Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2021-08-09 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:02:25 <lechner> sm: thanks! I will try that in a little while. i am still working on getting chat client to connect to matrix. can I convert this to a cabal.project? stack is fine for now, but I think i will ultimately have to use cabal
00:03:29 <sm> sure, you can
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00:08:09 <lechner> sm: how did you test it, please? did you discover something cool?
00:09:10 <sm> lechner: i just ran it and verified it shows up in browser, no more. but even that looked pretty cool
00:10:23 <lechner> sm: great, i can't wait! i have a few personal obligations
00:13:46 <sm> 👍🏻I'll give it another go too
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02:59:11 <lechner> sm: btw. i have some issues building on a constrained system with 1 G of RAM. Should GHC really need 600 MB to build?
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03:28:13 <dsal> It can take a lot. My phone has 8GB of RAM. :)
03:29:05 <c_wraith> It used to be the case that most build failures due to lack of memory were from the linker rather than ghc. But 1GB might make even compiling fail in some packages that overuse inlining
03:29:06 <Axman6> it's an advanced compiler compiling an advanced compiler, it's going to need quite a lot of resources to do that. 1GB hasn't been enough for that sort of task for years
03:32:00 <davean> lechner: uh, we usually consider 8GiB a minimum, but uh, you CAN do it with a lot less . . . you'll need j1, I think turning optimizations off will help ... uh, yah, it'll be a trip
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03:48:58 <lechner> Axman6: I'm just building emanote, not GHC. Sorry if that was unclear https://github.com/srid/emanote
03:52:07 <lechner> dsal: i should have guessed that people here run GHC on their phones!
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04:07:04 <Axman6> I'd love to have GHCi on my iPhone
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04:08:19 <euouae> Axman6: *crickets*
04:08:30 <euouae> The apple crickets
04:08:33 <Axman6> GHCiOS
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04:24:09 <dsal> Back when I ran PalmOS, I had a really great scheme system on my PDA/phone. I've not had any good mobile programming environment since.
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05:05:21 <keltono> sshing into a different machine (with tmux or a dedicated client) is pretty nice if you have an external keyboard -- I still think that programming on a touch screen in the general is an unsolved HCI problem
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05:05:50 <keltono> heck, tmux on its own isn't terrible (again, given you have an external kb)
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05:07:53 <Axman6> There is an iOS app called Textastic which does a great job making symbols really accessible (has a bunch of keys with five symbols per key, and you press and swipe to the desired one, feels really natural), but it's just a text editor, there's no running of code
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05:32:49 <Cajun> i wonder if there is a vim implentation on mobile.. sounds awful :P
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05:34:20 <Axman6> would be less awful than an Emacs implementation I think
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06:05:11 <dsal> I have a nice mosh client on my iPad.
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06:07:43 <euouae> I mean, I love apple, I just don't expect to be able to do anything serious with my phone ever
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06:16:23 <dsal> I *have* a nice mosh client . I've never actually done anything with it. The most actually useful thing I've done with my iPad is use it as a second display. I keep forgetting I can do that. Running a terminal over there while developing is pretty handy.
06:16:32 <dsal> Tonight was all C++, though, so that's unfortunate. ;(
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06:17:12 <Axman6> At least it wasn't scala
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06:24:28 <dibblego> Axman6 ♥ Scala
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06:33:04 <Cajun> i love java but its only because it was my first language; and python is a language ive always looked at but i hate the look of the syntax and the weak type system
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06:33:32 <Cajun> ...especially after knowing how helpful a real type system is lol
06:33:52 <dibblego> Cajun ♥ python
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06:34:52 <Cajun> some syntax decisions of python baffles me. like end-of-line for loops?? they just make reading the line confusing to all but those who wrote it
06:35:22 <Rembane> Cajun: What's en EOL for loop?
06:36:07 <Cajun> something like this, though this is a contrived example: `print [item for item in [1,2,3]]`
06:36:31 <Cajun> that prints, predictably, [1,2,3]
06:36:37 <Rembane> Oh, then you'll have to read it in the same way as you read Haskell.
06:36:58 <Cajun> well python does have list comprehensions, but they are more wordy instead of syntax-y
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06:37:31 <c_wraith> python's syntax is heavily based on words.
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06:41:30 <Cajun> yeah im not sure how much i like that design, it definitely doesnt click for me (but perhaps it does for others)
06:41:34 <dsal> Haskell has too many words, too. A boolean only needs one bit...
06:42:16 <Cajun> yeah thats a real shame that Bool needs to be a Word
06:42:23 <dsal> I can't remember how to python and I don't really want to anymore. It's always a bad time for me, but one that takes a whole to tell me that.
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06:43:04 <dsal> I liked python about ten years ago. I did cool stuff with twisted.
06:43:12 <Cajun> and any actual work done in python is always done in C, its too slow for any intensive applications lol
06:43:20 <dsal> I never liked java, though.
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06:43:53 <Cajun> i have a soft spot for java, it was the first language i learned ♥
06:44:09 <dsal> Even though I used to use jython to prototype my ideas...
06:44:24 <Cajun> what in the world is jython and do i want to know?
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06:45:14 <dsal> I learned java after writing a bunch of Eiffel so I got into it from the perspective of doing everything wrong. Then I learned smalltalk and found a new way they were doing everything wrong. Heh
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06:45:57 <dsal> Jython was a python implementation in java. Could use java classes as python classes and stuff.
