Logs on 2021-06-08 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:02:21 | <blankhart> | when this paper (https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3371121) says that "guessing the right answer is typical of declarative type systems" what precisely is meant by "guess"? |
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| 01:04:30 | <blankhart> | the paper is talking about guessing in recursive binding groups and adding kinds to a context before looking at the related declarations |
| 01:06:32 | <cdsmith> | Yes, I suppose it just means that the declarative specification of the type system cannot be interpreted as an algorithm, or used as an implementation, because you need to know what the kinds are before you can evaluate the claims there. |
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| 01:07:35 | <blankhart> | is the point that in "algorithmic type systems" a unification variable is used but in a declarative system the kind is "guessed" in the sense of being solved by whatever algorithm implements the system? |
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| 01:11:15 | <cdsmith> | I'm not sure of the details here, sorry. Maybe someone else can help more! |
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| 01:15:59 | <ski> | blankhart : i think "guess" means that there's no way to order the premises, viewed as (calls to) relations that compute outputs from inputs, in such a way that every (meta-)variable is output before it needs to be input (considering the inputs of the conclusion relation as "initial inputs", and the corresponding outputs as "final outputs") |
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| 01:19:38 | <blankhart> | so, for starters, we don't mean "guess" in the sense of something that might be wrong. it is more like, we consult an oracle that tells us what the answer would be if we had a constraint solving algorithm? |
| 01:20:14 | <cdsmith> | Yes, "consult an oracle" sounds like exactly what they mean. |
| 01:20:23 | <ski> | i believe that's the idea, yes |
| 01:21:08 | <blankhart> | thanks both |
| 01:21:28 | <ski> | (having some knowledge of logic programming is relevant here) |
| 01:22:52 | <blankhart> | well haskell is declarative, so i was trying to think of an analogy with mutually recursive let bindings, but couldn't really get one that i would describe as involving "guessing" |
| 01:24:23 | <ski> | well, the "declarative" in "declarative typing rules" isn't really related to the one in "declarative programming paradigm" |
| 01:25:14 | <cdsmith> | Well, in some sense recursive let bindings present a similar issue, in that there could be multiple values that satisfy the system of equations. But we also have an algorithmic interpretation involving least fixed points in the definedness order. So that's the sense in which Haskell is more "algorithmic" and not purely "declarative" in the paper's usage of the words. |
| 01:26:13 | <ski> | yes, recursive `let' also needs "guessing" in the same sense |
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| 01:27:32 | <blankhart> | that was the missing piece thank you |
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| 01:30:43 | <ski> | (btw, i think i've heard the term "guess" even used in situations like e.g. the typing rule for function application, in that there's a (meta-)variable that occurs in the premises, that doesn't appear in the conclusion, and so, if you're attempting to build a typing derivation tree, from the root, you'd have to "guess" the argument type, when coming to an application. this corresponds to viewing all |
| 01:30:49 | <ski> | (judgement) relation parameters as "input". however, at least in a typing (as opposed to a more general derivation, or logic programming, context) context, i think it's common to consider them as having both input and output parameters. cf. bidirectional type checking) |
| 01:31:58 | <ski> | (for comparision, for deductive databases, all parameters would be considered "output", as the derivation tree is built bottom-up (rather than top-down), from the leaves/facts (rather than from the root/goal)) |
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| 01:37:08 | <blankhart> | algorithmically interpreted as call by need, call by value, call by...both |
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| 01:39:59 | <blankhart> | so the point of a "syntax-directed |
| 01:40:02 | <ski> | hm ? |
| 01:40:23 | <blankhart> | " declarative specification is that it is also algorithmic in that there is no need to guess? |
| 01:40:45 | <ski> | not sure of a relation to the call-by-* stuff |
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| 01:43:03 | <ski> | blankhart : i'd say it's not that simple. i think syntax-directed would mean that there's only one (or maybe at most a few ?) rules to consider / choose from, given the term (or whatever one is syntax-directed wrt) as an input. but there could still be other (meta-)variables that would need to be "guessed", in the application of the selected rule |
| 01:44:02 | ski | . o O ( attribute grammars ) |
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| 01:52:27 | <blankhart> | thank you ski i will think more about that |
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| 03:11:18 | <guest61> | ski, dminuoso https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/W9DG6yNQjj/ |
| 03:11:59 | <guest61> | this is what yesterday code change to |
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| 03:13:10 | <guest61> | using IO a as b in maybe is neat |
| 03:13:19 | <guest61> | :t maybe |
| 03:13:20 | <lambdabot> | b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b |
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| 03:14:07 | <guest61> | maybe turn Maybe a to IO a, interesting |
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| 06:44:27 | <xsperry> | guest61, pattern match would probably be nicer than null/head. args <- getArgs case args of [fileName] -> … _ -> … |
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| 07:01:24 | <dminuoso> | guest61: By the way, this is not how parser combinators are intended to be used. :) |
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| 07:50:33 | <guest61> | dminuoso you mean I should parse and return a map not a list? |
| 07:51:43 | <dminuoso> | Or better yet, straight the Config itself. |
| 07:52:26 | <dminuoso> | Consider using a big record `data Config = Config { cfgMode :: Mode, cfgUser :: String, cfgPassword :: String, cfgPort :: Int }` |
| 07:52:35 | <dminuoso> | And have your parser build up that Config |
| 07:52:47 | <dminuoso> | If there's settings that are allowed to be optional, use `Maybe` |
| 07:55:14 | <guest61> | dminuoso https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/BpdDdZCxP4/ |
| 07:56:37 | <guest61> | dminuoso I did return a tuple |
| 07:56:57 | <dminuoso> | The paste is incomplete, then |
| 07:57:07 | <guest61> | (a,b) is tuple? pair? how you call it? |
| 07:57:08 | <dminuoso> | Either way, the point is that the parser itself return that data structure |
| 07:57:20 | <dminuoso> | tuple, 2-tuple, pair |
| 07:57:22 | <dminuoso> | Either works |
| 07:58:39 | <guest61> | print r3 -- Right [Just ("a","b")] |
| 07:58:47 | <boxscape> | (if we were strictly following the "n-tuple" nomenclature it'd be "double" but no one says that) |
| 07:59:16 | <dminuoso> | Personally I say <n>-tuple |
| 07:59:26 | <guest61> | dminuoso parser shouldn't return data structure? what's the right way to do? |
| 07:59:35 | <dminuoso> | The parser should, but consider using a data type for it. |
| 07:59:41 | <dminuoso> | Let me give you some sketch |
| 08:02:34 | <dminuoso> | guest61: https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/d4e8fc5fa0c647a6fd1bfa342614b840 |
| 08:02:36 | <dminuoso> | Something along these lines |
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| 08:04:36 | <guest61> | dminuoso oh, you use a data structure instead of a map |
