Logs on 2021-07-26 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:00:48 | <monochrom> | And many conditions apply, so it doesn't have to solve any interesting problem. |
| 00:01:36 | <janus> | arkanoid: what about TypeFamilies or RankNTypes? |
| 00:03:40 | <DigitalKiwi> | surely the answer is monads |
| 00:04:04 | <janus> | there are a lot of monad papers for sure https://wiki.haskell.org/Research_papers/Monads_and_arrows |
| 00:04:07 | <arkanoid> | RankNTypes smells like heavy lifting, but unsure |
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| 00:08:33 | <dsal> | arkanoid: You might enjoy Thinking With Types |
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| 00:09:00 | <arkanoid> | I'm reading this now: http://dev.stephendiehl.com/hask/tutorial.pdf |
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| 00:09:57 | <arkanoid> | I've left "Category theory for programmers" in standby as I needed to teach myself at least some haskell first |
| 00:10:12 | <janus> | it's probably an unfair question because a phd candidate would maybe have had an easier time getting stuff merged in 1994.. while many newer theses will have a prototype that doesn't get merged? |
| 00:10:17 | <dsal> | Heh. The title of that vs. the size seems like quite a contradiction. |
| 00:12:08 | × | finsternis quits (~X@23.226.237.192) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 00:12:23 | <janus> | is there a list of Thesises on haskell anywhere? can't find it on the wiki. but there is one: "Execution profiling for non-strict functional languages" by P Sansom, University of Glasgow, 1994 |
| 00:12:26 | → | curiousgay joins (~curiousga@77-120-186-48.kha.volia.net) |
| 00:13:22 | <arkanoid> | I've found the introductory paper about Monads for functional programming by Prof. Moggi |
| 00:13:34 | <janus> | it introduces "cost centres" so sounds like it is the system that is in use now |
| 00:14:00 | <janus> | arkanoid: but was he a phd student when he did it? ;) |
| 00:15:05 | <janus> | Eisenberg also wrote a thesis on Dependent Haskell, but given that it isn't available yet, i guess it doesn't count? :P |
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| 00:15:46 | <janus> | the Clash HDL language was documented in a master's thesis, so also disqualified |
| 00:16:15 | <dsal> | "What I Wish I Knew When Learning Haskell" includes a section on polysemy, proxies, liquid haskell, … It should just be named "Everything I've figured out so far." |
| 00:17:19 | <janus> | gotta have them clicks ;) |
| 00:17:33 | <dsal> | Fused Effects, but no lens? |
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| 00:18:06 | <janus> | arkanoid: if you search for "thesis" here you'll find a couple: https://wiki.haskell.org/Research_papers/Domain_specific_languages |
| 00:19:01 | <arkanoid> | janus: Prof Moggis got his phd in 1988, the paper is from 1991. Can't say anything about his phd as the italian academic system introduced obrigatory publishing of phd only in 2010 |
| 00:19:56 | <janus> | oh well, i'll stop searching. but it is nice to know that Clash was developed in a master's thesis. gotta try it one day, i really liked Bluespec... |
| 00:20:14 | <dsal> | there's that talk about the type safe regex stuff that was really cool and went through some of the process. |
| 00:20:35 | <arkanoid> | what's Clash? |
| 00:20:47 | <janus> | it's a DSL for describing hardware, but embedded in haskell |
| 00:21:07 | <janus> | so kinda like VHDL or Verilog, but with better typing |
| 00:21:50 | <arkanoid> | whoa1 |
| 00:22:11 | <janus> | pretty cool, yeah |
| 00:22:32 | <arkanoid> | https://github.com/gergoerdi/clash-spaceinvaders :D |
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| 00:27:23 | <arkanoid> | dsal: thanks for the title, smells like domain driven design? |
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| 00:28:06 | <janus> | arkanoid: maybe you know the blog series "24 days of haskell extensions" by ollie charles. but i stumbled over this commentary by Lennart Augustsson which provides some commentary : http://augustss.blogspot.com/ |
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| 00:29:16 | <janus> | you can see how Augustsson explains that RankNTypes is an old idea with a bit of history |
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| 00:31:15 | <arkanoid> | thanks. Yeah I've found this blog before but it didn't catch my attention more than other resources, but it was before understanding at least the very basics of haskell |
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| 00:35:21 | <euouae> | Hello I am trying to install Haskell on this macOS |
| 00:35:35 | <euouae> | I thought there was a Haskell platform I could install, but apparently not, was it discontinued? |
| 00:36:32 | <geekosaur> | it was |
| 00:37:01 | <arkanoid> | euouae: I'm a new haskell user and I've started by using stack https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/README/ |
| 00:37:07 | <euouae> | Great, thank you |
| 00:37:08 | <geekosaur> | generally the best way to start is to use ghcup to install ghc, then install stuff as needed in cabal or stack projects |
| 00:37:30 | <euouae> | arkanoid: nice! What's your goal? |
| 00:37:43 | <euouae> | arkanoid: I learned Haskell out of curiosity but I'm finding it very useful lately |
| 00:38:03 | <euouae> | "learned" means I learned some basics :P |
| 00:38:28 | <arkanoid> | I want to improve my generally programming abilities by understanding how haskell tackles complexity. I'm an imperative programmer on my daily job |
| 00:40:30 | <euouae> | Can you make ghcup use the XDG spec? |
| 00:41:41 | <euouae> | arkanoid: nice, so you're not going for a specific library or tool then? |
| 00:42:34 | <euouae> | never mind I read the script, there's GHCUP_USE_XDG_DIRS |
| 00:43:33 | <Axman6> | euouae: https://www.haskell.org/downloads/ is probably the most up to date documentation. IMO I would start with installing ghcup |
| 00:43:47 | <arkanoid> | not yet. I mean. Quickcheck is interesting |
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| 00:44:24 | <euouae> | Axman6, thank you |
| 00:45:14 | <Axman6> | stack is also not a bad iption for someone getting started, it removes a bit of the need to know about how to use cabal |
| 00:45:51 | <Axman6> | option* |
| 00:46:01 | <Axman6> | an installing ghcup can also install stack |
| 00:46:31 | <janus> | arkanoid: you should check out hedgehog too, it is not based so much on the lawless typeclass |
| 00:50:04 | <arkanoid> | may I ask you what do you mean by lawless typeclass? |
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| 00:50:35 | <Axman6> | arkanoid: IMO, Haskell is excellent for handling complexity - abstractions can be simple and powerful, and refactoring in |
| 00:51:15 | <Axman6> | haskell is a joy most of the time - refactor fealessly (as long as you follow a few simple rules that prevent introduced errors showin gup, like using wildcard patterns in case statements etc.) |
| 00:51:55 | <janus> | arkanoid: here is an example of some typeclass laws: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/Data-Functor.html#t:Functor |
| 00:52:12 | <Axman6> | Refactoring large code bases is enerally done by: make the change you know you need to make, then follw the errors until it compiles again, and this is much more likely to result in working code than most other languages |
| 00:52:45 | <janus> | arkanoid: sometimes it is hard to choose a canonical instance, i think this is why there is no Monoid Integer for example, they would have to choose either multiplication or addition |
| 00:53:36 | <janus> | arkanoid: but regarding testing, it is pretty common to want a specific distribution. so that is one argument against Arbitrary from QuickCheck, you'd have to choose a canonical distribution |
| 00:54:40 | <janus> | arkanoid: another argument could be that it would make you put the Arbitrary instances in the module with the code you want to test, to avoid orphan instances. but a lot of people prefer having the testing code in a separate directory tree |
| 00:55:34 | <janus> | i dunno if these are the universally recognized reasons, and of course there are many different opinions on this, and probably QuickCheck works great for a lot of people. i just thought you'd be interested in checking out hedgehog too |
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| 00:57:08 | <janus> | dunno if my answer was too indirect, i can try again... |
