Logs on 2021-06-18 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:37:27 | <spider_> | . |
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| 00:52:55 | <Nak42> | I have some co-inductive list type: ```data Colist a = forall s. Colist (s -> Maybe (a,s)) s```, and I'm bashing my head against the wall trying to figure out if it's possible to define cons and nil over it - any ideas? |
| 00:53:43 | <shachaf> | Yes, it's possible. |
| 00:54:13 | <Axman6> | is nil = Colist (\_ -> Nothing) undefined? |
| 00:54:24 | <Axman6> | I mean, it could be anything I guess |
| 00:54:26 | <shachaf> | Well, yes, but I wouldn't use undefined there. |
| 00:54:34 | <Axman6> | () also works |
| 00:55:10 | <Nak42> | Axman6 Yeah, I've got that one so far |
| 00:55:12 | <shachaf> | If you want to understand this style of definition, you might have an easier type with data Conat = forall s. Conat (s -> Maybe s) s |
| 00:55:18 | <shachaf> | Uh, an easier time. |
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| 00:55:20 | <shachaf> | Both, I suppose. |
| 00:55:27 | <Axman6> | this feels a lot like how stream fusion is defined, but I don't remember how you do cons there either |
| 00:56:09 | <shachaf> | You should think of either of these as a sort of state machine. There's some internal state, and you can put the state into the function to tick it one step. |
| 00:56:13 | <Nak42> | Haha yeah, I saw the type signature in some guys blog post on stream fusion and I got curious |
| 00:56:23 | <shachaf> | And then maybe it yields a new state, or maybe it halts. |
| 00:56:37 | <Nak42> | Thanks shachaf, that's a really good idea |
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| 00:57:22 | <Axman6> | cons a (Colist f s) = Colist (\(b,s') -> if b then Just (a, (False, s')) else ((False,) <$> f s') (True, s)? |
| 00:57:38 | <shachaf> | That looks too complicated. |
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| 01:01:42 | <shachaf> | Hmm, cons is kind of annoying, actually. |
| 01:01:43 | <Axman6> | Well, it works I believe :) |
| 01:01:46 | <Axman6> | yes |
| 01:01:58 | <shachaf> | I guess it works, then! |
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| 01:02:20 | <Axman6> | IIRC this is pretty close to for it works in stream fusion. ideally you could return a new step function and have a different type for the state |
| 01:02:23 | <shachaf> | The issue is that (Bool,s) has twice as many states as s, when really you just want one more. |
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| 01:03:19 | <Axman6> | There's probably a version with s as Maybe initially set to Nothing |
| 01:03:37 | <shachaf> | Right. |
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| 01:03:59 | <shachaf> | I guess using lists rather than numbers shows an interesting wrinkle there, because you have to cons onto the beginning, not the en. |
| 01:04:57 | <Axman6> | cons a (Colist f s) = Colist (\ms -> (ms >>= f) <|> Just (a,Just s)) Nothing |
| 01:05:25 | <Axman6> | cons a (Colist f s) = Colist (\ms -> (ms >>= fmap Just . f) <|> Just (a,Just s)) Nothing |
| 01:05:29 | <Axman6> | or something... |
| 01:06:31 | <Axman6> | probably missing another fmap actually |
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| 01:08:27 | <shachaf> | Man, this is surprisingly awkward. |
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| 01:08:53 | <Axman6> | micro-nerd-sniped |
| 01:09:14 | <Axman6> | if it could return a new Colist it would probably become simpler |
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| 01:15:43 | <shachaf> | I'm not doing better than cons x (Colist f s) = Colist (fmap (fmap Just) . maybe (Just (x,s)) f) Nothing |
| 01:15:46 | <shachaf> | Which isn't that great. |
| 01:15:59 | <Axman6> | yeah |
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| 01:17:27 | <Axman6> | Thinking about stream fusion, I've thought for a while that it should include a way to return a new step function and a new state type so you don't accrete layers in the state type. things like drop should be able to remove their own state as and return whatever's wrapped |
| 01:17:34 | <Axman6> | (I hope that made sense) |
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| 02:55:33 | <qrpnxz> | how come `pure` isn't in the Functor typeclass rather than the Applicative? |
| 02:56:09 | <cdsmith> | There are functors that can't implement it. |
| 02:56:58 | <cdsmith> | For example, Const Int. Which Int should (pure "some string") be? |
| 02:57:13 | <davean> | Functor is not a container |
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| 03:01:34 | <justsomeguy> | How would you describe Functor? |
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| 03:02:38 | <davean> | justsomeguy: by its laws |
| 03:03:41 | <c_wraith> | if the laws are too opaque at first, "things that can use a function to change a type argument" |
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| 03:11:37 | <c_wraith> | also... even containers can't necessarily implement pure. |
| 03:11:46 | <c_wraith> | Take a look at Data.Map.Map |
| 03:12:03 | <c_wraith> | What would pure possibly do there? |
| 03:12:20 | <justsomeguy> | It's not too opaque, but I honestly really enjoy finding the right metaphor, or the most beautiful way to articulate a concept, so I like to ask people how they'd explain things. |
| 03:12:54 | <justsomeguy> | But "things that can use a function to change a type argument" is a pretty useful intuition. I like it. |
| 03:13:41 | <c_wraith> | the beauty of Functor is what it allows you to abstract over rather than what it "is". |
| 03:14:04 | <c_wraith> | Since I'm in the docs for Data.Map already... https://hackage.haskell.org/package/containers-0.6.4.1/docs/Data-Map-Strict.html#v:alterF |
| 03:14:19 | <c_wraith> | consider what that function does for all sorts of specializations of f |
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| 03:26:17 | <qrpnxz> | > Which Int should (pure "some string") be? |
| 03:26:17 | <qrpnxz> | any |
| 03:26:19 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:42: error: |