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| 08:09:53 | <dminuoso> | Yes. |
| 08:10:30 | <dminuoso> | This leads to more robust code, because you can for one have varying types as content, and the field names are pre-known. |
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| 08:10:54 | <dminuoso> | maps are better suited for when the associations are known only at runtime |
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| 08:12:36 | <boxscape> | (Oh, the wikipedia page on "tuple" also gives the word "couple" for the 2-tuple, but I've never heard that one being used either) |
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| 08:13:25 | <guest61> | boxscape so there is triple? |
| 08:13:35 | <boxscape> | triple is sometimes used, yes |
| 08:14:09 | <boxscape> | (as in, for example, the "Kleisli triple") |
| 08:14:22 | <guest61> | english is weird, once, twice, thrice, what about fourice? fivice? no |
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| 08:14:41 | <boxscape> | heh to be fair I think a lot of languages have special cases for small numbers |
| 08:14:44 | <guest61> | couple triple, fourple? |
| 08:14:55 | <c_wraith> | English is fine when you realize it isn't one language. It's about 30 mashed together |
| 08:15:09 | <siraben> | Is there a `transpose` equivalent for Data.Vector? |
| 08:15:21 | <siraben> | I need it to behave the same as List's transpose |
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| 08:16:30 | <dminuoso> | Shouldn't it be fove and fice? |
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| 08:17:12 | <guest61> | look at prince and price, what's the related? |
| 08:17:39 | <maerwald> | being prince is priceless |
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| 08:20:38 | <guest61> | finance and fiance, what's the related? |
| 08:21:15 | <keltono> | who let my dad into #haskell? :P |
| 08:21:51 | <c_wraith> | I'm not sure "similar spelling => similar meaning" holds in any language |
| 08:22:05 | <maerwald> | guest61: that isn't really a hard one... |
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| 08:22:23 | <tdammers> | all languages are weird when it comes to counting and numbers |
| 08:23:01 | <guest61> | even the word haskell, h ask ell, permutation it, one would be hell ask or ask hell? |
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| 08:23:05 | [exa] | remembers french 90s |
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| 08:23:36 | tomsmeding | . o O ( 4 * 20 + 19 ) |
| 08:23:49 | <tdammers> | German, for example, has special words for eleven and twelve (like English), but from thirteen on, it's regular. French has special words up to 16 (seize). Spanish has much the same, but only up to 15. |
| 08:24:05 | <tdammers> | and yeah, four-twenty ten-nine |
| 08:24:27 | <tdammers> | the history of all that is interesting |
| 08:24:31 | <tomsmeding> | tdammers: and Dutch has up to 14 :) |
| 08:25:02 | <tdammers> | tomsmeding: I'd argue that Dutch only has truly special words up to 12, just like German and English; the ones above are "calcified" versions of regular ones |
| 08:25:10 | <[exa]> | like, it's an improvement since MCMXLXXXX or what |
| 08:25:11 | <tomsmeding> | fair |
| 08:25:19 | <tdammers> | "veertien" is just "vier-tien" that didn't get the spelling memo |
| 08:26:33 | <[exa]> | (now, please allow me to steer this conversation to the related comprehension of time intervals that depend on planet rotation) |
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| 08:27:30 | <c_wraith> | Romans didn't even use the super-formalized system we credit them with. they'd be just as happy to write 4 as IIII as IV |
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| 08:30:34 | <tomsmeding> | guest61: I dare bet your language has the same issue with words that look much alike but mean something very different :) |
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| 08:32:16 | <dminuoso> | guest61: One of things I learned to love, is making data types. Many data types. |
| 08:32:27 | <dminuoso> | You can never have enough data types and newtypes in your program. |
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| 08:33:47 | <tdammers> | c_wraith: yes, and they'd be equally happy to use the C symbol to mean "a troop of ideally 100 soldiers, but realistically probably a good bit smaller" |
| 08:34:00 | <tdammers> | they were quite pragmatic |
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| 08:35:00 | <tdammers> | in a similar fashion, their "distance" units (Roman miles) were really more like travel time estimates, and most of their maps would mark not distances, but how many days it would take someone to walk |
| 08:35:37 | <guest61> | dminuoso that senior haskell expert always define some date types I can't understand |
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| 08:41:01 | <guest61> | f a = wrap (g 0# (unwrap a)) what's # meaning here? |
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| 08:41:39 | <guest61> | g :: forall a# . (Num# a#, Unwrap a ~ a#) => a# -> a# -> a# |
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| 08:41:46 | <guest61> | what 's # here? |
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| 08:42:29 | <c_wraith> | part of identifiers/literals |
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| 08:43:18 | <guest61> | consume :: a %m -> () what's % here? |
| 08:43:28 | <tomsmeding> | the # in a# and Num# is just part of the name; 0# is an unboxed int literal |
| 08:43:28 | <tomsmeding> | e |
| 08:43:46 | <tomsmeding> | but putting a # in names is usually meant to indicate that the thing is an unboxed type |
| 08:43:46 | <guest61> | dupBool = dup @Bool what's @here? |
| 08:44:02 | <tomsmeding> | the % is a linear type indication, that's very recent and new |
| 08:44:07 | <tomsmeding> | the @ is a type application |
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| 08:45:02 | <guest61> | is there an actuall type called Type? |
| 08:45:09 | <guest61> | @hoogle Type |
| 08:45:10 | <lambdabot> | Data.Kind type Type = Type |
| 08:45:10 | <lambdabot> | module GHC.Exception.Type |
| 08:45:10 | <lambdabot> | GHC.Exts data TYPE (a :: RuntimeRep) |
| 08:45:15 | <tomsmeding> | there is a _kind_ called Type |
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| 08:45:58 | <guest61> | type Code () = '['[]] what's the ' meaning? |
| 08:46:07 | <guest61> | it's valid? |
| 08:46:11 | <tomsmeding> | TYPE is something completely different than Type and has to do with runtime representations of data, e.g. with unboxed types; I'm not sure there |
| 08:46:51 | <tomsmeding> | the ' is to disambiguate between term-level names and names resulting from lifting with DataKinds |
| 08:47:26 | <tomsmeding> | [], [1], [1,2] are term-level lists |
| 08:47:53 | <tomsmeding> | [] on the type level is a "type function" with kind Type -> Type |
| 08:48:06 | <tomsmeding> | [a] on the type level is a type, of lists of a's |
| 08:48:32 | <boxscape> | % :i Data.Kind.Type |
| 08:48:32 | <yahb> | boxscape: type Data.Kind.Type :: *; type Data.Kind.Type = TYPE 'LiftedRep; -- Defined in `GHC.Types' |
| 08:48:37 | <boxscape> | that's the relationship |
| 08:48:40 | <tomsmeding> | '[], '[1], '[1,2] are types of kind [Int] obtained by lifting using DataKinds |
| 08:48:46 | <guest61> | Maybe (a :~: b) what's this :~: mean? |
| 08:49:13 | <tomsmeding> | % :i (Data.Type.Equality.:~:) |
| 08:49:13 | <yahb> | tomsmeding: type role (:~:) nominal nominal; type (:~:) :: forall {k}. k -> k -> *; data (:~:) a b where; Refl :: forall {k} (a :: k). (:~:) a a; -- Defined in `Data.Type.Equality'; infix 4 :~:; instance forall k (a :: k) (b :: k). Eq (a :~: b) -- Defined in `Data.Type.Equality'; instance forall k (a :: k) (b :: k). Ord (a :~: b) -- Defined in `Data.Type.Equality'; instance forall k (a :: k) (b :: k). (a ~ b) => |
| 08:49:16 | <guest61> | so many symbols I never seen |
| 08:49:22 | <boxscape> | guest61 it's a proof that a and b are equal types |
