Logs on 2021-05-29 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:24:40 | <srid[m]> | maerwald: nix on wsl |
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| 00:25:07 | <srid[m]> | n/m misread you meant linux vm on windows |
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| 01:55:54 | <statusbot> | Maintenance update: We're going to be taking down hackage for migration very soon. -- http://status.haskell.org/pages/maintenance/537c07b0cf1fad5830000093/60aad637d7fc95052eff0e74 |
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| 02:32:07 | <Baby_Bird> | first they came for the #liberia ns and we said nothing, then they came for #israel and we said nothing, they even went after chatters with #autism. they dont want us to #stopasianhate |
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| 02:48:52 | <ukari> | is there some function with signature looks like `(a -> b) -> f a -> (f a, f b)` ? |
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| 02:49:15 | <Axman6> | I doubt it, but it's easy to write |
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| 02:51:44 | <ukari> | I think `join . ((,) .) . fmap :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> (f b, f a)` is not clear enough so I wonder if there has been a customary one |
| 02:51:58 | <Axman6> | don't do it pointfree |
| 02:52:09 | <ukari> | well |
| 02:52:17 | <Axman6> | the definition looks almost exactly the same as the type signature |
| 02:52:34 | <Axman6> | :t \f fa -> (fa, f <$> fa) |
| 02:52:35 | <lambdabot> | Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> (f a, f b) |
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| 02:53:41 | <ukari> | nice |
| 02:56:02 | <ukari> | I wanna write a help function for this no-pointfree function, maybe it could be named as consfmap |
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| 02:58:50 | <Axman6> | andFmap :: Functor f => f a -> (a -> b) -> (f a, f b); andFmap fa f = (fa, f <$> fa) -- now you can write fa `andFmap` f |
| 02:59:34 | <ukari> | thanks you, Axman6 |
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| 03:04:23 | <Axman6> | you could also give it an operator name, something like (<+$>) |
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| 03:40:20 | <statusbot> | Maintenance update: Hackage Migration done! Enjoy the new GSOC features (badges, better build logs, better candidate workflows) -- http://status.haskell.org/pages/maintenance/537c07b0cf1fad5830000093/60aad637d7fc95052eff0e74 |
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| 03:41:25 | <arahael> | What's the Go-to library if one wants to upload something to S3 in AWS? Just a bit wary of the 'official' libraries as they're generally huge and clunky. |
| 03:43:14 | <arahael> | A quick google suggests I have two options at least for the 'big' libraries - aws-sdk, and amazonka. |
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| 03:47:28 | <arahael> | Amazonka looks reasonable, actually - any opinions here? |
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| 03:51:11 | <arahael> | And is apparently split up in the various services - even better. |
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| 04:00:35 | <wroathe> | arahael: Even if there are alternatives, I'd generally prefer the official library as the organization usually provides some form of long-term support |
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| 04:01:05 | <wroathe> | arahael: Especially if the library is exists only to access services they provide |
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| 04:03:24 | <arahael> | wroathe: Yeah, they don't really have an *official* library though - aws-sdk looks like it follows the java sdk, and amazonka looks like it follows the python sdk, in both cases for the code generation. |
| 04:04:13 | <arahael> | Hmm, and hte hackage home page for aws-sdk is a broken link. Not good. |
| 04:04:17 | <wroathe> | arahael: Ah, then this advice doesn't apply. I misinterpreted the above as you saying one of those was the official library. |
| 04:04:55 | <arahael> | wroathe: Yeah, I was slightly misleading in my question in retrospect. |
| 04:05:25 | <wroathe> | arahael: I was thinking "Amazon provides an official Haskell client!? It's a brave new world!" |
| 04:05:35 | <wroathe> | arahael: Way to take me on an emotional rollercoaster. |
| 04:05:41 | <arahael> | Haha. :( |
| 04:07:28 | <ubikium> | arahael: amazonka is great. The lens interface is very consistent and clean. |
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| 04:07:52 | <arahael> | ubikium: Nice. Should I be concerned about the various open tickets against S3, or is it all generally workaroundable? |
| 04:08:01 | <ubikium> | And also from the README |
| 04:08:01 | <ubikium> | > Parts of the code contained in this repository are auto-generated and automatically kept up to date with Amazon's latest service APIs. |
| 04:08:03 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:7: error: parse error on input ‘of’ |
| 04:08:29 | <arahael> | ubikium: Yeah, except those latest service API's seem to be buggy, too! |
| 04:08:55 | <arahael> | As an example: https://github.com/brendanhay/amazonka/issues/630 |
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| 04:11:01 | <ubikium> | arahael: I haven't met any problems myself, but I'm using it in a different region and only the basic commands |
| 04:11:20 | <arahael> | ubikium: That's good. I think S3 has only one region, though. |
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| 04:11:56 | <arahael> | Ah, so of course, I could 'just' use a different region and work around it if that was the case and it's affecting a specific region. |
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| 04:17:29 | <fosskers> | Alright, made it to libera.chat |
| 04:18:01 | <hololeap> | % class MyClass r a | r -> a, a -> r ; class MyClass r a => NewClass r -- no `a' mentioned on RHS... is this possible? |
| 04:18:01 | <yahb> | hololeap: ; <interactive>:102:54: error: Not in scope: type variable `a' |
| 04:18:24 | <arahael> | fosskers: What took so long? ;) |
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| 04:19:03 | <fosskers> | Given everything that's happened I figured it was a good idea to come claim my username, heh |
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| 04:21:02 | <arahael> | Welcome :) |
