Logs on 2021-06-17 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:01:06 | <ecameron[m]> | Ah, got it. It was the spaces, thanks |
| 00:01:37 | <Axman6> | this is the main reason people pretty quickly implement lexers |
| 00:03:33 | <ecameron[m]> | applicative/monadic parsers still look like magic, just in the type of syntax they provide. I whenever I see a type like `String -> [(a, String)]` in a type I always wonder how you would think to do that and know that it's applicative implementation is going to be helpful |
| 00:04:03 | <ecameron[m]> | But I guess it's just familiarity with that style of coding? |
| 00:04:31 | <geekosaur> | familiarity counts for a lot, yes |
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| 00:05:09 | <Axman6> | yeah, it takes a while but you will soon see a lot of parsers are actually just Applicative; it's not huntil you need to do things like "parse a length N, and then parse N things" you don't actually need Monad |
| 00:06:15 | <Axman6> | like your mult parser could be: mult = Mult <$> string "mul" *> skipSpaces *> expr <*> expr (I think) |
| 00:06:58 | <ecameron[m]> | sure, or use ApplicativeDo extension |
| 00:07:16 | <Axman6> | why bother with the extra noise though? |
| 00:07:42 | <ecameron[m]> | the do syntax is easier to read than the applicative style to my eyes |
| 00:09:15 | <Axman6> | if laid out better than IRC allows, the applicative version often reads just as clearly, without the pain of having to name arguments |
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| 00:12:10 | <geekosaur> | I also find do syntax easier to read, but I trust ApplicativeDo about as far as I can throw it, so. |
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| 00:25:27 | <Axman6> | There are definitely times when monadic style helps, but for small functions applicative style can help a lot: parens = "(" *> expr <* skipSpaces <* ")" is pretty clean |
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| 02:13:16 | <jmct> | Anyone know of good DSLs for x86_64 (any modern ISS would likely work for my purposes)? |
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| 02:36:16 | <iridescent> | hi, what does :&~ operator mean? |
| 02:36:54 | <iridescent> | i'm reading code and saw this: data Network = O Weights | Weights :&~ Network |
| 02:38:18 | <int-e> | iridescent: it's a constructor name |
| 02:38:25 | <ecameron[m]> | It's probably an infix type defined in the whatever you're reading |
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| 02:40:08 | <int-e> | ecameron[m]: no, it's a data constructor for the Network datatype |
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| 02:43:10 | <iridescent> | what do you guys think about dependent types for machine learning :) |
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| 02:47:08 | <ecameron[m]> | int-e: right yeah, mixed the 'data' and 'type' constructor terms |
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| 03:56:44 | <jophish> | <iridescent "what do you guys think about dep"> FWIW, in the machine learning I've done I've greatly preferred Python to Haskell, as much as it pains me to say it |
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| 03:57:07 | <jophish> | but I think this is much less to do with the type system than the huge amount of existing code/examples available for python |
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| 03:57:54 | <jophish> | however, many ML programs are run-once where every code path is traversed, so imo types don't really buy you much (as you'll almost certainly discover any errors at runtime) |
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| 04:10:39 | <Axman6> | iiis that from Grenade? if not, you should look at Grenade (and also read jle's blog post on using the singletons library, which uses similar ideas as an example) |
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| 04:16:27 | <jophish> | ah, mainly from tensorflow |
| 04:16:31 | <jophish> | haven't tried grenade |
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| 04:39:33 | <Axman6> | one day I'mm make the RPG library which uses Accelerate as a backend for Grenade |
| 04:41:03 | <Axman6> | ll* |
| 04:42:37 | <Axman6> | jophish: https://blog.jle.im/entry/practical-dependent-types-in-haskell-1.html |
| 04:42:50 | <Axman6> | shame iridescent left |
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| 04:44:52 | <int-e> | . o O ( wtb: slice syntax for type annotations. bar . (:: Int) . foo ) |
| 04:45:14 | <Axman6> | wasn't that a proposal at some point? |
| 04:45:24 | <Axman6> | also, don't type applications usually get you that? |
| 04:46:01 | <int-e> | Maybe but not with :: |
| 04:46:37 | <int-e> | id @Int just doesn't read the same |
| 04:46:44 | <jophish> | `id @Int`? |
| 04:46:48 | <jophish> | haha |
| 04:46:50 | <Axman6> | bar @Int . foo though |
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| 04:47:15 | <int-e> | Axman6: that's not reliable |
| 04:47:27 | <Axman6> | Or, if someone made the type vars come in a shitty order, bar @_ @_ @_ @_ @Int . foo |
| 04:47:50 | <int-e> | Imagine bar :: F a -> a where F is a type family. |
| 04:48:06 | <int-e> | you can't even rely on the type to feature at all |
| 04:48:16 | <Axman6> | so gross |
| 04:48:39 | <Axman6> | retype bar to (b ~ F a) => b -> a |
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| 04:48:41 | <int-e> | though maybe in that case you'll need to fix the a anyway, so this may be a strawperson |
| 04:48:52 | <Axman6> | yeah |
| 04:49:34 | <Axman6> | I'll have no human, agriculture hybrids here! |
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| 05:51:47 | <Axman6> | Huh, looks like they actually did kill Freenode, amazing: https://isfreenodedeadyet.com |