| 03:26:19 | <lambdabot> | parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets) |
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| 03:27:34 | <c_wraith> | qrpnxz: and what Map should (pure "some string") be? |
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| 03:28:26 | <qrpnxz> | which Map |
| 03:28:32 | <c_wraith> | Any of them |
| 03:28:38 | <c_wraith> | The answer is the same for all of them |
| 03:28:46 | <c_wraith> | "the question doesn't make sense" |
| 03:29:09 | <qrpnxz> | ig a map from any value to "some string", or maybe a map from some arbitrary value to "some string" |
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| 03:29:50 | <qrpnxz> | or maybe a map from "some string" to any value, or maybe a map from "some string" to some arbitrary value |
| 03:30:00 | <Axman6> | pure :: a -> Map k a; which k? |
| 03:30:16 | <c_wraith> | Ok, so let's say import Data.Map (Map) and you evaluate (pure "some string" :: Map (IO String -> [Watermelon]) String) |
| 03:30:43 | <c_wraith> | It type checks. |
| 03:30:52 | <c_wraith> | Your definition of pure had better handle it correctly. |
| 03:31:04 | <qrpnxz> | ok |
| 03:32:03 | <c_wraith> | and to be clear: Map has a Functor instance, but not an Applicative instance. |
| 03:32:22 | <qrpnxz> | i don't even see the functor instance in the library i found |
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| 03:32:50 | <c_wraith> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/containers-0.6.4.1/docs/Data-Map-Lazy.html#t:Map |
| 03:34:01 | <qrpnxz> | alright |
| 03:34:21 | <c_wraith> | and the reason it's not Applicative is that pure makes no sense for it. see https://hackage.haskell.org/package/semigroupoids-5.3.5/docs/Data-Functor-Apply.html#t:Apply for instance |
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| 03:36:23 | <qrpnxz> | or <*> made no sense |
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| 03:36:38 | <c_wraith> | nah, <*> makes perfect sense, which was the point of my link to Apply there |
| 03:36:45 | <c_wraith> | It has an instance for Map |
| 03:37:03 | <qrpnxz> | isn't it the other way around |
| 03:37:27 | <davean> | No, <*> is quite useful and makes sense for Map |
| 03:37:32 | <c_wraith> | no, it's pretty easy to implement f <*> x for Map |
| 03:37:35 | <davean> | but you couldn't impliment pure |
| 03:37:41 | <qrpnxz> | i mean that map has an instance for apply |
| 03:38:05 | <qrpnxz> | why couldn't you |
| 03:38:18 | <c_wraith> | Eh. I don't really consider instances to belong to either types or classes more than the other |
| 03:38:34 | <c_wraith> | a class can have instances for types, a type can have instances for classes |
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| 03:39:15 | <qrpnxz> | can you show the difference, i've only ever seen one way |
| 03:39:32 | <davean> | qrpnxz: what would "pure" be if your functor was a function? |
| 03:39:56 | <c_wraith> | in ghci, type in ":info Show" and ":info []". either way, it lists a bunch of instances |
| 03:40:22 | <qrpnxz> | davean, (const .) or smth like that ig |
| 03:40:35 | <davean> | qrpnxz: think through that for even a second |
| 03:40:39 | <davean> | ((->) Int) |
| 03:41:00 | <davean> | Thats what you're trying to impliment pure for |
| 03:41:09 | <davean> | fmap is obvious, its just (.) |
| 03:41:19 | <qrpnxz> | you say that as if applicative for functions didn't exist |
| 03:41:32 | <qrpnxz> | lol it's literally const haha |
| 03:41:41 | <davean> | No, I say that to talk about how you're modeling functor in your head |
| 03:41:42 | <c_wraith> | yeah, Map is not functions |
| 03:42:09 | <qrpnxz> | ok, never said it was |
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| 03:42:45 | <qrpnxz> | thought their interface is the same now that you bring it up |
| 03:43:09 | <c_wraith> | The big difference is that a function (k -> Maybe v) is negative in k, but (Map k v) is positive in k |
| 03:43:18 | <davean> | c_wraith: right |
| 03:43:29 | <qrpnxz> | what does negative in k mean |
| 03:44:16 | <c_wraith> | it means it is a thing that only consumes values of type k. |
| 03:44:41 | <qrpnxz> | and a map doesn't only take key's of k? |
| 03:44:49 | <qrpnxz> | *keys |
| 03:44:49 | <c_wraith> | no, toList exists |
| 03:44:59 | <qrpnxz> | list is something else |
| 03:45:09 | <c_wraith> | :t M.toList |
| 03:45:10 | <lambdabot> | M.Map k a -> [(k, a)] |
| 03:45:23 | <c_wraith> | as you can see, that *produces* values of type k |
| 03:45:26 | <c_wraith> | not consumes them |
| 03:46:11 | <qrpnxz> | ok, well (k -> a) -> [(k, a)] is not an invalid type, and i don't see what this has to do with pure |
| 03:46:16 | <davean> | (->a) vs (a ->) |
| 03:47:19 | <c_wraith> | it means for ((->) a), pure only needs to generate a value that consumes something of type a |
| 03:47:35 | <c_wraith> | But for (Map k), pure needs to create something that can produce a value of type k |
| 03:47:42 | <c_wraith> | and that's why it fails |
| 03:48:27 | <qrpnxz> | i mean this is beside the point tbh. The reason i ask is that afaict in cat theory, a functor maps objects and morphism, fmap is only mapping morphisms, so it doesn't not seem to me that Functor is really a functor, and that's why i wonder either why it doesn't have pure or why it's called a functor, regardless of whether you think it's possible to have pure for Map or not (which if it doesn't i'd argue it |
| 03:48:27 | <qrpnxz> | 's not a real functor) |
| 03:49:30 | <qrpnxz> | i can easily create something that can produce a value of type k, just pick arbitrary key |
| 03:49:52 | <c_wraith> | that would appear to be assuming the axiom of choice. :P |
| 03:50:28 | <qrpnxz> | not arbitrary key on each call, just a set one |
| 03:50:43 | <c_wraith> | But it would also violate the Applicative laws |
| 03:50:50 | <qrpnxz> | how so |
| 03:51:05 | <c_wraith> | pure id <*> x would not be equivalent to x |
| 03:51:55 | <Axman6> | qrpnxz: if I ask you to create a Map Void a from pure with type a -> Map k a, how are you going to do it? |
