Logs on 2021-06-09 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:22:28	<slack1256>	If I define `newtype Supremum a b = MkS a deriving Eq` and I load that module on ghci, run `:info Supremum` that prints `instance (Eq a) => Eq (Supremum a)`. That instance context is implicitly declared on my `deriving` clause, is that part of the haskell report? Is that "smartness" specified somewhere?
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00:25:46	<jaevanko>	If you replace the `MkS a` with `MkS b`, would the instance bound change to Eq b?
00:27:08	<slack1256>	Yes. It seems it does some analysis.
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00:33:43	<geekosaur>	yes, this is defined in the Report
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00:34:33	<ski>	slack1256 : <https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/derived.html>
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00:34:49	<slack1256>	Thank god.
00:34:53	<geekosaur>	https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch11.html#x18-18300011.1
00:35:52	<slack1256>	This is awesome, I feel I can rely on such behaviour now!
00:36:18	<slack1256>	I was exploring if we should enable some kind of instance context specification on the deriving clauses :fear: .
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00:39:10	<ski>	slack1256 : you can write `deriving instance Eq a => Eq (Supremum a b)' as a separate declaration, if you enable `StandaloneDeriving'
00:41:16	<slack1256>	Got it.
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00:45:17	<slack1256>	TIL: `StandaloneDeriving` helps recover `stock` deriving for GADTs and have more specific instance context with stock deriving.
00:45:20	<slack1256>	Awesome stuff.
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03:25:42	<guest61>	ski yes I did, use case of instead of !! or use data structure
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03:36:14	<trent>	Hi everyone, I have started reading about GADTs and want to see if my intuition is correct about them. Are they basically used over standard unions as a way to do 'overloading' of a function's return type? Overloading in the sense of OOP method overloading.
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03:42:09	<glguy>	trent, I don't think they have much to do with OOP method overloading
03:43:42	<trent>	Damn, I was hoping thats all they were used for - to handle different return types
03:44:12	<trent>	What use are they then? I guess I have started reading about them before I have a use case
03:44:57	<monochrom>	The GHC user's guide has a very prototypical example.
03:47:12	<trent>	monochrom: The Term example? Thats where I thought I understood them in this way
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04:01:45	<c_wraith>	trent: if all you care about is returning multiple types, you can use regular data types to do that.
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04:02:55	<glguy>	trent, here's a little GADT example: https://bpa.st/FHHA
04:02:56	<trent>	Then I think I am not 'getting' the use of GADT's.
04:03:43	<glguy>	With GADTs you can constraint what types each constructor works at, and you can learn those constraints through pattern matching
04:04:03	<glguy>	parameterized data types no longer have to work for all possible instantiations of their parameters
04:04:27	<trent>	glguy: What does GADT give you in that example that you wouldnt get with a simple union type?
04:04:49	<glguy>	trent, change the example not to use a gadt
04:05:14	<glguy>	make it a simple union type and then fix the file and see where it goes
04:05:37	<glguy>	ideally you'll have a realization along the way where you get stuck :)
04:06:13	<glguy>	if not come back with questions, but it's a chance to figure some stuff out
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04:15:44	<trent>	glguy: thank you for that, I am working through it now.
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04:49:22	<guest61>	cabal and cabal-install are not same thing?
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04:49:47	<guest61>	I saw there are cabal and cabal-install in downloads.haskell.org
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05:01:27	<int-e>	guest61: There are two packages, Cabal (capital C) is a library that can be used to build stand-alone Setup programs, but is also used by the 'cabal-install' package that provides an executable called 'cabal'...
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05:04:10	<int-e>	historically, Cabal the library predates cabal the program by a few years, otherwise the package names would probably be different (say, cabal-lib and cabal)
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05:20:48	<arjun>	https://www.manning.com/books/haskell-in-depth, any reviews on this one people?
05:20:56	<arjun>	on the fence wether to buy
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05:30:28	<arjun>	hi Bartosz : P
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05:42:36	<Guest78>	hello all
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05:47:49	<Axman6>	Hello
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05:52:20	<guest61>	aha, compile ghc on arm successfully
05:52:28	<Axman6>	noice
05:53:57	<guest61>	by the way, there's an error in that configure file
05:54:23	<guest61>	gcc -V -qversion , those two parameters are invalid
05:55:28	<Axman6>	if it's the ghc configure file, this isn't really the place to report it, the GHC gitlab is probably a better place (perhaps asking in #ghc might help)
05:56:27	<guest61>	ok
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06:41:45	<dminuoso>	optics question. would you rather use `each %> someIx` or `traversed % someIx`? I cant for my life decide which one is better.
06:41:56	dminuoso	is bikeshedding quite hard here
06:42:20	<c_wraith>	is each anything like lens's each?
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06:43:36	<c_wraith>	ah, yes it is.
06:43:39	<dminuoso>	c_wraith: Yeah, except it's fixed to be an indexed traversal
06:43:57	<c_wraith>	I'd prefer traversed anywhere it works
06:44:44	<dminuoso>	c_wraith: The key difference is that in optics, `traversed` is a non-indexed traversal, and `each` gives a guaranteed indexed traversal.
06:45:04	<dminuoso>	And (%) forbids composition if both sides are indexed (requiring you to explicitly opt into <%> which (,)'s the indexes together
06:45:50	<c_wraith>	Each is the weird ad-hoc class that does whatever someone decided it should. I kind of don't like that.
06:46:04	<c_wraith>	well, there's itraversed
06:46:21	<c_wraith>	Not quite as universal as traversed, but it's a lot more obvious what it does
06:46:29	<dminuoso>	I guess the primary motivation of each is to support tuples
06:46:47	<dminuoso>	There's also the bit that `each` reads nicely in the optics DSL.. :p
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06:51:01	<dminuoso>	or well, I guess that's not entirely true. the index types get combined at the type level, but many combinators require only a single index
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06:51:26	<dminuoso>	(i.e. (%) allows composition just fine, but most of the time your optic must have only a single index type)
06:51:40	<dminuoso>	c_wraith: Yeah I guess.
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07:17:44	<siers>	can I use lens (in combo with th) to access the "a" which is inside all cases of a disjoint union? Simplest example "Either a a"
07:18:45	<dminuoso>	siers: use `failing`
07:19:17	<dminuoso>	Together with unsafeSingular you can even reconstruct a lens from this.
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07:20:31	<dminuoso>	% f :: Lens' (Either (Int, Char) (String, Int)) Int; f = unsafeSingular (_Left . _1 `failing` _Right . _2) -- siers
07:20:31	<yahb>	dminuoso:
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07:21:41	<siers>	nice
07:23:20	<siers>	I think unsafeSingular could be mentioned here then: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/36521208/how-to-make-the-product-of-two-lenses
07:23:22	<dminuoso>	(I guess you can even use `singular` here)
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07:24:12	<siers>	never mind, probably not
07:24:25	<dminuoso>	% f :: Lens' (Either (Int, Char) (String, Int)) Int; f = singular (_Left . _1 `failing` _Right . _2)
07:24:25	<yahb>	dminuoso:
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07:24:56	<dminuoso>	% Left (1, 'f') & f .~ 10
07:24:56	<yahb>	dminuoso: Left (10,'f')
07:25:04	<dminuoso>	% Right ("foo", 20) & f .~ 10
07:25:04	<yahb>	dminuoso: Right ("foo",10)
07:25:07	<siers>	nice
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07:26:03	<dminuoso>	Yeah, I make heavy use of this trick, as ugly as it is.
07:26:53	<siers>	why do you think it's ugly? :)
07:27:15	<siers>	because requires human proof?
07:27:18	<siers>	it*
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07:30:09	<dminuoso>	siers: It's rather, in the type algebra, it's very obvious and visible that this shouldnt even need proof.
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07:31:35	<dminuoso>	siers: Its the same thing with the article you mentioned
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07:33:34	<dminuoso>	Often I get away with just Folds instead, but if you stare at this, it makes you crave for a more fitting abstraction
07:33:35	<dminuoso>	https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/d73bf2520faf4e36d3168c8db789727a
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07:33:50	<siers>	you mean shouldn't need proof or should be possible to encode as a proof?
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07:36:05	<dminuoso>	siers: In my problem domain, at least with the representation I chose, sum types are sort of like diamonds. I constantly split them up (with say filteredBy), or I want to join them back together (with summing/unsafeSingular+failingT)
07:37:05	<dminuoso>	But there's no way to track "these prism-like things are disjoint" for example in the lens/optics ergonomics
07:37:14	<dminuoso>	You need manual human written proof
07:37:17	<dminuoso>	Every time.
07:37:26	<dminuoso>	Or you just shrug and pretend its alright
07:38:00	<siers>	right, but it's due to a language limitation? or could you technically encode that and carry it along in haskell?
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07:38:40	<dminuoso>	No idea, really. I just know this act of "splitting/joining sum types" doesnt fit well into lens/optics.
07:39:02	<siers>	gotcha
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07:44:19	<dminuoso>	The primitive I originally wanted, was some: partition :: (Is k An_AffineFold, Is l An_AffineFold) => Optic' k is a i -> Optic' l is a j -> IxAffineFold (Either i j) a a -- or some such.
07:45:23	<dminuoso>	But even this representation completely throws away the information, since you're back to square one with the index of (Either i j)
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07:47:42	<dminuoso>	And of course its unsafe already, since it demands proof that the provided affine folds are disjoint
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07:57:03	<mastarija>	Can't remember, how does one "install" a package globally so I can use it from ghci without having to create a project?
