y but not sure it's worth implementing that when a Map is likely to do the job
15:16:50	<c_wraith>	Map is really weird there. Like, it works, but it sure isn't what someone would expect it to do
15:17:00	<boxscape>	hmm
15:17:06	<boxscape>	that is true
15:18:00	<opqdonut>	boxscape: one "neat" way is to reverse the strings, and then use Data.Map.split
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15:19:01	<opqdonut>	> Data.Map.split "ab" (Data.Map.fromList [("aa",1),("aaa",2),("aba",3),("abc",4)])
15:19:02	<lambdabot>	(fromList [("aa",1),("aaa",2)],fromList [("aba",3),("abc",4)])
15:19:10	<c_wraith>	couldn't you use lookupLE or lookupGE instead of split?
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15:20:09	<boxscape>	% Data.Map.lookupGE "ab" (Data.Map.fromList [("aa",1),("aaa",2),("aba",3),("abc",4)])
15:20:09	<yahb>	boxscape: Just ("aba",3)
15:20:11	<opqdonut>	c_wraith: those don't exist in my Data.Map, but sure
15:20:23	<geekosaur>	?
15:20:28	<opqdonut>	oh I was browsing ancient docs
15:20:28	<boxscape>	that seems like a good idea, thanks
15:20:44	<c_wraith>	Yeah, I was sure those functions had been around for a while
15:21:10	<boxscape>	I guess I'm going to need to make sure afterwards that it actually is a suffix
15:21:14	<opqdonut>	yeah
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15:29:39	<boxscape>	hm, actually it's not quite that because this checks if the lookup key is a suffix of the Map key, rather than vice versa. But it should lead me towards the right solution, anyway
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15:50:01	<xerox>	anybody knows what "Paths_strip" is here? https://github.com/hspec/hspec-example/blob/master/strip.cabal#L40 can't find it in the cabal docs directly, only a sideways mention pops up in direct search https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/search.html?q=Paths_&check_keywords=yes&area=default
15:50:47	<c_wraith>	that's.. weird. why is it in other-modules?
15:51:10	<xerox>	both in the test-suite and the library to boot
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15:51:26	<c_wraith>	the Paths_* modules are created by cabal to include installation locations of data files
15:51:41	<c_wraith>	Paths_strip is going to have locations for the strip package
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15:52:27	<c_wraith>	but... including it in the cabal file makes no sense because it should be generated on installation, not packaged up as part of the source
15:53:03	<xerox>	I think it's a way to fix the problem of the spec files importing the relative files they are the spec for in an automated fashion, except it doesn't quite work for me so I wanted to dig a bit, coming up empty tho
15:53:20	<c_wraith>	Oh, maybe putting it in other-modules is a weird attempt to prevent people from using it?
15:53:41	<c_wraith>	I don't know why you would do that, but it probably would prevent people from using it
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15:54:26	<c_wraith>	oh, that file is generated by hpack, so hpack is going to do that with everything it touches. lovely.
15:54:55	<c_wraith>	summary: don't use hpack
15:55:05	<xerox>	ah that's different
15:55:07	<monochrom>	:)
15:55:21	<xerox>	good catch I thought it was a hand written cabal file like mine
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15:56:30	<c_wraith>	maybe hpack is doing that because there are no other-files included, so the Paths module should be empty anyway?
15:56:34	<c_wraith>	It's just bizarre
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15:56:53	<Clint>	i'm pretty sure cabal yelled at me to put a Paths_ module in autogen-modules before
15:58:23	<c_wraith>	see, that's a place that makes sense. other-modules does not.
15:58:43	<c_wraith>	other-modules just exists to prevent modules from being imported
15:59:12	<monochrom>	xerox: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-package.html?highlight=getsysconfdir#accessing-data-files-from-package-code explains Paths_*
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16:00:28	<c_wraith>	Except within the package itself, I suppose. Ok, I understand what hpack was trying to do, but it did it weirdly.
