Logs on 2021-05-26 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:01:50 | <boxscape> | hololeap https://paste.tomsmeding.com/EsMg3gPu |
| 00:02:22 | <boxscape> | (need to add InstanceSigs as well in 8.10) |
| 00:02:31 | <boxscape> | hm is this a bug in GND? |
| 00:03:27 | <boxscape> | let me check the docs... |
| 00:04:13 | <boxscape> | "We can even derive instances of multi-parameter classes, provided the newtype is the last class parameter." |
| 00:04:18 | <boxscape> | I guess it's expected behavior |
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| 00:06:40 | <boxscape> | geekosaur I guess the mtl classes have their newtypes as last parameter of the class |
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| 00:09:39 | <boxscape> | hmmm it seems like this should be a relatively straightforward extension of DerivingVia |
| 00:09:45 | <boxscape> | at least for standalone deriving clauses |
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| 00:42:48 | <boxscape> | re: multiple parameters for deriving via https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/8aa81q/deriving_via_or_how_to_turn_handwritten_instances/dwyvgru/ |
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| 01:13:15 | <hololeap> | boxscape, thanks I'll check it out! |
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| 01:13:33 | <boxscape> | hololeap to be clear that doesn't provide a solution, just ideas for how it could be implemented in ghc |
| 01:15:33 | <hololeap> | ok |
| 01:15:54 | <hololeap> | is there a way to set a default instance for an associated type family (associated with a typeclass)? |
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| 01:16:37 | <hololeap> | like, if `type instance Blah Foo = Bar` isn't there it will default to `type instance Blah Foo = MyDefault` ? |
| 01:16:39 | <dmwit> | I don't think so, but you can do the usual thing from the value level where you have a second family and folks can write `type Foo a b c = DefaultFoo a b c` or whatever. |
| 01:18:18 | <hololeap> | I'm not sure I understand the difference |
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| 01:18:52 | <boxscape> | hololeap I think you can provide a default definition: |
| 01:19:09 | <boxscape> | % class Foo where type Test; type Test = Int |
| 01:19:09 | <yahb> | boxscape: |
| 01:19:18 | <boxscape> | % :set -Wall |
| 01:19:18 | <yahb> | boxscape: |
| 01:19:26 | <boxscape> | (to warn if not everything is implemented) |
| 01:19:29 | <boxscape> | % instance Foo |
| 01:19:30 | <yahb> | boxscape: |
| 01:21:20 | <dmwit> | hololeap: Compare: `class Functor f => FancyFunctor f where fancyfmap :: (a -> b) -> (f a -> f b); fancyfmap = fmap` vs. `fancyfmapDefault :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> (f a -> f b); fancyfmapDefault = fmap; class Functor f => FancyFunctor f where fancyfmap :: (a -> b) -> (f a -> f b)` |
| 01:21:55 | <dmwit> | hololeap: The former has a default that the compiler understands -- i.e. will fill in for you if you don't put override it manually. The second has a default that you can opt into, but you get a warning if you forget to define the method. |
| 01:22:10 | <dmwit> | hololeap: For type families, the former is not available, but the latter still is. |
| 01:22:18 | <boxscape> | dmwit it is available, see above |
| 01:22:31 | <dmwit> | boxscape: ...I'm not sure that does what you think it does. |
| 01:22:35 | <boxscape> | hmmm |
| 01:22:48 | <dmwit> | % class Foo' a where type Test' a; type Test' a = Int |
| 01:22:48 | <yahb> | dmwit: |
| 01:22:58 | <dmwit> | % instance Foo' Char where type Test' Char = Bool |
| 01:22:59 | <yahb> | dmwit: |
| 01:23:01 | <dmwit> | huh! |
| 01:23:04 | <dmwit> | Maybe it does. ^_^ |
| 01:23:10 | <dmwit> | % :k! Test' Char |
| 01:23:10 | <yahb> | dmwit: *; = Bool |
| 01:23:13 | <dmwit> | fancy |
| 01:23:36 | <boxscape> | yeah |
| 01:23:48 | <dmwit> | Is that a new output format, or is yahb doing something clever to ghci's actual (verbose) response? |
| 01:24:06 | <dmwit> | (I would have expected something like `Test' Char :: *; Test' Char = Bool` or whatever. |
| 01:24:39 | <dmwit> | ) |
| 01:24:45 | <boxscape> | in HEAD ghci I get |
| 01:24:46 | <boxscape> | ghci> :k! Testing String |
| 01:24:46 | <boxscape> | Testing String :: * |
| 01:24:47 | <boxscape> | = Bool |
| 01:25:15 | <dmwit> | So yahb is doing something fancy. ok |
| 01:25:22 | <boxscape> | yeah |
| 01:25:55 | <hololeap> | here's what I'm working on: http://sprunge.us/6WAP0F |
| 01:26:06 | <Axman6> | oh we have yahb and lambdabot, hooray! |
| 01:26:31 | <boxscape> | the whole family |
| 01:26:54 | <hololeap> | I'd like to default to `type instance ValidityWrapper a = NoWrapper` |
| 01:27:38 | <boxscape> | try putting the line `type ValidityWrapper a = NoWrapper` below the line `type ValidityWrapper a :: Type -> Type` |
| 01:28:52 | <hololeap> | ok, that's frickin rad |
| 01:29:06 | <hololeap> | (at least it typechecks so far) |
| 01:29:52 | <boxscape> | you should be able to do the same with completeDef I think? As in, put `complete = \case ...` below `complete :: r -> Maybe a` and then remove all the `complete = completeDef` lines? |
| 01:30:23 | <boxscape> | ...if that's what you'd want, anyway |
| 01:31:17 | <hololeap> | that would be what I want, but it doesn't like it |
| 01:31:23 | <boxscape> | ah, hm |
| 01:32:06 | <dmwit> | You have to give the completeDef type signature, and use DefaultSignatures |
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| 01:32:57 | <dmwit> | `class Completable r a | ... where complete :: r -> Maybe a; complete :: ValidityWrapper a ~ NoWrapper => IsComplete a -> Maybe a; complete = \case ...` |
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| 01:34:25 | <dmwit> | Err, hm. You might need `complete :: (ValidityWrapper a ~ NoWrapper, r ~ IsComplete a) => r -> Maybe a` instead. |
| 01:34:35 | <dmwit> | There are some rules I don't fully understand about the shape the default signature has to have. |
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| 01:35:28 | <hololeap> | dmwit: it's complaining about multiple declarations of `complete` when I do that |
| 01:35:37 | <dmwit> | As an aside: many people seem to prefer `f <$> x <*> y` to `liftA2 f x y`. Why is that? |
| 01:35:58 | <hololeap> | oh, it needs to be prefixed with `default` ... |
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| 01:36:32 | <dmwit> | Oh yeah. |
| 01:36:38 | <dmwit> | Good thing there's documentation, huh? |
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| 01:37:16 | <hololeap> | default complete :: (ValidityWrapper a ~ NoWrapper, r ~ IsComplete a) => r -> Maybe a |
| 01:37:21 | <hololeap> | wow, that's really awesome |
| 01:37:22 | <boxscape> | dmwit liftA2 just looks ugly with that capital letter and number, doesn't really fit the camelCase aesthetic |
| 01:37:37 | <boxscape> | petty reason, but a reason anyway |
| 01:37:42 | <boxscape> | (for me) |
| 01:37:54 | <MorrowM> | <$> and <*> generalizes to as many args as you need |
| 01:38:34 | <dmwit> | Sure. For the general case, you use the general tool. Do you also write `<$>` instead of `map` or `.` in every place you can? |
| 01:38:52 | <dmwit> | But ok, aesthetics are sort of tough to argue with, even if I don't share them. |
| 01:39:43 | <dmwit> | Also, one day I'd like to convince people that `pure f <*> x <*> y` is superior to `f <$> x <*> y`. |
| 01:39:49 | <hololeap> | how many default definitions can you have? could I have more with different constraints? |
| 01:40:10 | <dmwit> | I don't think so. How would it know which to pick if multiple of them had satisfiable constraints? |
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| 01:40:22 | <dmwit> | But perhaps you'd like the DerivingVia extension. |
| 01:40:38 | <hololeap> | I know of it, but I'm not sure how that would help here |
| 01:40:43 | <geekosaur> | afaik it only allows one and it should match the single default implementation provided |
| 01:41:20 | <boxscape> | this article mentions how to use DerivingVia instead of defaultSignatures https://www.parsonsmatt.org/2020/11/10/simplifying_deriving.html |
| 01:42:00 | <MorrowM> | dmwit: A lot of people use fmap always instead of map, so I presume it's the same sort of deal here. |
| 01:42:38 | <boxscape> | I once wrote a function called `lift` that could lift any number of arguments |
| 01:42:41 | <boxscape> | it was terrible |
| 01:42:47 | <boxscape> | (type-inference-wise) |
| 01:43:04 | <dmwit> | Yes, terrible, agree. |
| 01:43:10 | <MorrowM> | Oh I did the same lol |
| 01:43:25 | <MorrowM> | Although I called it liftAN |
| 01:45:06 | <dmwit> | BTW we need a, like, liftJ2 :: Monad m => (a -> b -> m c) -> m a -> m b -> m c, and liftJ3 and liftJ4 and some extensible infix functions. |
| 01:45:18 | <dmwit> | I feel like I need that like one project in three. |
| 01:45:23 | <boxscape> | incidentally I also prefer traverse over mapM and sequence over sequenceA for the same reason I don't like liftA2 |
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| 01:46:16 | <MorrowM> | I'd imagine you're not fond of liftM2 then |
| 01:46:41 | <boxscape> | no that's worse than liftA2 because it has the uncessessary Monad constraint |
| 01:46:47 | <boxscape> | that is not how you spell that word |
| 01:46:50 | <MorrowM> | Indeed |
| 01:47:42 | <MorrowM> | Nice thing about liftA2 though is you can compose it |
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| 01:47:54 | <boxscape> | I'm really torn on sequenceA and sequence because on one hand sequence is prettier and on the other hand it has the unnecessary constraint |
| 01:48:16 | <MorrowM> | @type liftA2 . liftA2 |
| 01:48:17 | <lambdabot> | (Applicative f1, Applicative f2) => (a -> b -> c) -> f1 (f2 a) -> f1 (f2 b) -> f1 (f2 c) |
| 01:48:26 | <Axman6> | dmwit++ |
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| 01:51:30 | <trueboxguy> | MorrowM: if you are who I think you are: remember me composing liftA3? |
| 01:51:59 | <MorrowM> | What, who are you? :P |
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| 01:58:55 | <trueboxguy> | Ah, was just a poor guess then MorrowM. Was talking to someone else called Morrow who composed liftA3 and got the type (on another platform) |
| 01:59:32 | <trueboxguy> | Also called MorrowM :p |
| 02:00:53 | <MorrowM> | trueboxguy, notice the :P boxy |
| 02:01:13 | <trueboxguy> | MorrowM: notice my :p |
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| 02:01:42 | <trueboxguy> | I just had to make sure in my first message. Imagine how awkward it would have been... |
| 02:02:46 | <trueboxguy> | Anyways good night |
| 02:03:15 | <hololeap> | I'm looking into DuplicateRecordFields, and it seems like it doesn't know how to disambiguate the name when it is used as a function, e.g. passed into something that takes (MyData -> MyField) |
| 02:03:27 | <hololeap> | is there another extension that can help with this? |
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| 02:05:35 | <hololeap> | I suppose TypeApplications... |
| 02:06:10 | <hololeap> | although at that point I might as well prepend the name of the data type to the record name |
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| 02:11:43 | <hololeap> | the docs are confusing because it almost sounds like it is allowed if it can reify which data type it needs. but here, if I replace the selector function with a hole _, it gives me the exact data type that it is expecting for the argument... so what gives? |
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| 02:20:10 | <hololeap> | here it is with the selector function: http://sprunge.us/rXNkIi ... and here it is with the hole: http://sprunge.us/jmfLco |
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| 02:40:35 | <hololeap> | interesting. this works: complete = completeNewtype MyItemId (id :: MyItemIdF -> IsComplete Text) |
| 02:40:56 | <hololeap> | but this doesn't: complete = completeNewtype MyItemId (id @MyItemIdF) |
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| 02:42:14 | <hololeap> | (same error as the first paste) |
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| 02:45:54 | <MorrowM> | hololeap: I think there's no type variable to fill in with the type application |
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| 03:05:52 | <hololeap> | yeah, that's what it looks like from the first error, but the hole shows a concrete type signature |
| 03:08:04 | <sm> | aand.. there goes old #haskell <sniff> |
| 03:08:29 | <sm> | freenode staff are taking over all the troublesome channels |
| 03:08:49 | <geekosaur> | meaning anyone trying to move over |
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| 03:10:33 | <phma> | what was freenodecom doing? |
| 03:11:02 | <slowButPresent> | hostile takeover |
| 03:11:06 | <sm> | edwardk: #haskell-game, #plaintextaccounting, #ledger, and soon #hledger I'm sure. And #haskell as you noticed. :/ They're hitting lots of channels. |
| 03:11:47 | <davean> | I disconnected from freenode, whats happening? |
| 03:12:03 | <sm> | phma: it redirects the #channel to ##channel, sets the topic to "in violation of policy" and sets new ops (freenode staff) on both channels |
| 03:12:20 | <sm> | davean, mass channel takeover. It'll be on HN soon I expect |
| 03:12:25 | <slowButPresent> | #perl also had all the ops get banned and the channel closed |
| 03:12:25 | <mniip> | it is |
| 03:12:27 | <mniip> | in a way |
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| 03:12:28 | <monochrom> | and locking down #channel e.g. +m |
| 03:13:03 | <phma> | what does a channel name beginning with ## mean? |
| 03:13:05 | <int-e> | good-bye, freenode #haskell. |
| 03:13:13 | <sm> | we didn't wish for this, but it was predictable :( |
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| 03:14:19 | <ddb> | phma: freenode policy was that off topic channels start with ## |
