Logs on 2021-07-02 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:03:56 | <c_wraith> | that sounds like a strictness issue |
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| 00:05:45 | <dsal> | Yeah, MT in Haskell does mean you need to actually force computation in the threads you spawn if you want them to be useful. :) |
| 00:05:56 | <ephemient> | rdrand would be pretty fast but it is broken on a number of configurations |
| 00:11:53 | <ephemient> | ... or not, looking at intel docs it only provides random values at 100Hz and is shared between cores |
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| 00:17:37 | <c_wraith> | rdrand is intended to feed entropy pools like should be behind /dev/urandom |
| 00:18:11 | <c_wraith> | for which 100Hz is actually pretty good, if there's any entropy in the output of rdrand at all |
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| 00:51:46 | <jackdk> | Hum. I am currently generating my generators before forking (`gens <- replicateM n $ newStdGen >>= newIORef`) and then the main part of the job should be `forConcurrently jobs $ force $ ...`, where `jobs :: [(OtherStuff, IORef StdGen)]` |
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| 00:58:15 | <jackdk> | (`forConcurrently` is from `unliftio`, but it is still pegging 1/16 cores |
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| 01:06:36 | <davean> | jackdk: dumb question, but you compiled with threading, right? |
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| 01:06:46 | <c_wraith> | jackdk: yes, that's a typical example of getting laziness wrong |
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| 01:07:03 | <c_wraith> | jackdk: force doesn't do what you think it does |
| 01:07:38 | <jackdk> | davean: `ghc-options: -threaded -rtsopts -with-rtsopts=-N`; c_wraith: I see the same behaviour with/without `force` - what does it actually do? |
| 01:07:56 | <davean> | jackdk: force makes it so you can't look past force without everything inside being computed (sorta) |
| 01:08:05 | <davean> | you probably want sometihng like seq more |
| 01:08:09 | <davean> | or deepseq |
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| 01:08:12 | <gaze__> | Where does jaspervdj usually hang out/what’s his handle? I’m curious if there’s any way to use his web sockets library over SSL/TLS |
| 01:08:17 | <c_wraith> | nah, you want evaluate |
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| 01:08:21 | <c_wraith> | maybe with or without force |
| 01:08:44 | <c_wraith> | But they key is that you want something that causes a pure computation to run when an IO action is executed |
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| 01:08:49 | <c_wraith> | and that's what evaluate does |
| 01:08:57 | <davean> | evaluate is limited to IO |
| 01:09:09 | <davean> | unlike seq for example |
| 01:09:40 | <c_wraith> | So when calling forConcurrently, evaluate is the right choice |
| 01:10:15 | <c_wraith> | It's not polymorphic in that parameter. It's always IO |
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| 01:11:46 | <davean> | c_wraith: why would you chose evaluate over seq here? |
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| 01:12:28 | <c_wraith> | because its semantics are an exact match for what's desired: when the IO computation is executed, evaluate the value |
| 01:13:31 | <c_wraith> | could you use seq? sure, the docs for evaluate say how to implement it in terms of seq. But why not use the function that already exists and does exactly what you want, instead of reimplementing it? |
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| 01:14:27 | <jackdk> | force x = deepseq x x; force's haddock specifically calls out `evaluate $ force $ ...` as a way to force deep evaluation relative to other IO |
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| 01:15:47 | <jackdk> | so I have `jobs :: [(RVar x, IORef StdGen)]` and I try `forConcurrently jobs $ evaluate . force <=< uncurry runRVar`, but I still seem to only peg one core. Is there something else obvious that I'm likely missing? |
| 01:16:17 | <c_wraith> | well, running with +RTS -N |
| 01:16:50 | <jackdk> | Doesn't `-with-rtsopts=-N` give that? |
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| 01:17:19 | <jackdk> | Currently running with `+RTS -H10G -N -p`, anyway |
| 01:18:11 | <c_wraith> | the other potential way for it to all end up on one core is if there's a data dependency on the inputs that makes evaluating them linear |
| 01:18:33 | <Cajun> | does running with `+RTS -s` mention using -N[your number of cores]? |
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| 01:19:03 | <Cajun> | it should, cant see any reason why it wouldnt |
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| 01:20:33 | <c_wraith> | like... if runRVar is fast but generating each RVar depends on the previous one, you can end up in a situation where waiting for the input to become available blocks all the threads |
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| 01:21:49 | <c_wraith> | Or heck. If runRVar is fast and there's no data dependency, you might just be blocking in the repeated calls to newStdGen |
| 01:21:55 | <c_wraith> | I don't know if it's actually fast |
| 01:22:29 | <c_wraith> | (ie, make sure you're actually measuring the concurrent portion of the program) |
| 01:22:44 | <jackdk> | c_wraith: I see what you're saying. I've flinched away from that hypothesis because `let jobs = zip (repeat (calculateFoo :: RVar x)) gens` and because it requires more thinking |
| 01:23:38 | <c_wraith> | huh. you're repeating the same RVar? |
| 01:23:49 | <c_wraith> | well that's *definitely* a data dependency between them :) |
| 01:24:10 | <jackdk> | yes, I suppose it is >_< |
| 01:24:36 | <c_wraith> | If evaluating calculateFoo takes a significant chunk of time, every thread but one will be blocked waiting for the lazy evaluation to finish |
| 01:25:04 | <jackdk> | yeah, I see what you're saying. |
| 01:25:32 | <jackdk> | and then when that's finally done, going through and rolling the dice on the actual random samples is reasonably quick but I've been hammering the wrong thing |
| 01:26:02 | <c_wraith> | that's very easy to have happen with complex conditional probability expressions |
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| 01:34:41 | <koz> | What's the standard way of generating a fresh name in the Q monad? |
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| 01:36:13 | <geekosaur> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/libraries/template-haskell-2.17.0.0/Language-Haskell-TH.html#v:newName ? |
| 01:36:33 | <koz> | geekosaur: Thanks! |
| 01:36:44 | <koz> | Why does it take a String then? |
| 01:37:07 | <c_wraith> | it uses it as the base for the name. |
| 01:37:15 | <c_wraith> | it might add numbers to it to prevent collisions |
| 01:37:27 | <c_wraith> | like the a, a1, a2 stuff inference does sometimes |
| 01:39:35 | <geekosaur> | there are some examples right after it showing what it does and how it differs from mkName |