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06:46:21 <dsal> Java doesn't repl very well on its own
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06:46:33 <Cajun> i do like thinking of the means of approaching a task in java and in haskell and how they differ. one that ive thought of recently is heterogeneous lists
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06:47:46 <Cajun> and specifically being of their lowest possible type, not all `Objects` , thats basically cheating :p
06:47:55 <dsal> The java way lets you defer as much as you want to runtime errors. :)
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06:48:31 <tomsmeding> lechner: compiling aeson and vector takes >2GB of ram in my experience, and the world depends on those things
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06:49:18 <dsal> Yeah. It was a little confusing for a while trying to figure out how to store values of different types in Haskell. I eventually just stopped wanting to do that. :)
06:50:19 <Cajun> the sad part is (afaik) you can only use HLists if they are known during compile time
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06:51:30 <Axman6> surely you could use singletons to have synamic ones, I feel like jle`'s posts on using the library given an example of being able to load what is essentially hlists at runtime
06:52:02 <tomsmeding> Cajun: pattern-matching on gadts gives you type information, so surely you can build and work with HLists at runtime
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06:53:06 <Cajun> well what about with just a lifted list and bog-standard types like `'[Int, Char, Identity (Maybe Bool)]`
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06:53:24 <Axman6> that's usually how we represent HLists these days
06:53:32 <Akronymus> What does the identity type actually do?
06:53:59 <Cajun> its useful when you want to stuff something in a monad (like with Repa's `computeP` )
06:54:07 <Axman6> data HList (xs :: [Type]) where HNil :: HList '[]; HCons :: a -> HList xs -> HList (x ': xs)
06:54:42 <Cajun> yeah thats what i figured Axman6 , and those can only be used when they are known during compile time
06:55:15 <Axman6> Akronymus: it's the trivial monad, it can be used in places whewre a function requires a monad but you don't need any monadic effects
06:55:21 <Axman6> Cajun: why do you say that?
06:55:36 <Axman6> It's not an unreasonable thing to say, but it's also not correct :P
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06:57:05 <tomsmeding> % data HList xs where HNil :: HList '[] ; HCons :: a -> HList xs -> HList (a ': xs)
06:57:06 <yahb> tomsmeding:
06:57:36 <Akronymus> Axman6 Thanks. So it basically turns the value into a function that returns the value?
06:57:37 <tomsmeding> % hlength :: HList xs -> Int ; hlength HNil = 0 ; hlength (HCons _ xs) = 1 + hlength xs
06:57:37 <yahb> tomsmeding:
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06:57:49 <Axman6> % :t HCons 'x' (HCons True HNil)
06:57:49 <yahb> Axman6: HList '[Char, Bool]
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06:58:07 <Cajun> idk why but i remember reading that, maybe it was on something else
06:58:12 <tomsmeding> % data Some f where Some :: f a -> Some f
06:58:12 <yahb> tomsmeding:
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06:59:09 <tomsmeding> % hrep :: Int -> a -> Some HList ; hrep 0 _ = Some HNil ; hrep n x = case hrep (n-1) x of Some xs -> Some (HCons x xs)
06:59:09 <yahb> tomsmeding:
06:59:38 <tomsmeding> % case hrep 5 'a' of Some xs -> hlength xs
06:59:38 <yahb> tomsmeding: 5
06:59:44 <tomsmeding> Cajun: runtime hlists!
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07:00:33 <Cajun> well thats abusing existentials isnt it?
07:00:37 <tomsmeding> hrep produces an hlist of unknown type list, so I have to either hide the type parameter with an existential, like I do with Some here, or use CPS
07:00:44 <Cajun> cheater :P
07:01:00 <Axman6> that's basically the whole point, to use existentials
07:01:27 <tomsmeding> % hrep' :: Int -> a -> (forall xs. HList xs -> r) -> r ; hrep 0 _ k = k HNil ; hrep n x k = hrep (n-1) x $ \xs -> k (HCons x xs)
07:01:27 <yahb> tomsmeding: ; <interactive>:92:1: error:; The type signature for hrep' lacks an accompanying binding; Perhaps you meant `hrep' (Defined at <interactive>:92:56)
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07:01:43 <tomsmeding> % hrep' :: Int -> a -> (forall xs. HList xs -> r) -> r ; hrep' 0 _ k = k HNil ; hrep' n x k = hrep (n-1) x $ \xs -> k (HCons x xs)
07:01:43 <yahb> tomsmeding: ; <interactive>:93:93: error:; * Couldn't match expected type: (HList xs0 -> r) -> r; with actual type: Some HList; * The first argument of ($) takes one value argument, but its type `Some HList' has none; In the expression: hrep (n - 1) x $ \ xs -> k (HCons x xs); In an equation for hrep': hrep' n x k = hrep (n - 1) x $ \ xs -> k (HCons x xs); * Relevant binding
07:01:49 <Cajun> i know you can do that with Vectors and `Any` along with managing the type level list intact and identical with the vector along with a bit of `unsafeCoerce`
07:02:04 <tomsmeding> % hrep' :: Int -> a -> (forall xs. HList xs -> r) -> r ; hrep' 0 _ k = k HNil ; hrep' n x k = hrep' (n-1) x $ \xs -> k (HCons x xs)
07:02:04 <yahb> tomsmeding:
07:02:22 <tomsmeding> % hrep' 5 'a' (\xs -> hlength xs)
07:02:22 <yahb> tomsmeding: 5
07:02:26 <tomsmeding> Cajun: better? :P
07:02:39 <tomsmeding> Also existentials != unsafeCoerce
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07:03:09 <Cajun> i never meant that, i just meant that you can get the type back by managing a typelevel list and a list of existentials
07:03:17 <Cajun> not the type the value*
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07:04:03 <tomsmeding> If you already know what type is in there, you mean?