| 00:58:27 | <arkanoid> | I have to admit that I hardly grasped the meaning, but I've saved it for the future |
| 00:58:42 | <janus> | arkanoid: do you know what orphan instances are? |
| 00:59:45 | <arkanoid> | reading just now |
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| 01:02:15 | <Axman6> | It can take a while before you run into the issues with quickcheck, I think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boBD1qhCQ94 might cover some of them, though |
| 01:02:40 | <Axman6> | I think there's also another good lambdajam talk about tge benefits of hedgehog, and usually quickcheck is introduced first |
| 01:03:08 | <Axman6> | actually, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIv_9T0xKEo might be a better place to to start |
| 01:04:50 | <arkanoid> | thanks! A lot of material to grok in a single day, and actually I've exausted my batteries and need some sleep now |
| 01:05:03 | <dsal> | I've still never tried hedgehog. You can get pretty far with qc |
| 01:05:11 | <arkanoid> | I'd like to thank you for the help and for the hints |
| 01:05:16 | <janus> | good night |
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| 01:11:05 | <janus> | wow, that last Axman6 talk has graphs of the generator combinators. that should totally be in the docs like with reanimate, so useful |
| 01:11:37 | <Axman6> | PR's welcome :P |
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| 01:14:04 | <janus> | i'll take a stab at it. those diagrams are too simple to be copyrightable |
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| 01:35:20 | <euouae> | How can I get all 01 sequences of length n in Haskell? |
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| 01:36:15 | <Axman6> | > replicateM 10 "01" |
| 01:36:17 | <lambdabot> | ["0000000000","0000000001","0000000010","0000000011","0000000100","000000010... |
| 01:36:20 | <Axman6> | =) |
| 01:36:38 | <euouae> | Nice wow |
| 01:36:44 | <euouae> | Came a long way from https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2010-October/084952.html which I just found |
| 01:36:57 | <Axman6> | understanding how that works is pretty fun |
| 01:37:11 | <Axman6> | > replicateM 10 [0,1] |
| 01:37:13 | <euouae> | I think it's sort of coming back to me. You're using ++ as a monad |
| 01:37:13 | <lambdabot> | [[0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0],[0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1],[0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0],[0,0,0,0,... |
| 01:37:22 | <euouae> | I mean, List as a monad, with ++ |
| 01:37:48 | <Axman6> | well, list _is_ a monad |
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| 01:39:16 | <Axman6> | but the summary is that replicateM n m is equivalent to do { a <- m; b <- m; ... x <-; m return [a,b,...x] } |
| 01:41:12 | <euouae> | Right, I can't remember why a <- m goes over all elements of a list |
| 01:41:56 | <janus> | if it only requires applicative, why isn't there a synonym called replicateA? |
| 01:42:29 | <Axman6> | concatMap (\a -> ...) m |
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| 01:44:05 | <Axman6> | @src concatMap |
| 01:44:05 | <lambdabot> | concatMap f = foldr ((++) . f) [] |
| 01:44:10 | <Axman6> | clear as mud |
| 01:45:08 | <euouae> | What do you do with camelCase if the first word is a name? |
| 01:45:12 | <euouae> | I guess it is what it is? |
| 01:46:21 | <Axman6> | yes |
| 01:46:29 | <Axman6> | lower case only for variable names |
| 01:48:53 | <janus> | hmm interesting how there is sequence/sequenceA but only one replicateM. i wonder if it is because of performance reasons? |
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| 02:03:21 | <euouae> | How would you write a function that does the following : [Bool] -> [Int] and f [True, False, True] = +1/2 - 1/2^2 + 1/2^3 ? |
| 02:04:01 | <euouae> | The type should be [Bool] -> Int. I'm trying to write one using a map and zip with [1..] to keep track of the position in the list. I think there might be a better way, not sure |
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| 02:12:49 | <dsal> | euouae: Your definition demonstrates boolean blindness. |
| 02:13:09 | <euouae> | I have this code, including the error: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/W9kwWzbT I don't understand it |
| 02:13:17 | <euouae> | deal: What do you mean? |
| 02:13:34 | <dsal> | What does true mean here? |
| 02:13:53 | <euouae> | It's a way to encode the +- |
| 02:14:32 | <dsal> | Why not just just + and -? |
| 02:14:33 | <euouae> | Are you saying that I should've written it so that +1, -1 are directly in the combinations instead of True/False? |
| 02:14:43 | <janus> | no need for map: f inputsbools = sum [x | (y, positive) <- zip [1..] inputbools; let x = (if positive then 1 else (-1)) * (1/2^y)] |
| 02:14:53 | <dsal> | Or succ/pred |
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| 02:15:12 | <euouae> | succ/pred doesn't sound right, I plan to use it multiplicatively |
| 02:16:09 | <euouae> | I'll change it to +-1 |
| 02:17:25 | <euouae> | I think I found my issue, I can't multiply Int with Ratio |
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| 02:18:14 | <dsal> | > cycle [1, -1] |
| 02:18:16 | <lambdabot> | [1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,... |
| 02:19:16 | <janus> | i don't understand why cycle is useful since i thought it only cycles between - and + because of that specific example, but not in general |
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| 02:20:08 | <Axman6> | > zipWith (*) (cycle [1,-1]) (iterate (/2) 1) |
| 02:20:10 | <lambdabot> | [1.0,-0.5,0.25,-0.125,6.25e-2,-3.125e-2,1.5625e-2,-7.8125e-3,3.90625e-3,-1.9... |
| 02:20:28 | <Axman6> | > scanl (+) 0 $ zipWith (*) (cycle [1,-1]) (iterate (*0.5) 1) |
| 02:20:29 | <lambdabot> | [0.0,1.0,0.5,0.75,0.625,0.6875,0.65625,0.671875,0.6640625,0.66796875,0.66601... |
| 02:21:13 | <euouae> | That doesn't seem right |
| 02:21:22 | <euouae> | I want 0, 1, 0.5, 0.75, 0.25, ... |
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| 02:21:41 | <euouae> | I'm using the replicateM solution above |
| 02:22:14 | <janus> | the second exampe does give that sequence... |
| 02:22:43 | <Axman6> | > zipWith (*) (cycle [1,-1]) (iterate (/2) 1) |
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| 02:22:45 | <lambdabot> | [1.0,-0.5,0.25,-0.125,6.25e-2,-3.125e-2,1.5625e-2,-7.8125e-3,3.90625e-3,-1.9... |
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| 02:23:04 | <janus> | oh, no, the fourth is 0.75 and not 0.25 |
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| 02:23:44 | <euouae> | binaryToCenter ratio xs = map (\j b -> ratio^j) (zip [1..] xs) -- even this fails |
| 02:24:36 | <janus> | euouae: do you know about fromRational? |
| 02:24:53 | <janus> | or maybe toRational is better here.. |
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| 02:25:17 | <euouae> | Where is the conflict? I can't tell |
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| 02:25:59 | <euouae> | `(3 % 4) ^ (3 :: Int) -- seems to work fine` |
| 02:26:12 | <pavonia> | euouae: What is the math behind your series? |
| 02:26:31 | <euouae> | pavonia: centers of cantor set n-th level construction |
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| 02:27:59 | <janus> | % (3 % 4) ^ (3::Int) |
| 02:28:00 | <yahb> | janus: 27 % 64 |
| 02:30:08 | <euouae> | Oh I also have an issue with how I unpack the arguments with the lambda, it's a tuple ... |
| 02:30:21 | <justsomeguy> | /c/c |
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| 02:36:27 | <Axman6> | > scanl (+) 0 $ zipWith (*) (cycle [1,-1]) (iterate (*0.5) 0.5) |
| 02:36:28 | <lambdabot> | [0.0,0.5,0.25,0.375,0.3125,0.34375,0.328125,0.3359375,0.33203125,0.333984375... |
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| 02:39:48 | <Axman6> | euouae: in case it wasn't clear, scanl (+) gives the running sum of the first n elements |
| 02:40:00 | <Axman6> | > scanl (+) 0 [1..10] |
| 02:40:02 | <lambdabot> | [0,1,3,6,10,15,21,28,36,45,55] |
| 02:40:09 | <Axman6> | > scanl (+) 0 [1..10] :: [Expr] |
| 02:40:11 | <lambdabot> | [0,0 + 1,0 + 1 + 2,0 + 1 + 2 + 3,0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4,0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5,0 +... |
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| 02:43:22 | <janus> | Expr is really cool |
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| 02:55:40 | <euouae> | Axman6: nice |
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| 06:08:14 | <euouae> | Hello how do I run some computations in parallel? |