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| 04:30:29 | <Axman6> | What options exist for creating new haskell projects? I've used stack new in the past but am looking for something more cabal friendly. I've used summoner too, and it works well but isn't compatible with ghc-8.10 (I could probably do --allow-newer though). Any other options? cabal init doesn't seem to cut it, unless things have changed in the last while |
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| 04:34:23 | <Axman6> | What options exist for creating new haskell projects? I've used stack new in the past but am looking for something more cabal friendly. I've used summoner too, and it works well but isn't compatible with ghc-8.10 (I could probably do --allow-newer though). Any other options? cabal init doesn't seem to cut it, unless things have changed in the last while |
| 04:34:28 | <Axman6> | uh |
| 04:34:33 | <Axman6> | (Looks like cabal new-install summoner-tui --allow-newer might work, but still interested to know if there are up to date tools) |
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| 04:35:40 | <sclv> | what do you want out of cabal init that it doesn't give? a full scaffolding?? |
| 04:35:55 | <slack1256> | Maybe you mean the template projects that stack ships with? |
| 04:36:01 | <sclv> | personally i've never wanted much more |
| 04:36:27 | <sclv> | also summoner is 8.10 compat: https://matrix.hackage.haskell.org/#/package/summoner |
| 04:36:42 | <sclv> | as is tui? https://matrix.hackage.haskell.org/#/package/summoner-tui |
| 04:36:49 | <Axman6> | yeah just a scaffold. oh looks like I've got 9.0.1 active |
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| 04:37:56 | <sclv> | honestly i'm particular enough about my projects i've always been fine with just initing a basic cabal file |
| 04:38:42 | <sclv> | but then i've never paid much attention to setting up like CI integrations, which is where this stuff seems handiest, or maybe with doctests or the like... my packages are very straightforward by comparison |
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| 04:48:58 | <Axman6> | urgh, ok, I can't install summoner-tui using ghc 8.10, it can't find a build plan without --allow-newer, and then it imports things which are no longer exported |
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| 05:04:53 | <jr23> | hi all |
| 05:05:07 | <jr23> | I am trying to build eta lang from source |
| 05:05:26 | <jr23> | couple of time build failed with messages like this |
| 05:05:31 | <jr23> | ListLike > Registering ListLike-4.2.1... |
| 05:05:32 | <jr23> | HttpExceptionRequest Request { |
| 05:05:32 | <jr23> | host = "casa.fpcomplete.com" |
| 05:05:33 | <jr23> | port = 443 |
| 05:05:33 | <jr23> | secure = True |
| 05:05:34 | <jr23> | requestHeaders = [] |
| 05:05:34 | <jr23> | path = "/v1/pull" |
| 05:05:35 | <jr23> | queryString = "" |
| 05:05:35 | <jr23> | method = "POST" |
| 05:05:36 | <jr23> | proxy = Nothing |
| 05:05:36 | <jr23> | rawBody = False |
| 05:05:37 | <jr23> | redirectCount = 10 |
| 05:05:37 | <jr23> | responseTimeout = ResponseTimeoutDefault |
| 05:05:38 | <jr23> | requestVersion = HTTP/1.1 |
| 05:05:38 | <jr23> | } |
| 05:05:39 | <jr23> | ConnectionTimeout |
| 05:05:43 | <Axman6> | @where paste |
| 05:05:43 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 05:06:14 | <jr23> | any one know why this packages sending request for regist |
| 05:06:21 | <jr23> | *registration |
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| 05:06:54 | <jr23> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/WGY3qeLE |
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| 07:00:12 | <Cajun> | is there a good way to get a more precise Double? im trying to do ProjectEuler problem 26, but 1/17 is too long/its decimal representation is too long and gets chopped prematurely and my floydCycle algorithm errors out (index too large) |
| 07:01:16 | <shachaf> | I suspect you're not supposed to be solving that with floating point. |
| 07:02:20 | <Cajun> | that would make sense, but im wondering how else i could represent it, considering the 2-10 example all shows floating point; any suggestions? |
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| 07:03:36 | <shachaf> | No, none of the examples show floating point. |
| 07:04:14 | <Cajun> | well i mean it shows 1/7 as 0.(142857), which is a decimal representation, so i went ahead and used floating point |
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| 07:05:00 | <shachaf> | But floating point of any precision won't tell you what the cycles are. |
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| 07:06:10 | <Cajun> | wdym? the way im going about it is converting to a string and chopping off the 0. and all following 0s. thats likely the issue, but how else can i get the decimal portion of fractional division? |
| 07:07:13 | <shachaf> | The decimal portion is infinite, so you certainly won't get it like that. |
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| 07:11:51 | <Ferdirand> | Cajun: try to write some equation that captures the idea of the repeating decimal fraction |
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| 07:19:05 | <sshine> | Cajun, Rational? |
| 07:19:37 | <Cajun> | ive found a different approach and am reading up on it, but i did look at that; dont think that would help considering i was using string representation |
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| 07:21:06 | <sshine> | Cajun, ah, didn't look into the actual problem. I also don't think you'd actually want floats here. |
| 07:22:12 | <sshine> | Cajun, I think whether or not the decimal representation of a ratio is finite or not has to do with divisibility of the number base... |
| 07:22:23 | <sshine> | at least for natural number bases. |
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| 07:41:35 | <Cajun> | shachaf Ferdirand: thanks, that worked! |
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| 07:43:22 | <shachaf> | Most of the puzzles on that website are more mathsy than programmingy, I think. |
| 07:43:35 | <shachaf> | So you should be prepared to math it up. |
| 07:43:53 | <Cajun> | yup, but expressing math in programming is still a great practice. so far brute force has been possible, but thats absolutely not the case moving forward |
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| 07:45:20 | <Cajun> | i guess ill start looking in a more mathsy lens moving forward, its been fun so far |
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| 07:49:38 | × | hnOsmium0001 quits (uid453710@id-453710.stonehaven.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
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| 07:50:59 | × | bitonic quits (~bitonic@2001:470:69fc:105::1812) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 07:51:01 | × | Orbstheorem quits (~orbstheor@2001:470:69fc:105::a56) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 07:51:53 | × | Deewiant quits (~deewiant@2001:470:69fc:105::2fd3) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 07:53:04 | × | unrooted quits (~unrooted@2001:470:69fc:105::a4a) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 07:53:05 | × | unclechu quits (~unclechu@2001:470:69fc:105::354) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