| 03:52:53 | <Axman6> | if I thern ask you to then make me a Map (b -> c) a using the same function, how do you do it? |
| 03:53:03 | <qrpnxz> | idk enough about void, but can we at least pause this for a moment and address the underlying reason that i'm talking about this which is what i wrote in the above parapraph |
| 03:53:51 | <c_wraith> | I don't think it's a separate issue |
| 03:54:06 | <c_wraith> | You're considering a universe smaller than the haskell type system |
| 03:54:14 | <monochrom> | In a typical "instance Functor MyParamaterizedType", MyParameterizedType is the object map. |
| 03:54:42 | <qrpnxz> | i think it is because i don't actually care if map can have pure or not, it's whether functor in haskell is actually describing a functor, and if it is how it can do that without pure |
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| 03:55:27 | <c_wraith> | monochrom just answered that |
| 03:55:30 | <monochrom> | The only two legit criticisms of Haskell's Functor class are "this is only an endo functor" and "this is hardcoded for one single category". |
| 03:55:51 | <monochrom> | s/for/to/ |
| 03:56:02 | <c_wraith> | both totally valid criticisms. |
| 03:56:24 | <monochrom> | Right, but "this doesn't have an object map" is dumb. |
| 03:56:28 | <qrpnxz> | i know that, but this is not the case for Map (it has no pure), so then it doesn't have the object map, therefore not a functor in reality |
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| 03:57:05 | <Axman6> | it is definitely a functor though |
| 03:57:07 | <c_wraith> | the object map is (Map k) |
| 03:57:11 | <monochrom> | Wrong. Functoriality doesn't require pure. |
| 03:57:26 | <c_wraith> | because the objects are types |
| 03:57:29 | <qrpnxz> | if the object map is Map k then why is there no pure = Map k |
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| 03:57:39 | <c_wraith> | because values and types are not the same |
| 03:57:44 | <Axman6> | why do you think something needs pure to be a functor? functor is all about mapping morphisms |
| 03:58:00 | <monochrom> | "data P a = MkP" is also a functor. |
| 03:58:04 | <Axman6> | what is k? which one do you pick? |
| 03:58:10 | <qrpnxz> | wait hold on a moment |
| 03:58:24 | <monochrom> | Err nevermind P admits a pure. |
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| 04:00:11 | <qrpnxz> | ok i think i'm getting this now i'm gonna ruminate more |
| 04:00:25 | <qrpnxz> | thanks for explanation |
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| 04:09:26 | <qrpnxz> | ok haskell burn my brain enough for today geez |
| 04:10:44 | <Axman6> | There are things which are functors which aren't Haskell functors, it's not a one to one mapping |
| 04:10:53 | <Axman6> | but I think all thisngs which are Functors are functors |
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| 04:12:31 | <c_wraith> | yeah, that's right. |
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| 04:19:26 | <c_wraith> | ugh. Why does the Applicative instance for (MaybeT f) in transformers require f to be a Monad? :( |
| 04:20:33 | <Axman6> | what's the source for its implementation? |
| 04:20:42 | <Axman6> | that is surprising to me too though |
| 04:21:12 | <c_wraith> | the <*> implementation uses do notation and binds the arguments sequentially |
| 04:21:20 | <Axman6> | >_< |
| 04:22:03 | <Axman6> | hmm, I guess you do need Monad so you don't execute the second argument |
| 04:22:18 | <Axman6> | so it's short circuiting |
| 04:22:20 | <c_wraith> | Oh, right. |
| 04:22:23 | <c_wraith> | That is a requirement |
| 04:22:30 | <c_wraith> | Ok, I understand now. |
| 04:22:38 | <c_wraith> | I guess I'm creating my own type |
| 04:22:41 | <Axman6> | it is off that it has (Functor m, Monad m) though |
| 04:22:46 | <monochrom> | It needs at least Selective. |
| 04:22:48 | <Axman6> | odd* |
| 04:23:01 | <c_wraith> | I think that's historical baggage from pre-AMP |
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| 07:05:38 | <dminuoso> | I have a tree in which each branch (top-to-bottom) alternates between "NwD" and "UsDC". Is there a reasonable way to encode this ontop of a plain rose tree? |
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| 07:06:32 | <dminuoso> | I almost feel like this should be encodable as a fixed point type, but I cant figure out how |
| 07:06:54 | <dminuoso> | (i.e. the children of NwD must be UsDC, and the children of UsDC must be NwD) |
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| 07:20:17 | <hololeap> | dminuoso: I don't see a way to do that, unless you want to get into type families and a type-level tag |
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| 07:26:32 | <hololeap> | even then, it doesn't seem reasonable |
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| 07:30:20 | <kuribas> | it's easy if you don't want to enforce the invariant |
| 07:30:39 | <dminuoso> | Sure, I can just encode it as `Tree (Either NwD UsDC)` then. |
| 07:31:07 | <hololeap> | the mutually-recursive method seems best to me |
| 07:31:36 | <dminuoso> | hololeap: Yeah I began to suspect as much. |
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| 07:33:25 | <kuribas> | otherwise not possible. You want to constrain the types on value level, which implies some kind of dependent types. |
| 07:35:47 | <hololeap> | it might be possible with a GADT holding a type level list of tags and some kind of constraint that makes sure it's in the proper order, but that's way too much complexity |
| 07:36:45 | tomsmeding | thinks of a red-black tree |
| 07:37:47 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Without the balancing. ;) |
| 07:37:51 | <kuribas> | hololeap: how can a GADT check value level information? The "levels" information is not available on type level. |
| 07:37:52 | <tomsmeding> | :p |
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| 07:39:15 | <dminuoso> | hololeap: Mmm, what about a non-regular data type? |
| 07:39:23 | <dminuoso> | Naively something like: |