| 03:14:26 | <hololeap> | phma: it was something like a "generic" channel, not affiliated with any project or group |
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| 03:14:51 | <monochrom> | https://freenode.net/kb/answer/namespaces explains # vs ##. But basically "more official" vs "less official" |
| 03:15:17 | <monochrom> | For example C's is ##c |
| 03:15:21 | <monochrom> | math's is ##math |
| 03:15:23 | <int-e> | the writing was on the wall |
| 03:15:44 | <hololeap> | I'm honestly a bit surprised by the speed of the exodus |
| 03:16:09 | <hololeap> | I asked a question in freenode:#haskell today and was told to come here |
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| 03:18:03 | <zzz> | hololeap: you made it on time |
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| 03:18:17 | → | talismanick joins (~user@2601:644:8502:d700::94c9) |
| 03:18:40 | <talismanick> | I tried "cabal install brittany" and got a linker error, saying ld is not found. |
| 03:19:01 | <talismanick> | It very obviously is there (in /bin/ld) and in my PATH |
| 03:19:18 | <monochrom> | My view is optimistic. The hostile takeover unknowningly solves our biggest problem. |
| 03:19:32 | <talismanick> | (this is using the default setup from ghcup) |
| 03:20:19 | <hololeap> | <sm> freenode staff are taking over all the troublesome channels -- This is in direct contradiction with what has been posted on freenode.net lately, but given the size/speed of the exodus, I'll trust the people here :) |
| 03:20:26 | <sm> | monochrom: indeed, it makes the situation clearer. Let's just hope they stop there. |
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| 03:21:33 | <hololeap> | talismanick: you probably don't want to use `cabal install`, but what are you trying to do? |
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| 03:22:14 | <talismanick> | hololeap: Install the binary globally so I have a formatter for flycheck (Emacs error-reporting package) to pick up on inside haskell-mode |
| 03:23:20 | <talismanick> | Not everyone has a 32 core Threadripper with 64G of RAM to recompile the formatter, language server, etc per project |
| 03:24:07 | <hololeap> | not sure what the last comment is about... |
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| 03:24:30 | <talismanick> | hololeap: What flustered me about Haskell in the past was how long it took for all the tooling to compile |
| 03:24:42 | <talismanick> | and then Intero locked up Emacs while compiling even more |
| 03:25:13 | <hololeap> | heh, I compile all of the haskell repeatedly (I'm using Gentoo) and I generally use hardware from 10+ years ago |
| 03:25:28 | <talismanick> | I'm using a Thinkpad X200 |
| 03:25:29 | <hololeap> | s/the haskell/the haskell ecosystem |
| 03:26:20 | <hololeap> | talismanick: what distro are you on? |
| 03:26:24 | <talismanick> | hololeap: Void |
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| 03:26:48 | illegal | is now known as V |
| 03:27:11 | <dmwit> | talismanick: Perhaps with enough verbosity, cabal will tell you exactly what command it tried to execute. Might give a clue |
| 03:27:42 | <dmwit> | I think -v3 is full verbosity. |
| 03:27:57 | <talismanick> | dmwit: It did. It said it was trying to execute ld. |
| 03:27:58 | × | V quits (~v@anomalous.eu) (Client Quit) |
| 03:28:16 | <talismanick> | Specifically, it says 'gcc' failed in the phase 'Linker' |
| 03:28:27 | <talismanick> | But I compiled a C++ project not long ago |
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| 03:28:55 | <hololeap> | I wonder if it's looking specifically for /usr/bin/ld |
| 03:29:01 | <dmwit> | Wait, that's kind of a different error message. |
| 03:29:23 | <talismanick> | dmwit: It gave both. Do you want me to pastebin it? |
| 03:29:26 | <dmwit> | Maybe make a paste with some details? |
| 03:29:28 | <dmwit> | ...yeah =) |
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| 03:30:43 | <talismanick> | https://0x0.st/-eCh.txt |
| 03:31:02 | × | favonia quits (~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 03:31:31 | <talismanick> | hololeap: I thought about that. It'd be a bit strange... I suppose dropping in a symlink couldn't hurt. |
| 03:31:36 | <talismanick> | *famous last words* |
| 03:31:50 | <hololeap> | talismanick: I like your name, btw. portmanteau of talismanic and Nick? |
| 03:31:57 | <talismanick> | hololeap: indeed :) |
| 03:32:12 | <talismanick> | Actually a play on my first and last name |
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| 03:33:09 | <talismanick> | wait, there's already a /usr/bin/ld |
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| 03:33:38 | <talismanick> | Oh, /bin is symlinked to /usr/bin |
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| 03:33:46 | <talismanick> | glad I didn't undo that |
| 03:34:19 | <dmwit> | Is that -v3? It looks like it's doing a first call to ld with some, like, version flags or something, and not recognizing the output. |
| 03:35:09 | <dmwit> | If that is -v3, perhaps the extra verbose stuff got stuck in the mentioned log file, though I... thought cabal put it both in stdout and in the file, so that would be a bit weird. |
| 03:35:21 | <talismanick> | It's not v3 |
| 03:35:30 | <talismanick> | That just what I already had in my terminal |
| 03:37:11 | <int-e> | RIP lambdabot@freenode (I killed it half an hour ago) |
| 03:37:17 | <dmwit> | F |
| 03:37:34 | <dibblego> | woot! |
| 03:38:07 | <int-e> | seems pointless to keep it running with most of the channels taken over |
| 03:38:21 | <geekosaur> | statusbot / #haskell-infrastructure, hackage bot? |
| 03:38:23 | <int-e> | @botsnack |
| 03:38:23 | <lambdabot> | :) |
| 03:38:23 | <hololeap> | so the takeover is indeed hostile... |
| 03:38:40 | × | stelleg quits (~george@c-69-254-151-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net) (Read error: No route to host) |
| 03:38:50 | <int-e> | lambdabot is dead, long live lambdabot! |
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| 03:39:20 | <hololeap> | glad the admins had the foresight to set up a new network |
| 03:39:33 | <talismanick> | dmwit: https://0x0.st/-eCC.txt |
| 03:39:35 | <talismanick> | have at it |
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| 03:41:22 | <hololeap> | that looks like gcc cannot find ld |
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| 03:41:43 | <hololeap> | but you were able to compile earlier? |
| 03:42:33 | <talismanick> | yes |
| 03:42:35 | <talismanick> | That is correct |
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| 03:43:19 | <dmwit> | Okay, so it's ghc that's printing this message. |
| 03:43:32 | <dmwit> | Does ghc --info look right? |
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| 03:43:48 | <dmwit> | (There should be some lines about ld in its output.) |
| 03:44:17 | <dmwit> | What version of ghc is ~/.ghcup/bin/ghc? |
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| 03:44:46 | <talismanick> | interesting... |
| 03:44:52 | <talismanick> | it says it's set to use "lld" |
| 03:45:08 | <talismanick> | I suppose most Haskell developers are on Mac and use the LLVM toolchain by default? |
| 03:45:50 | <dmwit> | errr... I don't know the stats. I would have guessed Linux and not-LLVM. But probably most of the Mac users do indeed default to LLVM |
| 03:46:05 | <talismanick> | Oh, yep |
| 03:46:09 | <talismanick> | looks like it's compiling now |
| 03:46:24 | <talismanick> | Thanks for the help |
| 03:46:40 | <talismanick> | Now I need to figure out how to tell it to use ld instead so I can delete lld |
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| 03:48:07 | <dmwit> | -pgml |
| 03:48:52 | <dmwit> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/phases.html |
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| 03:49:56 | <dmwit> | ...though I don't know the right way to communicate that to cabal or stack. |
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| 03:52:29 | <dmwit> | I guess something like a cabal.project.local with `package: *\n ghc-options: -pmgl /bin/ld` or something like that. Seems like it would be nice to have something in ~/.cabal/config for this, but I don't know that there is. |
| 03:54:52 | <talismanick> | hololeap: What would be the correct way for a compute-poor user such as myself to compile brittany with minimal duplication of work? |
| 03:55:46 | <dmwit> | Perhaps nix has a cached binary. |
| 03:56:18 | talismanick | has vietnix flashbacks |
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| 03:58:50 | <hololeap> | talismanick: you'd have to explain what you mean by duplication of work |
| 03:59:47 | <hololeap> | from what I understand, ghc is a very poor compiler for setting something up like ccache |
| 03:59:48 | <talismanick> | hololeap: Not compiling it for every project |
| 04:00:14 | <hololeap> | yeah, nix is probably a good idea |
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| 04:01:13 | <hololeap> | talismanick: like I said, I just use Gentoo with an old AMD quad-core and 12 GB RAM |
| 04:01:20 | <dmwit> | If the goal is merely "one compile, many projects", cabal install is fine. |
| 04:01:30 | <talismanick> | dmwit: phew |
| 04:01:31 | <hololeap> | well, I didn't say the last part... :) |
| 04:01:32 | <dmwit> | If the goal is "zero compiles", you'll have to find binaries somewhere. |
| 04:01:37 | <talismanick> | that's what I was looking for |
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| 04:01:55 | <dmwit> | cabal install is completely fine for executables, IMO |
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| 04:02:19 | <dmwit> | Installing libraries with it is a bit dodgy. I don't really think we've worked out the right model for that yet. |
| 04:02:23 | <hololeap> | dmwit: how does it handle updates? |
| 04:02:30 | <dmwit> | hahahahahaha |
| 04:02:44 | <talismanick> | dmwit: Right, I drop those in the per-project setup file? |
| 04:03:00 | <dmwit> | talismanick: right |
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| 04:03:39 | <chadbrewbaker> | So what is the status of stack/GHC on M1? I tried building a few weeks ago and it did not go well '=D |
| 04:03:41 | <hololeap> | <hololeap> dmwit: how does it handle updates? |
| 04:03:44 | <talismanick> | hololeap: What's the last part? |
| 04:03:55 | <dmwit> | <dmwit> hahahahahaha |
| 04:04:03 | <hololeap> | rofl |
| 04:04:12 | <jle`> | hi everyone :) |
| 04:04:33 | <hololeap> | talismanick: last part? |
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| 04:05:57 | <talismanick> | hololeap: You said you didn't say it |
| 04:05:59 | <hololeap> | jle`: welcome! |
| 04:06:44 | <talismanick> | It's not "I hacked my university's computer lab to use all of it with distcc overnight", is it? |
| 04:07:07 | <hololeap> | talismanick: just a technicality... I never mentioned what hardware I was on specifically |
| 04:07:46 | <hololeap> | talismanick: you're exaggerating |
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| 04:08:09 | <hololeap> | overnight my old shit can compile 200 haskell packages |
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| 04:08:12 | <talismanick> | hololeap: AMD quadcore, 10+ years ago... is it a Piledriver CPU with a really high clock rate? |
| 04:08:15 | × | ddellacosta quits (~ddellacos@89.46.62.117) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 04:08:21 | <hololeap> | No |
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| 04:09:19 | <hololeap> | (It's funny because I configured my kernel improperly thinking it was a Piledriver) |
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| 04:10:04 | <hololeap> | AMD Athlon(tm) II X4 630 Processor |
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| 04:10:55 | <talismanick> | hololeap: Also, since you're a gentoo user |
| 04:10:56 | <talismanick> | https://inv.riverside.rocks/watch?v=S8s9uzPIqQ4 |
| 04:11:18 | <talismanick> | (I found this while looking for the classic "install Gentoo" video once) |
| 04:11:30 | <hololeap> | talismanick: you'd probably do fine |
| 04:11:46 | <hololeap> | Install Gentoo is just a meme for people who haven't tried it |
| 04:11:51 | <talismanick> | (warning: offensive) |
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| 04:11:57 | <hololeap> | lol |
| 04:12:12 | <talismanick> | Oh, I've installed it before. I stopped using it because compiling everything took way too long. |
| 04:12:15 | <hololeap> | tbh I've done it probably 100 times |
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| 04:12:42 | <hololeap> | that is the stupidest reason to stop installing gentoo I've ever heard :) |
| 04:13:09 | talismanick | cries in Firefox update |
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| 04:13:42 | <hololeap> | what is Void compared to Gentoo? |
| 04:13:42 | ← | joniibou parts (~textual@softbank060120010042.bbtec.net) (Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) |
| 04:14:17 | <talismanick> | Light enough, doesn't make me compile and fiddle with everything. |
| 04:14:38 | <hololeap> | fair, but is it source-based? |
| 04:14:45 | <talismanick> | ofc not |
| 04:14:53 | <hololeap> | ok, so why are you crying? |
| 04:15:11 | <talismanick> | That's why Gentoo took way too much of my time. |
| 04:15:28 | <talismanick> | I said "that's it" and settled for Arch, until I eventually found Void |
| 04:15:30 | <hololeap> | www-client/firefox-bin |
| 04:15:38 | <talismanick> | huh |
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| 04:15:58 | <hololeap> | to be fair, there's not very many binary packages |
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| 04:17:42 | <hololeap> | but it behaves nearly perfectly 99% of the time :D |
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| 04:19:29 | <hololeap> | tbh I get pissed off when using other distros. personal problem, I guess |