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| 07:54:02 | → | mpt joins (~tom@p57a56d37.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 07:58:41 | × | kosmikus[m] quits (~andresloe@2001:470:69fc:105::95d) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 07:58:42 | × | Soft quits (~soft-matr@2001:470:69fc:105::c75) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 07:58:46 | × | bb010g quits (~bb010g@2001:470:69fc:105::9a5) (Write error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 07:58:47 | × | Drezil quits (~drezilkif@2001:470:69fc:105::7f8) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 07:58:47 | × | Ollie[m] quits (~ollieocha@2001:470:69fc:105::41a5) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 07:58:47 | × | yin[m] quits (~zwromatri@2001:470:69fc:105::1d4) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 07:58:55 | × | reza[m] quits (~rezaphone@2001:470:69fc:105::3eda) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 07:58:55 | × | jakefromstatefar quits (~jakefroms@2001:470:69fc:105::15ef) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 07:58:55 | × | Morrow[m] quits (~morrowmma@2001:470:69fc:105::1d0) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 07:58:55 | × | dualinverter[m] quits (~dualinver@2001:470:69fc:105::16a7) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 07:58:55 | × | ixlun quits (~ixlun@2001:470:69fc:105::41b3) (Write error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 07:58:55 | × | oak- quits (~oakuniver@2001:470:69fc:105::fcd) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 07:58:55 | × | justosophy[m] quits (~justosoph@2001:470:69fc:105::572f) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 07:58:55 | × | octeep[m]1 quits (~octeepmoc@2001:470:69fc:105::695e) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 07:58:57 | × | autrim64[m] quits (~autrim64m@2001:470:69fc:105::16a1) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 07:59:28 | × | amesgen[m] quits (~amesgenm]@2001:470:69fc:105::82b) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 07:59:28 | × | ecameron[m] quits (~ecameronm@2001:470:69fc:105::35df) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 07:59:28 | × | aveltras[m] quits (~aveltrasm@2001:470:69fc:105::3ef9) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 08:00:09 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) |
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| 08:06:31 | × | eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:5bf:4bd7:7b8b:fdcf) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 08:06:39 | → | hendursa1 joins (~weechat@user/hendursaga) |
| 08:06:56 | × | fabfianda quits (~fabfianda@37.183.255.57) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 08:07:00 | → | eggplantade joins (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:5bf:4bd7:7b8b:fdcf) |
| 08:07:13 | → | fabfianda joins (~fabfianda@mob-5-90-251-42.net.vodafone.it) |
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| 08:09:14 | × | chele quits (~chele@user/chele) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 08:11:20 | × | ubert quits (~Thunderbi@p2e5a50e5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 08:11:29 | → | ac joins (~aloiscoch@2001:470:69fc:105::65) |
| 08:11:29 | → | sm[m] joins (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) |
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| 08:11:29 | → | Las[m] joins (~lasmatrix@2001:470:69fc:105::74e) |
| 08:11:29 | → | Artem[m] joins (~artemtype@2001:470:69fc:105::75b) |
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| 08:11:29 | → | zfnmxt joins (~zfnmxtzfn@2001:470:69fc:105::2b32) |
| 08:11:29 | → | MatrixTravelerbo joins (~voyagert2@2001:470:69fc:105::22) |
| 08:11:30 | → | ServerStatsDisco joins (~serversta@2001:470:69fc:105::1a) |
| 08:11:30 | → | kadoban joins (~kadoban@user/kadoban) |
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| 08:11:30 | → | jophish joins (~jophish@2001:470:69fc:105::670) |
| 08:11:30 | → | siraben joins (~siraben@user/siraben) |
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| 08:11:30 | → | unclechu joins (~unclechu@2001:470:69fc:105::354) |
| 08:11:30 | → | unrooted joins (~unrooted@2001:470:69fc:105::a4a) |
| 08:11:30 | → | bryan[m] joins (~bchreekat@2001:470:69fc:105::16b5) |
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| 08:11:30 | → | Aleci[m] joins (~alecilibr@2001:470:69fc:105::32e7) |
| 08:11:30 | → | maralorn joins (~maralorn@2001:470:69fc:105::251) |
| 08:11:30 | → | jakefromstatefar joins (~jakefroms@2001:470:69fc:105::15ef) |
| 08:11:30 | → | lwe[m] joins (~dendrumat@2001:470:69fc:105::2f9b) |
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| 08:11:30 | → | reza[m] joins (~rezaphone@2001:470:69fc:105::3eda) |
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| 08:11:30 | → | marinelli[m] joins (~marinelli@2001:470:69fc:105::2d8) |
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| 08:11:30 | → | boxscape joins (~boxscape@user/boxscape) |
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| 08:11:30 | → | ormaaj joins (~ormaaj@user/ormaaj) |
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| 08:11:30 | → | Orbstheorem joins (~orbstheor@2001:470:69fc:105::a56) |
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| 08:11:41 | → | kosmikus[m] joins (~andresloe@2001:470:69fc:105::95d) |
| 08:11:41 | → | Soft joins (~soft-matr@2001:470:69fc:105::c75) |
| 08:11:41 | → | Morrow[m] joins (~morrowmma@2001:470:69fc:105::1d0) |
| 08:11:41 | → | Drezil joins (~drezilkif@2001:470:69fc:105::7f8) |
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| 08:11:42 | → | justosophy[m] joins (~justosoph@2001:470:69fc:105::572f) |
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| 08:11:42 | → | aveltras[m] joins (~aveltrasm@2001:470:69fc:105::3ef9) |
| 08:11:42 | → | ecameron[m] joins (~ecameronm@2001:470:69fc:105::35df) |
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| 08:11:43 | → | yin[m] joins (~zwromatri@2001:470:69fc:105::1d4) |
| 08:11:43 | → | RohitGoswami[m] joins (~rgoswamim@2001:470:69fc:105::16cc) |
| 08:11:43 | → | ixlun joins (~ixlun@2001:470:69fc:105::41b3) |
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| 08:11:45 | → | Sylveon joins (~sylveonma@2001:470:69fc:105::2d95) |
| 08:11:50 | × | eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:5bf:4bd7:7b8b:fdcf) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 08:11:52 | × | alphabeta quits (~kilolympu@cpc92710-cmbg20-2-0-cust265.5-4.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: Quitting IRC :() |
| 08:12:08 | Sylveon | is now known as Guest6895 |
| 08:12:11 | → | kilolympus joins (~kilolympu@cpc92710-cmbg20-2-0-cust265.5-4.cable.virginm.net) |
| 08:13:32 | → | chele joins (~chele@user/chele) |
| 08:13:39 | → | hegstal joins (~hegstal@2a02:c7f:7604:8a00:f7c8:886a:a9a5:ff17) |