07:04:12 <Cajun> yup! :)
07:04:14 <tomsmeding> Otherwise you don't know what to unsafeCoerce to
07:04:38 <tomsmeding> Can also put a TypeRep in the HList with it
07:05:07 <Axman6> superrecord uses a SmallArray Any under the hood, so you avoid the linear overhead of an actual linked list
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07:05:12 <Cajun> im thinking of a specific example of OpenProducts and this function: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/hHTlYqIL
07:05:23 <Axman6> and IIRC generics-sop is looking at doing the same thing
07:06:42 <Cajun> tomsmeding: like a tuple of the TypeRep and Existential?
07:07:26 <tomsmeding> Well, using an HList1
07:08:00 <tomsmeding> % data HList1 f xs where HNil1 :: HList1 f '[] ; HCons :: f a -> HList1 f xs -> HList1 f (a ': xs)
07:08:00 <yahb> tomsmeding:
07:08:10 <tomsmeding> Oh crap shadowing HCons now
07:08:33 <tomsmeding> Then put in something that pairs a value with a something describing its type
07:09:57 <Cajun> man type level stuff sometimes throws me for a loop, so many extensions to remember and its just so different from anything else lol
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07:11:14 <tomsmeding> Also, real runtime use case of plain HList (so not HList1): expression evaluation on an type-safe AST represented with a GADT
07:11:19 <tomsmeding> A tagless evaluator
07:11:26 <tomsmeding> The environment is an HList then
07:11:58 <Cajun> that sounds like a rabbit hole to go down
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07:20:46 <tomsmeding> Cajun: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/gYPEH9iY
07:21:05 <tomsmeding> note that this is _the_ tired overused example of GADTs
07:21:41 <tomsmeding> and you can make the language much more complex thant STLC if you want :)
07:21:56 <tomsmeding> https://github.com/AccelerateHS/accelerate/blob/master/src/Data/Array/Accelerate/AST.hs#L230
07:25:10 <Cajun> thats awesome
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07:26:40 <Axman6> Once day, I'm going to make a library which combines Accelerate and Grenade and call it RPG, but I would have to understand both libraries much better than I currently do first XD
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07:26:44 <Axman6> One*
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07:27:09 <zyklotomic> is there a way to add newtypes support to an IntMap?
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07:27:39 <zyklotomic> i am not sure whato call this, but say newtype Vertex = Vertex Int
07:27:40 <tomsmeding> Axman6: I'm working on automatic differentiation for accelerate, so in the future that part might also be there :p
07:27:53 <Axman6> tomsmeding: <3 :O
07:28:00 <Axman6> please take my idea and run with it
07:28:06 <tomsmeding> lol
07:28:11 tomsmeding knows very little about DL
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07:28:45 <tomsmeding> zyklotomic: you can make a custom wrapper for an IntMap that can work with any type k such that 'Coerce k Int'
07:28:48 <mastarija> How is Haskell IDE (or now language server) these days? Does it still require me to compile a version for each version of GHC I use?
07:29:09 <Axman6> mastarija: no, you just ghcup to install it
07:29:12 <tomsmeding> mastarija: yes, but ghcup does that for you
07:29:23 <tomsmeding> or, well, ghcup has precompiled versions that you just download :p
07:29:27 <mastarija> what about windows :D
07:29:35 <tomsmeding> but a separate executable for each ghc version
07:29:37 <Axman6> Just don't :P
07:29:40 <mastarija> I've seen there's ghcup for it now
07:29:44 <tomsmeding> doesn't ghcup run on windows?
07:29:50 <Cajun> tomsmeding: what is automatic differentiation? that sounds really cool yet really complex lol
07:29:51 <mastarija> Don't know
07:30:16 <mastarija> I manually manage my GHCs, and I've been using ghcid and repl for my development so far
07:30:20 <tomsmeding> Cajun: given a program that implements a function Double -> Double, produce a program that implements the numerical derivative of that function
07:30:32 <tomsmeding> and then generalised to arrays/tuples of doubles on both sides
07:30:46 <zyklotomic> tomsmeding: wait, what i think iwant, is to restrict the intmap to a specific newtype
07:31:17 <zyklotomic> i think that is slightly different
07:31:19 <tomsmeding> Cajun: the backpropagation algorithm for neural networks is a special case of applying AD on the forward computation function for the network
07:31:34 <Cajun> mastarija: why not use WSL for haskell/programming?