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| 04:23:19 | <fosskers> | Thanks! |
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| 04:53:58 | <voldial> | is demo2.hs running 5+ processes in the example? http://hackage.haskell.org/package/concurrent-output how does the terminal writing process know how to reflow in the regions each process is allocated? or is it just one-process-per row? I tried but haskell is like greek AND lisp |
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| 04:57:42 | <c_wraith> | voldial: "withConsoleRegion ConsoleLine" seems like a key part of that |
| 04:58:09 | <c_wraith> | voldial: That suggests that each thread (not process) is reserving a line in the console |
| 04:59:51 | <c_wraith> | voldial: interestingly, I see nothing there that suggests the lines will come out the same order each time. It's likely that changes from run to run. |
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| 05:00:11 | <voldial> | c_wraith: indeed. now that I read the project that depends on this... it seems that "sub regions" are just ranges on that single line (if I understand the demo) http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/a_tiling_region_manager_for_the_console/ |
| 05:01:00 | <voldial> | either way. I like it. |
| 05:01:05 | <c_wraith> | I'm sure it has the ability to create regions that aren't single lines, too |
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| 05:01:59 | <voldial> | c_wraith: well, there's where I am confused, sure, multiple complete lines, that's easy, but... real arb areas? how would the writing process deal with wrapping? |
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| 05:03:33 | <voldial> | iterate through the rest of the available char locations, checking if that process owns it? |
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| 05:04:50 | <c_wraith> | Ok, this is a bit hard to follow, as it appears the API has been updated since that animation was generated. |
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| 05:05:31 | <c_wraith> | But I see concurrent-output depends on ansi-terminal, which allows access to control codes |
| 05:05:47 | voldial | follows... |
| 05:06:04 | <c_wraith> | As long as each thread has exclusive access to the screen when doing output, it can use ANSI control codes to manipulate the cursor position |
| 05:06:16 | <c_wraith> | So it just needs a shared lock to make sure things don't stomp on each other |
| 05:06:28 | <c_wraith> | Which I'm sure it has |
| 05:06:55 | <voldial> | c_wraith: each thread being one of the concurrent chared terminal writers? |
| 05:07:03 | <voldial> | chared->shared |
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| 05:07:16 | <c_wraith> | yes |
| 05:07:53 | <voldial> | but those dont know the geometry they are writing to... therefore cant emit the correct control codes to move the cursor to a space they control.... |
| 05:08:11 | <voldial> | how the main process know where to move the cursor? |
| 05:08:17 | <c_wraith> | They certainly could know the screen geometry |
| 05:08:25 | <voldial> | mh. |
| 05:08:38 | <c_wraith> | there's that top-level call to displayConsoleRegions there |
| 05:08:44 | <voldial> | but... they could step on eachother... |
| 05:09:05 | <c_wraith> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/concurrent-output-1.10.12/docs/System-Console-Regions.html#v:displayConsoleRegions |
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| 05:09:42 | <c_wraith> | looks to me like that establishes global locks and manages layout stuff. I don't like that design particularly, but it can be done |
| 05:10:47 | voldial | chews.... |
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| 05:49:05 | <sclv> | ch-ch-check it out everyone! with new hackage and builder redeploy we run tests and report on their results, and also give code coverage numbers! https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aern2-mp |
| 05:49:31 | <sclv> | also you can finally request rebuilds from the maintainers corner and they actually work |
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| 05:58:59 | <Guest9> | is there any short cut for "run current file" in vscode? |
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| 07:50:11 | <hololeap> | % class MyClass r a | r -> a, a -> r ; class MyClass r a => NewClass r |
| 07:50:11 | <yahb> | hololeap: ; <interactive>:103:54: error: Not in scope: type variable `a' |
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| 07:51:09 | <hololeap> | since there is a double functional dependency between `r' and `a', I would think that `a' wouldn't have to be mentioned on the RHS of NewClass |
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| 07:51:42 | <hololeap> | because NewClass doesn't use it |
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| 10:31:52 | <juri_> | is there a noninfinite similar to nonempty? |
| 10:38:34 | <Hecate> | juri_: why? :) |
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| 10:39:02 | <rahguzar> | juri_ , what do you need it for? Data structures from `condtainers` and `Vector` are finite and there are length indexed data structures too |
| 10:39:15 | <juri_> | I'm trying to apply stan to my code, and there are constructs i have that i know will not be empty, AND cannot be infinite. |
| 10:39:35 | <juri_> | I figgured it'd be nice to add this to the types. |
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| 10:40:39 | <juri_> | maybe i should just wait for linear types to be more of a thing. |
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| 10:55:18 | <siraben> | Constraining finite data types, heh |
| 10:55:22 | <siraben> | to finite data types* |
| 10:55:50 | <siraben> | juri_: if the datatype is strict, then it cannot be infinite (as constructing an finite datatype will diverge) |
| 10:57:04 | <siraben> | oops I mean constructing an infinite datatype will diverge |
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| 11:28:23 | <hjulle[m]> | Does anyone know how to tell cabal to not try to build (the dependencies of) some of the packages mentioned in a `cabal.project` file? (other than removing them from the `cabal.project` file) |
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| 11:31:24 | <hjulle[m]> | I get `cabal: Could not resolve dependencies:` because of a different package than the one I am currently trying to build. My guess is that the problem that cabal requires all the versions inside a project to be compatible, so it refuses to build anything if it can't figure out a plan for everything? |