| 07:39:31 | <kuribas> | perhaps it could have worked if the tree was in recursion-scheme style. |
| 07:40:36 | <dminuoso> | data Tree n a = Node a [Tree (Succ n) a] |
| 07:41:13 | <kuribas> | data Tree a b = Node { rootLabel :: a, subForest :: [b a] } |
| 07:41:14 | <dminuoso> | Or rather a type family that just flips between lifted 'L and 'R `data D = L | R` |
| 07:41:41 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: that's what I was wondering about initially |
| 07:42:03 | <dminuoso> | but this is not trivial recursion anymore |
| 07:43:23 | <tomsmeding> | note that for `type family Flip d where Flip 'L = 'R ; Flip 'R = 'L` GHC cannot prove that `Flip (Flip d) ~ d` |
| 07:44:33 | <tomsmeding> | re fixed point type: yes if you take the fixed point of `data Node2 f = Node2 NwD [(UsDC, [f])]` :p |
| 07:44:44 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Mmm, I guess Id need an SMT plugged into the type checker for that? |
| 07:44:51 | <dminuoso> | *SMT solver |
| 07:45:13 | <tomsmeding> | or `believeme :: Flip (Flip d) :~: d ; believeme = unsafeCoerce Refl` ;) |
| 07:45:19 | <tomsmeding> | which is what I did |
| 07:45:28 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: interesting, re Node2: I think I can actually do that! |
| 07:45:39 | <dminuoso> | Each tree ends with UsDC, so this seems even better. |
| 07:45:46 | <tomsmeding> | it's a kind of weird representation of such a tree though, in my opinion |
| 07:45:48 | <tomsmeding> | but it works |
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| 07:46:00 | <hololeap> | kuribas: it wouldn't be checking value level info. it would be pushing the NwD and UsDC tags to the type level, which would mean that you would be checking a tree of tags to ensure proper order using a type family and a constraint. it would be ugly |
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| 07:46:55 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: newtype Even a = Even (Tree Odd a); newtype Odd a = Odd (Tree Even a); |
| 07:48:43 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: not sure what you get out of this though... |
| 07:48:49 | <dminuoso> | Yeah that's what hololeap suggested with a mutually recursive data type |
| 07:49:13 | <kuribas> | but this requires a functorial encoding |
| 07:49:27 | <dminuoso> | Though tomsmeding's encoding that cute advantage of being uniform as well as guaranteeding that each branch ends with UsDC (a condition I didnt mention because it didnt occur to me to encode this too) |
| 07:49:44 | <dminuoso> | guaranteeding. |
| 07:49:44 | <tomsmeding> | yeah I would go either with the plain, simple, mutually recursive approach, or if I really wanted the node constructor to be the same always, perhaps use that Succ trick with a type family that defines the tag on each level (and even whether the tree can terminate there) |
| 07:49:57 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 07:50:06 | <kuribas> | simple is always better IMO |
| 07:50:37 | <tomsmeding> | you can also encode the ends-with-UsDC requirement using the simple mutually recursive approach |
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| 07:50:56 | <hololeap> | well, not exactly. I was suggesting `data Even a = Even a [Odd a]` and `data Odd a = Odd a [Even a]` |
| 07:51:08 | <tomsmeding> | data A = A NwD (NonEmpty B) ; data B = B UsDC [A] |
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| 08:03:41 | <hololeap> | just curious, is there a way to validate a string literal during compile time? |
| 08:04:19 | <dminuoso> | Yes |
| 08:04:22 | <nitrix> | Stare at it intensely :3 |
| 08:04:33 | <dminuoso> | hololeap: merjin has a package for that. |
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| 08:04:48 | <dminuoso> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/validated-literals |
| 08:04:52 | <Taneb> | I'd imagine it'd need template haskell or quasiquotes or similar |
| 08:04:59 | <dminuoso> | It does |
| 08:05:03 | <dibblego> | not trees, but lists, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/separated |
| 08:05:24 | <hololeap> | dminuoso: neat, thanks |
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| 08:26:06 | <hololeap> | dibblego: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/separated -- i'm staring at this and I really don't know how to use it or what it's for |
| 08:27:10 | <dibblego> | it's a list of elements of alternating type |
| 08:29:52 | <hololeap> | ok, i see it now |
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| 09:00:35 | <Guest9> | if i have m placeholders/bins/boxes & n values/symbols, how many combinations it is possible to make without repeating any value/symbol? |
| 09:01:01 | <c_wraith> | is that a Haskell question? |
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| 09:02:39 | <c_wraith> | (the key phrase to google for is "without replacement", along with whichever of combinations or permutations is your goal) |
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| 09:03:00 | <Guest9> | ok c_wraith |
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| 09:04:10 | <Profpatsch> | I’m trying to generate a Wai.Request by hand, yet https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wai-3.2.2.1/docs/Network-Wai.html#v:requestBody is deprecated |
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| 09:04:45 | <Profpatsch> | The proposed solution https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wai-3.2.2.1/docs/src/Network.Wai.Internal.html#getRequestBodyChunk is just an alias, but now you can’t use it as a data type constructor |
| 09:04:59 | <Profpatsch> | So idk how to not use a deprecated field to generate a request |
| 09:05:14 | <dminuoso> | Profpatsch: File a bug report. |
| 09:05:17 | <Profpatsch> | I vaguely remember that there is a way to use the function instead |
| 09:05:19 | <Profpatsch> | but I’m not sure |
| 09:05:27 | <dminuoso> | Not to update, as far as I know |
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| 09:05:30 | <Profpatsch> | ok |
| 09:05:47 | <Profpatsch> | well I guess in that case I’d just mark it as okay |