07:31:45 <Cajun> its pretty painless aside from the initial setup
07:31:53 <Axman6> zyklotomic: newtype MyIntMap a = MyIntMap (IntMap a), and then things like insert become insert = coerce (IntMap.insert)
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07:32:41 <mastarija> Cajun: I use it for certain things, but It's annoying to live within the subsystem and its file system
07:32:49 <tomsmeding> where you can e.g. choose insert :: Vertex -> a -> MyIntMap a -> MyIntMap a
07:32:58 <mastarija> If I use an OS I prefer to do stuff in it, not some VM
07:32:59 <Cajun> tomsmeding: that doesnt sound easy :p , so its basically like getting `Num a -> a -> a` out of `Double -> Double` along with other derivations if im understanding you correctly?
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07:34:09 <tomsmeding> Cajun: you can implement AD as a source-code transformation (e.g. what Tensorflow XLA does), or as a more runtime-oriented thing based on program instrumentation (e.g. what Tensorflow Eager and PyTorch do iirc)
07:34:24 <tomsmeding> I can explain more if you wish, but perhaps move to #haskell-offtopic then :p
07:34:24 <Cajun> mastarija: thats fair, the hassle is real when moving files from windows to WSL
07:34:48 <mastarija> Cajun: + haskell works very well on windows, I have no complaints. Main reason I don't use language server is because it is tied to a specific GHC version
07:35:01 <zyklotomic> Axman6, tomsmeding: thanks, i get it now, and that seems to be the EnumMap package
07:35:01 <mastarija> ghcid doesn't really mind
07:35:27 <tomsmeding> Axman6: ah Grenade seems to already implement AD
07:35:36 <Cajun> tomsmeding: thats going way above my understanding of CS/DL so it would probably be like talking to a brick wall lol
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07:36:00 <tomsmeding> I have a nice simple example for it :)
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07:36:07 <tomsmeding> also it's not DL at all
07:36:23 <tomsmeding> like, I previously said that I know almost nothing about DL, and yet I'm doing a PhD that relates to AD
07:36:35 <Cajun> oh nice, then go ahead and send it in #haskell-offtopic :)
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07:55:13 <timCF> Hello! Is there any "standard" type in Haskell similar to `Either a b` but which represents 3 options, not just 2?
07:56:04 <tomsmeding> Axman6: grenade looks pretty cool; from my brief look, I think writing an accelerate backend for that would involve extending the Layer class to have run functions that live within the Accelerate EDSL
07:56:44 <Taneb> timCF: there's nothing like that in base and I don't think there's a commonly accepted alternative
07:56:57 <timCF> Taneb: thanks!
07:57:09 <Taneb> You could do Either (Either a b) c
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08:07:41 <Akronymus> I personally would make a new type named something like OneOfThree which has 3 possible values.
08:08:00 <Akronymus> Altough, I don't really know much if anything.
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08:09:43 <tomsmeding> data France a b c = Blue a | White b | Red c
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10:05:58 <kuribas> is there no library to read/write odf?
10:06:04 <kuribas> (open document format)
10:06:26 <kuribas> I only found a java library
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10:07:52 <maerwald[m]> Java libraries are usually rock solid, I'd go with that
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10:15:27 <Arahael> Curious, that :)
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10:19:56 <[exa]> kuribas: unzip
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10:22:05 <kuribas> [exa]: and then? :-P
10:23:32 <kuribas> parse a big XML?
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10:28:18 <kuribas> hmm "content.xml, the most important file, carries the actual content of the document (except for binary data, such as images). The base format is inspired by HTML, and though far more complex, it should be reasonably legible to humans:"
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10:44:26 <[exa]> kuribas: "reasonably legible to humans" is likely as with the rest of XML :D
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10:45:06 <[exa]> btw can't you convert to RTF, do the stuff with pandoc, and convert back?
10:46:06 <lechner> tomsmeding: thanks!
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11:29:35 <tromp> how do i output the unicode character λ from my Haskell code? ghci says 'λ' is '\955' but that comes out as ? on my console
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11:30:20 <bitdex> /exit/exit
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11:30:43 <merijn> tromp: Because ghci goes through show
11:31:01 <merijn> tromp: And show does escaping
11:31:15 <merijn> Compare lambdabot's behaviour:
11:31:18 <merijn> > "λ"
11:31:19 <lambdabot> "\955"
11:31:21 <merijn> > text "λ"
11:31:23 <lambdabot> λ
11:31:47 <tromp> how to put that lambda in a string literal?
11:31:52 <merijn> Or, locally, compare the result of: 'print "λ"' and 'putStrLn "λ"'
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11:32:13 <hpc> if it's coming out as ?, it's not string escaping - are you on windows using cmd.exe or something?
11:32:18 <merijn> tromp: You can just write it in a string literal, but you gotta make sure you are calling *show* on strings
11:32:26 <merijn> ah, wait
11:32:27 <tromp> no, i'm on MacOS
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11:32:33 <merijn> tromp: Oh!
11:32:40 <merijn> tromp: Your locale is fucked
11:32:53 <merijn> tromp: Because there's no sensible one configured by default in macOS
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11:33:06 <merijn> tromp: Pastebin the output of running "locale" in your shell
11:33:18 <tromp> so i can cut and paste lambdas fine but not output them from a program??