| 08:16:36 | → | thornAvery joins (~thorn@121.220.33.124) |
| 08:17:26 | × | geekosaur quits (~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 08:17:52 | → | geekosaur joins (~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) |
| 08:18:16 | → | Lord_of_Life_ joins (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) |
| 08:19:03 | × | Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 08:19:31 | Lord_of_Life_ | is now known as Lord_of_Life |
| 08:19:42 | → | ph88^ joins (~ph88@2a02:8109:9e00:7e5c:60eb:9cdc:e9d8:37e4) |
| 08:19:56 | × | MatrixTravelerbo quits (~voyagert2@2001:470:69fc:105::22) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:20:05 | × | siraben quits (~siraben@user/siraben) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:20:06 | × | ac quits (~aloiscoch@2001:470:69fc:105::65) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:20:16 | × | ServerStatsDisco quits (~serversta@2001:470:69fc:105::1a) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:20:17 | × | Aleci[m] quits (~alecilibr@2001:470:69fc:105::32e7) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:20:22 | × | peddie quits (~peddie@2001:470:69fc:105::25d) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:20:23 | × | kadoban quits (~kadoban@user/kadoban) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:20:23 | × | carmysilna quits (~brightly-@2001:470:69fc:105::2190) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:20:25 | × | fgaz quits (~fgaz@2001:470:69fc:105::842) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:20:33 | × | sm[m] quits (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:20:47 | × | psydroid quits (~psydroid@user/psydroid) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:20:57 | × | cdsmith quits (~cdsmithma@2001:470:69fc:105::284) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:21:11 | × | hsiktas[m] quits (~hsiktasma@2001:470:69fc:105::30d4) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:21:40 | × | lwe[m] quits (~dendrumat@2001:470:69fc:105::2f9b) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:21:49 | × | ericson2314 quits (~ericson23@2001:470:69fc:105::70c) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:21:50 | × | the-coot[m] quits (~the-cootm@2001:470:69fc:105::95f) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:21:58 | × | jophish quits (~jophish@2001:470:69fc:105::670) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:21:58 | × | inkbottle[m] quits (~inkbottle@2001:470:69fc:105::2ff5) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:22:18 | × | ph88 quits (~ph88@2a02:8109:9e00:7e5c:60eb:9cdc:e9d8:37e4) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 08:22:20 | × | ormaaj quits (~ormaaj@user/ormaaj) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:22:41 | × | boxscape quits (~boxscape@user/boxscape) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:22:45 | × | Las[m] quits (~lasmatrix@2001:470:69fc:105::74e) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:23:11 | × | maralorn quits (~maralorn@2001:470:69fc:105::251) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:23:16 | × | vaibhavsagar[m] quits (~vaibhavsa@2001:470:69fc:105::ffe) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:23:33 | × | zfnmxt quits (~zfnmxtzfn@2001:470:69fc:105::2b32) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:23:33 | × | thedward[m] quits (~thedwardm@2001:470:69fc:105::f79) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:23:34 | × | bryan[m] quits (~bchreekat@2001:470:69fc:105::16b5) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:24:39 | × | tromp quits (~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 08:25:05 | × | marinelli[m] quits (~marinelli@2001:470:69fc:105::2d8) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:25:06 | × | hjulle[m] quits (~hjullemat@2001:470:69fc:105::1dd) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:25:13 | × | fabfianda[m] quits (~fabfianda@2001:470:69fc:105::6db) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:25:13 | × | Artem[m] quits (~artemtype@2001:470:69fc:105::75b) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:25:13 | × | cdepillabout[m] quits (~cdepillab@2001:470:69fc:105::3d3) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:25:13 | × | jaror[m] quits (~jaror@2001:470:69fc:105::265) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:25:15 | × | bitonic quits (~bitonic@2001:470:69fc:105::1812) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:25:15 | × | ru0mad[m] quits (~ru0madmat@2001:470:69fc:105::9b2) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:25:24 | × | Orbstheorem quits (~orbstheor@2001:470:69fc:105::a56) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:25:59 | × | Deewiant quits (~deewiant@2001:470:69fc:105::2fd3) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:26:37 | → | tromp joins (~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) |
| 08:28:08 | × | unrooted quits (~unrooted@2001:470:69fc:105::a4a) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:28:09 | × | unclechu quits (~unclechu@2001:470:69fc:105::354) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:28:10 | × | gxt quits (~gxt@2001:470:69fc:105::3513) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:28:56 | × | sridonhiatus[m] quits (~sridmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::1c2) (Quit: Client limit exceeded: 20000) |
| 08:29:14 | → | arjun joins (~user@user/arjun) |
| 08:30:18 | × | dunkeln quits (~dunkeln@188.70.10.165) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 08:32:00 | × | RohitGoswami[m] quits (~rgoswamim@2001:470:69fc:105::16cc) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 08:32:01 | × | adziahel[m] quits (~adziahelm@2001:470:69fc:105::b4d) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 08:32:01 | × | yin[m] quits (~zwromatri@2001:470:69fc:105::1d4) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 08:32:01 | × | dualinverter[m] quits (~dualinver@2001:470:69fc:105::16a7) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 08:32:01 | × | autrim64[m] quits (~autrim64m@2001:470:69fc:105::16a1) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 08:32:02 | × | bb010g quits (~bb010g@2001:470:69fc:105::9a5) (Write error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 08:32:02 | × | Ollie[m] quits (~ollieocha@2001:470:69fc:105::41a5) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 08:32:02 | × | wallymathieu[m] quits (~wallymath@2001:470:69fc:105::16ae) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 08:32:03 | × | jakefromstatefar quits (~jakefroms@2001:470:69fc:105::15ef) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 08:32:03 | × | oak- quits (~oakuniver@2001:470:69fc:105::fcd) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 08:46:38 | <juhp> | If I change a function of String to one of IsString s => s, does that break PVP or not? |
| 08:47:03 | <Rembane> | What's PVP in this context? |
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| 08:47:23 | <juhp> | Sorry I mean that count as breaking API? |
