Logs on 2021-08-01 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:41:55 | <Guest9133> | Nevermind, you can just use `hToTuple` and `hFromTuple` https://hackage.haskell.org/package/HList-0.5.0.0 to convert. That's what I get for having case-sensitive search on :/ |
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| 05:45:56 | <steven1> | hello, conduit has a function mapOutput :: Monad m => (o1 -> o2) -> ConduitT i o1 m r -> ConduitT i o2 m r . Is there a similar function like mapMOutput :: Monad m => (o1 -> m o2) -> ConduitT i o1 m r -> ConduitT i o2 m r ? It seems like there isn't, I'm wondering why not |
| 05:48:06 | <steven1> | the reason I want it: I'm trying to model request/response between parallel actors, which communicate using a conduit. So one will send a 'request', then I want to mapMOutput to give the request a newMVar, then when the other actor wants to 'respond', it will do a putMVar on it |
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| 06:01:17 | <steven1> | I guess I can always put another conduit in between to do this. Still, I'm curious if there's a reason this doesn't exist |
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| 08:44:15 | <mastarija> | I have the following types: |
| 08:44:19 | <mastarija> | (v -> x) -> TheType m x e -> TheType m v (Maybe e) |
| 08:44:21 | <mastarija> | (v -> t x) -> TheType m x e -> TheType m v (Maybe (t (Maybe e))) |
| 08:44:24 | <mastarija> | (v -> x) -> [TheType m x e] -> TheType m v (Maybe e) |
| 08:44:26 | <mastarija> | (v -> t x) -> [TheType m x e] -> TheType m v (Maybe (t (Maybe e))) |
| 08:44:40 | <mastarija> | And I wanted to make a class that would help me overload those operations |
| 08:44:48 | <mastarija> | e.g. class DoIt f v o | o -> f where doIt :: f -> v -> o |
| 08:45:16 | <mastarija> | But that can't be done without some tag, right? |
| 08:46:22 | <mastarija> | I can't figure out how to create instances without introducing a tag `t` in my DoIt class, and make it determine `f` `v` and `o` |
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| 08:47:41 | <mastarija> | It feels like it should be possible, but then again, I can't figure it out. |
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| 08:48:16 | <tomsmeding> | mastarija: what goes wrong when you just write 'instance DoIt (v -> x) (TheType m x e) (TheType m v (Maybe e)) where ...' for each of the options |
| 08:48:41 | <tomsmeding> | (with FlexibleInstances) |
| 08:49:09 | <tomsmeding> | oh because 'x' is not implied? |
| 08:49:15 | <mastarija> | Coverage condition fails for fundep o -> f |
| 08:49:27 | <mastarija> | lhs type `Validator m v (Maybe e)' does not determine rhs type `v -> x' |
| 08:49:50 | <mastarija> | Un-determined variable: x |
| 08:50:20 | <mastarija> | I mean, I guess FunDeps expect me to provide a "solid" type |
| 08:50:42 | <mastarija> | Without type variables |
| 08:50:50 | <tomsmeding> | no the error means that there are multiple 'f' types that correspond to the same 'o' type |
| 08:50:55 | <tomsmeding> | indeed, one for every instantiation of 'x' |
| 08:51:08 | <tomsmeding> | which contradicts the fundep, which literally says that there is one 'f' type for each valid 'o' |
| 08:51:17 | <mastarija> | A... |
| 08:51:30 | <mastarija> | tomsmeding, yes I didn't think about it that way |
| 08:51:42 | <tomsmeding> | do you need to fundep? |
| 08:51:45 | <tomsmeding> | without it seems to work |
| 08:51:50 | <mastarija> | Really? |
| 08:51:54 | <mastarija> | Oh.. |
| 08:52:19 | <mastarija> | Huh... look at that |
| 08:52:29 | <tomsmeding> | s/to fundep/the fundep/ |
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| 11:13:12 | <dexterfoo> | is there a non-blocking version of Conduit "await" function? I want to process all the current data that is queued |
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| 11:16:38 | <lechner> | Hi, Haskell offers interesting methods to structure database access like esqueleto. Who uses such domain specific features, please, and what is the benefit over traditional ways like postgres-simple, aside from possibly being independent of the specific SQL grovider? Thanks! |
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| 11:19:32 | <dexterfoo> | i think the advantages are: 1) type checks that validate that your queries are correct and match the database schema. 2) composability: create small query fragments that can be reused in bigger queries |
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| 11:26:23 | <hpc> | especially #2 - the alternatives are actually writing out the query (which it seems nobody knows how to do anymore) |
| 11:26:47 | <hpc> | using an orm that lifts the logic outside the query, leading to some pretty embarassing performance problems (i have seen this in python) |
| 11:26:59 | <hpc> | or using store procedures and views, which... nobody seems to know how to be a dba anymore either |
| 11:28:19 | <Hanicef> | hpc: yeah, orm has its caveats, but it also have benefits, especially since haskell's laziness helps with optimizing queries at times |
| 11:29:02 | <hpc> | at times |
| 11:29:31 | <Hanicef> | have you heard of the n+1 problem with orms? if not, i suggest you read up about it :) |
| 11:29:37 | <hpc> | if you're writing out the query yourself, the language doesn't have to be lazy, you just control how far into the table you take the cursor |