| 05:52:06 | <Axman6> | I'm not sure I've ever seen an isXyet website say yes |
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| 05:55:40 | <Axman6> | Hadn't seen the FSF's decision, but before I left they seemed to be trying to be as diplomatic as possible, but this looks like it's ended: https://www.fsf.org/news/update-to-the-fsf-and-gnus-plan-to-move-irc-channels-to-libera.chat |
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| 07:18:56 | <tomsmeding> | siers: Cheers! |
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| 07:25:24 | <kuribas> | I wrote about a 1000 lines of code, with the model and queries. The queries worked from the first time when testing on the REPL. |
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| 07:25:58 | <kuribas> | I am known as the "crazy haskell zealot", I'd like to see them show this in another language... |
| 07:26:21 | <kuribas> | I don't get code right the first time in lisp/java/python/... |
| 07:26:37 | <kuribas> | we don't even get code right in production. |
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| 07:27:00 | <kuribas> | Stuff just breaks after refactorings, dispite a currently very large testing setup. |
| 07:27:00 | <Lycurgus> | not safety critical i presume |
| 07:27:16 | <kuribas> | Lycurgus: it isn't. |
| 07:27:26 | <kuribas> | Lycurgus: but if you ask me, it costs the company money. |
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| 07:28:02 | <kuribas> | Since bugs affect the frontend team (which is outsourced), takes more time to communicate those bugs, delays the product for the customer, who only pays when they get the feature. |
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| 07:28:11 | <Lycurgus> | well not breaking stuff in production ofc predates hs |
| 07:28:50 | <kuribas> | Lycurgus: if you spend a lot of time testing before releasing... |
| 07:28:54 | <kuribas> | We have a short cycle. |
| 07:29:36 | <Lycurgus> | that and move fast and break stuff is or just was an ethos |
| 07:30:28 | <kuribas> | I like that philosophy. I just don't like when it breaks because the tooling, language or libraries are poor. |
| 07:30:39 | <Lycurgus> | believe it or don't software development in general is much more reliable and generally successful at the project level than it was a generation ago |
| 07:30:57 | <kuribas> | because of move fast? |
| 07:30:58 | <Lycurgus> | that with a concomittant narrowing of scope |
| 07:31:16 | <Lycurgus> | no it's just maturity of the field |
| 07:31:45 | <Lycurgus> | advance and intensification and less wild ass shit |
| 07:31:55 | <kuribas> | sure, I think being late because you refactor code to be clean, or because you don't have well defined scope and overly generalize, are two very different things. |
| 07:32:10 | <kuribas> | The first isn't really "being late". |
| 07:32:35 | <Lycurgus> | well late used to mean never a lot of times |
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| 07:33:09 | <kuribas> | I mean, I get this explanation, types and abstractions are overhead and delay the project, because you don't focus on business logic. |
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| 07:33:26 | <kuribas> | But that argument is flawed, because your abstraction and types should flow from the business logic. |
| 07:33:28 | <Lycurgus> | in the late nineties I worked on a major refactoring of telephone systems customer service systems |
| 07:33:40 | <Lycurgus> | it was a billion dollar project |
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| 07:33:48 | <Lycurgus> | that failed |
| 07:34:20 | <Lycurgus> | by the predecessor of verizon (nynex) |
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| 07:35:55 | <Lycurgus> | well the concerns of the hs community are not in general those of business |
| 07:36:39 | <Lycurgus> | which has achieved the end goals of reliability and so forth by more traditional engineering practicss |
| 07:37:14 | <kuribas> | reliability for us seem to mean mostly, iterate until there are no more bugs. |
| 07:37:23 | <Lycurgus> | and continues to do so |
| 07:38:14 | <kuribas> | sure, the initial effort to model the program is often harder with static types, and takes a bit more time. |
| 07:39:01 | <kuribas> | By harder, I mean doing it type safe, where in java or lisp you would use NULL, or nil, partial hashmaps etc. |
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| 07:39:50 | <Lycurgus> | that paper by sm oder on OOHaskell and dynamic exception types, if you know of it, in what sense are the types dynamic? |
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| 07:40:31 | <kuribas> | I don't know OOHaskell |
| 07:40:46 | <Lycurgus> | ah, it's from the turn of the century |
| 07:41:01 | <kuribas> | Java is technically statically typed, but it leaves a lot of room for runtime errors. |
| 07:41:15 | <Lycurgus> | b4 c. '06 or so when hs started to become really practical |
| 07:41:32 | <Lycurgus> | and didn need going forward to suck up to OO |
| 07:41:50 | <kuribas> | IMO it's not haskell, but composability which makes your programs robust. Haskell is just a language that makes composability much easier. Java makes it rather hard. |
| 07:41:55 | <kuribas> | Objects don't compose well. |
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| 07:42:49 | <Lycurgus> | hs, erlang, ocaml in rough order of popularity |
| 07:43:07 | <Lycurgus> | it's still a small fraction of global software production |
| 07:43:21 | <Lycurgus> | maybe 1 or 2 % tops |
| 07:43:38 | <Lycurgus> | for all of em together |
| 07:43:58 | <kuribas> | I am not saying reliable software engineering is not possible in mainstream language, I am just saying it is easier in haskell. |
| 07:44:19 | <Lycurgus> | easier for you |