16:00:36	<monochrom>	Ah, it is also supposed to be listed under other-modules and autogen-modules
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16:01:35	<c_wraith>	yeah, looks like autogen-modules prevents it from being included in the sdist
16:01:35	<monochrom>	Actually I don't know why it "must" be in other-modules. Then again in most use cases it is an implementation detail you don't normally export.
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16:01:55	<trueboxguy>	I use paths a lot, but I always get haddock complaining about Paths_* not being documented
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16:02:28	<monochrom>	It is not supposed to be included in sdist though. Its content is supposed to change at build time.
16:02:29	<xerox>	so the Paths_<name> under library is instructing cabal to generate / expose that particular module, whereas the one under test-suite is making it possible for the test suite to access it?
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16:03:21	<c_wraith>	I don't understand why it would be in other-modules if you expect it to be used. other-modules is for things other packages can't import.
16:03:47	<c_wraith>	I guess the idea is you don't expect any other package to use your data files
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16:04:53	<c_wraith>	but once again, the strip package has no data-files section, so it's a lot of dubious ceremony for nothing
16:06:05	<xerox>	oh it's just data files, it has nothing to do with modules
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16:59:58	<klemzi32>	hi! i am looking for a place to ask beginner haskell questions. is this the right place?
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17:00:55	<monochrom>	Yes!
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17:01:05	<joel135>	Yes, or /join #haskell-beginners if you prefer, your choice
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17:02:41	<klemzi32>	great! i'll join beginners chat as well.
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17:03:39	<klemzi32>	i am following the haskell book and struggling a bit with Applicative. here is my code for the specific example https://paste.tomsmeding.com/vRuyORpg
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17:05:38	<klemzi32>	I have updated the link with the error and code https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ZxlTBM8e
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17:06:19	<klemzi32>	fmap works fine, also <> works, however i can't figure out why the <*> does not work
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17:07:34	<[exa]>	klemzi32: you are combining, by types, `(Two (x->y) (z->w))` with `(Two a b)`
17:08:16	<[exa]>	klemzi32: instead, you should combine `Two a (b->c)` with `Two a b` to produce `Two a c`
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17:08:51	<joel135>	i.e. f1 is not a function!
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17:10:16	<[exa]>	klemzi32: semi-correct visual aid to get it right: the "Functor part" of the type, which is the whole (Two a), never changes. Imagine it as the "wrap", which stays the same. Only what's "inside" of it (ie. `b`) changes.
17:11:35	<[exa]>	for correct implementation just follow the types:
17:11:36	<klemzi32>	got it, i think it clicked now. basically the same as fmap where only b gets modified, however a stays the same. here it's the difference that the function is also wrapped in a structure
17:11:49	<[exa]>	yes
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17:13:10	<[exa]>	the obvious problem is what to do with two incoming a's when you only need to produce one, there are at least 4 sensible ways to do that. I recommend using one of the typeclasses you already have there.
17:13:19	<klemzi32>	so my implementation is wrong? or I am just passing wrong params?
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17:13:51	<klemzi32>	i checked on github the solutions and mine looks the same
17:13:59	<monochrom>	Passing wrong params.
17:14:00	<[exa]>	I might got a bit confused by the f1 f2, looked like functions
17:14:10	<[exa]>	actualy you're using f1 as the function
17:14:20	<[exa]>	s/function/monoid/
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17:14:22	<[exa]>	which is right
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17:18:57	<[exa]>	klemzi32: ok I finally found the link with the actual error. the first thing in Two needs to be a Monoid for <*> to work
17:19:06	<[exa]>	in your case, `4` is not a monoid
17:19:13	<klemzi32>	thanks! now i have figured it out. it works with for example Two "ab" (+5) <> Two "cd" 10. it didn't work with Two 5 (+5) <> Two 4 10 because 4<>5 does not work, it's not a monoid
17:19:17	<[exa]>	(but e.g. `Sum 4` is)
17:19:25	<monochrom>	Yes that's a better example.
