Logs on 2021-06-19 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:03:11 | <qrpnxz> | applicative ((->) r) is SKI calculus wtf?!?! amazin! |
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| 00:04:07 | <boxscape> | yes it's neat :) though you need newtypes to satisfy haskell's type system and avoid infinite types |
| 00:04:20 | <boxscape> | if you actually want to use it that way |
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| 01:31:01 | <sclv> | slightly lazy question -- how do I check if a port is open to be _potentially_ bound to without actually binding to it? |
| 01:31:36 | <sclv> | I'm setting up some stuff wrapping ssh tunneling and want the nicest way to probe if I can pick a port to tunnel thru for subsequent commands... |
| 01:31:51 | <geekosaur> | I think the best you can do is parse netstat or lsof output |
| 01:32:07 | <sclv> | uggghhhhh |
| 01:32:08 | <geekosaur> | there's no way to ask if a port is available because that's a race condition waiting to happen |
| 01:32:17 | <sclv> | yeah its a race condition and i want to do it anyway lol |
| 01:32:43 | <sclv> | i guess i can just try to do the binding and then parse the failure message if there is one to decide if i want to retry or not :-/ |
| 01:33:14 | <sclv> | like as long as we're just parsing stuff that cli utilities spit out at you |
| 01:34:23 | <sclv> | also could bind to it, then release again i guess... |
| 01:34:56 | <geekosaur> | the usual trick is to pick a port for a service you aren't running locally |
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| 01:38:24 | <dsal> | sclv: can you just tell it to bind to 0 and ask what it got? |
| 01:38:52 | <geekosaur> | no, this is about ssh tunneling, you have to specify |
| 01:38:53 | <sclv> | oh, nice, not a bad idea! |
| 01:39:02 | <sclv> | that works though, lol |
| 01:39:13 | <geekosaur> | if it were C you'd bind to 0 and ask it |
| 01:39:13 | <sclv> | I can bind to 0, see what it gets, then release and just use it |
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| 01:39:26 | <sclv> | i mean its a race condition, but one i can live with |
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| 01:40:13 | <sclv> | (btw the lack of a psshx lib for haskell is a bit of a PITA, but merijn 's posix-pty makes this whole thing livable at least) |
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| 01:40:26 | <geekosaur> | hope ssh uses SO_REUSEPORT |
| 01:41:14 | <sclv> | geekosaur: can't i just release the port I get from binding to 0? |
| 01:41:27 | <sclv> | and then try to use it, knowing it was guaranteed free at least recently? |
| 01:41:29 | <geekosaur> | no, because of TIME_WAIT to wait for any delayed packets |
| 01:41:37 | <sclv> | oh right, damb |
| 01:41:42 | <sclv> | networks suck |
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| 01:41:53 | <Melvar> | Does anyone know if and where I could submit an issue regarding the GHC manual? |
| 01:42:00 | <sclv> | and uh, i should remember this, since i work on network parsing software lol |
| 01:42:15 | <geekosaur> | Melvar, there's a documentation topic in ghc's gitlab |
| 01:44:10 | <geekosaur> | more precisely a documentation label in their issue tracker |
| 01:44:22 | <geekosaur> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues |
| 01:44:28 | <Melvar> | Thank you. |
| 01:46:41 | <Boarders> | when GHC makes a suggestion for a name in scope close to the one you have provided in its error reporting e.g. if you write like lenght instead of length then does anyone know what algorithm GHC uses for that? |
| 01:46:55 | <qrpnxz> | how come 4.14 traversable (https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.1.0/docs/Data-Traversable.html) has a bunch of laws, but 4.15 traversable (https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/Data-Traversable.html) doesn't? |
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| 01:51:49 | <geekosaur> | qrpnxz, it instead contains a reference to https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/Data-Traversable.html#overview which has a "Laws" section |
| 01:52:43 | <geekosaur> | which, since it has the same base url, is just a rearrangement of the page |
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| 01:57:52 | <sclv> | Boarders: https://github.com/ghc/ghc/blob/25977ab542a30df4ae71d9699d015bcdd1ab7cfb/compiler/GHC/Utils/Misc.hs#L989 |
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| 02:03:52 | <Boarders> | thanks! |
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| 02:17:34 | <qrpnxz> | lol i scroll over that page and i miss laws right there thanks |
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| 02:17:59 | <qrpnxz> | btw, how come it has to be a foldable |
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| 02:26:26 | <qrpnxz> | ah you can show all traversable are foldable ok |
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| 03:10:57 | <cdsmith> | Did GHC 9 change anything regarding overlapping instances? I have some code with two overlapping instances (one annotated with OVERLAPPABLE), and GHC 9 chooses the overlappable one, while all earlier GHC choose the other intended instance. |
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| 03:40:08 | <curiousgay> | fix :: (a -> a) -> a |
| 03:40:08 | <curiousgay> | fix f = let x = f x in x |
| 03:40:24 | <curiousgay> | this is an ouch to my brain |
| 03:40:50 | <curiousgay> | fix (\rec x -> if x == 0 then 1 else x * rec (pred x)) 10 == product [1..10] |
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| 03:43:25 | <curiousgay> | I have no idea why that invocation works, it looks illegal |
| 03:51:54 | <c_wraith> | a can unify with a function |
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| 04:08:07 | <c_wraith> | curiousgay: for instance, in that case, fix :: ((Integer -> Integer) -> (Integer -> Intger)) -> (Integer -> Integer) |
| 04:08:49 | <c_wraith> | curiousgay: but some of those parens are redundant, and it's equivalent to fix :: ((Integer -> Integer) -> Integer -> Integer) -> Integer -> Integer |
| 04:09:34 | <c_wraith> | curiousgay: so the lambda has two arguments, the first of type (Integer -> Integer), the second of type Integer, and returns an Integer |
| 04:09:54 | <c_wraith> | curiousgay: and applying fix to that lambda gives you back a function of type Integer -> Integer |
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| 04:13:08 | <curiousgay> | c_wraith: typing here is not enough to understand why it works |
| 04:13:54 | <curiousgay> | `let x = f x in x` is confusing, it looks like a recursion |
| 04:14:06 | <c_wraith> | well, that's why it's not a type error. why it *works* is totally separate |
| 04:14:31 | <curiousgay> | and somehow I need to shorter that one to 4 characters |
| 04:17:16 | <c_wraith> | fix is a combinator for abstracting out general recursion |
| 04:17:43 | <c_wraith> | about the only thing it can't do is polymorphic recursion. |
| 04:18:15 | <c_wraith> | it's generally more of theoretical interest than practical |
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| 04:19:03 | <c_wraith> | though there are certain rare occasions when it can make code look a bit cleaner. but as I said... *rare* occasions |
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| 04:19:53 | <curiousgay> | but that recursive definition looks like it never terminates, but at the same time it somehow finds the value of x while not being a logic programming language? |