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| 09:06:56 | <Profpatsch> | Is there anything better than -Wno-deprecations on the module level? |
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| 09:07:43 | <dminuoso> | Profpatsch: No. There's been a ticket on ghc to improve finer control on code regions, but that one has been unresolved out of overly idealistic wishes. |
| 09:07:54 | <dminuoso> | For a over a decade now. |
| 09:08:25 | <dminuoso> | Of course you could create a stub-module per deprecated thing |
| 09:08:43 | <Profpatsch> | yeah, it sounds like the workaround is not hard |
| 09:08:46 | <dminuoso> | (Or rather, some Deprecated module, which re-binds and re-exports these things, but has the warning disabled) |
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| 09:15:45 | <Profpatsch> | whttps://github.com/yesodweb/wai/issues/849 |
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| 09:21:36 | <hololeap> | OT question but I've been thinking... is it theoretically possible to create a language that has n-dimensions of type levels? in other words, instead of just types and kinds, also kinds of kinds and kinds of kinds of kinds etc. |
| 09:21:46 | <dminuoso> | hololeap: Yes. |
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| 09:21:58 | <merijn> | hololeap: Google (Extended) Calculus of Constructions |
| 09:22:44 | <dminuoso> | Dont Idris and Agda have infinite towers like that? |
| 09:22:44 | <hololeap> | lol I was expecting more of a pause :) |
| 09:23:03 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Yes, iirc |
| 09:23:04 | <kuribas> | in a dependent language type level and kind level are the same. |
| 09:23:17 | <merijn> | kuribas: Yes, but also, no |
| 09:23:26 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: only in GHC Haskell. |
| 09:23:29 | <merijn> | TypeInType is malarkey |
| 09:23:30 | <dminuoso> | or rather, that's a particualr example |
| 09:23:37 | <merijn> | An abomination unto the lord |
| 09:23:37 | <dminuoso> | Idris/Agda do not have TypeInType |
| 09:23:55 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: no, type level and kind level are quite separate in haskell. |
| 09:24:07 | <merijn> | hololeap: CoC uses an infinite hierarchy with indexing instead of GHC's TypeInType |
| 09:24:08 | <kuribas> | in idris kind level *is* type level. |
| 09:24:10 | <hololeap> | well, how would you encode in an actual language, say, the 5th dimension of that stack |
| 09:24:12 | <merijn> | kuribas: No |
| 09:24:15 | <kuribas> | the type of a type is just a type. |
| 09:24:27 | <dminuoso> | 11:23:55 kuribas | dminuoso: no, type level and kind level are quite separate in haskell. |
| 09:24:29 | <dminuoso> | no they are not |
| 09:24:29 | <merijn> | idris uses indexed universes like Extended CoC afaik |
| 09:24:32 | <hololeap> | or have people done stuff like this in idris already? |
| 09:24:35 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: they are the same in GHC Haskell. |
| 09:24:50 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: GHC just has a lot of pleasantries in pretty printing error messages to make you think they are different. |
| 09:24:57 | <merijn> | hololeap: Normally people have either 4 (term, type, kind, sort) or they just generalise to infinity |
| 09:25:01 | <dminuoso> | and there's some ergonomics. but internally, they are the same |
| 09:25:04 | <Taneb> | hololeap: so, in Agda, 3 has type Nat which has type Set which has type Set1 which has type Set2 etc |
| 09:25:13 | <merijn> | hololeap: afaik Idris and Agda generalise to infinity |
| 09:25:15 | ← | Profpatsch parts (~Profpatsc@static.88-198-193-255.clients.your-server.de) (WeeChat 3.1) |
| 09:25:40 | <hololeap> | interesting. it totally makes sense, though |
| 09:26:10 | <dminuoso> | Im not quite sure when the move happened in GHC, but the conflating of Kinds and Types happened a while ago. boxscape surely knows from the top off his heart. |
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| 09:26:24 | <boxscape> | 8.0 |
| 09:26:24 | <merijn> | hololeap: I vaguely recall learning most of this stuff for an Extended CoC paper by Luo |
| 09:26:32 | <merijn> | hololeap: But it was...pretty brutal to get through :) |
| 09:26:48 | <hololeap> | will that level of abstraction ever reach GHC, for instance, after dependent types are implemented? |
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| 09:27:17 | <hololeap> | I have been tempted to reach for kinds of kinds before, and then realized they dont exist in GHC |
| 09:27:38 | <kuribas> | merijn: ah right, Type == Type 1 |
| 09:27:50 | <kuribas> | :t Type => Type 2 |
| 09:27:51 | <lambdabot> | error: parse error on input ‘=>’ |
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| 09:28:01 | <hololeap> | (although when I go past kinds it's a signal that I'm "smartifying" the problem) |
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| 09:28:49 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: so GHC supports infinite type hierarchies already? |
| 09:29:14 | <merijn> | kuribas: No |
| 09:29:16 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: no. |
| 09:29:26 | <merijn> | kuribas: GHC just goes "lol, fuck it, who needs consistency in their logic" |
| 09:29:29 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: GHC has TypeInType, meaning `Type :: Type` |
| 09:29:48 | <dminuoso> | Even if you dont enable the extension, that's the reality of it. |
| 09:30:07 | <boxscape> | (in fact the extension is deprecated) |
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| 09:30:30 | <hololeap> | can you use that to (for instance) a kind-level Bool? |
| 09:30:38 | <hololeap> | *create a |
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| 09:32:23 | <hololeap> | I suppose that would be encoded as (k -> k -> k) |
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| 09:36:18 | <hololeap> | it should be `True = (k1 -> k2 -> k1) ; False = (k1 -> k2 -> k2)` |
| 09:37:18 | <hololeap> | is this how DataKinds does it at the low level? does it church-encode an ADT as a type? |
