Logs on 2021-07-27 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:23:30 | <arkho> | As a Haskell newb, should I read the Haskell Report? |
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| 01:24:16 | <sclv> | arkho: depends how comfortable you are with bnf grammer, specs, etc in general |
| 01:24:33 | <sclv> | if you are, then the report can be helpful -- if not, it might be a bit dense and you could be better off reading other things |
| 01:24:48 | <sclv> | I _do_ suggest reading the report's version of the haskell prelude, because it is simple and idiomatic |
| 01:24:51 | <geekosaur> | I would say no, formal language reports are rarely a good way to get to know a language unless you are fairly experienced with those kinds of reports |
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| 01:25:28 | <sclv> | there are lots of intro books (some free) linked from the haskell homepage |
| 01:25:30 | <sclv> | ?where documentation |
| 01:25:31 | <lambdabot> | I know nothing about documentation. |
| 01:25:48 | <sclv> | oh her |
| 01:25:50 | <sclv> | er |
| 01:25:52 | <sclv> | ?where docs |
| 01:25:52 | <lambdabot> | https://www.haskell.org/documentation/ |
| 01:25:57 | <sclv> | ?botsnack |
| 01:25:57 | <lambdabot> | :) |
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| 01:57:26 | <smtnet3> | cute |
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| 02:16:00 | <aegon> | holy balls guys, i just got hasktorch working with rocm and it is blazing fast, going to make a post about perf next weekend or the one after |
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| 03:40:43 | <Cajun> | rocm = Radeon Open Compute and hasktorch is the pytorch equivalent? |
| 03:41:01 | <Cajun> | hasktorch does look interesting, havent heard of that before |
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| 04:14:42 | <eltonpinto> | yea, hasktorch uses pytorch's tensor library |
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| 04:21:32 | <Cajun> | i read that it uses the underlying C++ library that pytorch also uses, i assume thats what you mean lol |
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| 04:22:38 | <eltonpinto> | yes, that is correct. it has bindings to the underlying c++ library |
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| 04:36:27 | <Arahael> | Is it possible, with proto-lens, to have the `Message msg` types converted to JSON in a generic fashion? (They do not use GHC.Generics) |
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| 04:37:38 | <Arahael> | If so, what should I be looking at to achieve it? |
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| 04:41:17 | <dsal> | The descriptor is available, so it should be relatively straightforward to generate a JSON representation. |
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| 05:08:04 | <Arahael> | dsal: Could you elaborate? |
| 05:08:53 | <dsal> | Not very much unfortunately. I've only used the proto stuff for proto directly. I only know about the descriptor stuff because I stuffed them into the library: https://github.com/google/proto-lens/commits?author=dustin |
| 05:09:12 | <dsal> | But theoretically, for a given message type, you can look up the descriptor which will tell you the fields and then you can generate a ToJSON from that. |
| 05:09:33 | <Arahael> | dsal: What I can't figure out is how to get the values given a FieldDescriptor. |
| 05:09:51 | <Arahael> | The field names themselves are the easy bit. |
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| 05:17:16 | <dsal> | I see. I've not used this lib in a year or so. It looks like the answer is in Message, but I don't have any protos to poke around with. It's possible the answer isn't there since you're expected to use lens to access all the field data, but it's been a while. It looks like digging around in the Message module should have the answer, though. |
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| 05:18:11 | <codelegend> | ``` |
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| 05:19:44 | <codelegend> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/wf5VMlDI |
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| 05:21:02 | <codelegend> | I was writing something using ST, and this failed to typecheck. Can someone explain why? The error says `No instance for (MArray (STUArray s) Int (ST s1))`, I don't understand why it assumes the states are different (s and s1) |
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| 05:22:28 | <codelegend> | updated paste with the error: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/govHGUlu |
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| 05:34:40 | <c_wraith> | short answer: you need ScopedTypeVariables |
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| 05:35:07 | <c_wraith> | slightly longer answer - without that extension, type variables in different type ascriptions are assumed to always be different |
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| 05:36:50 | <c_wraith> | So the two different s variables on line 7? They're in the same type, so they're the same s. But they're different from the s on line 5 or the s on line 8 |
| 05:38:31 | <Arahael> | dsal: Yeah, sadly for me, poking in it seems a bit of a rabbit hole for me. I consider myself good at Haskell, but I'm still frankly still a novice. |
| 05:40:33 | <dsal> | Arahael: Yeah, it'll take some digging. It's a bit late for me. I understand the rabbit hole, though. Those two changes I made were for a similar excursion. I was surprised the functionality was missing. I would be less surprised if more functionality were missing. |
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| 05:41:40 | <Arahael> | dsal: Not supporting Generics was a deliberate design decision from what I can tell from the issue tracker. |
| 05:41:56 | <Arahael> | dsal: Though perhaps you should get some sleep. :) I'm at work, myself, and work is Swift, not Haskell. :( |
| 05:42:06 | <codelegend> | c_wraith Ah okay. So I was reading the wiki on ScopedTypeVariables (https://wiki.haskell.org/Scoped_type_variables), and I don't really understand the example. It seems to claim that `b` is a free variable in the third case. But if that is the case here, how does it ensure all the `s` are the same? |
| 05:42:40 | <dsal> | Arahael: yeah, that's a good idea. I have no excuse to still be sitting here. Didn't work on any of my own problems. heh 'night |
| 05:43:02 | <c_wraith> | codelegend: that example is really confusing. It doesn't explain *why* each case works the way it does. |
| 05:43:07 | <Arahael> | Ha. :) Lovely thing about side personal projects: There's no deadline! It'll still be here next week! |
| 05:43:12 | <Arahael> | dsal: G'night! |
| 05:43:35 | <c_wraith> | codelegend: the important thing is that to actually scope a type variable, you need to use an explicit forall to introduce it |
| 05:43:43 | <c_wraith> | codelegend: the third example on that page doesn't do that |
| 05:43:59 | <c_wraith> | The other two examples do |
| 05:44:24 | <codelegend> | Ah okay, I think I get it now (sort of). I'll play around with some more examples and see. Thanks a lot! |
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| 08:45:28 | <mastarija> | Say that I have a type `MyType i m v`, and that type can be a functor on either i or v, how would I write an instance for functor over i? |
| 08:45:42 | <mastarija> | V is easy, instance Functor (MyType i m v) |
| 08:46:02 | <mastarija> | * instance Functor (MyType i m) |
| 08:46:24 | <mastarija> | But what about i? Can I use some type family to "swap" the arguments? |
| 08:48:42 | <thomasjm[m]> | mastarija: probably just write out the `fmap` instance explicitly? you might want https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/Data-Bifunctor.html |
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| 08:49:22 | <mastarija> | thomasjm[m], a... but my type is not a Bifunctor |
| 08:49:37 | <mastarija> | It's either a functor on i, or a functor on v |
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| 08:50:03 | <lortabac> | mastarija: since you can't have 2 Functor instances for the same type, you need to define a newtype with a different variable order |
| 08:50:40 | <mastarija> | lortabac, hm.. yes, I was hoping there could be some trick |
| 08:50:59 | <lortabac> | mastarija: how would you select which instance you want? |
| 08:51:16 | <mastarija> | Didn't think about that :D |
| 08:52:16 | <deejaytee> | mastarija: could you explain a bit more about the underlying structure, and why that means that it's either one functor or the other? |
| 08:52:55 | <deejaytee> | I don't doubt such a thing is possible, I'm just having trouble thinking of an example |
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| 08:53:15 | <mastarija> | deejaytee, it's a bit complex, but basically I have a type like either (a bit more complex) |
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| 08:53:46 | <mastarija> | So I might want to fmap over left or right |
| 08:54:00 | <lortabac> | isn't it the definition of a Bifunctor? |
| 08:54:06 | <mastarija> | No |
| 08:54:12 | <mastarija> | It can be |
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| 08:54:17 | <mastarija> | But I don't want a bifunctor |
| 08:54:29 | <lortabac> | ok, you want it to be a Functor in both cases |
| 08:54:46 | <mastarija> | I want just a functor over a, and just a functor over b in `Either a b` |
| 08:55:12 | <deejaytee> | well Either is a Bifunctor - it's just that lmap and rmap don't do anything |
| 08:55:24 | <deejaytee> | But if your heart is set on fmap, yeah a newtype wrapper is what you'll need |
| 08:55:56 | <mastarija> | Although, now that I think about selecting the right instance, I guess that function type could be the "clue" to select the right instance |
| 08:56:04 | <deejaytee> | (*it's just that first and second don't do anything unless you're on the correct constructor) |
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| 08:56:23 | <mastarija> | Problem is, I want to have different Monad instances as well :D |
| 08:56:29 | <mastarija> | And applicatives |
| 08:56:42 | <mastarija> | So bifunctor doesn't help |
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| 08:57:45 | <tomsmeding> | % map (Data.Bifunctor.first (+1)) [Left 2, Right 2] |
| 08:57:46 | <yahb> | tomsmeding: [Left 3,Right 2] |
| 08:58:04 | <deejaytee> | Yeah for your monad instance you're definitely going to want a newtype, otherwise I wager it'll be difficult to tell `do` which instance to pick, even if you find a trick to get the functor & applicative instances working |
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| 09:00:19 | <mastarija> | I guess, but one can dream :D |
| 09:01:18 | <deejaytee> | unless you're too cool for do notation, in which case: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bifunctors-5.5.11/docs/Data-Bifunctor-Functor.html#t:BifunctorMonad |
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| 09:29:25 | <tomsmeding> | why does that type class use 't' as the monad type, instead of 'm' |
| 09:29:52 | <ixlun> | What's the best way to implement a fast circular buffer of fixed sized? |
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| 09:30:25 | <ixlun> | So as you add one element at the head, an element gets dropped at the tail |
| 09:30:44 | <tomsmeding> | ixlun: should it be functional, or can it be in ST? |