| 04:21:07 | curiousgay | thinks even Prolog can't terminate this one |
| 04:21:20 | <c_wraith> | it's not well-founded. it's general recursion. |
| 04:21:42 | <c_wraith> | it will diverge on all sorts of inputs |
| 04:21:54 | <c_wraith> | > fix (+) |
| 04:21:56 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 04:21:56 | <lambdabot> | • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a ~ a -> a |
| 04:21:56 | <lambdabot> | Expected type: (a -> a) -> a -> a |
| 04:22:01 | <monochrom> | Right, termination still depends on what f you choose. |
| 04:22:18 | <c_wraith> | err, that one wasn't even close to well typed. |
| 04:22:32 | <monochrom> | And "x = f x" is meant to express recursion. The whole point of fix. |
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| 04:23:01 | <c_wraith> | > fix $ (0:) . scanl (+) 1 -- this is not a case where fix makes things better, but it's a classic. |
| 04:23:03 | <lambdabot> | [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,... |
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| 04:34:11 | <qrpnxz> | >$< associated the wrong way smh |
| 04:35:50 | <qrpnxz> | lmao that really do give fibbonacci wtf |
| 04:35:57 | <qrpnxz> | *fibonacci |
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| 07:14:03 | <delYsid> | Hmm, I like package.yaml and I find it quite ugly to check autogenerated foo.cabal. I guess I am quite alone on that one? |
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| 07:14:21 | <delYsid> | s/check/check in/ |
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| 07:26:13 | <sm[m]> | delYsid: I also use it except in small packages |
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| 07:31:11 | <delYsid> | sm[m]: You are using package.yaml or you check in your generated .cabal? |
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| 07:34:14 | <sm[m]> | delYsid: both. Usually it's recommended to check it in for non stack users |
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| 07:38:50 | <delYsid> | I can see why that would be useful. I still cringe on checking in generated files.... |
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| 09:15:13 | <maerwald[m]> | @delYsid:libera.chat: well, under normal circumstances they are not generated |
| 09:15:13 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
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| 09:17:48 | <Cajun> | im trying to install the `accelerate` library and im running into some error with `cabal install` involving versioning. i have no idea how to update GHC to a new version (i have 8.8.4) if thats what it requires. ive also had `repa-devil` fail in a similar way with very similar errors. output: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/V22ZOKfz |
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| 09:21:43 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald[m]: interesting, they already left the channel on irc, and your mention of their name is a mxid here on irc |
| 09:22:00 | <maerwald[m]> | I'd try `--allow-older=binary` |
| 09:22:02 | <Axman6> | Cajun: how did you install ghc? |
| 09:22:33 | <Cajun> | its been a while but i followed almost exactly what was on the haskell website. so whatever that suggests, it was that |
| 09:22:34 | <maerwald[m]> | Most of the time, version bounds are incorrect anyway, so mighh be worth a shot |
| 09:23:07 | <tomsmeding> | Cajun: are you sure your ghc is 8.8.4? That error looks like it thinks your installed ghc is 8.7.0 |
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| 09:23:30 | <Cajun> | when i do `ghc -V` it says 8.8.4 |
| 09:23:38 | <tomsmeding> | (if it isn't then dminuoso help your wisdom regarding cabal solver output syntax is needed) |
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| 09:23:47 | <tomsmeding> | Cajun: ah |
| 09:24:03 | <maerwald[m]> | `--allow-older=binary` |
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| 09:26:38 | <Cajun> | maerwald[m] that didnt seem to work https://paste.tomsmeding.com/H7CyPr8Y |
| 09:27:18 | <maerwald[m]> | Then you need at least ghc 8.10.1 |
| 09:27:33 | <tomsmeding> | I'm confused, what package is requiring ghc 8.10 here? |
| 09:27:49 | <tomsmeding> | 'binary' isn't (https://hackage.haskell.org/package/binary-0.8.8.0/binary.cabal) and 'accelerate' also isn't (https://hackage.haskell.org/package/accelerate-1.3.0.0/accelerate.cabal) I believe |
| 09:28:03 | <maerwald[m]> | Binary comes with ghc |
| 09:28:14 | <maerwald[m]> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/commentary/libraries/version-history |
| 09:28:30 | <tomsmeding> | ooooh |
| 09:29:31 | <Cajun> | maerwald[m] if i used ghcup to install, does that only require `ghcup install` to update my GHC version? |
| 09:29:43 | <tomsmeding> | so something in the dep tree requires binary-0.8.8.0 apparently? |
| 09:29:55 | <maerwald[m]> | Yes |
| 09:30:21 | <maerwald[m]> | More qualified would be `ghcup install ghc 8.10.5` |
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| 09:31:37 | <Cajun> | after i updated ghcup `ghcup install` automatically selected 8.10.5. once thats finished ill see if that allows me to install accelerate. would i still require `--allow-older=binary`? |
| 09:32:47 | <tomsmeding> | Cajun: should not be necessary |
| 09:33:32 | <maerwald[m]> | You also need to run `ghcup set` |
| 09:34:07 | <Cajun> | yeah i figured that out after seeing `ghc -V` still say 8.8.4. now `cabal install accelerate` appears to be working fine. many thanks! |
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| 09:35:17 | <tomsmeding> | Cajun: I'm going to check if accelerate can be fixed to also install with ghc 8.8.4 :) |
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| 09:41:53 | <tomsmeding> | hm, if I install ghc 8.8.4 in a clean ubuntu container and then run 'cabal install accelerate --lib', it seems to work |
| 09:42:00 | tomsmeding | cannot reproduce |
| 09:42:51 | <Cajun> | i have the faintest of clues. all i know is updating GHC appears to have worked |
| 09:43:26 | <tomsmeding> | Cajun: cool! :) |
| 09:43:45 | <tomsmeding> | You might want to consider removing the old(er) GHC from your system now that you're using ghcup |
| 09:43:58 | <tomsmeding> | should you want ghc 8.8.4 again, you can always still install it using ghcup |
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| 09:44:51 | <maerwald[m]> | It's possible that overuse of `--lib` caused a weird ghc environment file |
| 09:45:02 | <Cajun> | ill confirm all my current stuff still builds then delete the older version |
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| 09:45:09 | <maerwald[m]> | They are somewhede in ~/.ghc |
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| 09:46:14 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald[m]: hm, sounds plausible |
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| 10:05:20 | <dragestil> | Does anyone have a streaming url for zurihac? I can't find it at https://zfoh.ch/zurihac2021/ |
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| 10:10:22 | <fendor> | dragestil, for the current talk: https://us02web.zoom.us/j/83721486748?pwd=QTV5WXNqWlRhN09sSkRJbWJsRythUT09 |
| 10:11:09 | <dragestil> | Thanks fendor, i thought they use youtube... |
| 10:11:21 | <fendor> | dragestil, for some talks they do |
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| 10:11:56 | <fendor> | I guess, when they want interaction, they use zoom? Idk |
| 10:13:02 | <dragestil> | I was looking for a streaming link for non hackathon / interactive talks but could not find any on their site |