07:57:16	<mastarija>	I thought it was cabal install --lib random
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07:57:34	<Cajun>	last i recall it was `cabal install --lib PACKAGE`
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07:58:01	<mastarija>	Yes, that's what I tried, but ghci still can not find System.Random for some reason
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07:59:10	<mastarija>	Oh, I tried for a second time and now I get some error
07:59:17	<lortabac>	mastarija: you need to make the package visible in ghci
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07:59:28	<mastarija>	Yes, in that one file
07:59:33	<mastarija>	I'm gonna check now
08:00:03	<lortabac>	you can also do it interactively: :set -package PACKAGE_NAME
08:00:31	<merijn>	mastarija: --lib is at best in beta atm
08:00:49	<mastarija>	That's ok, I just wanted to try something out quickly
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08:01:21	<merijn>	mastarija: you can start ghci with a package in scope via "cabal repl --build-depends"
08:01:41	<merijn>	i.e. "cabal repl --build-depends random-x.y.z"
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08:02:31	<lortabac>	yes, merijn's suggestion is more reliable than mine
08:02:44	<dminuoso>	+1 to merijn's suggestion
08:02:50	<merijn>	Also less likely to make your life a pain later :p
08:03:25	<merijn>	"install --lib" is, effectively, the same as pinning all future build plans/installs to the package version you happen to install right now
08:03:37	<merijn>	Which, uh, is rather limiting
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08:05:32	<mastarija>	meh.. I just erase that pinning file every so often
08:05:52	<mastarija>	but yes, --build-depends work nicely
08:05:57	<mastarija>	Although it's a bit slow to load
08:06:06	<mastarija>	thanks merijn
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08:14:13	<merijn>	Should only be slow the first time, I think?
08:14:14	<dminuoso>	with `cabal install --lib` you very rapidly end up with failure to install anything further from experience.
08:14:24	<dminuoso>	It works for the first 1-2 packages, and then you cant install anything else.
08:14:28	<merijn>	It JIT installs the package you need, then loads it inside ghci
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08:14:45	<merijn>	If the package is already in the global store (after the first run) it can skip that step
08:15:10	<dminuoso>	*package with the resolved version + flags.
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08:15:25	<dminuoso>	If in a different projects you have other constraints that would result in a different version of the same library, it'd have to be rebuilt of course.
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08:34:12	<thyriaen>	good morning, my friends - what fun tutorialy resources do you recommend to get into haskell ? I think best would be some kind of problemset to solve - any suggestions ?
08:35:06	<dexterfoo>	how can I run these 3 ghci commands all together? ":r" ":!clear" "main"
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08:42:24	<yushyin>	thyriaen: https://www.cis.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/lectures.html https://github.com/system-f/fp-course ( https://wiki.haskell.org/Tutorials )
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08:43:05	<dminuoso>	@where learning
08:43:05	<lambdabot>	I know nothing about learning.
08:43:07	<dminuoso>	@where learn
08:43:07	<lambdabot>	https://wiki.haskell.org/Learning_Haskell
08:43:18	<thyriaen>	thanks
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08:48:58	<dmwit>	dexterfoo: What's wrong with `:r\n:!clear\nmain\n`?
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08:49:49	<dmwit>	(NB I'm not claiming that meets your needs. I just don't know what your needs are and this is my best idea about how to find them out.)
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09:14:30	<tomsmeding>	dexterfoo: in case it doesn't, what about `:def R \_ -> Prelude.return (":r\n:!clear\nmain\n")`? Then :R runs that
09:15:20	<jophish>	The topic here needs updating, the matrix bridge is up and running
09:15:29	<jophish>	ignore that if you can't see my messages
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09:15:49	<tomsmeding>	jophish: I can :)
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09:16:02	<tomsmeding>	but isn't it in some kind of beta state?
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09:17:55	<jophish>	oh, perhaps
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09:28:43	<gentauro>	If I try to subscract 1 from each value in a list: `map ((-) 1) [1 .. 10]` why is this not equal `[0 .. 9]`?
09:28:58	<gentauro>	oh
09:29:09	<wallymathieu[m]>	Hi gentauro
09:29:11	<gentauro>	`(-) 1 x` got it
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09:30:03	<gentauro>	wallymathieu[m]: hi
09:30:15	<involans>	@gentauro: you might want to user `subtract` here
09:30:15	<lambdabot>	Unknown command, try @list
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09:30:39	<involans>	`map (subtract 1) [1 .. 10]`
09:31:24	<dexterfoo>	dmwit: this doesn't seem to work :\| tomsmeding: thanks this works!
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09:31:54	<gentauro>	involans: do you know why `(flip (-) 1)` doesn't work?
09:32:12	<gentauro>	oh, it does :)
09:32:50	<involans>	Yes - was about to say :) `subtract === flip (-)`
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09:37:23	<yushyin>	or (- 1) with -XLexicalNegation :)
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10:00:07	<involans>	ooh, `LexicalNegation` looks great. Thanks yushyin
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10:47:44	<raehik>	Years ago there was a handy GHC plugin framework HERMIT. I'm interested in using it but can't get it to build with GHC 8.10 (originally for 7.10? lots of functions now missing). Anyone here who may know more about HERMIT and possibility of using it in 2021?
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10:48:45	<gentauro>	involans: hmmm, `-1` should be a number and `- 1` should be a function awaiting for it's second value
10:49:06	<gentauro>	I mean, you don't write a decimal number like this: `10 . 24`
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10:53:07	<maerwald>	a single whitespace deciding on semantics is a dangerous path
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10:54:20	<tomsmeding>	raehik: does it talk to the GHC library interface? If so, I think making it work with the GHC api of a few years later is basically impossible without a rewrite
10:54:54	<yushyin>	gentauro: you can have that since ghc9.0.1 and LexicalNegation extension
10:55:06	<tomsmeding>	unless it uses a very limited portion of the api or something
10:55:29	<yushyin>	gentauro: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.0.1/docs/html/users_guide/exts/lexical_negation.html#extension-LexicalNegation
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10:56:34	<raehik>	tomsmeding: yes it does seem to hook in quite deep into GHC
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10:56:50	<raehik>	most of the now-missing functions and constructors left in 8.0 - 8.4 :(
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11:15:23	<gentauro>	12:53 < maerwald> a single whitespace deciding on semantics is a dangerous path
11:15:25	<gentauro>	howcome?
11:15:35	<gentauro>	we do it for decimal numbers right?
11:15:48	<maerwald>	gentauro: bugs
11:15:51	<gentauro>	`10.24` is valid while `10 . 24` isn't
11:16:08	<merijn>	hah
11:16:15	<merijn>	that's what you think
11:16:18	<merijn>	:t 10 . 24
11:16:19	<lambdabot>	(Num (b -> c), Num (a -> b)) => a -> c
11:16:39	<gentauro>	maerwald: I understand it would be problematic for `backwards compatibility` reasons
11:16:44	<gentauro>	merijn: :o
11:16:44	<maerwald>	no, bugs
11:17:13	<gentauro>	:t 1 2 7
11:17:14	<lambdabot>	(Num t1, Num t2, Num (t1 -> t2 -> t3)) => t3
11:17:19	<gentauro>	:\|
11:17:21	<gentauro>	what was that?
11:17:23	<merijn>	maerwald: tbh, the biggest flaw in haskell is allowing operators without whitespace around them
11:17:23	<gentauro>	I mean
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11:17:28	<maerwald>	Compare with rusts misfeature of omitting `return` when the last line doesn't end with a `;`
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11:17:40	<merijn>	gentauro: "1 :: Num a => a" there is no reason 'a' can't be a function
11:17:42	<maerwald>	so now you have to BLINK every time at the end of a function body
11:17:52	<maerwald>	to be sure you don't miss the damn `;`
11:17:55	<maerwald>	or the lack thereof
11:17:56	<merijn>	In fact, Num instances exist for functions
11:18:11	<gentauro>	merijn: `λ> 1 . 2 <interactive>:2:1: error: `
11:18:17	<gentauro>	I get an error with my `ghci`
11:18:23	<gentauro>	do I need to enable `stuff`?
11:18:30	<merijn>	maerwald: If we had just specified Haskell from the start to make whitespace mandatory around operators 90% of these problems where nonexistent
11:18:37	<merijn>	gentauro: It's an error because functions aren't printable
11:18:45	<merijn>	> 1 . 2 -- this errors too
11:18:47	<lambdabot>	error:
11:18:47	<lambdabot>	• Could not deduce (Num (b0 -> c))
11:18:47	<lambdabot>	(maybe you haven't applied a function to enough arguments?)
11:18:57	<merijn>	Because there's no Num instance for functions in scope
11:19:04	<gentauro>	merijn: yeah, but my point was that:
11:19:05	<gentauro>	> 1.2
11:19:07	<lambdabot>	1.2
11:19:11	<gentauro>	is a decimal number
11:19:14	<dminuoso>	This suggestion "maybe you haven't applied..." is particularly helpful here, merijn!
11:19:15	<gentauro>	while
11:19:18	<gentauro>	> 1 . 2
11:19:20	<lambdabot>	error:
11:19:20	<lambdabot>	• Could not deduce (Num (b0 -> c))
11:19:20	<lambdabot>	(maybe you haven't applied a function to enough arguments?)
11:19:22	<gentauro>	becomes a function
11:19:24	<dminuoso>	(I know where it comes from, but it can be terribly deceiving)
11:19:30	<merijn>	gentauro: "1 . 2" is valid Haskell expression that can compile just by importing a module
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11:19:44	<maerwald>	gentauro: in sufficiently polymorphic code, both may compile
11:19:53	<merijn>	gentauro: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/NumInstances
11:20:10	<maerwald>	I've had impossible to guess bugs in lens code too, where you'd think it should have been an error
11:20:16	<maerwald>	but it wasn't
11:20:33	<merijn>	The other mistakes in Haskell was having unary -
11:21:22	<merijn>	I swear, we could massively improve Haskell with a time machine, AMP proposal, and the sane plan for mandatory whitespace around operators and removing unary -
11:21:43	<gentauro>	merijn: do you want to start over again?
11:21:45	<gentauro>	xD
11:21:49	<merijn>	Yes
11:21:51	<maerwald>	merijn: nah, we're busy implementing type level features... no time for cleaning up the language
11:22:16	<gentauro>	is this how Java become Java? :o
11:22:19	<dminuoso>	% fix 1
11:22:19	<yahb>	dminuoso: ; <interactive>:3:1: error:; * No instance for (Num (() -> ())) arising from a use of `it'; (maybe you haven't applied a function to enough arguments?); * In the first argument of `print', namely `it'; In a stmt of an interactive GHCi command: print it
11:22:21	<merijn>	maerwald: Can't really clean up some of these issues without Python2-to-3 scenarios, because old code might break
11:22:25	<dminuoso>	% fix 1
11:22:28	<maerwald>	:: for kind signatures is confusing af for me
11:22:30	<yahb>	dminuoso: [Timed out]
11:22:32	<dminuoso>	Here. Compiles and runs just fine!