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| 07:44:42 | <Lycurgus> | easier in principal for the pure fps |
| 07:44:55 | <Lycurgus> | easier in fact and practice is another matter |
| 07:45:04 | <Lycurgus> | *in principle |
| 07:45:15 | <kuribas> | yeah, it may not be for everyone. |
| 07:45:21 | <kuribas> | But you don't know unless you try. |
| 07:45:52 | <kuribas> | but software engineering is hard in any language, ecosystem. |
| 07:46:06 | <kuribas> | A lot of ecosystems just pretend it is easy. Haskell doesn't. |
| 07:46:17 | <Lycurgus> | a thing which would be decisive and which I have intentions for |
| 07:46:34 | <Lycurgus> | is if low level programming, end programming is automated |
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| 07:46:57 | <kuribas> | Monads and Applicatives sound like adding complexity on top of it, but in fact they allow you to reduce complexity. |
| 07:47:02 | <Lycurgus> | in that case training programmers for hs is eliminated as an issue |
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| 07:48:32 | <kuribas> | training for hs is an investment. |
| 07:48:40 | <kuribas> | it's a nonzero cost indeed. |
| 07:48:50 | <kuribas> | but companies have money for training. |
| 07:49:00 | <Lycurgus> | like in G/Labview, where people who've pinned their careers to it don't know or care how it produces code |
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| 07:49:56 | <Lycurgus> | they have money for training but not the kind of reeducation hs calls for |
| 07:51:05 | <kuribas> | I think we can train for anything, as long as we show it helps for the job. |
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| 07:51:29 | <Lycurgus> | maybe in central eu oder, not here (US) |
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| 07:52:41 | <kuribas> | US is crazy |
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| 07:52:50 | <Lycurgus> | ikr? |
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| 07:53:17 | <Lycurgus> | crazy ol bastards |
| 07:53:23 | <kuribas> | I would just be independend in the US, or join a haskell company, rather than hoping for them to accept haskell. |
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| 07:54:22 | <Lycurgus> | well FP is huge right now and hs is known as the first among equals in it |
| 07:55:01 | <Lycurgus> | but in the actually existing computing commercial cultures it's mostly biz as usual for the current state of development |
| 07:55:35 | <Lycurgus> | shops will humor you up to a point |
| 07:55:44 | <kuribas> | I mean, Java is a valid choice. |
| 07:55:52 | <Lycurgus> | maybe a lil thing here in hs to keep you happy |
| 07:56:06 | <Lycurgus> | while you bitch about java or c# or php |
| 07:56:13 | <Franciman> | fp is dumbed down right now |
| 07:56:20 | <Lycurgus> | *hera or there |
| 07:56:26 | <kuribas> | Having a bunch of mediocre Java engineers, and a experienced team lead to get it in good directions, is a valid strategy. |
| 07:56:33 | <kuribas> | It's just not one I would like to be part of. |
| 07:56:47 | <kuribas> | Franciman: what do you mean? |
| 07:56:52 | <Franciman> | sorry |
| 07:57:02 | <Franciman> | I wrote in the wrong channel |
| 07:57:05 | <Franciman> | :P |
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| 09:49:38 | <gentauro> | Franciman: `fp` as in functional programming? |
| 09:50:59 | <gentauro> | 09:43 < kuribas> I am not saying reliable software engineering is not possible in mainstream language, I am just saying it is easier in haskell |
| 09:51:20 | <gentauro> | kuribas: what is your bullet-proof handle of `space-leaks` in Haskell? Could you please share. Thx |
| 09:51:42 | <kuribas> | gentauro: not writing them? |
| 09:52:13 | <kuribas> | gentauro: 1) don't use foldl, sum, product, ... 2) use strict accumulators. |
| 09:52:16 | <gentauro> | kuribas: you claim that `reliable software engineering` is easier in Haskell. I might differ in that opinion |
| 09:52:24 | <gentauro> | mostly cos of space/mem-leaks |
| 09:52:27 | <Franciman> | gentauro: yesp, but I was writing in another channel about fp without deependent types |
| 09:52:48 | <kuribas> | gentauro: "it depends" |
| 09:52:59 | <gentauro> | kuribas: you are stating the obvious |
| 09:53:19 | <gentauro> | the problem is when something becomes big, it's "very" difficult to see what is wrong |
| 09:53:33 | <gentauro> | the compiler doesn't help you … |
| 09:53:39 | <kuribas> | gentauro: handling data model rich transformations, doing a lot of parsing, etc.. I find it much easier in haskell. |
| 09:54:10 | <gentauro> | and in my own experience, I end up adding a lot of `seq`'s in the code until the space/mem-leak seems to dissapear |
| 09:54:20 | <kuribas> | gentauro: doing numerical computations, having complicated algorithms, not so much. But usually it's a mix. |
| 09:54:27 | <gentauro> | but it's "not easy". It's pretty annoying tbh |
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| 09:54:46 | <gentauro> | 11:53 < kuribas> gentauro: handling data model rich transformations, doing a lot of parsing, etc.. I find it much easier in haskell |
| 09:54:51 | <gentauro> | I agree to some extend |
| 09:54:59 | <kuribas> | gentauro: I am a bug supporter of stateless services. Put your state in a database or redis or so... |
| 09:55:00 | gentauro | mostly parsing |
| 09:55:30 | <kuribas> | gentauro: the haskell GC is not optimal for having lot's of live memory |
| 09:55:46 | <gentauro> | kuribas: Haskell is not with lazy-IO |
| 09:55:53 | gentauro | having a lot of files "open" |
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| 09:56:04 | gentauro | unless you make that IO-operation strict |
| 09:56:17 | <kuribas> | gentauro: also, use a streaming abstraction, not lazy-IO |