| 08:47:28 | <juhp> | does *, ugh |
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| 08:48:27 | <Rembane> | It makes the function take arguments of more types, so I say it doesn't break API, but you could have a differing opinion and still be correct. :) |
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| 08:48:48 | <juhp> | Right, my thinking too |
| 08:49:07 | <juhp> | So it might not require a major version bump perhaps |
| 08:49:18 | <Taneb> | juhp: it can break downstream code in some circumstances |
| 08:49:32 | <juhp> | Aha |
| 08:49:49 | <juhp> | That was what I was wondering or worrying about |
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| 08:50:18 | <Rembane> | How can it break downstream code? |
| 08:51:02 | <Taneb> | I think that without ExtendedDefaultRules it'd break something like "foldMap (Sum . fromEnum) foo" |
| 08:51:35 | <Taneb> | It'd need to find (Foldable f, Enum c, IsString (f c)) |
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| 08:51:51 | <Rembane> | Got it, I didn't expect that. |
| 08:51:54 | <Taneb> | I don't think it'd always manage to default that to String |
| 08:52:17 | <Taneb> | (It does in GHCi, I think due to ExtendedDefaultRules or whatever it's called) |
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| 08:53:18 | <juhp> | In my immediate case the context is optparse-applicative string option parsing |
| 08:54:14 | <Taneb> | strOption :: IsString s => Mod OptionFields s -> Parser s |
| 08:54:19 | <juhp> | But yeah there more chance of ambiguity with a type class of course |
| 08:54:24 | <juhp> | Right |
| 08:54:26 | <Taneb> | That could cause problems, depending on how you use the Parser later on |
| 08:54:32 | <juhp> | Okay |
| 08:54:54 | <Rembane> | You could make your own strOption' that has a stricter type |
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| 08:55:08 | <juhp> | Well sounds like major version bump might be safer |
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| 08:55:38 | <juhp> | Rembane: well the thing is I am actually going the other way |
| 08:55:56 | <juhp> | That is what I currently have |
| 08:56:06 | <Rembane> | juhp: Got it. |
| 08:56:45 | <juhp> | Thanks for the help :-) |
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| 08:58:32 | <Rembane> | np! Good luck! :) |
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| 12:29:47 | <dminuoso> | I can also see this breaking in subtle cases of MMR |
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| 12:31:05 | <dminuoso> | Though no, if I follow this thought it goes into the same ballpark that Taneb does. |
| 12:32:10 | <Taneb> | MMR? |
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| 12:34:33 | <dminuoso> | % f = (g "foo", g (Identity "bar")) where g = fromString |
| 12:34:34 | <yahb> | dminuoso: ; <interactive>:124:18: error:; * Couldn't match type: Identity String; with: [Char]; Expected: String; Actual: Identity String; * In the first argument of `g', namely `(Identity "bar")'; In the expression: g (Identity "bar"); In the expression: (g "foo", g (Identity "bar")) |
| 12:34:57 | <dminuoso> | Im still trying to construct a backwards breaking chance here |
| 12:35:24 | <dminuoso> | Think Im going into a wrong direction |
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| 13:26:31 | <ph88_> | how can i run stack in a windows based container image so i can build windows binaries ? I saw microsoft released "nano server" very compact docker image |
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| 13:43:27 | <sshine> | ph88_, sounds like you could extend that docker image in a Dockerfile using 'FROM windows/nanoserver'? https://hub.docker.com/_/microsoft-windows-nanoserver |
| 13:44:22 | <sshine> | ph88_, I don't know how you'd install things in nanoserver; presumably you might COPY in a stack executable. |
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| 13:49:27 | <ph88_> | sshine, thanks, ye could be as simple as that .. Just like to know if someone has already done it before and has a template/Dockerfile example |
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| 13:58:49 | <gentauro> | sshine: do you know if you need a licenses for the win-nanoserver? |
| 13:59:07 | <gentauro> | btw, det er begyndt at regne igen igen :( |
| 14:02:25 | <shapr> | ÄR DU INTE FÖRVÅNAD? |
| 14:04:50 | <shapr> | it's been raining for two days here |
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| 14:12:16 | <shapr> | hej hopp gentauro |
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| 14:13:38 | <slack1256> | exit |
| 14:13:50 | <shapr> | slack1256: bye! |
| 14:13:55 | <shapr> | we'll miss you! |
| 14:13:56 | <slack1256> | sorry lol |
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| 14:41:52 | <boxscape> | If I have a data type with two constructors that share some record fields, is ghc smart enough to not check which constructor it is when I access one of those fields? |
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| 14:44:24 | <zyklotomic> | question of "what GHC extension am I looking for" |
| 14:44:44 | <zyklotomic> | what if I want to apply a typeclas constraint to a data variable |
| 14:45:11 | <zyklotomic> | like data Thing (Show a => a) = _ |
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| 14:45:31 | <zyklotomic> | so we can only have Thing a's where a is of Show |
| 14:46:58 | <geekosaur> | doesn't that need GADTs? (there's DataTypeContexts but that applies only when creating values and doesn't bring the constraint into scope later) |
| 14:48:07 | <zyklotomic> | i think so, but that's the hard thing with extensions for me |
| 14:48:16 | <zyklotomic> | the idea is usually abstract and hard to just look for online |
| 14:48:51 | <SoF> | hi! I wanted to ask if Haskell can memoize function calls? so if I call <pure expensive function> a bunch of times with the same argument, under which circumstances does it memoize? |
| 14:49:07 | <SoF> | as an example, in list comprehensions with the expensive function call as the 2nd generator it doesn't seem to memoize |
| 14:49:40 | <SoF> | "genQueens k = [q:qs | qs <- genQueens (k-1), q <- [1..n] , test q qs]" - if I put genQueens as the rightmost generator instead, it takes a lot longer to compute |
| 14:50:47 | <zyklotomic> | like there are a few ways |
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| 14:51:10 | <zyklotomic> | and one is to counter-intuitively *not* memoize, and rewrite to take advantage of lazy evaluation |
| 14:51:20 | <zyklotomic> | kinda a weird answer i know |
| 14:51:51 | <zyklotomic> | but since they are pure, you could also use the hack that is unsafePerformIO to store results I think, but i feel bad for suggesting that |
| 14:51:52 | <SoF> | hmm |
| 14:51:55 | <NinjaTrappeur> | https://wiki.haskell.org/Memoization |
| 14:52:28 | <SoF> | NinjaTrappeur: sorry I'm talking about what GHC does, not what I can do myself |
| 14:52:51 | <NinjaTrappeur> | ah ok. Not that I'm aware of. |
| 14:53:04 | <zyklotomic> | or just manually memoize yourself with a Map like you would in other languages i guess |
