Logs on 2021-05-30 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:19:23 | <edwardk> | am finally back in berkeley |
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| 00:19:31 | <edwardk> | oops, wrong channel |
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| 00:20:40 | <yushyin> | anyway, good for you ;) |
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| 00:22:15 | <edwardk> | its good to be home |
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| 01:25:39 | dmj` | peeks in |
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| 01:25:58 | geekosaur | waves |
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| 01:57:06 | dmj` | waves back |
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| 04:10:48 | <octarine> | Hi guys, can anyone look at a function I have written in Haskell (I am quite a newbie at it), and see whether it can be simplified? It is 20 lines long including comments. |
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| 04:23:39 | <wroathe> | octarine: Don't ask to ask, just ask (and share a link) |
| 04:24:01 | <octarine> | Ok, here it is: https://ideone.com/P1Y2WK |
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| 04:26:40 | <ordinate> | good evening |
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| 06:43:56 | <werneta> | octarine: something like this? https://ideone.com/FkLE74 |
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| 07:12:59 | <xsperry> | > M.fromListWith (\x y -> x ++ y) $ map (\(x,y) -> (x, [y])) [(1,"one"),(2,"two"),(1,"uno")] |
| 07:13:01 | <lambdabot> | fromList [(1,["uno","one"]),(2,["two"])] |
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| 07:14:41 | <xsperry> | > M.fromListWith (++) $ map (\(x,y) -> (x, [y])) [(1,"one"),(2,"two"),(1,"uno")] |
| 07:14:42 | <lambdabot> | fromList [(1,["uno","one"]),(2,["two"])] |
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| 07:15:43 | <xsperry> | > M.fromListWith (++) $ map (second (:[])) [(1,"one"),(2,"two"),(1,"uno")] |
| 07:15:45 | <lambdabot> | fromList [(1,["uno","one"]),(2,["two"])] |
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| 07:29:24 | <xerox> | :t M.map ($[]) . M.fromListWith (.) . map (second (:)) |
| 07:29:25 | <lambdabot> | Ord k => [(k, a)] -> M.Map k [a] |
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| 08:23:03 | <mc47> | Out of curiosity, is anyone using haskell for machine learning in a production setting? |
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| 08:26:47 | <maerwald> | mc47: I think Holmusk does, at least their backend is haskell and they do machine learning. It's ofc possible they still use Scala or whatnot for that part of the pipeline. |
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| 08:27:45 | <maerwald> | You can ping their CTO on LinkedIn maybe, they used to have a vivid tech blog a few years ago. Not sure that's still the case. |
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| 08:31:42 | <mc47> | maerwald, thank you, I'll check it out |
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| 08:32:10 | <mc47> | I'm just having a course on deep learning, and I found haskell quite a good candidate for the kinds of tasks we were doing |
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| 08:34:26 | <mc47> | any libraries or frameworks I should checkout? |
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| 08:42:17 | <superstar64> | is it possible to convert a `ST s1 (ST s2 a)` into `ST s2 (ST s1 a)`? |
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| 08:49:31 | <int-e> | no. how does that even come up? |
| 08:50:30 | <superstar64> | i'm just curious, i'm design a language with what i call "phantom pair" and which linear types, `ST` is complete with them |
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| 08:51:06 | <superstar64> | would `ST` break if `ST s1 (ST s2 a) -> ST s2 (ST s1 a)` was allowed? |
| 08:52:41 | <int-e> | I don't know what that is to do, operationally. |
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| 08:54:47 | <superstar64> | `Kleisli (ST s)` is `(a, s) -> (a, s)` where `s` is either a real world or a type variable. these `(,)` aren't actual pairs (rhs isn't can't be a runtime) |
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| 08:55:25 | <superstar64> | i'm trying to see if can sane semantics for these types of pairs so i can be complete with ST |
| 08:55:38 | <superstar64> | or i should just go for making `ST` a builtin |
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| 09:01:34 | <int-e> | @djinn (s1 -> (s2 -> (a, s2), s1)) -> (s2 -> (s1 -> (a, s1), s2)) |
| 09:01:34 | <lambdabot> | f a b = |
| 09:01:34 | <lambdabot> | (\ c -> |
| 09:01:34 | <lambdabot> | case a c of |
| 09:01:35 | <lambdabot> | (d, e) -> case d b of |
| 09:01:35 | <lambdabot> | (f, _) -> (f, e), |
| 09:01:36 | <lambdabot> | b) |
| 09:03:02 | <superstar64> | ok, it's ignoring one of the pair's item, seems like that should be illegal in a linear setting |
| 09:03:10 | <int-e> | You /can/ do this, but note that b , which is supposed to be a state token, gets duplicated. Oh and another state token gets discarded. So it's not reasonable in an ST context. |
| 09:03:40 | <int-e> | And I think the type does dictate that implementation, there is no other way. |
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| 09:04:33 | <superstar64> | i'm also wondering what the ST equivalent of `(a, s1, s2) -> (a, s2, s1)` would be |
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| 09:07:23 | <int-e> | It doesn't come up since the ST type is restricted to a single state token type that's totally opaque? I mean, there's no ST operations that work with a product of states. |
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| 09:08:06 | <int-e> | I.e. there's no support for separation of the state into independent parts. |