| 06:08:38 | <Axman6> | we have lots of ways to doing that, can you give some more info about what you want to run? |
| 06:08:56 | <euouae> | For example I have https://paste.tomsmeding.com/BkWecUCU now |
| 06:09:22 | <euouae> | I'd like the x1-loop in averageTriangleArea to be split before the sum in the processors |
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| 06:10:51 | <Axman6> | you might want ot check out https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/parallel-and-concurrent/9781449335939/ - if you scroll to the ToC, you can see it's all available for free online (but Simon is a great guy so you should buy it if you find it helpful!) |
| 06:11:37 | <Axman6> | https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/parallel-and-concurrent/9781449335939/pt01.html specifically is where you'd want to start - it's pretty easy to do things which look like they should run in parallel but don;t because of laziness, so that's worth reading |
| 06:11:38 | <euouae> | oh wow he's a codev of ghc |
| 06:12:31 | <Axman6> | yep, that book should be considered canonical, as Simon built most of this stuff as far as I understand it. you will eventually end up at https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parallel |
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| 06:12:54 | <Axman6> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parallel-3.2.2.0/docs/Control-Parallel-Strategies.html and where the meat is |
| 06:14:19 | <euouae> | Okay, very nice. Thank you |
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| 06:15:31 | <euouae> | Axman6, do you also happen to know if Haskell does well with distributed computing? |
| 06:16:14 | <euouae> | In terms of computations. In C++ I was looking into OpenMP (parallelism), OpenMPI (distributed computing) and HIP (AMD & Intel gpu programming) |
| 06:16:41 | <Axman6> | That's a difficult question. It's not Erlang, but there is some stuff for doing Erlang like things in the cloud-haskell project. It's an excellent language for writing network servers though, and using those you can of course build distributed computing systems |
| 06:17:18 | <euouae> | Okay, there's no user friendly stuff then ] |
| 06:17:25 | <Axman6> | Haskell threads are extremely lightweight, so for network servers, it is the norm to fork one thread per connection, which greatly simplifies the mental model |
| 06:17:42 | <euouae> | When you speak of networks, I don't even know why they're mentioned ( I've never done distributed computing before) |
| 06:18:00 | <euouae> | I don't know what OpenMPI does, but I'm assuming it utilizes the network to distribute work |
| 06:18:10 | <Axman6> | Facebook's thrift stuff would certainly get you a long way towards to building large concurrent systems, since that's exactly what they're using it for in their spam filtering |
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| 06:19:14 | <euouae> | Again, not sure why that is mentioned. I'm trying to do some computations (Such as computing factorials say) |
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| 06:20:03 | <Axman6> | OpenMPI takes care of several things: it distributes binaries across clusters (it's almost exclusively used for HPC/scientific computing as far as I understand it), and abstracting network comminications between distinct executions - it's niche is things like large matrix computations where each node in the cluster computes a sub computation and then MPI helps to efficiently move the temporary results around and combine them into the full result |
| 06:20:43 | <Axman6> | Distributed computing only makes sense if there's a network, so that's why I metnion it |
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| 06:21:05 | <euouae> | Ok but I'm assuming they're not communicating with TCP, or are they? |
| 06:21:50 | <Axman6> | if you're talking about MPI, that would depend on the cluster. MPI usually knows how to use things like infiniband, which is basically a networked PCI bus with direct memory access |
| 06:22:14 | <Axman6> | but there's no reason not to use TCP either, it'll just be hiugher latency, which might be fine |
| 06:22:46 | <euouae> | I guess you're right, adding seconds to a computation is not a big deal if it takes an hour or more |
| 06:22:48 | <Axman6> | you did specifically ask about distributed computing, so if that's not what you axtually meant, I can give other answers :P |
| 06:23:04 | <Axman6> | actually* |
| 06:23:31 | <euouae> | I don't feel very comfortable in these topics as I've never done them before, so my apology if I'm flimsy hehe |
| 06:23:42 | <euouae> | I've only had experience with parallelism within a single node |
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| 06:24:19 | <euouae> | I think as a first introduction I might go with C++ and OpenMPI and switch to Haskell later if I can |
| 06:24:22 | <Axman6> | Well we have lots of tools for that, and that book is basically the bible on the topic, do get reading! it's extremely approachable if you have the basics of Haskell down |
| 06:24:34 | <euouae> | Oh so it does mention distributed computing as well? |
| 06:24:45 | <Axman6> | if you're working on a single machine, OpenMPI is unnecessary. OpenMP will give you parallelism though |
| 06:24:58 | <euouae> | I have access to a supercoputer |
| 06:25:01 | <Axman6> | you don't seem to be talking about distributed computing |
| 06:25:24 | <Axman6> | OpenMPI doesn't magically take a single binary and make it run across a whole cluster though |
| 06:25:36 | <euouae> | I've never used OpenMPI |
| 06:25:46 | <euouae> | It's on my todo list |
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| 07:28:22 | <juri_> | I haven't seen much haskell distributed computing stuff that 'just works', sadly. |
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| 07:29:01 | <euouae> | juri_: so it's a thing for experts? |
| 07:29:15 | <euouae> | I'm just getting into it myself, I'm hopeful |
| 07:29:23 | <euouae> | at least I'm hopeful I can get it done in C++ |
| 07:29:33 | <juri_> | I think it's just a thing that stalls every now and then, because there's not much demand. |
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| 07:29:59 | <euouae> | It surprises me that scientific computing isn't bigger with Haskell |
| 07:30:05 | <euouae> | It is very convenient for it |
| 07:30:21 | <juri_> | I think one thing that has stuck in that area is accelerate. |
| 07:30:30 | <juri_> | or data parallel haskell.. |
| 07:31:19 | <juri_> | accelerate is neat, because if you write code within it's constraints, you can use a GPU and CPU at the same time.. |
| 07:31:44 | <euouae> | Right but can you use multiple nodes? |
| 07:31:52 | <juri_> | I'm just not much of a fan, because it requires real nvidia drivers. |
| 07:32:05 | <euouae> | Real drivers? |
| 07:32:26 | <juri_> | no, for that, you'd want cloud haskell. which seems to be stalling out. |
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| 07:33:41 | <Athas> | DPH is also long dead, but Accelerate is active. |
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| 09:41:23 | <pmk> | Hey all. I am getting this error whenever stack tries to interact with the network: https://dpaste.com/9ZZES2Y98. Building with cabal works (i.e. it downloads the dependencies from hackage). I tried running stack from inside a VM on the same host (which works), and also tried removing $HOME/.stack/ and reinstalling stack using ghcup but no luck. Has anyone seen something line this before or do you have any ideas on how I would go about |
| 09:41:23 | <pmk> | debugging this issue? |
| 09:43:12 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client) |
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| 09:43:17 | <maerwald> | https://status.haskell.org/ |
| 09:44:13 | <Hecate> | > Note: This page is manually updated |
| 09:44:14 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 09:44:15 | <lambdabot> | • Data constructor not in scope: Note |
| 09:44:15 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant ‘Node’ (imported from Data.Tree)error: |
| 09:44:52 | <maerwald> | the other site is 404 :) |
| 09:45:01 | <maerwald> | https://auto-status.haskell.org/ |
| 09:45:59 | <pmk> | Thanks, I did not know about that page! Everything looks green on it from here. I should note that this has been happening for a couple of days now. |
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| 09:50:24 | <Hecate> | pmk: please do report this at #haskell-infrastructure |