| 14:53:13 | <zyklotomic> | oh i think i might have misunderstood too then |
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| 14:55:22 | <SoF> | it seems to me in the loop body of "q <- [1..n]" the genQueens call should be able to be memoized by GHC across loop iterations, but I want to find out why it doesn't do that |
| 14:55:45 | <SoF> | that would be in this version (slow): "genQueens k = [q:qs | q <- [1..n], qs <- genQueens (k-1) , test q qs]" |
| 14:56:30 | <boxscape> | looking at the output of -ddump-stg-final it looks like the answer is no :/ |
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| 14:57:08 | <boxscape> | to be fair I don't actually know if that means it's slower |
| 14:57:20 | <gentauro> | shapr: wrong chat xD |
| 14:57:24 | <boxscape> | since it has a case expression even when there's just a single constructor |
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| 14:58:09 | <SoF> | does GHC not do memoization in general (only in the case of beta reductions) or is this just an edge case? |
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| 14:59:59 | <c_wraith> | GHC does not do memoization in general |
| 15:00:09 | <c_wraith> | Sometimes it does common subexpression elimination |
| 15:00:32 | <c_wraith> | but in general, if you want to not recompute something, you should hold on to it |
| 15:00:59 | <c_wraith> | Even common subexpression elimination can be a huge performance loss, if done wrong |
| 15:01:28 | <SoF> | thanks |
| 15:01:59 | <SoF> | do you have any pointers why CSE can be a huge performance loss, c_wraith? |
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| 15:02:42 | <SoF> | introduction of additional variables? |
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| 15:02:54 | <c_wraith> | the typical example is something like print [1..10000000000] >> print [1..10000000000] |
| 15:03:37 | <c_wraith> | if it shares [1..10000000000] between the two, it's a massive performance loss |
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| 15:04:30 | <c_wraith> | because sharing it means keeping the whole list in memory. not sharing it means it keeps a small thunk in memory and garbage collects old entries quickly |
| 15:04:57 | <boxscape> | -ddump-cmm suggests it is slower: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/LGiv6gWZ the two constructor version has an extra if statement |
| 15:05:21 | <boxscape> | though I guess I should just benchmark it :) |
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| 15:09:02 | <SoF> | c_wraith: I see, makes sense |
| 15:09:49 | <c_wraith> | SoF: there is some CSE logic, but GHC tries to apply it only to "small" values. |
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| 15:14:27 | <dolio> | I think it's more limited than that, even. |
| 15:14:52 | <dolio> | I'm not even sure what a small value would be. |
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| 15:19:31 | <boxscape> | I'm actually a little confused why the blocks cBd and cBc are different (R1+6 vs R1+7) and not exactly the same |
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| 15:21:08 | <Hecate> | .2 |
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| 15:22:44 | <boxscape> | oh god I'm sorry |
| 15:22:51 | <boxscape> | matrix hasn't been showing me any responses |
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| 15:22:56 | <boxscape> | reading backlog through logs now |
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| 15:24:33 | <boxscape_> | okay looking at it I suppose none of the messages were for me anyway :) |
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| 16:14:18 | <ph88_> | does anyone know if i can use environment variables in hakyll templates ? |
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| 17:01:12 | <lionkking> | War between freenode and libera is getting worse each day, save yourself join irc freenode chat for your freedom. |
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| 17:19:35 | <wwalker> | just started Graham Hutton's book "Programming in Haskell" first page of Hugs shows entering : 2<an upward pointing arrow> 3 anyone know how to type an upward pointing arrow in linux? |
| 17:20:14 | <boxscape_> | do you mean this ^ or a different kind of arrow? |
| 17:20:43 | <wwalker> | It shows a full arrow, but I bet I can use a carat. DOH. Thank you boxscape_ |
| 17:21:04 | <boxscape_> | I've never seen anyone type a proper arrow in haskell FWIW, but I haven't read the book |
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| 17:22:22 | <wwalker> | got the book last night. sitting in a doctors office. great place to study, *quite quiet* |
| 17:22:44 | <wwalker> | the carat worked, of course, that was stupid of me. |
| 17:22:51 | <boxscape_> | good :) |
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| 17:25:01 | <c_wraith> | that sounds like unicodization gone wrong. (I think it's always wrong, but that sounds especially wrong) |
| 17:26:19 | <wwalker> | c_wraith: you want to join my "Church of the US ACII"?? |
| 17:26:48 | <wwalker> | probably a mathmetician writing a book using laTex? |
| 17:27:40 | <monochrom> | LaTeX itself doesn't convert ^ to ↑. |
| 17:27:53 | <tam> | wwalker: i saw in the book's reviews that the book uses logic symbols where haskells use plainer versions |
| 17:28:13 | <wwalker> | Thanks tam! |
| 17:28:14 | <monochrom> | A delusional LaTeX user, sure, but the cause is delusional, not LaTeX. |
| 17:28:23 | <wwalker> | :-) |
| 17:28:33 | <tam> | " A third drawback, all the examples are expressed in symbolic logic; thus they'll have to be translated into ASCII if you wish to replicate them." |
| 17:29:00 | <monochrom> | I guess this is also the time to raise the following point. |
| 17:29:08 | <boxscape_> | might depend on the revision, too - in the google books preview it looks like ascii |
| 17:29:23 | <monochrom> | That doesn't happen to the 2nd edition. |
| 17:29:42 | <wwalker> | so, in Hugs, how do I define a function? all the examples look like I would just type in : double(x) = x * x But Hugs erros on that with Syntax error unexpected '=' |
| 17:30:06 | <monochrom> | In fact in the 2nd edition, it is s/hugs/ghci/, and the first session is 2+3*4 |
| 17:30:39 | <monochrom> | with hugs you are very well advised to put that in a file and use :load |
| 17:30:46 | <wwalker> | rats. I didn't see a second edition for sale (admittedly I didn't know to look) |
| 17:31:13 | <wwalker> | Thx monochrom , will do. |
| 17:31:32 | <wwalker> | thanks all... |
| 17:31:37 | <tam> | you can also try ghci instead |
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| 17:32:54 | <tam> | and use let double = (*2) |
| 17:33:19 | <tam> | or let double x = x + x |
| 17:34:23 | <boxscape_> | (you don't actually need the "let" anymore in ghci) |
| 17:34:38 | <tam> | ah great |
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| 18:12:35 | <wwalker> | Cool, good info! Thank you all! |