11:33:40 <merijn> tromp: You can, when you configure your shell to not be broken :p
11:33:47 <tromp> LANG="en_US.UTF-8"
11:33:48 <tromp> LC_COLLATE="en_US.UTF-8"
11:33:48 <tromp> LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
11:33:48 <tromp> LC_MESSAGES="en_US.UTF-8"
11:33:48 <tromp> LC_MONETARY="en_US.UTF-8"
11:33:48 <tromp> LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8"
11:33:49 <tromp> LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8"
11:33:49 <tromp> LC_ALL=
11:34:24 <merijn> On my mac I have "LC_ALL" set to "en_US.UTF-8" too
11:34:45 <[exa]> tromp: you might want to pastebin the multiline pastes
11:35:05 <merijn> (and double check in Terminal.app settings under "Profiles -> Advanced" to ensure the text encoding is UTF-8)
11:35:26 <merijn> tromp: You should try running: export LC_ALL="en_US.UTF-8"
11:35:31 <merijn> and check if it works then
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11:36:11 <tromp> no, still comes out as ?
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11:36:44 <tromp> @exa, i would have for longer pastes but this seems still barely acceptable
11:37:12 <hpc> maybe LANGUAGE=en_US:en
11:37:34 <hpc> (i have that on linux)
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11:38:40 <[exa]> tromp: well yeah, but be careful with that, anything over 2 lines is frowned upon on IRC :]
11:39:03 <tromp> thanks, will try to keep that in mind...
11:39:46 <[exa]> like, not a problem now, but when the channel is busy and people start pasting stuff, it becomes really unusuable
11:42:40 <hpc> maybe it's not the locale, it's a terminal emulator setting?
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11:44:00 <merijn> tromp: Did you check the Terminal.app settings like I said?
11:44:14 <merijn> Also, how are you outputting?
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11:45:08 <tromp> where do i find Profiles?
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11:45:10 <timCF> Hello guys! I have a very strange question. I do have a friend of my age ~30 years who is interested in learning programming, but he never was professional software developer. He is asking advise which language to use to learn programming. Of cource we all know that Haskell is the ultimate destination for every software developer - once developer did tried it for real, there is no way back. But I'm
11:45:16 <timCF> thinking does it make sense for a person to use Haskell as a first programming language? Of course it saves him time to avoid re-learning in the future, but maybe software developer **have to personally** feel absence or sum-types, errors like NullPointerException, "undefined is not a function", callback hells etc to actually **value** Haskell?
11:45:31 <merijn> timCF: Depends on his goals
11:46:19 <merijn> timCF: FWIW, I made my girlfriend learn Haskell as first real programming language (she had a very small amount of experience with obscure, proprietary simulation languages from geoscience) and it went fine, imo
11:46:47 <tromp> i'm doing putString "... \955 ..."
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11:47:52 <merijn> What is putString?
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11:48:39 <tromp> sorry, meant putStrLnm
11:48:46 <tromp> putStrLn
11:49:22 <tromp> oh, maybe it's because I do hSetBinaryMode stdout True ?
11:49:53 <tromp> btw, Terminal Preferences -> Advanced shows Text encoding Unicode (UTF-8)
11:49:54 <timCF> merijn: He wants to change job from oil industry to more pleasant software development. Salary is important, but he definitely is ready to sacrifice some part of it initially. He said important part is having good courses and job offers. I'm not sure about good Haskell courses for beginners, as well as junior Haskell job offers (have never seen them).
11:50:00 <merijn> tromp: Eh, yes
11:50:15 <merijn> hSetBinaryMode sets encoding to char8, according to the docs
11:50:31 <merijn> tromp: So that will turn all non-ascii into garbage
11:50:46 <merijn> Not sure what you were expecting :p
11:50:52 <tromp> ah, let me try without that then
11:50:52 <hpc> huh, i would have figured that would just affect windows newlines
11:51:04 <merijn> hpc: "This has the same effect as calling hSetEncoding with char8, together with hSetNewlineMode with noNewlineTranslation."
11:51:42 <tromp> ok, got my lambdas now!
11:52:12 <tromp> funny; crypto ppl want lambos; I'm happy just with lambdas :-)
11:55:14 <tomsmeding> timCF: recommending Haskell as a first programming language to someone who values a career doesn't sound like an amazing idea
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11:55:59 <tomsmeding> unless he's ready to spend a very large amount of time to become basically an experienced software developer before getting a good job :p
11:56:23 <tomsmeding> but I can't speak from experience here, so take what I say with a grain of salt
11:58:08 <timCF> tomsmeding: there is no right answer, thanks for sharing your opinion!
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12:00:19 <timCF> I came to Haskell from Erlang, and transition was relatively easy. So simple untyped language like Erlang, Lua or Python might work for him as well.
12:01:16 <timCF> Just to get started. But this might go very wrong as well, haha.
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12:01:28 <hpc> i think either way an employer is going to have to be understanding of him being very new to programming
12:02:03 <merijn> otoh
12:02:07 <hpc> the difference between "knows a bit of the language the job uses, but nothing else" and "knows a bit of some other language, but nothing else" isn't that much
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12:02:37 <hpc> so might as well try and solve the "but nothing else" problem faster instead
12:03:01 <merijn> My girlfriend did an 8 month intense course to get a bachelor in programming and that program had her already hired before she finished (in the condition of graduating, that is)
12:03:35 <merijn> So, at least over here you can pretty easily get a job with no experience if you have even a bit of aptitude :p
12:04:02 <timCF> merijn: You said she is using Haskell? What university is this?