| 09:51:16 | <pmk> | Will do. Thanks. |
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| 09:53:07 | <Hecate> | pmk: thank you :) |
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| 10:28:19 | <Maxdamantus> | |
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| 11:04:18 | <Arahael> | What's does it mean when we do: `data Foo foo where ...`? |
| 11:04:30 | <Arahael> | I've not really come across that syntax for data types. |
| 11:04:47 | <Arahael> | Example: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/proto-lens-0.7.0.0/docs/src/Data.ProtoLens.Message.html#FieldDescriptor |
| 11:06:03 | <kritzefitz> | Arahael, that's called a generalized algebraic data type (or GADT for short) |
| 11:06:09 | <Taneb> | Arahael: they're GADTs (or at least using the GADT syntax) |
| 11:06:10 | <Taneb> | https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/gadt.html |
| 11:06:38 | <Arahael> | Taneb: Thanks. |
| 11:06:42 | <Arahael> | That helps heaps! |
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| 11:46:52 | tomsmeding | was wondering what X is in the correspondence: sequence (map f l) == mapM f l ; sequenceA (map f l) == X |
| 11:46:58 | tomsmeding | realised that it's all traverse |
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| 11:49:50 | <jippiedoe> | It's always traverse :) |
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| 12:55:45 | <arkanoid> | I'm studying an introduction to algebraic data types. I've a question: what's the point of writing the last line like that instead of just "emptyBoard = TicTacToe2 Nothing"? https://termbin.com/3os5 |
| 12:56:24 | <Taneb> | arkanoid: the advantage is that it typechecks |
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| 12:56:44 | <Taneb> | "const $ const Nothing" is of type a -> b -> Maybe a (here, Three -> Three -> Maybe Bool) |
| 12:56:53 | <Taneb> | Whereas "Nothing" is just of type Maybe a |
| 12:57:12 | <Taneb> | That first one should end with Maybe c, not Maybe a, sorry |
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| 12:59:40 | <arkanoid> | thanks! |
| 12:59:43 | <arkanoid> | makes sense |
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| 13:07:25 | <arkanoid> | is there any difference in writing "data TicTacToe2 a = TicTacToe2 { board :: Three -> Three -> a}" and "data TicTacToe2 a = TicTacToe Three -> Three -> a" apart the generated "board" get function? |
| 13:07:50 | <arkanoid> | forget a "2" on second TicTacToe |
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| 13:09:33 | <Taneb> | There's a few more minor differences, you get the record syntax with the first one, so you could write "TicTacToe2 { board = const $ const Nothing }" for example |
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| 13:11:41 | <arkanoid> | thanks |
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| 13:18:48 | <Cajun> | im reading the same book atm, is there a benefit to record syntax? when i was learning haskell from Programming in Haskell, record syntax was never mentioned, so it always seems unnatural. is it just cleaner? |
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| 13:23:18 | <Cajun> | is it just more for your money (you get record syntax), or does it have more of a benefit? |
| 13:23:34 | <juri_> | I actually find it dirtier, as it creates accessor functions by default, which can be.. poorly named. |
| 13:23:54 | <jippiedoe> | It's a way to name fields, so if you ever find yourself with a datatype `Data Foo = Foo Bool Bool Bool` it might be better to use record syntax to name all of those. Ofcourse, you can often sidestep the issue with better datatype design! |
| 13:23:57 | <juri_> | in a project i inherited, i had an accessor function for 'x' and 'y'. bad. |
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| 13:25:24 | <arkanoid> | does it make any sense to use record syntax for a data type with just 1 type, like the aforementioned example? |
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| 13:31:04 | <arthurxavierx> | At work we've tried a lot of stuff and settled down on using DuplicateRecordFields, RecordWildCards and generic-lens (but HasField from GHC.Records works just fine as well). We don't prefix record accessors and only use RecordWildCards when constructing or destructing records in a sufficiently narrow scope. To access fields in other contexts we use `getField @"fieldName"`. This approach has been working very well IMO. |
| 13:31:51 | <arthurxavierx> | although I'd find it easier on the eye if we used OverloadedLabels to have it look like IHP's `get #fieldName` |
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| 13:34:46 | <jippiedoe> | arkanoid: For newtypes, it's a common style to write `newtype Foo = Foo { runFoo :: _ }`, but it only really saves 1 line of defining runFoo yourself. Small benefit is that (I think) you import `runFoo` for free with `Foo(..)` |
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| 13:39:54 | <yushyin> | juri_: NoFieldSelectors to the rescue https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/field_selectors.html#extension-FieldSelectors |
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| 13:45:59 | <arthurxavierx> | yushyin: do you know if NoFieldSelectors have any weird interaction with RecordWildCards? |
| 13:49:51 | <yushyin> | arthurxavierx: i don't know for sure, but it should work just fine since the fields are still available. (it's only the selector functions that are no longer generated) |
| 13:50:12 | <arthurxavierx> | hm that makes sense. thanks! |
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| 13:56:57 | <arkanoid> | thanks |
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| 13:58:49 | <nshepperd2> | iirc the selector functions are actually generated, they're just made inaccessible in the top level namespace |
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| 14:06:55 | <yushyin> | even that might be the case, yes, i should not have assumed this without knowing the implementation |
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| 14:27:52 | <raehik1> | Is it possible to use Happy in a context-sensitive manner, eg have two rules where the expansions are the same(/similar), but the correct one can be selected by checking some state somewhere? |
| 14:28:36 | <raehik1> | Not a language design question, it's a pre-existing language that's known for being horrible for parsing |
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| 14:35:51 | <edrx> | hi all, I am trying to debug this issue by myself: <https://github.com/agda/agda/issues/5486>, "agda --compile hello-world.agda: how do I install ieee754 with stack? #5486" - and I've been able to reduce it to a problem with just stack and ghc... |
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| 14:40:18 | <edrx> | I tried to do "stack install ieee754" and "stack install text" but the haskell code that Agda generates still can't find the Numeric.IEEE module... more precisely, one of the haskell files generated by Agda has this line - "import Numeric.IEEE ( IEEE(identicalIEEE, nan) )" |
| 14:42:39 | <geekosaur> | you have to compile via stack to see stuff installed via stack. "stack install" installs into the "global project" — but ghc doesn't know about stack projects, even its "global project" |
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| 14:44:38 | <geekosaur> | so any invocations of ghc have to be replaced by "stack ghc --" |
| 14:44:41 | <edrx> | looks promising! how do I make stack compile ieee754? |
| 14:45:34 | <edrx> | this "stack ghc" will call ghc with extra command line options to make use the right directories, right? |
| 14:45:56 | <edrx> | make use -> make it (ghc) use |
| 14:46:01 | <geekosaur> | yes |
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| 14:49:09 | <edrx> | is there a way to make stack just say how it would run ghc instead of running ghc? I just discovered that if I call agda as "agda --ghc-dont-call-ghc --compile test1.agda" is says "NOT calling: ghc -O -o /home/edrx/AGDA/test1 -Werror -i/home/edrx/AGDA -main-is MAlonzo.Code.Qtest1 /home/edrx/AGDA/MAlonzo/Code/Qtest1.hs --make -fwarn-incomplete-patterns -fno-warn-overlapping-patterns" instead of calling ghc, and I am |
| 14:49:10 | <edrx> | using that for debugging... |
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| 14:50:16 | <geekosaur> | it's more complex than that as it's building a package environment in the background, iirc |