| 09:56:26 | <gentauro> | I guess my point is, Haskell is not a language that you just "ship" if it compiles |
| 09:56:29 | <kuribas> | gentauro: avoid lists for bulk processing. |
| 09:56:39 | <gentauro> | you need to "stress" test it |
| 09:56:44 | <juri_> | gentauro: no languages are. |
| 09:57:09 | <kuribas> | gentauro: haskell is not a silver bullet. It requires you knowing what you are doing. |
| 09:57:19 | <gentauro> | kuribas: like every other language |
| 09:57:29 | <juri_> | hit your code with stan. it checks for space leaks. |
| 09:57:33 | <gentauro> | but, we shouldn't oversell it, as "easier" |
| 09:57:46 | <gentauro> | juri_: `stan`? linke pls |
| 09:57:51 | <gentauro> | s/linke/link/ |
| 09:58:10 | <juri_> | https://github.com/kowainik/stan |
| 09:58:40 | <juri_> | I've been scrubbing my code for weeks, and am only about halfway through the things stan warned me about. |
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| 09:58:55 | <gentauro> | juri_: nice !!! |
| 09:58:57 | <kuribas> | gentauro: I haven't yet had any space leaks. But I am careful about the code I write. |
| 09:59:01 | <gentauro> | didn't knew that tool |
| 09:59:12 | <kuribas> | gentauro: if it needs to be fast, I inspect the core. |
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| 09:59:25 | <juri_> | stan, hlint, weeder... then ship. :P |
| 09:59:38 | <gentauro> | kuribas: and that's the reason I ask for you `bullet-proof` approach to write Haskell. "Sharing in caring" ;) |
| 09:59:39 | <kuribas> | gentauro: and I think it's a good design to go stateless. That also means your service can restart quicker. |
| 10:01:04 | <kuribas> | gentauro: ghc is not magical. Like any language, understanding what code does requires testing, inspection, bench-marking etc... |
| 10:01:09 | <gentauro> | kuribas: I mostly write "minimalist and modular" bin tools (Unix philosophy) |
| 10:01:40 | <gentauro> | sometimes I need `mem-state` |
| 10:02:28 | <kuribas> | but it is true that you trade higher level programming, more safe and declarative code, for a execution model that is harder to understand. |
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| 10:05:20 | <kuribas> | gentauro: can you show me an example where you needed a lot of work to avoid space leaks? |
| 10:05:43 | <kuribas> | like adding seq |
| 10:06:03 | <gentauro> | kuribas: sure http://blog.stermon.com/articles/2020/04/06/haskell-data-octet-nand-smaller-but-slower.html |
| 10:06:06 | <gentauro> | xD |
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| 10:06:21 | <gentauro> | kuribas: just search for `seq` |
| 10:06:39 | <gentauro> | I'm gonna run the `stan` tool against that code |
| 10:06:57 | <gentauro> | I'm guessing that `stan` will probably "give up" xD |
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| 10:08:34 | <kuribas> | gentauro: that looks pretty contrived code |
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| 10:09:25 | <kuribas> | "No arithmetic computations are done by the CPU as all operations are based on the NAND logic gate, which is implemented as a pattern matched function." |
| 10:09:36 | <kuribas> | That sounds hardly like something I would want in production code. |
| 10:09:39 | <kuribas> | more like an experiment. |
| 10:10:43 | <gentauro> | kuribas: do you have any exp with FHE? |
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| 10:10:51 | <kuribas> | no |
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| 10:11:48 | <gentauro> | fair enough |
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| 10:12:44 | <kuribas> | gentauro: that giant mapping function smells badly |
| 10:12:53 | <Square> | For your low user count app / not massive IO, my gut feeling is that Haskell does great. Ive had Haskell (2-player) game + site running for 3 years and not experienced any wierd issues. Its semi complicated in how has multiple WebSocket messaging channels etc. |
| 10:13:18 | <Square> | how it hase* |
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| 10:14:33 | <kuribas> | indeed |
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| 10:19:02 | <gentauro> | kuribas: if you can re-write the code, so it still use not arithmetic op's, I would <3 to see it :) |
| 10:19:53 | <kuribas> | gentauro: I don't need arbitrary restrictions in code I write. |
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| 10:24:25 | <Square> | gentauro, the page you linked makes chrome unhappy. Maybe because its long/big page.. ie http://blog.stermon.com/articles/2020/04/06/haskell-data-octet-nand-smaller-but-slower.html |
| 10:26:15 | <gentauro> | Square: indeed |
| 10:26:36 | <gentauro> | Square: if you open the v1, it will probably crash Chrome xD |
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| 10:26:55 | <gentauro> | http://blog.stermon.com/articles/2020/03/30/haskell-data-octet-safe-idiomatic-and-big.html xD |
| 10:27:06 | <Square> | no thanks =D |
| 10:28:15 | <gentauro> | xD |
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| 10:42:54 | <kuribas> | gentauro: I was expecting you to show me an example from your own code, where you detected a spaceleak and needed a lot of annotations in order to actually make it work, not some contrived experiment under arbitrary restrictions. |
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| 11:06:32 | <gentauro> | kuribas: well it is my code … |
| 11:06:56 | <gentauro> | and it had a lot of space leaks so I injected `seq` everywhere … |
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| 11:14:01 | <kuribas> | gentauro: so... just use arithmetic ops, or Data.Bits? |
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| 11:30:58 | <tomsmeding> | bloody hell that's some large pattern matches :p |