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| 11:32:37 | <hpc> | Hanicef: yeah, i am referring to the n+1 problem there |
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| 11:33:08 | <hpc> | but n+1 is optimistic if you have sufficiently complex data |
| 11:34:50 | <hpc> | if you look at it from the python code's perspective, it can easily be 2n or n**2 |
| 11:35:19 | <hpc> | because you don't think about what sql each operation does, and you just casually foo.bar() your way to passing the test suite |
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| 11:36:03 | <dexterfoo> | The high-level haskell database libraries are more similar to C# LINQ then to ORMs |
| 11:39:55 | <maerwald> | Why would you even use SQL if you don't care about performance |
| 11:40:34 | <hpc> | because you aren't webscale enough for mongodb and files are bad? |
| 11:40:42 | <Hanicef> | maerwald: well, performance does matter if its causing issues for the end user |
| 11:40:51 | <hpc> | or you want the acid properties, or you just like the query language |
| 11:41:07 | <Hanicef> | the important thing is that it's good enough for the user not to be bothered by it |
| 11:41:09 | <maerwald> | no, SQL is entirely about performance... it's decades of optimisation |
| 11:41:18 | <hpc> | or the aws budget comes from operations and not development :P |
| 11:41:19 | <maerwald> | which is thrown out by ORMs |
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| 11:42:01 | <Hanicef> | maerwald: it's also an attempt on making a common and portable interface to relational database, but that went terrible |
| 11:42:01 | <maerwald> | Files are great |
| 11:43:02 | <hpc> | files are potentially great, but it's easy to screw up locking, fsync, etc |
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| 11:43:23 | <maerwald> | files are great on non-windows platforms |
| 11:43:32 | <merijn> | Files are awful everywhere >.< |
| 11:43:33 | <hpc> | heh, that too |
| 11:43:48 | <lechner> | maerwald: do the DB alternatives you are thinking of offer data integrity, like ON DELETE CASCADE? |
| 11:44:01 | <hpc> | libraries that use files under the hood are often great though |
| 11:44:06 | <dexterfoo> | This article claims that "Files are fraught with peril" and you will likely have data loss: https://danluu.com/deconstruct-files/ |
| 11:44:24 | <merijn> | dexterfoo: That article is entirely correct, tbh :p |
| 11:44:34 | <maerwald> | lechner: check package manager file handling code. The database is supposed to be on one device and all operations are atomic. Man errors can be recovered from. |
| 11:44:42 | <merijn> | If you want a database, but you don't, like, want a database, you just want SQLite :p |
| 11:44:54 | <hpc> | (proof: all libraries are file-backed eventually, and the only one that matters is postgres :D) |
| 11:45:14 | <hpc> | sqlite is so nice firefox bundled it twice |
| 11:45:21 | <merijn> | hpc: Untrue, the only ones that matter are postgres *and* SQLite :p |
| 11:45:45 | <hpc> | at least, they used to |
| 11:45:48 | <merijn> | My only regret from introducing SQLite into my codebase is: 1) not integrating more of it, 2) not integrating it sooner, and 3) using persistent :p |
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| 11:46:20 | <maerwald> | I went from an sqlite->postgres conversion, so I really only use sqlite for toy things or local stuff, not real world data |
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| 11:46:32 | <merijn> | maerwald: It depends what real world data |
| 11:47:01 | <merijn> | I'm not advocating the use of SQLite for, like, massively concurrent webservers |
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| 11:47:15 | <merijn> | more for, like, "local commandline tool data management" |
| 11:47:42 | <hpc> | we've drifted off of esqueleto, -offtopic? |
| 11:48:57 | <maerwald> | merijn: stack uses sqlite (not sure since when) and I think it has only increased the number of errors it throws |
| 11:49:41 | <merijn> | maerwald: Seems weird to conclude that that must be SQLite's fault, as opposed to mismanagement |
| 11:50:09 | <merijn> | maerwald: Also |
| 11:50:12 | <maerwald> | my point is: don't pick a database unless you really need to |
| 11:50:23 | <merijn> | stack uses sqlite via persistent (because, duh) |
| 11:50:27 | <maerwald> | many people will do it just because they're familiar with it and less familiar with filesystem |
| 11:50:33 | <merijn> | And I'm absolutely *not* surprised that that's broken as fuck |
| 11:50:46 | <merijn> | Because persistent is a disaster |
| 11:51:05 | <merijn> | And I've had to repeatedly fix persistent-sqlite to get reasonable behaviour |
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| 11:52:52 | <maerwald> | oh, to install nix inside docker you need a privileged container. Wat? |
| 11:53:00 | <merijn> | Yes |
| 11:53:17 | <merijn> | Can't really use Nix without root unless you recompile it yourself |
| 11:54:42 | <maerwald> | I'm trying to run stack integration tests in a container, but it requires nix |
| 11:55:11 | <maerwald> | first, nix tries to invoke sudo without my consent (and there is none), then it tries to mount /proc or whatever |