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| 09:08:11 | <siraben> | @djinn a %1-> a |
| 09:08:11 | <lambdabot> | Cannot parse command |
| 09:08:38 | <int-e> | superstar64: It is something that would make sense though. It's just isn't supported. |
| 09:10:04 | <superstar64> | i'm just kinda nervous that my idea might be inconsistent or not referentially transparent |
| 09:10:20 | <int-e> | Probably hard to express with the way runST works... |
| 09:10:51 | <int-e> | @type runST -- s can be any type, but for doing separation nicely we would need products. |
| 09:10:53 | <lambdabot> | (forall s. ST s a) -> a |
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| 09:12:29 | <int-e> | But, just for fun, one could have (forall s1 s2. ST (s1,s2) a) -> ST s a, and then injections ST s1 a -> ST (s1, s2) a and ST s2 a -> ST (s1, s2) a, without breaking ST semantics. |
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| 09:14:34 | <int-e> | I'm mostly just musing, this doesn't seem to be too useful. |
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| 09:16:33 | <superstar64> | well, i might have a use for it, you might want both a state thread and `real world` for intermitting side effects regioned memory pointers |
| 09:16:36 | <int-e> | superstar64: in any case, I think that then you /could/ have a sound coercion between ST (s1,s2) a and ST (s2,s1) a. |
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| 09:17:36 | <superstar64> | *side effects and regioned |
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| 09:27:35 | <wz1000> | superstar64: it you have an ST with arena style allocation semantics rather than a GC it will break |
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| 09:28:36 | <superstar64> | how will it break? i'm not planning on having a gc though |
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| 09:31:54 | <wz1000> | If you turn `ST s1 (ST s2 a)` into `ST s2 (ST s1 a)`, and `s2 < s1`, then there might be things in region s2 that reference things in region s1, but these references will be dangling if you free region s1 but not s2 |
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| 09:32:42 | <superstar64> | right, i got that `ST s1 (ST s2 a) -> ST s2 (ST s1 a)` is illegal |
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| 09:34:07 | <superstar64> | wz1000, , vanilla ST doesn't break with a regions at least right? |
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| 09:34:32 | <superstar64> | i wonder it can help GHC optimizes ST |
| 09:34:44 | <wz1000> | No, ST is just IO |
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| 10:32:04 | <siers> | I have no threaded code, but compiling with -threaded -with-rtsopts='-N8' makes it 28% slower (32s/41s) |
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| 10:32:53 | <siers> | well, maybe some of the things I'm using are threaded, but I'm not sure what exactly... htop certainly shows it's using all cores |
| 10:33:43 | <Rembane> | siers: What's your program doing on a high level? |
| 10:33:54 | <Rembane> | siers: What are the dependencies? |
| 10:34:05 | <koishi_> | could be GC |
| 10:34:36 | <siers> | updating IntMaps, i/o on a mutable vector |
| 10:35:08 | <koishi_> | enabling threaded runtime can hurt performance if your code doesn't make active use of parallelism |
| 10:38:36 | <Rembane> | siers: Got it. Since it was way too long ago I experimented with parallel and concurrernt code in Haskell I think it's best to just use the fastest runtime settings, but there's probably someone else here who has a more informed opinion. :) |
| 10:39:05 | <siers> | I can also shaer the code, if you want, but it's 1k LOC |
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| 10:39:40 | <siers> | koishi_, with parallelInterleaved from parallel-io I shaved off some seconds, but I was just surprised it's not a little more |
| 10:40:17 | <Rembane> | siers: Check out Criterion see what is taking time. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/criterion |
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| 10:44:56 | <tomsmeding> | edwardk: the topic still says the matrix bridge is coming soon, but it seems to be up now (and working quite well, hearing from friends) |
| 10:45:19 | <lieuwex> | officially it is still "in testing" though if I'm not mistaken |
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| 10:46:21 | <koishi_> | siers actually you can try reducing -N |
| 10:46:53 | <koishi_> | My laptop has 6 cores, but -N2 always gives me best performance |
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| 10:47:32 | <koishi_> | Moreover, try using +RTS -s to see how well GC is doing, and adjust -A / -H if needed |
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| 10:50:54 | <arrowd> | Hello. I have OP on #haskell-freebsd @ Freenode. Can I get it on Libera too? |
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| 10:52:36 | <siers> | koishi_, -N2 gives you the best results? :/ that is too bad |
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| 10:54:10 | <tomsmeding> | siers: have you tried passing '+RTS -qg'? Haven't really followed the conversation, but it seems like it wasn't mentioned yet |
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| 10:54:50 | <tomsmeding> | that does something with making the GC run per-thread or so, I don't know the details but for many programs it's a huge speedup, especially with large -N |
| 10:55:12 | <tomsmeding> | though apparently with recent GHC versions the parallel GC has gotten better |
| 10:56:06 | <maerwald> | arrowd: ping edwardk |
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| 10:59:20 | <siers> | tomsmeding, slightly better, but still only equal to running time with -N1 |
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| 11:17:07 | <junkicide> | how do extract a from Just a (for example, I want 5 from Just 5) |