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| 11:32:37 | <tomsmeding> | incidentally firefox has no trouble whatsoever, but I do kind of doubt the utility of this representation of a Word8 :p |
| 11:32:43 | <juri_> | gentauro: hit it with stan. ;) |
| 11:33:10 | <tomsmeding> | I know of the existence of homomorphic encryption (if that's what FHE refers to), but not much more, and I don't see the relation :D |
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| 11:34:40 | <int-e> | gentauro: that addition is some truly cursed code |
| 11:35:01 | <int-e> | (and the remaining binary arithmetic operations) |
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| 11:36:08 | <int-e> | Though maybe I should've stopped reading after the data declarion. |
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| 11:40:37 | <tomsmeding> | gentauro: any reason why there should not be any arithmetic operations? |
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| 11:41:48 | <tomsmeding> | if you use a binary representation you can implement basic arithmetic ops manually on that in asymptotically constant space instead of exponential in the number of bits |
| 11:41:54 | <tomsmeding> | s/space/code/ |
| 11:42:14 | <tomsmeding> | but fromEnum and toEnum will necessarily still have either an enumeration of your data type or usage of Int ops, by their nature |
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| 11:55:45 | <merijn> | Enum is just a terrible class, tbh >.> |
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| 11:56:40 | <Cale> | It's two okay classes that have been inexplicably stapled together |
| 11:57:27 | <exarkun> | Why are the links on https://www.stackage.org/lts-16.31/hoogle?q=Test.Hspec.Wai to package versions from lts-18.0 :/ |
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| 11:59:38 | <Cale> | gentauro, tomsmeding: Whenever you have a type with more constructors than you will ever write case expressions pattern matching on that type, my usual rule of thumb is to consider reworking the type as a record of the conclusions of those case expressions (or possibly less than that, if you can get away with less) |
| 12:00:00 | <merijn> | exarkun: It says it's searching lts-18 at the top too |
| 12:00:12 | <merijn> | Why that happens for lts-16.31, who knows :p |
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| 12:00:50 | <merijn> | Looks like their hoogle install just indexes the latest lts |
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| 12:46:44 | <ente_> | I am very new to haskell (although I have used other functional languages quite a bit) and would like to get started developing web apps (JSON REST APIs for now) in haskell. I have found ihp (which I could not install) and yesod for which I can not find a small/minimal example. When creating a new project using the quick start guide, there is a whole lot of bloat showcasing all the features and I |
| 12:46:46 | <ente_> | don't know what is safe to delete etc. If someone could recommend any resources on getting started with yesod for non-html I would be very thankful :) |
| 12:52:50 | <Taneb> | ente_: for simple HTTP APIs, I'd suggest something like scotty. |
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| 12:53:29 | <Taneb> | If you're comfortable with very fancy type stuff (which if you're new to Haskell you probably won't be), servant is very nice but might be hard to figure out how to use |
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| 12:57:00 | <Hecate> | Scotty good |
| 12:57:04 | <Hecate> | Servant good but also very hard |
| 12:57:15 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | ente_: are you absolutely set on using yesod? I would also recommend something like Scotty to start you off |
| 12:57:23 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | especially if you haven't done much haskell before |
| 12:57:35 | <ente_> | vaibhavsagar[m]: No, I have no experience so I don't care |
| 12:57:52 | <[exa]> | ente_: highly recommend scotty, it's the easiest one to start with and usually holds up even for pretty large projects |
| 12:58:12 | <[exa]> | ente_: especially if it's just REST APIs |
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| 12:58:30 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | here's a recent tutorial: https://www.stackbuilders.com/tutorials/haskell/getting-started-with-haskell-projects-using-scotty/ |
| 12:58:39 | <ente_> | ty <3 |
| 12:58:50 | <ente_> | that seems nice thank you |
| 12:59:00 | <ente_> | (the tutorial)_ |
| 12:59:13 | <exarkun> | is it possible to have stack _optionally_ use nix to manage dependencies, if it is installed, but otherwise just try to build using what's on the system if not? |
| 12:59:28 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | no |
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| 12:59:43 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | we were just talking about this in the Nix Haskell channel |
| 13:00:02 | <ente_> | is nix popular with haskell? I have seen projects use it |
| 13:00:09 | <ente_> | Isn't it a linux distro? |
| 13:00:13 | <merijn> | ente_: There is a small cult |
| 13:00:18 | <exarkun> | nixos is a linux distro |
| 13:00:25 | <[exa]> | ente_: re "haskell beginner"-- you might need to get some background on monads to actually be productive with this (the routing is a monad but looks declaratively, and sometimes you'll need liftIO to do useful stuff from within the "Action" environment you get for handling your routes) |
| 13:00:28 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | to copy the message I sent there: "Stack's Nix integration uses Nix to provide non-Haskell system dependencies (like `zlib`) in a `nix shell` environment and then executes a normal `stack build` in that environment" |