| 08:49:28 | <guest61> | data type is so confused |
| 08:49:29 | <tomsmeding> | @src :~: |
| 08:49:29 | <lambdabot> | Source not found. Are you typing with your feet? |
| 08:49:39 | <tomsmeding> | data a :~: b where Refl :: a :~: a |
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| 08:50:54 | <tomsmeding> | guest61: I do wonder: if you're not very familiar with all the ghc extensions to haskell yet, why are you looking at unboxed types, linear types, and DataKinds? |
| 08:51:12 | <tomsmeding> | I recommend getting more familiar with the language before venturing into the weeds :p |
| 08:51:25 | <guest61> | tomsmeding I just a follow a haskell guy |
| 08:51:28 | <tomsmeding> | assuming, of course, that it confuses and annoys you |
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| 08:52:20 | <guest61> | newtype a -&> b = Hyp {invoke :: (b -&> a) } what a symbol... |
| 08:52:49 | <tomsmeding> | you're not talking about edward kmett, are you? |
| 08:52:51 | <guest61> | I hear there's some liquid types |
| 08:53:06 | <boxscape> | we're still working on gaseous types, though |
| 08:53:12 | <guest61> | tomsmeding no, it's Haskell_jack |
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| 08:53:36 | <tomsmeding> | liquid types is an external GHC plugin that adds some kind of strong verification of Haskell code using an SMT solver |
| 08:53:44 | <tomsmeding> | well, Liquid Haskell it's called |
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| 08:53:54 | <guest61> | refinement type |
| 08:54:16 | <tomsmeding> | boxscape: do we have solid types down, then? :p |
| 08:54:25 | <boxscape> | I'd say we have a solid grasp |
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| 09:01:37 | <guest61> | :t maybe |
| 09:01:38 | <lambdabot> | b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b |
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| 09:02:40 | <guest61> | if b ~ IO a, then this maybe could change Maybe a to IO a, there's a name call this transform, what's its name? I forget it |
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| 09:03:01 | <dminuoso> | guest61: Id call it `note` |
| 09:03:21 | <guest61> | @hoogle note |
| 09:03:22 | <lambdabot> | Criterion.IO.Printf note :: CritHPrintfType r => String -> r |
| 09:03:22 | <lambdabot> | Control.Error.Util note :: a -> Maybe b -> Either a b |
| 09:03:22 | <lambdabot> | Protolude note :: MonadError e m => e -> Maybe a -> m a |
| 09:04:16 | <boxscape> | what would such a function do? |
| 09:04:42 | <guest61> | dminuoso maybe change the context, that's new to me |
| 09:05:25 | <guest61> | I could do Maybe a to IO (Maybe a), but it do IO a, amazing |
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| 09:06:29 | <tomsmeding> | guest61: to do that using 'maybe' you have to give a default value in case the input is Nothing |
| 09:06:40 | <guest61> | like put a bunch Maybe a into a [], then use fromJust to get [a], but funciton like this could turn Maybe a -> [a], amazing! |
| 09:06:44 | <tomsmeding> | and of course if you have such a default value, it's not very surprising anymore |
| 09:06:52 | <dminuoso> | guest61: If you follow my approach, you wont even need it. |
| 09:07:15 | <guest61> | dminuoso which approach? |
| 09:07:21 | <boxscape> | :t catMaybes |
| 09:07:22 | <lambdabot> | [Maybe a] -> [a] |
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| 09:31:52 | <dminuoso> | guest61: Check my gist earlier |
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| 09:39:15 | <Toast52> | hello, does anyone know about linking windows apis? |
| 09:39:40 | <Toast52> | do you need the windows 10 sdk for the header files? or can you just write your own header files |
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| 09:40:31 | <Toast52> | and is linking simply adding the extra-lib-dirs flag to your cabal config file |
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| 09:40:59 | <Toast52> | to the winapi dll directory |
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| 09:53:13 | <maerwald> | Toast52_: no idea, but did you check https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Win32-2.12.0.0/Win32.cabal |
| 09:53:32 | <maerwald> | they just add some stuff to extra-libraries... I'm not sure if that's from msys2 or whatnot |
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| 09:57:12 | <Toast52_> | I took a peek at the openglraw package to see how they did it |
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| 09:59:25 | <Toast52_> | ok it looks like extra-libraries is the correct place to put it |
| 09:59:38 | fendor_ | is now known as fendor |
| 09:59:48 | <fendor> | is Hackage UI down? :O |
| 10:00:10 | <Toast52_> | does GHC know to search %PATH% for dlls? |
| 10:01:18 | <maerwald> | Toast52_: I think PATH affects where dlls are searched on windows, yes |
| 10:01:33 | <maerwald> | which is one of the reasons msys2 installations don't set path |
| 10:01:38 | <maerwald> | otherwise hell breaks loose |
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| 10:02:07 | <Torro> | fendor: hackage.haskell.org? |
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| 10:02:19 | <fendor> | Torro, yeah |
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| 10:03:05 | <Torro> | fendor: fastly is having issues; see python.org and reddit.com, same issue |
| 10:03:35 | <fendor> | ok, thanks! |
| 10:04:41 | <Torro> | np |
| 10:04:46 | <Toast52_> | damn |
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| 10:09:30 | <Torro> | liskin: /whois liskin |
| 10:09:35 | <Torro> | oops, sorry |
| 10:11:14 | <Torro> | saw your msg in #xmonad, wanted to check if you're in #haskell as well. Apologies |
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| 10:50:26 | <amirouche> | hello, I am trying to go through this article: https://rubenpieters.github.io/programming/haskell/2019/07/09/animation-dsl-1.html |
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| 10:50:47 | <amirouche> | I am wondering if they are similar approaches to drive a whole web page? |
| 10:50:55 | <amirouche> | Is that what people call FRP? |
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| 10:52:35 | <amirouche> | related to that there is also http://conal.net/papers/functional-images/fop-conal.pdf |
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| 10:55:36 | <liskin> | Torro: I am here, but it's too high-traffic for me to read it, so if something needs my attention, a highlight is necessary |
| 10:57:12 | <amirouche> | maybe easier question is: how to create a frontend app with haskell? |
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| 11:00:29 | <Toast52_> | are you asking about techniques? or tools |
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| 11:02:11 | <sshine> | amirouche, here is one tutorial using Asterius: https://www.tweag.io/blog/2019-12-19-asterius-diagrams/ |
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| 11:05:46 | <amirouche> | re techniques or tools: both. |
| 11:05:52 | <amirouche> | looking at asterius |
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| 11:06:05 | <sshine> | amirouche, yes, FRP is thought of being a good paradigm for front-end. this is what PureScript's Halogen framework uses... |
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| 11:06:37 | <sshine> | amirouche, reactive program is currently very popular in front-end (React, Vue, etc.) so FRP is the cherry on top. |
| 11:08:22 | <sshine> | amirouche, but this is more of a front-end framework question. if you're asking "how to do haskell in the front-end", that's still a bit researchy, I think... GHCJS, Asterius, ... |
| 11:09:38 | <amirouche> | I know about React. What I am looking for a DSL to describe an interactive program in a non-imperative way. |
| 11:10:29 | <amirouche> | In particular, how to create animations in a declarative way, and how to handle events such as click, and also xhr kind of stuff. |