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| 11:49:33 | <juri_> | grr. so, i can chose slists, which are safe, or nonempty, which is not safe... and there is no nonempty slist. |
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| 11:55:49 | <Axman6> | juri_: can you not use vectors? |
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| 11:57:55 | <rahguzar> | juri_ if you want something builtin use a tuple of an element and a strict list. That gives non-empty strict list and all the instances. Or you can define the `NonEmpty` data structure yourself and most of the instances you need can probably be derived using extensions |
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| 11:58:52 | <wz1000> | juri_: which is this unsafe slist? |
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| 11:59:46 | <Axman6> | You could pretty easily write a length bounded, non-empty list though - data SList n a where SNil :: a -> SNil ('S n) a; SCons :: a -> SList n a -> SList ('S n); a value of type SList n a has at most n elements in it but can have fewer |
| 12:00:27 | <juri_> | I'm going to read on vectors for a bit. |
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| 12:02:55 | <Axman6> | As assuminbg you can define a constrasint of Finite n, you can have foo :: Finite n => Slist n a -> Int |
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| 12:03:21 | <rahguzar> | If the length is statically known there are already packages that track the length in type like `vector-sized` |
| 12:03:28 | <juri_> | Axman6: I'm trying to make Stan happy with me.. which leads me in directions that are not very happy in haskell. |
| 12:03:36 | <Axman6> | @ |
| 12:03:49 | <Axman6> | @hackage stan |
| 12:03:49 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/stan |
| 12:05:07 | <juri_> | specifically, i'm using length in my test suite, to ensure what comes into a transform has the same count of items as what comes out... and stan warns you if you use length, pointing you to slist.. |
| 12:05:44 | <Axman6> | I've never used stan, so I can;t really help you there |
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| 12:06:37 | <juri_> | maybe i've been watching too many idris2 videos. i want to specify a length at the type level, which haskell has.. fun with. |
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| 12:06:59 | <Axman6> | Have you looked at liquid haskell? |
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| 12:08:21 | <rahguzar> | @hackage vector-sized |
| 12:08:21 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-sized |
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| 12:09:12 | <juri_> | Axman6: I'll add that to my reading list. |
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| 12:10:05 | <rahguzar> | juri_ data structures tagged with type level length are somewhat annoying but I have used `vector-sized` and it is workable |
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| 12:38:36 | <xerox> | does anyone know if there are info about this year's icfpc? https://www.icfpconference.org/contest.html |
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| 13:31:14 | <maerwald> | is the CLC still active? |
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| 13:57:56 | <altern> | If anyone could look at https://stackoverflow.com/questions/67752191/unions-data-map-singletons-inside-an-io , I would be grateful |
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| 14:06:34 | <rahguzar> | @altern there is `sequence` you can use to go from `[IO a]` to `IO [a]` |
| 14:06:34 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 14:07:14 | <rahguzar> | @type sequence |
| 14:07:15 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a) |
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| 14:07:35 | <cdsmith> | @type mapM |
| 14:07:36 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m (t b) |
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| 14:07:52 | <cdsmith> | That works for you as well |
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| 14:18:27 | <trueboxguy> | sequenceA fans entering chat like |
| 14:18:27 | ikex | is now known as \n |
| 14:18:33 | \n | is now known as ikex |
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| 15:53:33 | <xerox> | maerwald: what's the CLC? |
| 15:53:54 | <geekosaur> | core libraries committee, I think |
| 15:54:01 | <xerox> | ah |
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| 15:56:53 | <maerwald> | They haven't replied to my emails lately and I'm getting a little "worried" |
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| 15:59:05 | <sclv> | afaik theyre around just busy as individuals |
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| 16:02:22 | <maerwald> | well... I'm gonna be blunt: if you're too busy to fullfill the role as a CLC member, it's time to ask for help |
| 16:03:03 | <maerwald> | it's a critical role |
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| 16:05:08 | <maerwald> | (with "not replied" I'm talking about 1month+) |
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| 16:17:28 | <trueboxguy> | hmm. I've seen the people in the CLC around here |
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| 17:20:43 | <rahguzar> | @type traverse @t (@(->) a) |
| 17:20:45 | <lambdabot> | error: parse error on input ‘@’ |
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| 17:22:07 | <rahguzar> | Is there a way to get ghci to use a type variable in type applications. It seems like I can only pass `_` |
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| 17:22:48 | <rahguzar> | Otherwise it complains of out of scope type variables |
| 17:23:28 | <c_wraith> | what would you do with a free type variable in a type application? |
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| 17:24:22 | <rahguzar> | Mostly I just want to know the type that results |
| 17:24:54 | <rahguzar> | Like this for example `traverse @t (@(->) a)` |
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| 17:25:56 | <rahguzar> | But `:t` doesn't work with that |
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| 17:26:52 | <c_wraith> | What is unsatisfying about the output of :t traverse @_ @((->) _) ? |