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| 18:17:15 | <_73> | I would like a function `[Word8] -> Word64`. That works by appending the bytes together. I have tried using Data.ByteString.pack to to turn the [Word8] into a bytestring, and then using Data.Binary.decode to turn the bytestring into a Word64, however I am using strict bytestrings instead of lazy ones so this did not work. I could use advice on what I can do. |
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| 18:22:50 | <monochrom> | Moreover, IIRC decode for Word64 totally doesn't use the format you expect. |
| 18:22:57 | <ChaiTRex> | > foldr1 (\ b x -> shiftL x 8 .|. b) [1, 2] |
| 18:22:59 | <lambdabot> | 513 |
| 18:23:16 | <ChaiTRex> | _73: Here's little endian ^ |
| 18:24:06 | <ChaiTRex> | Hmm, probably would need foldr because of different types. |
| 18:24:42 | <_73> | ChaiTRex: oh nice. Ill see if I can use this to make a big endian version. |
| 18:24:51 | <ChaiTRex> | > let f :: [Word8] -> Word64; f xs = foldr (\ b x -> shiftL x 8 .|. b) 0 xs in f [1, 2] |
| 18:24:52 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 18:24:52 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘Word64’ with actual type ‘Word8’ |
| 18:24:52 | <lambdabot> | • In the expression: foldr (\ b x -> shiftL x 8 .|. b) 0 xs |
| 18:25:30 | <ChaiTRex> | > let f :: [Word8] -> Word64; f xs = foldr (\ b x -> shiftL x 8 .|. fromIntegral b) 0 xs in f [1, 2] |
| 18:25:32 | <lambdabot> | 513 |
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| 18:26:02 | <chisui> | Hey, is there a way to compare arbitrary types, not just Nat and Symbol? |
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| 18:28:04 | <ChaiTRex> | > > let f :: [Word8] -> Word64; f xs = foldl' (\ x b -> shiftL x 8 .|. fromIntegral b) 0 xs in f [1, 2] |
| 18:28:06 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘>’ |
| 18:28:29 | <ChaiTRex> | > let f :: [Word8] -> Word64; f xs = foldl' (\ x b -> shiftL x 8 .|. fromIntegral b) 0 xs in f [1, 2] |
| 18:28:30 | <lambdabot> | 258 |
| 18:28:38 | <DigitalKiwi> | is there a haskell library for AWS infinidash? |
| 18:28:42 | <ChaiTRex> | _73: Here it is for big endian ^ |
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| 18:29:18 | <_73> | ChaiTRex: Thank you. Im gonna have to think about how this works. This is what I need though. |
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| 18:33:23 | <DigitalKiwi> | Hecate: ^ have you one yet? |
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| 18:47:16 | <Franciman> | does haskell still make sense to adopt in 2021? |
| 18:47:50 | <maerwald> | Franciman: what? |
| 18:47:50 | <Franciman> | it has unsatisfactory with respect to the type system and the generics |
| 18:47:59 | <Franciman> | I think it is become out of fashion |
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| 18:48:07 | <Franciman> | is there any work to improve on both? |
| 18:48:08 | <maerwald> | use case? |
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| 18:49:59 | <Franciman> | maerwald: any use case in which you end up using Generics to reduce boilerplate |
| 18:50:14 | <Franciman> | I end up in a hell that reminds me of c++ template metaprogramming |
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| 18:52:59 | <zzz> | holy cow, i've been typing javascript for hours. i was reminded of how much i love haskell |
| 18:53:37 | <maerwald> | Franciman: maybe TypeScript |
| 18:53:50 | <maerwald> | it has structural typing, which is superior to generics imo |
| 18:54:03 | <maerwald> | but also a little less "correct" |
| 18:54:27 | <maerwald> | there are a few unsoudness issues in TypeScript, but you might not care about them in practice |
| 18:54:39 | <Franciman> | thanks maerwald |
| 18:54:56 | <maerwald> | I know of some haskell programmers who in fact switched to typescript... |
| 18:55:06 | <maerwald> | in their professional career |
| 18:55:18 | <Franciman> | I would like to switch to idris2 or agda |
| 18:55:30 | <Franciman> | everytime I program in haskell I remind myself of how much i love dependent types |
| 18:55:43 | <Franciman> | anche scheme-like macros |
| 18:56:47 | <tomsmeding> | Franciman: who is going to maintain the code after you've written it? you yourself or someone else? |
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| 18:57:11 | <tomsmeding> | if you yourself, then go all out; if someone else, be kind to them and still your hunger for nice types :p |
| 18:57:50 | <tomsmeding> | judicious use of strong typing can go a long way |
| 18:58:27 | <tomsmeding> | this aspect is also part of the "use case?" question |
| 18:59:11 | <Franciman> | tomsmeding: that is exactly what I ask when I read that generics code |
| 18:59:28 | <monochrom> | "it has unsatisfactory with respect to..." reminds me of what Stroustrup said about complained languages and unused languages. |
| 18:59:33 | <davean> | Franciman: when do you encounter generics? |
| 18:59:45 | <Franciman> | when I write automatic instances |
| 18:59:51 | <Franciman> | for some typeclasses |
| 18:59:55 | <Franciman> | because they are all the same |
| 19:00:07 | <Franciman> | also when I want to write code that leverages the structure of types |
| 19:00:17 | <Franciman> | so when I'd like structural typing |
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| 19:01:34 | <davean> | why wouldn't you use newtype deriving or deriving via for that? |
| 19:01:42 | <davean> | Why would you use generics? |
| 19:02:04 | <Franciman> | for example I used |
| 19:02:06 | <Franciman> | this library |
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| 19:02:24 | <Franciman> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskell-to-elm |
| 19:02:25 | <zzz> | Franciman: automatic deriving, deriving via and type families doesnt help? |
| 19:02:39 | <Franciman> | I've had to wrestle with generix |
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| 19:03:41 | <davean> | Why? |
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| 19:06:51 | <davean> | I personally don't think theres much use for generics, and almost all uses have a much better, simpler, easier solution in the modern day, they're not entirely but mostly a thing of the past IMO |
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| 19:13:50 | <veverak> | by any chance, anybody experience with IHP ? |
| 19:14:06 | <veverak> | I wonder how painfull it would be to interact with MQTT from within |
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| 19:20:23 | <DigitalKiwi> | international house pancakes |
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| 19:24:03 | <sm[m]> | you know about their chat room veverak ? |
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| 19:26:18 | <veverak> | they have irc? |
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| 19:35:02 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://gitter.im/digitallyinduced/ihp |
| 19:35:20 | <veverak> | oh damn, I hate gitter |
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| 19:39:26 | <yushyin> | you can also use matrix to join gitter chat |
| 19:40:52 | <yushyin> | https://matrix.org/blog/2020/12/07/gitter-now-speaks-matrix |