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| 11:11:32 | <amirouche> | wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_reactive_programming) mention The Reactive and Etage libraries. |
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| 11:13:17 | <amirouche> | that https://hackage.haskell.org/package/reactive |
| 11:13:40 | <amirouche> | by the original author of C. Elliot (above fop-conal.pdf) |
| 11:14:17 | <sshine> | you can find some interesting FRP libraries in Haskell, but they don't necessarily bridge to a front-end web library. |
| 11:14:43 | <amirouche> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Etage |
| 11:15:07 | <sshine> | https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/ajxq3a/how_can_i_best_learn_functional_reactive/ |
| 11:15:20 | <amirouche> | sshine: no worries, I will bridge the gap, I am working with Scheme / Kernel (!) anyway, I am looking for ideas more than readily useable code. |
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| 11:18:54 | <amirouche> | eventually, what I have in mind is given the description of a frontend app compile to html with js and html without js (and then see how this can work with non browser targets) |
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| 11:23:32 | <amirouche> | haskell websites are very stylish (compared to Scheme) |
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| 11:29:30 | <tdammers> | sshine: Halogen isn't actually FRP. It's functional, it's reactive, but it's not FRP in the true sense - most importantly, it does not have Behaviors (continuous or quasi-continuous time signals), only Events (discrete signals) |
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| 11:29:53 | <tdammers> | which is fine, you don't actually need continuous time in a web GUI most of the time |
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| 11:32:11 | <sshine> | tdammers, that reminds me of https://elm-lang.org/news/farewell-to-frp -- and https://www.fatalerrors.org/a/using-mvvm-design-pattern-in-django.html |
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| 11:35:24 | <maerwald> | The only interesting thing about FRP for me is that it allows wildly different codebase structure compared to e.g. callback-driven architecture. But that's not enough to get me sold on the idea, especially since there are many competing approaches, each of them having hard problems |
| 11:36:16 | <tdammers> | sshine: ugh, that terrible thing |
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| 11:36:56 | <dminuoso> | I like how the elm webpage doesn't display anything when JS is disabled., |
| 11:37:11 | <tdammers> | that's par for the course for a frontend framework |
| 11:37:14 | <dminuoso> | To me this communicates lack of web competence.. :-> |
| 11:37:29 | <tdammers> | but that article? urgh. Elm has never been FRP, not before the Elm Architecture, nor after |
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| 11:37:45 | <tdammers> | but Evan didn't understand FRP when he built Elm, and called it that even though it wasn't |
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| 11:38:21 | <maerwald> | dminuoso: the haskell foundation web page is broken without js too |
| 11:38:35 | <maerwald> | only very few websites these days can deliver that |
| 11:38:53 | <tdammers> | mine can |
| 11:38:58 | <tdammers> | as a matter of principle |
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| 11:39:19 | <maerwald> | github can to a degree, which is astonishing |
| 11:39:25 | <dminuoso> | I dont expect the entire webpage to work, but at least some rudimentary things.. |
| 11:39:39 | <dminuoso> | Even if it displays some meaningful error message, that's acceptable |
| 11:39:39 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: https://paste.tomsmeding.com works without js, though without multi-file |
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| 11:40:07 | tomsmeding | feels cool |
| 11:40:21 | <boxscape> | funny, back in the day using javascript was the cool thing |
| 11:40:33 | <maerwald> | https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/ sigh... why does it now work without js |
| 11:40:38 | <maerwald> | my html skills are terrible |
| 11:41:39 | <boxscape> | oh haskellfoundation.org is the wong website, eh |
| 11:41:44 | <boxscape> | s/wong/wrong |
| 11:41:50 | <maerwald> | There is a <noscript> section, but it doesn't shot up, lol |
| 11:42:00 | <maerwald> | gg |
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| 12:08:35 | <sshine> | oh man, my homepage used to work fine without javascript. what happened to my priorities. |
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| 12:12:59 | <maerwald> | extra-path-prog/extra-include-dirs/extra-lib-dirs in cabal.config invalidates the entire store??? |
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| 12:19:32 | <merijn> | Sounds likely |
| 12:20:37 | maerwald | sobs |
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| 12:22:30 | <mastarija> | What is the current status of cross compilation? In particular, ARM / Android. |
| 12:22:42 | <trueboxguy> | the Haskell foundation page is https://haskell.foundation for those interested |
| 12:22:47 | <mastarija> | I've found some oldish posts form zw3rk, but nothing recent |
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| 12:24:48 | <sshine> | mastarija, was it older or newer than this? https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20200515-ghc-on-arm.html |
| 12:25:09 | <mastarija> | Older, I think 2019 |
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| 12:25:35 | <maerwald> | mastarija: that's basically Moritz, who's the primary guy working on ARM support |
| 12:26:23 | <maerwald> | mastarija: there's also a Arming Cardano telegram group where people try to (cross-)compile cardano for ARM |
| 12:26:44 | <mastarija> | I've been wanting to write a game for android, I know keera studios had some working examples, but they are closed source. |
| 12:27:22 | <jonathanx> | I'm considering moving from stack to nix + cabal in order to get binary caches & mixins (for alternate preludes). Anything I need to know about using stack vs cabal with nix? Most info I can find is 3-5 years old. |
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| 12:28:29 | <jonathanx> | I've read that I'll need to set up --file-watch manually, and that the errors might be less than helpful, but other than that? Is there a best practice for what tooling to use with nix? |
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| 12:32:03 | <angerman> | mastarija: cross compilation is still a bit of an issue outside of nix. It’s pretty annoying. But possible. |
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| 12:32:36 | <angerman> | mastarija: instructions on my blog should still apply. The codegen should be substantially improved since then though. |
| 12:32:38 | <mastarija> | angerman, I've been hearing that nix helps with cross compilation, but I don't really understand how? |
| 12:33:05 | <mastarija> | angerman, can I get a link? :D |
| 12:33:05 | <maerwald> | You just need a distro that can give you a native arm toolchain, that's all |
| 12:33:07 | <angerman> | mastarija: nix abstracts away all the cross toolchain setup and management. |
| 12:33:17 | <maerwald> | you can do the same with, say, exherbo, if you wanted |
| 12:33:40 | <angerman> | maerwald: yes. Cabal-install is just so god awful 3-) |
| 12:33:41 | <mastarija> | angerman, so it just sets up a toolchain the right way? |
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| 12:34:23 | <angerman> | mastarija: yes and takes care of building and supplying Setup.hs (think low level cabal install) with the appropriate flags. |
| 12:35:01 | <angerman> | maerwald: don’t get me wrong I don’t want nix. But the way forward is to make ghc Multi target and then add logic to cabal-install |
| 12:35:35 | <maerwald> | let's see where cabal-install is headed |