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| 14:50:27 | <edrx> | ouch =( |
| 14:50:49 | <geekosaur> | it's easier if you can just convince agda to call "stack ghc --" |
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| 14:51:40 | <savask> | Hello. Could someone point me at a way of including a text file into a haskell prog at compile time? As if it was a huge String constant defined in some module |
| 14:51:40 | <edrx> | that would make ghc run "in the global stack project"? |
| 14:51:48 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 14:52:03 | <geekosaur> | unless there's a local stack project |
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| 14:54:09 | <edrx> | ok! the agda people usually take at least a day to answer, so let me ask a couple of other questions... how do I make stack list the packages that are installed in the global project? and how I make it list the files and directories that are associated to the package ieee754? |
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| 15:00:08 | <geekosaur> | sorry, I don't know stack well enough to answer that :( |
| 15:01:32 | <geekosaur> | sm, you around |
| 15:01:35 | <geekosaur> | ? |
| 15:02:50 | <edrx> | thanks a lot anyway!!! =) |
| 15:08:18 | <edrx> | the command that agda executes to call ghc to compile the .hs files that it generates is this one: |
| 15:08:24 | <edrx> | "ghc -O -o /home/edrx/AGDA/test1 -Werror -i/home/edrx/AGDA -main-is MAlonzo.Code.Qtest1 /home/edrx/AGDA/MAlonzo/Code/Qtest1.hs --make -fwarn-incomplete-patterns -fno-warn-overlapping-patterns" |
| 15:09:34 | <edrx> | how do I make stack execute that? (I tried 5 syntaxes and they didn't work... apologies for my beginerishness) |
| 15:10:34 | <geekosaur> | did you include the -- ? |
| 15:10:59 | <geekosaur> | (with a space after; it stops stack from eating parameters meant for ghc) |
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| 15:12:10 | <edrx> | I did, but only in the wrong places... now I tried "stack exec -- ghc -O -o ..." and it worked! thanks!!! |
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| 17:20:30 | <arkanoid> | the more I dive into haskell type system, the more I feel it's out of reach for my brain. I now fear the ivory tower. |
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| 17:22:28 | <davean> | arkanoid: its just a pile of equalities |
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| 17:23:03 | <davean> | Are they equal? Yes/No |
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| 17:23:41 | <monochrom> | I am not sure what kind of response you're looking for. |
| 17:24:10 | <monochrom> | I'm OK with "I'm just venting, please don't answer, nothing to look here" though. |
| 17:24:37 | <davean> | monochrom: no, I pretty much always want to know if two types are equal or not, can you just tell me yes no for every pair of types? |
| 17:25:00 | <monochrom> | I hope I can! |
| 17:25:10 | <monochrom> | But I meant arkanoid's sentence. |
| 17:26:23 | <monochrom> | But regarding type equality, people usually want a way more detailed answer than "no". |
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| 17:27:05 | <davean> | hey want to know why it isn't equal |
| 17:27:12 | <davean> | but thats pretty simple - because it isn't the same thing |
| 17:27:19 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 17:27:36 | <davean> | Honestly I'm serious here, people do seem to tihnk type systems are some complex beast |
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| 17:27:41 | <davean> | but they're just combinators and equality |
| 17:28:05 | <davean> | I think people make too much of them |
| 17:28:18 | <davean> | They're damn useful, but at the bottom, they're dirt simple |
| 17:28:58 | <nitrix> | I prefer to think of it as constraint solving. |
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| 17:30:03 | <arkanoid> | monochrom: I'm not expecting any response, it's just a phrase generated by a peak of frustration. I fear it was too early for trying the comprehension of "Thinking with types". I plan to step back and get another general book instead, just to regain some confidence (hopefully) |
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| 17:30:44 | <monochrom> | Uh that's definitely an advanced level book. |
| 17:31:31 | <DigitalKiwi> | thinking without types |
| 17:31:38 | <monochrom> | I haven't never studied it or anything equivalent, and yet I wrote a lot of little Haskell programs useful for me. |
| 17:33:25 | <monochrom> | I don't understand why someone would go "I'm a Java beginner" then choose research papers on Java JIT optimization as their first material and then say "this is PhD-level madness, Java is not for me". |
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| 17:33:48 | <monochrom> | Well, I can understand if the solution is that they don't understand what "I'm a beginner" means. |
| 17:34:08 | <davean> | monochrom: they don't want to be bored? |
| 17:34:18 | <monochrom> | BTW there was also a time when OOP was PhD level stuff. |
| 17:34:24 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://twitter.com/ArchKiwi/status/1230074233012748289?s=20 |
| 17:35:26 | <arkanoid> | That's not the point. It's kinda like "I love rally" and then when you finally feel brave enough to jump into a rally car you shit yourself |
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| 17:36:09 | <davean> | monochrom: pretty much the JIT integration is the only reason I'd program Java |
| 17:36:14 | <davean> | monochrom: they have a nice JIT toolkit! |
| 17:37:08 | <DigitalKiwi> | plz buy my new book on dysfunctional programming; types without thinking, available soon but maybe never! |
| 17:38:05 | <monochrom> | Wait, types without thinking? thinking without types? |
| 17:38:24 | <DigitalKiwi> | yes |
| 17:38:41 | <monochrom> | You know, "without" can also mean "outside", so "think outside the types" sounds like an attractive kind of "think outside the box" thing :) |
| 17:38:56 | <DigitalKiwi> | Hecate: does your quotes.txt have an api; i would like to query it |
| 17:39:24 | <monochrom> | "curl | grep" :) |
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| 17:40:55 | <dsal> | arkanoid: My experience is that I build dumb things dumb ways and then every once in a while, I remember a thing I read that didn't make any sense to me at the time and realize how it applies to my current situation and makes things much simpler. |
| 17:41:11 | <DigitalKiwi> | .glirclogs/#mostlyabsurd/2020-04-27.log:[12:56:36] <DigitalKiwi> you may wonder how my brain works, to which i ask, does it? |
| 17:41:21 | <monochrom> | DigitalKiwi: Which one do you like more: "thinking without types without thinking", "types without thinking without types" |
| 17:41:33 | <dsal> | e.g., I read about FunctionalDependencies and just kind of ignored it because why would I ever need that? Then it was suddenly the exact solution to a problem I ran into when trying to design something. |
| 17:42:07 | <DigitalKiwi> | monochrom: are you gonna name squat it lol |
| 17:42:08 | <monochrom> | Yeah I like to tell people "I'm a Chinese Room right here" too. |
| 17:42:18 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 17:42:26 | <dsal> | Or monoids... they seem so dumb when you read the description. Then you find that when you just do the dumb thing and model stuff as a monoid, things get incrementally easier and suddenly a lot of stuff gets easier. |
| 17:42:43 | <dsal> | But you don't need to start out that way. Just do the simple things and then watch things emerge. |
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| 17:43:25 | <dsal> | DigitalKiwi: that looks exactly like something I think constantly. |
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| 17:46:02 | <DigitalKiwi> | oh no |
| 17:46:31 | <DigitalKiwi> | the doctors think i'm crazy but what do they know |
| 17:48:10 | <arkanoid> | dsal: I know that feeling. I dived into FP after naively asking (while doing procedure-based programming) "this function is not pure just because it raises exception, is there a solution?" and BAM I was inside the Monad rabbit hole |
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| 17:49:45 | <arkanoid> | so I wrote a Monad metaprogramming based library to cope with that, and then I realised that I was lacking HKT, and BAM I'm here |
| 17:50:09 | <DigitalKiwi> | monochrom: what's that mean |
| 17:50:38 | <DigitalKiwi> | the only mandarin i know is oranges ;( |