| 04:20:20 | <hololeap> | but the package QA is top-notch |
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| 04:32:27 | <hololeap> | talismanick: watched the video. hilarious |
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| 04:33:29 | <hololeap> | gentoo users are sup3r l33t h4x0rz w1th m4d sk1l5 |
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| 04:34:05 | <hololeap> | the 05 pwns any0n3 who g3ts n34r |
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| 04:37:17 | <hololeap> | everybody's m4d pwn4g3 is sup3r n00b compared to g3nt00 |
| 04:38:30 | <slowButPresent> | distcc is fun when it works |
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| 04:44:31 | <hololeap> | totally |
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| 04:56:59 | <talismanick> | Nice, looks like I can finally write something in Haskell without Emacs failing |
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| 05:02:38 | <oats> | Has #haskell in fr**node been hijacked yet? |
| 05:03:08 | <talismanick> | oats: According to r/haskell, yes |
| 05:04:30 | FullstackArchmag | is now known as pjetcetal |
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| 05:06:39 | <Axman6> | yeah they burnt it - Ed has regained control, but it won't stick around |
| 05:08:30 | <edwardk> | its currently forwarded to ##haskell on freenode for reasons |
| 05:08:40 | <Axman6> | they sent in a droid, shot all the ops in the head, removed all the bans, and redirected the channel to ##haskell, all because we'd dared to mention this network in the topic |
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| 05:08:48 | <edwardk> | but i have control. we don't have any of our ops left for the most part, etc. |
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| 05:09:07 | <edwardk> | but there's like 29 people in a topic chat room |
| 05:09:49 | <edwardk> | and its now appropriately a topic chatroom as the #haskell is the official channel, and er.. well, our irc page links to libera as the official network, so it seems most appropriate |
| 05:10:08 | <edwardk> | so currently #haskell forwards people to ##haskell |
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| 05:10:24 | <edwardk> | that may or may not give us more wiggle room on topic contents. not seeking to rock that boat right now |
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| 05:10:52 | <edwardk> | just wanting to make sure that when the bots come _someone_ can act. |
| 05:11:20 | <dy> | I bet the topic checking bot isn't especially bright. |
| 05:11:39 | <dy> | An infinite redirect loop or an infinite 16kbps download landmine would likely keep it busy for a while : ^ p |
| 05:11:54 | <dy> | (If they start crawling URLs and not just regex matching.) |
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| 05:17:51 | <oats> | edwardk: guess we have to resort to leaving riddles or something in topics now :P |
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| 05:18:41 | <edwardk> | oats: i just linked to the haskell.org/irc page, not a terribly good riddle, but its a breadcrumb for the curious who came expecting 2k people and found 20. |
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| 05:19:01 | <edwardk> | and its really just that i can't fit the names of 64+ haskell related topic channels in the channel topic. |
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| 05:19:44 | <Axman6> | "We have moved all out communications to use LibreOffice" |
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| 05:20:06 | <dy> | You're given a complex expression and a set of simple types and operations. |
| 05:20:19 | <dy> | When you work out (or infer) the type signature it spells the new server location. |
| 05:20:31 | <dibblego> | those with homework questions will be stuck, genius! |
| 05:20:40 | <Axman6> | ha |
| 05:20:43 | <dy> | Two birds, one stone! |
| 05:21:07 | <Axman6> | > map succ "irc.libre.chat#haskell |
| 05:21:08 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:33: error: |
| 05:21:08 | <lambdabot> | lexical error in string/character literal at end of input |
| 05:21:13 | <Axman6> | > map succ "irc.libre.chat #haskell" |
| 05:21:15 | <lambdabot> | "jsd/mjcsf/dibu!$ibtlfmm" |
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| 05:27:30 | <joeyh> | good idea, but you can also comment on the situation if you /topic map succ "hqb-khaqd-bg`s\US\"g`rjdkk" |
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| 05:42:03 | <steven1> | hello, let's say I have an Expr data type in a programming language, and I want to take an arbitrary Expr and replace some known pattern with another, for example maybe I want to replace a subexpression that consists of a Application to a Lambda with just the body of the Lambda. I wrote a fold for this data type, but I'm starting to think that it's not enough for what I want to do. It seems like I |
| 05:42:05 | <steven1> | need to fold over it while also reconstructing it as I go. What's the correct tool for this? |
| 05:43:05 | <steven1> | the fold is good for identifying those patterns, but swapping out a pattern for something else seems trickier |
| 05:43:09 | <dy> | It depends on the kind of replacements you want to do. i.e how much "context" above and below they need. |
| 05:43:36 | <dy> | This gets into fancier and trickier recursion schemes. |
| 05:43:57 | <steven1> | let's say I know how much context, e.g. my example of checking for (Application (Lambda ...) params) |
| 05:44:33 | <dy> | You could write a function that matches (Application (Lambda ...) params and returns your substitution (and recurses for ... and params) while leaving other stuff alone, no? |
| 05:44:33 | <xerox> | edwardk: I guess the ".tld" ones should say "-tld" on the irc page now? |
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| 05:44:49 | <dy> | rewrite (Application (Lambda ...) params = ... |
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| 05:44:56 | <dy> | rewrite other = other |
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| 05:45:06 | <edwardk> | xerox: yeah i mentioned it to davean after the page got pushed |
| 05:45:11 | <dy> | Then apply it to the top level Expr and you'll get back a new one. |
| 05:45:12 | <steven1> | well I need to recurse and look for subexpressions |
| 05:45:36 | <edwardk> | but i don't think anything has come of it pull request wise |
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| 05:45:47 | <steven1> | I could write it all out but I wouldn't be able to use it for anything else. I'm hoping there's a solution that's more general |
| 05:45:53 | <dy> | Can you paste a concrete (but minimal) example of the kind of rewrite you'd want to do? |
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| 05:46:04 | <xerox> | ok |
| 05:46:05 | <steven1> | yep let me write one up |
| 05:46:08 | <dy> | Well, each rewrite would require one function, right? |
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| 05:46:33 | <dy> | Then, you'd want to figure out how you could compose those all into a single function you can pass the entire Expr through... |
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| 05:46:43 | <xerox> | edwardk: btw do founder/ops status from fn carry over here or is it a brand new world |
| 05:46:55 | <edwardk> | all the ops/founder crap got reset |
| 05:47:13 | <edwardk> | i had to forge them from whole cloth. just did so for everyone in #haskell-ops |
| 05:47:25 | <edwardk> | at least the ones left over there |
| 05:47:33 | <dy> | steven1 it sounds like you want some generic way to declaratively specify arbitrary match-and-replace's of sub-Exprs. |
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| 05:47:39 | <dy> | That might be a lot more work than it's worth. |
| 05:47:44 | <steven1> | yes that's what I want |
| 05:47:49 | <steven1> | ah thought it might not be that bad |
| 05:47:57 | <steven1> | because the 'match' part is easy with a foldable instance |
| 05:48:11 | <dy> | How would you specify the rewrite rules? |
| 05:48:15 | <edwardk> | i'm just glad that most of the channels i ran were in ## namespaces where the eye of sauron didn't pass |
| 05:48:26 | <dy> | And would that specification be any shorter than a normal function that does the rewrite itself? |
| 05:48:47 | <dy> | This might be a case of YAGNI. |
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| 05:48:53 | <steven1> | mostly because I could only specify the cases I want. I'll give an example of what I'm imagining |
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| 05:50:08 | <dy> | You can specify only the cases you want with a plain old function too. |
| 05:50:10 | <steven1> | recurseSubstituteExpr (\e -> case e of App (Lam param body) arg -> body; a -> a) |
| 05:50:19 | <steven1> | pretend the first case makes sense :) |
| 05:50:23 | <dy> | rewrite1 (Foo ...) = ...; rewrite1 other = other |
| 05:50:28 | <dy> | rewrite2 (Foo ...) = ...; rewrite2 other = other |
| 05:50:36 | <dy> | Bar * |
| 05:51:00 | <dy> | And then compose the two, e.g. rewrite = rewrite2 . rewrite1 (or whatever other order is appropriate) |
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| 05:51:24 | <steven1> | that will only match Foo at the top level, I need to find occurences anywhere in the tree |
| 05:51:57 | <steven1> | there are other things like Case, Let, etc. the pattern I'm talking about could appear anywhere |
| 05:51:58 | <dy> | Ah yeah good point. A few ways to go about that. |
| 05:52:16 | <dy> | 1. Have a Foldable or similar instance to make the default case automatically peel off a layer and recurse. |
| 05:52:27 | <dy> | 2. Some weird split-apply-map type dealio. |
| 05:52:32 | <steven1> | yep I have the foldable instance |
| 05:53:31 | <steven1> | but seems that when I fold, I also need to reconstruct the expr as I go back up. And I don't know if it's actually possible, since some of the constructors take two sub-expressions for example |
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| 05:53:47 | <steven1> | it makes sense to reconstruct a list with a fold but not a tree |
| 05:53:55 | <steven1> | at least that's what it seems like |
| 05:53:59 | <c_wraith> | trees can be folded just fine. |
| 05:54:00 | <dy> | Right, or it could be that your rewrite removes a subtree. |
| 05:54:04 | <dy> | Or adds new ones. |
| 05:54:09 | <steven1> | yep |
| 05:54:10 | <dy> | Which also now need to be traversed. |
| 05:54:26 | <steven1> | well if it helps let's say the new ones don't necessarily have to be traversed |
| 05:54:32 | <dy> | There's probably a clever way to do this with Traversable or such, but I think just writing a normal function would be easier. |
| 05:54:53 | <dy> | yes, you'll have to add a default "do nothing and just recurse" case as you expand your Expr type, but that's likely way less work that implementing and debugging all of this. |
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| 05:54:58 | <dy> | Which, I think, amounts to a complete macro system. |
| 05:55:20 | <dy> | If this is a toy language or personal project, just KiSS. |
| 05:55:29 | <c_wraith> | I mean, you probably would want a paramorphism rather than a catamorphism, but there's no challenge using them for local rewrites. |
| 05:56:15 | <c_wraith> | on the other hand, some of the Plated tools in lens might also be interesting |
| 05:56:26 | <steven1> | yeah Plated is for recursion schemes right? |
| 05:56:39 | <c_wraith> | not exactly. Related, but not the same |
| 05:57:19 | <steven1> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.0.1/docs/Control-Lens-Combinators.html#v:rewrite |
| 05:57:22 | <steven1> | seems very related |
| 05:57:40 | <c_wraith> | yeah, the rewrite* family of functions are all variations on this idea |
| 05:58:09 | <dy> | c_wraith here with the better help |
| 05:58:21 | <dy> | I didn't realize rewrites were in lens! Neat. |
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| 06:02:01 | <steven1> | only thing is that we may not want to take the dependency on lens. I wonder is there any resource that shows how to derive this Plated concept from first principles, then maybe I can try to implement it myself for this specific data type? Hopefully I'm not asking too much here :) |
| 06:02:17 | <steven1> | or just some info on Plated, since I've only heard of it briefly |
| 06:02:18 | <c_wraith> | that idea is extracted from libraries like uniplate and biplate |
| 06:02:34 | <c_wraith> | so if you want smaller dependencies, they're options |
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| 06:03:35 | <steven1> | ok, I'll take a look |
| 06:03:46 | <steven1> | thanks a lot c_wraith dy ! |
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| 06:08:05 | <steven1> | so looking at Uniplate, it looks like I only need to implement one function for my datatype that does a transformation like this |
| 06:08:12 | <steven1> | uniplate (Add (Val 1) (Neg (Val 2))) = ([Val 1, Neg (Val 2)], \[a,b] -> Add a b) |
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| 06:08:23 | <steven1> | and everything else should follow from that I guess |
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| 06:23:47 | <Axman6> | I've never seen the rewrite parts of lens before, how exciting! I've used the partsOf template party trick many times but it's nice to see there's lots of ways to do crazy things |
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| 06:26:00 | <steven1> | Axman6: I'm curious, what's the trick? |
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| 06:27:54 | <Axman6> | % (Just "Hello","world!", ["Here","are","some","strings"]) & partsOf template %~ (reverse :: [Char] -> [Char]) |
| 06:27:54 | <yahb> | Axman6: (Just "sgnir","tsemos",["erae","reH","!dlr","owolleH"]) |