| 09:30:48 | <deejaytee> | tomsmeding: I assume because it "transforms" the underlying bifunctor |
| 09:31:00 | <ixlun> | Can be in ST |
| 09:31:09 | <tomsmeding> | deejaytee: then I'd expect 't' to be a monad transformer :p |
| 09:31:18 | <tomsmeding> | but it doesn't matter anyway |
| 09:31:27 | <ixlun> | or IO |
| 09:31:29 | <tomsmeding> | ixlun: then just an STArray, right? or the vector equivalent |
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| 09:31:37 | <tomsmeding> | not going to get a faster one |
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| 09:31:54 | <deejaytee> | agree that I'd expect a transformer, agree that it doesn't matter :P |
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| 09:32:28 | <ixlun> | Right, so I'm looking at Data.Vector.Unboxed.Mutable |
| 09:32:41 | <ixlun> | That sound about right? |
| 09:32:50 | <tomsmeding> | yeah |
| 09:32:58 | <tomsmeding> | if your data type can be unboxed, that is |
| 09:33:08 | <tomsmeding> | I wrote this at some point for a different #haskell'er: https://gist.github.com/tomsmeding/1a9f9f6d64ab60699751c9bdeb99bc81 |
| 09:33:21 | <tomsmeding> | uses array, not vector, but it should be similar |
| 09:34:11 | tomsmeding | isn't sure why that declares DataKinds, it doesn't use it |
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| 09:35:42 | <ixlun> | Right, that's perfect, I'll try and convert that to Vector code and see how I get on. Thanks for the help tomsmeding ! |
| 09:36:26 | <tomsmeding> | ixlun: FYI the name is because the person I wrote it for used 'fog' as a nick :p |
| 09:36:52 | <ixlun> | Haha, I was wondering if there was some subtle joke with the name |
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| 10:14:19 | <pmk> | I have a function f :: t -> Either a String and I would like to do something like "<" ++ f x ++ ">". I am not sure how to map (++) through Either. I've tried (++) <$> Right "<" <*> f x <*> Right ">" but the second (<*>) rightly complains since its first argument is not a function. I probably could write a function to do it with do notation but is there an idiomatic way to accomplish this using Applicative? |
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| 10:18:21 | <sshine_> | > let f x = pure (show x) :: Either a String; between l r m = l <> m <> r in between "<" ">" <$> f 42 |
| 10:18:23 | <lambdabot> | Right "<42>" |
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| 10:20:13 | <pmk> | Thanks sshine_! |
| 10:20:26 | <deejaytee> | Using <&> from Data.Functor, you can preserve infix placement if you *really* want to :P |
| 10:20:31 | <deejaytee> | e.g. ("<" ++) <$> Right "a" <&> (++ ">") |
| 10:20:38 | <sshine_> | > concat <$> sequence [Right "<", Right "42", Right ">"] |
| 10:20:40 | <lambdabot> | Right "<42>" |
| 10:22:10 | <sshine_> | :t sequence |
| 10:22:12 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a) |
| 10:22:31 | <sshine_> | > sequence [Just "hello", Nothing, Just "world"] |
| 10:22:33 | <lambdabot> | Nothing |
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| 10:22:45 | <sshine_> | > sequence [Just "hello", Just " ", Just "world"] |
| 10:22:46 | <lambdabot> | Just ["hello"," ","world"] |
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| 10:23:12 | <sshine_> | > concat ["hello", " ", "world"] |
| 10:23:15 | <lambdabot> | "hello world" |
| 10:23:23 | <sshine_> | > fmap concat (Just ["hello", " ", "world"]) |
| 10:23:25 | <lambdabot> | Just "hello world" |
| 10:23:37 | <sshine_> | :t fmap concat . sequence |
| 10:23:39 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Monad f) => t (f [a]) -> f [a] |
| 10:23:48 | <dexterfoo> | Is there something like memcpy for Data.Vector.Unboxed.Mutable? |
| 10:24:03 | <sshine_> | :t fmap concat . sequence :: [Either a String] -> Either a [String] |
| 10:24:04 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 10:24:04 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match type ‘Char’ with ‘[Char]’ |
| 10:24:05 | <lambdabot> | Expected type: [Either a1 String] -> Either a1 [String] |
| 10:24:11 | <sshine_> | er :) |
| 10:24:21 | <pmk> | hehe :) |
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| 10:24:49 | <pmk> | I think fmap concat . sequence is what I was looking for (or pretty close to it). Thanks! |
| 10:25:03 | <sshine_> | :t fmap concat . sequence :: [Either a String] -> Either a String -- there |
| 10:25:04 | <lambdabot> | [Either a String] -> Either a String |
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| 10:28:15 | <euouae> | Hello |
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| 10:28:54 | <euouae> | How do I use haddock to comment individual arguments? I am not sure how to format it. For example, now I use this style: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/jDqAB5mL |
| 10:29:15 | <euouae> | Notice that I have to place :: on a newline so that -> always matches up. If I don't do this, my editor does not enter the right amount of spaces (I have to tab it myself) |
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| 10:31:47 | <tomsmeding> | euouae: looks like the "standard style", for as far as there's one https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.14.0.0/docs/src/System.IO.html#line-458 |
| 10:32:10 | <euouae> | do you know which formatter follows that style? |
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| 10:32:19 | tomsmeding | doesn't use a formatter |
| 10:32:20 | <euouae> | The one formatter I just tried replaces my -- ^ with newlines and -- |
| 10:32:21 | <euouae> | -- | |
| 10:32:35 | <euouae> | You don't? Oh I love them! |
| 10:32:37 | <tomsmeding> | can you post what its output is? |
| 10:32:46 | <tomsmeding> | does it put the -- | before the argument instead of after it? |
| 10:32:53 | <euouae> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/U2AKRT6Q |
| 10:33:03 | <tomsmeding> | that looks horrible to me :p |
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| 10:33:48 | <euouae> | I agree |
| 10:33:52 | <euouae> | It's not too great |
| 10:33:57 | <tomsmeding> | so I guess your question is: which formatter preserves "-> Int -- ^ documentation" formatting for function arguments |
| 10:34:15 | <euouae> | What I can say is that I prefer a formatter over custom stylistic stuff |
| 10:36:36 | <tomsmeding> | but it's all opinion anyway |
| 10:36:41 | <tomsmeding> | which formatting is "nicest" |
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| 10:37:33 | <tomsmeding> | euouae: a regular here in this channel expresses this sentiment https://twitter.com/comerijn/status/1257804634833420292 |
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| 10:38:39 | <euouae> | Doesn't matter what they think |
| 10:39:09 | <euouae> | I know I waste time and energy overthinking it and it's better spent elsewhere |
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| 10:57:23 | <Arahael> | It's remarkable how quickly one gets used to using lenses. |
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| 10:59:18 | <Rembane> | And then gets unused to them again after not using them for a while. |
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| 11:01:58 | <Arahael> | Indeed. |
| 11:02:24 | <Arahael> | I should re-learn the whole` Lens s t a b` thing again. |
| 11:02:41 | <Arahael> | (But not today) |
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| 11:10:46 | <arkanoid> | would you suggesto to learn error handling via Control.Exception or prefer Data.Either where left is custom Error type |
| 11:11:46 | <Rembane> | arkanoid: I would go for Data.Either as long as possible |
| 11:12:37 | <Arahael> | arkanoid: I'd use Control.Exception for seriously exceptional cases. |
| 11:13:53 | <arkanoid> | Arahael: like when the program should really crash but it may be a library so it's up to the caller to decide what to do? |
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| 11:14:08 | <arkanoid> | Rembane: thanks! |
| 11:14:15 | <Arahael> | arkanoid: I think so. |
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| 11:15:38 | <Rembane> | arkanoid: np! |
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| 11:16:44 | <arkanoid> | is there anything else I should consider for this topic apart from Control.Exception, Data.Either and Data.Maybe and obviously Monad pattern? |
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| 11:30:59 | <merijn> | Simple heuristic: Either for library interfaces, exceptions for within my own program |
| 11:31:11 | <merijn> | i.e. exceptions across package boundaries should be opt-in |
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| 11:47:33 | <Arahael> | Hmm. With lenses, I want to do `aVar & aField .~ aValue`, except I *don't* want the field set if aValue is Nothing. What should I do? |
| 11:47:55 | <Arahael> | (ie, aValue is a `Maybe a`, and I want it to set the 'a' value if it exists) |
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| 11:48:52 | <Arahael> | merijn: That's fair - I remember getting surprised that wreq, as an example, didn't seem to work weirdly - turned out it was raising an exception. :) Using Either would have made that very explicit. (Though I think it was using Either, so I was quite confused) |
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| 11:51:21 | <Arahael> | I'm thinking of defining a new operator: .~? This sets the specified field to a if the RHS is "Just a", otherwise does nothing. |
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| 11:57:13 | <Arahael> | Hmm, that was too easy. |
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| 12:02:23 | <jippiedoe> | Arahael: if it's not a common enough pattern to want a `.~?`, you could use `aVar & aField %~ (`fromMaybe` aValue)` instead |
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| 12:05:25 | <Arahael> | jippiedoe: It's common enough, but that looks even easier! Except that replaces the value in either case. |
| 12:06:14 | <Arahael> | jippiedoe: I went with `a .~? (Just b) = a .~ b` and `a .~? Nothing = id` |
| 12:06:40 | <Arahael> | (Right? That `fromMaybe` isn't preserving the input, isn't it?) |
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| 12:06:47 | <jippiedoe> | What do you mean with 'it replaces the value in either case'? |
| 12:06:58 | <Arahael> | jippiedoe: What does it do if aValue is Nothing? |
| 12:07:23 | <jippiedoe> | fromMaybe d x = case x of {Nothing -> d;Just v -> v} |
| 12:07:47 | <jippiedoe> | fromMaybe a Nothing = a |
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| 12:09:19 | <Arahael> | Oh, yeah. I was confused. |
| 12:09:30 | <Arahael> | Thanks - the user-provided function provides the original value. |
| 12:10:02 | <Arahael> | Hmm, which means it becomes explicitly set? |
| 12:10:36 | Arahael | thinks it doesn't make a difference - the lens don't distinguish, he thinks. |
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| 12:41:43 | <tomsmeding> | Arahael: what about `aVar & aField %~ (aValue <|>)` |
| 12:42:03 | <tomsmeding> | disclaimer: I have no idea about lenses, but with regards to Maybe, that should have the semantics that you describe I think? |
| 12:42:24 | <tomsmeding> | ( (<|>) from Alternative in Control.Applicative) |
| 12:42:35 | <Arahael> | tomsmeding: That's a variant of what jippiedoe suggested, I think. That works also, I think. |
| 12:42:47 | <Arahael> | So I have three options now. :D And I've now learnt about %~ |