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| 10:14:21 | <dragestil> | I guess the links are posted in discord. Thanks anyway |
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| 10:17:28 | <boxscape> | dragestil originally the plan was to do interactive talks in discord, but there turned out to be a 25 person limit for a room |
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| 10:19:22 | <dragestil> | I see. Not familiar with discord. I guess I'll watch the recording on invidious / youtube when the event is over :) |
| 10:20:04 | <dragestil> | Some talks from yesterday seem to be available already |
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| 10:26:44 | <kuribas> | :i zipWithM |
| 10:26:49 | <kuribas> | :t zipWithM |
| 10:26:50 | <lambdabot> | Applicative m => (a -> b -> m c) -> [a] -> [b] -> m [c] |
| 10:27:52 | <kuribas> | should have been zipWithA |
| 10:27:55 | <kuribas> | :t zipWithA |
| 10:27:57 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 10:27:57 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: zipWithA |
| 10:27:57 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant one of these: |
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| 10:29:03 | <tomsmeding> | :t sequence |
| 10:29:04 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a) |
| 10:29:05 | <tomsmeding> | :t sequenceA |
| 10:29:06 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Applicative f) => t (f a) -> f (t a) |
| 10:29:47 | tomsmeding | wonders why 'sequence' isn't just changed to only require Applicative |
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| 10:30:16 | tomsmeding | realises that that would be a breaking change because it's a class method |
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| 10:43:07 | <kuribas> | I am missing infix for partially applied functions. |
| 10:43:23 | <kuribas> | like: foo `partially 1` bar |
| 10:43:50 | <kuribas> | or: foo `partially 1` bar `partially 2` fu `partially 3` fuga |
| 10:44:44 | <kuribas> | I guess "partially 1 foo $ partially 2 fu $ partially 3 fuga" is fine :-) |
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| 10:51:43 | <teaSlurper> | hey |
| 10:51:48 | <boxscape> | kuribas foo &partially 1$ bar |
| 10:52:11 | <boxscape> | hey teaSlurper |
| 10:52:13 | <teaSlurper> | how do i refer to a variable name in same file that has an ambiguous name with another namespace in the prelude library |
| 10:52:16 | <kuribas> | boxscape: noice :) |
| 10:52:27 | <teaSlurper> | example |
| 10:52:28 | <teaSlurper> | pi |
| 10:52:33 | <kuribas> | teaSlurper: with a qualified import. |
| 10:52:57 | <boxscape> | import qualified MyLibrary as ML |
| 10:52:59 | <boxscape> | ML.pi |
| 10:53:21 | <boxscape> | or just `import qualified MyLibrary` and then `MyLibrary.pi` |
| 10:53:23 | <kuribas> | teaSlurper: you can import the prelude qualified. That said, try to avoid clashing with prelude... |
| 10:53:44 | <boxscape> | oh wait, defined in the same file |
| 10:53:58 | <boxscape> | teaSlurper what I said would only work if it's in a different file, but what kuribas said works |
| 10:53:59 | <teaSlurper> | in same file ye, 'hiding' keyword? |
| 10:54:06 | <boxscape> | yes, hiding works, too |
| 10:54:09 | <boxscape> | import Prelude hiding (pi) |
| 10:54:39 | <teaSlurper> | thx |
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| 10:54:47 | <teaSlurper> | is prelude haskell's standard library? |
| 10:55:07 | <boxscape> | it's the parts of the standard libraries that are imported by default |
| 10:55:31 | <boxscape> | there are other parts of the standard libraries you have to import explicitly |
| 10:55:39 | <boxscape> | like some of the things in Data.List, for example |
| 10:56:10 | <teaSlurper> | i see, thx |
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| 11:14:14 | <boxscape> | anyone got any experience with ImpredicativeTypes? I'm wondering how to make this work https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ig2UQ1O0 |
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| 11:17:57 | <adpRCCaLTxuh> | Go bA(k tO FreEn0dE or n0rTH koReA nukeS YOu |
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| 11:19:04 | <boxscape> | (it's trivial with a newtype but if ImpredicativeTypes works it might be a bit nicer) |
| 11:20:20 | <nitrix> | ) Just closing the paren adpRCCaLTxhh left opened. |
| 11:20:40 | <boxscape> | appreciated |
| 11:20:41 | <nitrix> | Okay I feel better now. |
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| 11:35:07 | <teaSlurper> | is there a function pattern for "match once first" |
| 11:35:11 | <teaSlurper> | or do this first |
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| 11:37:10 | <boxscape> | teaSlurper hmm, it's not really clear to me what you're asking |
| 11:37:29 | <boxscape> | maybe an example would help |
| 11:37:46 | <teaSlurper> | i'm generating a bunch of fractionals |
| 11:37:51 | <teaSlurper> | going down from n |
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| 11:38:17 | <teaSlurper> | so n = 4, [1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 1/1] |
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| 11:40:36 | <teaSlurper> | i solved the problem is cool, but in a different way |
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| 11:48:43 | <kuribas> | What's your opinion on testing on the REPL vs unit tests? |
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| 11:49:17 | <kuribas> | I can see an advantage for unit tests (and property tests) when you have complicated algorithms or business logic, that may still evolve. |
| 11:49:36 | <kuribas> | However is there a point in unit testing simple functions which do one thing, and can easily be tested on the REPL? |
| 11:50:10 | <teaSlurper> | i don't know anything about unit-testing with haskell, but the idea is all your tests are automated |
| 11:50:18 | <teaSlurper> | in general |
| 11:50:26 | <Morrow> | You can have your cake and eat it too |
| 11:50:26 | <kuribas> | well, you need to write them first :) |
| 11:50:43 | <Morrow> | You can load up your test file in the REPL |
| 11:50:49 | <teaSlurper> | unit testing acts as a form of documentation in a way aswell |
| 11:51:12 | <teaSlurper> | and keeps a history of edge cases you've tested |
| 11:51:30 | <kuribas> | they also take up time in CICD if you have a lot of them. |
| 11:51:31 | <teaSlurper> | and catches bugs in regressions |
| 11:51:44 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: sounds to me like a lack of ergonomics in specifying tests; if writing the unit test would be just as easy as opening a repl and entering it there, then you wouldn't ask the question |
| 11:51:47 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps doctests? |
| 11:51:47 | <Morrow> | Especially with frameworks that have test caching |
| 11:52:03 | tomsmeding | isn't sure how ergonomic the tooling around doctests is, but it exists |
| 11:52:09 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: doctests are nice :) |
| 11:52:31 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: tests are also code, which needs to be maintained. |
| 11:52:58 | <tomsmeding> | also true |
| 11:53:06 | <teaSlurper> | with repl you can only test if your code works now, oppose to against future changes which is what unit tests are for more than anything perhaps |
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| 11:54:05 | <teaSlurper> | if 1 function stops working from a future change it could break 5 other unit tests |