| 06:28:07 | <Axman6> | % (Just "Hello","world!", ["Here","are","some","strings"]) & partsOf template %~ (reverse :: [[Char]] -> [[Char]]) |
| 06:28:07 | <yahb> | Axman6: (Just "strings","some",["are","Here","world!","Hello"]) |
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| 06:29:14 | <steven1> | wow |
| 06:29:34 | <Axman6> | % (Just "Hello","world!", ["Here","are","some","strings"]) & partsOf template %~ (reverse :: [[[Char]]] -> [[[Char]]]) |
| 06:29:34 | <yahb> | Axman6: (Just "Hello","world!",["Here","are","some","strings"]) |
| 06:30:10 | <Axman6> | % (Just "Hello","world!", ["Here","are","some","strings"]) & partsOf template %~ (map reverse :: [[[Char]]] -> [[[Char]]]) |
| 06:30:10 | <yahb> | Axman6: (Just "Hello","world!",["strings","some","are","Here"]) |
| 06:30:38 | <steven1> | and apparently template is similar to uniplate https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.0.1/docs/Data-Data-Lens.html#v:template |
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| 06:31:05 | <Axman6> | yeah I have never had a good idea of what the differences are |
| 06:31:28 | <Axman6> | it's a party trick, I don't need to understand it :) |
| 06:31:58 | <Axman6> | but it does open up some really interesting possibilities, you can do things like apply a function to all strings which are URLs across a whole structure |
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| 07:03:56 | <edwardk> | I may be reading too many ML papers lately, but "rasengan" implies the existence of both discriminator and generator networks. This might explain recent freenode discrimination policy changes. There's a foss function joke in there somewhere to be had. |
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| 07:07:54 | <Axman6> | Get some sleep Ed :P |
| 07:08:19 | <Hecate> | the existence of a South-Korean prince IRC overlord called "rasengan" implies the existence of a North-Korean general IPoAC operator called "chidori" |
| 07:08:19 | <edwardk> | Axman6: can't sleep clowns will eat me. |
| 07:08:38 | <Axman6> | clowns will eat the network |
| 07:10:46 | <edwardk> | #freenode-* is full of clown price jokes and dear leader references right now |
| 07:11:35 | <alloca> | the network formerly known as freenode |
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| 07:40:57 | <boxscape> | "Support the design for dependent types" has just been accepted |
| 07:41:02 | <boxscape> | https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/pull/378 |
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| 07:42:26 | <bontaq> | ooo |
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| 07:44:54 | <wz1000> | can only imagine the drama that went on behind the scenes suggested by Iavor resigning recently |
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| 07:45:08 | <tomsmeding_> | edwardk: ircbrowse has failed to join this channel since may 22nd apparently; maybe the issue is that I should register with nickserv but I'm not doing so. I feel like dropping freenode entirely at this point though |
| 07:45:11 | <bontaq> | I wonder if leaning into dependent types will simplify GHC? I've only poked around at them but I've heard it makes a lot of trickier features in compilers simpler |
| 07:45:48 | <wz1000> | bontaq: I doubt it. |
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| 07:47:06 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: can I drop #xmonad on freenode from ircbrowse or do you want me to keep it for a while? |
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| 07:48:13 | <boxscape> | Alas GHC will at least have to maintain two separate namespaces for a long time, for backcompat |
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| 08:08:45 | <bontaq> | that really is fantastic news that it was accepted, I was worried that haskell would lean too much into industrial, simplified land and not enough into research |
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| 08:09:44 | <bontaq> | but now I can pretty happily spend the next decade in it and know the future's bright |
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| 08:32:34 | <starlord> | is there some structured method or what you would call it, to deconstruct an explicitly recursive function to a (cata|ana|para|zygo|.*)morphism? |
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| 08:34:16 | <starlord> | I've used the recursion schemes quite a lot lately and I'm starting to build a strong intuition for how they work but when I look at my old explicitly recursive functions I can't really tell how to reorganize them, so I figured there might be some formal method or something to do this |
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| 08:48:02 | <siraben> | starlord: for catamorphisms there's a nice technique (for lists) laid out in https://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/fold.pdf |
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| 08:50:48 | <starlord> | siraben thank you, I'll check that out |
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| 08:52:58 | <siraben> | starlord: also, there are quite a few fusion laws for those recursion schemes, such as how to combine two catamorphisms into one and more |
| 08:53:14 | <starlord> | It'd be nice to have some visual aid when working on those old recursive traversals, like when you draw arrows and types with the cathegory thery "notation" |
| 08:55:40 | <siraben> | starlord: ah, commuting diagrams are the right tool for that yes |
| 08:55:50 | <siraben> | I think https://www4.di.uminho.pt/~jno/ps/pdbc.pdf is a great resource on this |
| 08:55:54 | <starlord> | ah that's interesting, I've been doing a lot of transforming trees lately where I transform my concrete syntax tree into an abstract one through several levels of catamorphisms |
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| 08:56:21 | <siraben> | starlord: so you know about F-algebras? |
| 08:56:36 | <siraben> | that is, how you can define cata for a fixpoing of a functor F |
| 08:56:39 | <siraben> | fixpoint* |
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| 08:57:25 | <starlord> | yes, I've been trying to draw them and I pretty much understand them at some level |
| 08:57:38 | <siraben> | ah, nice |
| 08:58:22 | <starlord> | the hardest part for me is understanding the fixpoint datatype though. I mean I can get the code to run but after battling the compiler for a good while every time |
| 08:58:44 | <siraben> | oh also conal.net/talks/folds-and-unfolds.pdf is great |
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| 09:00:18 | <arahael> | weird, i thought the haskell channel on freenode was closed? still 60-somethings there. |
| 09:00:45 | <starlord> | cheers mate, you've helped me out massively! |
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| 09:01:43 | <siraben> | no problem! this stuff is fun for sure :) |
| 09:01:48 | <boxscape> | arahael https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/nl74hc/freenode_has_unilaterally_taken_over_haskell/ |
| 09:02:04 | <starlord> | siraben it is fun, for a very particular kind of people haha! |
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| 09:04:33 | <siraben> | starlord: there's also the venerable Algebra of Programming of book where I learned this stuff, but I literally needed to get a math professor to read it with me |
| 09:04:50 | <siraben> | I think Program Design by Calculation does a great job of making it easier to understand |
| 09:04:58 | <siraben> | s/Programming of// |
| 09:05:07 | <starlord> | It seems like a good book |
| 09:05:17 | <arahael> | boxscape: thanks for that! |
| 09:05:23 | <starlord> | I like that picture on page 3 |
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| 09:15:50 | <tomsmeding> | arahael: perhaps you landed in freenode##haskell? |
| 09:16:06 | <tomsmeding> | (mind the double #) |
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| 09:17:14 | <arahael> | tomsmeding: Nope, the single-hash. |
| 09:17:21 | <arahael> | Let me try again. |
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| 09:17:41 | tomsmeding | left a few minutes ago, but when I did there were still 400+ users there (all non-voiced so unable to speak since the forced move) |
| 09:17:57 | <arahael> | Ah, found it. Yep, you're right - auto-forwards to ##haskell now. |
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| 09:30:52 | <curiousgay> | is there a boolean xor in base Haskell? |
| 09:31:54 | <wz1000> | curiousgay: (/=) |
| 09:31:55 | <Taneb> | curiousgay: (/=) |
| 09:32:17 | <curiousgay> | haha, right, thanks |
| 09:32:48 | <Taneb> | Data.Bits.xor also works since base 4.7 |
| 09:33:14 | <Taneb> | Which... is older than I thought (was bundled with GHC 7.8) |
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| 09:41:42 | <curiousgay> | are there flags for GHC to print type errors more clearly? |
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| 09:42:11 | <curiousgay> | there is a type error, I know where it is, but I don't why it is there |
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| 09:45:22 | <bfrk> | curiousgay: I am sure if you paste the error somewhere and provide a link someone can explain to you how to parse it |
| 09:45:43 | <bfrk> | s/error/err message/ |
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| 09:47:57 | <curiousgay> | bfrk: alright, here are the error and code: https://pastebin.com/raw/ktuPjqjH https://pastebin.com/raw/1VRm4KMX |
| 09:48:57 | <merijn> | curiousgay: Ah |
| 09:49:02 | <merijn> | curiousgay: You messed up the $ |
| 09:50:14 | <merijn> | hmm, or not, |
| 09:50:35 | <merijn> | I would say you should simplify it anyway to get something more readable :p |
| 09:50:41 | <curiousgay> | merijn: the code I've sent is a conversion of the previous working code I've written; https://pastebin.com/raw/KY3ZMHvT |
| 09:50:41 | <merijn> | For one: |
| 09:50:43 | <merijn> | :t mapMaybe |
| 09:50:44 | <lambdabot> | (a -> Maybe b) -> [a] -> [b] |
| 09:50:54 | <merijn> | Can replace the map + filter |
| 09:51:40 | <merijn> | curiousgay: findLetters returns a list, presumably? |
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| 09:51:57 | <curiousgay> | yes |
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| 09:53:17 | <merijn> | curiousgay: Here's an easy way to start: Try adding type signatures for everything in the where block |
| 09:53:44 | <merijn> | (one, because I'm too lazy to figure them out and two, you will get more precise errors) |
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| 09:59:10 | <bfrk> | Well, the error message tells us the (inferred) type of some local bindings (findLetters, coords). |
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| 10:03:22 | <bfrk> | It also tells that the highlighted expression is a function with the correct input type. But the output (result) has an excess Maybe layer. |
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| 10:04:32 | <bfrk> | I think to see where the error originates we need to have the type of 'go'. |
| 10:05:04 | <enicar> | I think the use of `fromMaybe [] . listToMaybe` is suspicious, unless the type result is [[a]]… |
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| 10:06:38 | <bfrk> | @ty fromMaybe [] . listToMaybe |
| 10:06:39 | <lambdabot> | [[a]] -> [a] |
| 10:06:52 | <Schrostfutz> | I'm trying to find an error in my code: http://sprunge.us/4gUYUf. I'm wondering whether it's invalid to mix applicative syntax and monadic binds like that, is it possible to do it? |
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| 10:07:50 | <Rembane> | Schrostfutz: That should be possible. Does it typecheck? |
| 10:08:19 | <maerwald> | seems like the first <*> should be a <$>, but that's just a guess |
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| 10:08:26 | <bfrk> | I think you want your first <*> to be <$> |
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| 10:10:31 | <bfrk> | curiousgay: the easiest way to find the type of something is to add a signature with a hole: <expr> :: _ |
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| 10:11:47 | <bfrk> | ahem, doesn't work a for an expression, should be a variable |
| 10:12:06 | <curiousgay> | merijn: thanks, that helped me to fix the type error |
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| 10:24:38 | <Schrostfutz> | maerwald, bfrk: You're right, that fixed it. Rembane: It didn't but I was struggling interpreting the mismatch error message |
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| 10:35:50 | <starlord> | What I like to do a lot (part from using holes) is to do something like `let thing = <expr; let k = thing :: Int`, the compiler will yell about not being able to unify <type you need> with Int. I found it a bit more reliable than holes because constraining the type to a hole is not an error so the compiler will happily continue |
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| 10:36:51 | <therion> | I prefer doing this way as well, using holes sometimes gives me nothing. |
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| 10:38:04 | <starlord> | conceptually using `Void` instead would be better but that requires an import :| |
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| 10:39:34 | <bfrk> | Sometime I use an arbitrary simple type like Char, look at the error message, then refine. |
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| 10:40:33 | <bfrk> | Especially in cases where _ doesn't work |
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| 10:40:47 | <starlord> | bfrk what do you mean by refine? |
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| 10:40:58 | <Guest53e> | Is Haskell growing or stagnant in industry? |
| 10:41:04 | <Guest53e> | worth investment? |
| 10:41:15 | <maerwald> | Guest53e: in what sense investment? |