11:22:38	<gentauro>	:t fix
11:22:39	<lambdabot>	(a -> a) -> a
11:22:40	<merijn>	maerwald: TypeInType is crazy nonsense, tbh
11:22:44	<dminuoso>	If you ever want to fix your numbers, that's the way to go.
11:22:47	<gentauro>	:t fix 1
11:22:48	<lambdabot>	Num (a -> a) => a
11:23:07	<gentauro>	to `fix 1` equals infinite recursion?
11:23:15	<merijn>	"maybe"
11:23:56	<DigitalKiwi>	what is fix
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11:24:19	<dminuoso>	DigitalKiwi: think of it as a tool to create anonymous loops
11:24:25	<dminuoso>	or anonymous recursion, rather
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11:25:11	<dminuoso>	`ones = 1 : ones` requires a binding, so this is named recursion. Or you can just write `fix (1:)`
11:25:22	<dminuoso>	(Ignoring tying-the-not here, which you should do)
11:25:29	<merijn>	DigitalKiwi: fix is the most primitive distilled form of recursion
11:25:50	<merijn>	DigitalKiwi: Any recursive function can be rewritten as fix + non-recursive function
11:26:02	<dminuoso>	And any use of fix can be turned into just simple recursion.
11:26:19	<merijn>	DigitalKiwi: See: https://gist.github.com/merijn/b86649a6aa21bd140803
11:26:30	<dminuoso>	One part where fix is particularly handy, is you have a data type and want to create mutually referencing fields
11:26:31	<Taneb>	merijn: being pedantic, I'm not sure all instances of recursion can be written that way. In particular, polymorphic recursion fails
11:27:02	<dminuoso>	You can just write `fix $ \d -> Data { f1 = [1,2,3]; f2 = [2,3,4]; f3 = f1 d <> f2 d }` for example
11:27:06	<merijn>	Taneb: polymorphic recursion requires typeclasses or some such anyway, no?
11:27:15	<Taneb>	No? Let me write something
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11:27:25	<dminuoso>	(This is compact and eloquent, and will use sharing)
11:28:55	<Taneb>	merijn: https://gist.github.com/Taneb/e17d338384a62297002983e123d8d59d
11:29:01	<dminuoso>	mfix is far more interesting than fix I think
11:29:27	<dminuoso>	fix is just handy, but mfix can do things that take a lot more effort than without
11:29:57	<Taneb>	merijn: I don't think it's possible to write "size" there with fix and a non-recursive function
11:29:57	<tomsmeding>	maerwald: out of context reply, but re the semicolon issue on the last line with rust: it's not going to typecheck when you make the wrong decision in at most one place, I think
11:30:03	<Taneb>	Happy to be proven wrong here
11:30:27	<maerwald>	tomsmeding: it hinders reading flow
11:30:31	<tomsmeding>	not sure if it's possible to conceive a situation where getting two semicolons wrong makes a type correct program again
11:30:45	<merijn>	Taneb: hmm, maybe
11:31:02	<tomsmeding>	agree about the incongruity with the rest of the imperative language though; go full let...in or have a return keyword
11:31:07	<merijn>	Taneb: You're probably right, but I'm too tired to dedicate any brain cycles too considering a way around it :p
11:31:08	<hpc>	DigitalKiwi: since it hasn't been mentioned yet, the easiest way to understand fix is that fix (\f -> expression that mentions f) is analogous to f = expression that mentions f
11:31:27	<merijn>	hpc: I already did that via my map implementation above ;)
11:31:34	<dminuoso>	hpc: modulo knot tying!
11:31:39	<Taneb>	merijn: I believe this kind of recursion is invalid in ML, incidentally, but Haskell accepts it without complaint
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11:31:56	<dminuoso>	Which I think should still be mentioned. If you naively write `f = expression that mentions f` your stack will suffer
11:32:07	<dminuoso>	With fix it wouldnt
11:33:12	<merijn>	dminuoso: huh?
11:33:14	<merijn>	dminuoso: Why?
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11:33:41	<dminuoso>	mmm
11:33:47	<dminuoso>	ah I guess it wouldnt
11:33:51	<tomsmeding>	@src fix
11:33:51	<lambdabot>	fix f = let x = f x in x
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11:35:20	<tomsmeding>	looks like it would be exactly the same, to me
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11:35:34	<dminuoso>	Yeah, I think I misremembered something.
11:35:41	<dminuoso>	@src cycle
11:35:41	<lambdabot>	cycle [] = undefined
11:35:41	<lambdabot>	cycle xs = xs' where xs' = xs ++ xs'
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11:35:52	<dminuoso>	Maybe my brain was wired wrong with this in mind
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11:36:30	<merijn>	yeah
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11:36:42	<merijn>	"cycle xs = xs ++ cycle xs" is where you'd lose sharing
11:36:58	<tomsmeding>	ooooo right sharing
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11:41:14	<merijn>	but the problem here is the sharing of the result of the recursion, rather than the function itself
11:43:32	<dminuoso>	That makes sense
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11:54:25	<DigitalKiwi>	what is sharing
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11:56:59	<tomsmeding>	let x = complicated_stuff in x + x
11:57:12	<tomsmeding>	will only compute x once, because its result is _shared_ between its usages
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11:57:38	<tomsmeding>	let l = 1 : l in ...
11:57:52	<tomsmeding>	there the list and its tail are shared (i.e. point to the same thing in memory)
11:57:59	<dminuoso>	This is something you can only get with purity in the language. With an impure language, you demand the compiler prove this is a legit transformation.,
11:58:34	<dminuoso>	This might be a good teaser why unsafePerformIO can behave really unexpected, because GHC will make assumptions like the above.
11:59:03	<dminuoso>	% cycle [1,2,3]
11:59:09	<yahb>	dminuoso: [1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2
11:59:12	<boxscape>	dminuoso when you say "This", do you mean having the compiler automatically introduce sharing into an expression that wouldn't otherwise have it?
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12:01:00	<dminuoso>	boxscape: fsvo of "automatically", anyhow
12:01:06	<boxscape>	ok
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12:02:57	<merijn>	boxscape: CSE (Common Sub-expression Elimination) is an optimisation that exists in GHC, yes
12:03:09	<boxscape>	right, okay
12:03:36	<merijn>	boxscape: So if you write "(2 + 2) * (2 + 2)" ghc may decide to compile it as "let x = 2 + 2 in x * x"
12:03:59	<boxscape>	I remember when I first read (I think in LYAH) that being lazy means every expression is evaluated at most once, I assumed that means CSE is applied to everything
12:04:21	<boxscape>	(which of course was not at all what was meant by it)
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12:04:42	<merijn>	boxscape: Well, that also gets is in the pedantic argument that Haskell is "non-strict" and not lazy ;)
12:04:51	<boxscape>	yes, but I don't think LYAH made that distinction
12:04:57	<merijn>	Probably not, no
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12:09:12	<boxscape>	(looking at google though, it doesn't seem as though the phrase "at most once" appears in LYAH, actually. It does appear in that context in a few other places)
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12:14:33	<boxscape>	LYAH does seem to say on the first page though that laziness implies fusion of list operations
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12:17:25	<boxscape>	also in another chapter: "Thanks to Haskell's laziness, even if you map something over a list several times and filter it several times, it will only pass over the list once." http://learnyouahaskell.com/higher-order-functions
12:17:30	<boxscape>	which strikes me as wrong
12:17:33	<int-e>	boxscape: not really... laziness means that doubleMe(doubleMe(doubleMe(xs))) is evaluated without ever fully evaluating the intermediate lists
12:18:12	<int-e>	boxscape: fusion is about completely eliminating the intermediate lists; they don't even exist as a cons with unevaluated tail anymore
12:18:38	<boxscape>	int-e yes, I'd agree with that, I think the text is ignoring that fusion is necessary at all though
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12:19:16	<int-e>	maybe
12:19:51	<boxscape>	(or rather, implying that you get fusion for free as soon as you have laziness)
12:20:58	<int-e>	the text is imprecise because it focuses on the values of the list, ignoring its spine
12:21:19	<boxscape>	yeah that's true
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12:26:33	<merijn>	Even without fusion laziness reduces the operational cost
12:26:43	<merijn>	Since allocating and GCing in GHC is cheap
12:26:54	<merijn>	not having to store the entire spine N times certainly matters
12:27:12	<boxscape>	that's fair
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12:29:28	<delYsid>	How do I run Haskell code at build-time to generate a datafile which will be includeed via file-embed?
12:30:01	<delYsid>	I guess I need to hook into Setup.hs? But I didnt find any good examples yet.
12:32:42	<merijn>	I would strongly advice on reconsidering at least one of those two >.>
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12:35:39	<delYsid>	care to elaborate?
12:35:58	<merijn>	Hooking Setup.hs is super brittle
12:36:01	<xerox>	delYsid: looks like it, I found this https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-package.html#autogenerated-modules-and-includes and an example in the wild https://github.com/ArgonDesign/acov/search?q=buildversion
12:36:11	<merijn>	It will break lots of things, such as doctests, etc.
12:36:35	<merijn>	delYsid: What kinda data do you need to embed?
12:36:49	<delYsid>	merijn: So is there a better way then Setup.hs?
12:37:42	<merijn>	Not if you need an external file. But then, if you are gonna generate the file at compile time, do you even need an external file?
12:38:13	<delYsid>	merijn: I lookup table, essentially... The data is in a text file, and I'd like to move the parser step from runtime to compile-time, since decoding via the Binary instance is way faster...
12:38:43	<delYsid>	s/I/A/
12:38:58	<merijn>	delYsid: But you can just generate your lookup table at compile and embed that, rather than using file-embed, no?
12:39:43	<delYsid>	I dont understand. I was planning to use decode . embedFile
12:39:46	<merijn>	file-embed lets you embed external file as ByteString. But TemplateHaskell is much more powerful than that, you can simply convert to your final data structure at compile time and embed that data structure
12:39:59	<merijn>	delYsid: Right, but that's like, the worst of both worlds?