| 11:54:31 | <teaSlurper> | make em all green, then you know with more confidence your thing as a whole works |
| 11:54:53 | <kuribas> | tomsmeding: I find unit tests in haskell quite ergonomic. |
| 11:55:59 | <tomsmeding> | don't get me wrong, I'm quite bad at getting myself to write tests in the first place for anything but the most complicated code |
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| 11:57:17 | <kuribas> | I don't think code quality is a measure of number of unit tests. |
| 11:57:34 | <kuribas> | We hardly have any unit tests in our code, but the quality is quite high. |
| 11:57:58 | <kuribas> | In another company we had more tests than code :) The code was aweful. |
| 11:58:32 | <kuribas> | Although in one project (our REST API) we now have a large amount of tests. |
| 11:58:43 | <hpc> | sometimes how hard it is to write tests is the test itself |
| 11:58:58 | <hpc> | as soon as it becomes hard to test something, you know it has modularity problems |
| 11:59:00 | <kuribas> | I feel I could write the same code with 1/10 the tests, and more confidence by doing it in haskell (vs clojure). |
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| 11:59:41 | <kuribas> | hpc: certainly |
| 11:59:48 | <kuribas> | but it can be easy and still tedious :) |
| 11:59:51 | <kuribas> | to find all edge cases. |
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| 12:00:46 | <kuribas> | maybe property tests are better in that case;.. |
| 12:02:25 | <tomsmeding> | property tests take away one dimension of "finding edge cases", but sometimes there are more such dimensions |
| 12:02:56 | <hpc> | they save you a lot of "basic" unit tests |
| 12:03:06 | <tomsmeding> | which can sometimes also be covered with more generic generators, but not always |
| 12:03:07 | <hpc> | you only have to write out the tricky cases by hand |
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| 12:04:13 | <tomsmeding> | I recently wrote tests for a tricky program transformation; property testing allowed me to leave selecting _inputs_ for the transformed programs to the randomiser, but generating random _programs_ is hard enough that I resolved to writing those by hand |
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| 12:09:13 | <tomsmeding> | (I did try generating programs for a bit, but then rediscovered how that's a hard problem :p) |
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| 13:01:34 | <maerwald> | Property tests are only as good as your generators and writing good generators for non trivial data is very hard |
| 13:02:29 | <maerwald> | I prefer unit tests, unless the data is simple or I have a genius idea about a good generator |
| 13:06:44 | <Rembane> | I did my master thesis on generating random programs using QuickCheck and I can vouch that it is a hard problem. Pałka et al has a good paper on it though. |
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| 13:12:41 | <tomsmeding> | Rembane: this one? https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1982595.1982615 |
| 13:12:59 | <Rembane> | tomsmeding: Bingo! |
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| 13:15:12 | <Axman6> | I have scoped type variables enabled, but I'm getting Could not deduce Parameter a0 from context Parameter a for this code, what am I missing? |
| 13:15:13 | <Axman6> | elementMod :: forall a. Parameter a => Integer -> ElementMod a |
| 13:15:14 | <Axman6> | elementMod n = ElementMod (n `mod` param' @a Proxy) |
| 13:15:33 | <Axman6> | where class Parameter (a :: ParamName) where param' :: p a -> Integer |
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| 13:16:29 | <Axman6> | and newtype ElementMod (n :: ParamName) = ElementMod Integer in case that's not clear |
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| 13:18:26 | <Axman6> | uh actually, the error is in this: |
| 13:18:27 | <Axman6> | param :: forall a. Parameter a => Integer |
| 13:18:27 | <Axman6> | param = param' (Proxy :: Proxy a) |
| 13:19:57 | <Axman6> | ok, I guess I don't need that function, problem solved |
| 13:20:17 | <tomsmeding> | Axman6: are you sure that function gives an error while scopedtypevariables is enabled? |
| 13:21:09 | <tomsmeding> | ooh right the problem is that the type 'Integer', in the type signature for 'param', does not mention the type variable 'a' |
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| 13:21:30 | <tomsmeding> | so in a usage of 'param' GHC will never (without an explicit type application) be able to infer with what type variable to instantiate that 'a' |
| 13:22:18 | <tomsmeding> | to let ghc stop complaining and hence be forced to use an explicit type application, you can enable AllowAmbiguousTypes as the error says, but I strongly advise against that :p |
| 13:24:28 | <tomsmeding> | if only because AllowAmbiguousTypes is a sledgehammer that is bound to give super weird effects in other places |
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| 13:28:58 | <dminuoso> | What super weird effects do you get? |
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| 13:40:53 | <tomsmeding> | you don't get any if you are flawless, but in my experience, making doing something wrong in the vicinity of ambiguous types with that extension on gives very odd type errors if you aren't prepared for it |
| 13:41:04 | <tomsmeding> | but maybe my memory makes it worse than it was :p |
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| 13:45:30 | <dminuoso> | I'm flawless, which is why I -fdefer-type-errors. GHC is just wrong. |
| 13:46:56 | <dminuoso> | The GHC user manual at least suggests that AllowAmbiguousTypes can interact badly with RankNTypes sometimes |
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| 13:47:33 | <dminuoso> | Interestingly the example listed seems like it might not even compile with simplified subsumption. |
| 13:47:36 | <dminuoso> | https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/ambiguous_types.html |
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| 15:08:37 | <Lycurgus> | retrie is copyright facebook, glad it's not part of anything that could go out the door |
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| 15:10:48 | <phaazon> | what’s the literal name of <$ / $> ? |
| 15:11:05 | <dminuoso> | Of what? |
| 15:11:12 | <phaazon> | mapping with const |
| 15:11:12 | <dminuoso> | Oh. Haha. I read that as a single operator. |
| 15:11:22 | <phaazon> | I’m implementing a similar thing in Rust |
| 15:11:28 | <phaazon> | and since we don’t have custom operators… :D |
| 15:11:34 | <phaazon> | I plan to call that const_map |
| 15:11:36 | <phaazon> | but meh |
| 15:11:38 | <phaazon> | too long! |
| 15:12:14 | <dminuoso> | Mmm, I had never pondered about it. Personally, I might call it fconst perhaps. |
| 15:12:18 | <dminuoso> | (both of them) |
| 15:12:33 | <dminuoso> | Though I never used $> before. Just a lot of <$ |
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| 15:13:08 | Lycurgus | thought / was part of the thing at first |
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| 15:13:35 | <tomsmeding> | @hoogle <$/$> |
| 15:13:36 | <lambdabot> | No results found |
| 15:13:41 | tomsmeding | is disappointed |
| 15:14:22 | <tomsmeding> | phaazon: probably bad name, but in my mind I call it "replace" |
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| 15:15:02 | <tomsmeding> | (possibly replace_with) |