| 12:35:38 | <angerman> | We could start teaching cabal-install about build and target GHCs as separate executables now? But omg it’s all so awful. |
| 12:35:52 | <mastarija> | I started playing with nixos, but from what I understand, someone still has to set up all the toolchain stuff. By saying "nix takes car" we are really saying "it makes it easyer for me to set things up and keep them that way"? |
| 12:36:09 | <angerman> | The most pressing issue right now is to make cross compilers plugin aware. |
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| 12:38:15 | <maerwald> | "I started playing with nixos"... yeah, that's what most ppl do and then give up at some point :p |
| 12:38:36 | <mastarija> | maerwald, I started "for the second time" ;) |
| 12:39:06 | <maerwald> | those who don't give up will become prophets |
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| 12:39:23 | <mastarija> | I kind of want to finish my "crossplatform" screenshot library. Right now it's finished for Windows, but I want to add X11 and Wayland support |
| 12:39:35 | <mastarija> | So a good reason to get back into linux and NixOS |
| 12:39:38 | <mastarija> | :D |
| 12:40:01 | <maerwald> | so I can do screenshots from haskell code? |
| 12:40:06 | <mastarija> | Yes |
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| 12:40:15 | <mastarija> | Without downloading a whole hackage in the process |
| 12:40:15 | <maerwald> | without the user knowing? |
| 12:40:21 | <maerwald> | and then upload them to my server? |
| 12:40:23 | <maerwald> | Nice |
| 12:40:33 | <mastarija> | That part's up to you :D |
| 12:41:02 | <maerwald> | haskell spyware :p |
| 12:41:25 | <mastarija> | Yes. It started as an idea for monitoring tool |
| 12:41:52 | <mastarija> | I have a few pain in the ass clients, that unfortunatelly pay too well, and they want to watch me code :D |
| 12:42:33 | <maerwald> | creeps... |
| 12:43:10 | <mastarija> | Fuck it, I'm an e-whore, gimme that cahs :D |
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| 13:01:35 | <kuribas> | how do I turn some warning in an error? |
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| 13:03:36 | <kuribas> | nvm, found it :) |
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| 13:03:58 | <kuribas> | -Werror=missing-fields |
| 13:04:13 | <kuribas> | IMO that should have been an error by default... |
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| 13:06:23 | <tomsmeding> | is that the warning for missing entries when constructing a record? I recently found out that _is_ an error for strict fields |
| 13:06:31 | <kuribas> | yes |
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| 13:06:40 | <kuribas> | ah right, so I have to make my fields strict :) |
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| 13:14:22 | <amirouche> | re FRP, that is the problem I set myself to tackle (without a particular timeframe) |
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| 13:16:38 | <amirouche> | Really, what I want is describe side-effects the GUI declaratively so that the compiler does have to guess hard what functions try to do. |
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| 13:23:00 | <amirouche> | I guess I need to start building a DSL that make sense, then figure how to wire everything. |
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| 13:23:16 | <amirouche> | (that is a great teaching from the various haskell doc I read) |
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| 13:24:36 | <kuribas> | I wouldn't worry about the compiler until you actually have a performance problem |
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| 13:25:55 | <amirouche> | Another source of inspiration might be immediate mode gui such: dear imgui (https://github.com/ocornut/imgui) but it does not support animations |
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| 14:16:03 | <guest61> | I saw there's only ghc arm version on debian 9, why not latest? |
| 14:16:15 | <guest61> | llvm9 |
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| 14:29:43 | <merijn> | guest61: Why not the latest llvm you mean? |
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| 14:46:00 | <guest61> | least debian I mean |
| 14:46:07 | <guest61> | latest |
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| 14:46:38 | <guest61> | I saw the wiki said llvm version is specific |
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| 14:47:27 | <merijn> | That sounds more like a debian question, though? |
| 14:47:37 | <merijn> | They're the people making packages |
| 14:48:35 | <guest61> | haha |
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| 14:49:15 | <merijn> | There's a Debian 10 bindist on the GHC website, so clearly it runs |
| 14:49:21 | <guest61> | like ghc on archlinux, who should be blamed |
| 14:49:46 | <merijn> | ah, wait, the GHC bindist is x86_64. Not sure if there are ARM bindists atm? |
| 14:50:53 | <guest61> | archlinux always use dynamic libraries, and ghc use static libraries, so use ghc on archlinux very uncomfortable |
| 14:51:02 | <merijn> | Yeah |
| 14:51:24 | <merijn> | I feel there should be arm bindists, but I have no idea where. |
| 14:51:25 | <guest61> | so who should be blamed? |
| 14:51:40 | <merijn> | angerman: Do you know if/where arm bindists can be found? |
| 14:52:06 | <guest61> | https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20200515-ghc-on-arm.html |
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| 14:54:31 | <maerwald> | we have arm bindists |
| 14:55:22 | <maerwald> | https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/8.10.5/ghc-8.10.5-armv7-deb10-linux.tar.xz |
| 14:55:27 | <guest61> | also https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20210309-apple-m1-story.html |
| 14:55:33 | <maerwald> | https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/8.10.5/ghc-8.10.5-aarch64-apple-darwin.tar.xz |
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| 14:56:52 | <guest61> | aha |
| 14:57:14 | <guest61> | it's binary or source code? |
| 14:57:18 | <maerwald> | bindist |
| 14:57:26 | <maerwald> | ghcup also works on ARM |
| 14:57:33 | <guest61> | what does that mean? |
| 14:57:46 | <maerwald> | it's a tarball with binaries yes |
| 14:58:52 | <c_wraith> | literally an abbreviation of "binary distribution" |
| 14:58:57 | <guest61> | and there a cable arm ? |
| 14:59:24 | <maerwald> | yes |
| 14:59:42 | <guest61> | in this tarball? or other link? |
| 14:59:55 | <maerwald> | what arm distro are you on? |
| 15:00:26 | <guest61> | debian 10 rootfs version |
| 15:00:28 | <maerwald> | https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/ |
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| 15:04:38 | <guest61> | wait a sec, https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20200515-ghc-on-arm.html |
| 15:05:34 | <guest61> | does this meed to run ‘configure ...’? |
| 15:05:58 | <geekosaur> | so you can specify where to install it, and it can adapt to the system, yes |
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| 15:06:56 | <guest61> | First, we need to install LLVM 9 (which GHC uses for code generation on ARM): |
| 15:07:08 | <guest61> | so it needs llvm? |
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| 15:07:40 | <yushyin> | that's what is says |
| 15:07:43 | <yushyin> | it |
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| 15:09:23 | <guest61> | ok |
| 15:10:49 | <yushyin> | but why not just try ghcup and see if it works for you? |
| 15:11:20 | <guest61> | what is ghcup? |
| 15:11:30 | <guest61> | I only know stack and cable |
| 15:11:38 | <maerwald> | guest61: see the link above |
| 15:11:47 | <guest61> | that lsp stuff I don't know |
| 15:11:52 | <maerwald> | lsp? |
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| 15:12:47 | <guest61> | wait a sec, when this ghcup came? |
| 15:12:55 | <maerwald> | I don't know |
| 15:13:05 | <guest61> | language server protocol |
| 15:13:26 | <maerwald> | did you read what's in the web page? |
| 15:13:27 | <guest61> | for code autocomplete indent blabla |