| 11:17:20 | <maerwald> | :t fromJust |
| 11:17:21 | <lambdabot> | Maybe a -> a |
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| 11:19:18 | <siers> | what if 5 is in an IO, then how do I extract it? /s |
| 11:19:23 | <juri_> | :t maybe |
| 11:19:24 | <lambdabot> | b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b |
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| 11:19:42 | <maerwald> | :t unsafePerformIO |
| 11:19:43 | <xsperry> | junkicide, you should usually pattern match over using fromJust |
| 11:19:43 | <lambdabot> | error: Variable not in scope: unsafePerformIO |
| 11:19:53 | <maerwald> | siers: that |
| 11:19:57 | <siers> | maerwald, :P could've said "*maybe* you don't" |
| 11:20:10 | <maerwald> | xsperry: they said they have `Just 5` so it's already matched |
| 11:20:56 | <siers> | junkicide, to elaborate on what xsperry said, fromJust is implemented by pattern matching with the implemention of error "failed match" in case of a Nothing |
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| 11:23:02 | <koishi_> | writing partial functions is usually a bad idea tho |
| 11:23:33 | <maerwald> | I beg to differ |
| 11:23:57 | <maerwald> | most of your haskell programs is partial functions, most likely |
| 11:24:04 | <maerwald> | all IO is partial |
| 11:24:34 | <maerwald> | because there's no proper pattern matching on exceptions |
| 11:24:54 | <Vq> | maerwald: That's a poor justification for using head and fromJust all over the place. |
| 11:25:05 | <maerwald> | Vq: no one said "all over the place" |
| 11:25:23 | <juri_> | I'm trying to apply stan to my codebase. only 460 complaints to go! |
| 11:25:25 | <maerwald> | if I have local proof inside a function, I will use fromJust and friends just fine |
| 11:25:27 | <Vq> | maerwald: It's still beneficial to avoid them. |
| 11:25:33 | <maerwald> | Vq: depends |
| 11:25:43 | <maerwald> | I'm very much againt "total prelude" as an idea |
| 11:26:32 | <maerwald> | if you use `fromJust` on *user input*, that's obviously a pretty bad idea |
| 11:27:52 | <maerwald> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/spacecookie-1.0.0.0/docs/src/Network.Gopher.Util.html#stripNewline |
| 11:27:53 | <Rembane> | But fun! :D |
| 11:28:01 | <maerwald> | here, it uses head |
| 11:28:08 | <maerwald> | and it's perfectly total (the function) |
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| 11:29:28 | <maerwald> | pattern matching isn't always a sensible option |
| 11:29:29 | <siers> | maerwald, I agree with what you're saying, but everyone is always so eager to make sure that you know what you're doing that it's almost better not to say anything |
| 11:30:18 | <Vq> | maerwald: I do things like that myself from time to time and that's a good example of when it reads better. |
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| 11:31:16 | <Vq> | maerwald: But if your function is any larger it will require more thought when changing it. |
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| 11:31:40 | <Vq> | maerwald: Whereas if you used pattern matching and total functions everywhere it's alright to be slightly drunk. |
| 11:32:14 | <maerwald> | Vq: most of my own codes complexity comes from IO exceptions and IO-things done wrong |
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| 11:33:34 | <maerwald> | And... having Maybe everywhere isn't exactly a proper application error handling system |
| 11:33:34 | <Vq> | maerwald: That's probably universal, I just don't think it justifies making code not dependent on IO more fragile under change. |
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| 11:34:01 | <zebrag> | maerwald: I'm intrigued by that "local proof inside a function". |
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| 11:34:12 | <Vq> | maerwald: No arguments there. |
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| 11:34:47 | <maerwald> | so if you talk total... use proper data structures, like NonEmptyList |
| 11:34:53 | <Vq> | zebrag: The spacecookie example was a good example |
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| 11:35:16 | <Vq> | zebrag: It's obvious the null-case is handled |
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| 11:35:34 | <zebrag> | Vq: do you have a link to that, I'm not familiar with it |
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| 11:35:55 | <Vq> | 13:27 < maerwald> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/spacecookie-1.0.0.0/docs/src/Network.Gopher.Util.html#stripNewline |
| 11:36:04 | <Vq> | 13:27 < maerwald> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/spacecookie-1.0.0.0/docs/src/Network.Gopher.Util.html#stripNewline |
| 11:36:06 | <zebrag> | thanks |
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| 11:37:12 | <Vq> | Sorry about the twofer, my copy-paste skills are lacking. :( |
| 11:37:30 | <Vq> | Maybe there's a course on that for programmers... |
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| 11:39:09 | <zebrag> | Yes, it's for seasoned programmers only |
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| 11:41:40 | <Vq> | I see a lot of younger programmers practicing it, I can't speak for their skill though. |
| 11:41:55 | <maerwald> | lol |
| 11:42:19 | <maerwald> | learning programming is learning copy-paste |
| 11:43:06 | <zebrag> | Of course you're not supposed to write the code yourself |
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| 11:46:42 | <Vq> | I'm more of an Emacs kill-yank person. |
| 11:49:44 | <Vq> | The X11 clipboard have confused me for decades. |
| 11:49:44 | <zebrag> | What is the word to speak about... okay found it already "infinite type". Not sure it's haskell related, was just looking up the definition. [https://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs4110/2012fa/lectures/lecture27.pdf] |