12:04:10 <merijn> Naah, that's unrelated :p
12:04:25 <merijn> That program was Java, because, duh :p
12:04:40 <timCF> Ah, I see. Just hoped that there are some valuable Haskell courses for beginners)
12:04:42 <merijn> But I was teaching her Haskell in the months before
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12:06:33 <merijn> timCF: It was a program started by a bunch of IT companies struggling to hire people together with some of the "university" of applied sciences (for lack of a better term) based on their 4 year bachelor program
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12:22:46 <kuribas> Is there a named Monad that is equivalent to (,)?
12:23:07 <kuribas> to (a,) I mean.
12:23:09 <earthy> Interesting. We set up such a program ourselves... and we do teach a bit of Haskell...
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12:23:46 <[exa]> kuribas: Const and Writer are kinda similar, in ways
12:23:54 <[exa]> (random thought ^)
12:23:55 <merijn> kuribas: Eh, that's Writer :p
12:24:03 <kuribas> ah right :-)
12:24:14 <earthy> (then again, our program is 18 months, not 8, and we hire people into the program)
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12:25:12 <merijn> earthy: Well, this program has a bunch of in-take meetings and a job fair with prospective employers and you only really get to start if one of them already agreed to hire you at the start, it seems to work out fairly well
12:25:38 <earthy> sounds like a bootcamp-like program done reasonably well
12:25:57 <kuribas> no, because "WriterT [Int] Maybe" is equal to Maybe ([Int], a), not ([Int], Maybe a)
12:26:08 <kuribas> The second I am interested in...
12:28:15 <earthy> AccumT?
12:28:56 <earthy> Still not what you want.
12:28:59 <merijn> kuribas: Sounds like you just want State, tbh
12:29:07 earthy nods
12:29:25 <kuribas> > liftA2 (liftA2 (+)) ([1], Nothing) ([2::Int], Just 1)
12:29:27 <lambdabot> ([1,2],Nothing)
12:29:40 <kuribas> > liftA2 (liftA2 (+)) ([1], Just 1) ([2::Int], Just 1)
12:29:42 <lambdabot> ([1,2],Just 2)
12:29:47 <kuribas> I want this ^^
12:30:28 <[exa]> kuribas: isn't that more like MaybeT (Writer [Int]) ?
12:30:58 <kuribas> [exa]: ah right!
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12:35:59 <kuribas> Doesn't MaybeT stops writing after Nothing?
12:36:06 <kuribas> MaybeT Writer
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12:37:09 <kuribas> That would give ([1], Nothing) then
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12:39:33 <dibblego> so does what you want ^^
12:39:48 <kuribas> dibblego: no, I want ([1, 2], Nothing)
12:40:25 <kuribas> ah, that cannot be a Monad then...
12:41:26 <dibblego> data M a = M [Int] (Maybe a); instance Monoid M where...
12:41:27 <earthy> You want an arrow, and &&&
12:41:40 <earthy> or some such
12:43:28 <kuribas> Writer Int (Maybe a) ...
12:43:48 <kuribas> :t Const
12:43:49 <lambdabot> forall k a (b :: k). a -> Const a b
12:44:14 <earthy> Do you need it to be a monad? Can you get away with relaxing some of the laws? :)
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12:45:22 <kuribas> earthy: yeah, I cannot even be a monad, because I need to collect the errors (or warnings).
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12:46:19 <merijn> kuribas: Do you don't just want Validation?
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12:46:49 <merijn> kuribas: Which is the Applicative version of Either that aggregates errors (instead of returning the first)
12:47:03 <stoicswe[m]> V
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12:47:22 <kuribas> merijn: I am parsing a csv, so I want to collect the original rows, and add an error collumn if the parsing fails.
12:47:37 <merijn> kuribas: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/either-5.0.1.1/docs/Data-Either-Validation.html
12:47:55 <stoicswe[m]> Whoops, sorry for the random ‘V’ there. I accidentally sent that.
12:48:12 <earthy> still not a monad though. ;P
12:48:34 <earthy> (and Validation is the exact use case indeed)
12:49:02 <kuribas> so I have ([originalCsv], Just parsedField) or ([addError originalCsv], Nothing)
12:49:18 <merijn> These? :p
12:49:29 <merijn> That lets you aggregate errors *and* a result :p
12:49:31 <kuribas> merijn: no, These also stops with an error.
12:50:09 <merijn> kuribas: It doesn't
12:50:13 <merijn> Only on *some* errors
12:50:57 <kuribas> merijn: "This a" will stop he computation right?
12:51:16 <kuribas> but ([1], Nothing) doesn't
12:51:16 <merijn> kuribas: Yes, errors should be "These a defaultValue"
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12:52:21 <kuribas> There is no default value
12:52:36 <kuribas> result is Nothing if there is a single error.
12:52:52 <kuribas> But still all original csv rows need to be aggregated.
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14:32:51 <kuribas> I'll take "Writer [CSV] (Maybe a)", as merijn Suggested, since it's more descriptive then (CSV, Maybe a)
14:35:45 <maerwald[m]> how does viewpattern desugar in an argument `foo (fun -> a) = ...`?
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14:43:14 <kuribas> foo fa = case fun fa of a -> ...