12:40:09	<merijn>	delYsid: The decode still happens at runtime
12:40:37	<delYsid>	true, but its less worse then what I currently have, which is running megaparsec at runtime
12:41:11	<delYsid>	But I get the idea, however, I have to admit, I am afraid of TH. Whenever I touched it, I almost went mad.
12:41:12	<merijn>	delYsid: Is your text file generated or static?
12:41:23	<merijn>	delYsid: file-embed is TH, though :p
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12:42:00	<delYsid>	Well, the text file is sort of static, yeah.
12:42:17	<delYsid>	It might change sometime, but its not autogenerated.
12:42:37	<merijn>	ok, then I think your initial question was already confusing
12:43:06	<delYsid>	likely, my questions here tend to do that.
12:43:27	<merijn>	delYsid: Your question parses as: I want to generate a text-file using Haskell code, then embed that file using file-embed. Which is a major PITA, because that'd involve hooking Setup.hs and some kinda preprocessor setup
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12:43:51	<merijn>	delYsid: Whereas "I already have a file and want to embed that" is much less painful
12:44:12	<merijn>	Because that can be done entirely in TH
12:45:52	<merijn>	delYsid: If you have both "a text file" and "Haskell code that translates that file into whatever data structure you need at runtime", then doing that conversion in TH is fairly straightforward
12:45:54	<delYsid>	Well, I know embedFile, and use it. All I want is to run the conversion from text to binary a build-time so that I can load a binary a runtime... I could as well commit the binary file to the repo, but thats ugly man.
12:46:38	<merijn>	delYsid: Right, but how about this: Rather than than embedding the binary file, "read and convert" the text file at compile time and embed the resulting data structure
12:47:00	<delYsid>	And pointers on getting me started on that? Its essentially a newtype'd HashMap...
12:47:27	<merijn>	delYsid: Suppose your final (at runtime) data structure is "YourMap Foo Value" and you have "Text -> Either Error (YourMap Foo Value)" then things are "fairly" easy
12:47:42	<merijn>	delYsid: Well, you'll want: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/template-haskell-2.17.0.0/docs/Language-Haskell-TH-Syntax.html#v:liftTyped
12:48:12	<merijn>	delYsid: liftTyped turns a value (at TH runtime, i.e. compile time) into the TH representation of that value
12:48:34	<delYsid>	oh, neat
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12:48:45	<merijn>	delYsid: I've got a fun library showcasing this
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12:49:05	<merijn>	delYsid: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/validated-literals
12:49:17	<merijn>	delYsid: Which does partial conversions at compile time (and errors if they fail)
12:49:46	<merijn>	delYsid: The Q (i.e. TH monad) is an instance of MonadIO, so you can just liftIO any filesystem code to run at compile time with no issue
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12:50:23	<delYsid>	So whats the type of my "compiler" function, then?
12:50:47	<merijn>	delYsid: And then you could just write "lookup = $( liftIO (readFile path) >>= foo)" where 'foo' is a combination of liftTyped + your decode stuff
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12:51:42	<merijn>	Simplest case would be "foo = liftTyped . decodeData" (but that's wrong if decodeData can return an Either/throw an exception, which you'd need to handle before liftTyped)
12:52:16	<merijn>	but the validated-literals code has some examples of how to turn "Either Error a" into 'TExp a' that has a type error at compile time
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12:52:45	<merijn>	delYsid: For example: https://github.com/merijn/validated-literals/blob/master/ValidLiterals.hs#L110-L116
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12:54:13	<merijn>	delYsid: And then valid (or validInteger, etc.) can be used as splices like: https://github.com/merijn/validated-literals/blob/master/examples/Examples.hs#L24-L25
12:55:29	<delYsid>	[\|\|val\|\|] ugh, TH...
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12:56:09	<merijn>	delYsid: '[\|\| x \|\|]' just turns value 'x' into "an AST representing the value 'x'"
12:56:18	<merijn>	delYsid: Since the output of TH is an AST
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12:56:57	<merijn>	So "2" is just the value 2 in the TH code, but "[\|\| 2 \|\|]" is "an AST representing the syntax '2'"
12:57:14	<delYsid>	my problem starts at liftTyped. I dont understand its type signature at all. Because I dont know what Code is... The Q monad confuses me.
12:58:06	<merijn>	delYsid: Q monad is "IO + GHC"
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12:58:53	<merijn>	delYsid: The Q is the "quasiquoting" monad. i.e. the context in which code that runs at compile time executes
12:59:13	<merijn>	delYsid: Does the Exp type make sense to you? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/template-haskell-2.17.0.0/docs/Language-Haskell-TH.html#g:20
12:59:45	<merijn>	delYsid: i.e., that's just the datatype for Haskell's AST
12:59:52	<xerox>	I used to be in the same camp til I found https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/8.10.3/docs/html/users_guide/glasgow_exts.html#template-haskell it is a very clear explanation I think
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12:59:57	<merijn>	(well, the expression part of the AST, anyway)
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13:00:17	<merijn>	brb
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13:04:40	<ski>	guest61 : well, i also suggested using `case'-`of' to pick apart the `parse' result, distinguishing between then successful and the failure case, rather than going on to use `fmap' all the time to manipulate the successful result. but also to use `case'-`of', instead of `==' and `/=' (and e.g. using `catMaybes' instead of `filter' and `fmap fromJust'). then i had a few cosmetic changes like removing
13:04:46	<ski>	redundant brackets, removing all the `$'s, replacing `print' with `putStrLn' with `hPutStrLn stderr', factoring `pure' out of `maybe'
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13:18:52	<delYsid>	merijn: So, how do I make my type an instance of Lift?
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13:30:01	<dminuoso>	delYsid: You write an instance declaration?
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13:31:42	<dminuoso>	delYsid: All you have to do is specify how to build an Exp from a value of your type. To generate fresh names that cannot be captured, you can use `newName` inside the definition of `lift`
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13:33:32	<merijn>	delYsid: You can DeriveLift
13:33:33	<jaror[m]>	With (since) 9.0.1 you have to give an implementation of `liftTyped`, that might be harder than implementing `lift`.
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13:39:45	<delYsid>	merijn: I did. I even found th-instances-lift for Unboxed Vector, but now I am stuck at HashMap not having a Lift instance...
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13:50:21	<merijn>	delYsid: You can workaround that like so: https://github.com/merijn/validated-literals/blob/master/examples/ByteString.hs#L28
13:51:54	<merijn>	i.e. "AppE <$> [\| HM.fromList \|] <*> lift x" where "x :: [(k, v)]"
13:52:19	<jippiedoe>	re: laziness and fusing list operations: I like to think of it in evaluation order; laziness evaluates the f's and g's in `map f . map g` in the same order as the fused `map (f . g)`. Actual fusion/deforestation just removes some indirection with consing and unconsing
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14:00:35	<delYsid>	oh, it works.
14:00:51	<merijn>	\o/
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14:02:01	<dminuoso>	jippiedoe: Wouldn't another major benefit of fusing `map f . map g` into `map (f . g)` be improved locality of cache?
14:02:26	<merijn>	Yes, no, maybe?
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14:03:06	<dminuoso>	Well, if the produced data of `f` is still hot in your L1/L2, then surely that's a good thing
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14:03:46	<dminuoso>	If you map twice, then depending on the length of the data, you could be evicting chunks of it
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14:06:38	<merijn>	dminuoso: That doesn't hold though
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14:06:52	<merijn>	dminuoso: In a lazy setting the evaluation of the first and second map would be interleaved
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14:07:09	<dminuoso>	Ah yes
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14:08:17	<dminuoso>	What's the main benefit of fusion then? Ability of the simplifier to improve `f.g`?
14:08:27	<merijn>	dminuoso: You get to skip allocating a cons cell
14:08:31	<dminuoso>	Or is it really just saving extra case-of discriminating on cons?
14:08:42	<dminuoso>	Ah, it has to create a new one
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14:10:07	<merijn>	yeah
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14:19:11	<delYsid>	• GHC internal error: ‘fp’ is not in scope during type checking, but it passed the renamer
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14:19:20	<delYsid>	there be dragons
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14:19:48	<ski>	@ghc
14:19:49	<lambdabot>	Command stack underflow at command
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14:44:22	<delYsid>	merijn: x fp = $(AppE <$> [\| fromList \|] <*> lift [\| x \|]) where x = $$(r fp) -- gives me a stage restriction. How do I pass an argument through?
14:44:58	<delYsid>	ugh, wait
14:45:27	<delYsid>	x fp = $(AppE <$> [\| fromList \|] <*> lift $$(r fp)) -- better, but same error
14:45:58	<delYsid>	r :: FilePath -> Q (TExp [D])
14:46:06	<c_wraith>	is r defined in the same file?
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14:46:13	<c_wraith>	that's what the stage restriction is about
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14:46:42	<delYsid>	is there a way to wrap this up without creating two internal modules?
14:46:43	<gentauro_>	«Early June 8, a customer pushed a valid configuration change that included the specific circumstances that triggered the bug, which caused 85% of our network to return errors.» so a type error xD https://www.fastly.com/blog/summary-of-june-8-outage
14:47:08	<c_wraith>	delYsid: you could define r locally instead of at the top level
14:47:20	<delYsid>	ah
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14:47:45	<tdammers>	obvious fix: grep for the number 85 in the codebase, and change all occurrences to 0
14:48:41	<merijn>	delYsid: You don't wanna $( the AppE, you just return that
14:48:59	<merijn>	At least, I think you don't
14:49:11	<merijn>	ah, wait, I see what's you're doing
14:49:34	<delYsid>	I think the problem is Exp vs TExp
14:49:39	<merijn>	delYsid: You wanna get rid of the outer $( and the use "$(x filepath)" somewhere
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14:50:28	<merijn>	delYsid: Ah, you're mixing typed and untyped TH too
14:50:43	<merijn>	$$( is typed TH, but $( and [\| are untyped TH
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14:51:05	<merijn>	delYsid: "lift $$(r fp)" is also suspificous
14:51:20	<merijn>	That looks like you just want "r fp", tbh
14:51:21	<delYsid>	yeah, I told you TH confuses me.