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| 11:53:31 | <zebrag> | "infinite type" would be a "recursive (data) type" allowing for infinite constructions. |
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| 11:56:28 | <zebrag> | Vq: I use emacs-nox/wayland/wl-clipboard. |
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| 12:19:23 | <nonzen_> | info #tahoe-lafs |
| 12:19:26 | <nonzen_> | whoops |
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| 12:49:14 | <Philonous> | I'm trying to look at the TH splices of a module, so I'm calling cabal like this: »cabal build --ghc-options="-ddump-splices -ddump-to-file" <target>« but after it finishes I'm not finding the dumped output. What am I doing wrong? |
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| 12:50:30 | <Philonous> | As in, »find . -iname '*.dump*'« doesn't find anything |
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| 13:38:06 | <jco_> | Hi, I'm going through the CIS 194 course, and I'm currently trying to use QuickCheck to do some property-based testing. So far, I've got a QuickCheck generator working for the expression type `data ExprT = Lit Integer | Add ExprT ExprT | Mul ExprT ExprT`. But then the exercise makes you also implement an interpreter of arithmetic expressions for a stack-based VM. So my current idea is to add a QuickCheck |
| 13:38:12 | <jco_> | property that verifies that all programs, interpreted and evaluated by the stack-based VM, give the same result as if interpreted as an "immediate" expression. One approach would be to pretty-print an ExprT-expression, then parse the resulting string as a `StackVM` program, and finally use /that/ to evaluate the program and verify that the result is the same as the result of immediately evaluating the |
| 13:38:18 | <jco_> | ExprT-expression. But maybe there are simpler/better ways of achieving this goal? |
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| 13:47:39 | <Philonous> | jco_, The thing I would go for would be to write a compiler ExprT -> StackVM and an interpreter for StackVM and then check that forall x: interpret_ExprT(x) === interpret_StackVM(compilter(x)) |
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| 13:48:38 | <Philonous> | or maybe in more haskelly syntax: interpretExprT x == interpretStackVM (compile x) |
| 13:49:30 | <tomsmeding> | what you currently have is essentially: compile x = parse (show x) |
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| 13:50:24 | <Philonous> | Yes, was about to write that. The point is, you are proposing another intermediate representation that's just a string, which I think makes the problem harder and less tracktable |
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| 13:50:47 | <Philonous> | If you want you can do that as well, but I would treat it as an additional problem with its own properties |
| 13:51:01 | <tomsmeding> | unless you already have those show and parse components anyway :) |
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| 13:51:47 | <Philonous> | Sure, but in that case I would suggest writing a direct compile :: ExprT -> StackVM and then have a property that tests that for all x: compile x == parse (print x) |
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| 13:57:13 | <jco_> | Yes, I already have the parser functions for the various types. But immediately converting ("compiling") an ExprT to a StackVM program sounds more straight forward. I'll try that. |
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| 13:57:25 | <monadlight> | newbie question: how do I clean up GHC installed by Stack? And how do I know what versions/installations of GHC Stack has installed? |
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| 14:00:42 | <jco_> | monadlight: Maybe look in ~/.stack? I don't have any on my current machine so cannot verify for sure. |
| 14:00:53 | <Philonous> | monadlight, Under linux, it's under ~/.stack/programs/ |
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| 14:01:22 | <monadlight> | I see a bunch of ghc in ~/.stack/programs but not couldn't find a stack command to propertly clean them up. |
| 14:01:39 | <Philonous> | I'm not sure there is one |
| 14:01:43 | <monadlight> | Do they just linger around forever? |
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| 14:03:14 | <monadlight> | If I delete everything in ~/.stack/programs, stack would just reinstall them next time....? |
| 14:03:15 | <Philonous> | As far as I'm aware, they do. I regularly delete everything in ~/.stack except the config file and stack will re-download what it needs |
| 14:03:18 | <Philonous> | Yes |
| 14:03:39 | <monadlight> | Cool |
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| 14:04:42 | <monadlight> | There are like pantry.sqlite3 and other hackage index file... those are quite big too. |
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| 14:06:22 | <Philonous> | If you delete stuff, it will be rebuilt, which can take time and bandwidth, but otherwise it should be fine. |
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| 14:13:12 | <tomsmeding> | yeah stack doesn't really have cleanup commands for that, but the whole point of the design of stack means that if you delete stuff, it will be re-downloaded and/or rebuilt next time you need it |
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| 14:13:55 | <tomsmeding> | though I'm not sure up to what point you can partially delete stuff; maybe it assumes that if half of a ghc installation is there, the rest is there too |
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| 15:07:10 | <maerwald> | well, good news... stack will very likely have to implement a self-cleanup command when the installer proposal is published |