| 10:41:32 | <bfrk> | e.g. if it tells me that the thing is a function I may change it to Char -> Char and so on |
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| 10:41:55 | <Guest53e> | for learning myself or adopting in my workplace. (btw, when i mention "haskell" people tend to run away and ghost me) |
| 10:42:08 | <Guest53e> | i think there's something about it that turns some people off |
| 10:42:09 | <ksqsf> | Z.Haskell seems to be a recent industrial product |
| 10:42:11 | <maerwald> | "adopting in my workplace" needs mote context |
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| 10:42:52 | <bfrk> | Guest53e: I had that experience, too, where I work |
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| 10:43:05 | <maerwald> | choosing technology should be done with care and haskell might or might not be the right fit, it depends |
| 10:43:11 | <starlord> | Guest53e I've never worked with haskell professionally, and I don't know anyone who ever did personally, and I think it's a bit esoteric to take over something older like Rust is doing. So if you want to learn a language to increase your chanses of finding jobs you should not learn haskell. However, there are many other reasons to learn haskell. |
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| 10:44:31 | <maerwald> | There are increasingly many jobs in haskell, but IME they're tough in selection process |
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| 10:44:41 | <mniip> | it's a narrow niche |
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| 10:45:12 | <Guest53e> | ok maybe best to learn for hobby and worry about pro later |
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| 10:46:11 | <bfrk> | IMO Haskell is very well suited for routine data processing stuff that people used to do in Perl and nowadays mostly use Python for. |
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| 10:46:43 | <maerwald> | bfrk: I have high hopes for streamly becoming the de-facto standard for such things |
| 10:47:03 | <Guest53e> | bfrk there are just so many things you can model with ADT that doing with objects is ... PITA. |
| 10:47:05 | <bfrk> | The type discipline makes the result rock solid and the compiler makes it pretty fast. |
| 10:47:07 | <maerwald> | but the rewrite rules and inlining is so complex it appears to break with every other GHC release |
| 10:47:18 | <bfrk> | what is streamly? |
| 10:47:30 | <maerwald> | the fastes streaming implementation in haskell |
| 10:47:43 | <maerwald> | https://github.com/composewell/streamly |
| 10:47:47 | <bfrk> | thx |
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| 10:48:23 | <ksqsf> | i've been thinking lately of a possibility where i use haskell to express logic (with its expressivity and composibility) and generate high-performance code (C or Python or anything) from haskell code |
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| 10:48:34 | <Guest53e> | bfrk i don't know what people "hate" about haskell thou. maybe comfort zone and plateu reached. maybe genuine criticisms. hard to know |
| 10:48:40 | <bfrk> | I think streaming is important but I find it gets a bit overhyped. Many tasks cannot be streamed properly, you need back references etc |
| 10:48:42 | <ksqsf> | does anyone use haskell this way and has experience? |
| 10:48:58 | ← | simon1 parts (~simon@91-114-147-117.adsl.highway.telekom.at) () |
| 10:50:12 | <bfrk> | I lately proposed a re-write of some perl code (1/3 the size of the original, 10 times faster) but the idea was rejected |
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| 10:50:55 | <maerwald> | I believe in rewrites, but in the same language |
| 10:50:59 | <Guest53e> | bfrk what reasons did they give? |
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| 10:51:34 | <tdammers> | IME, "hating" Haskell is often a matter of mindset. a programming language is only going to be pleasant if it somehow resonates with how you want to approach programming, and Haskell, being very far on the "deduction" side of things, absolutely does not resonate with the "trial and error" mindset |
| 10:52:02 | <maerwald> | tdammers: yeah, that's why I prototype in python |
| 10:52:02 | <starlord> | tdammers good point |
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| 10:52:18 | <maerwald> | if I don't know what I'm doing, I don't wanna write haskell |
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| 10:52:36 | <maerwald> | if I have a clear picture, I do |
| 10:52:38 | <tdammers> | I do, but that's because it lends itself well to my workflow and my way of thinking about a problem |
| 10:52:59 | <tdammers> | "OK, let's see, what do we have", and then I write down the constraints of the problem domain that I know about |
| 10:53:09 | <Guest53e> | maerwald but haskell (ADT) allows you to create unclear picture and change it to clearer picture easier! |
| 10:53:20 | <Guest53e> | :D |
| 10:53:22 | <maerwald> | I'm more behavior-driven when it comes to prototypes... so python or bash |
| 10:53:26 | <starlord> | maerwald I usually start demain modeling in haskell, only writing the ADT's I need, when you're done with that you basically know what you're doing |
| 10:53:28 | <tdammers> | I kind of evolve a "type harness", which helps me ignore the stuff that doesn't matter |
| 10:53:37 | <maerwald> | when I understand the behavior, I try to figure out how to encode it |
| 10:53:40 | <tdammers> | and then the refactorability does the rest |
| 10:53:54 | <tdammers> | right, yeah, I don't care about "behavior" as much as I care about data structures |
| 10:54:32 | <boxscape> | % Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce (putStrLn "hello") GHC.Exts.void# |
| 10:54:32 | <yahb> | boxscape: hello |
| 10:54:33 | <boxscape> | ayy no segfault |
| 10:54:42 | <tdammers> | what do I have, what do I want - those are types; how do I get what I want from what I have - that's a function. |
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| 10:55:19 | <tdammers> | "can I write that function, and if so, how" is a question that's secondary to the thought process, really |
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| 10:57:32 | <boxscape> | still trying to figure out how to unsafeCoerce getLine without getting a segfault |
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| 11:01:59 | <boxscape> | % let fakeGetLine = pure @IO "input" in case Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce fakeGetLine GHC.Exts.void# of (# _ :: GHC.Exts.Void#, str :: String #) -> str |
| 11:02:00 | <yahb> | boxscape: "input" |
| 11:02:01 | <boxscape> | alright |
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| 11:02:10 | <Guest53e> | ty all for the convo |
| 11:02:20 | <boxscape> | I'm actually surprised that String is different from (# Void#, String #) in terms of runtime rep |
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| 11:02:45 | <maerwald> | tdammers: I find it fascinating how different approaches can be in programming and, sadly, very little literature and research about it. |
| 11:03:03 | <maerwald> | As in: philosophy and psychology of programming is an understudied field |
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| 11:03:56 | <maerwald> | the concept of "complexity" alone (in non-technical terms even) is a controversial one |
| 11:04:12 | <maerwald> | people experience complexity different |
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| 11:08:19 | <maerwald> | I experience anxiety if I can't follow program control flow anymore, so OOP naturally feels "complex" to me. But I know others that don't need the concept of control flow |
| 11:08:28 | <agumonke`> | do you think that good code is always a projection of a good structure / mental map of the problem and thus "clean" |
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| 11:09:18 | <agumonke`> | maerwald: smalltalk oop is a tad less imperative/stateful and felt easier, but java oop is a drag to me.. potential statefulness breaks my neurons very rapidly |
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| 11:11:44 | <maerwald> | even "message passing", which some consider good OOP is too much for me |
| 11:11:56 | <maerwald> | that's also why I stay away from network programming |
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| 11:13:35 | <maerwald> | being exhaustive about potential problems in a network setting isn't particularly easy |
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| 11:16:09 | <maerwald> | so maybe there's an emotional component about how you perceive technical complexity |
| 11:16:22 | <maerwald> | fear of disconnection? ;) |
| 11:17:34 | <xprlgjf> | ksqsf: http://haskellembedded.github.io/ discusses tools such as Ivory for generating C code from haskell. |
| 11:17:52 | <xprlgjf> | sometimes discussed on #haskell-embedded |
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| 11:19:51 | <ksqsf> | xprlgjf thanks for the pointers! |
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| 11:25:34 | <starlord> | I need an ordered and non empty set type, is there such a data structure available already? |
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| 11:27:16 | <pavonia> | Is freenode/#haskell officially dead now? |
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| 11:28:14 | <Vq> | It was brought out back and shot. You could join ##Haskell on freenode I guess. |
| 11:28:23 | <maerwald> | not sure how that would ever be official |
| 11:28:35 | <Vq> | That is if you really wanted to stay on that network. |
| 11:29:17 | <Vq> | I imagine that you get rerouted to that channel if you try to join now. |
| 11:29:42 | <__monty__> | maerwald: Freenode ops took over channels and set up redirects to ##topical. |
| 11:29:50 | <pavonia> | I'm asking because several channels redirect to their ##-counterparts now, which wasn't the case yesterday |
| 11:30:20 | <__monty__> | It's pretty much all the channels that had "libera.chat" in their topic. Even if it was to say "We're not on libera.chat yet." |
| 11:30:31 | <maerwald> | they still have ops? interesting |
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| 11:38:12 | <kritzefitz> | maerwald, s/still/again/ as I understand it. |
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| 12:15:15 | <xerox> | why is HLS a 380MB download and GHC 180MB |
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| 12:16:12 | <merijn> | Better compression on GHC? :p |
| 12:16:31 | <_________> | better optimization of GHC? ;) |
| 12:17:11 | <maerwald> | my program on windows only outputs to stdout and with exit status 0 if I run it via `strace`... |
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| 12:19:20 | <mc47> | Hello, I was wondering if there's a function for a function with this signature: `(a -> b -> (c, b)) -> [a] -> b -> [c]` |
| 12:19:23 | <wz1000> | xerox: because HLS includes all of GHC and much more |
| 12:19:47 | <xerox> | that's a lot more! |
| 12:20:00 | <mc47> | it's kinda like map, but also takes has an accumulator? I guess it's clear what it's supposed to do from the signature |
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| 12:20:20 | <mc47> | used it a couple of times so I was wondering if it's common enough to deserve a name |
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| 12:21:02 | <xerox> | :t mapAccumL |
| 12:21:03 | <lambdabot> | Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c) |
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| 12:23:53 | <xerox> | they got some bits flipped from yours but it's that |
| 12:24:53 | <mc47> | that's cool, thanks xerox |
| 12:25:12 | <xerox> | yw! |
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| 12:41:59 | <lbseale> | is there a way to know the type signature of variables in functions without HLS? Like does GHCI have a feature to do this? |
| 12:43:15 | <lbseale> | I say "variables", I mean anything inside a function definition |
| 12:43:18 | <hpc> | :t let foo = _ 5 in foo |
| 12:43:21 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 12:43:21 | <lambdabot> | • Found hole: _ :: Integer -> t1 |
| 12:43:21 | <lambdabot> | Where: ‘t1’ is a rigid type variable bound by |
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| 12:43:48 | <arahael> | What's "HLS"? |
| 12:43:59 | <hpc> | you can use holes |
| 12:44:03 | <hpc> | arahael: haskell language server |
| 12:44:03 | <Scraeling> | Language server probably |
| 12:44:05 | <lbseale> | Haskell Language Server |
| 12:44:07 | da39a3ee5e6b4b0d | is now known as enc |
| 12:44:07 | <arahael> | Ah, nice. |
| 12:44:14 | enc | is now known as enchoi |
| 12:44:24 | <arahael> | In other languages, I just substitute "Int" as my hole, and watch for the compiler to complain of a type mismatch. |
| 12:44:44 | <arahael> | lbseale: I often setup ghcid. It's awesome. |
| 12:45:11 | <lbseale> | hpc: so you just replace something with a _ and then look at the error? |
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| 12:46:08 | <hpc> | yep |
| 12:46:29 | <arahael> | lbseale: It gives plenty of helpful suggestions as well, sometimes even suggesting what it should be. |
| 12:46:41 | <hpc> | it's great for when you're writing fresh code |
| 12:46:46 | <lbseale> | I ask because I'm writing Haskell at work, and I'm not sure the sysadmin would let me install HLS |
| 12:46:55 | <boxscape> | lbseale it tells you also which variables are in scope and the type of them |
| 12:47:23 | <lbseale> | arahael: boxscape thanks, I'll look into this |
| 12:47:44 | <boxscape> | (and hpc :P) |
| 12:48:04 | <lbseale> | yes thanks to hpc |
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| 12:49:04 | <zebrag> | __monty__: hi |
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| 12:50:49 | <zebrag> | Is there already a matrix bridge? |