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| 09:38:27 | <hololeap> | *as a higher-kinded type |
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| 09:39:02 | <hololeap> | mm I got lost |
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| 09:41:00 | <boxscape> | I'm not sure there's a good reason for it to use a church encoding here |
| 09:41:25 | <boxscape> | it seems like you should be able to do something very similar to how ADTs are handled at runtime |
| 09:41:34 | <boxscape> | but |
| 09:41:37 | <boxscape> | I don't know how it's done |
| 09:41:37 | <hololeap> | boxscape: well, I was just thinking that you could use the current mechanism of higher-level kinds to encode different things already |
| 09:41:54 | <boxscape> | hm |
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| 10:33:36 | <hololeap> | boxscape: well, I tried to impment something using that and I get stuck without some notion of partially-applied type families or type-level lambdas |
| 10:34:17 | <hololeap> | type family Foo (_f :: (k -> x) -> k -> x) (_k :: k) :: x where Foo _f _k = ?????? |
| 10:34:25 | <boxscape> | hololeap ah, well, you could always install singletons and use its defunctionalization infrastructure to emulate partially applied type families |
| 10:34:45 | <hololeap> | this was all just to see if it was possible |
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| 10:39:01 | <hololeap> | oh, I see what I'm doing wrong here |
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| 10:43:54 | <hololeap> | this works although it's cumbersome: http://dpaste.com/4QWQWYJHV |
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| 10:45:58 | <boxscape> | hololeap which ghc version are you on? |
| 10:46:04 | <hololeap> | 8.10.5 |
| 10:46:39 | <boxscape> | ok, huh, I'm getting a bunch of `error: Not in scope: type variable ‘k’` with 8.10.4 |
| 10:47:51 | <hololeap> | oh heh I changed the names without recompiling |
| 10:48:09 | <boxscape> | ah |
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| 10:48:44 | <hololeap> | http://dpaste.com/CJ765R4U3 |
| 10:48:50 | <boxscape> | thanks |
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| 10:49:11 | <hololeap> | that's surprising that it cant disambiguate between the type-level "k" and the kind-level "k" |
| 10:49:29 | <boxscape> | hololeap the :$ is unnecessary |
| 10:49:35 | <boxscape> | or is that the point |
| 10:49:53 | <hololeap> | it was sort of an aritifact from when I wast trying to figure it out |
| 10:49:58 | <boxscape> | I see |
| 10:50:14 | <boxscape> | hololeap the type-level and kind-level namespaces are the same namespace |
| 10:50:27 | <hololeap> | I did not know that |
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| 10:50:39 | <boxscape> | (since 8.0) |
| 10:50:44 | <hololeap> | I was doing it at first just to keep myself sane |
| 10:51:01 | <hololeap> | (keeping the type and kind variables disambiguous) |
| 10:51:33 | <boxscape> | for what it's worth, you could use ($) here if you wanted instead of (:$) |
| 10:51:52 | <boxscape> | the colon is only required for data constructors |
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| 10:52:08 | <hololeap> | error: Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘$’ |
| 10:52:15 | <boxscape> | hmm |
| 10:52:33 | <boxscape> | hololeap to be clear I mean also rename it in the type family |
| 10:52:45 | <hololeap> | oh, really |
| 10:52:50 | <boxscape> | ghc doesn't automatically promote the term-level ($) (yet), but you can make a separate type-level version of it |
| 10:53:06 | <hololeap> | I thought a type family had to start with a "capital" which included ':' |
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| 10:53:45 | <boxscape> | understandable, but yeah, only data constructors |
| 10:53:51 | <hololeap> | it seems to work |
| 10:54:15 | <hololeap> | although that would get confusing |
| 10:54:22 | <boxscape> | % (\(+) -> (+)) 4 -- you need it for data constructors so that ghc knows the (+) here isn't supposed to be a constructor |
| 10:54:22 | <yahb> | boxscape: 4 |
| 10:55:12 | <hololeap> | infixr 0 $ -- if I change it to this, this seems like it would conflict with ($) in base |
| 10:55:31 | <hololeap> | (although they are the same value) |
| 10:55:51 | <boxscape> | yeah the fixity notations are a bit weird, I think they apply to all type-level and term-level constructors defined in that module |
| 10:56:08 | <boxscape> | so you wouldn't affect the base ($) with that |
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| 10:58:07 | <hololeap> | if I changed it to infixr 1 $, it wouldn't override ($) from base? |
| 10:58:17 | <boxscape> | I don't think so, no |
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| 10:58:58 | <hololeap> | just because of its the placement in a separate module, or because it's just below the type family def... or what? |
| 10:59:18 | <hololeap> | that seems ambiguous to me |
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| 11:00:12 | <boxscape> | because it's in a separate module |
| 11:00:37 | <boxscape> | (it's not a well designed situation) |
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| 11:07:12 | <hololeap> | ok. good to know! |
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| 12:00:39 | <dminuoso> | How exactly does the ($) hack work in GHC that allows for `runST $ ...` ? |
| 12:01:00 | <dminuoso> | Does GHC rewrite the AST to remove ($) directly? |
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| 12:03:40 | <jiribenes> | dminuoso: I think that with Quick Look, there is no need for any hacks anymore |
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| 12:04:03 | <jiribenes> | (Please correct me if I'm wrong) |
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| 12:17:23 | <safinaskar> | consider this code: <<< i :: a -> a; i x = (x :: a); >>> |
| 12:17:34 | <safinaskar> | how to make it compile? |
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| 12:21:00 | <boxscape> | % i :: forall a . a -> a; i x = (x :: a) |