| 15:13:33 | <guest61> | yes |
| 15:13:45 | <maerwald> | ok, so there's nothing about autocomplete, lsp or indent |
| 15:13:49 | <guest61> | check if it's available |
| 15:14:30 | <guest61> | But i remember there's a lsp stuff call this name very likely But i forget |
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| 15:17:15 | <guest61> | haskell-hie ghcide |
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| 15:17:58 | <maerwald> | those are different names |
| 15:18:00 | <geekosaur> | those are both out of date, hls is the current one |
| 15:19:41 | <guest61> | that hoogle guy, mitch? he is doing one? |
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| 15:22:12 | <guest61> | ghcid |
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| 15:23:19 | <guest61> | https://github.com/ndmitchell/ghcid |
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| 15:26:16 | <safinaskar> | good thread https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2021-June/134073.html |
| 15:26:25 | <safinaskar> | on reallyUnsafePtrEquality# |
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| 15:27:07 | <yushyin> | we certainly do know most of the tools you mentioned so far, but I do miss the point of all this. didn't you want to install ghc/cabal-install on ARM? |
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| 15:32:07 | <maerwald> | sorting vocabulary first, I guess |
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| 15:34:39 | <guest61> | yes, I ran the ghcup command , and it's installing |
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| 15:55:02 | ← | safinaskar parts (~user@109.252.90.89) () |
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| 15:59:07 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: ghcup wins again :) |
| 15:59:51 | <guest61> | what about stack? |
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| 16:05:05 | <raehik> | Years back there was a GHC plugin (framework?) named HERMIT. I want to have a go using it due to some handy SYB optimizations, but I can see it's no longer maintained |
| 16:05:55 | <raehik> | I can't find much help on using it. Anyone know about it & whether there'd be anything stopping me using it on GHC 8.x? |
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| 16:08:52 | <maerwald> | guest61: next ghcup release will allow to install stack too |
| 16:08:57 | <maerwald> | until then visit their website |
| 16:09:22 | <maerwald> | they have their own script that invokes sudo and whatnot :p |
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| 16:14:16 | <maerwald> | the #powershell channel has a bot that bridges IRC, discord and slack (not sure about matrix) |
| 16:15:06 | <maerwald> | ah: https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge |
| 16:15:11 | <maerwald> | maybe we need that too? |
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| 16:16:25 | <maerwald> | sm[m]: what do you think |
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| 16:24:19 | <safinaskar> | hi. i want to have cabal upper bounds like "< 3.4", as opposed to "< 3.4.5". is it ok to use "import Test.QuickCheck(Arbitrary(..))"? i. e. is it okey to import all class methods at once or i need to name them explicitly? |
| 16:26:22 | <ski> | guest61 : did you get around to take a look at <https://paste.tomsmeding.com/1AU9FcLc> ? |
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| 16:29:22 | <tomsmeding> | safinaskar: given that packages are supposed to follow the PVP, there aren't supposed to be breaking changes without changing the second version number. So in general I wouldn't expect many "< 3.4.5" constraints at all |
| 16:29:50 | <tomsmeding> | regarding importing all of a class: everyone does that :p |
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| 16:30:21 | <maerwald> | tomsmeding: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Win32-2.12.0.0/Win32.cabal |
| 16:30:46 | <maerwald> | I saw one today: hsc2hs:hsc2hs > 0 && < 0.68.6 || > 0.68.6 |
| 16:30:53 | <maerwald> | -- Black list hsc2hs 0.68.6 which is horribly broken. |
| 16:30:55 | <maerwald> | hehe |
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| 16:31:43 | <maerwald> | from the sound of it someone wasted at least half an hour on a bug |
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| 16:34:24 | <safinaskar> | tomsmeding: but -Wmissing-import-lists warns me about Arbitrary(..). it is ghc bug? |
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| 16:36:30 | <jippiedoe> | Not exactly a bug, but there's a reason why it's not enabled by -Wall |
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| 17:49:59 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: yep that sounds like a good debugging session there :p |
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| 19:14:39 | <amirouche> | no more hp, no more mana: I need to learn haskell. |
| 19:15:55 | <agumonke`> | unfaithful to sexp |
| 19:16:30 | <agumonke`> | you'll be reported to the scheme police and quoted for eternity |
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| 19:19:12 | <tomsmeding> | > repeat '\'' |
| 19:19:14 | <lambdabot> | "'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''... |
| 19:22:36 | <agumonke`> | > take 5 (repeat 5) |
| 19:22:38 | <lambdabot> | [5,5,5,5,5] |
| 19:22:42 | <agumonke`> | > take 5 (repeat ".") |
| 19:22:43 | <lambdabot> | [".",".",".",".","."] |
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| 19:34:38 | <ordinate> | good afternoon |
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| 19:43:03 | <safinaskar> | is it possible to use haskell and rust in same project without using c code between? |
| 19:43:57 | <safinaskar> | i want somehow directly convert rust's algebraic data types to haskell's ones and vice versa (at least for some simple types, such as Maybe) |
| 19:47:06 | <geekosaur> | no, it's not. and mixing different heaps is painful at best |
| 19:47:50 | <Ariakenom> | it will just be the C interface right, No actual C code? |
| 19:48:19 | <safinaskar> | geekosaur: thanks :( |
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| 19:48:41 | <geekosaur> | Ariakenom, that depends. I think foreign export writes C stubs |
| 19:49:14 | <safinaskar> | maybe there exists some hacky solution? for example, some small haskell subset, which allows conversion to rust? |
| 19:49:48 | <safinaskar> | i don't need compatibility with existing code. so, it is okey if rust will be no-quite-rust and haskell will be not-quite-haskell |
| 19:50:40 | <monochrom> | I wouldn't count on "without using C code" to mean it very literally. |
| 19:51:53 | <monochrom> | I would look for what's common between Haskell FFI and Rust FFI. |
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| 19:57:37 | <edmundnoble_> | I have some code, versions 1 and 2. Version 2 uses six times as much space and takes twice as long as version 1, according to criterion, the `-s` option, and top. I figured I'd try to narrow down the cause by using the profiler; but when I use profiling, version 1 and 2 both use almost the exact same amount of space, divided up in the same way |
| 19:57:41 | <edmundnoble_> | Does this observation at all narrow down the possible causes? Versions 1 and 2 should have the same performance by my reckoning |
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| 20:03:09 | <[exa]> | safinaskar: rust's types have much more defined memory representation, if you really want to do that, I suggest just passing through a pointer to a rust-style data structure and reading/reserializing it in haskell |
| 20:03:35 | <amirouche> | a pipe |
| 20:03:38 | <[exa]> | (in short, I'd much rather interpret rust data in haskell than haskell data in rust) |
| 20:03:59 | <[exa]> | also yes, unixy solutions are the best, thanks amirouche |
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| 20:06:04 | <safinaskar> | okey |
| 20:06:11 | <Ariakenom> | ... are either of them defined? |