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| 12:51:48 | <boxscape> | zebrag no, but https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/nl74hc/freenode_has_unilaterally_taken_over_haskell/gzhf0ye/ |
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| 12:54:53 | <yushyin> | zebrag: afaik they are working on it. join #matrix if you want news updates |
| 12:55:06 | <zebrag> | What about making a bridge with a bot to the existing https://app.element.io/#/room/#haskell:matrix.org |
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| 12:55:15 | <zebrag> | So as to merge the two channels? |
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| 12:55:22 | <zebrag> | maybe it's just not possible |
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| 13:07:56 | <zebrag> | IMO, it's not convenient to have many entry points: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5ZdPD5WAAMvvGS.jpg |
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| 13:09:32 | <zebrag> | It is tidy, but not friendly (for the sake of the rhyme) |
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| 13:47:32 | <hololeap> | lexi-lambda.github.io is some of the best tutorials I've ever seen... |
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| 14:27:57 | <hololeap> | what's the best monad for failures, but it keeps going to collect all of them? would that just be Writer? |
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| 14:29:20 | <maerwald> | hololeap: Excepts |
| 14:29:36 | <maerwald> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskus-utils-variant-3.0/docs/Haskus-Utils-Variant-Excepts.html |
| 14:29:44 | <merijn> | hololeap: Can't be a monad |
| 14:29:54 | <merijn> | hololeap: Best you can do is Applicative (aka Validation) |
| 14:30:06 | <merijn> | Or maybe These |
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| 14:31:16 | <hololeap> | maerwald: that looks intimidating but also really cool |
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| 14:31:55 | <maerwald> | hololeap: https://docs.haskus.org/variant/excepts.html |
| 14:32:05 | <maerwald> | illustration of use |
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| 14:32:42 | <maerwald> | however, two downsides are: 1. you break type inference and need a lot of type applications and 2. you need to basically liftE everything |
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| 14:34:19 | <maerwald> | but it allows rethrowing etc, like https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/blob/master/lib/GHCup/Errors.hs#L244 |
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| 14:34:39 | <maerwald> | so you can have an error stack, sorta |
| 14:34:51 | <maerwald> | but that's all done manually |
| 14:34:59 | <maerwald> | so ergonomics is debatable |
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| 14:36:28 | <hololeap> | I was thinking of: WriterT [SomeException] m a -> ExceptT [SomeException] m a |
| 14:36:35 | <hololeap> | which isn't really a monad, but... |
| 14:36:58 | <maerwald> | type level list of exceptions is cooler |
| 14:37:45 | <maerwald> | otherwise you really have no information about what stuff needs to be catched at a given point in the callstack |
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| 14:39:25 | <maerwald> | as in: sum types for errors are wrong! |
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| 14:41:31 | <hololeap> | well, in this case I want: [IsValid a] -> Either WhatWasntValid [a] |
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| 14:49:18 | <merijn> | hololeap: That's Validation |
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| 14:49:47 | <hololeap> | as opposed to what? |
| 14:49:57 | <merijn> | hololeap: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/either-5.0.1.1/docs/Data-Either-Validation.html |
| 14:50:44 | <hololeap> | merijn: yeah, that looks like what I want |
| 14:51:03 | <merijn> | As I said before, it cannot be a Monad though, only Applicative |
| 14:51:12 | <merijn> | but that's good enough for lots of things |
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| 14:51:19 | <hololeap> | That's fine |
| 14:51:22 | <opqdonut> | huh, interesting |
| 14:51:37 | <opqdonut> | I only knew of https://hackage.haskell.org/package/validation |
| 14:51:41 | <opqdonut> | I wonder which came first? |
| 14:51:59 | <merijn> | Almost certainly the one by edwardk? ;) |
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| 14:52:17 | <opqdonut> | looks like the validation one has copyrights from 2010, ekmett from 2014 |
| 14:52:36 | <merijn> | First upload of first version was 2014, though |
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| 14:52:41 | <merijn> | (for validation) |
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| 14:53:28 | <opqdonut> | mmh |
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| 14:53:42 | <talismanick> | Does anyone still use hasky-cabal? |
| 14:53:43 | <opqdonut> | so maybe a case of an internal library being opensourced |
| 14:53:52 | <talismanick> | Archived in 2018, but I don't see a modern alternative |
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| 14:54:25 | <talismanick> | (if I missed something obvious, please do tell) |
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| 14:55:17 | <opqdonut> | merijn: funny story here actually, I came up with the concept of the validation applicative on my own when trying to invent a nice example for teaching Applicatives |
| 14:55:19 | <edwardk> | fwiw- i think i adopted the validation type from the data61 codebase not the other way around |
| 14:55:33 | <opqdonut> | merijn: then I googled "haskell validation" and found the library :) |
| 14:58:10 | <opqdonut> | the subtle difference seems to be that Data.Either.Validation has a Monoid constraint on the errors, and Data.Validation only has Semigroup |
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| 14:58:22 | <opqdonut> | this means Data.Either.Validation is an Alternative, but Data.Validation is merely an Alt |
| 14:58:47 | <opqdonut> | I kinda like not having support for the "empty error": you always need to specify what went wrong |
| 14:58:47 | <hololeap> | hm, I was thinking something like NonEmpty would be a good choice for `e` |
| 14:58:54 | <opqdonut> | hololeap: indeed |
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| 15:00:35 | <hololeap> | although, I'm not really seeing many Monoid constraints in Data.Either.Validation |
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| 15:01:27 | <opqdonut> | yeah you're right the docs say "Validation is Either with a Left that is a Monoid" |
| 15:01:38 | <opqdonut> | but the instances mostly only require Semigroup, except for the Alternative |
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| 15:04:07 | <bbhoss> | I'm using HLS with the VSCode extension. I have a project that compiles just fine but for some reason HLS thinks that one of the imported modules doesn't export functions that I know are exported, and that the compiler sees just fine. Any idea on how to debug/reset this? |
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| 15:07:19 | <hololeap> | bbhoss: I ran into that working on a project that is both a lib and an executable. I ended up making symlinks in the executable src dir so that HLS would see them |
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| 15:52:19 | <edwardk> | In a fit of boredom and as a joke like 8 people will bother to get and those that do won't find funny, I've registered cofreenode.net and pointed irc.cofreenode.net at chat.freenode.net. |
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| 15:53:05 | <monochrom> | Oh, you. :) |
| 15:53:36 | <opqdonut> | I think it's a bit more than 8 tho |
| 15:53:53 | <monochrom> | I bothered to ask who did it :) |
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| 16:06:12 | <nsilv> | rofl |
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| 16:10:52 | <Schrostfutz> | I'm trying to wrap my head around a problem with parsing: Say I have three parsers that return distinct types and I know I can use all of them in succession, just not in which order, how could I implement that? I struggle to come up with a proper solution. My current thought process is to implement an n-ary Either Parser, use partition on that and ensure that the resulting lists are each singletons. But my intuition tells me that's |
| 16:10:52 | <Schrostfutz> | quite elaborate for the goal. |
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| 16:13:56 | <hololeap> | Schrostfutz: you would have to create a sum type that enumerates each of them and then hold some kind of state so that you can check that they don't repeat during parsing. I think that's how you would have to do it |
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| 16:14:41 | <hololeap> | assuming you don't want repeats of the three types. If you _do_ allow that it will be much simpler |
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| 16:15:07 | <davean> | Schrostfutz: I mean try a list of parsers, try the next list of parsers, etc? Just because you don't know what order you'll parse them in doesn't mean you have to store them out of order |
| 16:15:16 | <davean> | you can fill in a datastructure with a fixed order |
| 16:15:17 | <hololeap> | Although, it would make sense to have each type in a specified order |
| 16:15:48 | <davean> | he said "singletons" so I think he means without replacement |
| 16:16:30 | <Schrostfutz> | hololeap: No, all of them should be present exactly once. The problem is, that I'm parsing a protocol that doesn't specify the order, even though in practice it will always be the same... |
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| 16:16:53 | <davean> | but if you start with a function \_ _ _ _ -> result, you can fill in the holes, and wrap at each step with a function that takes reuse of the filled in entries to errors or something |
| 16:17:08 | <davean> | that is if each parameter is maybe |
| 16:17:14 | <davean> | Like theres a lot of ways to do this |
| 16:17:22 | <hololeap> | in that case you probably want to create a sum type with an Ord instance, then pass along a Set as your state so that you can keep track of them. |
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| 16:19:20 | <Schrostfutz> | To avoid the x-y problem: I'm parsing a protocol that's a list of commands which each have a list of attributes. I implemented a generic version of this (i.e. having a Command & Attribute product type), now I want to extend is to interpret the individual commands (i.e. FooCommand, BarCommand as sum type) because the set of attributes for each command is well-defined. |
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| 16:19:51 | <hololeap> | are you using any particular library to parse it |
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| 16:20:14 | <davean> | Well, why aren't you just processing a list of commands like they came in then? |
| 16:20:30 | <Schrostfutz> | davean: I like the idea of successively filling in the holes, but this way I'd have to specify each set individually, right? |
| 16:20:37 | <Schrostfutz> | hololeap: Yes, attoparsec |
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| 16:21:20 | <Schrostfutz> | davean: My goal is to interpret the commands, so I'd like to represent their semantic in my datastructure. |
| 16:21:29 | <hololeap> | If I'm not mistaken, attoparsec isn't monadic and hence cannot have state passed, so you'll have to parse it as a list and then validate it afterwards, I think |
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| 16:22:12 | <davean> | uh, what? A) yes it is, B) what? How can you not pass state without a monad? Just pass a continuation like I was talking about above. |
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| 16:23:05 | <hololeap> | my understanding was that for a parser to change its behavior based on a previous "piece", it had to be monadic |
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| 16:23:35 | <davean> | Of course not, but also attoparsec is |
| 16:23:38 | <hololeap> | Parser a -> (a -> Parser b) -> Parser b |
| 16:23:48 | <davean> | I mean theres a monadic concept one might related here |
| 16:23:55 | <davean> | but it can break the laws and still do all that |
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| 16:24:22 | <davean> | and it defiantely doesn't have to be Haskell Monad |
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| 16:26:16 | <hololeap> | right, attoparsec just doesn't have a monad _transformer_ |
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| 16:26:57 | <hololeap> | but I'm also not seeing anything about carrying custom state in the docs |
| 16:27:01 | <davean> | a monad transformer is entirely different than Monad, and attoparsec is a Monad, but even if it wasn't that wouldn't be really relivent. |
| 16:27:15 | ← | alberto parts (~user@2001:b07:a96:75b9:be3e:73f7:1e58:8e12) () |
| 16:27:18 | <hololeap> | it is very relevant |
| 16:27:23 | <davean> | Haskell is a functional language |
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| 16:27:48 | <hololeap> | the sky is blue? |
| 16:28:10 | <zzz> | davean: depending on your definition of functional ;) |
| 16:28:18 | <davean> | I mean I just gave you the solution directly |
| 16:28:28 | <davean> | use a function as a first class object |
| 16:28:44 | <davean> | Ypi |
| 16:28:47 | <davean> | You're done |
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| 16:29:15 | <davean> | Most of attoparsec's haddocks demonstrate this |
| 16:29:35 | <davean> | I was talking about it to begin with |
| 16:29:38 | <davean> | just pass along operations |
| 16:29:51 | <davean> | But, also, if you want to use the tools you're thinking of, thats fine |
| 16:29:54 | <davean> | attoparsec is a monad |