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| 17:28:25 | <rahguzar> | Just that I have to remember `_1` is a `Traversable` while `t` would make it easier. It is minor thing |
| 17:28:38 | <rahguzar> | I was wondering if there is a way |
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| 17:29:54 | <c_wraith> | you won't like it, but there is. :P |
| 17:30:16 | <rahguzar> | Ok! |
| 17:30:20 | <c_wraith> | enabled ScopedTypeVariables and PartialTypeSignatures |
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| 17:30:53 | <c_wraith> | then suppress the partial-type-signatures warning |
| 17:31:25 | <c_wraith> | Then you can do something like :t let f :: forall t a. (_) => _ ; f = traverse @t @((->) a) in f |
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| 17:32:37 | <ecm> | What is the best resource for a beginner that has read "Learn you a haskell" ? |
| 17:32:48 | <rahguzar> | That is lot of work but it can come in handy if there are a few type variables in some expression |
| 17:32:55 | <rahguzar> | @c_ |
| 17:32:55 | <lambdabot> | Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? . |
| 17:33:03 | <rahguzar> | c_wraith thanks! |
| 17:33:12 | <ecm> | I want to learn how to do stack stuff and about advanced concepts like monads, types and stuff |
| 17:33:12 | <c_wraith> | you're welcome |
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| 18:00:53 | <Bartosz> | I'm trying to understand the idea of tagless final encoding. They always say that tagless can be done without GADTs. So I assume that using GADTs solves the problem too. The functions they define are just GADT constructors, aren't they? |
| 18:00:54 | <shiraeeshi> | ecm: "The book of monads" by Alejandro Serrano Mena |
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| 18:01:24 | <geekosaur> | ecm left |
| 18:01:38 | <shiraeeshi> | oh, ok |
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| 18:03:17 | <shiraeeshi> | Bartosz: "The functions they define are just GADT constructors, aren't they?" - who are "they"? |
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| 18:03:36 | <Bartosz> | Kiselyov et al |
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| 18:06:25 | <Bartosz> | edwardk : is that right? |
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| 18:07:19 | <siraben> | Bartosz: tagless final encoding has better compositional properties |
| 18:07:37 | <siraben> | in the paper there's an example of MulSYM and ExpSYM |
| 18:07:46 | <siraben> | you can combine them to something like, x = add (lit 3) (mul (lit 3) (lit 5)) |
| 18:08:02 | <siraben> | then the typeclass constraint on x would be, (ExpSYM a, MulSYM a) => a |
| 18:08:13 | <siraben> | notice that this would not typecheck with GADTs |
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| 18:08:16 | <Bartosz> | But can you do the same with GADT? |
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| 18:09:03 | <siraben> | Let's say you did, data ExpSYM a where Add :: ExpSYM Int → ExpSYM Int → ExpSYM Int |
| 18:09:08 | <Bartosz> | Aren't these just smart constructors? |
| 18:09:14 | <siraben> | and Lit :: Int → ExpSYM Int |
| 18:09:34 | <siraben> | data MulSYM a where Mul :: MulSYM Int → MulSYM Int → MulSYM Int |
| 18:09:40 | <siraben> | Add (Lit 3) (Mul (Lit 3) (Lit 5)) would not typecheck |
| 18:10:27 | <siraben> | So, while it's basically equivalent with GADTs for a single typeclass, the ability to freely combine things in tagless-final encoding is one of the advantages |
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| 18:11:56 | <Bartosz> | I was just reading this blog post, where the guy points out that tagless final has nothing to do with typeclasses. https://www.foxhound.systems/blog/final-tagless/ |
| 18:12:39 | <Bartosz> | Ben Levy wrote it |
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| 18:13:20 | <siraben> | Kiselyov expresses it through typeclasses, I'm only familiar with his presentation of GADTs |
| 18:13:24 | <siraben> | Oops I mean, presentation of tagless-final |
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| 18:13:58 | <cdsmith> | So basically we're just saying that you're using the type class (or equivalent mechanism) to postpone the choice of model, meaning you can define your x = add (lit 3) (mul (lit 3) (lit 5)) in one place, and maybe instantiate the type with a GADT in one place, or a different model somewhere else? |
| 18:14:12 | <siraben> | Bartosz: I only see a single sort going on in that blog post; SqlExpr |
| 18:15:02 | <siraben> | In the little example I gave, there's two different kinds of expressions |
| 18:15:53 | <cdsmith> | Sure, but eventually, a has to be SOMETHING! |
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| 18:16:39 | <cdsmith> | Sorry, I think I was jumping in and confusing things. |
| 18:16:44 | <siraben> | Chris Smith: exactly, "choice of model" is a more mathematical way to put it |
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| 18:18:05 | <Bartosz> | It seems to me that "tagless" and "final" are specific terms. It so happens that tagless final allows the use of typeclasses to postpone the interpretation. |
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| 18:18:41 | <siraben> | it's like in mathematical logic, you can add more and more terms and equations for your logical theory, which possibly constrains the number of models that satisfy that theory |
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| 18:21:16 | <Bartosz> | I'm just wondering if the use of GADTs is considered "tagging" the result. My understanding is that GADT tags are only used by the typechecker. |
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| 18:23:52 | <shiraeeshi> | siraben: why did you create GADTs like that? How about something like this (it's not even a GADT, just a regular data): |
| 18:23:55 | <shiraeeshi> | data Exp where Add {a :: Exp, b :: Exp}; Mult {a :: Exp, b :: Exp} |
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| 18:24:08 | <siraben> | the point is that you can extend it post-hoc |
| 18:24:12 | <siraben> | without recompiling old code |
| 18:24:18 | <siraben> | the tagless-final paper talks about this |
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| 18:24:46 | <siraben> | if you added a new case to Exp, then you'd have to go along everywhere you destructed an Exp and handle the new case |