14:51:23	<delYsid>	But I am close
14:51:37	<delYsid>	AIUI, I have TExp cos I use liftTyped
14:51:49	<delYsid>	But I dunno how to get rid of it, $$(...) seemed to do the trick
14:52:15	<merijn>	delYsid: Let's rewind a bit. Part of the confusingness of TH is that you have 2 "runtimes" (the "runtime" of code that runs at compile time and "normal" runtime)
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14:52:35	<delYsid>	No instance for (Lift (Q (TExp [Opening])))
14:52:50	<merijn>	delYsid: The code that runs at compile time is just regular old boring Haskell. But it needs to (in the end) produce an AST that GHC "inserts" into the code that is being compiled
14:53:06	<merijn>	delYsid: The Q monad let's you 1) do IO and 2) query GHC about code/types
14:53:08	<delYsid>	I get that part
14:53:38	<merijn>	delYsid: $(x) takes "Q (TExp a)" and splices the AST produced by that Q action into that part of the code
14:54:15	<merijn>	delYsid: So "lift $$(r fp)" first runs 'r fp' (at compile time), then splices the AST into the code
14:54:16	<delYsid>	It only worked when I used $$, but I was only trying it out in ghci, so maybe the repl differs?
14:54:49	<merijn>	but then 'lift' tries to turn that AST into an AST again
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14:55:21	<delYsid>	Couldn't match type ‘TExp [Opening]’ with ‘Exp’
14:55:25	<merijn>	delYsid: So you end up trying to splice the AST of "Q (TExp a)" into your code
14:55:31	<merijn>	delYsid: Ok, that is easy to fix
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14:55:51	<merijn>	delYsid: Replace "[\| x \|]" with "[\|\| x \|\|]"
14:56:11	<merijn>	([\|\| \|\|] is the typed quotes vs [\| \|] which produces untyped quotes)
14:56:27	<delYsid>	Couldn't match type ‘TExp (Q (TExp [Opening]))’ with ‘Exp’
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14:56:35	<merijn>	can you pastebin the code?
14:57:22	<delYsid>	to be honest, no. I am stuck on a console
14:58:33	<delYsid>	The problem is still typed vs untyped, just that [\|\| x \|\|] doesnt help because I have no x, I have "r fp" which is Q (TExp [Opening])
14:58:46	<merijn>	hold, lemme slap something together
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14:59:46	<merijn>	And then break it down
15:00:04	<merijn>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/l6B1l0Pj
15:00:22	<merijn>	Ok, so the 'r' there is just regular boring old Haskell you know how to write, right?
15:01:16	<delYsid>	https://blind.guru/TH.hs
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15:01:30	<merijn>	delYsid: Let's breakdown 'x', first we liftIO your boring old IO code into the Q monad. This means we execute all of 'r' at compile time (probably 'r' needs to be in a different module from 'x' due to stage restriction)
15:02:04	Lycurgus	just found googling "legible haskell" amusing
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15:02:23	<merijn>	So, 'x' is a TH function that produces a (typed) AST that represents a value of type 'YourType'
15:02:32	<merijn>	delYsid: Let's look at the parts
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15:02:51	<merijn>	"AppE" is a constructor from Exp which represents function application
15:03:18	<delYsid>	get that
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15:03:48	<merijn>	[\|\| fromList \|\|] turns the 'fromList' function into 'Q (TExp (a -> b))', i.e. a quasiquote representing a function (probably 'Q (TExp ([k, v] -> HashMap k v)' here)
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15:04:16	<merijn>	So we somehow need to get an AST for [(k, v)] to which we can apply fromList
15:04:38	<merijn>	delYsid: But what you have is not the AST for [(k, v)], but an actual list that 'r' just parsed
15:05:08	<merijn>	delYsid: So we need a function that goes '[(k, v)] -> Q (TExp [(k, v)])'
15:05:22	<merijn>	delYsid: Which is what liftTyped does
15:05:48	<c_wraith>	on sufficiently recent versions of GHC...
15:05:54	<merijn>	Now, since we have AppE and Q is a monad we can do our regular Applicative dance to combine them
15:05:58	<c_wraith>	I'm a bit sad how recent liftTyped is
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15:06:02	<merijn>	c_wraith: Same
15:06:18	<merijn>	c_wraith: But at least it's here now!
15:07:12	ski	. o O ( "Cross-stage persistence" <http://okmij.org/ftp/ML/MetaOCaml.html#CSP> )
15:07:14	<merijn>	delYsid: So now that we have 'x' this way, all we need to do to embed your data is call (and splice the result) of 'x' into your actual code, which you'd do using something like 'compileTimeMap = $$(x "path/to/file")' in your code
15:08:04	<merijn>	delYsid: There's one catch, though. Which is: you cannot call code in the same module as 'x' from 'x' (so your 'r' function needs to be in a different module) and you cannot call 'x' in the module you define it (the stage restriction error before)
15:08:31	<merijn>	delYsid: Because GHC has to compile 'r' before it can compile 'x' and needs to compile 'x' before you can use it and doing that in the same module is hard
15:09:22	<delYsid>	Since I dont need r, is there a way to write x such that I dont need a second module?
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15:10:10	<merijn>	delYsid: Sure, you can have the code of 'r' inside 'x' itself, if it only uses library code
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15:11:58	<merijn>	delYsid: Something like https://paste.tomsmeding.com/NBPCg1ip
15:12:13	<merijn>	delYsid: assuming parseList is defined in another module
15:12:25	<delYsid>	I always hit the same issue. I have a TExp but my AppE wants an Exp
15:12:58	<delYsid>	the modern web is driving me crazy. try "lynx https://paste.tomsmeding.com/NBPCg1ip" and be welcome in my world.
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15:17:20	<delYsid>	No instance for (Lift (Q (TExp (Q (TExp [Opening])))))
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15:17:25	<comerijn>	It's weird that AppE doesn't work, though. It worked in my tests
15:17:38	<delYsid>	OK, its official, I am just too dumb. But thanks for trying.
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15:17:45	<comerijn>	hmmm, how much of what I typed got lost?
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15:18:20	<comerijn>	delYsid: Naah, it's just unlucky that AppE works on TExp the last time I checked, but doesn't in the latest version
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15:19:13	<delYsid>	Thats what I was trying to explain. I need a function TExp a -> Exp, somehow. AppE only works with Exp
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15:19:55	<comerijn>	delYsid: What I typed before getting dropped was: Well, the easiest hack is to rewrite it to "AppE <$> [\| fromList \|] <*> lift result"
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15:20:01	<delYsid>	Or I just give up and do "fromList $(foo "file")" and call it a day.
15:20:04	<comerijn>	Which just avoids using typed TH at all
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15:20:39	<comerijn>	FYI "unType :: TExp a -> Exp" exists too
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15:22:21	<delYsid>	aha!
15:22:31	<delYsid>	just do lift and not liftTyped, and everything is fine.
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15:26:50	<cwraith>	delYsid: like, instead of the whole (AppE <$> [\|\| fromList \|\|] <*> liftTyped result) thing, just use [\|\| fromList result \|\|]
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15:29:00	<c_wraith>	yes, I understand that looks weird. quote literals actually do different things depending on the scope of identifiers
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15:30:31	<c_wraith>	it looks up fromList and finds the name is in scope at the top level. So it generates a VarE for that name. It looks up result and finds it's local, so it calls liftTyped on it
15:30:47	<c_wraith>	it calls liftTyped on the value, that is
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15:31:25	<c_wraith>	That's actually one of the hardest parts of TH for me to wrap my head around - what the various name resolution rules inside a quote literal do
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15:41:35	<delYsid>	Haha. So TH works now, but I need to wait a few minutes till ghci loads the module.
15:41:42	<delYsid>	And building also takes a minute.
15:43:02	<c_wraith>	TH is not fast.
15:43:12	<c_wraith>	this is why I tend to avoid it when I can :)
15:43:19	<c_wraith>	even if that means writing lenses by hand :)
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15:49:33	<delYsid>	If someone complains, I'll point them at merijn :-)
15:49:48	<delYsid>	But I learnt a bunch, thanks for that!"
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16:25:29	<knu>	Hey, I'm a bit confused with the behavior of haddock concerning data families
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16:26:17	<knu>	A module just defining instances won't list any of them in haddock, instead they are all in the module defining the data family
16:26:54	<knu>	But if write module Barf (module Barf) where it lists every instance, but says that these are patterns
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16:28:43	<knu>	are data family instances equivalent to patterns?
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16:33:15	<delYsid>	aha! [\|\| fromList $$(x)) \|\|]
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16:54:44	<ski>	knu : huh ?
16:55:24	<knu>	Jup, it's quite baffling to me
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16:55:46	<monochrom>	No, I'm sure ski means no one understands your question, it's incoherent.
16:56:18	<knu>	Oh, how could I clarify?
16:56:20	<monochrom>	Well, OK, I'll just speak for myself, I find it incoherent.
16:56:27	<monochrom>	Show actual code?
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16:58:17	<knu>	Hm, one moment, I'll upload a preview at hackage
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17:03:23	<knu>	https://codeshare.io/zydqkN
17:04:19	<knu>	If I generate haddock for these three modules, in module A I'll see both instances, in module B I'll see nothing and in module C it says pattern Zonk :: Foo Bool
17:05:29	<monochrom>	Interesting.
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17:05:59	<knu>	And with PatternSynonyms enabled, I can import C (pattern Zonk)
17:07:08	<knu>	So I'm thinking, that in these cases, patterns and data family instances are the same
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17:09:47	<knu>	It get's worse:
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17:10:40	<monochrom>	They are certainly not the same. You can't use PatternSynonyms to define data family instances.
17:10:56	<knu>	If I'm with ghci in module A, I can import B (Foo(Barf)) but I can not import C (Foo(Zonk))
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17:11:39	<knu>	It'll say, that C doesn't export Foo, so I can import it only by importing all of C or make a pattern import
17:12:47	<monochrom>	I agree with the compiler about "C doesn't export Foo". This one is basic.
17:13:26	<knu>	yes, but why doesn't he complain about import B (Foo(Barf))
17:14:04	<knu>	also, I can't import C (Zonk)
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17:16:47	<knu>	I'm writing a lib with a lot of data family instances, which I'd like to split in different modules to have a clean namespace. Now I'm forced to choose between modules without haddock, modules in which haddock claims are only patterns and which aren't easily individually importable.