| 16:30:00 | <hololeap> | right, you have to parse, then validate. with something like megaparsec, you could pass along a custom state and fail if you parsed the same type twice |
| 16:30:01 | <davean> | so you use the state transformer *over* that |
| 16:30:04 | <davean> | not the other way around |
| 16:30:13 | <davean> | semanticly it *can't* be the other way around |
| 16:30:20 | <davean> | no |
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| 16:30:27 | <davean> | You didn't listen |
| 16:30:31 | <davean> | I give up |
| 16:30:42 | <davean> | I specificly directly contradicted that |
| 16:30:52 | <hololeap> | I'm re-reading |
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| 16:36:22 | <hololeap> | ok, I think I get it now. error on my part |
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| 16:37:34 | <hololeap> | my first mistake was thinking that Parser from attoparsec was purely Applicative |
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| 16:40:46 | <davean> | Yah, Applicative would be a bit of a problem if that was the ONLY one you had, Applicative with a few things wouldn't though, even if that fell short of Monad (Selective for example) |
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| 16:41:50 | <hololeap> | I don't see how you could do this without a Monad, though, since it has to catalog what types it has seen so far |
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| 16:42:09 | <davean> | well, theres a paper on Selective. |
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| 16:42:35 | <davean> | Though in an entirely different direction from Selective - Monad has laws, those laws are not what matter for this oepration |
| 16:42:42 | <davean> | pure functions, treated first class, can do this |
| 16:42:49 | <davean> | you just don't get laws along with that |
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| 16:43:36 | <hololeap> | so you're saying something more powerful than an Applicative but less powerful than a Monad can do the job? |
| 16:44:01 | <hololeap> | I just wasn't aware of anything like that |
| 16:44:02 | <davean> | Yes |
| 16:44:26 | <hololeap> | but I'll look into Selective |
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| 16:46:57 | <davean> | Theres also a world of difference between Haskell Monad and Math Monad |
| 16:47:32 | <davean> | While one might argue the Math Monadness of some continuation passing implimentation, it certainly wouldn't be Haskell Monad. |
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| 16:52:32 | <hololeap> | I think of a Haskell Monad as a Kleisli arrow, since the Math monad just states that the two endofunctors _exist_ but doesn't say anything about a specific direction |
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| 16:55:54 | <testes> | it works ! |
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| 16:56:17 | <unyu> | Isn't the most important difference that Haskellers only work with Hask, which is morally a dumbed down Set? Whereas mathematicians work with functors between arbitrary categories. |
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| 16:56:54 | <davean> | anyway, back to the persons origional question, the anwer I was giving is that one can pass a function that carries the remaining validation, peels it off as it goes, and constructs the next parser based on what has been seen, and continues |
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| 16:58:11 | <hololeap> | unyu: a monad specifically talks about endofunctors, which are functors from category C to category C, so it doesn't matter if you just stay inside Hask |
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| 16:59:26 | <unyu> | hololeap: It matters a lot, because it means that you cannot get useful intuition from categories that do not like Hask at all. |
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| 16:59:52 | <unyu> | Also, a monad is a *single* endofunctor plus two natural transformations, such that three diagrams commute. (Sometimes, two of the diagrams are combined into one.) |
| 17:00:08 | <unyu> | The one involving two functors (not necessarily endofunctors) are adjunctions. |
| 17:00:54 | <hololeap> | right |
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| 17:01:12 | <hololeap> | two natural transformations involving an endofunctor |
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| 17:02:35 | <davean> | and the moral of this story is we must now shead a tear for Schrostfutz who didn't get their answer |
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| 17:03:18 | <hololeap> | they should have known that asking a simple question in #haskell would devolve into an argument about theory ;) |
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| 17:03:57 | <davean> | look, theres enough blame to go around, we shouldn't be proud of what happened! |
| 17:04:08 | <davean> | 4/5ths of this is on us |
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| 17:07:12 | <gonz_> | You joke, but it kind of sucks. |
| 17:09:25 | <gonz_> | Lots of people think that if they can't follow this kind of peripherally related nonsense discussion they probably shouldn't use Haskell. |
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| 17:17:29 | <maerwald> | Really? |
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| 17:17:59 | <davean> | maerwald: Well you understand it, right? You wouldn't just be pretending to be one of us! |
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| 17:18:43 | <maerwald> | oh well... er... yeah right... endofunctors! of course! |
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| 17:19:14 | <monochrom> | The question was unclear at the beginning. But later it became clear, and a simple "most parser libraries have a permute function for this" answer would have done nicely. |
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| 17:19:52 | <monochrom> | This is why I am skeptic about "enthusiam". |
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| 17:20:12 | <davean> | monochrom: right mate, glad you are a REAL haskeller. Horrors when we find someone isn't . . . |
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| 17:20:21 | <monochrom> | When people are enthusiastic about what they have know, they lose track of what other people really need to know. |
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| 17:20:40 | <davean> | yah no, it went seriously off track |
| 17:21:14 | <dminuoso> | So.. since Andrew Lee really started burning bridges.. if #haskell @freenode alive at all anymore? |
| 17:21:44 | <davean> | uh, sorta, but I parted an hour before it all went down |
| 17:21:49 | <boxscape> | it gets redirected to ##haskell now |
| 17:21:50 | <davean> | harmless recovered the channel |
| 17:21:54 | <davean> | and is trying |
| 17:21:59 | <davean> | poor poor harmless |
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| 17:22:07 | <dminuoso> | harmless is kicking again? |
| 17:23:27 | <davean> | https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/nl74hc/freenode_has_unilaterally_taken_over_haskell/gzhcoh3/ <-- I mean yah, he's putting the work in |
| 17:23:53 | <davean> | I value what he does, but I think ATM he's trying to bail the ocean out to keep the ocean afloat. |
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| 17:26:36 | <sm> | g'day all |
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| 17:26:44 | <maerwald> | sm: namaste |
| 17:26:58 | <sm> | "harmless" ? |
| 17:26:59 | <davean> | sm: Do you bear tidings from the lands of lee? |
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| 17:27:43 | <sm> | davean: I did last night. I had just sent evacuation warnings two minutes before the crackdown |
| 17:27:44 | <monochrom> | I learned "namaste" from the game Sid Meier's Starships. |
| 17:27:51 | <sm> | namaste maerwald |
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| 17:28:02 | <sm> | namaste everyone |
| 17:28:14 | <sm> | I am happy to be here in your peaceful kingdom |
| 17:28:21 | <davean> | sm: ah, you're not still hanging on? I figured you'd be the last off. |
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| 17:29:09 | <maerwald> | sm: how was your yoga class? ;p |
| 17:29:16 | <sm> | davean: no, once my channels were done I was out of there. I did think about keeping the nick, but figured the slightly reduced risk of harassment and the greatly simplified life was worth it |
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| 17:29:35 | <sm> | maerwald: haven't done it yet. Very bad, will get out on the grass shortly |
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| 17:30:17 | <sm> | how about you davean |
| 17:30:55 | BalinKingOfMoria | is now known as BalinKing |
| 17:31:20 | <davean> | I parted about an hour before the crackdown and am curious about whats going on over there but not enough to harase the only person I know putting the effort in for them or to reconnect |
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| 17:32:05 | <davean> | but frankly, I ahve way too much important, stressful, shit to deal with this week to give an actual damn about IRC drama |
| 17:32:08 | <sm> | ah. You can also get a sense of it by listening in to #libera and #freenode. |
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| 17:32:37 | <sm> | yes good to move on for sure |
| 17:32:43 | <davean> | Thankfully we have people like harmless who have taken it upon themselves to bail that ocean long enough to get the people who aren't enjoying drowning out |
| 17:32:55 | <davean> | This time its not me though |
| 17:33:09 | <sm> | are you talking about ed ? what is this new alias ? |
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| 17:33:16 | <davean> | Oh, no, its his ANCIENT one |
| 17:33:23 | <davean> | back from when I meet him doign game dev |
| 17:33:27 | <sm> | ahaa |
| 17:33:34 | <boxscape> | it's used here https://www.flipcode.com/harmless/ |
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| 17:33:45 | <davean> | Its just what I tihnk of him as and he hasn't asked me to try to use something different and I like it. |
| 17:33:53 | <davean> | uh, I guess thats an assholish thing of me to do |
| 17:33:56 | <davean> | welp |
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| 17:34:27 | <davean> | Sorry for the confusion |
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| 17:34:40 | <sm> | cool nick |
| 17:34:59 | <davean> | Yah I like it better *and* its the cell I have in my brain for it |
| 17:35:21 | <davean> | seeing as he doesn't seem to have disowned it, and I'm pretty sure he'd tell me if he had a problem with it, I'm happy to keep using it, but its not great for communicating with others. |
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| 17:35:36 | <davean> | OTOH, I don't put a ton of effort into filtering my thoughts on IRC |
| 17:35:38 | <sm> | just confusing for the rest of us :) |
| 17:35:50 | <davean> | So you get what I actually think as I think it typically |
| 17:36:17 | <tapas> | the archive is down :( |
| 17:36:22 | <davean> | I should probably put more effort in, but I'm REALLY not in the mood this week |
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| 18:02:17 | <hololeap> | bwaha... Crown Prince of Korea? what? |
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| 18:04:29 | <maerwald> | ALL of korea? |
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| 18:05:37 | <prite> | maerwald: Well, the title goes back to the long defunct Empire of Korea of the Joseon dynasty, so yeah, I guess. |
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| 18:09:42 | Server | sets mode +Cnt |
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| 18:09:48 | <geekosaur> | oh, there it is |
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| 18:11:08 | <maerwald> | so is freenode accessible from the northern parts of the Empire? |
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| 18:14:30 | <hamtidamti> | monochrom: same guy |
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| 18:14:47 | <monochrom> | This is surreal. |
| 18:14:49 | a1tern | is now known as altern |
| 18:15:13 | <maerwald> | pretty nice website |
| 18:15:39 | <hamtidamti> | Gets even better, check out PIA and the bitcoin investment funds |
| 18:15:53 | <maerwald> | right, where do I put my money |
| 18:16:13 | <meejah> | in the slot with the flames shooting out of it ... |
| 18:16:18 | <hamtidamti> | And shells.com, same clique |
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| 18:17:39 | <hamtidamti> | But hey congrats for #haskell to be here, i hope you find this to be a great home. |
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| 18:21:43 | <bontaq> | it almost has that haskell smell |
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| 18:32:53 | <edwardk> | bontaq: its a mix of au de haskell hackathon and new channel smell. we'll get the mix right eventually. the former should... resolve itself once working from home guidelines go back to closer to normal |
| 18:33:09 | <edwardk> | er eau de |
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| 18:34:35 | Server | sets mode +Cnt |
| 18:34:38 | <agumonke`> | some people like to think free floating and grow organic solutions |
| 18:34:41 | <edwardk> | working on some stuff, dealing with this nonsense, then packing tomorrow and driving 9 hours the next day. |
| 18:34:48 | <agumonke`> | some people prefer strict thinking framework |
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| 18:35:12 | <edwardk> | so i guess the drive is downtime, but still stress. |
| 18:35:26 | <maerwald> | agumonke`: yeah, but I think most of the programming community doesn't see it that way but is trying to figure out the "one right way", not understanding the psychological factors |