| 18:25:02 | <siraben> | with this, the old code that uses values of type (ExpSYM a) => a stay as such |
| 18:25:08 | <siraben> | with tagless-final* |
| 18:25:16 | <Bartosz> | You either need a parameterized data type or a GADT to handle Int and Bool expressions |
| 18:25:23 | <siraben> | and new code can freely combine it with MulSYM |
| 18:25:35 | <siraben> | Right, another alternative is to use parametrization over a functor, say |
| 18:25:52 | <siraben> | data Exp f a where Add :: Exp (f Int) → Exp (f Int) |
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| 18:26:00 | <siraben> | Add :: Exp (f Int) → Exp (f Int) → Exp (f Int) |
| 18:26:07 | <siraben> | no idea if it will work, just a thought |
| 18:26:50 | <siraben> | Bartosz: the paper also talks about disadvantages of tagless-final, including things like deforestation and fusion are not so well studied (and I believe GHC is not going to do such things, so you'll incur quite a bit of penalty if you finally encode everything) |
| 18:27:25 | <Bartosz> | I think the idea is that you can have an "extensible GADT" if you define a parameterized data type and separately a bunch of smart constructors. If you combine these smart constructors into a GADT, you lose extensibility. |
| 18:27:44 | <siraben> | here's a blog post I wrote that uses tagless final to express an AST for a language that can be re-interpreted under different contexts (models) https://siraben.github.io/2020/02/26/translating_cl.html |
| 18:28:07 | <siraben> | Bartosz: right, another one is allowing reinterpretation of an AST just by type hints |
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| 18:28:21 | <siraben> | if you have instance ExpSYM Int, then eval just becomes id @Int |
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| 18:30:17 | <Bartosz> | Another question: what's the meaning of initial and final for these EDSLs? What is it that's initial or final? |
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| 18:30:53 | <dminuoso> | http://okmij.org/ftp/tagless-final/course/lecture.pdf covers these terms right in the introduction |
| 18:31:14 | <siraben> | Yep, that's the paper |
| 18:31:21 | <siraben> | Bartosz: I highly suggest that pdf link, it's very readable |
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| 18:32:01 | <Bartosz> | Thanks. I think I've seen it before, but already forgot. |
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| 18:32:32 | <dminuoso> | Bartosz: Also "Finally tagless, partially evaluated: Tagless staged interpreters for simpler typed language" by Carette, Kiselyov and Shan. |
| 18:32:55 | <dminuoso> | Which is the original paper I think |
| 18:33:01 | <Bartosz> | Yes, I've seen it. |
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| 18:33:28 | <Bartosz> | Unfortunatley it's in ML |
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| 18:35:33 | <Bartosz> | I guess the key is that a data constructor is a function, but a function is not necessarily a data constructor. |
| 18:35:37 | <dminuoso> | Bartosz: Reading some other parts, I think the word "final" is very informal and carries no exact notion. A relationship to "initial" from category theory is possible. |
| 18:36:01 | <dminuoso> | But Oleg seems to not elaborate on it very much |
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| 18:37:36 | <Bartosz> | It could be that initial means the language you're embedding; and final, the language you're embedding it into (like Haskell, in this case, or ML). |
| 18:37:56 | <dminuoso> | Well in the original paper Oleg says: |
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| 18:38:04 | <dminuoso> | (Or presumably Oleg does) |
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| 18:38:32 | <dminuoso> | "We call this approach final (in contrast to initial), because we represent each object term not by its abstract syntax but by its denotation in a semantic algebra." |
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| 18:51:04 | <Bartosz> | I think I see it. It's like defining a list: you can define it as a recursive data type, or you can say it's a higher order function (fold) that maps an algebra to a value. |
| 18:51:23 | <dminuoso> | I guess |
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| 18:52:08 | ski | . o O ( `mu r. ..r.. = forall r. (..r.. -> r) -> r' ) |
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| 18:52:41 | <Bartosz> | He even compares interpreting to folding |
| 18:53:04 | <Bartosz> | Yes, exactly |
| 18:54:23 | <Bartosz> | Something called Bohm Baraducci representation? |
| 18:55:24 | <shachaf> | You can define data types as their folds, or codata types (I guess people would say) as their unfolds. |
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| 18:57:04 | ski | . o O ( `nu s. ..s.. = exists s. (s,s -> ..s..)' ) |
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| 18:58:40 | <Rembane> | The eager pattern matching parts of my brain wants to talk about recursion schemes and mtl, do they fit into these final tagless encodings in some way? |
| 18:59:10 | <Bartosz> | data Mu f = Mu (forall a. Algebra f a -> a) |
| 18:59:10 | <dminuoso> | Rembane: mtl-style is tagless final encoding. :) |
| 19:00:03 | <Rembane> | dminuoso: Sweet! :) |
| 19:00:08 | <monochrom> | Classes like MonadState are examples. |
| 19:03:10 | <Bartosz> | @ski : data Nu f = forall a. Nu (a -> f a, a) |
| 19:03:10 | <lambdabot> | Maybe you meant: wiki src ask |
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| 19:06:16 | <Bartosz> | It's called Church/B ̈ohm/Berarducci encoding |
| 19:08:07 | <Bartosz> | Oleg says: the non-extensible final encoding is equivalent to the Church/B ̈ohm/Berarducci encoding of the data type representing the embedded language |
| 19:09:14 | <Bartosz> | But tagless final is more general, because it holds for higher-order typed languages. |
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| 19:23:55 | <dminuoso> | glguy: By the way, you asked about any rough edges with config-schema. One thing that has been bothering me slightly, is that I have much less ability to attach information for documentation purposes similarly to how I can mappend into an option in optparse-applicative |
| 19:26:13 | <dminuoso> | For example, I'd like to do something like `describe "Launch a nuclear missile, stopping the peace" (atomSpec "launchMissile" $> CmdLaunchMissile) <!> describe "Go to sleep" (atomSpec "sleep" $> CmdSleep)` to describe what values of an enum could do |