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| 15:16:50 | <phaazon> | I’ll stick around const_map :P |
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| 16:23:27 | <tomsmeding> | is there an overview of which ghc language extensions imply which ones? |
| 16:23:55 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: the GHC user manual. |
| 16:24:24 | <tomsmeding> | also in transposed form? i.e. to check which extensions imply extension X |
| 16:24:40 | <tomsmeding> | I know the user manual says which are implied _by_ X :) |
| 16:25:10 | <tomsmeding> | oh wait the overview does seem to have that info |
| 16:25:44 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: impliedXFlags in GHC/Driver/Session.hs |
| 16:26:06 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) () |
| 16:26:10 | <dminuoso> | Though, at first glance that seems to diverse from the user manual strangely |
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| 16:26:36 | <dminuoso> | Ah no, I just misread |
| 16:26:39 | <dminuoso> | That's it |
| 16:26:53 | <tomsmeding> | okay then extension implications apparently don't answer my core question which is: why the hell does ghc want me to set LANGUAGE PatternGuards to use pattern guards in one project but not the other |
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| 16:28:16 | <Melvar> | Maybe one of them has PatternGuards as a default-extension in the cabal file (or equivalent)? |
| 16:28:57 | <geekosaur> | one is implied language Haskell98? |
| 16:29:15 | <geekosaur> | PG should be H2010 |
| 16:30:36 | <dminuoso> | NoPatternGuards seems to be implied by Haskell98 |
| 16:30:37 | <tomsmeding> | I explicitly have default-language: Haskell2010 in the project where I get the warning |
| 16:33:15 | tomsmeding | is confused, hold on |
| 16:34:34 | <tomsmeding> | somehow the default-language from the .cabal file is not getting read? |
| 16:34:43 | <tomsmeding> | having LANGUAGE Haskell2010 _does_ silence the warning |
| 16:36:11 | <tomsmeding> | MAN "Warning: ircbrowse.cabal:101:3: The field "default-language" is available only since the Cabal specification version 1.10. This field will be ignored." |
| 16:36:22 | <tomsmeding> | please ignore my rambling my problem hath been solved |
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| 16:39:06 | <tomsmeding> | that's what I get for picking up a years-old project I guess |
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| 17:56:44 | <gentauro> | tomsmeding: I have `default-language: Haskell98` in all of my .cabal files. Are you saying its not being read? |
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| 17:58:37 | <geekosaur> | <tomsmeding> MAN "Warning: ircbrowse.cabal:101:3: The field "default-language" is available only since the Cabal specification version 1.10. This field will be ignored." |
| 17:58:52 | <geekosaur> | <tomsmeding> that's what I get for picking up a years-old project I guess |
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| 18:24:39 | <tomsmeding> | Yep thanks geekosaur, gentauro: it is being read, as long as your cabal version is specified to be >= 1.10 |
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| 18:29:23 | <monochrom> | IIRC if your cabal-version: field is high enough, the default becomes Haskell2010 |
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| 18:30:31 | <monochrom> | oops, default becomes whatever the compiler defaults to. https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/file-format-changelog.html#cabal-version-3-4 |
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| 18:39:11 | <arjun> | hi! anyone here uses haskell-mode with emacs ? |
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| 18:40:08 | <dminuoso> | Yes. |
| 18:40:58 | <arjun> | dminuoso: i am having issues with interactive part |
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| 18:41:20 | <arjun> | "Could not load module ‘Options.Applicative’ |
| 18:41:20 | <arjun> | It is a member of the hidden package ‘optparse-applicative-0.16.1.0’. |
| 18:41:20 | <arjun> | Perhaps you need to add ‘optparse-applicative’ to the build-depends in your .cabal file. |
| 18:41:20 | <arjun> | It is a member of the hidden package ‘optparse-applicative-0.15.1.0’. |
| 18:41:23 | <arjun> | Perhaps you need to add ‘optparse-applicative’ to the build-depends in your .cabal file." |
| 18:41:31 | <arjun> | when clearly it's in my cabal file ? |
| 18:41:57 | <dminuoso> | Do you use stack/cabal/nix? |
| 18:42:03 | <arjun> | cabal |
| 18:42:10 | <dminuoso> | What is your haskell-process-type set to? |
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| 18:42:24 | <arjun> | auto -> cabal-repl ? |
| 18:42:47 | <dminuoso> | It probably should be cabal-new-repl, try that one. |
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| 18:43:04 | <arjun> | dminuoso: cabal-new-repl seems depriciated |
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| 18:44:14 | <arjun> | i am trying to load a file from a project into the repl with (C-c C-l) |
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| 18:44:42 | <arjun> | am i missing something here? |
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| 18:44:57 | <dminuoso> | arjun: Hold on, is optparse-applicative in your build-depends? |
| 18:45:18 | <arjun> | sure |
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| 18:45:40 | <arjun> | its the ghcup-hs repo |
| 18:46:06 | <dminuoso> | Is there multiple components? |
| 18:46:32 | <arjun> | dminuoso: looks like |
| 18:46:32 | <dminuoso> | Ah there you go |
| 18:46:36 | <arjun> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/blob/master/ghcup.cabal |
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| 18:46:43 | <dminuoso> | `cabal repl` doesnt support multiple components (yet) |
| 18:46:51 | <dminuoso> | It probably uses the "wrong" component |
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| 18:47:15 | <arjun> | dminuoso: that must be it! |
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| 18:47:31 | <dminuoso> | Or hold on. No it doesnt suppport multiple projects |
| 18:47:36 | <dminuoso> | What it does with multiple components, I have no clue |
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| 18:48:03 | <arjun> | dminuoso: there's also a cabal.project file in there to spice it up more |
| 18:48:13 | <arjun> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/blob/master/cabal.project |
| 18:48:32 | <dminuoso> | That shouldnt matter |
| 18:49:25 | <arjun> | dminuoso: when i go here -> https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/blob/master/app/ghcup/Main.hs |
| 18:49:27 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: with multiple components, `cabal repl` errors out and asks you to specify a component |
| 18:49:42 | <arjun> | and try to load the file with C-c C-l |
| 18:49:55 | <tomsmeding> | Rembane: is that Palka paper the state of the art, or is there a less ad-hoc approach known? :P |
| 18:49:59 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Are you sure? Judging from the code it should work |
| 18:50:09 | <arjun> | it builds some stuff and then pops up those hidden module errors : / |
| 18:50:20 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: haven't looked at cabal's source, just user experience :p |
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| 18:50:29 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: you probably experienced multiple packages |
| 18:50:42 | <dminuoso> | arjun: judging fom the source code `cabal repl`, if no target is specified, will default to: |