| 17:51:06 | <monochrom> | I know Chinese. I came from and grew up in Hong Kong. |
| 17:52:02 | <DigitalKiwi> | what was that like |
| 17:52:10 | <monochrom> | Then I learned that this fellow, John Searle, whose only arguments are founded in circular logic and human ego, coined the term "Chinese Room" to badmouth A.I. |
| 17:52:11 | <maerwald> | odd question :D |
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| 17:54:37 | <monochrom> | So my reply is I'm a Chinese Room here, you can't prove that I understand Chinese either (even though you find that I can use it greatly). And BTW I have seen that a lot of TOEFL takers trained for it by training themselves to be awesome English Rooms not awesome English users. |
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| 17:55:40 | <monochrom> | Anyway back to being a Haskell Room! |
| 17:56:01 | <DigitalKiwi> | i'll have you know i do not speak english; i'm american! |
| 17:56:14 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 17:56:28 | <sm> | geekosaur, edrx: |
| 17:56:28 | <sm> | cd; stack exec -- ghc-pkg list |
| 17:56:28 | <sm> | stack exec -- ghc-pkg describe ieee754 |
| 17:56:33 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://mostlyabsurd.com/about/#robert-djubek |
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| 17:56:47 | <monochrom> | Shameless plug: Learn how to become a type inference room from my http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/type-inference.html |
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| 18:01:53 | <catern> | dear #haskell, is there anything like Java's native methods/JNI for Haskell? I know that there's FFI in general, of course, but I mean specifically, a way that you can write down a file full of type signatures, and some tool will process that and generate corresponding C headers that you can then implement? akin to https://www.baeldung.com/jni#2-implementing-a-method-in-c |
| 18:03:55 | <mastarija> | So, I want to create Alternative instance `Alternative f` where `f :: Monoid a => a -> Type` |
| 18:03:58 | <mastarija> | Is this possible? |
| 18:04:51 | <mastarija> | GHC suggests adding instance sigs when I play dumb and define `empty` as `MyCons mempty` |
| 18:05:03 | <mastarija> | But it doesn't seem to be working |
| 18:06:17 | <roboguy__> | mastarija: you are trying to constrain the type argument to f to be a Monoid? If so, that is not really possible without making a new Alternative typeclass (or using one from a library that provides a constrained Alternative class) |
| 18:06:45 | <mastarija> | Yes, that's right |
| 18:07:07 | <mastarija> | roboguy__, hm... that's a shame |
| 18:07:22 | <[exa]> | mastarija: you'd need a proof that the `f` is a monoid for all possible parameters `a` |
| 18:07:56 | <mastarija> | [exa], No, I just want a from `f a` to be a monoid |
| 18:08:20 | <mastarija> | `f` doesn't have to be |
| 18:08:22 | <[exa]> | which you promise to be any type by promising that you can do instances of `Alternative f` |
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| 18:09:27 | <roboguy__> | mastarija: you could make a Monoid instance for f with that constraint if that helps, though |
| 18:09:27 | <[exa]> | I'm currently understanding the problem as trying to construct something like `instance (Applicative f, Monoid f a) => Alternative f "if applied to a"`, does that look right? |
| 18:09:43 | <mastarija> | Yes |
| 18:09:59 | <mastarija> | Cani I use something like ~ in the type constraints? |
| 18:10:25 | <mastarija> | Maybe I can say (Alternative ~ f, Monoid f a)? |
| 18:10:28 | <roboguy__> | You can actually only use ~ in a constraint, if I'm understanding you |
| 18:10:36 | <[exa]> | mastarija: one solution would be to have a parametrizable monoid type, like `Monoid1 f` which promises that all `f a` are monoids |
| 18:10:57 | <[exa]> | mastarija: surprise: that typeclass might be almost equivalent to Alternative now (I don't have a proof at hand tho, might need to consult typeclassopedia) |
| 18:11:29 | <DigitalKiwi> | if monochrom is an AI it would explain a lot actually hmm |
| 18:11:51 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 18:12:21 | <roboguy__> | catern: I'm not sure if there's a general purpose solution to that, but `gl` package has a thing that automatically generates the OpenGL bindings |
| 18:12:35 | <roboguy__> | https://github.com/ekmett/gl |
| 18:14:12 | <DigitalKiwi> | monochrom: do you write for business insider? |
| 18:14:27 | <monochrom> | No. |
| 18:14:57 | <mastarija> | Damn, I tried `forall f a. ( Validated a ~ f a , Monoid a )=> Alternative Validated` and it didn't work :D |
| 18:15:29 | <[exa]> | mastarija: that won't match the kind of Alternative, you're feeding it (* ->Constraint) but it expects * |
| 18:16:53 | <[exa]> | mastarija: btw what's the point of exercise? create an Alternative automatically for all Applicatives that can kindof "behave like" monoids? |
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| 18:17:35 | <mastarija> | [exa], No, I can successfully implement many instances for my `data Validated e = Inert e | Wrong e` data type |
| 18:17:47 | <mastarija> | All but alternative, which I need for validation purposes |
| 18:17:55 | <roboguy__> | mastarija: The fact that you cannot do something like this is a pretty well known limitation, which is why some libraries exist that provide replacement type classes when it is necessary (see, for instance, the "constrained monad problem": https://ku-fpg.github.io/files/Sculthorpe-13-ConstrainedMonad.pdf) |
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| 18:18:23 | <mastarija> | I could do something like `data Validated e a = Inert a | Wrong e` |
| 18:18:27 | <monochrom> | There are only 4 cases... |
| 18:19:00 | <mastarija> | Then I could implement Alternative, but then I have extra type variable which doesn't really make sense. |
| 18:19:18 | <roboguy__> | mastarija: what about `data Validated_ e a = Inert a | Wrong e; type Validated e = Validated_ e e`? |
| 18:19:32 | <DigitalKiwi> | there are 4 lights |
| 18:19:48 | <mastarija> | roboguy__, right |
| 18:20:02 | <mastarija> | Thought of that, but it kind of felt cheaty :D |
| 18:20:27 | <roboguy__> | There's unfortunately no non-cheating solution, hah. That might be the best among them |
| 18:20:32 | <catern> | roboguy__: hm, yes, but that's opposite of what I'm talking about though, that's generating Haskell from C headers/XML |
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| 18:20:39 | <mastarija> | Yes |
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| 18:21:10 | <mastarija> | Well, off I go experimenting some more. I kind of want to avoid extra libraries, because I'm doing so well without dependencies right now. |
| 18:22:00 | <mastarija> | And I kind of like my libraries to have as few dependencies as possible. |
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| 18:22:27 | <roboguy__> | It is worth mentioning, though, that the Validated_ type will have different Functor instances, etc, from the original |
| 18:23:07 | <roboguy__> | If you can get away with just having a Monoid instance instead of an Alternative instance, I would probably go for just the Monoid instance myself |
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| 18:23:59 | <[exa]> | mastarija: btw, what does the Monoid instance look like for your Validated? |
| 18:24:32 | <mastarija> | [exa], `mempty = Inert mempty |
| 18:24:32 | <mastarija> | ; mappend = (<>)` |
| 18:24:38 | <roboguy__> | catern: Ah. Hmm, well I am not sure in that case. I'm sure it's possible, but I don't know if it's been automated |
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| 18:27:06 | <mastarija> | [exa], why do you ask? |
| 18:27:09 | <[exa]> | mastarija: how does that work? mappend doesn't kinda typecheck for me |
| 18:27:55 | <mastarija> | [exa], Validated e also has a Semigroup instance |
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| 18:28:10 | <mastarija> | That's where <> is coming from |
| 18:28:18 | <mastarija> | If that's what confuses you |
| 18:28:27 | <monochrom> | At some point I would doubt that Validate is supposed to be an Alternative instance. |
| 18:29:19 | <roboguy__> | (<>) is the default implementation for mappend in newer versions of `base` |
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| 18:30:04 | <mastarija> | monochrom, I think I'll just add another "Inert" value without an argument e.g. `data Validated e = Neutral | Inert e | Wrong e` |
| 18:30:10 | <mastarija> | I think this will solve the problem |