| 12:21:00 | <yahb> | boxscape: |
| 12:21:05 | <boxscape> | ^ safinaskar |
| 12:21:11 | <boxscape> | assuming you have turned on ScopedTypeVariables |
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| 12:21:54 | <boxscape> | the `a` only becomes available in the rest of the definition if it's explicitly quantified with forall |
| 12:22:37 | <safinaskar> | boxscape: thanks, it works |
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| 12:26:22 | <merijn> | Alternatively, just remove the :: :p |
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| 13:21:42 | <juri_> | ok, down to 212 stan warnings. |
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| 13:54:28 | <delYsid> | Any Emacs lsp users here? I have it setup, but I am in emacs -nw and code lenses dont seem to work, or at least I dont get it. What else does lsp give me which I should check out, now that I am in modern IDE world? |
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| 13:59:42 | <janus> | delYsid: it can make explicit import lists automatically |
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| 14:02:28 | <delYsid> | janus: Yeah, that sounds useful. How do I do that? |
| 14:03:08 | <janus> | delYsid: on my machine it suggests it automatically if you hover over the import |
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| 14:03:16 | <janus> | delYsid: maybe that is a "code lens" ? |
| 14:03:23 | <janus> | note sure what they are |
| 14:03:25 | <janus> | *not |
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| 14:04:38 | <delYsid> | Thats what I am suspecting, it looks like a mouse-only feature... :-( |
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| 14:41:49 | <lalbornoz_> | https://i.imgur.com/zkMEoVo.jpeg |
| 14:41:54 | <janus> | delYsid: No, the cursor can be your text cursor. I had it working in nvim, i think |
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| 14:43:23 | <janus> | how do i unset -Werror from inside GHCi? I tried ":set -Wno-error" but it doesn't exist |
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| 14:44:02 | <merijn> | Isn't that just -Wwarn ? |
| 14:44:37 | <janus> | aah maybe, thanks! |
| 14:45:46 | <janus> | delYsid: pretty sure the LSP protocol doesn't care about pixel positions within a text character. so it is not specific to mouse. |
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| 14:46:01 | <lortabac> | there is ':unset', but apparently it doesn't work with -Werror |
| 14:46:28 | <delYsid> | merijn: TH was interesting, but the moment I had to learn th-compat to work around Q (TExp a) vs Code Q a I was for a short moment hating the moment I followed your advice :-) |
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| 14:47:10 | <delYsid> | janus: I guessed as much. However, the emacs lsp impl. I use seems to have forgotten about terminals. |
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| 14:49:11 | <janus> | delYsid: i never saw an emacs mode that only worked in GUI mode so i dunno about that... but i guess theory in it could exist |
| 14:49:48 | <janus> | but why would anyone write an LSP mode like that? still doesn't make sense to me |
| 14:50:07 | <delYsid> | janus: Yeah, usually emacs is pretty nice about terminal vs gui compatibility. But the new wave of young and spiffy coders seem to have forgotten about it. |
| 14:50:27 | <janus> | i would verify it before making assertions like that ;) |
| 14:50:39 | <delYsid> | I fucking read the code! :-) |
| 14:50:49 | <delYsid> | reading through lsp-lens.el makes the story quite clear |
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| 14:51:06 | <delYsid> | Fun is, I remember there was a way to do this a year ago, but they seem to have it removed since... |
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| 15:10:32 | shapr | hugs delYsid |
| 15:11:30 | <shapr> | delYsid: someone from the Haskell Foundation recently asked me about Haskell coders who might have accessibility issues |
| 15:11:47 | <shapr> | I linked them to your braille backend for diagrams, and suggested you might be a person to ask |
| 15:12:01 | <shapr> | delYsid: do you have an orbit reader? |
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| 15:37:16 | <Guest9> | if 3(m) symbols then 2^3(2^m) possible sequence, how? |
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| 15:51:27 | <pavonia> | Guest9: What's the context of that question? |
| 15:51:55 | <dminuoso> | 11:00:35 Guest9 | if i have m placeholders/bins/boxes & n values/symbols, how many combinations it is possible to make without repeating any value/symbol? |
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| 15:52:01 | <Guest9> | i am reaidng CLRS book, came across that statememnt i am trying to understand it. pavonia |
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| 15:52:37 | <Guest9> | dminuoso that issue was resolved. |
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| 15:52:55 | <Guest9> | n!/(n-m)! |
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| 15:53:18 | <dminuoso> | are you sure its not n!/m!(n-m)! ? |
| 15:53:42 | <Guest9> | 100 values, 2 boxes so total 100*99 combinations |
| 15:53:53 | <Guest9> | 100!/(100-2)! |
| 15:54:29 | <dminuoso> | Guest9: Ah, I guess you care about the order of symbols? |
| 15:54:34 | <Guest9> | unique-without repeating any value/symbol |
| 15:54:45 | <dminuoso> | Right, gotcha |
| 15:55:10 | <dminuoso> | Guest9: So sn and ns are both valid combinations, correct? |
| 15:55:20 | <Guest9> | yes |
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| 15:55:29 | <Guest9> | so what does this gives?n!/m!(n-m)! |
| 15:55:35 | <Guest9> | what is intuition for it? |
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| 15:58:16 | <Guest9> | so does it mean if values=1,2,3=>(1,2)(1,3)(2,3) |
| 15:58:26 | <pavonia> | All sequences where order doesn't matter, I think |
| 15:59:15 | <hrnz> | this counts the number of m-subsets of an n-elemnent st. |
| 15:59:17 | <hrnz> | set* |