17:22:09	<klemzi32>	thanks for the help! now it clicked
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18:11:16	<dsal>	> 4 <> 5 :: Sum Int
18:11:17	<lambdabot>	Sum {getSum = 9}
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18:14:35	<boxscape>	> 4 * 5 :: Sum Int
18:14:36	<lambdabot>	Sum {getSum = 20}
18:14:43	<boxscape>	didn't actually realize it had a Num instance
18:16:21	<dsal>	> fold [1, 2, 3, 4, 5] :: Sum Int
18:16:22	<lambdabot>	Sum {getSum = 15}
18:16:23	<dsal>	> fold [1, 2, 3, 4, 5] :: Product Int
18:16:25	<lambdabot>	Product {getProduct = 120}
18:16:28	<dsal>	It's kind of helpful sometimes.
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18:21:00	<boxscape>	no Enum instance though :(
18:21:08	<boxscape>	> getProduct $ fold [1..5]
18:21:09	<lambdabot>	error:
18:21:09	<lambdabot>	• No instance for (Enum (Product Integer))
18:21:09	<lambdabot>	arising from a use of ‘e_115’
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18:22:22	<boxscape>	at least you can do
18:22:23	<boxscape>	> ala Product foldMap [1..5]
18:22:24	<lambdabot>	120
18:24:11	<tomsmeding>	:t ala
18:24:12	<lambdabot>	(Functor f, Rewrapped s t, Rewrapped t s) => (Unwrapped s -> s) -> ((Unwrapped t -> t) -> f s) -> f (Unwrapped s)
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18:29:04	<trueboxguy>	Haha
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18:31:34	<tomsmeding>	that type is so deceiving
18:32:21	<tomsmeding>	1. 'class Wrapped s => Rewrapped s r' has no methods
18:33:04	<tomsmeding>	and 'Wrapped s' is just an isomorphism between s and Unwrapped s, where Unwrapped (Product s) = s
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18:33:32	<tomsmeding>	2. the (Unwrapped s -> s) argument is ignored; instead it uses the isomorphism from the instance
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18:43:18	<edwardk>	tomsmeding: we use (#.) and (.#) all over lens too for much the same reason
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18:43:45	<edwardk>	except there we get to exploit its just a coercion
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18:47:14	<boxscape>	edwardk does that mean ala couldn't be implemented with Coercible instead of Re-/Unwrapped?
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18:55:56	<edwardk>	:t au
18:55:57	<lambdabot>	Functor f => AnIso s t a b -> ((b -> t) -> f s) -> f a
18:56:00	<edwardk>	:t ala
18:56:01	<lambdabot>	(Functor f, Rewrapped s t, Rewrapped t s) => (Unwrapped s -> s) -> ((Unwrapped t -> t) -> f s) -> f (Unwrapped s)
18:57:23	<edwardk>	its currently set up to use ala Sum = au _Sum -- au/auf allow use of an arbitrary Iso. ala/alaf pick the iso via the same instances. there is a subtle problem with your proposal, which is that ala can change types. e.g. go in at Sum Int and come out at Sum Double
18:57:29	<edwardk>	and i can't model that with Coercible directtly
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18:57:54	<edwardk>	er rather the current version can, and one that is based on just Coercible can't
18:58:01	<boxscape>	ah, I see
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19:11:06	<maerwald>	how do you find unused dependencies in your .cabal again?