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17:18:42	<knu>	hm
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17:19:29	<ski>	knu : i guess it might be implicitly defining a pattern synonym `Zonk' for `Foo Bool' ?
17:19:37	<maerwald>	monochrom: did you follow the HasCallstack base/Data.List RFC? I'm wondering what you think about the `Partial` typeclass approach that was brought up (and is used by purescript it seems)
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17:20:16	<monochrom>	I didn't.
17:20:17	<ski>	knu : try `module C (module A,module C) where ...' and then try `import C (Foo(Zonk))' ?
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17:20:52	<maerwald>	https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/libraries/2021-June/031292.html
17:21:00	<monochrom>	What is the semantics of Partial?
17:21:11	<maerwald>	I find it very foggy
17:21:24	<maerwald>	something like "may call `error`... or not"
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17:21:38	<knu>	@ski: Yes, I've tried that one. In this case the import works. In haddock I'll get the data family with both instances and additionally the pattern Zonk
17:21:38	<lambdabot>	Unknown command, try @list
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17:22:32	<ski>	knu : does that solve your problem ?
17:22:37	<knu>	So this would be my third option, which would nuke my haddocks, because my data families have about 100 instances
17:22:50	<ski>	knu : also, what if you try `module C (Foo,module C) where ...' ?
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17:23:00	<knu>	Same result
17:23:05	<monochrom>	This is deja vu. I think I saw this in a dream some years ago...
17:23:33	<maerwald>	quite possible
17:24:09	<monochrom>	Unlike IsPartial, HasCallBack does not automatically propagate.
17:24:43	ski	. o O ( `promiseTotal :: (IsPartial => a) -> a' )
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17:25:04	<maerwald>	ski: yeah...which may completely lie
17:25:09	<ski>	obviously
17:25:21	<maerwald>	refactored out some stuff, forgot to remove it
17:25:23	<maerwald>	oops
17:25:46	<maerwald>	it's basically unsafePerformIO from a different angle
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17:26:11	<maerwald>	you have to do proper local reasoning for it to be correct
17:26:23	<monochrom>	I think I'm on the fence for this. And regardless of any detail refinement such as "does it propagate?" "does it have actual semantic behaviour?" "how annoying is it going to be?"
17:26:31	ski	. o O ( "If you lie to the compiler, the compiler will get its revenge!" )
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17:26:54	<ski>	maerwald : except it's clearer on what the proof obligation is
17:27:05	<maerwald>	ski: is it?
17:27:29	<maerwald>	foo :: FilePath -> IO () -- what if this crashes on non-absolute paths?
17:27:33	<maerwald>	does it make it partial?
17:28:10	<maerwald>	wait... now, does it call `error` or `throwIO`, or...
17:28:14	<maerwald>	and, does the user care?
17:28:17	<monochrom>	"partial" is not a notion for effects. At least by my definitions.
17:28:23	<ski>	insofar as the partiality of the relevant operation is specified, at least
17:28:31	<maerwald>	monochrom: SPJ seemed to consider it an effect
17:28:32	<ski>	maerwald : imho, no
17:28:45	<ski>	partiality is a side-effect
17:28:57	<maerwald>	uuuhm
17:28:59	<ski>	("no", to "does it make it partial?")
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17:29:30	<monochrom>	Err wait, nevermind, foo can still be partial from the POV of math function X->Y under Y=IO()
17:29:36	<ski>	(just like nontermination is a side-effect)
17:29:43	<knu>	@ski: module C (module A, module C) where actually solves my issue in the prettiest way
17:29:43	<lambdabot>	Unknown command, try @list
17:29:50	<knu>	thanks
17:30:04	<ski>	`foo undefined' would be partial, though
17:30:13	<ski>	knu : i was just about to ask if your issue was resolved
17:30:26	<zzz>	imagine i have some type T = TA Bool \| TB Bool and i want to have a list [T] where all T values alternate between True and False. Is there a way I can express this constraint at the type level?
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17:30:35	<maerwald>	monochrom: yeah, there are multiple ways to interpret this
17:30:40	<knu>	ski: not perfectly, but it's the best solution until now
17:30:43	<ski>	okay
17:30:53	<knu>	it still claims to export a lot of patterns
17:30:57	<ski>	zzz : not alternate between `TA' and `TB', then ?
17:31:11	<knu>	but I can import them at least without using a pragma
17:31:22	<zzz>	ski: no, so [TA True, TA False, TA True...] would be valid
17:31:50	<knu>	and it doesn't spam the documentation with every instance
17:31:55	<ski>	zzz : how about only storing the initial `Bool', and then a list of `TA's/`TB's, with no `Bool's in them ?
17:32:22	<monochrom>	I realize that I don't know what to make of: haha :: IO (); haha = do { x <- getLine; print (head x) }
17:32:47	<ski>	possibly partial
17:32:56	<monochrom>	Firstly it is not a function. Secondly it is not bottom of IO(). But it still bottoms out.
17:32:58	<maerwald>	Maybe Partial => IO ()
17:33:41	<ski>	partial on some executions. just like `head' is partial, for some calls to it
17:33:52	<monochrom>	At which point my usual reaction is "these are useless dichotomies: bottom vs non-bottom, function vs non-function value, partial vs total"
17:34:05	<maerwald>	everything is a...?
17:34:35	<ski>	do we need another word for a "dichotomy" which is not decidable, but only observable / semi-decidable ?
17:34:58	<monochrom>	No.
17:35:22	<monochrom>	Some undecidable dichotomies are still useful.
17:35:26	<ski>	knu : btw, i wonder whether `module C (module A,Foo (Zonk)) where ...' would work, too
17:35:50	<monochrom>	At least, useful for stating useful undecidable problems? haha
17:36:40	<maerwald>	Anyway, HasCallStack seems much less controversial, but some consider this will have negative effect on... teaching
17:38:12	<monochrom>	This is because HasCallStack is not nagware but IsPartial is.
17:40:04	<monochrom>	But I may like to hear how HasCallStack can be negative for teaching.
17:41:10	<monochrom>	"module C(Foo(Zonk))" should be just fine, but I haven't tested.
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17:41:32	<maerwald>	monochrom: https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/libraries/2021-June/031281.html
17:41:35	<maerwald>	there are the arguments
17:41:57	<monochrom>	I am just reading https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/8.10.5/docs/html/users_guide/glasgow_exts.html#import-and-export
17:42:23	<monochrom>	Thanks maerwald
17:42:33	<knu>	ski: just checked, importing works fine, but haddock now lists Foo with every instance, not only Zonk. At least, there is nothing about patterns.
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17:44:04	<ski>	knu : "now lists Foo with every instance, not only Zonk" -- is that preferrable ?
17:44:34	<knu>	for my case no
17:44:40	<tomsmeding>	delYsid: Sorry to see you having trouble with the paste site! I see I apparently forgot to send a content-type of text/html (that's now fixed). Are there other specific things that don't work for you?
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17:45:08	<knu>	there a lot of instances, so it should only list importable instances
17:45:33	<tomsmeding>	incidentally, for the cases where I use a text-mode browser, I use elinks rather than lynx because it has better support for various web constructs, but I don't know what works for you
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17:47:24	<monochrom>	I ditched lynx for elinks too.
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17:47:44	<monochrom>	lynx makes you remember hotkeys. elinks offers a browsable menu.
17:48:08	<tomsmeding>	also, the line numbers table on my paste site works in elinks whereas it doesn't in lynx :p
17:48:55	<monochrom>	The problem with hotkeys is the long tail. There are a lot of hotkeys you use infrequently enough that you will never remember, but still frequent enough that you still actually need.
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17:49:35	<monochrom>	The only merit of lynx is first-to-market, as usual.
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17:49:53	<monochrom>	and stronger propaganda.
17:49:55	<Izem>	what are type annotations in Haskell, expressions?
17:50:05	<Rembane_>	Izem: No, they are type annotations.
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17:50:17	<monochrom>	type expressions >:)
17:50:36	<monochrom>	"everything is an expression"
17:50:48	<Izem>	ok, I suppose they are just newline delimited also?
17:50:55	<tomsmeding>	except the things that aren't :p
17:51:11	<monochrom>	yes until you find out about semicolon
17:51:18	<boxscape>	I'd say depending on whether they're inline type annotations or type annotations belonging to a declaration, they can be part of an expression or part of a declaration. But they are not these things by themselves
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17:52:13	<Izem>	haskell doesn't seem use semi colon insertion
17:52:13	<monochrom>	I agree with boxscape.
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17:52:26	<Izem>	so I guess they are just used in specific places
17:53:19	<boxscape>	Izem semicolons and braces can be used optionally instead of newlines and indentation
17:53:20	<boxscape>	% let {semicolon = ";"; colon = ":"} in do {print semicolon; print colon}
17:53:20	<yahb>	boxscape: ";"; ":"
17:54:13	<Izem>	impressive
17:54:27	<ski>	Izem : type signatures are one thing, type ascriptions another
17:54:56	<Izem>	the former is for functions, the later for simple variables?
17:55:05	<ski>	no
17:55:23	<ski>	undefinedBool :: Bool
17:55:29	<ski>	undefinedBool = undefined :: Bool
17:55:52	<Izem>	ok
17:56:00	<Izem>	that looks like a type declaration
17:56:02	<ski>	the first line is a type signature. the expression (body of the definition, after the `=') on the second line is a type ascription
17:56:23	<Izem>	have not seen anyone use the word ascription :P
17:56:40	<boxscape>	(I haven't, either)
17:57:05	<ski>	data Bool = False \| True -- this is a data type declaration (and definition)
17:57:09	<boxscape>	the haskell report uses type signature for it
17:57:23	<boxscape>	("expression type signature", to be precise)
17:57:48	<Izem>	why did they need a data keyword to distinguish?
17:58:02	<ski>	it's also possible (with extension), to put an ascription on a pattern
17:58:15	<ski>	idBool (b :: Bool) = b
17:58:26	<ski>	or, inside `do' :
17:58:36	<ski>	b :: Bool <- readLn
17:58:49	<ski>	or in a lambda expression
17:59:00	<ski>	\ (b :: Bool) -> ..b..