| 20:06:29 | <safinaskar> | i still think that translator from subset of haskell to rust would be valuable project |
| 20:07:06 | <safinaskar> | it will allow combine haskell and rust in same project and get access to big rust package repo and get rust speed with haskell guarantees and beaty |
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| 20:07:14 | <[exa]> | safinaskar: that might be the ML languages. :D |
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| 20:07:43 | <[exa]> | check out CakeML, you might like that one |
| 20:07:52 | <safinaskar> | [exa]: ocaml has even fewer packages than haskell (and of course fewer than rust) |
| 20:07:56 | <tomsmeding> | edmundnoble_: and in absolute sense? Is the performance with profiling closer to the non-profiling version 1 or 2? |
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| 20:08:28 | <safinaskar> | [exa]: go open ocaml list of packages: https://opam.ocaml.org/packages/ . the page loads in one second on my computer |
| 20:08:29 | <edmundnoble_> | The performance with profiling is not directly comparable to that without profiling |
| 20:08:36 | <edmundnoble_> | It's several orders of magnitude slower |
| 20:08:41 | <edmundnoble_> | If that's what you mean |
| 20:08:50 | <safinaskar> | [exa]: compare this with http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/ |
| 20:08:55 | <[exa]> | safinaskar: well if you define a language by number of packages, you might as well check out NPM |
| 20:09:03 | <tomsmeding> | edmundnoble_: ah right |
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| 20:09:52 | <tomsmeding> | edmundnoble_: I expect that the difference between 1 and 2 is how much gets inlined where, and how much optimisations that triggers |
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| 20:10:22 | <safinaskar> | haskell and rust has enough packages. ocaml - not |
| 20:10:29 | <tomsmeding> | profiling adds instrumentation in lots of places, which affects (mostly prevents) inlining -- and that has a strong impact on performance |
| 20:11:10 | <dminuoso> | 21:57:33 safinaskar | [19:43:03] is it possible to use haskell and rust in same project without using c code between? |
| 20:11:14 | <dminuoso> | This is how .NET was born. :p |
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| 20:12:29 | <edmundnoble_> | Mmmkay, so profiling is preventing whatever optimization is responsible for version 1's performance, perhaps, and this optimization improves both space and time usage |
| 20:12:32 | <dminuoso> | This type of interoperability only works when the languages/reference implementations are under your control, so you can specify how that interop even means. |
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| 20:13:03 | <tomsmeding> | edmundnoble_: I'm not sure if that's it, but at least it's consistent with the observations you've written down here :p |
| 20:13:05 | <dminuoso> | For languages with very different semantics designed and controlled by different people, C FFI is the only thing you have since that gives you a well defined FFI that everybody else can target |
| 20:13:13 | <[exa]> | safinaskar: still, one could easily say that it is the rust-compatible subset of haskell |
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| 20:14:07 | <safinaskar> | [exa]: it seems cakeml doesn't have package repo at all. (i opened cakeml.org, then tried to find words "package" and "repo" using ctrl-f) |
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| 20:14:49 | <[exa]> | that's good |
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| 20:15:05 | <pavonia> | In parser combinators, how do you best deal with input like <start><message><end> where you only know at <end> how to parse the message? I would prefer to not have multiple look-ahead passes over the message to find the kind of <end> tag |
| 20:15:22 | <dolio> | Well, Rust could publish some kind of stable foreign interface other than the C one, but they don't. |
| 20:16:00 | <[exa]> | pavonia: if you can eat message as a bytestring or something and then parse it, I really suggest having 2-level parsing structure |
| 20:16:30 | <dolio> | I guess the question is what it would contain in addition to the C one that is worth it. |
| 20:16:55 | <edmundnoble_> | You will ultimately have multiple passes, pavonia, unless you parse it backwards I suppose |
| 20:17:33 | <[exa]> | that reminds me the cool paper on pika parsers that actually run backwards |
| 20:17:40 | <pavonia> | [exa]: By two levels you mean like tokenization and real parsing? |
| 20:18:36 | <[exa]> | not necessarily tokenization, but yeah, first take out the message raw, then parse it when you're sure where it should end |
| 20:19:48 | <[exa]> | safinaskar: anyway, why avoid C so much? it's going be somewhere in the way no matter what you'll do, unless you plan to rewrite significant portions of both languages' FFIs |
| 20:20:31 | <geekosaur> | not to mention the question of whether they both even represent something like "Maybe Int" the same way |
| 20:20:33 | <davean> | [exa]: to be fair, Haskell doesn't really care about Cness, it cares about ABI |
| 20:20:36 | <davean> | you can just match on that |
| 20:20:45 | <pavonia> | Hhm, I would need to somehow fake the starting position of the message string parsing then, I guess |
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| 20:23:06 | <Ariakenom> | geekosaur the answer is no |
| 20:23:21 | <geekosaur> | I figured as much |
| 20:24:20 | <[exa]> | davean: fair point |
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| 20:24:39 | <safinaskar> | [exa]: okey, let me describe my real task. i want to write prover. i could implement it either in haskell or in rust. but both methods has disadvantageous. Pure Haskell is bad, because sometimes i need ST monad and so I end up with *very* ugly ST monad code. Pure rust is bad, too, because it is too verbose. So I want somehow combine two langs in |
| 20:24:40 | <safinaskar> | same project. I want to pass algebraic data structures directly between langs. If it is not possible, then i would better simply stick to one language |
| 20:24:48 | <davean> | [exa]: The docs sure look C-ish! but thats kinda a side detail |
| 20:24:54 | <davean> | I bet rust can export C-ish |
| 20:24:57 | <davean> | and you can just match that |
| 20:25:03 | <davean> | I'm not saying its a "good" approach |
| 20:25:24 | <[exa]> | safinaskar: symbolic theorem prover or something more involved? |
| 20:25:25 | <safinaskar> | i want write most code in haskell and resort to rust in places where i overwise would use st monad |
| 20:25:42 | <safinaskar> | [exa]: i don't understand question |
| 20:25:54 | <[exa]> | "prover" is a pretty wide category of things |
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| 20:26:03 | <Ariakenom> | haskell: pointer to heap to maybe data which includes more than just the tag (also an info table). and then another pointer to int data that also has the same fluff |
| 20:26:07 | <safinaskar> | [exa]: i want to write proof checker with additional ability for trivial proof search |
| 20:26:14 | <dolio> | Is writing a ton of FFI and marshalling code really going to be less ugly than ST? |
| 20:26:28 | <orzo> | i'd like to see a low-level bootstrapped prover written in something like forth or assembly |
| 20:26:31 | <Ariakenom> | rust: stack allocated with a tag and an int. no pointers |
| 20:27:16 | <orzo> | safinaskar: ever consider that? |
| 20:27:53 | <orzo> | as a way of making code auditable |
| 20:28:14 | <davean> | orzo: audit assembly? I only know of us having a spec for ARM assembly :) |
| 20:28:25 | <davean> | orzo: They publish an XML file that defines transitions for their ASM |
| 20:28:33 | <davean> | but like we litterly guess at what x86 assembly does |
| 20:28:52 | <[exa]> | "mov always moved data right?" "right?" |
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| 20:29:18 | <davean> | And like ARM has that spec, but we don't believe the spec is right! |