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19:13:08	<trueboxguy>	If you had -Wunused-packages as a ghc option, would it work? I think cabal passes the packages used into ghc
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19:34:30	<edwardk>	trueboxguy: there's some stack driven tool that neil mitchell maintains, before that there used to be one from hvr that just used a cabal-driven workflow, but its a few ghc releases behind
19:35:23	<Hecate>	heya trueboxguy :)
19:35:40	<trueboxguy>	Hecate: hi, finally set up that bouncer
19:37:17	<Hecate>	:)
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19:41:27	<maerwald>	TH compilation order seems to have changed in 9.0.1 again
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19:41:38	<maerwald>	my json derivings are all broken
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19:50:43	<dminuoso>	Mmm, the cabal docs dont to the target selector algorithm justice..
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19:59:56	<dminuoso>	cabal-install fails to build on a nix machine with this linker error:
19:59:58	<dminuoso>	https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/fce1467405c045810438dc6425aa13b2
20:00:18	<dminuoso>	Oh hold on, just as I hit enter I realized my mistake
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20:20:03	<dmwit>	maerwald: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/packunused ?
20:20:38	<maerwald>	Cabal (==1.24.*)
20:20:44	<maerwald>	the dream...
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20:23:29	<nova>	What is the preferred method for installing haskell, ghc, cabal, xmonad on arch?
20:23:46	<sclv>	ghcup
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20:23:54	<Rembane>	nova: ghcup is a quite good experience
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20:24:23	<dmwit>	maerwald: There is also https://hackage.haskell.org/package/prune-juice, which states "packunused is unmaintained since 2014" as a reason for existing, haha.
20:24:26	<nova>	I don't even know what it is, but I will spare the channel some spam and eggs and will promptly search it, and if I have any questions, I shall return.
20:24:50	<dmwit>	Only seems to work with stack though? Not sure.
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20:25:29	<nova>	oh goody - it's one of those 07bash -c "$(curl http://totaly-not-hax.com)" type things. I mean, I trust it, but .. eh .. okey ..
20:26:31	<dmwit>	nova: You may be able to get it from your distro's package manager.
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20:27:01	<nova>	aur/ghcup-hs-bin as it were, but idk
20:27:27	dmwit	shrugs
20:27:42	<dmwit>	If you don't even trust your package manager, what proof of sanity would you accept?
20:28:29	<sm>	nova: we love those don't we. :) Just download and review before running
20:28:48	<nova>	that is what I am, indeed, doing q^u^p
20:29:00	<tomsmeding>	also, you're downloading an executable anyway :)
20:29:07	<tomsmeding>	but reviewing is always a good idea
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20:30:54	<nova>	you're an executable 05#rekt - in all seriousness, after reviewing the executables and the link trail, I think I will try this, and if you don't hear back from me, then pretend I am your standard UNIX tool and all is well, and the return code is 0. Thanks again :-)
20:31:26	<sm>	the executable is hopefully coming from a more-official-totally-harder-to-hack locataion
20:31:47	<nova>	I agree with this, but you can't trust the back of your hand these days
20:32:20	<sm>	I'm coming in late here, but if security conscious why not build the thing
20:32:45	<nova>	I am not that worried. I just like to double check
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20:33:15	<sm>	ah, chicken and egg.. well install the most trustworthy old cabal/stack you can find from your distro I guess, then build the new one
20:33:19	<sm>	nod
20:34:00	<boxscape>	sm just write your own compiler in C so you can compile the compiler
20:34:14	<tomsmeding>	"trivial"
20:34:31	<sm>	but is that safe ? no!
20:34:37	<Hafydd>	Then you need to trust the C compiler you use.
20:34:37	<sm>	we're doomed
20:34:52	<tomsmeding>	we were doomed anyway :p
20:35:51	<sm>	work only on a strictly airgapped 80s home computer
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20:36:12	<Rembane>	Avoid compilers
20:36:41	<sm>	honestly, you can see what the Butlerian Jihadists were on about
20:37:08	<tomsmeding>	write an OS in haskell first
20:37:31	<tomsmeding>	then realise that you're not capable of doing that without introducing gaping security holes
20:37:37	<tomsmeding>	then join the Jihad
20:38:11	<sm>	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune_(franchise)#The_Butlerian_Jihad
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20:38:59	<Rembane>	The Butlerian Jihad makes Dune so much stranger.