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| 12:45:11 | <tomsmeding> | oh wait 'aField' is not a Maybe but just the value itself? Then yes, fromMaybe :p |
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| 12:45:47 | <jippiedoe> | Ah, I interpreted the field to be of type `a` that you want to replace if the replacement exists, whereas tomsmeding's suggestion works if the field is of type `Maybe a` |
| 12:45:54 | <tomsmeding> | ^ |
| 12:46:10 | <jippiedoe> | and while I was typing I didn't see you saw it too already :) |
| 12:46:23 | tomsmeding | high-5's jippiedoe |
| 12:48:16 | <Arahael> | Ah, interesting. |
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| 13:02:39 | <xerox> | :t fmap . const |
| 13:02:41 | <lambdabot> | Functor f => b -> f a -> f b |
| 13:02:49 | <xerox> | I'd do it like that |
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| 13:03:28 | <Taneb> | :t (<$) |
| 13:03:30 | <lambdabot> | Functor f => a -> f b -> f a |
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| 13:18:46 | <arkanoid> | where I can find good examples of simple haskell programs that can show me a picture of IO, error handling and Monads in general? I keep finding snippets of different topics, but not real programs |
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| 13:20:50 | <merijn> | shellcheck? pandoc? |
| 13:20:58 | <merijn> | xmonad, I suppose? |
| 13:22:20 | <tomsmeding> | not sure those count as "simple" :p |
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| 13:25:30 | <[exa]> | arkanoid: we can write some for you, if you have a topic |
| 13:26:19 | <[exa]> | arkanoid: a deceiving problem in haskell is that "simple" usually means "oneliner" which people sometimes refuse to accept as a valid example program :D |
| 13:29:05 | <arkanoid> | shellcheck and xmonad "simple" :D for simple I mean classic example of small game like tic tac toe (with input and output). Just random guessing. I prefer a good example of haskell code (yet doing IO) than a specific task |
| 13:29:48 | <merijn> | tic-tac-toe sounds much harder than shellcheck, tbh |
| 13:30:43 | <[exa]> | arkanoid: for tic-tac-toe, check out Brick library (or maybe Gloss) |
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| 13:31:03 | <__monty__> | Error handling isn't very common in Haskell fwiw. So you're not likely to find it in short examples. IME |
| 13:31:03 | <[exa]> | iirc Brick even has some simple game in demos, it might have been snake or something |
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| 14:35:06 | <dsal> | > [Nothing, Just 3] & each . _Just .~ 1 -- Arahael |
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| 14:35:08 | <lambdabot> | [Nothing,Just 1] |
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| 14:36:12 | <dsal> | Oh wait, you're doing it the other way around? |
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| 14:43:24 | <Guest1981> | I have a ghci question. when I run "x :: Int; x = 1" then ":t x" I get "error: Variable not in scope: x" |
| 14:44:05 | <Guest1981> | Shouldn't x be in scope? |
| 14:44:59 | <Orbstheorem> | Works in my shell 🤔 |
| 14:45:27 | <geekosaur> | works here too |
| 14:45:58 | <Guest1981> | Everything I can see online says it should work, but it doesn't |
| 14:46:40 | <Orbstheorem> | If you try to print the variable, does it not work either? |
| 14:48:48 | <Guest1981> | <interactive>:105:7: error: Variable not in scope: x |
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| 14:50:02 | <Orbstheorem> | That 105 is curious, how are you using ghci? |
| 14:50:25 | <Guest1981> | Oh, that's just because I had run quite a few other commands before. |
| 14:50:49 | <Orbstheorem> | have you tried in a fresh repl? |
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| 14:51:09 | <Orbstheorem> | Maybe you were in some scope when you originally bound it. |
| 14:51:20 | <Guest1981> | Hah, so.. without -fobject-code this works. With -fobject-code it's never in scope |
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| 14:51:29 | <Guest1981> | In a fresh ghci |
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| 14:52:28 | <geekosaur> | I can reproduce that locally |
| 14:52:38 | <geekosaur> | interesting |
| 14:52:54 | <Guest1981> | Prelude> x :: Int; x = 1 |
| 14:52:54 | <Guest1981> | Prelude> x |
| 14:52:54 | <Guest1981> | 1 |
| 14:52:54 | <Guest1981> | Prelude> :set -fobject-code |
| 14:52:57 | <Guest1981> | Prelude> y :: Int; y = 1 |
| 14:53:00 | <Guest1981> | Prelude> y |
| 14:53:04 | <Guest1981> | <interactive>:5:1: error: Variable not in scope: y |
| 14:53:07 | <Guest1981> | |
| 14:53:10 | <Guest1981> | Is this intended behavior? |
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| 15:03:09 | <merijn> | Yes, no, maybe |
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| 15:03:45 | <merijn> | ghci never really behaved like a normal source file, but has been incrementally hacked up over the years to act more like a source file |
| 15:03:52 | <geekosaur> | I can see how it might be happening, and suspect it wouldn't be readily fixable |
| 15:04:27 | <geekosaur> | -fobject-code is really meant to work with something preloaded and probably doesn'[t interact very well with, er, interaction |
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| 15:05:56 | <geekosaur> | and yes, ghci is a hyuge mess |
| 15:06:41 | <merijn> | ghci is great for toying with stuff |
| 15:07:11 | <merijn> | But don't expect reasonable behaviour on all inputs that happen to be syntactically valid at the file level |
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| 15:08:02 | <merijn> | tbh, I'd mostly recommend only using it for evaluating expressions, not really anything resembling "interactive programming" like some people do in python's repl/notebooks |
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| 15:09:09 | <Guest1981> | Is this behavior documented anywhere? |
| 15:09:16 | <geekosaur> | doubt it |
| 15:10:49 | <merijn> | I still consider the change to ghci to make it behave more like a top level file a mistake >.> |
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| 15:13:01 | <Guest1981> | Thanks. I'll file a bug. |
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| 15:18:29 | <dexterfoo> | is there a list of all of the Haskell operators, so that I can choose one that isn't in use yet? |
| 15:19:45 | <Hecate> | dexterfoo: hoogle |
| 15:20:11 | <geekosaur> | I suspect that'd get you an argument. like, some people would count lens operators |
| 15:20:17 | <Hecate> | dexterfoo: just realise that operators are just functions, they're usually overloadable |
| 15:20:22 | <[exa]> | dexterfoo: good luck, really. :D |
| 15:22:23 | <dexterfoo> | According to Hoogle (>>>>) is not used, so I will take it |
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| 15:26:10 | <dsal> | It only has to not be taken in your project. |
| 15:27:11 | geekosaur | used >.> — feel free |
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| 15:33:21 | <merijn> | Asking for "what operators aren't used yet" is like asking for "a number nobody has thought of yet" :p |
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| 15:36:31 | <davean> | merijn: no one has thought of most numbers yet |
| 15:36:51 | <DigitalKiwi> | ur moms |
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| 15:38:48 | <Taneb> | davean: and most possible operators are still available for use |
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| 15:44:16 | <zzz> | is something like `(take n &&& drop n) ls` optimized to avoid 2n operations? |
| 15:44:57 | <xerox> | :t splitAt |
| 15:44:58 | <lambdabot> | Int -> [a] -> ([a], [a]) |
| 15:45:08 | <glguy> | zzz: I would expect not |
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| 15:45:49 | <zzz> | ok thanks |
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| 15:48:52 | <merijn> | davean: Sure |
| 15:49:09 | <merijn> | davean: But the second you think of one, nothing stops anyone else :p |
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| 15:49:57 | <monochrom> | "what functions names aren't used yet" is the perfect equivalent. |
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| 17:28:09 | <lechner> | Hi, is there an elegant way to deal with several Maybe values in a row without increasing the indentation in the source code but while reporting errors properly (i.e no fromJust)? Thanks! |
| 17:28:47 | <geekosaur> | use the Monad instance? |
| 17:28:55 | <monochrom> | >>= |
| 17:29:21 | <lechner> | i am so new. is there an example on the web? |
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| 17:39:20 | <sm> | lechner: write a do block, where each line extracts the next Just value with <-. If any of those fail, the whole block evaluates to Nothing |
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| 17:40:17 | <lechner> | That's longhand for this, right? "By definition, when the first argument to >>= is Nothing, it just returns Nothing while ignoring whatever function it is given." https://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Understanding_monads/Maybe |
| 17:42:59 | <Cale> | do-notation is a shorthand syntax for a chain of uses of (>>=) |
| 17:43:21 | <Cale> | @undo do { u <- x; v <- y; return (f u v) } |
| 17:43:22 | <lambdabot> | x >>= \ u -> y >>= \ v -> return (f u v) |
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| 17:43:56 | <lechner> | thanks! i am making baby steps |
| 17:44:02 | <Cale> | and so in the case of Maybe, you're allowed to have x and y be Maybe values there |
| 17:44:16 | <Cale> | and then u and v will be the contents of the Just constructor in the case that they're both Just |
| 17:44:51 | <Cale> | So it's a good way to unpack a bunch of Maybes and produce Nothing if any of them happens to be Nothing |
| 17:45:46 | <Cale> | (the do-block as a whole will be a Maybe value in the case that x and y are) |
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| 17:47:14 | <Cale> | There are also a bunch of functions which work with any instance of Monad, that specialise to possibly-useful functions on Maybe |
| 17:47:17 | <Cale> | :t sequence |
| 17:47:18 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a) |
| 17:47:36 | <Cale> | (That one is even more general now...) |
| 17:47:51 | <Cale> | Well, if you just think of it as (Monad m) => [m a] -> m [a] |
| 17:47:55 | <Cale> | for Maybe, that becomes |
| 17:48:01 | <Cale> | [Maybe a] -> Maybe [a] |
| 17:48:20 | <lechner> | thanks! my code is slowly gaining style. haskell is amazing. i already found several potential bugs in my Perl code, which i am translating |
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| 17:48:46 | <Cale> | i.e. take a list of Maybe things, and see if they're all Just, if so, then you get Just of a list of the contents, if any was Nothing, you get Nothing |
| 17:49:05 | <DigitalKiwi> | monochrom: https://twitter.com/krisajenkins/status/1420022268177027090?s=20 |
| 17:50:02 | <lechner> | Cale: thanks! |
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| 17:52:45 | <Cale> | DigitalKiwi: I don't know how deterministic twitter's "More Tweets" section is, so https://twitter.com/d6/status/1419885183793344512 was pretty funny |
| 17:52:53 | DigitalKiwi | takes them to clout court |
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| 17:55:42 | <DigitalKiwi> | Cale: i follow d6 and this is the first time i've seen it lol |