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| 15:10:53 | <fosskers> | A unified and blessed universal installer will be a great move forward. |
| 15:11:46 | <maerwald> | That's not going to happen anytime soon |
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| 15:12:45 | <cdsmith> | maerwald: Why the pessimism? The process seems to be moving forward. |
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| 15:13:05 | <fosskers> | Yeah actually, HF has an endeavour there. |
| 15:13:15 | <maerwald> | cdsmith: I'm part of the process. And as you can read on the discourse thread from Michael, there was no suggestion on how to remove the fragmentation. |
| 15:13:46 | <maerwald> | So we're focussing on how to have good standards for installers |
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| 15:14:15 | <cdsmith> | That's too bad. :( |
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| 15:14:58 | <maerwald> | Well, it's the right decision |
| 15:15:57 | <maerwald> | You could say the first step to unification ARE the standards |
| 15:16:10 | <maerwald> | But ofc that's maybe step 1 out of 10 |
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| 15:42:21 | <tomsmeding> | can't have unification if you don't have a thing to unify around |
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| 15:55:21 | <jco_> | Philonous: OK, had to take a break to watch 5 episodes of Cobra Kai, but that approach worked nicely! Cool to generate arbitrary "programs" using QuickCheck I must say. |
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| 15:59:20 | <wroathe> | maerwald: Do you happen to have said link on hand? |
| 15:59:31 | <wroathe> | maerwald: Or a link to said thread, rather? |
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| 16:06:22 | <maerwald> | wroathe: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/proposal-unified-installer/2468/33 |
| 16:06:36 | <wroathe> | maerwald: Thanks |
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| 16:30:48 | <shiraeeshi> | tomsmeding: ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com doesn't show freenode haskell logs and says to ask here |
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| 16:32:22 | <shiraeeshi> | are those logs going to be available later? |
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| 17:05:24 | <maerwald> | if you have a point-free definition of a function, how does -XStrict behave... will it only insert bangs for the bindings you provide or will it eta-expand first? |
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| 17:21:51 | <glguy> | maerwald, I'd expect and hope it didn't expand first |
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| 17:22:47 | <maerwald> | that makes sense, but is also kinda a pitfall |
| 17:22:48 | <glguy> | afaik it's just a simple random sprinkling of strictness bangs on the names in you patterns |
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| 17:23:01 | <glguy> | pitfall is the name of the game with -XStrict |
| 17:23:33 | <maerwald> | foo = \x -> bar -- will it insert for `x`? |
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| 17:24:21 | <glguy> | That's my reading of https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/strict.html?highlight=xstrict#strict-by-default-pattern-bindings |
| 17:24:35 | <zebrag> | Bartosz: Yes, the existence of a terminal object, of course, is what allows to consider elements inside objects, in Set. I spoke far too quickly yesterday. |
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| 17:26:05 | <tomsmeding> | shiraeeshi: I still have those logs, would be fairly easy to put them up again. I mainly put up that notice to see if anyone actually cared about them :) |
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| 17:38:34 | <Philonous> | Is it normal that changing a »data« to a »newtype« in an unopportune place sends the inliner into a frenzy, blowing the resulting core up by an order of magnitude? |
| 17:39:16 | <shiraeeshi> | tomsmeding: you don't plan to delete them? can you send a copy to me? |
| 17:39:50 | <[exa]> | Philonous: newtypes simplify strictness analysis, thus open more inlining possibilities, and in turn the inliner may overdo it a bit, yes. :] |
| 17:39:56 | <shiraeeshi> | I have logs from tunes.org, they take up something like 250 mbs |
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| 17:40:04 | <tomsmeding> | shiraeeshi: I'll put them up again until someone asks me to put them down :p |
| 17:40:12 | <tomsmeding> | I can also send you the plain znc logs if you wish |
| 17:40:22 | ← | unyu parts (~pyon@user/pyon) (WeeChat 3.1) |
| 17:40:23 | <shiraeeshi> | yes please |
| 17:41:11 | <davean> | Philonous: data and newtype are deeply different |
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| 17:41:45 | <davean> | Philonous: thats a bit of a weird result to get mind you, but it would come down to the case |
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| 17:42:39 | <tomsmeding> | shiraeeshi: https://tomsmeding.com/vang/TiewNq/freenode-logs.tar.gz |
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| 17:43:04 | <davean> | tomsmeding: I'd assume that search engines would care the most. |
| 17:43:15 | <tomsmeding> | hm that's true |
| 17:43:17 | <shiraeeshi> | yay |
| 17:43:28 | <Philonous> | The resulting executable is about 50% faster , it just takes 24GB and 15 minutes to compile, wheres with the "data" it takes ~3 seconds. |
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| 17:43:48 | <davean> | Philonous: I mean thats VERY believable when you change semantics |
| 17:43:59 | <tomsmeding> | "accepting non-standard pattern guards (use PatternGuards to suppress this message)" -- "[chan] <- filter ((== thisChan) . showChan) [toEnum 0 .. ]" |
| 17:44:00 | <shiraeeshi> | only 12 mbs? let's see how much they weigh after extracting |