| 13:00:33 | <merijn> | ente_: I don't think it's that big, but it's...quite loud :p |
| 13:00:48 | <merijn> | exarkun: That sounds...counter-intuitive (stack + nix) |
| 13:01:01 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | ente_: yes, some haskell devs use it for development |
| 13:01:06 | <merijn> | exarkun: Because those two are pretty directly opposed |
| 13:01:19 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | package management is difficult with many languages |
| 13:01:24 | <exarkun> | merijn: I didn't add the nix-based features to stack. :) |
| 13:01:39 | <exarkun> | merijn: I just want it to be easy to build my software whether someone is on nixos or not |
| 13:01:45 | <[exa]> | ente_: nix is one good way to manage the (problematic) dependencies and rebuilds of packages and have a stable environment; luckily cabal now does most of that right automagically itself |
| 13:01:55 | <merijn> | exarkun: Wait, which Nix features are you referring too? |
| 13:02:03 | <merijn> | exarkun: Pretty sure stack does not use Nix at all |
| 13:02:13 | <exarkun> | merijn: The `nix` stanza that's allowed in stack.yaml |
| 13:02:23 | <exarkun> | merijn: vaibhavsagar[m] summarized it just above |
| 13:02:44 | <merijn> | ah, you wanna dynamically decide to toggle it on |
| 13:02:51 | <merijn> | Doubt that's implemented, tbh |
| 13:02:55 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/nix_integration/ |
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| 13:03:14 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | sounds like exarkun wants to use it for some dependencies but not others |
| 13:03:24 | <exarkun> | I think merijn said it pretty well |
| 13:03:35 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | which (as I was just saying in the other channel) would be an excellent feature I would definitely use |
| 13:03:36 | <exarkun> | I run nixos, I'm happy to have `stack build` require `nix-shell` |
| 13:04:02 | <exarkun> | Other people don't run nixos, if they want to install zlib-dev with `yum` or whatever, it would be cool if `stack build` still worked |
| 13:04:16 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | oh I see |
| 13:04:18 | <exarkun> | But if I put `nix` in stack.yaml then they can't build anymore unless they install nix (just the tool, not nixos) |
| 13:04:39 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | I have run into this issue too |
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| 13:05:21 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | https://github.com/gibiansky/IHaskell/blob/4e1a2a132c165e1669faaeac355eb853e1f628a3/stack.yaml#L55 |
| 13:05:22 | <exarkun> | I don't really see how you could make that particularly reliable or robust (at least, not based on what's there now). But that doesn't stop me from wanting a better user experience... |
| 13:05:43 | <exarkun> | vaibhavsagar[m]: Hm. And then just locally edit `enable` to suit you? |
| 13:06:14 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | you could write your own program that changes the YAML based on the output of `type -f nix` |
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| 13:07:31 | <exarkun> | for now maybe I'll just note that folks can edit `nix.enable` in stack.yaml in the build docs |
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| 13:12:24 | <kw> | I know that proliferation of operators is evil, but hypothetically speaking, what would be a good mnemonic operator for `traverseOf_` ? I'm thinking maybe `(-%~)` or `(%%-)` ? |
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| 13:12:54 | <ente_> | has anyone ever encountered this error in vs code? "ghcide compiled by GHC 8.10 failed to load packages: <command line>: cannot satisfy -package shortener-0.1.0.0" |
| 13:13:54 | <ente_> | nvm it just went away after reloading the window |
| 13:14:02 | <exarkun> | kw: 🌉 |
| 13:14:36 | <exarkun> | kw: 淩 |
| 13:14:54 | <exarkun> | kw: 🚸 |
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| 13:16:27 | <pe200012_> | ente_: execute `stack build` |
| 13:16:38 | <pe200012_> | then reload hls |
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| 13:17:26 | <kw> | exarkun: Oops, I forgot to install Symbola on this instance, so please just ASCII. |
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| 13:23:42 | <kw> | Guess I could define `travereseOf_infixr4` and use that. Bit of a long name, but it's informative. |
| 13:25:36 | <ente_> | can you have a data record with a field whichs data type can be specified? |
| 13:25:52 | <ente_> | in elm you can do something like `content: a` and then specify the type in a |
| 13:26:15 | <kw> | Yep. `data Foo a = Foo{ foo :: a }` |
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| 13:26:30 | <ente_> | ah thanks |
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| 13:30:18 | <ente_> | and if you want to create a record of Foo, how do you specify the type? |
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| 13:30:45 | <ente_> | `Thing String {content: "", ...}` doesn't seem to work |
| 13:30:50 | <ente_> | sorry for noob questions |
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| 13:32:12 | <kw> | ente_: I'm not sure I understand the question. Say you want a Foo of String, with the value `"foo"`. You use `x = Foo{ foo = "foo" }` . Then `x :: Foo String` . |
| 13:32:26 | <ente_> | oh ok |
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| 13:37:41 | <gentauro> | 13:33 < tomsmeding> I know of the existence of homomorphic encryption |
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| 13:38:10 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: for fully homomorphic encryption, you need addition and multiplication which the NAND gate provides you :) |
| 13:39:26 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2012/01/02/very-casual-introduction-to-fully/ |