| 19:27:45 | <shiraeeshi> | "We call this approach final (in contrast to initial), because we represent each object term not by its abstract syntax but by its denotation in a semantic algebra." |
| 19:27:51 | <shiraeeshi> | what's final about that? |
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| 19:28:48 | <shiraeeshi> | I think I get it: it's just a silly wordplay |
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| 19:35:44 | <zebrag> | When we use recursive data types, for that purpose we need our objects to have some set-like properties. Specifically we can speak of the elements because we have an initial object. |
| 19:36:08 | <zebrag> | Hence initial. |
| 19:36:19 | <zebrag> | Just saying. |
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| 19:36:49 | <zebrag> | I don't even know what paper the quote is from. |
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| 19:39:19 | <glguy> | dminuoso, Is namedSpec related? |
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| 19:40:52 | <glguy> | dminuoso, namedSpec "Launch a missle" (atomSpec "launch" <!> atomSpec "sleep")) |
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| 19:41:21 | <xerox> | is MVar the correct abstraction to send information one-way only between threads? |
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| 19:42:57 | <xerox> | I was trying to find something akin a write-only/read-only pair of "channel" ends to avoid messing things up by accident |
| 19:43:02 | <monochrom> | Yes if its blocking behaviour is what you want. |
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| 19:44:22 | <dminuoso> | glguy: This is only useful for refactoring them out, but not for attaching a description string to something. |
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| 19:45:27 | <dminuoso> | In particular to say individual enum values |
| 19:45:29 | <xerox> | the setup is easy to imagine I guess, just like a chess program that talks to a chess engine, on one side there's a UI thread, on the other the one that talks to the engine |
| 19:46:00 | <xerox> | the only blocking I want is a thread waiting on the game engine responses, use them to update the world, and trigger a redraw |
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| 19:46:16 | <glguy> | dminuoso, customSpec can do extra text on things, but it's not quite in the right place |
| 19:46:18 | <dminuoso> | glguy: The dimension to add a description string seems to only exist for sections in a SectionsSpec |
| 19:46:35 | <glguy> | generateDocs ( namedSpec "Launch a missle" (customSpec "extra text" (atomSpec "launch") Right <!> atomSpec "sleep")) -- Launch a missle -- extra text `launch` or `sleep` |
| 19:46:37 | <xerox> | all the while the ui should be able to spam the engine with requests |
| 19:46:55 | <glguy> | dminuoso, If you have a design in mind I'm open to ideas |
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| 19:48:27 | <monochrom> | MVar blocks the sender when full. And it's very easy to be full, just one unread item does it. This may or may not let you spam, depending on how impatiently you mean by "spam". |
| 19:49:27 | <dminuoso> | glguy: Well adding a Text field to each PrimValueSpec other than SectionsSpec seems trivial enough. The main issue is rather how to render this |
| 19:49:29 | <ski> | zebrag : "Specifically we can speak of the elements because we have an initial object." -- huh ? .. did you mean "final"/"terminal" ? |
| 19:50:12 | <dminuoso> | Ill give it some thought and get back to you |
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| 19:53:19 | <zebrag> | ski: isn't it the second time at least that I make huge mistakes of that sort? |
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| 19:55:01 | <xerox> | monochrom: I'm temped to switch to TChans to avoid the possiblility of the UI getting stuck and be explicit as to who reads and who writes, since the channels are one-way |
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| 19:57:22 | <ski> | zebrag, dunno |
| 19:58:02 | <dminuoso> | xerox: A TQueue might be interesting too, since it features flushTQueue |
| 19:58:19 | <dminuoso> | That way whenever you are ready, you can flush the entire buffer of commands - and then decide what to do with it |
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| 19:58:36 | <dminuoso> | Gives you the option to perhaps throw some away, merge others |
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| 21:16:49 | <hololeap> | I just want to get a quick poll, when writing code, do you stay strictly below the 80 char limit on lines? |
| 21:17:25 | <geekosaur> | for code intended for distribution, yes. for my own stuff, not necessarily |
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| 21:19:14 | <dminuoso> | Nope. My measure is half a screen on my 27" WQHD screen with the font size Im comfortable with. :p |
| 21:19:31 | <dminuoso> | Since that's usually the size of my emacs |
| 21:19:58 | <Bartosz> | zebrag : you mean terminal object. |
| 21:20:00 | <davean> | hololeap: absolutely not |
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| 21:20:06 | <yushyin> | 80 is more of a soft limit to me, and 120 a hard limit. |
| 21:20:16 | <boxscape> | ^ |
| 21:20:30 | <hololeap> | interesting. it seems kind of antiquated, but I still get kinda OCD about it for no real reason. I'm thinking about moving my word wrap marker to something higher |
| 21:20:33 | <Rembane> | I use what Brittany uses |
| 21:20:47 | <hololeap> | 80 just seems kind of rediculous at times |
| 21:21:00 | <davean> | 80 char limits is a joke IMO |
| 21:21:02 | <dminuoso> | hololeap: My code frequently looks like cabal, with long identifiers often. |
| 21:21:03 | <boxscape> | for comments I do 79 without exceptions |
| 21:21:05 | <ski> | hololeap : yes. and if i'm using pages, i often try to keep them at most sixtysix lines |
| 21:21:13 | <dminuoso> | 80 characters would be limiting |
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| 21:21:38 | <boxscape> | (well, one exception: having a URL in a comment that's > 79 characters) |
| 21:21:49 | <ski> | (yes) |
| 21:23:02 | <boxscape> | is 66 lines a widely accepted limit as well? |
| 21:23:08 | <superstar64> | hololeap, i don't use a limit |
| 21:23:19 | <geekosaur> | I don't see much use of pages as such any more |