17:59:03	<boxscape>	% True = False
17:59:03	<yahb>	boxscape:
17:59:04	<boxscape>	hm
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17:59:11	<boxscape>	gonna put this at the top level of my next file
17:59:44	<ski>	Izem : `data' is for declaring data types. there's also `newtype' and `type', which also declares types
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18:00:31	<ski>	% let !True = False
18:00:31	<yahb>	ski: *** Exception: <interactive>:7:5-17: Non-exhaustive patterns in True
18:00:48	<Izem>	ok, so I suspect there are different classes of types
18:01:02	<Izem>	data is for algebraic data types iirc
18:01:26	<ski>	`type' declares a new name (possibly parameterized) for an existing type. a type synonym
18:02:07	<ski>	`data' and `newtype' declares new types, together with ways to construct values of the new type
18:02:15	<Izem>	does haskell have symbols?
18:02:22	<Izem>	no need right?
18:02:23	<ski>	Izem : yes (algebraic data types)
18:02:26	<ski>	no symbols
18:02:28	<Izem>	ah kk
18:02:42	<ski>	you can use constant data constructors, mostly
18:02:53	<Izem>	interesting
18:03:15	<ski>	data Weekday = Sunday \| Monday \| Tuesday \| Wednesday \| Thursday \| Friday \| Saturday
18:03:45	<Izem>	are True and False special?
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18:04:20	<edmundnoble_>	Nope
18:04:26	<edmundnoble_>	`data Bool = True \| False`
18:04:26	<boxscape>	only in the sense that they are used by a few builtin constructs, but Bool is declared as a regular type
18:04:39	<edmundnoble_>	^
18:05:39	<DigitalKiwi>	data Bool = True \| False \| FileNotFound
18:05:56	<edmundnoble_>	If you want to define a new datatype, it will be with either `data` or `newtype`, and `newtype` only has subtle operational differences from `data`, it's not fundamentally different at all
18:07:11	<edmundnoble_>	Type aliases, defined with `type`, have no semantic content and with the exception of a few small things (like error messages changing) could be implemented entirely with preprocessor directives replacing the alias with its contents
18:07:14	<ski>	Izem : well, there's `OverloadedLabels' <https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/8.10.5/docs/html/users_guide/glasgow_exts.html#extension-OverloadedLabels>
18:07:18	<edmundnoble_>	(er, definition, more than contents)
18:07:52	<ski>	@src Bool
18:07:52	<lambdabot>	data Bool = False \| True deriving (Eq, Ord)
18:08:16	<Izem>	cool
18:08:25	<ski>	(`False' comes before `True', in the `Ord' instance (and also in `Enum',`Bounded' and `Ix')
18:09:39	<ski>	`Bool' has special support in the `if'-`then'-`else' syntactic sugar (one could just as well use `case'-`of'), and in guards (occuring in pattern-matching, and in list comprehensions)
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18:09:45	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	can I have a `hie.yaml` configuration that specifies both cabal and stack?
18:10:19	<delYsid>	tomsmeding: Oh, very cool you just picked that up from chatlog! If you send me a link, I can recheck
18:10:24	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	this project (https://github.com/Avi-D-coder/implicit-hie) seems to have two different files that need to be moved into the correct place
18:10:34	<Izem>	what's the difference between case-of and guards?
18:10:48	<ephemient>	if-then-else desugars to case-of in core, IIRC
18:11:14	<ski>	what's the difference between an apple and a saxophone ?
18:11:25	<ski>	they are not directly comparable
18:11:38	<boxscape>	Izem case-of is used to check whether a value has a certain structure, i.e. which constructors its made up of. Guards are used to check arbitrary boolean conditions
18:11:52	<Izem>	I see
18:11:59	<ski>	guards can occur both in `case'-`of', and in "ordinary" function parameter pattern-matching
18:12:01	<tomsmeding>	delYsid: I guess the same links works :) https://paste.tomsmeding.com/NBPCg1ip
18:12:16	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	guards desugar to case-of too IIRC
18:12:29	<Izem>	interesting
18:12:51	<Izem>	guard clauses are really novel
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18:13:27	<ski>	@src filter
18:13:27	<lambdabot>	filter _ [] = []
18:13:27	<lambdabot>	filter p (x:xs)
18:13:27	<lambdabot>	\| p x = x : filter p xs
18:13:27	<lambdabot>	\| otherwise = filter p xs
18:13:41	<ski>	this is equivalent to
18:14:03	<ski>	filter p xs0 = case xs0 of
18:14:43	<ski>	[ ] -> [ ]
18:14:49	<ski>	x:xs
18:15:04	<ski>	\| p x -> x : filter p xs
18:15:23	<ski>	\| otherwise -> filter p xs
18:16:08	<Izem>	thanks
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18:18:31	<ski>	Miranda had guards. i'd guess ISWIM had them, too
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18:19:34	<Izem>	yep, though they are different than haskell
18:19:48	<Izem>	it's like `foo, if bar`
18:20:17	<delYsid>	tomsmeding: Woohoo! Thanks for fixing the web! :-)
18:20:23	<delYsid>	(IOW, works for me now)
18:20:38	<tomsmeding>	delYsid: the line numbers are still kind of borked in lynx, but at least you can read the code :)
18:21:06	<delYsid>	yeah, about 90% of all paste thingies have the same line number problem, so I guess thats fine
18:21:16	<tomsmeding>	(they work in elinks)
18:21:31	<tomsmeding>	(suggests to me that perhaps lynx has some weird handling of html tables)
18:22:11	<delYsid>	Interesting. I am too old to change browsers, but I really need to remember that one
18:22:54	<ski>	hm, on a quick scan through Peter J. Landin's "The Next 700 Programming Languages" in 1966-03 at <http://thecorememory.com/Next_700.pdf>, i don't see guards, just conditionals
18:23:06	<ski>	Izem : yep
18:23:26	<delYsid>	Now, if someone could fix hackage source links please ... it drives me crazy not being able to casually look at sources, always have to fetch with git and find the reference by hand...
18:23:39	<delYsid>	But I guess that train has left the station.
18:26:00	<sm[m]>	delYsid: I use haddock's "source" links on hackage all the time
18:26:56	<tomsmeding>	sm[m]: in a text-mode browser they suck heavily because the tooltips are inlined
18:27:07	<sm[m]>	ah
18:27:30	tomsmeding	wonders how hard it would be to make a basic proxy that filters out those tooltips
18:27:37	<sm[m]>	Haskell Foundation is keen on accessibility, it could be worth raising on discourse
18:27:44	<tomsmeding>	delYsid: ^
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18:30:36	<boxscape>	I wish haddock source links worked across packages
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18:30:58	<boxscape>	I guess that's not really feasible?
18:31:31	<Rembane_>	I don't think I know the problem good enough, so I think it's 100% feasible.
18:31:47	<boxscape>	nice
18:33:08	←	alphacath parts (~alpha@host-79-36-63-89.retail.telecomitalia.it) ()
18:33:13	<Rembane_>	Because every package knows which other packages it depends on, and if those packages are available somewhere that's linkable, it should be possible to create a link to that place. Either locally or on hackage.
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18:34:28	<boxscape>	hmm I suppose the hackage URLs are pretty stable
18:35:31	<tomsmeding>	sometimes I see hackage links in doc text that are supposed to go to a different package, but that seem to "strip off one path component too little"
18:35:51	<tomsmeding>	so you get pkgA-1.0/pkgB-1.0/module.html
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18:36:20	<boxscape>	interestingly the source link for Bool points to a different package (ghc-prim) https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/Data-Bool.html#t:Bool
18:36:22	<boxscape>	but it 404s
18:36:40	<boxscape>	tomsmeding oh it does exactly what you're saying
18:37:21	<tomsmeding>	oh the whole link is also wrong
18:37:41	<tomsmeding>	it goes to base-4.15.0.0/ghc-prim-0.7.0/src/GHC-Types.html#Bool but the correct path is ghc-prim-0.7.0/docs/src/GHC-Types.html#Bool
18:37:44	<tomsmeding>	note the /docs/
18:37:46	<boxscape>	yeah
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18:38:01	<tomsmeding>	wonder how that happens
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18:45:20	<zzz>	can i have an IntMap where the keys are newtype T = T Int ?]
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18:46:08	<xerox>	zzz: I use this for that purpose https://github.com/minoki/unboxing-vector
18:47:09	<xerox>	(it's not exactly what you asked for if the container being a Map matters more than it being indexed with a newtype transparently)
18:47:17	<jco>	Hello, I'm fooling around a bit with trying to convert .edn to .json. Is there a better way to handle the possibility of error when loading a file, than what I do here: http://ix.io/3pnN? I created a `ExceptT` type alias there, to be able to just `throwError` if anything goes wrong.
18:50:06	<zzz>	xerox: thanks im taking a look. however i really just wanted a newtype indexed IntMap
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18:52:02	<lyxia>	jco: you could throw the exception in IO
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18:57:50	<jco>	lyxia: OK, makes it bit simpler yes.
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19:01:37	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: I cant help but wonder whether ^ is meaningful to delYsid.
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19:03:02	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: I wondered that too after sending the message
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19:05:50	<jco>	OK, another question, more related to how to avoid pyramids of doom when doing error handling: http://ix.io/3pnX. There's a better way to write that, right?
19:08:28	<lyxia>	Re the haddock tooltips issue, it's a known issue https://github.com/haskell/haddock/issues/1250
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19:31:02	<infandum>	I have converted my program to use optparse-applicative. Upon testing, I noticed I accidentally had "option auto" instead of "option str" (or strOption). Yet this bypassed the compilier. Is there a way to type-check this bug?
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19:32:10	<infandum>	(there are many, many options and will take a while to test them all)
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19:33:07	<dminuoso>	infandum: By the way, did you get my message regarding optparse-generic?
19:34:00	<dminuoso>	infandum: And no, there's no easy way.
19:34:48	<dminuoso>	I'd just avoid `option auto` to begin with, Read is not what you'd likely want
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19:41:12	<dminuoso>	Recall, that deriving generated Show is supposed to generate syntactically correct Haskell expressions that correspond to the value, and Read that would parse those back into values.