| 13:39:29 | <gentauro> | :) |
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| 13:40:38 | <gentauro> | Cale and tomsmeding: my intention was to add a basic `octet type` which you could use to implement basic logic |
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| 13:40:51 | <gentauro> | as kuribas said, this was just "some experimenting" |
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| 13:41:26 | gentauro | and mostly see, how far I could push Haskell |
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| 13:42:26 | <gentauro> | I guess, wouldn't it be better for our society if more *bright* Haskellers spent time on problems like HE / FHE and perhaps, not su much on crypto stuff? Just a thought … |
| 13:43:01 | <kuribas> | I don't even get why people think haskell is good for crypto. |
| 13:43:03 | <tomsmeding> | gentauro: but surely, if you want to define arithmetic operations in terms of logic gates, then the goal is to let the number of logic gates be linear in the number of bits, right? |
| 13:43:12 | <tomsmeding> | your current code is exponentially sized in the number of bits :p |
| 13:43:17 | <kuribas> | I think it's mediocre at it, and not even better than other languages. |
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| 13:46:17 | <kuribas> | F* looks more reasonable |
| 13:46:26 | <Cale> | gentauro: Cryptocurrencies and blockchain stuff in general is pretty much a complete waste of everyone's time and energy and I'm sad about it as well, but it's hard to fault people for following the money around. I find that phrasing a bit funny though, since homomorphic encryption would usually have been considered solidly part of "crypto". |
| 13:46:27 | <Franciman> | f* is coooool |
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| 13:53:56 | <maerwald> | gentauro: pay them better... even boring js jobs often pay better. Only exception is fintech and crypto is just part of that |
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| 13:58:45 | <janus> | Cale: do you have know a good article that explains why even blockchain is bad in general? i'd like to have something to show people when they claim that blockchains have merit outside cryptocurrency |
| 13:59:29 | <merijn> | janus: Well, you've got it reversed, you should be asking "give me one thing they're *good* at" |
| 13:59:44 | <Cale> | janus: hmm... I have my own argument for it |
| 13:59:55 | <merijn> | The answer is: They aren't particularly good at anything and 99.9% of all supposed use cases have much simpler/easier alternatives |
| 14:00:06 | <Cale> | ^^ yes |
| 14:00:08 | <merijn> | Anyway, that's rapidly going offtopic for #haskell I think |
| 14:00:14 | <merijn> | Might actually be 100%, tbh |
| 14:00:37 | <janus> | Cale: are you in another channel where i can ask you about it? |
| 14:00:39 | <maerwald> | But most of Haskell is blockchain |
| 14:00:44 | <maerwald> | :p |
| 14:00:47 | <merijn> | janus: #haskell-offtopic :p |
| 14:01:04 | <Franciman> | here we can talk about haskell fading into darkness? |
| 14:01:28 | <Franciman> | micheal snoyman adopted rust |
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| 14:01:57 | <maerwald> | BC rust is used in blockchain |
| 14:02:26 | <merijn> | Franciman: So? |
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| 14:02:52 | <merijn> | Franciman: I disagree with a lot of his opinions anyway :p |
| 14:03:21 | <Franciman> | merijn: me too |
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| 14:04:03 | <Franciman> | everything I used that was created by his accolades or himself, has sucked badly for me |
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| 14:04:44 | <Franciman> | stackage skipping tests :D |
| 14:04:46 | <Franciman> | was hilarious |
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| 14:40:39 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | who needs tests when you have types /s |
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| 15:53:21 | <gentauro> | 15:53 < maerwald> gentauro: pay them better... even boring js jobs often pay better. Only exception is fintech and crypto is just part of that |
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| 15:54:01 | <gentauro> | maerwald[m]: the reason I don't do Haskell for food is: a) I have to do crypto-stuff or b) The salary is worse of what i can get by being a code monkey |
| 15:54:07 | <gentauro> | it's sad, but true |
| 15:54:30 | <gentauro> | last offer I got on the table was from a Swedish company that would pay me less than a Danish cashier … |
| 15:54:43 | <gentauro> | so I politely said NO. |
| 15:55:18 | <gentauro> | 15:43 < tomsmeding> your current code is exponentially sized in the number of bits :p |
| 15:55:32 | <gentauro> | tomjaguarpaw: probably xD |
| 15:55:51 | <gentauro> | ups, wrong tomsmeding: |
| 15:56:19 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: I guess this is the issue with all HE/FHE (slower than the bad guys horse in a Western) |
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| 16:26:44 | <tomsmeding> | gentauro: but if you have a nand gate and _use_ it (your code is really only pattern matching, it never actually uses a nand gate I think), you can reduce the code to constant size in the number of bits |
| 16:27:02 | <tomsmeding> | because you can implement a one-bit full adder with a constant number of logic gates |
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| 16:27:59 | <tomsmeding> | I forget exactly how many gates you need for a multiplier, but if it isn't n log n then it's at most n^2, which is significantly less than 2^n :p |