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21:02:00	<Boarders>	I am trying to run stylish-haskell but getting: stylish-haskell: dieVerbatim: user error (stylish-haskell: Failed parsing "/home/mcgill/Src/debugged/debugged.cabal".
21:02:12	<Boarders>	any ideas why it would do that, I don't even know why it is reading the cabal file?
21:02:45	<hseg>	hi. how do I add a git repo unavailable in stackage to my stack.yaml?
21:03:01	<sclv>	Very Carefully
21:03:13	<hseg>	snort ok...?
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21:05:54	<hseg>	ok, checking the cardano repo, it seems i want to add packages of form {location: {git:, commit:}, extra-dep: true} to packages:
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21:08:41	<tapas>	https://github.com/kadena-io/chainweb-node/blob/master/stack.yaml
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21:09:41	<tapas>	you can add them in the extra-deps section. extra-deps: - { github: repo, commit: hash }
21:12:07	<hseg>	ooh, that helps
21:13:02	<minoru_shiraeesh>	I'm trying to play with an example from Haskell School of Expression
21:13:32	<minoru_shiraeesh>	I get a weird error:
21:13:50	<minoru_shiraeesh>	transformers-0.4.2.0 from stack configuration does not match >=0.3 && ==0.2.*
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21:14:37	<minoru_shiraeesh>	those constraints seem impossible
21:15:13	<minoru_shiraeesh>	how can a version be greater than 0.3 and equal to 0.2.* at the same time?
21:15:14	<starlord>	What do I read to understand typing rules? I've been staring at this paper for I don't know how long but I just don't get it
21:15:30	<dminuoso>	starlord: Grab a copy of TaPL?
21:15:44	<dminuoso>	It gives a smooth introduction into the topic in the beginning.
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21:16:43	<hpc>	minoru_shiraeesh: the set of version constraints can include both, it just becomes unresolvable - find where those are coming from and adjust things?
21:16:57	<hpc>	maybe something depends on an obsolete package?
21:17:30	<starlord>	dminuoso can you please expand that abbreviation? my google fu ain't that strong it seems
21:17:35	<geekosaur>	or you're using it with an old resolver?
21:17:44	<geekosaur>	starlord, Types and Programming Languages
21:17:58	<boxscape>	by Benjamin Pierce
21:17:59	<dminuoso>	starlord: At any rate, just to understand inference rules its probably overkill, but the book is a good read anyhow.
21:18:06	<minoru_shiraeesh>	hpc: it says the constraints come from transformers-compat-0.6.6
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21:18:17	<dminuoso>	starlord: They are just inference rules similar to logic systems.
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21:19:04	<starlord>	dminuoso I'm designing my own language so it's probably just what I need. I'm having a hard time implementing "extensible records with scoped labels" correctly because I don't understand the apaper
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21:19:20	<dminuoso>	starlord: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_deduction
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21:19:28	<dminuoso>	Ah, yes. Grab TaPL definitely then.
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21:20:05	<boxscape>	tbf contexts and typing jugdments make typing rules slightly more confusing than vanilla natural deduction
21:20:06	<starlord>	oh god, natural deduction, how I wish I had this 3 months ago :D thank you, now I'll get to reading
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21:22:17	<minoru_shiraeesh>	geekosaur: yes, I tried building with the default resolver but got errors and then specified the older resolver
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21:27:09	<dminuoso>	boxscape: Can you explain how typing judgements make typing rules slightly more confusing?
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21:27:53	<boxscape>	dminuoso it's not once your used to them, but at the beginning I think it's just one more thing to learn, and you have to grok the fixities of :, turnstile, etc
21:27:59	<boxscape>	s/your/you're
21:28:43	<boxscape>	s/fixities/precedences
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21:30:55	<monochrom>	IMO natural deduction's \|- is different enough from typing rules's \|- such that natural deduction is a bad way to start reading typing rules.