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| 18:32:03 | <roboguy__> | mastarija: Would it work to use Maybe (Validated e) when you need to use an Alternative instance? That would let you avoid adding a new constructor |
| 18:32:05 | <mastarija> | Yep, that pretty much solves it |
| 18:32:51 | <mastarija> | roboguy__, I'd have to think about it. Validated is supposed to be internal type anyway, so it might be ok since users won't see it anyway. |
| 18:33:03 | <mastarija> | roboguy__, But it might make my code less pretty :D |
| 18:34:25 | <[exa]> | mastarija: ah so |
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| 18:44:07 | <maerwald> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/conduit-1.3.4.1/docs/Conduit.html#v:concatMapMC who knows what this does |
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| 18:46:58 | <monochrom> | Perhaps you can instantiate mono = [a], Element mono = a. |
| 18:47:20 | <monochrom> | Then you have: Monad m => (a -> m [a]) -> ConduitT a a m () |
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| 18:48:11 | <monochrom> | err perhaps mono = [b], Element mono = b. |
| 18:48:24 | <monochrom> | Monad m => (a -> m [b]) -> ConduitT a b m () |
| 18:49:03 | <monochrom> | Recall vanilla concatMap :: (a -> [b]) -> [a] -> [b]. |
| 18:49:38 | <monochrom> | So suppose you generalize a->[b] to a -> m [b], and [a]->[b] to ConduitT a b m () |
| 18:51:03 | <maerwald> | mono is `Maybe a` I think in my case and the whole conduit run seems to process the input in reverse and then short-circuit on the first Nothing |
| 18:51:11 | <maerwald> | it's rather odd |
| 18:52:04 | <maerwald> | https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack/blob/7927a3aec32e2b2e5e4fb5be76d0d50eddcc197f/src/Stack/Setup.hs#L629-L632 |
| 18:52:29 | <monochrom> | I would not be surprised at short-circuting Nothing. >>= does it. Everyone does it. |
| 18:52:48 | <maerwald> | the expected behavior would be to process list in order and then short-circuit on the first Just |
| 18:52:52 | <maerwald> | so this is all upside down |
| 18:53:00 | <maerwald> | s/list/stream/ |
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| 19:08:50 | <Hecate> | tdammers: how much do I need to bribe you to give life to this extension? https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/intrinsic-superclasses |
| 19:08:54 | <Hecate> | :P |
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| 19:11:57 | ← | savask parts (~savask@Powder/Developer/savask) () |
| 19:13:13 | <DigitalKiwi> | how can we overthrow the capitalists if you create super classes! |
| 19:13:44 | <monochrom> | Actually I think that's how to overthrow the capitalists. |
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| 19:15:38 | <maerwald> | but they all invested in bitcoin already |
| 19:17:09 | <Hecate> | DigitalKiwi: fortunately, typeclasses are not marxist superstructures :P |
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| 19:19:23 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://twitter.com/ArchKiwi/status/1414030295318282241 |
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| 19:20:53 | <monochrom> | I think I don't know what OH and c mean there. |
| 19:21:12 | <DigitalKiwi> | overheard |
| 19:21:39 | <Hecate> | c's => cease, monochrom |
| 19:21:42 | <monochrom> | I guess "c's" is meant to be pronounced like "seize" |
| 19:22:25 | <monochrom> | @quote monochrom faster.than. |
| 19:22:25 | <lambdabot> | monochrom says: einstein's theory implies that haskell cannot be faster than c |
| 19:22:35 | <DigitalKiwi> | yeah, "seize" = "c is" = "c's" |
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| 19:23:27 | <monochrom> | memes of production |
| 19:23:48 | <DigitalKiwi> | very good |
| 19:23:52 | DigitalKiwi | gives monochrom a bot snack |
| 19:23:57 | <monochrom> | https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.functional/c/VhekkXaMXew/m/tZVh_fKWGlcJ |
| 19:24:01 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 19:25:28 | <monochrom> | in which I missed the opportunity to phrase it as "bug production and bugfix production". |
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| 19:25:44 | <DigitalKiwi> | i came up with the punchline; the joke was supposed to be about parsers/compilers; but then i couldn't think of a good joke so i just let the reader infer one ;p |
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| 19:28:05 | <Hecate> | context inference, typical haskeller joke |
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| 19:29:36 | <DigitalKiwi> | :D |
| 19:30:04 | <DigitalKiwi> | that i was too lazy to create a proper joke too lol |
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| 19:32:15 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://mostlyabsurd.com/files/2021-07-26-193120_2215x569_scrot.png |
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| 19:42:12 | <mastarija> | In very abstract terms, let's say I'm describing some action that can either produce success or failure, when using the Alternative, what should alternative do? |
| 19:42:36 | <mastarija> | My instinct is, if a1 in a1 <|> a2 fails, then it should return a1 |
| 19:42:48 | <mastarija> | Otherwise it should return a2 |
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| 19:42:56 | <mastarija> | But what if both of actions fail? |
| 19:43:07 | <Rembane> | It should produce failure imo |
| 19:43:09 | <mastarija> | Should I only return the second one, or concat them? |
| 19:43:32 | <mastarija> | Rembane, I forgot to mention, I'm looking to return the failure error at the end |
| 19:43:56 | <mastarija> | So I'm not sure if I should return both failure errors, or just the last one I've tested? |
| 19:44:03 | <monochrom> | a1 *> a2 already does "both need to succeed". What would be the point of <|> if it did the same thing. |
| 19:44:05 | <Hecate> | if you care so much about using (<|>) then write an Either-like type for which the Applicative law is reversed :P |
| 19:44:08 | <mastarija> | My intuition is "just" the last one |
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| 19:44:47 | <dsal> | > Nothing <|> Just 3 |
| 19:44:48 | <lambdabot> | Just 3 |
| 19:44:49 | <dsal> | > Nothing <|> Nothing |
| 19:44:51 | <lambdabot> | Nothing |
| 19:45:17 | <mastarija> | Error a <|> Error b = Error b |
| 19:45:19 | <mastarija> | Or |
| 19:45:25 | <monochrom> | And considering the law "empty <|> x = x". |
| 19:45:29 | <mastarija> | Error a <|> Error b = Error a <> b |
| 19:45:42 | <geekosaur> | isn't that These? |
| 19:46:02 | <mastarija> | geekosaur, what do you mean? |
| 19:46:13 | <geekosaur> | @hackage these |
| 19:46:13 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/these |
| 19:46:29 | <mastarija> | Oh |
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| 19:48:06 | <mastarija> | geekosaur, no I need Monoid among other instances for my usecase |
| 19:48:46 | <mastarija> | But my question is more about the "Alternative" in general |
| 19:48:53 | <mastarija> | What is the reasoning behind it |
| 19:49:24 | <mastarija> | It says it's a monoid on applicative functors |
| 19:49:29 | <Rembane> | I think the very informal reasoning is: pick the first one that works. |
| 19:49:49 | <mastarija> | Yes, but what if neither work, but that "not working" produces a result |
| 19:49:55 | <mastarija> | Do I return both results |
| 19:50:00 | <mastarija> | Or just the last one? |
| 19:50:31 | <mastarija> | I have constraint that my type is "Monoid a => MyType a" |
| 19:51:01 | <mastarija> | Rembane, In that case I could mappend the two wrong results |
| 19:51:10 | <Rembane> | mastarija: If nothing works, you could return mempty. |
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| 19:51:44 | <Rembane> | mastarija: What I forgot to say earlier is that you decide this. It's your type. What makes sense to you? You can look at Maybe, Either and These for inspiration. |
| 19:51:45 | <mastarija> | Rembane, but I want to return information about what didn't work |
| 19:51:58 | <mastarija> | Rembane, ok |
| 19:52:06 | <mastarija> | That's the answer I was looking for |
| 19:52:09 | <mastarija> | :D |
| 19:52:33 | <Rembane> | :D |
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| 19:53:02 | <dsal> | I've tried some validation class that was like an error collecting Either, but it was more complicated and a worse experience than just not running a separate validation phase (from my parser). |