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19:46:38	<xerox>	anybody else getting ghcid stuck after the first try, no reload, after upgrading to 8.10.5?
19:47:18	<xerox>	not even printing the "All good."
19:47:34	<jco>	OK, found the answer to my own question. Pyramid of doom avoided with the help of `hoistEither` from the `errors` library. I like it: http://ix.io/3pob.
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19:51:05	<infandum>	dminuoso: I did (after I just resigned on), but it expired because I took too long. However, I just converted over to optparse-applicative as I could not figure it out and there seemed to be more features with optparse-applicative (but more boilerplate as well).
19:51:38	<dminuoso>	infandum: https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/d68598ffb112cbe61c3759a530e2d837
19:52:01	<dminuoso>	You can use use both together
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19:54:23	<ski>	@type maybe empty pure
19:54:24	<lambdabot>	Alternative f => Maybe a -> f a
19:54:25	<ski>	@type maybe mzero return
19:54:26	<lambdabot>	MonadPlus m => Maybe a -> m a
19:54:28	<ski>	@type either throwError return
19:54:28	<lambdabot>	MonadError e m => Either e a -> m a
19:54:51	<infandum>	dminuoso: I see, the instances were what I was missing
19:55:01	<infandum>	You should submit that to optparse-generic documentation
19:55:34	<dminuoso>	infandum: The trick is also the newtype wrapper. At that point you might as well submit the code itself.
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20:00:08	<infandum>	dminuoso: You seem very knowledgeable on this -- is it possible to have the same option name have different help text (and even type) in different entrypoints in optparse-generic? It's possible in optparse-applicative it seems but not in optparse-generic.
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20:00:46	<dminuoso>	Why shouldn't it be possible?
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20:00:58	<infandum>	like: command subcommand1 --arg string and command subcommand2 --arg int?
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20:01:12	<dminuoso>	I don't see a reason why it wouldn't work.
20:01:21	<infandum>	Because the compiler states that within the same record there are two different definitions
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20:01:34	<infandum>	or, between the two
20:01:37	<dminuoso>	Ah I see. Use my Nested newtype wrapper to help out.
20:02:23	<dminuoso>	You'd create a separate data type for each command, call it `data RC1 = RC1 { arg :: Int <?> "fancy number" }` and `data RC2 = RC2 { arg :: String <?> "fancy string" }`
20:02:40	<dminuoso>	With OverloadedRecordFields enabled, these could even reside in the same module
20:03:08	<dminuoso>	And then your command data type would just be `data C = C1 (Nested RC1) \| C2 (Nested RC2)`
20:03:32	<dminuoso>	Of course with each passing step you start accomulate a lot of cruft just to please the weird ergonomics of optparse-generic with non-obvious type level tricks
20:03:40	<dminuoso>	Better to just write `optparse-applicative` parsers.
20:04:16	<infandum>	which is ironic as optparse-generic is supposed to make the writing faster haha
20:04:22	<infandum>	still, very interesting stuff!
20:04:35	×	lavaman quits (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
20:04:49	<dminuoso>	I can see how optparse-generic is nice to some people when want to quickly get some option parsing with minimal effort.
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20:05:05	<dminuoso>	I might even use it for some parsers
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20:05:27	<dminuoso>	As long as I'm ready to switch to optparse-applicative directly. Recall, you can combine/mix these freely, best of both worlds.
20:05:28	<infandum>	yeah, I converted a while back to optparse-generic, but for this huge program with a lot of features and entrypoints it is a little unwieldy
20:06:25	<dminuoso>	I do a similar thing with Aeson in one of my programs. About 90% of the instances are generated with generics (with deriving-aeson, for extra convenience), but I dont shy away from writing out 10% by hand because the generics dont do what I want.
20:06:42	<dminuoso>	Or because I wanted to decouple the public representation from the internal one
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20:08:24	<dminuoso>	infandum: Check out `parseRecord` from otpparse-generic. You can use these instances with the data types where it works, and then use `parseRecord` to glue this into your hand-written rest.
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20:12:37	<delYsid>	sm[m]: I am not on Discourse, mostly does to accessibility :-)
20:12:48	<delYsid>	s/does/due/
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20:13:32	<sm[m]>	ack
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20:52:41	<jneira>	i think lambdabot got bored in #haskell-es
20:53:05	<jneira>	how can i convince it to return? :-)
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20:55:17	<maerwald>	hmm, there's no #haskell.de anymore?
20:56:00	<monochrom>	Perchance it's renamed to #haskell-de? Or the people in the original #haskell.de don't bother?
20:56:19	<ski>	(or are slow to react, perchance)
20:56:28	<maerwald>	#haskell-de also empty
20:56:39	<jneira>	iirc channel names were normalized in the igration
20:56:42	<monochrom>	I know that #haskell.tw took this relocation chance to rename to #haskell-tw
20:57:34	<monochrom>	Unix philosophy that "move" and "rename" are the same thing >:)
20:57:36	<ski>	it was suggested that `#haskell-*' would be the proper way, to fall under the same jurisdiction
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20:59:03	<ski>	(this also happened to `#haskell.se' -> `#haskell-se', and `#haskell.scandinavian' -> `#haskell-scandinavian')
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20:59:06	<monochrom>	Yeah, libera and even previous freenode namespace policy prefers hypthen. But bear in mind that these are just manually followed social constructs, exceptions can happen and don't really fail any algorithm.
20:59:52	<maerwald>	well, I tried all permutations
21:01:52	<maerwald>	I'm losing my mother tongue to covid, so I thought maybe...
21:03:02	<monochrom>	I thought covid didn't attack tongues... >:)
21:03:13	<monochrom>	your mother lungs, sure >:)
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21:04:53	<maerwald>	ok, so who can give me OP in #haskell-de
21:04:58	<maerwald>	I'll talk to myself
21:05:08	<maerwald>	(in german)
21:05:22	<geekosaur>	see #haskell-ops
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21:07:35	<pavonia>	Weird. There's even a Czech & Slovak sub-channel, but they forgot about the Germans? :o
21:07:51	<maerwald>	ZE germanz
21:08:04	→	dhil joins (~dhil@80.208.56.181)
21:08:39	<maerwald>	maybe they're all on freenode?
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21:10:41	<ski>	there's two people in the old #haskell.de
21:10:53	<ski>	(one might be ChanServ, i guess)
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21:11:23	<pavonia>	How many used to be there before the split?
21:12:18	<ski>	no idea
21:12:25	<ski>	(never been in there)
21:12:38	ski	looks at maerwald
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21:14:37	<maerwald>	never been there either
21:15:46	<pavonia>	:D
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21:19:46	<ski>	> sum (zipWith ((fromEnum .) . (/=)) "pavonia" "favonia")
21:19:47	<lambdabot>	1
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21:23:08	pavonia	should rename to phavonia for even more confusion
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21:24:06	<monochrom>	I heard that sometimes "v" means "b" and/or vice versa.
21:24:35	<monochrom>	or maybe "v" means "beta"
21:24:50	<favonia>	favonia
21:24:50	<favonia>	oops sorry for misconfiguration
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21:25:39	<monochrom>	φαβoνια
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21:28:09	<tomsmeding>	shapr: unwitting entry to the IOHCC https://gist.github.com/vivshaw/2d25a541c0ff7c689474865e8a75c520
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21:33:58	juri__	is now known as juri_
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21:35:47	<shapr>	tomsmeding: whoa, that's nice
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21:38:09	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: Mmm, your ircbrowse feels like it has become clunky with all that styling. What happened to the good old raw text?
21:38:20	<dminuoso>	https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/haskell/2021/01/04 is hard to read
21:39:51	<boxscape>	is that partially just a bug? https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/haskell/2021/01/05 is one line per message instead of 3
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21:41:24	<dminuoso>	boxscape: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pzckbNyqfc
21:41:43	<boxscape>	:)
21:44:53	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: that's your browser and it's the fault of boxscape https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/haskell/2021/01/04?id=235938#trid235938
21:45:07	<boxscape>	oh no
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21:45:12	<tomsmeding>	;)
21:45:17	<boxscape>	I blame yahb
21:45:33	<tomsmeding>	By the way I changed no styling, so if anything changed in that regard that's accidental
21:45:34	<mniip>	who dares
21:45:48	<tomsmeding>	mniip: follow the link
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21:46:01	<mniip>	sounds like a personal problem to be tbh
21:46:03	<mniip>	:P
21:46:15	<boxscape>	I'll handle it in DMs with yahb
21:46:31	<tomsmeding>	:p
21:47:01	<tomsmeding>	I guess some fixed column widths can fix this; I can experiment later
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21:55:35	ski	idly wonders where mauke are
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22:33:16	<xerox>	anybody tried using ghcid on mac aarch64? something is broken and I can't figure out what
22:33:35	<maerwald>	you might be the first person
22:35:05	<xerox>	if I use ghcup to give me ghc and cabal for x64, install ghcid, and then switch to ghc and cabal for arm64, then if I have alias cabal="arch -arm64 cabal" it works, if I go ahead and cabal install ghcid from there, it always gets stuck when using it, in a couple different curious ways
22:36:03	<xerox>	--poll works but fsnotify, the default, doens't seem to... except if you run it with --verbose, then it does work with notifications! (except now it's unreadable because the output is very dense and meant for debugging) I'm stumped
22:36:04	<maerwald>	yeah, I'm working on native mac aarch64 support, but we don't even have enough CI runners
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22:37:48	<xerox>	I wish I was able to debug this more but I'm out of ideas
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23:34:55	<juri_>	anyone want to tell me i'm wrong? https://github.com/Haskell-Things/HSlice/pull/35#issuecomment-858158929
23:36:02	<juri_>	tl;dr: there's a class of warning that, when it covers code you maintain, you can do something about, and can make your code faster. when it's not your code it's warning about, there's nothing you can do about it.
23:36:13	<juri_>	the UX on this sucks.
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23:47:50	<glguy>	juri_: isn't that just a case of "don't compile your dependencies with a bunch of warnings turned on"?
23:48:15	<glguy>	Oh, I guess it's your code, but referring to something outside your package?
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All times are in UTC on 2021-06-09.