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| 11:56:51 | <maerwald> | did we come up with controlling the environment so we don't have to write robust code anymore? |
| 11:56:59 | <hpc> | yes |
| 11:57:03 | <hpc> | that's exactly what it is |
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| 11:58:43 | <hpc> | it started with controlling the runtime environment because "this code is from 1997" |
| 11:59:02 | <hpc> | then someone noticed you could control the development environment too, and programmers never had to think ever again |
| 11:59:14 | <lechner> | I have never used ORMs due to the "impedence mismatch". With Haskell's declarative features, it seems the language should be able to offer something else, although I am not sure what I am looking for. This article even offers the intriguing statement that "A major mismatch between existing relational and OO languages is the type system differences." Is there anything else, maybe a set-based |
| 11:59:16 | <lechner> | approach? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object%E2%80%93relational_impedance_mismatch |
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| 12:19:13 | <thomasjm[m]> | @lech |
| 12:19:13 | <lambdabot> | Maybe you meant: let leet echo |
| 12:19:49 | <thomasjm[m]> | lechner: the most impressive haskell SQL library i've encountered is Beam, you might enjoy the comparison it has here https://haskell-beam.github.io/beam/about/faq/ |
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| 12:22:59 | <lechner> | thomasjm[m]: thanks for that pointer! opaleye was mentioned here by its author not too long ago, and i'm now reading up on beam |
| 12:23:43 | <dexterfoo> | what is this GHC error? solveWanteds: too many iterations (limit = 4) |
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| 14:10:18 | <stevenxl> | Hi folks. I have a haskell script and I want to import a module from a package that is not on stackage. The package is on github. Is that possible? |
| 14:10:25 | <stevenxl> | https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/TEmcMFxR/ |
| 14:10:31 | <stevenxl> | That's my haskell script there. |
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| 14:23:06 | <yushyin> | stevenxl: from the docs i understand that this should be possible https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/yaml_configuration/#extra-deps |
| 14:23:19 | <geekosaur> | not with a script, I think; you need a stack.yaml for that |
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| 14:23:42 | <stevenxl> | geekosaur: that's what I figured. Thank you. @yushyin thank you as well. |
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| 14:32:08 | <severen> | oops, ignore that haha |
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| 15:28:44 | <dsal> | lechner: Haskell In Depth covered a few SQL libs. There's always new stuff, though. Rel8 is the new hotness. Most of the time sqlite-simple feels about right to me. |
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| 15:56:37 | <lechner> | dsal: thanks! how about this one https://chrisdone.com/posts/haskelldb-tutorial/ |
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| 15:58:32 | <lechner> | dsal: i am on postgres btw |
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| 16:01:37 | <dsal> | I hear postgresql-simple is also good, but I've not got around to it. SQLite is the right tool for most of my needs these days. I'll spin up a postgres instance again soon, though, I'm sure. |
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| 16:05:26 | <dsal> | Rel8 is postgres specific. I generally think of databases as separate things from my applications, so I've never really tried fancy integrations. |
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| 16:05:54 | <janus> | hmm NickServ hasn't seen ski for two weeks. is this normal? |
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| 16:07:39 | <Hecate> | I don't even know where to reach him |
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| 17:14:20 | <lechner> | in some places, it's a popular time to go on vacation |
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| 17:47:34 | <DigitalKiwi> | maybe they went to the mountains |
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| 17:50:52 | <Guest51> | Since Haskell code is referentially transparent, a potential optimization could be that Haskell records functions inputs and outputs in some kind of lookup table and if the function is called with the same inputs that it has been called with previously instead of recomputing the value it could just return the output from its lookup table from a |
| 17:50:52 | <Guest51> | previous call. Does Haskell do anything like this? |
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| 17:52:19 | <Lycurgus> | there's a fallacy in your thinking, conflating values with variables |
| 17:52:46 | <Lycurgus> | i.e. typed variables |
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| 17:53:46 | <Guest51> | could you give an example? |
| 17:54:03 | <Lycurgus> | i will let others respond |
| 17:54:57 | <pavonia> | I don't even understand that objection |
| 17:54:59 | <spruit11> | it's called memoization and it's done usually in interpreters |
| 17:55:12 | <spruit11> | hugs did it. not sure about ghci |
| 17:55:28 | <spruit11> | maybe even ghc does it, dunno |