| 17:44:02 | <davean> | Philonous: but if it is that bad to compile I expect you're doing something naughty |
| 17:44:05 | <davean> | or at least deviant |
| 17:44:09 | <tomsmeding> | I've never before seen that warning |
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| 17:44:24 | <tomsmeding> | does anyone know what that is about? |
| 17:45:25 | <davean> | Philonous: to get what you're talking about there has to be a LOT of indirection, showing some code might be good |
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| 17:47:12 | <Philonous> | davean, It's not a small test case yet. I'm working on vinyl, and I'm trying to replace one of their "data" constructors with a newtype, because it gives very promising results in benchmarks. But it turns out that doing that blows up tests in the "Frames" library |
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| 17:47:46 | <davean> | Oh I see, yah, exactly, VERY much indirection, using the compiler as a horrible substitute for a theorem prover |
| 17:48:11 | <davean> | By adding the right shortcuts you probably can clean that up though |
| 17:48:31 | <davean> | either the right RULES or type theorems |
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| 17:49:50 | <davean> | Hell, you might be doing a coercion the long way round or something. |
| 17:49:50 | <Philonous> | I'm thinking that maybe it's one too many {-# INLINE #-} pragmas |
| 17:49:54 | <shiraeeshi> | tomsmeding: thanks. is that all the logs? they begin at 2020-09-16. |
| 17:50:13 | <fosskers> | Philonous: Yeah too-aggressive INLINEing can cause you trouble. |
| 17:50:37 | <davean> | well, too many inlines is exactly where I'd suggest a RULE that skips a large chunk of them |
| 17:50:39 | <tomsmeding> | shiraeeshi: it's all the logs that I have; I only started this instance of ircbrowse around that time :) |
| 17:50:53 | <Philonous> | What's bothering me is that it's 13 top-level declarations, and having 3 of the runs in seconds, but 7 takes 4 minutes, so there's something superlinear going on |
| 17:51:12 | <tomsmeding> | Chris Done has run the thing in the past, but I suggest you look at the tunes.org logs if you want more completeness regarding freenode |
| 17:51:18 | <Philonous> | All 13 just eats up all my 64GB of RAM |
| 17:52:38 | <shiraeeshi> | tomsmeding: ok, just wanted to make sure. I hope that logs from two sources will close some gaps when the logger missed some messages. thanks again. |
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| 18:44:58 | <siers> | doesn't ReaderT's withReaderT make it kind of StateT-ish? |
| 18:44:59 | ← | mib_p5ug0g parts (a0ee4a6a@ircip1.mibbit.com) () |
| 18:45:31 | <siers> | :t withReaderT |
| 18:45:32 | <lambdabot> | (r' -> r) -> ReaderT r m a -> ReaderT r' m a |
| 18:45:54 | <siers> | so if I have "do f; g", then I can "do f; withReaderT modify (pure ()); g" |
| 18:46:04 | <siers> | ah, but and so can g inside of it |
| 18:46:25 | <tomsmeding> | you can change stuff going inwards, but the changes don't propagate outward |
| 18:46:44 | <tomsmeding> | with state, changes to the state made by subcomputations propagate upward to the parent computation |
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| 18:47:37 | <siers> | alright! :) |
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| 19:10:43 | <Athas> | Does anyone know of a maintained fork of this? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cmath |
| 19:10:53 | <Athas> | carter: if such a fork exists, I guess you'd know about it. |
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| 19:17:16 | <carter> | Does it not build? |
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| 19:38:13 | <ordinate> | good afternoon |
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| 19:47:11 | <tomsmeding> | good evening :) |
| 19:47:39 | <shapr> | hi! |
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| 19:51:04 | <Rembane> | Good evening! :) |
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| 19:54:36 | <ordinate> | hope yall are doing well, im currently stuck learning web development backwards |
| 19:55:58 | <sm[m]> | sounds fun |
| 19:56:23 | <shapr> | ordinate: backwards? |
| 19:56:26 | <shapr> | what does that mean? |
| 19:57:09 | <sm[m]> | sdrawkcab |
| 19:57:15 | <ordinate> | i decided my first "real" haskell project would be a webgame despite having never coded anything for the web, so i'm learning all the frontend things through the miso haskell framework |
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| 20:00:39 | <carter> | Athas: naively, it seems like something htat shouldn't need any real updates .. |
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| 20:03:59 | <space-shell> | Hey ordinate, If you're working on a 2D game and you can find a nice SVG manipulation library in Haskell, you could use that to 'render' your game quite well rather than getting into any WebGL or CSS stuff, SVG is pretty much just Markup |
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| 20:04:26 | <space-shell> | s/that/SVG's |
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| 20:05:06 | <ordinate> | that'd be a good idea, yeah. i think miso has stuff for messing with SVG's in the browser, currently i'm only just drawing things to the canvas |
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| 20:12:55 | <xsperry> | . |
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| 20:21:51 | <dminuoso> | Philonous: Well, with the inliner I experienced degenerate behavior with megaparsec using `asum [string "foo" $> Foo, string "bar $> Bar, ...]`. It turns out, there's a sweet spot where the inliner completely explodes upwards of 50s (for nothing but that single line of code). Adding one more to the list brings it back down to a second because the inliner stops doing its job. |