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| 18:50:52 | <dminuoso> | 1. the library, if there's exactly one buildable library |
| 18:51:10 | <dminuoso> | 2. the executable, if there's exactly one buildable executable |
| 18:51:15 | <tomsmeding> | Hmm I might have, sorry for the noise then |
| 18:51:37 | <tomsmeding> | Though in my case the cabal file has 2 executables |
| 18:51:42 | <dminuoso> | arjun: so your `cabal repl` likely defaults to the (unnamed) library |
| 18:51:58 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Like I said above. |
| 18:52:02 | <arjun> | dminuoso: that's probably it |
| 18:52:10 | <arjun> | dminuoso: what do i do here? |
| 18:52:34 | <dminuoso> | arjun: you can specify by running `cabal repl ghcup:exe:ghcup` |
| 18:52:58 | <arjun> | dminuoso: from the terminal or emacs? |
| 18:53:04 | <dminuoso> | Yes. |
| 18:53:05 | <arjun> | pardon the noobness |
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| 18:53:34 | <dminuoso> | arjun: It doesnt matter. If you invoke `cabal repl` from the terminal, you should observe the same behavior. Can you verify? |
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| 18:55:57 | <arjun> | dminuoso: right. so it seemed it worked from terminal |
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| 18:56:11 | <dminuoso> | Mmm |
| 18:56:26 | <dminuoso> | arjun: so `cabal repl` from terminal lets you import Options.Applicative? |
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| 18:56:34 | <dminuoso> | Or did you run `cabal repl ghcup:exe:ghcup`? |
| 18:56:41 | <arjun> | the second one |
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| 18:57:01 | <arjun> | caba repl whatyousaid |
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| 18:57:24 | <dminuoso> | arjun: for emacs, I believe it could be sufficient to: M-: (set haskell-process-args-cabal-repl "ghcup:exe:ghcup") |
| 18:57:37 | <dminuoso> | this is very inconvenient obviously, but right now there's no other way |
| 18:57:47 | <dminuoso> | err *setq |
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| 18:59:19 | <dminuoso> | Ideally there should be a setting that if set, would read-string for the cabal target each time cabal commands are invoked. |
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| 19:00:38 | <arjun> | dminuoso: i restarted the process after setq'ing it |
| 19:00:55 | <arjun> | i guess i messed up somewhere because eveyting is dying now : P |
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| 19:03:17 | <arjun> | dminuoso: hang on. let me kill emacs and try again. maybe i found something |
| 19:03:35 | <arjun> | i'd have to log back in here since i am on here with ERC : P |
| 19:03:36 | <arjun> | brb |
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| 19:04:06 | <Cajun> | so i updated my GHC last night to 8.10.5 and im trying to install `friday` from cabal, but its complaining about `accelerate` among other things. i successfully installed `accelerate` yesterday so i have no idea why its complaining about it. output: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/w9xudI7Z |
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| 19:05:36 | <dminuoso> | Cajun: So ideally just stop using `cabal install --lib` |
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| 19:06:20 | <arjun> | dminuoso: back |
| 19:06:25 | <arjun> | ITS A WIN |
| 19:06:29 | <Cajun> | in what other way should i go about installing the library? |
| 19:06:31 | <dminuoso> | The problem has to do with the fact that each project you install produces fixed constraints. This quickly leads to unbuildable projects if you install one lib at a time. |
| 19:06:57 | <dminuoso> | Cajun: Presumably you're writing some software project, right? |
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| 19:07:23 | <arjun> | dminuoso: so what you have to do is. first let it start in whatever target it starts. then you CHANGE the target with `haskell-session-change-target` |
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| 19:07:51 | <dminuoso> | arjun: Ah, that sounds better indeed. |
| 19:08:01 | <dminuoso> | Im not familiar with haskell interactive mode, so Im just skimming the source |
| 19:08:12 | <arjun> | dminuoso: you were a real help |
| 19:08:13 | <dminuoso> | arjun: since you appear to be using haskell-mode yourself |
| 19:08:17 | <dminuoso> | can you give me 5 minutes of your time? |
| 19:08:27 | <arjun> | dminuoso: you have em. |
| 19:08:31 | <Cajun> | dminuoso: working through the parallel/concurrent textbook and `repa-devil` for one of the examples is deprecated in favor of `friday`. i have no idea how to use cabal (i know more about stack, but stack just hates building this project) so adding it to the dependencies seems daunting |
| 19:08:50 | <dminuoso> | arjun: Can you try and reproduce this one quickly? https://github.com/haskell/haskell-mode/issues/1751 |
| 19:08:56 | <dminuoso> | (please try both terminal and gui mode) |
| 19:09:36 | <dminuoso> | Cajun: So the usual method is to set up a project directly, use `cabal init`, and then add all dependencies to the build-depends section |
| 19:09:56 | <dminuoso> | Then, assuming you have a relatively recent version of cabal, you just `cabal build`, and it will automatically grab dependencies for you |
| 19:10:24 | <dminuoso> | arjun: if you're on nix, dont use my nix expression. |
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| 19:10:35 | <amirouche> | hello |
| 19:10:56 | <arjun> | dminuoso: i am just reading through the issue now. |
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| 19:11:06 | <arjun> | i was having similar scroll problems |
| 19:11:16 | <arjun> | solved them by disabling lsp-ui-mode |
| 19:11:33 | <amirouche> | what is the name of the relation between to predicates p1 and p2, for all x, p1(x) != p2(x) |
| 19:11:34 | <amirouche> | ? |
| 19:11:39 | <amirouche> | s/to/two/ |
| 19:11:42 | <dminuoso> | arjun: are you on graphical emacs or terminal? |
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| 19:12:08 | <arjun> | dminuoso: graphical. pgtk nativecomp at that : P |
| 19:12:44 | <dminuoso> | arjun: then it likely wouldnt reproduce. but give it a run in both gui and terminal |
| 19:12:48 | <dminuoso> | so far I can only reproduce in terminal |
| 19:13:04 | <arjun> | i see. |
| 19:13:09 | <dminuoso> | I havent quite figured out what makes terminal so special, because the underlying issue should be apparent in both |
| 19:13:57 | <Cajun> | dminuoso: thanks a bunch, im new to cabal and adding it to the project dependencies went entirely over my head |
| 19:14:43 | <dminuoso> | Cajun: It should be really straight forward. Feel free to present any issue you have |
| 19:16:41 | tomsmeding | thought the thing of adding dependencies to the project instead of installing them globally worked that way with stack too |
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| 19:22:03 | <arjun> | dminuoso: i think i do not get what i have to cut paste repeatedly? |
| 19:22:09 | <dminuoso> | mmm |
| 19:22:35 | <arjun> | the file is 11575 lines |
| 19:22:56 | <dminuoso> | arjun: Yes. Go to the last definition of `info` |
| 19:23:01 | <dminuoso> | And then cut everything below it |
| 19:23:23 | <arjun> | did |
| 19:23:26 | <arjun> | now ? |
| 19:23:30 | <dminuoso> | yank it back in |
| 19:23:32 | <dminuoso> | repeat 3-4 times |
| 19:23:48 | <arjun> | undo it? |
| 19:23:51 | <dminuoso> | No |