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| 19:53:32 | <Rembane> | Another example is a result type for a web form, there you probably want to have a way to collect the errors and associate them with fields. |
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| 19:54:27 | <mastarija> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/valor |
| 19:54:32 | <mastarija> | Rembane, my library |
| 19:54:45 | <mastarija> | I'm just working on some improvements and simplifications |
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| 19:55:22 | <dsal> | ` <*> checks username [nonempty, nonbollocks, nonshort]` |
| 19:55:34 | <mastarija> | :D |
| 19:55:53 | <Rembane> | mastarija: Cool! |
| 19:56:02 | <mastarija> | I'm adding alternative, and monad interface right now |
| 19:56:31 | <mastarija> | + some overloaded check to replace all that checks mapChecks check etc.. functions |
| 19:57:40 | <dsal> | mastarija: Have you looked at this one? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/validation |
| 19:57:49 | <dsal> | That's the one I used briefly and then stopped using |
| 19:58:49 | <mastarija> | Yes, I've checked out a few of them, but they were too annoying to use |
| 19:59:00 | <mastarija> | So I've made something to fit my tastes |
| 19:59:03 | <dsal> | Good, good. |
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| 19:59:27 | <mastarija> | I was more into "structured" validation, and working with records. |
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| 20:25:49 | <ixlun> | Is there a way to get a kind of intersperse concat, so that: a -> [[a]] -> [a] |
| 20:26:05 | <maerwald> | I can't believe I'm fixing stack bugs now. |
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| 20:26:21 | <ixlun> | e.g. intersperseConcat 0 [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]] = [1,2,3,0,4,5,6,0,7,8,9]? |
| 20:26:48 | <geekosaur> | :t intercalate |
| 20:26:49 | <lambdabot> | [a] -> [[a]] -> [a] |
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| 20:27:46 | <ixlun> | Aha |
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| 20:28:07 | <geekosaur> | > intercalate 0 [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]] = [1,2,3,0,4,5,6,0,7,8,9] |
| 20:28:07 | <geekosaur> | duh |
| 20:28:07 | <geekosaur> | > intercalate 0 [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]] |
| 20:28:09 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 20:28:09 | <lambdabot> | • No instance for (Num [Integer]) |
| 20:28:09 | <lambdabot> | arising from a use of ‘e_10123456789’ |
| 20:28:09 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:42: error: parse error on input ‘=’ |
| 20:28:10 | <Rembane> | Intergalactic planetary. |
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| 20:28:57 | <geekosaur> | > intercalate [0] [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]] |
| 20:28:58 | <lambdabot> | [1,2,3,0,4,5,6,0,7,8,9] |
| 20:29:04 | <geekosaur> | there we go |
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| 20:31:46 | <xerox> | :t intersperse |
| 20:31:47 | <lambdabot> | a -> [a] -> [a] |
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| 20:33:06 | <edrx> | sm: fantastic, thanks!!! =) |
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| 20:37:40 | <sm> | thanks 🙏🏻 maerwald! |
| 20:38:45 | <maerwald> | sm: well, so far they haven't merged any of my PRs... I guess they don't like me :p |
| 20:39:43 | <maerwald> | sm: maybe make some noise for me https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack/pull/5593 |
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| 20:39:52 | <maerwald> | like "omg, this is what we needed" |
| 20:40:16 | <sm> | maerwald: oh well, are you fixing bugs or proposing features ? |
| 20:40:26 | <maerwald> | both |
| 20:40:48 | <geekosaur> | not sure anyone over there cares about system-ghc: true |
| 20:40:51 | <maerwald> | I'm close before forking stack :> |
| 20:41:05 | <maerwald> | or rather: downstream patching |
| 20:41:13 | <sm> | accepting prs is not always easy or quick as you probably know |
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| 20:42:24 | <maerwald> | geekosaur: wouldn't surprise me if they don't wanna fix bugs for certain features |
| 20:45:23 | <sm> | also I don't know the state of stack maintenance but I bet it is nobody's job and probably negatively Snoyman's (in the way that you have to try to step back from projects to get other stuff done) |
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| 20:46:42 | <maerwald> | There might be other reasons at play here ;) |
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| 20:51:59 | <sm> | I am so not interested in those |
| 20:52:14 | <maerwald> | :) |
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| 20:53:25 | <maerwald> | sm: your user voice as someone heavily relying on `system-ghc: true` might still help |
| 20:53:45 | <sm> | i never use that |
| 20:53:55 | <maerwald> | they don't have to know |
| 20:54:13 | <maerwald> | help me out here |
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| 20:56:32 | <sm> | I'm sure your pr will get processed like all others, no need for special pleading surely |
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| 20:58:19 | <maerwald> | that's quite optimistic |
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| 21:02:32 | <sm> | I am frustrated by the usual negativity around what is in the end just another a great FOSS project so I think I'd better chill. I am optimistic :) |
| 21:02:50 | <sm> | see you later |
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| 21:10:49 | <maerwald> | subscribe to lkml for a month if you think haskell is negative :p |
| 21:11:08 | <yushyin> | :D |
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| 21:12:17 | <yushyin> | too much traffic anyway, wouldn't want to read all that |
| 21:12:55 | <maerwald> | wouldn't be surprised if there were actual suicide attempts following lkml threads... at least Linus once talked about a case where he very harshly rejected a patch of someone who turned out to be suicidal |
| 21:13:19 | <maerwald> | oddly, his conclusion wasn't to be less of an a**, but to reject patches earlier |
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| 22:22:46 | <juri_> | i used to read all of lkml. it really does make haskell seem friendly. |
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| 23:29:18 | <phaazon> | hey; anyone here with write access to the time package to approve a PR of mine (and eventually release on crates.io? :D) https://github.com/haskell/unix/pull/194 |
| 23:29:23 | <phaazon> | this is blocking me from using the latest warp |
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| 23:32:43 | <Axman6> | I assume you mean the unix package :) |
| 23:33:02 | <Axman6> | phaazon: can you use --allow-newer temporarily? |
| 23:33:20 | <phaazon> | Axman6: I mean warp |
| 23:33:37 | <phaazon> | because it depends on that, which prevents me from using the time I want :( |
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| 23:33:45 | <phaazon> | (so I had to downgrade warp :( ) |
| 23:33:54 | <phaazon> | Axman6: --allow-newer, hm |
| 23:34:43 | <phaazon> | not sure it’s a good idea though |
| 23:34:52 | <phaazon> | I’ve never really used that flag :P |
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| 23:36:01 | <Axman6> | if it works, it works. |
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| 23:38:59 | <phaazon> | well, I don’t really know what it does |
| 23:39:09 | <phaazon> | so I’d rather stick around simple concepts such as upgrading PVP ranges :D |
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| 23:40:07 | <Axman6> | I'm confused, your PR is against the unix package, not the time package, so why do you need someone with access to the time package? |
| 23:40:46 | <monochrom> | Use concurrency. Find out what --allow-newer does while the upgrade path is waiting. |
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| 23:40:57 | <myShoggoth> | I'm looking for a project lead volunteer for our open source volunteering platform (so meta): https://discourse.haskell.org/t/seeking-a-project-lead-for-matchmaker/2799 |
| 23:41:46 | <monochrom> | But I can see a variant of https://xkcd.com/303/ |
| 23:42:11 | <monochrom> | "Hey get back to work!" "Waiting on PR approval!" "OK carry on!" |
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| 23:44:05 | <phaazon> | Axman6: oh yeah the “write access” I meant haskell/unix, sorry |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-07-26.