| 18:35:33 | <maerwald> | and focussing on technical aspects only |
| 18:35:36 | <agumonke`> | probably |
| 18:35:38 | <sm> | edwardk: best of luck. Just forget old #haskell if you need to, people will figure this out |
| 18:35:45 | <Vq> | edwardk: Take it easy |
| 18:35:45 | <[exa]> | so where do we purchase l'eau de haskell? |
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| 18:36:08 | <edwardk> | sm: its up, its sort of there for the matrix and tor users still trapped there. |
| 18:36:38 | <Vq> | edwardk: It looks pretty dead to me. |
| 18:36:47 | <sm> | I'm not sure having it up is better to be honest |
| 18:36:54 | <edwardk> | i'm ever so mildly amused that the topic for ##haskell on freenode is now '#haskell discussion', and that the obvious recursive channels are present. |
| 18:36:56 | <sm> | but you don't want to hear that.. quiet sm |
| 18:37:03 | <edwardk> | but that's basically mild stress relief. |
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| 18:38:15 | <Vq> | Really? Who set that topic? |
| 18:38:27 | <monochrom> | edwardk did :) |
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| 18:38:36 | <monochrom> | with ideas from people |
| 18:39:02 | <edwardk> | it also links to https://haskell.org/irc |
| 18:39:16 | <Vq> | ##haskell is about discussing the killed channel or the channel here? |
| 18:39:17 | <edwardk> | because any direct link to where channels are might provoke the eye of sauron |
| 18:39:20 | <monochrom> | OK, I am not sure edwardk did. I just have correlations suggesting entanglement. |
| 18:39:27 | <edwardk> | i did |
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| 18:39:46 | <sm> | Vq: there's a fair bit of meta discussion right now, it'll pass |
| 18:39:56 | <sm> | usually we discuss Haskell here :) |
| 18:39:59 | <monochrom> | The other thing edwardk did was creating DNS entry irc.cofreenode.net to alias to freenode. |
| 18:40:01 | <hpc> | edwardk: are we allowed to set the topic to "this is no longer the official channel and we can't tell you why"? |
| 18:40:08 | <edwardk> | there's ####haskell for '###haskell discussion' as well. but #####haskell is a redirect that internally has a haskell topic indicating no more than 3 levels of recursion is ever really required' |
| 18:40:08 | <Vq> | sm: ok, I'm still in #haskell and it's nice and quiet. |
| 18:40:24 | <monochrom> | The rest of us are supposed to take inspiration and register forgetfulnode etc. |
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| 18:40:33 | <edwardk> | hpc: no. that'll get us booted out leaving nobody there to fight spammers, til someone comes along without 'an agenda' or something. |
| 18:40:42 | <maerwald> | no more than 3 levels of recursion :D |
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| 18:40:50 | <maerwald> | should be enough for everyone |
| 18:41:10 | <hpc> | :( |
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| 18:41:22 | <monochrom> | Well the cycle could be seen as a joke on Haskell cyclic lazy list. |
| 18:41:27 | <edwardk> | Vq: if you disconnect you'll get redirected to ##haskell |
| 18:41:28 | <Vq> | edwardk: Won't that happen regardless when you keel over from trying to manage this? |
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| 18:41:38 | <edwardk> | Vq: well, yes. |
| 18:41:56 | <monochrom> | https://ro-che.info/ccc/9 |
| 18:42:09 | <edwardk> | thats why i've been taking out the stress by making stupid TANSTAAFN jokes and point irc.cofreenode.net as irc.freenode.net |
| 18:42:12 | <edwardk> | er pointing |
| 18:42:19 | <monochrom> | "you need to wake from pure dream to IO reality to observe the cycle" |
| 18:43:37 | <edwardk> | i'm not yet ready to rename Cofree to Lee, but it may wind up as shorthand in some of my code. |
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| 18:44:52 | <agumonke`> | i keep learning about monads, cps, streambased logical programming |
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| 18:45:14 | <agumonke`> | but I can't store trees in on disk for a small app |
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| 18:45:25 | <statusbot> | Status Bot enabled for #haskell |
| 18:45:32 | <agumonke`> | i blame haskell for all my mysery in life |
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| 18:49:18 | <[exa]> | agumonke`: who told you that you can't store trees on disk? |
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| 18:50:03 | <[exa]> | (disks are full of trees) |
| 18:50:17 | <monochrom> | That can go philosophical very quickly regarding whether you're storing a tree or an encoding of such. |
| 18:50:43 | <monochrom> | And feel free to contemplate "what is a disk?" too >:) |
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| 18:51:54 | <tput> | I store my trees on a magnetic annulus |
| 18:52:13 | <monochrom> | Indeed even from an engineering POV you still say "SS disk" but it's a square chip. |
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| 18:52:38 | <hpc> | [exa]: i don't know if you're mixing up disks and filesystems, or thinking of LVM and being cheeky :P |
| 18:52:43 | <monochrom> | on a rectangular strip of circuit board. |
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| 18:54:42 | <edwardk> | agumonke`: if you mmap the data from the disk you can even use lenses for manipulating this sort of thing. |
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| 18:55:47 | <edwardk> | monochrom: true, but that square chip almost certainly came out of a big disc-shaped wafer, no? |
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| 18:56:28 | <monochrom> | Oh hehe well played! |
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| 18:57:47 | <sbmsr> | y'all are a trip hahahaha |
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| 18:59:44 | <[exa]> | ok this transcended earlier than I expected |
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| 19:08:04 | <gianscarpe> | Hi haskellers |
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| 19:32:27 | <edwardk> | tomsmeding: =) |
| 19:32:35 | <tgy> | haskell newbie question: in this code https://github.com/jetho/Hclip/blob/master/System/Hclip.hs#L109 i don't understand where the `os` argument passed to the `resolveOS` function is coming from. to me it's undefined and i don't understand why this code compiles |
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| 19:34:13 | <wroathe> | tgy: https://github.com/jetho/Hclip/blob/master/System/Hclip.hs#L30 |
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| 19:35:09 | <tgy> | thx |
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| 20:07:48 | <maerwald> | https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/5331 needs more votes |
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| 20:19:30 | <maerwald> | weeder doesn't seem to detect dead dependencies here |
| 20:19:37 | <tapas> | maerwald: i'll read and give a decision |
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| 20:21:09 | <tapas> | this is entirely sensible. |
| 20:21:17 | <tapas> | go for it |
| 20:21:43 | <tapas> | make sure you rebase to master tho - a massive PR just went in |
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| 20:28:04 | <wz1000> | maerwald: why not -Wunused-packages? |
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| 20:29:48 | <maerwald> | wz1000: https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/5331#issuecomment-433693816 |
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| 20:31:23 | <tapas> | i'd argue GHC is the wrong place to detect unused packages, but fine |
| 20:31:36 | <tapas> | er, not unused, but duplicate packages |
| 20:31:58 | <maerwald> | and it doesn't detect indirectly unused packages as per the comment |
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| 20:34:53 | <wz1000> | maerwald: I think things have changed since that comment |
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| 20:35:29 | <wz1000> | At least the people working on the GHC driver rework seem to assume that --make will be the standard way cabal uses ghc |
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| 20:35:57 | <maerwald> | do the cabal devs think so too? :> |
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| 20:36:21 | <wz1000> | and there is a lot of work in progress making ghc move to fine grained hash based recompilation checking so that those bits of cabal can be removed all together |
| 20:36:30 | <wz1000> | I don't know, tapas might |
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| 20:37:01 | <wz1000> | But I think it will be great if recompilation checking at least can be handled entirely in GHC instead of an adhoc duplication of the logic in cabal |
| 20:37:11 | <tapas> | that's in a *very* greenfield stage |
| 20:37:31 | <tapas> | plus, if it's in the cards, there's no harm in having a year's worth of convenience that we can then rip out with little fuss |
| 20:37:40 | <wz1000> | there is also the work on -jsem and finer grained parrallelism in GHC |
| 20:37:57 | <wz1000> | I don't see how that will work outside of --make mode |
| 20:39:06 | <wz1000> | tapas: I mean, -Wunused-packages already works |
| 20:39:38 | <wz1000> | also, are there actually any concrete plans since hvrs comment to make cabal use one shot mode? |
| 20:39:40 | <tapas> | yeah, i would call this a lower prio feature |
| 20:40:08 | <maerwald> | wz1000: get hvr to comment :p |
| 20:40:24 | <tapas> | wz1000: unsure. Tbh, i don't have the best background on this history. HVR is gone and the history goes with him :) |
| 20:40:29 | <wz1000> | maerwald: I don't think --make is going away anytime soon. |
| 20:40:38 | <maerwald> | tapas: how gone is he really? |
| 20:41:46 | <tapas> | he hasn't been available for maintenance in a year+, and if he did come back, it'd be in an advisory capacity for several reasons |
| 20:43:23 | <maerwald> | I think I'm gonna say goodbye to libarchive... too many c2hs errors. The C parser is really not working well. |
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| 20:47:54 | <wz1000> | tapas: btw mpickering and dfordvm are making very good progress on the driver rework, you should probably have a chat with them |
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| 20:54:29 | <maerwald> | well, the output from -Wunused-packages is confusing... it doesn't say which target it belongs to |
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| 20:54:57 | <maerwald> | then I removed one dep, it failed to compile and then started to recommend more removals that resulted in more errors |
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| 20:59:15 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 20:59:46 | <monochrom> | I think all mechanical fix-dependencies algorithms have that trait. |
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| 21:11:49 | <maerwald> | sm: you remember this obscude strip ansi escape sequence thing you do in hledger? It doesn't work on windows :) |
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| 21:18:55 | <monochrom> | Would it help if the code page were 65001? |
| 21:19:16 | <monochrom> | err nevermind, it still wouldn't honour ansi code |
| 21:19:36 | <monochrom> | Would the new "Windows terminal" thing work? |
| 21:19:56 | <geekosaur> | stripping codes, not interpreting them I think |
| 21:20:04 | <monochrom> | Ah sorry. |
| 21:20:21 | <Vq> | File a bug-report to Microsoft? :o) |
| 21:20:32 | <maerwald> | putStrLn seems to do some magic that make escape codes work |
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| 21:21:19 | <geekosaur> | as opposed to? |
| 21:21:29 | <monochrom> | putStrLn is affected by locale is affected by code page so maybe I should resurface my 65001 suggestion :) |
| 21:21:32 | <maerwald> | whatever crap I'm using :p |
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| 21:22:17 | <geekosaur> | usually "make escape codes work"" means "not using Show instances" but could also conceivably mean text vs. binary mode on Windows |
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| 22:24:46 | <sm> | maerwald: what what?! lies! |
| 22:25:19 | <sm> | omg the cool relief of hoogle and haddocks after a week of IRC drama |
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| 22:25:56 | <sm> | it doesn't use codes like in https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hledger-lib-1.21/docs/src/Hledger.Utils.String.html#stripAnsi eh |
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| 22:35:57 | <lavaman> | /msg NickServ VERIFY REGISTER lavaman Ciym45gHmWY5m5ej |
| 22:36:32 | <geekosaur> | whoops |
| 22:36:40 | <mniip> | good thing that's not a password |
| 22:36:44 | <int-e> | <3 one-time codes |
| 22:36:49 | <geekosaur> | yeh |
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| 22:37:09 | <lavaman> | lol. paste added a space in front for some reason smh |
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| 22:39:10 | <maerwald> | gg |
| 22:39:55 | <maerwald> | sm: how you do escape codes on windows? it only works through hoops |
| 22:40:42 | <maerwald> | needs activation in registry or some obscure functions from Win32 that you only get with ghc-9.0.1 |
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| 23:41:40 | <sm> | maerwald: for a number of years now I have been waiting on ANSI color support on windows, IIRC the issue is still open so I just don't go there |
| 23:41:47 | <sm> | (GHC issue) |
| 23:42:12 | <sm> | well alright I'd better dig it up, how is it a GHC issue.. |
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| 23:45:48 | <sm> | it says here CMD doesn't support ANSI codes, use mintty |
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| 23:46:12 | <sm> | also "run the program in the same environment it was built in" |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-05-26.