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14:44:31 <merijn> That's what I'd assume, yes
14:45:03 <merijn> Although I wonder why it'd matter? Because that seems like it'd only matter in very contrived situations
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14:51:04 <maerwald[m]> I was wondering if it could affect inlining
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14:52:16 <merijn> Probably
14:52:26 <merijn> Everything can affect inlining xD
14:52:33 <maerwald[m]> ...
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15:01:05 <kuribas> > traverse Compose [([1::Int], Just (1::Int)), ([2], Nothing), ([3], Just 3)]
15:01:06 <lambdabot> error:
15:01:06 <lambdabot> • Data constructor not in scope:
15:01:06 <lambdabot> Compose :: ([Int], Maybe Int) -> f b
15:01:17 <kuribas> lambdabot: you disappoint me...
15:01:36 <kuribas> > import Data.Functor.Compose
15:01:37 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘import’
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15:01:54 <geekosaur> @let import Data.Functor.Compose
15:01:56 <lambdabot> Defined.
15:02:20 <geekosaur> although yahb might work better here
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15:03:39 <raehik> Is there a way to run the C preprocessor on a Happy .y file *before* Happy processes it? In a Stack or Cabal project
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15:03:53 <geekosaur> > traverse Compose [([1::Int], Just (1::Int)), ([2], Nothing), ([3], Just 3)]
15:03:55 <raehik> or otherwise any idea on how to modularise multiple Happy parsers that share components
15:03:55 <lambdabot> Compose ([1,2,3],Nothing)
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15:15:17 <kuribas> runWriter $ getCompose $ traverse Compose [tell [1::Int] >> pure (Just (1::Int)), tell [2] >> pure Nothing, tell [3] >> pure (Just 3)]
15:15:19 <kuribas> > runWriter $ getCompose $ traverse Compose [tell [1::Int] >> pure (Just (1::Int)), tell [2] >> pure Nothing, tell [3] >> pure (Just 3)]
15:15:21 <lambdabot> (Nothing,[1,2,3])
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15:52:01 <Gurkenglas> stack install lens said a module interface file was corrupt, i deleted it and it said it was missing, i deleted the entire containing ghc folder and it said it could not find sandboxed compiler, how should i recover?
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15:52:54 <c_wraith> at that point... delete the whole stack directory?
15:53:14 <tomsmeding> kuribas: view patterns can't desugar like that, right, because they can let the pattern match go to the next definition clause if the view pattern fails
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15:54:38 <merijn> tomsmeding: So? Just nest cases
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15:55:02 <merijn> tomsmeding: You can desugar to pattern guards fairly easily
15:55:07 <geekosaur> and in any case multiple definitions desugar the same way
15:55:15 <geekosaur> so it can combine them
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15:55:32 <merijn> "foo (bar -> Just x) = ..." -> "foo y | Just x <- bar y = ..."
15:55:52 <tomsmeding> merijn: but then you need to desugar all the arms of a case expression into nested cases as well, if there are view patterns
15:55:57 <tomsmeding> It works I guess
15:56:12 <tomsmeding> Yeah it should be the same as pattern guards
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15:57:32 <tomsmeding> I think I recall that the new pattern matching algorithm in ghc (something something guards?) explicitly handles either view patterns or pattern guards
15:57:34 <Gurkenglas> merijn, what if bar takes two arguments
15:57:58 <tomsmeding> Ah, "lower your guards" it wad
15:58:01 <tomsmeding> *was
15:59:22 <tomsmeding> Actually it seems its source syntax (fig. 1) has both explicit view patterns and explicit pattern guards, with no desugaring yet
16:00:10 <merijn> Gurkenglas: then you can't do it with ViewPatterns (the first case)
16:00:17 <tomsmeding> And they desugar everything to something resembling pattern guards, it seems
16:00:35 <merijn> Gurkenglas: In the 2nd pattern guards example it "Just Works" (assuming you pass the 2nd argument from somewhere)
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16:01:18 <Gurkenglas> ah, ViewPatterns is justified by x being a record of which bar is a field?
16:01:29 <Gurkenglas> y being a record, rather
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16:02:27 <tomsmeding> "(e -> p)" is a pattern for type t if e is an expression of type t -> t' and p is a pattern for type t'
16:02:43 <tomsmeding> And the resulting bindings are those from p, of course
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16:07:48 <merijn> Gurkenglas: ViewPatterns allows arbitrary functions to be applied to an argument before matching
16:08:06 <Gurkenglas> stack install ghcide says "try adding the following to your extra-deps" https://paste.tomsmeding.com/K8tfYaJS but my installation of ghcide should not be reflected in the helloworld project, since it's just local ide tooling. What should I do?
16:08:20 <merijn> Gurkenglas: It's basically "before pattern matching this function argument, apply function bar, then match the results"
16:08:43 <merijn> Gurkenglas: I don't use stack, but I recall that "stack install" is basically always the wrong command >.>
16:10:03 <dsal> Yeah, even when 'stack install' is the right command, it feels quite wrong.
16:10:21 <Gurkenglas> How do I use stack to install something?
16:10:46 <Gurkenglas> googling finds me guides on how to install stack :3
16:11:27 <dsal> One question up.... What are you trying to do?