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| 16:01:29 | <janus> | is there a way that i can set a preprocessor flag if a C header contains a symbol? i imagine i'll have to use a custom Setup.hs build script? |
| 16:01:31 | <Guest9> | is it same as m choose n? |
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| 16:02:28 | <hrnz> | if you have a little knowledge of group theory, the orbit stabiliser theorem gives you some nice intuition |
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| 16:03:01 | <hrnz> | n!/m!(n-m)! is n choose m. |
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| 16:03:18 | <dminuoso> | janus: Yes. |
| 16:03:37 | <dminuoso> | janus: A random example of how that might look is https://github.com/cdepillabout/termonad/blob/f2ae93c84afd83d24cc276a802099909dafc4d72/Setup.hs#L120 |
| 16:04:25 | <janus> | very cool, thank you. i wonder whether i could just have two packages, then the one with the common subset of functionality can stay with a Simple build |
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| 16:04:43 | <hrnz> | the symmetric group on n letters acts transitively on the set of m-element subsets. The stabilisers of that actions are direct products of S_m and S_{n-m} (you can freely permute the elements in your subsets and those not in your subset) |
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| 16:05:41 | <dminuoso> | janus: Sure, that sounds like it would work. |
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| 16:13:57 | <Guest9> | what is the key word for 23 combination is allowed while 32 not allowed likewise 213 is counted but not 123 or 321? |
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| 16:15:21 | <Guest9> | i mean any one of (23,32) (213,123,321,231,132,213) |
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| 16:18:53 | <pavonia> | Guest9: Doesn't "combination" already imply that order doesn't matter? |
| 16:19:18 | <Guest9> | checking wiki/dictionary for combinaton |
| 16:19:35 | fendor__ | is now known as fendor |
| 16:20:36 | <Guest9> | yes |
| 16:20:55 | <pavonia> | :) |
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| 16:28:55 | <zzz> | still no tunes-like logging? |
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| 16:33:03 | <janus> | how do i use a function that returns "Q Exp" . i know i can use [Shakespeare.Text.text| ...] to use `text`. But how to use `textFile`? |
| 16:34:08 | <janus> | ooh is it $( ... ) syntax |
| 16:34:12 | <c_wraith> | yes |
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| 16:52:55 | fluffyballoon | is now known as stickybearloon |
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| 17:07:24 | <monochrom> | Actually I am inclined to be pessimistic about tunes.org logs. It had stopped logging unrelated before our switch to libera. |
| 17:07:37 | <monochrom> | s/unrelated/unrelatedly/ |
| 17:07:49 | <jim`> | With any cabal command I get "Could not deserialize <repo>/root.json: Malformed: (line 1, column 1) unexpected end of line expecting white space or JSON value" |
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| 17:08:33 | <jim`> | ubuntu 20.04.2 LTS |
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| 17:09:14 | <monochrom> | Does "cabal update" help? |
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| 17:11:20 | <jim`> | any cabal command produces the same error from cabal-install-2.4.0.0 compiled with cabal-2.4.0.1 |
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| 17:12:34 | <lalbornoz_> | YOUR SHIT CHATS MAKE ME SO MAD I PUNCH HOLES IN MY WALL!!! THATS Y I MOVED 2 IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #MIDIPIX https://i.imgur.com/zkMEoVo.jpeg |
| 17:12:40 | ChanServ | sets mode +o monochrom |
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| 17:13:30 | <blackbart> | Does anyone know of a haskell library that could do something like this (from BOSL2 library for OpenSCAD) https://github.com/revarbat/BOSL2/wiki/walls.scad#module-sparse_strut ? |
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| 17:18:40 | <blackbart> | To save the need to load the link, it basicly creates sort of wireframe rectangles (ideally, I'd like to do trapezoids as well) |
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| 17:23:09 | <[exa]> | blackbart: there's been some scad-like library recently |
| 17:26:23 | <[exa]> | https://github.com/Haskell-Things/ImplicitCAD <- I guess you should be able to express it with this one |
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| 17:34:57 | <blackbart> | [exa]: taking a look, thanks |
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| 17:35:32 | <[exa]> | it's a wild guess but it looked pretty advanced |
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| 17:43:35 | <maerwald[m]> | It can't represent hulls |
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| 18:01:16 | <safinaskar> | hi. i didn't specify "-O2" in cabal file and published a package to hackage |
| 18:01:28 | <safinaskar> | does it mean that my package will be slower for all users?! |
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| 18:02:23 | <monochrom> | Apart from a few very rare exceptions, you are not supposed to specify -O2 in the first place. This one is supposed to be a user choice, not an author choice. |
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| 18:02:46 | <sclv> | right. hackage actually yells at you if you try to upload with O2 |
| 18:02:57 | <monochrom> | And the cabal default is -O1. |
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| 18:09:59 | <safinaskar> | thanks |
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| 23:28:43 | <cdsmith> | Well, I'm stumped. In two places in my code, I have `initClassIfNeeded (Proxy :: Proxy cls)` where cls has kind `(* -> *) -> Constraint`. In one place GHC is fine with it. In the other, it says "Couldn't match kind ‘*’ with ‘(* -> *) -> Constraint’" |
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| 23:30:43 | <cdsmith> | Never mind... I figured it out. I needed an explicit forall to use scoped type vars |
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