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| 17:57:21 | <lechner> | Hi, how can a function that returns a "Maybe (IO ()) perform an IO task, please? |
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| 17:57:54 | <Cale> | So, it might give you an action you could run to perform some IO, and it might not |
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| 17:58:32 | <Cale> | The most straightforward thing you should understand first is just to pattern match on it with case |
| 17:58:48 | <Cale> | case theMaybeIO of |
| 17:58:55 | <Cale> | Nothing -> ... do something else ... |
| 17:59:05 | <Cale> | Just x -> x |
| 17:59:22 | <Cale> | If you want to do nothing in the Nothing case, then you could write return () |
| 17:59:33 | <kmein> | :t maybe (return ()) id |
| 17:59:34 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => Maybe (m ()) -> m () |
| 17:59:35 | <Cale> | (which is an action that does nothing) |
| 17:59:44 | <kmein> | (for a one-liner) |
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| 18:00:49 | <Cale> | Yeah, or in fact, that sequence function I mentioned earlier would also work because Maybe is Traversable |
| 18:00:59 | <lechner> | that's exactly what i tried to avoid with the Maybe monad. i kind of came from there: https://dpaste.org/SL7E |
| 18:01:01 | <Cale> | sequence :: Maybe (IO a) -> IO (Maybe a) |
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| 18:01:34 | <Cale> | There's also a version called sequence_ which drops the result |
| 18:01:36 | <Cale> | :t sequence_ |
| 18:01:37 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m () |
| 18:02:06 | <lechner> | it's probably hard to see in the diff, but i replaced the "case of"s with <- |
| 18:02:14 | <Cale> | So, t = Maybe and m = IO will get you a thing that does nothing if the Maybe is Nothing, and executes the action if it's Just of some action |
| 18:02:40 | <lechner> | that's what i need |
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| 18:04:17 | <Cale> | I honestly don't mind your original case expressions though (but I would usually avoid defining the scrutinee with let immediately prior) |
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| 18:04:43 | <Cale> | However, it depends on how we expect the program to change over time |
| 18:05:14 | <lechner> | it will change because i am learning |
| 18:05:18 | <Cale> | If you end up wanting to handle the failure cases more nicely, you'll probably end up replacing the return () in the failure case with something else, and then there won't necessarily be a shorthand. |
| 18:05:41 | <Cale> | (at least, not one which is more readable than a case expression would be) |
| 18:06:19 | <lechner> | i don't actually need to handle them, I don't think, but I will hold onto the case expressions for now |
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| 18:06:39 | <lechner> | what did you mean with scrutinee plesae? |
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| 18:07:09 | <lechner> | the "let"s that is |
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| 18:07:28 | <monochrom> | In "case foo x of ...", the scrutinee is "foo x". |
| 18:07:54 | <monochrom> | The victim of pattern matching. |
| 18:08:46 | <monochrom> | DigitalKiwi: Haha congrats |
| 18:08:50 | <lechner> | yes, that was kind of pointless. i see it now |
| 18:10:13 | <lechner> | monochrom Cale: so elegant. thank you! |
| 18:10:21 | <DigitalKiwi> | <butterfly meme> is this a thunk? |
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| 18:11:00 | <DigitalKiwi> | the previously unevalutaed lazy joke has been evaluated |
| 18:11:29 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 18:11:48 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/lchaskell/2021/07/26?id=112114#trid112114 for anyone lost about wtf we're talking about lol |
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| 18:39:27 | <lechner> | Hi, what's is the z0 in my function's "ZMQ z0 ()" return type, please? This is inside the ZMQ monad. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/zeromq4-haskell |
| 18:40:30 | <Rembane> | lechner: Probably the rest of the monad transformer stack. |
| 18:40:38 | <Rembane> | lechner: Do you have some example code? |
| 18:41:07 | <geekosaur> | that said, when ghc appends a number to a type it usually means you forgot to connect something up, so it's inventing a new type |
| 18:41:23 | <Rembane> | Yes, and also typed holes are great. |
| 18:41:32 | <Cale> | The maintainer should really build and upload the documentation for that package separately |
| 18:41:52 | <lechner> | why did it FTB? |
| 18:42:07 | <Cale> | Probably the external library dependencies |
| 18:42:28 | <lechner> | Rembane: https://dpaste.org/STjO#L87 |
| 18:42:46 | <lechner> | geekosaur: I think i invented it! |
| 18:42:51 | <Cale> | Apparently, ZMQ is like ST, and so the "z" parameter is actually meaningless, it's just there to prevent you from using ZMQ sockets created by one session with another. |
| 18:43:17 | <lechner> | is see |
| 18:43:24 | <Cale> | runZMQ :: MonadIO m => (forall z. ZMQ z a) -> m a -- in order to use this, any occurrence of the "z" parameter can't occur in "a" |
| 18:44:30 | <Cale> | And so data structures which have a "z" in them can't be smuggled out in the result, (and even if you did somehow, e.g. by using an existential type, you still couldn't use them with another runZMQ, since there's effectively a new "z" each time. |
| 18:46:53 | <lechner> | i tried _ instead of z0 but GHC did not like it, and referred me to PartialTypeSignatures which i did not adopt |
| 18:47:17 | <Cale> | Yeah, if you want to use _'s in types, you have to turn on PartialTypeSignatures |
| 18:47:22 | <DigitalKiwi> | lechner is ghc |
| 18:47:46 | <Cale> | Any variable letter will do there, but I'd stick with the z that the library uses. |
| 18:47:57 | <DigitalKiwi> | that's why ghc is so slow sometimes; it has to ask lechner to type infer! |
| 18:48:04 | <lechner> | in the well-defined world of Haskell, how can i legally refer to a z0 that was never defined? |
| 18:48:13 | <Cale> | Well, what are you trying to do? |
| 18:48:37 | <lechner> | Just compile (TM) |
| 18:48:54 | <Cale> | Usually you will want to leave the z polymorphic, so writing just z there will do |
| 18:49:20 | <lechner> | okay |
| 18:49:29 | <Cale> | (in fact, if it became not-polymorphic, that would mean that you could never use the action) |
| 18:50:24 | <lechner> | i don't know what that means, but it sounds like something that could make me sleep poorly |
| 18:50:34 | <Cale> | When you have a ZMQ action which returns something like a socket, you'll have to ensure the z's match, like ZMQ z (Socket z) |
| 18:51:00 | <lechner> | i see |
| 18:51:23 | <Cale> | It's as though each time you use runZMQ, it gets to invent its own z type |
| 18:51:26 | <lechner> | what does the zero do then, please? |
| 18:51:44 | <lechner> | it means nothing? |
| 18:51:46 | <Cale> | and that prevents sockets and such from being created in one runZMQ and being used in another |
| 18:51:52 | <lechner> | yeah |
| 18:51:54 | <c_wraith> | z0 is just a name |
| 18:51:58 | <lechner> | that makes sense |
| 18:52:02 | <c_wraith> | It has no inherent meaning |
| 18:52:13 | <monochrom> | Every name has no meaning, actually. |
| 18:52:24 | <Cale> | Yeah, it's just an arbitrary variable, it doesn't really mean anything, but you can think of it as referring to the runZMQ session. |
| 18:53:18 | <Cale> | There's some context that runZMQ sets up, and we don't want sockets and such that are created with one context being used by another |
| 18:53:35 | <Cale> | and we're using a type system trick to prevent this |
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| 18:54:10 | <lechner> | does haskell know any other |
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| 19:00:22 | <monochrom> | Haskell doesn't want to be anthropomophized. |
| 19:01:06 | <lechner> | you are right; it is our trick |
| 19:02:56 | <c_wraith> | I don't think the joke works quite right with that wording. |
| 19:04:22 | <lechner> | sorry, bad joke. trying to cope with a learning curve |
| 19:04:22 | <c_wraith> | I meant monochrom's joke |
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| 19:05:01 | <c_wraith> | It can be vacuously true, as opposed to wording like "Haskell hates being anthropomorphized" |
| 19:05:44 | <monochrom> | Oh, that. |
| 19:06:26 | <c_wraith> | English and logic have a very weird intersection :) |
| 19:06:46 | <lechner> | they have one? |
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| 19:07:57 | <monochrom> | That would be a Church vs Curry thing. "X doesn't want Y" can be "type error, not even wrong". |
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| 19:08:48 | <c_wraith> | that is an option too. |
| 19:09:46 | <DigitalKiwi> | I heard that parallel lines actually do meet, but they are very discrete. |
| 19:10:00 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 19:27:07 | <lechner> | Hi, a question about $ vs () please. Why does this work liftIO $ putStrLn $ "Response from collector: " <> Lazy.unpack (Lazy.fromStrict acknowledgement) but this doesn't liftIO $ putStrLn $ "Response from collector: " <> Lazy.unpack $ Lazy.fromStrict acknowledgement |
| 19:27:58 | <monochrom> | Do you know the precedence level and associativity of $ ? Can you compare that with the precendence level of <> ? |
| 19:28:10 | <monochrom> | I think it's high time you find out. |
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| 19:29:13 | <monochrom> | It doesn't scale if every time you have $ and the nth operator you cannot be independent for the nth time. |
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| 19:29:56 | <Cale> | lechner: $ is just a function defined as f $ x = f x, but it's defined to bind as weakly as possible to its arguments, while normal function application binds more tightly than any infix operator could |
| 19:30:33 | <Cale> | (and also, it's specified to be right-associating, which I think is kind of a mistake, but it allows for that particular style of chaining) |
| 19:30:44 | <lechner> | okay i thought about it the wrong way. it seemed like "the buck stops here from the right" |
| 19:31:29 | <lechner> | actually, maybe that is still true |
| 19:31:52 | <lechner> | it's really right vs left like monochrom said |
| 19:31:53 | <Cale> | So, your second expression brackets like liftIO $ (putStrLn $ (("Response from collector: " <> Lazy.unpack) $ Lazy.fromStrict acknowledgement)) |
| 19:32:05 | <Cale> | and you can see the problem there with the Lazy.unpack not getting an argument |
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| 19:33:27 | <Cale> | Plain function application (whitespace) binds more tightly to its arguments than any infix operator possibly can. If you remember nothing else about how infix operators get parsed, that's probably the most important thing. |
| 19:34:19 | <lechner> | that's the exact opposite of $ then |
| 19:34:24 | <Cale> | right |
| 19:34:35 | <lechner> | no pun intended |
| 19:34:39 | <Cale> | Also, it's left-associating, so f x y z means ((f x) y) z |
| 19:34:57 | <lechner> | yeah i get that. wow. TIL thanks! |
| 19:35:07 | <Cale> | I do kind of wish that ($) associated to the left as well, since whenever you have f $ g $ h $ x you could always rewrite that as f . g . h $ x |