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| 21:23:33 | <geekosaur> | they kinda went away when line printers did |
| 21:23:39 | <superstar64> | i just let my text editor do line wrapping when they get too big |
| 21:24:24 | <[exa]> | hololeap: I'm doing the same purposefully, reading and navigating long code lines is super bad |
| 21:24:29 | <ski> | boxscape : "Pagination" section of Riastradh's <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt> mentions it |
| 21:24:39 | <boxscape> | I see, thanks |
| 21:24:42 | <dminuoso> | geekosaur: what is `pages`? |
| 21:25:15 | <ski> | the subdivisions of a file by form feeds |
| 21:25:25 | <dminuoso> | Mmm |
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| 21:26:31 | <Athas> | Any suggestions for tweaking the GHC GC for throughput? I don't care about latency. Currently I have '-A4m -qg1 -N', which seems to work OK. Actually surprised that parallel GC is now a (small) improvement; it didn't use to be. |
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| 21:28:01 | <[exa]> | hololeap: btw one reason for breaking long stuff is that you can more easily see the structure and (non-)complexity of the expression if it's easy to see the starts of sub-expressions |
| 21:28:29 | <[exa]> | wow ^L is new |
| 21:28:42 | <geekosaur> | not for some of us :) |
| 21:28:55 | <geekosaur> | or escape sequence \f |
| 21:28:59 | <hololeap> | [exa]: yeah I like to break up my type signatures when possible (aka when it doesn't look stupid) |
| 21:29:43 | <hololeap> | Athas: I read something recently where a company figured out how to get some massive throughput with GHC. I'll see if I can find it |
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| 21:30:57 | <geekosaur> | at one point dons had a program that would try various combinations of (compile time and I think run time) options to get the fastest program. it's massively bitrotted of course at this point |
| 21:31:33 | <davean> | Athas: parallel gc benefits are entirely dataset dependent |
| 21:32:42 | <Athas> | davean: sure, but I recall it previously being a net negative for my workload. |
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| 21:32:52 | <Athas> | Of course I have upgraded both my machine and GHC since then. |
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| 21:41:28 | <hololeap> | Athas: found it: https://tech.channable.com/posts/2020-04-07-lessons-in-managing-haskell-memory.html |
| 21:42:25 | <Athas> | hololeap: thanks, I'll give it a read. |
| 21:43:08 | <__monty__> | hololeap: Strict 80 here as well. Leaves so much more room on my screen for browsers and whatnot. |
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| 21:44:31 | <hololeap> | __monty__: that's fair. out of curiosity, what WM do you use? |
| 21:44:40 | <Athas> | I wonder if I could use compact regions, or if that would fly too close to the sun... |
| 21:45:25 | <__monty__> | hololeap: Anything but tiling. I want fixed widths for most of my windows. |
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| 21:45:51 | <pavonia> | Is there no monadic version of foldl for ByteStrings? |
| 21:46:03 | <hololeap> | ok, yeah that's what I was curious about. I've used sway a bit and it was pretty cool, but I keep going back to plasma |
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| 21:47:54 | <dminuoso> | pavonia: You can handroll that trivially |
| 21:48:07 | <dminuoso> | foldlM f z0 xs = foldr c return xs z0 where c x k z = f z x >>= k |
| 21:48:14 | <hololeap> | pavonia: there's also something in mono-traversable |
| 21:48:17 | <dminuoso> | Is the definition of foldlM from base, you can copy that straight |
| 21:48:54 | <hololeap> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mono-traversable-1.0.15.1/docs/Data-MonoTraversable.html#v:ofoldlM |
| 21:49:27 | <dminuoso> | I found that mono-traversable is overkill for "that single function" usually :p |
| 21:49:37 | <hololeap> | fair enough |
| 21:49:59 | <pavonia> | dminuoso: Is that traversing from left to right? |
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| 21:50:33 | <dminuoso> | pavonia: right-associative in effects, left-associative in its output |
| 21:50:41 | <dminuoso> | See https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/Data-Foldable.html#v:foldlM |
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| 21:51:20 | <pavonia> | After more than 10 years in Haskell, those folds are still confusing me :S |
| 21:51:57 | <dminuoso> | pavonia: the main thing to understand is that foldr/foldl dont fold in different directions |
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| 21:52:37 | <pavonia> | Yeah, it depends on the function |
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| 21:53:16 | <dminuoso> | nope |
| 21:53:29 | <pavonia> | ? |
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| 21:54:51 | <davean> | pavonia: its the side the parens are placed on |
| 21:55:01 | <dminuoso> | try to imagine a fold as turning your structure into a list [1 2 3 4], and then putting a function between those elements [1 `f` 2 `f` 3 `4`] |
| 21:55:05 | <davean> | pavonia: the fold its self always progresses from the start of the datastrcuture to the end |
| 21:55:09 | <dminuoso> | the difference between foldr and foldr is how this associates |
| 21:55:11 | <dminuoso> | that is whether it becomes |
| 21:55:26 | <dminuoso> | ((1 `f` 2) `f` 3) `f` 4 |
| 21:55:27 | <dminuoso> | or |
| 21:55:41 | <dminuoso> | 1 `f` (2 `f` (3 `f` 4)) |
| 21:56:04 | <dminuoso> | I indentionally ignored the final element for pedagogic purposes. |
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| 21:57:18 | <pavonia> | Well, that basically is reversing the evaluation order, no? |
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| 21:57:25 | <dminuoso> | evaluation order? :) |
| 21:57:31 | <dminuoso> | is unspecified in haskell |
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| 21:57:58 | <pavonia> | There's only one meaningful way to evaluate those terms |
| 21:58:09 | <dminuoso> | Is there? |
| 21:58:54 | <dminuoso> | Let's make two real examples: |
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| 21:59:13 | <dminuoso> | foldr f z [1,2,3,4] = 1 `f` (2 `f` (3 `f` (4 `f` z))) |
| 22:00:00 | <dminuoso> | foldl f z [1,2,3,4] = (((z `f` 1) `f` 2) `f` 3) `f` 4 |
| 22:00:44 | <dminuoso> | If we set `f` to (+) we get |