| 19:23:53 | <arjun> | or cut it again? |
| 19:24:00 | <dminuoso> | you shouldnt even have undo-tree-mode enabled :) |
| 19:24:03 | <dminuoso> | cut it again |
| 19:24:11 | <arjun> | yea, i read the instructions |
| 19:24:14 | <arjun> | disabled it |
| 19:24:36 | <dminuoso> | the idea is to simulate some editing by removing stuff and inserting it |
| 19:26:23 | <dminuoso> | The size of chunk is just what I experimentally determined to work fast with just 3-4 cut and yank operations to make scrolling over the top part incredibly slow. |
| 19:26:48 | <arjun> | dminuoso: can reproduce |
| 19:27:00 | <arjun> | slow af after 5-6 cut/pastes |
| 19:27:01 | <dminuoso> | arjun: just on terminal or gui too? |
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| 19:27:18 | <arjun> | fast af after i M-: (garbage-collect) |
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| 19:27:40 | <arjun> | dminuoso: this was on terminal (emacs -nw) |
| 19:27:51 | <dminuoso> | Alright, this is good. can you make a not in the issue and include your emacs version, as well as the output of your `C-h v system-configuration-options` |
| 19:28:19 | <arjun> | its the default terminal gnome emluator not something gpu accelerated like alacritty |
| 19:28:30 | <dminuoso> | yeah thats fine |
| 19:28:34 | <arjun> | dminuoso: i guess? give me a sec. |
| 19:28:34 | <dminuoso> | its not related to the terminal |
| 19:28:49 | <dminuoso> | Ive pinpointed the immediate cause of the slowness, I just dont know what triggers it |
| 19:29:07 | <dminuoso> | there's something about the font locking code in haskell-mode that appears to introduce markers for each line inserted |
| 19:29:25 | <arjun> | lsp-mode scrolling is also screwed up |
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| 19:29:40 | <qrpnxz> | how come Applicative and Monad are in Control, but Functor is in Data? |
| 19:29:43 | <arjun> | which gets better after disabling lsp-ui-mode, i found out. |
| 19:29:48 | <dminuoso> | qrpnxz: hysterical raisins |
| 19:29:55 | <qrpnxz> | wut |
| 19:30:16 | <arjun> | qrpnxz: he probably want's to say "historical reasons" |
| 19:30:19 | <dminuoso> | It's a homophone on "historical reasons" |
| 19:30:25 | <geekosaur> | "historical reasons" aka nobody really thought things out back then |
| 19:30:30 | <qrpnxz> | lol |
| 19:30:56 | <boxscape> | qrpnxz https://www.tweag.io/blog/2020-01-16-data-vs-control/ |
| 19:31:02 | <qrpnxz> | i thought maybe there was a deeper philosophical reason |
| 19:31:04 | <qrpnxz> | ty box |
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| 19:32:10 | <qrpnxz> | oh boy it's bringing up linear types |
| 19:32:12 | <qrpnxz> | hahaha |
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| 19:32:44 | <dminuoso> | boxscape: That seems more like a retroactive definition. |
| 19:32:51 | ormaaj | is now known as iteratee |
| 19:32:56 | <boxscape> | dminuoso ...yes, I suppose it is |
| 19:33:55 | <qrpnxz> | even if it's retroactive it can be valid. If they put them in the correct modules by accident, it would still be correct xD |
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| 19:34:08 | <qrpnxz> | and they coulda changed it |
| 19:34:27 | <boxscape> | well, things change slowly in base |
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| 19:35:10 | <boxscape> | (for good reason, since you wouldn't want every package maintainer to have to change their import list for this change) |
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| 19:38:27 | <arjun> | dminuoso: https://github.com/haskell/haskell-mode/issues/1751#issuecomment-864454402 |
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| 19:39:03 | iteratee | is now known as ormaaj |
| 19:40:29 | <dminuoso> | arjun: cheers, which exact version did you use? |
| 19:40:52 | <arjun> | dminuoso: uhm, version of what? |
| 19:41:36 | <qrpnxz> | interesting article box, thought i don't see how these linearly typed modifications relate to the actual fun, app, mon classes in base |
| 19:41:47 | <dminuoso> | arjun: your emacs? |
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| 19:42:17 | <arjun> | dminuoso: This is GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 3, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.29, cairo version 1.17.4) |
| 19:42:17 | <arjun> | of 2021-06-04 |
| 19:42:18 | <arjun> | Copyright (C) 2021 Free Software Foundation, Inc. |
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| 19:42:32 | <dminuoso> | Cheers, could you include that into your comment as well? That's it, you've been a big help./ |
| 19:42:53 | <arjun> | dminuoso: hey, you help people, you get helped. period. |
| 19:43:13 | <qrpnxz> | nvm i think i get it |
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| 19:44:41 | <arjun> | dminuoso: did the edit. |
| 19:44:43 | <arjun> | see you around |
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| 19:45:05 | <qrpnxz> | boxscape, is it the case then that all functor instances for monad instances are these kinds of linear control functors? |
| 19:45:23 | <qrpnxz> | and likewise that data.applicatives don't have monad instances? |
| 19:45:50 | <boxscape> | qrpnxz I believe so, though I haven't thought about it in detail |
| 19:45:50 | <qrpnxz> | or rather "data.monad" lol |
| 19:45:58 | <qrpnxz> | very very interesting |
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| 19:46:14 | <qrpnxz> | thx again |
| 19:46:25 | <boxscape> | you're welcome |
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| 20:12:48 | <boxscape> | ugh, the haskell report says "variables bound by let have fully polymorphic types while those defined by <-are lambda bound and are thus monomorphic" and then gives the identity laws for <- in terms of let |
| 20:13:02 | <boxscape> | oh wait |
| 20:13:15 | <boxscape> | I suppose the let defines a function, which is the same as a lambda |
| 20:13:24 | <boxscape> | I guess that's the important bit |
| 20:15:56 | <boxscape> | mainly I'm wondering if having `do {x <- ask; return x}` throw a compile time error, but `ask >>= \x -> return x` work in some situations constitutes a GHC bug or could be seen as expected behavior |
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| 20:19:49 | <boxscape> | (this is the example I'm looking at https://paste.tomsmeding.com/RNgN10f2 ) |
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| 20:20:18 | <dminuoso> | boxscape: which GHC version? |
| 20:20:22 | <boxscape> | HEAD |
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| 20:20:33 | <boxscape> | (i.e. 9.3) |
| 20:20:34 | <dminuoso> | Has quicklook been merged into that already? |
| 20:20:37 | <boxscape> | yes |
| 20:21:09 | <dminuoso> | Curious, what compilation error do you get? |
| 20:21:22 | <boxscape> | right, I was going to include that, hold on |
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| 20:22:47 | <boxscape> | dminuoso https://paste.tomsmeding.com/h9KZpAeO |
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| 20:25:30 | <dminuoso> | boxscape: Judging from the haskell report, your quoted section does seem to apply, no? |
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| 20:26:11 | <boxscape> | yes, but I would expect that this shouldn't make the two different? Since x is "lambda bound" in both |
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| 20:26:43 | <boxscape> | (Not sure if you were arguing for it being a bug or it being expected, actually) |
| 20:27:01 | <dminuoso> | The term "lambda bound" is sadly not defined anywhere |