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| 19:35:35 | <lechner> | i wondered about that |
| 19:36:02 | <lechner> | i think i use too too mank $$'s and not enough point free |
| 19:36:06 | <Cale> | But if it associated to the left instead, we could remove some more parens sometimes |
| 19:36:16 | <monochrom> | I wouldn't say whitespace. map(+)[ 1 , 2 , 3 ] these whitespaces and these function applications are mutually exclusive. |
| 19:36:35 | <Cale> | Yeah, that's fair, it doesn't have to be whitespace proper :) |
| 19:36:41 | <Cale> | juxtaposition :) |
| 19:36:44 | <lechner> | i got the point though |
| 19:36:45 | <monochrom> | The correct model is juxtaposition of two expressions. |
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| 19:37:10 | <lechner> | that's where logic and plain english drift apart |
| 19:37:31 | <lechner> | why juxtaposition? |
| 19:37:45 | <monochrom> | Because it is juxtaposition? |
| 19:37:46 | <Cale> | If you start out by replacing all but the last $ with . where you can, it's a good syntactic trick for starting to think about composing functions instead |
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| 19:38:34 | <lechner> | for some reason that never works, at least not with lazy and strict ByteStrings |
| 19:38:42 | <Cale> | hmm |
| 19:38:49 | <lechner> | maybe with lazy alone |
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| 19:39:01 | <Cale> | The types shouldn't affect anything |
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| 19:39:24 | <Cale> | You do need to leave spaces around the composition dots though, and not put spaces around the ones which are module qualifiers |
| 19:39:46 | <Cale> | I'm still a little bit salty that we went with "." for module qualification, given how important composition is. |
| 19:40:05 | <Cale> | I get that it matches all the other languages in the world but still :) |
| 19:40:08 | <lechner> | you would have preferred? |
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| 19:40:35 | <Cale> | I'm not sure, maybe | would have worked out. |
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| 19:40:44 | <lechner> | isn't the dot usally for records, like in PureScript? |
| 19:40:55 | <Cale> | Well, that too |
| 19:41:06 | <geekosaur> | ' might have worked if not for the stuff that took it later |
| 19:41:13 | <Cale> | Yeah |
| 19:41:15 | <lechner> | i would have liked | it's like a pipe |
| 19:41:17 | <monochrom> | Would you prefer Control∘Monad∘State haha |
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| 19:41:32 | <Cale> | I prefer things that I can easily type, to be sure |
| 19:41:49 | <yushyin> | Control-Monad-State |
| 19:41:57 | <Cale> | Otherwise, I probably would prefer using ∘ for composition |
| 19:43:07 | <lechner> | Can I do anything about the $'s here? send catcher [] $ Lazy.toStrict $ Lzma.compress $ JSON.encode task |
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| 19:43:27 | <lechner> | does that operator have a name? |
| 19:43:27 | <Cale> | You could rewrite that as send catcher [] . Lazy.toStrict . Lzma.compress $ JSON.encode task |
| 19:43:42 | <Cale> | Which one? |
| 19:43:46 | <lechner> | $ |
| 19:44:16 | <Cale> | I think most people just say "dollar sign", but you could say "function application" |
| 19:44:20 | <monochrom> | You know what, in Chinese, or at least Chinese writings in the early 20th century, we write Western people names by: (after transliterating to Chinese characters of similar sounds) FirstName·LastName |
| 19:44:41 | <monochrom> | Perhaps that would also be the perfect scheme for hierarchical module names. |
| 19:45:11 | <Clint> | transliterating them to hanzi? |
| 19:45:18 | <monochrom> | Yes. |
| 19:45:24 | Clint | nods. |
| 19:45:45 | <Cale> | ＦｉｒｓｔＮａｍｅ・ＬａｓｔＮａｍｅ |
| 19:45:53 | <lechner> | doesn't the last name come first? |
| 19:46:05 | <monochrom> | No. |
| 19:46:23 | <Cale> | I guess that's why the dot |
| 19:46:42 | <lechner> | sorry, i got confused with my chinese name. yours is for transliteration |
| 19:46:46 | <Cale> | Well, apart from the fact that it would be awkward to figure out where one name ends and the other begins |
| 19:47:09 | <lechner> | it does not matter |
| 19:47:24 | <lechner> | for one person |
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| 19:48:53 | <lechner> | is using too many $ must be a beginner's mistake |
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| 19:50:01 | <geekosaur> | it's often recommended not to use $ at all until you get used to haskell |
| 19:50:42 | <lechner> | too many brackets. i wear glasses |
| 19:51:55 | <lechner> | but i am not using a single . ! i was so excited about them. also, the pure parts of my programs are tiny. monad in. monad out. |
| 19:52:19 | <yushyin> | the general opinion here seems to be that $ is overused and that it is better to use parentheses more often |
| 19:52:52 | <Cale> | I dunno, there are places where you definitely want to use $ -- particularly if the argument is long enough that it's annoying to find the matching closing parens |
| 19:52:53 | <monochrom> | The correct way to get rid of parenthesis is to defeat the point of Fortran and go back to 3-address instructions: let tmp1 = f x; tmp2 = g tmp1; tmp3 = h tmp2 in k tmp3 |
| 19:53:24 | <Cale> | But I'll tend not to chain $'s myself, unless I'm trying to blend in with an existing code style |
| 19:53:40 | <Cale> | I'll always use composition and then a single $ when I use it |
| 19:53:57 | <monochrom> | and roll back 60 years of progress in languages and compilers. |
| 19:54:28 | <Cale> | monochrom: Or RPN |
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| 19:54:53 | <DigitalKiwi> | don't be silly everyone knows there's no $ in haskell! /s |
| 19:55:07 | <Cale> | I wish I hadn't lost all my silly dc snippets |
| 19:55:37 | <Cale> | I remember at one point working out how to do maps and folds over the stack in dc :) |
| 19:55:44 | <yushyin> | pure $ whatever comes next -- is a common pattern for me |
| 19:56:12 | <Cale> | I also never use pure unless it's important that my definition is Applicative polymorphic |
| 19:56:29 | <lechner> | i actually understood that |
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| 19:56:35 | <lechner> | vs return |
| 19:56:39 | <monochrom> | Backus and Knuth worked so hard to find algorithms that can parse (a+b)*c+d so that if you see that formula in math books you can just copy that and it's valid code. Now entitled millenials trash that and want to go back to 3-address instructions. |
| 19:56:43 | <geekosaur> | showing your age :þ |
| 19:56:43 | <Cale> | When I see "pure" in code, I take it as a sign that Applicative is being used in some nontrivial way, and if it's not, I'm mildly annoyed :) |
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| 19:58:05 | <geekosaur> | bet you hate "monad of no return" |
| 19:58:25 | <Cale> | I'm less concerned about that |
| 19:58:33 | <lechner> | others have told me prefer "pure" |
| 19:58:38 | <lechner> | to |
| 19:59:00 | <Cale> | I *would* be opposed to return :: Applicative f => a -> f a though |
| 20:00:01 | <Cale> | It just helps make typechecking in your head that much easier to have that little cue |
| 20:00:16 | <monochrom> | I use pure when the context uses liftA2 or >>= etc so they are on the same page. |
| 20:00:23 | <Cale> | Yeah, that's fair |
| 20:00:36 | <Cale> | I might use pure in cases where I'm also using (<*>) immediately adjacent to it |
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| 20:00:53 | <Rembane> | I always use pure, I blame Purescript. |
| 20:01:17 | <Cale> | Like, maybe I know the thing is a monad, but I'm still using Applicative syntax to combine a bunch of stuff, in that case, pure seems okay. |
| 20:01:18 | <DigitalKiwi> | Cale: lol so that tweet you sent earlier from d6 (who i follow on twitter) finally showed up in my feed...only after someone else had quoted tweeted it and d6 retweeted *that*... |
| 20:01:25 | <Cale> | hah |
| 20:01:28 | <geekosaur> | quite a few people say "just use pure" these days |
| 20:01:45 | <yushyin> | i roll a dice before every use. even is pure, odd is return |
| 20:01:46 | <Cale> | geekosaur: I'm aware, but I think it does lose something |
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| 20:02:28 | <Cale> | Also, I'm of the mindset that "return" is also a pretty good name for what it is most of the time |
| 20:02:30 | <maerwald> | I use `pure` |
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| 20:02:58 | <Cale> | i.e. it makes an action which does nothing except to return the given value as its result |
| 20:03:01 | <monochrom> | I prefer "impurify" >:) |
| 20:03:14 | <Cale> | haha |
| 20:04:08 | <monochrom> | class Monad m => Animate m where anthropomorphize :: a -> m a |
| 20:04:21 | <Cale> | Of course, people who just came from imperative programming sometimes find "return" a bit jarring, because it doesn't have the control effects that they're used to. |
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| 20:05:28 | <Cale> | Imagine being used to having all your stuff implicitly wrapped in callCC |
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| 20:08:32 | <lechner> | return actually makes monads less scary. would it be fair to somehow compare monads to imperative function prototypes? |
| 20:09:33 | <jiribenes> | it makes monads _look_ less scary, but its semantics confuse the heck out of imperative programmers |
| 20:10:18 | <monochrom> | The difference between "I understand, meaning I feel so good" and "I understand, meaning I write correct code". |
| 20:10:37 | <lechner> | does it have semantics |
| 20:10:52 | <lechner> | it does nothing |
| 20:10:57 | <monochrom> | A little bit of semantics from the monad laws. |
| 20:11:06 | <geekosaur> | but tey expect semantics |
| 20:11:13 | <monochrom> | Beyond that, it's up to actual instances. |
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| 20:12:00 | <monochrom> | But do look at "return x >>= k = k x". This tells you a lot. For example, this tells you "not an exit". |
| 20:12:34 | <jiribenes> | ^ this |
| 20:13:04 | <monochrom> | I know of a monad tutorial (that even makes it to Haskell Weekly News) that gets this wrong. |
| 20:13:18 | <monochrom> | Subsequently I shamed them in an exam question. |
| 20:13:53 | <Cale> | haha, nice |
| 20:15:07 | <Cale> | You also have (x >>= \v -> return v) = x, which is another way to say that return isn't doing a whole lot |
| 20:15:38 | <Cale> | But yeah, the actual meaning of return (and (>>=)) varies based on which monad we're talking about |
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| 20:16:27 | <Cale> | So while there's a sort of "imperative-ish" feel to things, sometimes it'll subvert your expectations a bit. Monads can have backtracking, state can flow in the opposite direction from the rest of the computation, etc. |
| 20:17:03 | <maerwald> | is that a good thing? |
| 20:17:18 | <Cale> | Can be. |
| 20:17:20 | <maerwald> | I'd argue it basically makes reasoning harder |
| 20:17:38 | <maerwald> | about monadic combinators at least |
| 20:17:51 | <Cale> | It's good because we get to define a bunch of functions generically that'll work in any monad, and then use them in every monad we define. |
| 20:18:00 | <maerwald> | "work" how? |
| 20:18:11 | <maerwald> | rather "somehow" |
| 20:18:11 | <Cale> | and that saves us a bunch of trouble defining e.g. "forM" in every library we write |