| 20:22:07 | <dminuoso> | Philonous: (With megaparsec the problem is that you get a transitive mess of INLINE pragmas everywhere) |
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| 20:24:54 | <dminuoso> | Philonous: You can pass `-v` to GHC to see where it spends a lot of time and memory in |
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| 20:36:56 | <maerwald> | sm[m]: are you on windows these days? |
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| 20:46:54 | <sm[m]> | maerwald: no way, what gave you that idea ? |
| 20:47:08 | <maerwald> | just looking for testers |
| 20:47:21 | <sm[m]> | heh |
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| 20:47:34 | <Athas> | carter: libm might not change much, but GHC sure does. It doesn't build. |
| 20:47:51 | <Athas> | I guess I could take it over. |
| 20:48:03 | <sm[m]> | I think you seriously will avoid a lot of pain by getting hold of a Windows, eh ? |
| 20:48:17 | <sm[m]> | In the cloud or otherwise |
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| 20:49:46 | <maerwald> | sm[m]: I have a VM |
| 20:49:57 | <maerwald> | but on machine doesn't tell me much |
| 20:50:01 | <maerwald> | *one |
| 20:50:56 | <sm[m]> | good - hostwinds, or did you find a better one ? |
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| 20:51:16 | <sm[m]> | oh VM. Even better I guess |
| 20:52:18 | <maerwald> | I dunno, win10 seems free |
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| 20:53:20 | <carter> | Athas: whats the build failure? does it just need a trustee tickle? |
| 20:53:57 | <Athas> | carter: no, it imports the wrong things to get e.g. unsafePerformIO. |
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| 20:53:59 | <Athas> | It's from 2008! |
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| 20:54:05 | <carter> | ok |
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| 20:54:24 | <Athas> | I wrote Don Stewart asking to take over maintenance. I could make a new package, but cmath is exactly the right name for this. |
| 20:55:06 | <tomsmeding> | "-fvia-C" -- blast from the past! |
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| 21:09:47 | <carter> | Yeah |
| 21:09:57 | <carter> | Athas: sounds good :) |
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| 21:13:12 | <carter> | Granted it’s super easy to bind those. But having an off the shelf spot that just builds sounds ncie |
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| 21:18:20 | <Philonous> | davean, dminuoso I ended up bisecting the INLINE pragmas in Frames and found a single one that could be turned into an INLINEABLE without affecting runtime and it stopped the inliner from going crazy |
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| 21:19:26 | <Philonous> | This seems to be a dark art, though. I have very littel intuition about when to {-# INLINE -#}, when to {-# INLINEABLE -#} and when not to bother (I usually don't bother). |
| 21:19:37 | <dminuoso> | Philonous: Presumably GHC spends too much with ConstSpec |
| 21:19:47 | <dminuoso> | Philonous: as a good rule of thumb, keep your fingersa way from INLINE. |
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| 21:20:51 | <Philonous> | Yes, it seems to be a big hammer |
| 21:21:08 | <dminuoso> | INLINABLE otoh is a good thing since it just *enables* optimizations without forcing/nudging GHC |
| 21:21:15 | <dminuoso> | That might not occur |
| 21:21:45 | <Philonous> | The way to know is to notice that the program isn't going fast enough and then looking at core? |
| 21:21:59 | <Philonous> | If INLINEABLE is good, why is it not the default? |
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| 21:22:42 | <geekosaur> | because sometimes it prevents other optimizations |
| 21:23:39 | <Philonous> | Is there a book / paper / other resource that I can read about all of this? |
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| 21:24:08 | <davean> | ou generally only want to INLINE small things that don't depend on other things |
| 21:24:13 | <davean> | thats the safe option generally |
| 21:24:17 | <carter> | yeah, tiny wrappery stuff |
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| 21:24:28 | <carter> | dont mark stuff inline/inlineable unless you have evidence its safe |
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| 21:27:04 | <dminuoso> | Philonous: So GHC will put definitions of functions into interface files. However, without INLINABLE there's no guarantee of it happening (GHC will only do so its its small). |
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| 21:27:31 | <dminuoso> | With INLINABLE it will put the original definition (and potentially specialized versions), but those are pre-simplifier. |
| 21:27:43 | <maerwald[m]> | Monad instances? |
| 21:28:02 | <maerwald[m]> | I've seen INLINE there a lot |
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| 21:47:32 | <Philonous> | So, is the point of INLINE then to allow other optimizations to fire (e.g. case of known constructor or case merging). And if there's no optimization we specifically depend on, it's best not to INLINE? |
| 21:48:32 | <dminuoso> | Philonous: INLINE is a very strong nudge for GHC to inline it, almost forcefully. |
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| 21:49:05 | <dminuoso> | INLINABLE guarantees that interface files have definitions (+ possible specializations), such that they can be inlined cross module/package |
| 21:49:46 | <dminuoso> | But INLINABLE it wont make GHC any more likely to inline a definition than without it. |
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| 21:51:14 | <Philonous> | dminuoso, Yes, I understand that much, I'm trying to get a feeling for when to use INLINE |
| 21:53:59 | <dminuoso> | One important use case is if you have RULES mentioning bits in the definition of `f`. |