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| 20:30:42 | <dminuoso> | boxscape: but I guess you are right |
| 20:32:17 | <dminuoso> | boxscape: out of curiosity, is this in GHCi or GHC? |
| 20:32:22 | <boxscape> | ghci |
| 20:32:58 | <dminuoso> | I stumbled over some fancy bits suggesting that there's some subtle differences in type checking depending on whether its in GHCi or not.... |
| 20:33:03 | <dminuoso> | o.o |
| 20:33:12 | <boxscape> | huh, well, I'll try ghc |
| 20:33:35 | <boxscape> | same thing |
| 20:33:38 | <dminuoso> | boxscape: judging from the code its the other way around |
| 20:33:42 | <dminuoso> | ghci admits slightly more |
| 20:33:46 | <boxscape> | I see |
| 20:36:38 | <boxscape> | dminuoso it could be that due to RankNTypes variables bound by lambdas can be polymorphic (during checking, but not inference) but that this doesn't extend to variables bound by <-. Which would not need to be covered by the report since it doesn't have RankNTypes |
| 20:38:31 | <boxscape> | I wonder if I can find an example of this that doesn't need ImpredicativeTypes, but RankNTypes |
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| 20:45:53 | <dminuoso> | boxscape: what about `newtype F = F (forall s. s)` and `do { F s <- ... }`? |
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| 20:48:03 | <boxscape> | dminuoso ah, interesting, that doesn't produce a compile error, and s is indeed polymorphic |
| 20:49:10 | <boxscape> | I suppose I'll report it as a bug then |
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| 21:06:34 | <boxscape> | turns out the Reader newtype isn't necessary, the same thing happens without it, but *only* if ImpredicativeTypes is on, otherwise neither version will compile |
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| 21:40:29 | <qrpnxz> | eh, bind is kind of like traverse. If i map kleisi over a monad and then join it, that's bind. Likewise if i map a "normal" func over a traversal and then sequence it, that's traverse. |
| 21:40:49 | <qrpnxz> | they both kind of "collapse" |
| 21:40:51 | <dminuoso> | qrpnxz: not quite |
| 21:41:09 | <qrpnxz> | what's not quite what |
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| 21:41:25 | <dminuoso> | % :t sequence |
| 21:41:26 | <yahb> | dminuoso: (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a) |
| 21:41:27 | <dminuoso> | % :t join |
| 21:41:27 | <yahb> | dminuoso: Monad m => m (m a) -> m a |
| 21:41:53 | <qrpnxz> | yes |
| 21:41:57 | <dminuoso> | qrpnxz: sequence sort of "flips" these two around (which amounts to running the effects in some structure, in sequence, while putting the results back in) |
| 21:42:02 | <dminuoso> | There's no "collapse" |
| 21:42:55 | <dminuoso> | Let's set t ~ [], m ~ IO and a ~ Int for arguments sake: |
| 21:43:02 | <dminuoso> | [IO Int] -> IO [Int] |
| 21:43:09 | <dminuoso> | See how the list is still there at the end? |
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| 21:43:38 | <qrpnxz> | ya know i put scare quotes on that for a reason lol |
| 21:43:46 | <qrpnxz> | point is they are kinda similar |
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| 21:44:08 | <dminuoso> | only in the sense that `sequence` uses `join/bind` internally |
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| 21:44:15 | <dminuoso> | but that's the extend of it. |
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| 21:44:33 | <dminuoso> | strictly speaking, it doesnt even need join/bin, applicative is enough |
| 21:44:38 | <dminuoso> | % :t sequenceA |
| 21:44:39 | <yahb> | dminuoso: (Traversable t, Applicative f) => t (f a) -> f (t a) |
| 21:45:04 | <qrpnxz> | i think the idea that there's a map of a certain kind of function and then the results has a magical transformation is what i'm drawn to |
| 21:45:27 | <dminuoso> | well sure, there's a sort of visual similarity between |
| 21:45:31 | <dminuoso> | % :t (=<<) |
| 21:45:32 | <yahb> | dminuoso: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b |
| 21:45:35 | <dminuoso> | % :t traverse |
| 21:45:36 | <yahb> | dminuoso: (Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b) |
| 21:47:30 | <qrpnxz> | (=<<) f = join . fmap f and traverse f = sequence . fmap f |
| 21:48:25 | <qrpnxz> | so then i wonder like monad is a thing in category theory, i wonder if then also traversal has a kind of thing in cat theory as well that is simple idk |
| 21:49:43 | <qrpnxz> | I think i read somewhere that if you can form a kleisli category for your type then it's a monad. I wonder if there's something like that for tranverse |
| 21:49:55 | <qrpnxz> | *traverse |
| 21:50:27 | <dminuoso> | So Im looking at a paper that introduces the notion of a "traversable functor" defined as |
| 21:51:05 | <qrpnxz> | would that be to traversable as applicative is to monads? |
| 21:51:35 | <qrpnxz> | sorry i'll let you finish |
| 21:51:44 | <dminuoso> | T : Set -> Set, equipped with a family of natural transfomrations δ_f_x : TFX - > FTX natural in F and respecting the monoidal structure of applicative functor composition. |
| 21:52:17 | <qrpnxz> | that's beyond me lol |
| 21:52:25 | <qrpnxz> | i'll look into it tho |
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| 21:54:11 | <dminuoso> | Well I guess this really is just a traversable functor |
| 21:54:20 | <dminuoso> | It's a 1:1 mapping of the traversable laws |
| 21:54:25 | <qrpnxz> | yes |
| 21:54:33 | <dminuoso> | If we consider |
| 21:54:37 | <dminuoso> | traverse (Compose . fmap g . f) = Compose . fmap (traverse g) . traverse f |
| 21:54:40 | <dminuoso> | traverse Identity = Identity |
| 21:55:06 | <dminuoso> | Identity being the identity element with respect to functor composition |
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| 21:55:45 | <dminuoso> | qrpnxz: but really, its different from monad in a lot of ways |
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| 21:56:35 | <dminuoso> | In some way you can think of traversal as being able to update with sequenced effects, but that is independent of which monad being used. |
| 21:56:42 | <qrpnxz> | Yeah they are for totally different things afaict. It just seemed neat that they kind of "rhyme" |
| 21:57:07 | <dminuoso> | qrpnxz: If you care for such pleasantries, you might perhaps be interested in the inner workings on `lens` perhaps. |
| 21:57:52 | <qrpnxz> | i've been looking into lens a lot yeah. The traversal class in particular. The author made a really nice presentation on it that kind of blew my mind and i have to watch it again xd |
| 21:58:09 | <dminuoso> | Lenses are coalgebras of the costate comonad. |
| 21:58:15 | <dminuoso> | :) |
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| 21:58:25 | <qrpnxz> | 😂️ |
| 21:59:00 | <qrpnxz> | i'm reading through The Essence of the Iterator Pattern right now thought, because i want better foundation in my head for traversable before i can look more into traversal |
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| 23:02:52 | <janus> | how can i make a cabal script with {- cabal: ... -} use a dependency from my local system? |
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| 23:10:52 | <geekosaur> | I think both cabal and stack scripts are intended to be "quick and dirty" and don't support things like that |
| 23:11:29 | <geekosaur> | unless maybe you have distinct versions for local dependencies |
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| 23:37:35 | <janus> | all right |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-06-19.