| 20:18:23 | <maerwald> | never understood this argument |
| 20:18:24 | <dsal> | `return` is a bad name and often makes people think something is happening when something else is happening. |
| 20:18:29 | <maerwald> | rust is doing fine without this |
| 20:18:44 | <dsal> | I've had issues reading code that looked pretty weird and used return in a way where I had to make sure the author actually understood what was happening. |
| 20:18:50 | <Cale> | The reason for the monad abstraction to exist is the same as the reason for any abstraction to exist |
| 20:19:11 | <maerwald> | that's too vague for me :) |
| 20:19:12 | <Cale> | We define a lot of things which happen to be monads, it's nice to avoid repeating ourselves when the pattern exists. |
| 20:19:45 | <maerwald> | I'm just questioning that the whole expressivity monads give is actually a good idea to utilize |
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| 20:19:57 | <maerwald> | at least on a general basis |
| 20:20:10 | <maerwald> | especially when it breaks your intuition about combinators |
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| 20:20:25 | <Cale> | Well, combinator libraries in general are a good idea. If your combinator library happens to define a monad, it's nice to recognise that. |
| 20:20:30 | <maerwald> | that expands more generally to type classes |
| 20:20:45 | <monochrom> | If you can bring your same argument against rings, fields, monoids, vector spaces, topologies... then perhaps it applies to monads too. |
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| 20:20:55 | <maerwald> | you refactor your stuff, luckily it still compiles... but the underlying instance does something entirely different |
| 20:20:59 | <maerwald> | that's a lens moment |
| 20:21:17 | <Cale> | Well, that's what the monad laws are for |
| 20:21:24 | <monochrom> | It is both nice and useful to know that, for example, the binomial theorem works for all commutative rings, even though I will end up just using the real number ring anyway. |
| 20:21:26 | <maerwald> | oh, it's not a law problem |
| 20:21:29 | <Cale> | They tell you some refactorings it's okay to make |
| 20:21:35 | <maerwald> | lenses broke my code in a lawful way |
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| 20:21:43 | <maerwald> | that didn't help |
| 20:21:57 | <maerwald> | typeclasses can do that |
| 20:22:14 | <Cale> | Well, it is important to know what you're doing, and I think using things which are overpowered relative to your needs is often a bad idea |
| 20:22:46 | <dsal> | I look at it like applicative functors are a newer thing that monads also are, and since `return = pure` in (hopefully) all the cases, using the less confusing name is better. |
| 20:22:48 | <maerwald> | they can cloud control flow and make behavior reasoning impossible... now you're just reasoning about abstractions and what you roughly think they do, instead of having the actual control flow in your head... most of the time this may work out |
| 20:22:51 | <maerwald> | but sometimes not |
| 20:22:58 | <Cale> | Lens has its places for good use, but I wouldn't recommend using it everywhere all the time. |
| 20:22:59 | <dsal> | > let f x = do { a <- if odd x then return 3 else return 6; return 4 } in f 1 :: Maybe Int -- because people write code like this and end up confused. |
| 20:23:01 | <lambdabot> | Just 4 |
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| 20:23:44 | <Cale> | dsal: Well, I think that's just getting used to what the monad laws say about return |
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| 20:24:07 | <maerwald> | generics take this a step further... idk how to understand my own generics code without writing it again from scratch |
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| 20:24:29 | <dsal> | It's generally people who are somewhat new to the language and who have a lot of things to get used to. Telling them `return` does something entirely different than anything they've ever experienced just makes the curve steeper. |
| 20:24:37 | <Cale> | But also, it makes sense from the perspective that e.g. when you apply f to an odd number, return 3 is going to be the action which does nothing except to return 3 |
| 20:24:41 | <maerwald> | so yeah... haskell has some nice properties wrt "reasoning", but it can break that easily |
| 20:24:49 | <Cale> | and a is the result of executing that, so a will be 3 |
| 20:25:13 | <Cale> | dsal: It's only confusing if you're used to having all your shit wrapped in callCC implicitly :D |
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| 20:25:32 | <maerwald> | whether you need to keep global variables in your head or odd class instance behavior, does it really matter? |
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| 20:26:52 | <dsal> | Sure, but it confuses a lot of folks. `return` in a function doesn't cause the function to return and that surprises people. |
| 20:26:56 | <dsal> | I can't remember the exact case I saw like this, but I had to confirm that they actually understood that the code would continue processing effects after the `return` because it was weird looking code and it wasn't clear whether they understood it. |
| 20:26:58 | <maerwald> | we're almost there (talking about effects systems) |
| 20:27:06 | <maerwald> | (and how they will save us all) |
| 20:27:25 | <dsal> | It's kind of like using the word "peruse" in English. Its definition includes its antonym so you have to ask what people mean all the time and you might as well avoid using the word altogether so nobody's confused. |
| 20:27:27 | <maerwald> | but Cale prefers transformers anyway :p |
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| 20:28:09 | <Cale> | dsal: I totally get that, but people who are trying to read Haskell as though it were e.g. Python, are going to be confused by much more than that anyway, and I think the name "return v" is a fine name for what action it denotes. |
| 20:28:39 | <Cale> | Once you understand that nothing possibly could have the effect that they expected, then it's not confusing at all that return doesn't have that effect |
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| 20:29:35 | <Cale> | The reason it's forbidden is that one of the monad laws effectively says you can chop a segment out of any do-block and move it into a new definition without changing the meaning |
| 20:29:56 | <Cale> | (that's what the associativity law basically means) |
| 20:30:15 | <Cale> | and so, that includes stuff with returns in it |
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| 20:30:44 | <dsal> | The idea of what `return` does is similar to the idea of what `fail` does, though. `fail` gets to return early, so I can just evaluate stuff until I `return` or `fail`. |
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| 20:30:58 | <dsal> | Anyway, I find it confusing, but don't know why I'd actually *want* to use `return`. It's never made any code clearer for me. |
| 20:31:03 | <Cale> | It's not though... |
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| 20:31:17 | <Cale> | fail will cause the entire computation to fail, sure. |
| 20:31:29 | <Cale> | But that's not the same as ending the present definition |
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| 20:31:43 | <Cale> | It extends arbitrarily far beyond that |
| 20:31:48 | <dsal> | Why not, though? What's the difference between Left and Right here? |
| 20:32:12 | <Cale> | Like, what you probably expect of your f from before is that 3 gets returned *from f* |
| 20:32:33 | <Cale> | Not that 3 gets returned from the entire final action of which f 1 was only possibly a small part |
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| 20:33:29 | <Cale> | i.e. you expect something like f x = callCC $ \ret -> if odd x then ret 3 else ret 6; return 4 |
| 20:33:45 | <dsal> | Yeah, I think that's what people often expect. |
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| 20:34:04 | <Cale> | But if return behaved like Left, that's not what would happen |
| 20:34:12 | <dsal> | Nobody ever expects that with `pure` though. |
| 20:34:25 | <Cale> | Because if we had something like do f 1; f 2 |
| 20:34:38 | <Cale> | then we might not expect 3 to be returned |
| 20:35:11 | <Cale> | The monad laws tell us that we're always allowed to inline the definition of f 1 |
| 20:35:28 | <dsal> | Sure, I agree with that model. It's simply the word that's confusing. |
| 20:35:33 | <dsal> | I don't even have a good mental model for what `return` should mean (other than just aliasing it to `pure` in my head). I have a mechanical rewrite so that I don't think of anything being returned because the concept doesn't make sense. |
| 20:35:52 | <lechner> | dsal: in the two meanings of "peruse" I see a range of reading activities. it's the logical way to combine them |
| 20:35:54 | <Cale> | It might be confusing for all of a few minutes until someone tells you what return means |
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| 20:36:27 | <Cale> | But like, that's also true of the entire rest of the programming language, so I don't see it as a really big deal |
| 20:36:38 | <dsal> | lechner: peruse means you've seen something, but the original definition implies you studied it very carefully and the other meaning suggests you've only taken a cursory glance. |
| 20:36:44 | <Cale> | You're going to be introduced to return at some point, and you might've thought it meant something a bit different before then |
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| 20:37:01 | <Cale> | But I've never seen anyone get *really* stuck on it |
| 20:37:16 | <Cale> | once they're aware that "return v" is the no-op action that does nothing except return v |
| 20:37:23 | <dsal> | Cale: I don't think I fundamentally disagree with you. `return` doesn't confuse me that much, but only because I don't think of it as a word and instead immediately alias it to `pure` and move on. |
| 20:37:33 | <dsal> | But you suggest that it's important to *use* `return` and that part I don't understand. |
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| 20:38:31 | <Cale> | Well, the part about using return when appropriate is just that its type is a little more specific, and so the distinction of return vs. pure helps us know when we're really making use of a broader abstraction. |
| 20:38:37 | <alexfmpe[m]> | I could have sworn I had seen an util for folding two lists at once but am unable to find it, anyone know what I'm talking about? |
| 20:38:44 | <dsal> | But `return v` doesn't `return v` it just places a pure value inside the current Monad. i.e. `return = Just` or `return = Right` or whatever. It's an abstraction of a constructor, not any kind of flow control thing like the verb suggests. |
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| 20:38:57 | <lechner> | dsal: it's a super old rhetorical device: one morning, one night---a day. it describes the range between the edge cases |
| 20:38:59 | <Cale> | alexfmpe[m]: hmm... you mean like, folding through their zip? |
| 20:39:12 | <Cale> | alexfmpe[m]: Or it's supposed to do something different if one of them ends early? |
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| 20:39:35 | <Cale> | dsal: Well, it does |
| 20:39:50 | <Cale> | In the same way that when we have something like v <- x |