| 19:42:12 | <sm[m]> | yeah, eg click #digitallyinduced_ihp:gitter.im if you're in a matrix client |
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| 20:38:18 | <chisui> | Hey, I really love `PackageImports`. Even if there aren't any conflicts it makes files more readable and dependencies more discoverable. If a codebase only includes PackageImports you could read out all dependencies of the project from the files. My question now is, why isn't this extension used more often? Am I missing something or is it just that |
| 20:38:18 | <chisui> | less Extensions is considered cleaner? |
| 20:38:45 | <chisui> | s/less/fewer |
| 20:39:11 | <tomsmeding> | it's probably considered overly verbose, especially for imports of which the origin is quite obvious, like Data.Map or Data.Text |
| 20:39:28 | <c_wraith> | It also suggests something has gone wrong |
| 20:39:46 | <tomsmeding> | and since ghc will complain if there is ambiguity, it's usually redundant |
| 20:39:47 | <chisui> | tomsmending: Yeah, for base and co. it's pretty bad |
| 20:39:51 | <c_wraith> | like, if you need PackageImports, your dependencies collide in some way |
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| 20:40:06 | <sm[m]> | chisui: I agree, probably just the verbosity and extra effort for low perceived benefit |
| 20:40:11 | <boxscape_> | see also the "Note" on the doc page https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/package_qualified_imports.html |
| 20:40:59 | <davean> | Also it only handles name not version |
| 20:41:28 | <chisui> | davean: In conjunction with nix or stack, that shouldn't be a problem though |
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| 20:42:21 | <davean> | If that solves your problems, great. It certainly doesn't solve mine |
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| 20:57:21 | <chisui> | boxscape: The note warns of "It can lead to fragile dependencies in the common case: modules occasionally move from one package to another, rendering any package-qualified imports broken." But that is true for cabal files and co. as well. |
| 20:58:10 | <boxscape> | hm, yeah |
| 20:59:00 | <monochrom> | PackageImports was originally for GHC's own source code because it does face module name clashes. |
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| 20:59:36 | <chisui> | c_wraith: so if you see the use of this extension you expect that the code you are dealing with is fragile? |
| 20:59:44 | <monochrom> | It is not idiomatic. At least not in the foreseeable future. |
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| 21:01:25 | <monochrom> | But I am sitting on the fence for this issue. On a blog, or when you post code to ask a question in here, if you just say "import Data.Obscure.WhoWouldHaveHeardOfThis", no one knows which package you have in mind. |
| 21:01:30 | <c_wraith> | I don't expect fragility from the imports, but I do expect there are things going in that were not intended to go together. |
| 21:01:34 | <chisui> | monochrom: So using it just as for clarification is considered unidiomatic? |
| 21:01:55 | <monochrom> | Right, 99.99% of practical Haskell code doesn't use it. |
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| 21:03:03 | <chisui> | monochrom: shouldn't it have been introduced alongside a warning in that case? |
| 21:04:08 | <chisui> | monochrom: nope. using the extension is warning enough |
| 21:04:12 | <monochrom> | But perhaps someone should argue for making it idiomatic. After all, most of us are already supportive of, e.g., "import Control.Niche (jabby)" so that you know jabby comes from Control.Niche. So why not take it one step further and spell out that Control.Niche comes from acme-totally-unused. |
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| 21:07:44 | <c_wraith> | Eh. I don't really like import lists, either. I think resolving names like that belongs to the realm of tooling, not the programmer. (I usually respond to collisions by hiding something) |
| 21:07:58 | <sm[m]> | chisui: it's not common, but there's nothing wrong with using it. I use it in scripts I'm sharing when there might be clashes and/or I want to provide extra reproducibility/hints to users |
| 21:08:32 | <monochrom> | Oh, certainly what you do in production code can also be very different from what you do in blog code. |
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| 21:09:20 | <maerwald> | There are some packages that "supercharge" another and require package imports |
| 21:09:37 | <maerwald> | not sure that's good practice, but as a user that forces you into that |
| 21:09:38 | <chisui> | mnochrom: blog code would be much shorter if it was enabled by default ;) |
| 21:10:12 | <monochrom> | I thought the point of blogs was to be long, not short. |
| 21:11:03 | <monochrom> | But respond to lack of tooling by import lists. >:) |
| 21:11:41 | <monochrom> | Besides, I also count "ghc -ddump-minimal-imports" as tooling. >:) |
| 21:12:23 | <monochrom> | s/But respond/But I respond/ # marvel at how selfless I was! |
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| 21:14:51 | <monochrom> | If you know that ghci already has commands for "what is the type of this subexpression from (3,10) to (4,15)?", it should be pretty doable to have one more command for "what is the module of this name from (3,10) to (3,15)?". |
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| 21:15:31 | <monochrom> | emacs haskell-mode and dante already use the former command. |
| 21:15:48 | <chisui> | Ok, my conclusion is that I will use `PackageImports` as documentation anyways. Thanks everyone, this community is the best! |
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| 21:42:18 | × | jakesyl quits (sid56879@id-56879.stonehaven.irccloud.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 21:43:52 | <Hecate> | DigitalKiwi: hahaha |
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| 22:15:05 | × | Teacup quits (~teacup@user/teacup) (Client Quit) |
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| 22:22:01 | astra | is now known as amish |
| 22:22:13 | × | amish quits (sid289983@id-289983.stonehaven.irccloud.com) (Changing host) |
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| 22:23:09 | amish | is now known as astra |
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| 22:28:41 | → | N3RGY joins (~N3RGY@ool-44c7c86e.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 22:29:05 | <N3RGY> | Did stack lose FreeBSD support? The install script seems to have stopped working, and I don't see any binaries |
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| 22:33:08 | → | sheepduck joins (~sheepduck@user/sheepduck) |
| 22:34:53 | <N3RGY> | Looks like it's still available via pkg. Weird |
| 22:37:39 | × | lavaman quits (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 22:38:05 | <N3RGY> | Although stack upgrade is broken... rip |
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| 23:42:01 | hflotmnaugh | is now known as mnrmnaugh |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-07-02.