21:31:24	<monochrom>	Approximately the only commonality is the horzontal line and the comma.
21:31:47	<boxscape71>	I wasn't aware of \|- in natural deduction
21:31:59	<monochrom>	OK, and the implcit closed-world assumption.
21:32:50	<boxscape71>	Oh actually I take that back
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21:32:55	<monochrom>	:)
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22:17:15	<ski>	boxscape : "vanilla natural deduction" being Prawitz-style, as opposed to Gentzen-style ?
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22:28:12	<boxscape>	ski just anything not involving type theory
22:28:44	<boxscape>	(I don't remember which of those is which)
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22:45:58	<maerwald>	haskell-mode is an executable or an emacs plugin?
22:46:04	<maerwald>	afais it's the latter
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22:54:21	<geekosaur>	emacs .el file and major mode
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23:07:29	<hololeap>	I'm looking for some help with this: http://sprunge.us/K8jr3z
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23:12:22	<boxscape>	hololeap looking at the output of -ddump-deriv might help
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23:12:42	<boxscape>	in figuring out what's going wrong, at least
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23:17:08	<hololeap>	i'm not really sure how to read that: http://sprunge.us/3cvBzN
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23:22:10	<boxscape>	hololeap it gets a bit more readable when you strip out the module qualifiers: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/JS9tj20q The @s are the same @s as with -XTypeApplications. In principle you should be able to replace the problematic deriving instance with that to find out where in it the error is coming from.
23:22:27	<boxscape>	which might explain why the deriving instance is going wrong, hopefully
23:23:45	<boxscape>	(just realized I didn't strip out all the qualifiers https://paste.tomsmeding.com/vqpwRGaY )
23:25:40	<boxscape>	though strangely pasting it in the file produces a slightly different error...
23:26:14	<boxscape>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/WRwYUiLn
23:28:47	<hololeap>	Couldn't match type `Identity Text' with `Text' -- it seems like i'm running into a limitation with GHCs deriving mechinism and it needs some handholding. but how...
23:29:36	<hololeap>	I know that I'm out on a limb as far as 10 extensions enabled
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23:31:04	<boxscape>	we can get back to the `Couldn't match type ‘IsTouched Text’ with ‘MyTypeT IsTouched’` error if we replace @(Identity Text) in the dumped instance with @(Tagged Identity Text)
23:34:57	<hololeap>	Yes, but `IsTouched Text` and `MyTypeT IsTouched` should have the same runtime representation
23:36:02	<boxscape>	yeah you would think so
23:36:23	<boxscape>	(btw it was a different error message because I accidentally deleted too much when stripping the qualifiers)
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23:43:07	<hololeap>	maybe generalize newtype deriving doesn't work with multi-param typeclases... I'll test
23:48:28	<hololeap>	Yeah, that seems to be the issue: http://sprunge.us/FZfY9M
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23:52:21	<boxscape>	huh, when you try "deriving Reverse via [Char]" it says "`Reverse' is not a unary constraint, as expected by a deriving clause"
23:52:33	<boxscape>	I guess it should say that for newtype deriving too
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23:53:21	<boxscape>	ah except that maybe standalone deriving clauses can in some contexts work with multiple parameters, idk
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23:54:46	<geekosaur>	aren't most of the things in mtl that get derived via GND multiparameter? I suspect the fundeps help
23:56:43	<geekosaur>	(standalone deriving iirc isn't supposed to differ from a deriving clause)
23:56:45	<geekosaur>	at least if the same things are in scope
23:57:35	<boxscape>	well, there certainly are some cases in which standalone deriving works but a deriving clause doesn't; in many of those ghc will tell you to use standalone deriving if you use a clause
23:57:50	<boxscape>	not sure if that ever applies to gnd though
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All times are in UTC on 2021-05-25.