| 20:39:55 | <alexfmpe[m]> | cale: more of the later, as in the merge step of mergesort |
| 20:39:56 | <Cale> | The v is the value that x returned |
| 20:40:02 | <Cale> | So when you write v <- return 3 |
| 20:40:05 | <Cale> | then v is 3 |
| 20:40:11 | <dsal> | :t zipWith bimap |
| 20:40:13 | <lambdabot> | Bifunctor p => [a -> b] -> [c -> d] -> [p a c -> p b d] |
| 20:40:30 | <alexfmpe[m]> | dsal: "abstraction of a constructor" isn't at all how I would put it, take ZipList or Cont for instance |
| 20:40:55 | <maerwald> | dsal: I think `success` and `fail` would be reasonble shortcut names. `return` is more from the ASM days |
| 20:41:18 | <Cale> | I think of "return v" as meaning "the action which, when executed, produces v as its result" |
| 20:41:37 | <dsal> | Cale: I think I can at least parse that. |
| 20:41:55 | <Cale> | So return v is the action which... returns v |
| 20:42:10 | <Cale> | It doesn't mean "return from the caller immediately with v" |
| 20:42:12 | <maerwald> | `return` means `return to the address on the top of the stack` |
| 20:42:13 | <dsal> | I feel like it's a stretch, but I can at least accept it. :) |
| 20:42:23 | <maerwald> | for anything else, the word doesn't make any sense |
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| 20:42:32 | <Cale> | I think it's *less* of a stretch than the traditional sense of return in programming |
| 20:42:52 | <dsal> | ...but why do you consider using `pure` for the same thing less desirable? |
| 20:42:52 | <alexfmpe[m]> | I dunno, every intuition besides `pure` being identity-ish (which exactly what the laws require), seems more of a trap to me |
| 20:43:17 | <maerwald> | Cale: "returning v" may make sense in rust, where you return ownership |
| 20:43:30 | <dsal> | alexfmpe[m]: Sure, sure. I don't mind traps as long as I can get back out of them. |
| 20:43:43 | <maerwald> | but in most languages you don't even have such a concept |
| 20:43:47 | <alexfmpe[m]> | I meant traps as in actually getting in the way |
| 20:43:48 | <maerwald> | no one owns anything |
| 20:43:56 | <dsal> | alexfmpe[m]: Yeah, I get the meaning. |
| 20:44:06 | <deejaytee> | I tend to use pure instead of return everywhere, since it prevents people unfamiliar with haskell for mistaking it for the return they know |
| 20:44:25 | <alexfmpe[m]> | I've hated the normal formulation of applicative/monad ever since I saw the monoidal and join/fmap based laws |
| 20:44:39 | <dsal> | My understanding of haskell is good enough that it's my go-to language for just about everything including just thinking of stuff. But if I ever have a completely intuitive understanding of all of it, I'll have to find something else. |
| 20:44:40 | <deejaytee> | admittedly a pretty weird use - nobody ever really reads my code anyways |
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| 20:44:51 | <maerwald> | deejaytee: I know that feeling |
| 20:44:54 | <alexfmpe[m]> | it's just...collapsing and mapping |
| 20:45:04 | <alexfmpe[m]> | trying to treat it as anything else is just going to confuse me |
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| 20:46:45 | <Cale> | alexfmpe[m]: foldr2 b l r z (x:xs) [] = foldr l z (x:xs); foldr2 b l r z [] (y:ys) = foldr r z (y:ys); foldr2 b l r z (x:xs) (y:ys) = b l r (foldr2 b l r z xs ys) |
| 20:46:48 | <Cale> | maybe? |
| 20:47:12 | <Cale> | There's probably something more general still... |
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| 20:47:48 | <Cale> | Actually, maybe it's saner to factor out the uses of foldr at the ends |
| 20:47:56 | <alexfmpe[m]> | oh hmm |
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| 20:48:00 | <alexfmpe[m]> | not quite like that |
| 20:48:32 | <Cale> | (and I didn't handle the doubly empty case, I was going to generalise the (x:xs) pattern match...) |
| 20:48:33 | <alexfmpe[m]> | I'm basically gate-ing one of the lists against the other |
| 20:48:36 | <alexfmpe[m]> | like, whitelisting |
| 20:48:48 | × | fossdd quits (~fossdd@sourcehut/user/fossdd) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 20:49:05 | <Cale> | Ohh... like, say to compute the intersection of sorted lists? |
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| 20:49:30 | <alexfmpe[m]> | welll, almost whitelisting, I'm checking that a subsequence of one list matches is included in the other |
| 20:50:18 | <alexfmpe[m]> | I've done it manually, with normal pattern matching and recursion |
| 20:50:53 | <Cale> | Is the order important? |
| 20:51:14 | <Cale> | (Or could we pass to using e.g. Data.Set, which would be more efficient a lot of the time) |
| 20:51:29 | <alexfmpe[m]> | I'm not 100%, as it's been a while but I think so |
| 20:51:37 | <alexfmpe[m]> | otherwise, yeah, intersection |
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| 20:52:43 | <alexfmpe[m]> | oh, this might work https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/Data-List.html#v:intersect |
| 20:53:22 | <alexfmpe[m]> | take the intersection and check it matches the original list I'm whitelisting against |
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| 20:54:04 | <dsal> | :t fold . zipWith |
| 20:54:05 | <lambdabot> | Foldable ((->) [a]) => (a -> b -> c) -> [b] -> [c] |
| 20:54:09 | <Cale> | It could, but note that this thing only requires Eq, so there's no way it's anything cheaper than quadratic |
| 20:54:30 | <alexfmpe[m]> | bah |
| 20:54:45 | <alexfmpe[m]> | in my case I actually needed `intersectBy :: (a -> b -> Bool) -> [a] -> [b] -> [a]` or something |
| 20:54:59 | <alexfmpe[m]> | but `intersectBy` is `a -> a -> Bool` for some reaosn |
| 20:55:06 | <alexfmpe[m]> | and, yeah, quadratic |
| 20:55:25 | <Cale> | I'm sure I've written this higher order function before... |
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| 20:55:42 | <Cale> | that applies a function to know whether to walk down one list or the other |
| 20:55:51 | <Cale> | and produces results as it goes |
| 20:55:53 | <dsal> | :t \f l1 -> fold . zipWith (\a b -> f a b) l1 |
| 20:55:55 | <lambdabot> | Monoid c => (t1 -> t2 -> c) -> [t1] -> [t2] -> c |
| 20:55:59 | <dsal> | Well that's kind of gross. |
| 20:56:06 | <Cale> | It's different from folding over the zip |
| 20:56:14 | <alexfmpe[m]> | well, this is assymetric, I always go down the whitelist one, and may or may not go down the whitelisted one depending on whether it matches |
| 20:56:26 | <dsal> | Yeah, sorry, I'm not actually aware of the topic here. Just was wondering about that. |
| 20:56:43 | <alexfmpe[m]> | I dunno, maybe I should fold the whitelist one, and have a pair as the accumulator |
| 20:57:17 | <alexfmpe[m]> | `(already-whitelisted, check-whether-whitelisted) :: ([a], [a])` |
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| 21:06:06 | <dsal> | alexfmpe[m]: Is that just something like `[ a | a <- l1, b <- l2, f a b]` ? |
| 21:06:57 | <dsal> | Oh, intersectBy is in Data.OldList with a definition similar to that. |
| 21:07:18 | <alexfmpe[m]> | I don't think I can get away with intersection, since multiplicity matters here |
| 21:07:49 | <alexfmpe[m]> | well, and order, otherwise some multiset intersection thing would work |
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| 21:13:38 | <Cale> | alexfmpe[m]: Here's a fun one: https://gist.github.com/cgibbard/b129fe412b74cca676ac2a2c941362ea |
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| 21:14:57 | <Cale> | Pretty close to the most general thing you can do with a pair of lists, lol |
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| 21:16:09 | <alexfmpe[m]> | huh that looks like it works for my case |
| 21:16:19 | <alexfmpe[m]> | though, Pick seems suspiciously like `These` |
| 21:17:29 | <Cale> | yeah |
| 21:17:42 | <alexfmpe[m]> | `these :: (a -> c) -> (b -> c) -> (a -> b -> c) -> These a b -> c` |
| 21:18:12 | <Cale> | I probably should have just used These |
| 21:18:20 | <Cale> | For some reason it slipped my mind |
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| 21:18:45 | <Cale> | Though this is kinda sorta dual to it |
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| 21:18:56 | <alexfmpe[m]> | it's backwards though? |
| 21:18:57 | <alexfmpe[m]> | yeah |
| 21:19:05 | <alexfmpe[m]> | more like `These a b -> (c -> c)` |
| 21:19:32 | <Cale> | Yeah, you'd have something like (a -> b -> These a b) and (These a b -> c -> c) |
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| 21:36:07 | <peutri> | what's the standard these days to parse a relaxng-constrained xml? |
| 21:36:38 | <peutri> | i looked around for some sort of validate-parser combo, but it always return some form of generic xml structure |
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| 21:37:58 | <peutri> | i was hoping for actual sum types, to (help) get a feeling I'm not forgetting branches in my cases |
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| 21:40:31 | <dsal> | Huh, I've never really looked at these, but it's been brought up twice in the last couple of days. It's pretty neat. |
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| 22:01:52 | <lechner> | Hi, why do I have to send my Haskell programs Ctrl-C two times to terminate, please? |
| 22:02:47 | <geekosaur> | are you trapping exceptions? ctrl-c is translated into an exception |
| 22:03:15 | <lechner> | i am |
| 22:03:33 | <glguy> | You shouldn't be blanket-dropping exceptions |
| 22:03:48 | <lechner> | actually, not in this program |
| 22:03:57 | <hpc> | the first ctrl-c is for your program, the second ctrl-c is for the rts to go "uh oh" |
| 22:04:04 | <hpc> | otherwise you'd be stuck |
| 22:04:46 | <monochrom> | I only need one ctrl-c. |
| 22:04:56 | <lechner> | can i do anything useful in the RTS? |
| 22:05:13 | <monochrom> | Unless my ghci is inside emacs, but then it's emacs that requires two ctrl-c. |
| 22:05:37 | <hpc> | *c-c |
| 22:05:51 | <lechner> | i use 'cabal install' and then run the program from that path via fish |
| 22:06:12 | <geekosaur> | fwiw I just tested one of my programs and it only requires one ctrl-c. I don't use exceptions |
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| 22:07:03 | <geekosaur> | (took some time to get it to run long enough to let me interrupt it though) |
| 22:07:15 | <lechner> | maybe something with the ZMQ loop |
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| 22:07:37 | <monochrom> | This is what goes wrong when you overgeneralize your question. |
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| 22:08:46 | <glguy> | When I press ^C I just got C added to my program's input buffer |
| 22:09:13 | <hpc> | this reproduces the ^C^C behavior - Prelude Control.Exception Control.Concurrent> catch (threadDelay 100000000) (\(SomeException e) -> threadDelay 10000000) |
| 22:10:25 | <hpc> | you have to ^C while execution is in an exception handler, it seems |
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| 22:12:47 | <lechner> | Hi, is there a way to assign values to a constituent in a "data" type (sorry, if that lingo is bogus) or do I always have to construct a new one? |
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| 22:13:15 | <monochrom> | Immutable data means you have to construct a new one. |
| 22:13:21 | <geekosaur> | you always ocnstruct a new one although it may be based on an old one |
| 22:13:49 | <monochrom> | It also means that you can still get 90% reuse. |
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| 22:15:31 | <hpc> | record update syntax can be a nice shortcut for having to fully type out constructing a new value |