| 17:56:33 | <spruit11> | https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3951012/when-is-memoization-automatic-in-ghc-haskell |
| 17:56:39 | <Lycurgus> | memoization is not quite what Guest51 described |
| 17:57:07 | <Guest51> | Memoization seems to be what I’m talking about |
| 17:57:07 | <spruit11> | right, semantics are important |
| 17:57:31 | <Guest51> | From 2 minutes on wikipedia |
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| 18:22:50 | <asmit> | hello everyone |
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| 18:45:06 | <mikko> | anyone know of a good tutorial that explains "comparing" and "compare" and "on" functions? none of this is making any sense to me and the documentation is not great |
| 18:46:14 | <monochrom> | First make sense of "compare". This should not be difficult after you understand that it is similar to C's "strcmp" and Java and Scala's "compareTo", but better. |
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| 18:47:00 | <monochrom> | IMO there is no hurry in understanding "comparing" or "on" until you are thoroughly annoyed by problems that need them. |
| 18:47:23 | <monochrom> | This should be true of most tools. |
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| 18:47:54 | <mikko> | i find myself using minimumBy/maximumBy or sorting all the time and it's a major pain to get working every time because i don't understand these |
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| 18:49:40 | <monochrom> | In that case the code of "comparing" and "on" are the best explanation. Meaning, better than any wordy explanation. |
| 18:50:13 | <monochrom> | Because you're supposed to recognize that code matches something you have always repeated by hand. |
| 18:50:46 | <mikko> | coming from ruby i'm used to doing arr.min_by(&:abs), so i don't understand why the need for additional compare function |
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| 18:52:57 | <sm> | mikko, study the haddocks and play around with them in GHCI, especially with some real sorting code you need to write - it'll click |
| 18:53:29 | <sm> | there's no such tutorial, I'm guessing |
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| 18:56:32 | <sm> | actually, probably the best thing is to search haskell code on github for comparing, and look at examples |
| 18:57:26 | <[exa]> | mikko: does 'maximumBy (compare `on` abs)' look like the way? the 'compare' is there because it specifies that you expect your data to have Ord instances |
| 18:58:06 | <[exa]> | mikko: also in Data.List.Extra there's a definition for maximumOn that does precisely that |
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| 18:58:41 | <sm> | https://github.com/search?q=comparing+extension%3Ahs+language%3AHaskell&type=Code&ref=advsearch&l=Haskell&l= |
| 18:58:59 | <mikko> | hmm maximumOn might be what i'm looking for then |
| 18:59:03 | <[exa]> | mikko: in higher perspective, combining the functions is so cheap in haskell that people sometimes don't care to name/point out the combinations |
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| 18:59:33 | <monochrom> | So this is just once again two communities using the "same" word "by" for two conflicting meanings. |
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| 18:59:48 | <monochrom> | Generally don't trust "meaningful" names. |
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| 19:00:25 | [exa] | contacts Centralized Preposition Registry And Numbering Agency |
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| 19:00:30 | <c_wraith> | trust in parametricity |
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| 21:24:08 | <ixlun> | Is it possible to set all bytes to zero for memory created by `mallocForeignPtr`? |
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| 21:30:25 | <roboguy__> | ixlun: maybe you could using withForeignPtr and pokeArray? |
| 21:32:14 | <monochrom> | Look for Foreign.Marshal.Utils.fillBytes |
| 21:33:04 | <monochrom> | It wants Ptr, so combine with withForeignPtr |
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| 21:33:44 | <raehik> | is there a way I can find the path of an executable built by Cabal, to upload it on GitHub CI |
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| 21:34:01 | <raehik> | sadly I can't do it locally and replicate, because it's Windows :( |
| 21:34:38 | <ixlun> | Perfect, thanks! |
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| 21:40:52 | <lechner> | dsal: thanks for that Rel8 pointer. Cool stuff! |
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| 23:40:33 | <Axman6> | lechner: keep in mind Rel8 is relatively new and probably missing lots of features you'd want (I really wanted to to have great support for workking with JSON/JSONB data but so far not so much). The commbination of Opaleye's expresivness and Hasql's performance is very cool though |
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| 23:52:31 | <lechner> | Axman6: yeah, thanks! it's also easier to cut and paste SQL from the Perl programs. the Rel8 approach just looks cool. my programs work already. i came to haskell for cool! |
| 23:53:54 | <lechner> | (I may eventually need help with closing sockets in the ZeroMQ library though, which works less well.) |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-08-01.