| 22:01:15 | justache | is now known as justBull |
| 22:01:18 | <dminuoso> | Er, poor example |
| 22:02:50 | <pavonia> | f will always be left- or right-associative, so the evaluation order should always be fixed given the implicit parentheses |
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| 22:03:49 | <dminuoso> | What do you mean by evaluation order, exactly? |
| 22:03:54 | <dminuoso> | Consider setting `f` to (:) |
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| 22:04:03 | <dminuoso> | Would you agree that you dont need the right hand side to work with the left hand side? |
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| 22:04:26 | <dminuoso> | If you set `f` to (:) and `z` to [], you get: |
| 22:04:36 | <dminuoso> | 1 : (2 : (3 : (4 : []))) |
| 22:04:55 | <dminuoso> | And indeed, I can prove this will *not* force the right hand side |
| 22:05:09 | <dminuoso> | % take 10 $ foldr (:) [] [1..] |
| 22:05:09 | <yahb> | dminuoso: [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10] |
| 22:05:31 | <dminuoso> | pavonia: If what you said was right, and this evaluated from right to left, this would have bottomed out |
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| 22:06:10 | <monochrom> | > foldr (&&) undefined (repeat False) |
| 22:06:11 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 22:07:45 | <monochrom> | If your model doesn't explain that, it's a wrong model. |
| 22:08:05 | <monochrom> | If your model explains that but with lots of epicycles, it has lots of epicycles. |
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| 22:08:39 | ← | meltedbrain_y2k parts (~tekserf@45.83.220.218) () |
| 22:10:46 | <pavonia> | Well, thanks. I'll play with the fold*M defintions |
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| 22:12:00 | <hololeap> | dminuoso: hah, you picked an abelian monoid :p |
| 22:13:03 | <hololeap> | (choosing (+) as your example) |
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| 22:13:35 | <dminuoso> | hololeap: It was a bad example for a different reason. |
| 22:14:53 | <dminuoso> | The difference between foldr and foldl with (+) can be observed only indirectly |
| 22:15:18 | <hololeap> | oh, true |
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| 22:15:46 | <dminuoso> | one will cause a stack overflow, and the other will fill up your heap first. |
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| 22:16:46 | <dminuoso> | And that's actually what pavonia was probably thinking about |
| 22:17:40 | <dminuoso> | perhaps their mistake was not realizing that the function to foldr can itself return a lambda or be a data constructor |
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| 22:18:11 | <davean> | no, I don't think that explains the mistake |
| 22:18:16 | <dminuoso> | mmm |
| 22:18:34 | <davean> | consider if it doesn't look at an argument |
| 22:18:49 | <dminuoso> | right |
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| 22:19:50 | <pavonia> | What I'm trying to do is to run a `ST s ()` action on each element of a ByteString. I'm just unsure which of the two folds is the more efficient option in this case |
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| 22:21:44 | <dminuoso> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/Data-Foldable.html#v:foldrM |
| 22:21:49 | <dminuoso> | Read the documentation of both, and decide for yourself. |
| 22:22:12 | <dminuoso> | "efficiency" is not your problem, its that they have subtly different semantics wrt to MonadPlus |
| 22:22:30 | <dminuoso> | And they associate differently in output |
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| 22:29:03 | <hololeap> | pavonia: you probably want something like mapM_ |
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| 22:29:50 | <hololeap> | again, there is an example mono-traversable |
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| 22:31:13 | <hololeap> | well, not so much an example as a ready-made implementation |
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| 22:32:38 | <hololeap> | dminuoso: out of curiosity, what makes that package overkill to you? |
| 22:33:11 | <hololeap> | I see a lot of people complaining that dependencies are too "heavy" or pull in too many dependencies, and I don't really understand the logic |
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| 22:33:58 | <monochrom> | I would certainly use some version of mapM_. Be it the one from mono-traversable or roll-your-own "mapM_ foo . .unpack". |
| 22:34:32 | <pavonia> | mono-traversable uses `foldr ((*>) . f) (pure ())`, if I understand correctly |
| 22:35:04 | <monochrom> | That is exactly the efficient way. |
| 22:35:24 | <pavonia> | lol, thank you |
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| 22:35:46 | <monochrom> | At least if that "foldr" is []'s |
| 22:36:12 | <pavonia> | It's ByteString's foldr |
| 22:36:26 | <monochrom> | Then I don't actually know. |
| 22:36:30 | <hololeap> | that's surprising to me since foldl would work with infinite streams, but I suppose mono-traversable isn't set up for that |
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| 22:38:10 | <pavonia> | I'm really confused that there isn't a function for this in bytestring already. Running an action for each element seems such a common use-case to me |
| 22:39:06 | <hololeap> | my guess is that it's actually an unusal use case to run an action for each byte |
| 22:39:19 | <monochrom> | What I know so far is ByteString's foldr uses accursedUnutterablePerformIO |
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| 22:39:54 | <monochrom> | OK it is lazy enough to be efficient for this purpose. |
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| 22:41:06 | <monochrom> | And meta-ly, what hololeap says. |
| 22:41:21 | <monochrom> | There are two very simple principles. |
| 22:41:37 | <monochrom> | 1. Everyone has a different conviction of what counts as common. |
| 22:42:06 | <monochrom> | 2. You are not an author of that library. |
| 22:42:08 | <hololeap> | FWIW, vector has mapM_ |
| 22:42:10 | <hololeap> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.12.3.0/docs/Data-Vector.html#v:mapM_ |
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| 23:07:29 | <jumper149> | Hi, I'm looking for good resource on strictness. I want to be able to accurately use BangPatterns. |
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