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| 22:16:32 | <lechner> | that discipline is great. i keep finding bugs, or near misses |
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| 22:18:17 | <lechner> | i really have to get my types in order |
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| 22:19:28 | <sm> | get your ducks in a row 🦆 🦆 🦆 |
| 22:20:14 | <lechner> | if they only were all ducks! |
| 22:22:08 | <lechner> | this program will be so reliable, they can take it to Mars |
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| 22:24:19 | <sm> | all must be ducks in ducks compartment. Please stay in your assigned seating so that we can depart for Mars on time. |
| 22:25:34 | <lechner> | actually, with "duck typing" being a common expression elsewhere we should really pick a different animal |
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| 22:26:16 | <sm> | these are space ducks |
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| 22:27:03 | <sm> | highly trained |
| 22:27:32 | <Axman6> | These ducks know their type, and will not accept gooses |
| 22:28:28 | <Axman6> | (and gooses are distinct from geese too) |
| 22:30:46 | <lechner> | with so much professionalism required, I was more thinking about penguins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1iejIfJ0gk |
| 22:31:28 | <DigitalKiwi> | what do you call a flock of geese at 1600 Amphitheatre Parkway? |
| 22:31:34 | <DigitalKiwi> | a gaggle |
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| 22:34:36 | <DigitalKiwi> | if that is not improved upon and posted to twitter later ya'll have failed me ;( |
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| 22:38:49 | <Cale> | lechner: Yeah, the way that I think about it is that if you want to write good software in a language without a good type system, you still need to think about types, it's just that the computer isn't going to be much help. |
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| 22:40:21 | <lechner> | Cale: I feel silly about having done so much in Perl |
| 22:40:32 | <DigitalKiwi> | plz buy my new book on dysfunctional programming; types without thinking, available soon but maybe never! |
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| 22:42:44 | <DigitalKiwi> | (this is parody) |
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| 22:45:47 | <DigitalKiwi> | kind of want that book though ;( |
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| 22:47:17 | <monochrom> | I think I can contribute to that book. When I was undergrad, some classmates did the following, I had to correct them. |
| 22:47:40 | <monochrom> | We were learning C and reading man pages for library functions like strcpy for example. |
| 22:48:22 | <monochrom> | man page had a line about the type, "char *strcpy(char *dest, const char *src)". |
| 22:48:52 | <monochrom> | My classmates fulfilled that line only, without reading the rest of the man page or understanding why we need dst, by coding: |
| 22:49:04 | <monochrom> | char *foo; strcpy(foo, "hello"); |
| 22:49:21 | <geekosaur> | oy |
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| 22:56:04 | <lechner> | i once worked with a gentleman who took on an Excel task at work. the resulting file contained no formulas; he had used a desk calculator for the computations and then typed in all the values |
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| 22:59:29 | <hpc> | that reminds me of a story from a web developer job interview |
| 23:00:01 | <hpc> | the interviewer asked "how would you calculate the area of a square", and the interviewee asked "how long are the sides?" |
| 23:00:17 | <hpc> | and just couldn't understand that they wanted a formula |
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| 23:05:49 | <DigitalKiwi> | A mathematician, a physicist, and an engineer were all given a red rubber ball and told to find the volume. |
| 23:05:50 | <DigitalKiwi> | The mathematician carefully measured the diameter and evaluated a triple integral. |
| 23:05:52 | <DigitalKiwi> | The physicist filled a beaker with water, put the ball in the water, and measured the total displacement. |
| 23:05:54 | <DigitalKiwi> | The engineer looked up the model and serial numbers in his red-rubber-ball table. |
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| 23:09:57 | <hpc> | when i measured my red rubber ball at home i came up with a volume of 0db |
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| 23:12:58 | <monochrom> | Wait, I would expect the mathematician to measure the surface areas and divide by 3. |
| 23:13:22 | <DigitalKiwi> | the web developer is still trying to figure out how long the sides are |
| 23:13:42 | <hpc> | monochrom: that doesn't work in anti-de sitter space |
| 23:14:39 | <monochrom> | I also missed a factor of the radius. |
| 23:14:55 | <monochrom> | But heh anti-de-sitter space is more funny. |
| 23:18:58 | <Axman6> | lechner: there will be times where the type system frustrates you, and you will ask yourself questions that begin "Why can't I just..." but then you'll remember that the compiler is your friend and wants to help you, and you also need to work to help it understand your needs. It's like a good relationship |
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| 23:19:28 | <Axman6> | (Yes, writing perl, python and ruby is like having a relationship where you throw abuse at your partner and expect it to do what you mean) |
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| 23:20:19 | <Axman6> | DigitalKiwi: Either (Soon Book) (Maybe Never) |
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| 23:27:02 | <Cajun> | well the compiler does its best to help, sometimes it just isnt very good at it lol |
| 23:27:37 | <lechner> | it's the thought that counts |
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| 23:28:39 | <Axman6> | exactly, you shouldn't expect perfection from your partner. Sometimes they will mess up and delete your source code when it doesn't type check |
| 23:29:28 | <cheater> | hmm... a compiler that deletes code that's too stupid... that's an interesting design idea |
| 23:29:34 | <hpc> | i read that windows defender did that to someone the other day with a tool they wrote to generate license keys for some software they sold |
| 23:29:44 | <hpc> | so not even outside the realm of possibility lol |
| 23:29:46 | <Axman6> | cheater: that was an actual GHC bug |
| 23:29:53 | <cheater> | nice |
| 23:30:05 | <cheater> | but did it commit and force push the git? |
| 23:30:16 | <cheater> | because if not, then it's just half measures |
| 23:30:16 | <Axman6> | it might have been before git... |
| 23:30:18 | <DigitalKiwi> | well if you weren't so careless GHC wouldn't have thrown it out! |
| 23:31:32 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/163 |
| 23:31:35 | <Cajun> | how about if you abuse unsafePerformIO to get around immutability it throws it out |
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| 23:40:38 | <lechner> | Hi, is there a naming convention for function variables, other than starting with a lowercase letter? |
| 23:41:41 | <monochrom> | I hate camel case but I respect that it's a community choice so I play along. |
| 23:41:46 | <Axman6> | make the name meaningful is there is a meaningful name, otherwise use a well used placeholder - x and xs are common because they can usually represent anything |
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| 23:42:47 | <geekosaur> | for a generic function variable, something like f / g / h |
| 23:43:26 | <monochrom> | And yeah, supposedly generic entities shouldn't take your time choosing "meaningful" names. Save it for really specific entities. |
| 23:43:47 | <Axman6> | there are conventions for type variable names, and sometimes using that same name for the variables with that type can be useful (but also confusing to those who are very new) |
| 23:44:32 | <lechner> | i use meaningful names but they can get long, and because of the JSON i have I'm getting drawn into the East Coast underscore_style |
| 23:45:50 | <Axman6> | Jed Wesley-Smith's talk 'Why "Names Don't Matter" matters' is pretty good on the topic IIRC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSNg6KNzydQ (I'm a bit biased though) |
| 23:46:24 | <Axman6> | you can control the names that are generated in your json and have it convery to snake case if you need that |
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| 23:47:03 | <Cajun> | functions also tend to have some way of denoting what it uses, like mapM (monadic), foldl' (its strict), etc |
| 23:49:10 | <janus> | % :t replicateM |
| 23:49:10 | <yahb> | janus: Applicative m => Int -> m a -> m [a] |
| 23:49:14 | <janus> | and they can lie about it :P |
| 23:50:02 | <Axman6> | It's like conferate statues in the US, a relic of the past that should be changed |
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| 23:51:19 | <monochrom> | BTW I avoid using the word "isomorphism" and its derivatives. |
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| 23:51:54 | <dsal> | replicate'M |
| 23:52:08 | <Axman6> | yeah the cool kids use s'morphism these days |
| 23:52:14 | <dsal> | @hoogle replicate'M |
| 23:52:14 | <lambdabot> | No results found |
| 23:52:16 | <dsal> | boo |
| 23:52:19 | <Axman6> | sounds less like an apple product |
| 23:52:35 | <Axman6> | @hoogle m'Lady |
| 23:52:35 | <lambdabot> | No results found |
| 23:52:45 | <dsal> | "meaningful names" are often pretty terrible and distracting. |
| 23:52:45 | <monochrom> | It can be a very precise and meaningful word, but only when me and my audience have already established context regarding what structure is being preserved. |
| 23:53:57 | <monochrom> | If I am just explaining to a beginner that "Bool->X" and "(X,X)" represent the same thing, I stay informal and say "equivalent" in the daily English sense, or at most I go "bijective". |
| 23:54:08 | <Axman6> | "One-to-one correspondy boi" |
| 23:54:33 | <monochrom> | There is absolutely no need to encourage beginners to cargo-cult the word "ismorphism". |
| 23:55:02 | <lechner> | can the scrutinee be an expression? |
| 23:55:15 | <dsal> | Sure, yeah. |
| 23:55:31 | <monochrom> | If you take a poll in the Haskell community, I bet you that you will find that most people reply "I say 'isomorphism' because, only because, I hear other people say it, I don't really know why". |
| 23:55:33 | <DigitalKiwi> | replicate'm? damn near killed'em |
| 23:55:56 | <Axman6> | XD |
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| 23:57:23 | <lechner> | Can something like this tool_folder <- getTool (tool config) tempdir really be turned into something like case (getTool (tool config) tempdir) of ? |
| 23:57:38 | <Axman6> | no |
| 23:57:45 | <Axman6> | well, it depends which monad you're working in |
| 23:57:58 | <Axman6> | there's a lot of missing context around that <- |
| 23:58:10 | <dsal> | You can lambdacase it. |
| 23:58:12 | <lechner> | yeah |
| 23:58:55 | <dsal> | But `x <- a` isn't an expression, it's a fancy way to write `x >>= \a -> ...` |
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| 23:59:16 | <lechner> | i know i did not use the right term |
| 23:59:55 | <dsal> | With LambdaCase you can write `getTool (tool config) tempDir >>= \case ...` |
All times are in UTC on 2021-07-27.