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| 21:54:46 | <dminuoso> | Then you might want to forcibly inline `f` via INLINE, so the RULES can fire |
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| 21:55:22 | <dminuoso> | With INLINABLE (or nothing) you'd be at the mercy of inliner whether or not they can fire |
| 21:57:21 | <dminuoso> | edwardk has something to say as well in this thread https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/cjkc3l/should_i_be_inlining_instance_implementations/evegaqv/ |
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| 22:00:39 | <Philonous> | Thanks! |
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| 22:07:27 | <danso> | how would you design a compiler in haskell with a module system? |
| 22:07:48 | <danso> | a compiler is maybe the classic example of a program as a pure function |
| 22:07:59 | <danso> | source code input -> program output, no side effects |
| 22:08:14 | <danso> | but i just realized mine will need to read the filesystem at some point if i'm going to implement modules :^/ |
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| 22:10:48 | <dminuoso> | danso: You could of course preload everything before-hand, but that might not scale well. |
| 22:11:20 | <danso> | yeah, it seems not ideal to keep all the source code in memory at all times |
| 22:11:20 | <[exa]> | danso: that's a highly impure view of pure functions |
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| 22:11:51 | <danso> | it also would mean the parser would have to do IO, or at least use the IO monad |
| 22:11:51 | <dminuoso> | danso: Even in GHC there's a lot of IO going on, except the simplifer. The simplifier is really just a pipeline of `Core -> Core` functions :) |
| 22:12:48 | <lucky> | top level part could be impure, handle each bit loaded purely, proceed to next step depending |
| 22:12:54 | <[exa]> | danso: like, I see how you meant it, but really pure practical compilers are hard to find |
| 22:13:09 | <dminuoso> | danso: Also, just because IO is present doesnt mean its pervasive. |
| 22:13:16 | <lucky> | all of the impurity in my toy compiler is in a few dozen lines in Main.hs |
| 22:13:27 | <dminuoso> | By necessity all Haskell programas have IO by virtue of main having type `IO a` |
| 22:13:36 | <dminuoso> | But that doesnt mean you cant have pure parts in your program |
| 22:13:38 | <lucky> | i load up stuff, throw it off to pure fns, collect it and proceed conditionally based on that in the top level IO |
| 22:14:09 | <danso> | lucky, does yours support a module system? |
| 22:14:18 | <lucky> | so I do have a function that goes Text -> Program whech Program is the unchecked AST after parsing |
| 22:14:21 | <lucky> | which is pretty :) |
| 22:14:33 | <lucky> | danso: no sir, can't offer specfic advice there, sorry |
| 22:14:45 | <danso> | it sounds like yours and mine are in about the same place |
| 22:14:57 | <danso> | a glorious place it is, but this feature threatens everything |
| 22:15:32 | <lucky> | i'd just parse the module stuff, pass it up to top level as part of the result, and handle the conditional ugly real world there and try to contain it :) |
| 22:15:50 | Lycurgus | is not sure a module system makes sense in hs world |
| 22:16:19 | <lucky> | a compiler *in* haskell, i don't know that it's *for* haskell |
| 22:16:25 | <dminuoso> | danso: So what GHC roughly does is this: Each module gets compiled into an object file and an interface file. The object file can be linked, and the interface file contains all the useful information for dependent modules. |
| 22:16:30 | <lucky> | mine compiles C (ish) |
| 22:17:02 | <dminuoso> | danso: So when GHC first generates an object and interface file for module A, and then processes a module B that depends on A, it then loads the interface file of A |
| 22:18:03 | <dminuoso> | (And the interface file would contain information like what what values are exported, their types, etc) |
| 22:18:24 | <danso> | dminuoso, that is helpful |
| 22:18:36 | <danso> | so compile each file totally separately, and leave an object file that can be linked |
| 22:19:19 | <danso> | and my small `main :: IO a` can load up only the relevant .hi files instead of loading the source code for every imported module and compiling it |
| 22:19:36 | <dminuoso> | Indeed. This is also how C works, except the preprocessor is used with coding conventions (header files) to implement what GHC uses interface files for |
| 22:19:41 | <dminuoso> | Right. |
| 22:20:09 | <danso> | golly those ghc authors are smart |
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| 22:21:56 | <danso> | i guess this still means i need to parse at least the first lines of every source code file within IO |
| 22:22:05 | <danso> | that, or use unsafePerformIO ;^) |
| 22:23:03 | <danso> | but i can live with that |
| 22:23:13 | <danso> | thanks to everyone who contributed, this has been interesting |
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| 22:25:57 | <dminuoso> | danso: Dont be afraid of using IO. |
| 22:26:19 | <dminuoso> | It's very normal to structure large parts in IO, but calling pure code from that IO spine. |
| 22:26:40 | <dminuoso> | Wide access to IO lets you do stuff like logging more keeping mutable references around more easily |
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| 22:27:29 | <dminuoso> | GHC has IO present everywhere, even in the simplifier. But most passes actually have the type `Core -> Core`, so GHC embeds them with something like: |
| 22:27:36 | <dminuoso> | doPass :: (CoreProgram -> CoreProgram) -> ModGuts -> CoreM ModGuts |
| 22:27:58 | <dminuoso> | Which lifts this pure function into the (impure) simplifier. |
| 22:28:41 | <dminuoso> | The logging alone should make you want IO present in large parts. :p |
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