| 20:29:27 | <davean> | we just believe we know where the error is when it doesn't behave that way |
| 20:31:07 | <[exa]> | safinaskar: so, for softwareengineering a solution for that, what if you (for a prototype, which you should do anyway) just serialize the data for a common format and use a normal FFI to call each other's functions? Rust can make a .o with callable symbols right? |
| 20:31:58 | <safinaskar> | [exa]: mov moves data right in at&t syntax and left in intel syntax... |
| 20:32:37 | <safinaskar> | [exa]: too much work, i will stick to one language |
| 20:33:19 | <davean> | safinaskar: well, lets assume machine code, because thats all just an encoding and we don't care about encoding :) |
| 20:34:07 | <safinaskar> | orzo: lean 4 prover's kernel is implemented in c++. rest of lean 4 implemented in lean itself |
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| 20:37:02 | <safinaskar> | pavonia: "I would need to somehow fake the starting position of the message string parsing then, I guess" - many parser lib allow this. i. e. actual function to run parser accepts argument meaning starting position |
| 20:40:18 | <safinaskar> | orzo: "ever consider that?" - no. you may like bootstrappable project ( https://bootstrappable.org/ ), in particular their haskell experiments ( https://elephly.net/posts/2017-01-09-bootstrapping-haskell-part-1.html ) |
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| 20:41:02 | <safinaskar> | orzo: or this subprojects: https://github.com/oriansj/stage0 https://www.gnu.org/software/mes/ |
| 20:42:05 | <davean> | safinaskar: wow, a guix reference in the wild, cool |
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| 20:43:45 | <safinaskar> | davean: i not sure this counts as "wild". i suspect set of authors of bootstrappable, stage0 and mes intersects with set of authors of guix |
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| 20:45:46 | <kw> | Is there a cabal equivalent to using a stack.yaml with `extra-deps: https://github.com/org/repo/archive/package.zip` ? |
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| 20:46:04 | <davean> | kw: yes I think if I understand what that means |
| 20:46:15 | <davean> | kw: you can reference alternative package sppliers in cabal.projects |
| 20:46:23 | <davean> | I do it quite a bit |
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| 20:48:05 | <kw> | davean: Oh, I see that in the docs for cabal.project using `source-repository-package` . Exactly what I need, thanks! |
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| 20:48:44 | <davean> | kw: great! I was guessing at the stack variant's meaning! :) |
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| 20:54:02 | <maerwald> | pantry has so much alternative syntax, it's weird |
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| 20:58:27 | <edmundnoble_> | Okay now my code is way faster with profiling enabled, argh |
| 20:59:38 | <edmundnoble_> | Maybe this is a good thing, and I should enable profiling in production... |
| 20:59:41 | <edmundnoble_> | ;) |
| 20:59:52 | <davean> | edmundnoble_: I mean thats fairly suggestive |
| 20:59:56 | <edmundnoble_> | It is??? |
| 21:00:08 | <davean> | Well, theres differences in how it compiles with profiling |
| 21:00:08 | <edmundnoble_> | Wonderful, what does it suggest? |
| 21:00:16 | <davean> | I expect you might have some bad rules, etc |
| 21:00:20 | <davean> | depending on what options you enabled |
| 21:00:25 | <edmundnoble_> | Hm |
| 21:00:38 | <edmundnoble_> | I have not written rewrite rules *but* my hot code touches Vector... |
| 21:00:52 | <davean> | have you tried different optimization levels when you build it? |
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| 21:01:09 | <davean> | profiling disables a bunch of optimizations effectively |
| 21:01:39 | <edmundnoble_> | I try with -O1 now, with no profiling, to test that |
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| 21:02:00 | <davean> | edmundnoble_: Its not like a direct answer, but its a strong smell of where to look |
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| 21:02:50 | <edmundnoble_> | Hm no dice, but I will look at the other things profiling does to my optimization flags |
| 21:03:46 | <edmundnoble_> | My only optimization options otherwise are `-fno-cse` and `-fno-full-laziness`, out of paranoia |
| 21:03:50 | <edmundnoble_> | And disabling them does nothing |
| 21:04:25 | <davean> | well, the thing I'd say about profiling is it often forces things to exist. |
| 21:04:56 | <davean> | specificly things that are annotated for profiling |
| 21:04:59 | <edmundnoble_> | To make SCC's more useful, I guess? So less inlining in some areas? |
| 21:05:03 | <davean> | yes |
| 21:05:27 | <dminuoso> | profiling makes TSOs larger too right? |
| 21:05:42 | <davean> | dminuoso: That shouldn't make performance increase though |
| 21:05:53 | <davean> | I'm focusing on what profiling improving performance suggests |
| 21:06:21 | <davean> | edmundnoble_: oh, and forcing things to exist changes evaluation order remember |
| 21:06:37 | <davean> | which you know can interact with laziness |
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| 21:27:56 | <sm[m]> | It's https://github.com/github/maintainerweek . Hug a maintainer today 😀 |
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| 21:53:51 | <Athas> | Hackage rejects packages that don't have upper bounds on base? How annoying. |
| 21:54:19 | <maerwald> | Athas: I work around it by doing `base < 100000` |
| 21:54:34 | <Athas> | Yes, I will do so as well. |
| 21:54:42 | <Athas> | Pointless busywork. |
| 21:54:55 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client) |
| 21:54:57 | <Athas> | And 'cabal check' didn't even say anything about it! |
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| 22:40:09 | <zwro[m]> | hi I'm on Matrix and a little confused. is this freenode or libera? |
| 22:40:20 | <Cajun> | libera |
| 22:40:45 | <zwro[m]> | it's libera, right? |
| 22:41:01 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 22:46:06 | <zwro[m]> | thanks. I'm noticing some lag |
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| 22:46:49 | <geekosaur> | I think the bridge is still in testing; it's laggy and it goes down fairly often |
| 22:46:54 | ← | zwro[m] parts (~zwromatri@2001:470:69fc:105::1d4) () |
| 22:47:05 | <geekosaur> | welp |
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| 22:52:51 | <sm[m]> | it will also sometimes stop relaying IRC to Matrix, but thankfully that doesn't seem to be affecting this channel much |
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| 23:48:07 | <jaevanko> | Is it possible to describe a function that takes a function as an argument that has a class bound on it? For example, like this: https://gotbits.net/di.hs |
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| 23:51:35 | <jaevanko> | Wait. That works if I add RankNTypes and jam a forall in there |
| 23:51:38 | <jaevanko> | Hmm :/ |
| 23:51:39 | <geekosaur> | you'd need a forall to introduce a class context in that position, otherwise you put it in the normal place |
| 23:52:43 | <jaevanko> | Is GHC able to inline the definition of lift' so it doesn't have to do dynamic dispatch on the passed in function? |
| 23:53:04 | <jaevanko> | I think that question was malformed |
| 23:56:01 | <jaevanko> | But if I define (+) in terms of that lift', would it have to pass in the typeclass dictionary, or could it optimize it to just dispatch on Value's tag? |
| 23:56:34 | <geekosaur> | I also suspect that doesn't quite do what you'd hoped, specifically because there's no way for it to relate the typeclass to the tag |
| 23:57:35 | <jaevanko> | How do you mean? |
| 23:58:02 | <geekosaur> | \hm, no, I misunderstood what you were doing there. I can't answer your question, either |
| 23:58:34 | <jaevanko> | Guess I'll just try it and squint at some Core |
All times are in UTC on 2021-06-08.