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| 16:32:19 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: but when you "code" with NAND gates, is like you are creating a physical "circuit board" (with components) |
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| 16:32:41 | <gentauro> | so it will become "big" |
| 16:33:10 | <gentauro> | I guess is just like "pure lambda calculus" (which isn't reduced) |
| 16:33:37 | <gentauro> | but nevertheless, it has been ages since "I played" with FHE so I might not recall why I did what i did |
| 16:35:21 | <tomsmeding> | gentauro: an 8-bit adder can be made like this https://www.wolfram.com/system-modeler/examples/more/electrical-engineering/8-bit-adder where FA is a full adder: https://theorycircuit.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/full-adder-circuit.png |
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| 16:35:30 | <tomsmeding> | and XOR/AND/OR can be implemented using NAND |
| 16:35:47 | <tomsmeding> | you don't need 256 gates to add two 8-bit numbers, even with nands :p |
| 16:37:24 | <gentauro> | 15:39 < gentauro> tomsmeding: https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2012/01/02/very-casual-introduction-to-fully/ |
| 16:37:27 | <tomsmeding> | naively converting that full adder to nands following https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAND_logic leads to 15 nands per FA, if I counted correctly |
| 16:37:34 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: I guess I needed `A B : 1+A*B` which is NAND |
| 16:37:44 | <gentauro> | and from there i could create all the other logic gates |
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| 16:39:31 | <gentauro> | nevertheless, I don't remember why I went with the pattern match instead of calculation |
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| 16:40:01 | <gentauro> | perhaps is cos (theoretic) Math doesn't make any calculations, but just maps from one set to another? (most plauseble answer I guess) |
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| 16:48:58 | <Boarders> | Does anyone know with both stack and cabal how I can pass ghc options to e.g. build all dependencies with -O2? |
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| 17:00:05 | <kw> | Is there a way to fuse list operations that can terminate early, like `delete` , without eliminating the possibility of early termination? |
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| 17:08:09 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | Boarders: there's a `ghc-options` stanza in `stack.yaml` |
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| 17:08:50 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | for cabal there is a `ghc-options` stanza in your `.cabal` file |
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| 17:08:55 | <gentauro> | Boarders: like this? https://gitlab.com/spisemisu/arraylog/-/blob/master/arraylog.cabal#L122 |
| 17:10:25 | <sclv> | well the options in the cabal file are _just_ for that project. to get the deps also -O2 you can pass the flags in the cabal.project file but i don't remember exactly how or also set global ghc options in ~/.cabal/config |
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| 17:15:32 | <Boarders> | gentauro: I don't think so because like sclv said that typically only uses those options for your local project |
| 17:15:57 | <Boarders> | vaibhavsagar[m]: do you know if that passes those options to the dependencies? |
| 17:16:24 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | I think there's a way to do that with stack |
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| 17:18:05 | <sclv> | Boarders: so for cabal, create a cabal.project and then I think have a `package *` stanza, and inside that you can put in a ghc flags line |
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| 17:19:16 | <Boarders> | ah ok, thanks! |
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| 17:46:56 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | @Boarders: https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/yaml_configuration/#ghc-options |
| 17:46:57 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
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| 19:16:06 | <Guest9> | hi all |
| 19:16:16 | <Guest9> | how to convert any program into recursion program? |
| 19:16:17 | <Guest9> | https://codeshare.io/vw8Zdn |
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| 19:33:09 | <dminuoso> | Guest9: A loop is trivially mapped into recursion of an (auxiliary) function. We encode a "loop variable" as a function argument, when the "loop increments a loop variable" we encode that as recursion with the argument modified, and exiting the loop by simply returning the final value. |
| 19:33:24 | <dminuoso> | @src length |
| 19:33:24 | <lambdabot> | Source not found. My brain just exploded |
| 19:33:41 | <[exa]> | imploded. |
| 19:34:46 | <dminuoso> | A possible version of the length function might look like this: length xs = go 0 xs where go n (x:xs) = go (n+1) xs; go n [] = n; |
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| 19:36:39 | <dminuoso> | Guest9: If you look at this, you might notice that the outside call into `go` with an argument of 0 is akin to "initializing a loop variable", modifying it by (n+1) in the recursive step is akin to "increment each step", and we can use guards/pattern matching/conditionals that decide whether or not to keep recursion as a way to keep looping or exit the loop. |
| 19:38:31 | <Guest9> | dminuoso trying to understand your point |
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| 20:05:13 | <kw> | Gonna ask this again. `traverseOf` has an operator `(%%~)` . If `traverseOf_` had on operator, would it be `(-%~)`, `(%%-)` , or something else? |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-06-17.