16:11:32 <geekosaur> you only 'stack install' executables, basically
16:12:16 <Gurkenglas> dsal, I'm trying to have an IDE for haskell, currently attempting vscode with haskell-language-server
16:12:24 <AnselmSchler[m]> stack install just builds and then writes the binaries to local-bin-path (check with stack paths, usually ~/.local/bin)
16:12:36 <Gurkenglas> geekosaur, ghcide is an executable :)
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16:13:00 <dsal> Oh, you're trying to install hls? I've never actually succeeded in that. You probably do want to install the program, though.
16:13:12 <Gurkenglas> What program?
16:13:19 <dsal> AnselmSchler[m]: People get confused when they try to install libraries.
16:13:22 <dsal> Gurkenglas: The language server.
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16:13:39 <merijn> ghcup ships pre-built binaries of HLS and so do several package managers
16:13:40 <dsal> Which I've failed to actually ever get working, so I'm whatever the opposite of an authority on that is.
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16:14:38 <AnselmSchler[m]> dsal: I mean, stack automatically downloads libraries, unless you’re seeking runtime deps
16:14:38 <AnselmSchler[m]> …do shared object files not get copied? or are they not available from .local/bin?
16:15:11 <dsal> AnselmSchler[m]: Some people think that if they want to use lens in a project, they need to 'stack install lens'
16:15:25 <Gurkenglas> hls did that on its own when I opened a vscode folder that was a stack project with the hls vscode extension installed, i think, though it gave a ghcide error https://paste.tomsmeding.com/9kR1aGdj and told me to make sure i use the project's ghc to compile ghcide
16:15:26 <dsal> It simultaneously doesn't solve the problem and makes things a little worse.
16:15:31 <AnselmSchler[m]> ah OK
16:15:41 <srid[m]> <sm> "hi srid, we wondered why you..." <- nix shouldn't be a strict requirement after 1.0 release to hackage.
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16:16:25 <Gurkenglas> dsal, if "stack install lens" is basically never right because lens is a library, shouldnt it give a warning to this effect?
16:16:28 <sm> srid: cool
16:16:34 <merijn> Nix shouldn't be a strict requirement ever :p
16:16:46 <srid[m]> <sm> "lechner, I got it to build..." <- yea, those libraries need to be released to hackage once out of dev phase. then a simple 'cabal install' should work
16:16:55 <AnselmSchler[m]> Gurkenglas: good idea, cabal does this with libraries
16:17:10 <Gurkenglas> i did just run stack install lens...
16:17:14 <srid[m]> well, except heist which is a fork - need to convince upstream to merge that small change
16:17:22 <sm> Gurkenglas: I think you should be letting vscode haskell extension doing the installing
16:17:32 <Gurkenglas> because i thought "that always takes a while, might as well do it now on the side"
16:17:40 <dsal> Gurkenglas: That'd be polite. There's probably someone out there who wants that behavior.
16:17:53 <AnselmSchler[m]> Can you use the Nix build system outside of NixOS? Or, even, are the two unrelated?
16:17:55 <Gurkenglas> sm, that gave an error though. maybe because of the years old history of this machine.
16:18:05 <AnselmSchler[m]> (I’m using an Ubuntu derivative)
16:18:13 <sm> best to figure that out I'd say.. #haskell-ide-engine has all the devs
16:18:39 <sm> #haskell-language-server, sorry
16:18:51 <Gurkenglas> yeah they appear to have made good use of the libera stuff
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16:19:42 <Gurkenglas> havent received a reply in the past 3 hours, so i thought id ask the non-hls version of the question here :)
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16:20:00 <sm> fair enough
16:20:07 <sm> they'll wake up soon
16:20:25 <sm> in vs code Output -> Haskell pane you can see diagnostics from hls
16:20:34 <sm> I'd check for errors there and search the hls tracker
16:20:39 <Gurkenglas> maybe i should just delete everything haskell-related except what was manually written by me and then reinstall. is there a command for that?
16:21:02 <sm> rm -rf ~/{.cabal,.stack,.ghc} if you really don't care...
16:21:21 <sm> but there might be some config in there worth keeping
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16:21:44 <Gurkenglas> I'm on Windows :P
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16:22:10 <schuelermine[m]> sm: also don’t forget rm ~/.ghcup if you use GHCup
16:22:18 <sm> have you tried this in a brand new project ?
16:23:21 <Gurkenglas> yeah current project is called helloworld, but i was also right in the process of trying again with hello2world in case i made it worse
16:24:10 <sm> stack new foo, latest vscode, latest haskell extension <- should just work
16:24:54 <schuelermine> Gurkenglas: where does GHCup, Cabal, Stack, GHC store config and cache on Windows? %APPDATA%/…?
16:24:54 <Gurkenglas> and the primary folder i open in vscode needs to be the project folder, yes?
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16:25:07 <Gurkenglas> schuelermine, who knows?
16:25:19 <Gurkenglas> stack should have a command for cleaning all of it up :)
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16:25:43 <schuelermine[m]> same with cabal
16:25:43 <schuelermine[m]> it’s a shame
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16:27:53 <Gurkenglas> "stack nuke"
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16:29:16 <schuelermine[m]> I mean not even removing everything
16:29:16 <schuelermine[m]> just garbage collection so drives don’t get stuffed with unused packages
16:29:43 <Gurkenglas> (which compresses all of those folders into a diff file to what would be generated automatically, so that the babbys first .hs you wrote 10 years ago stays in the archives)
16:31:13 <Gurkenglas> But maybe "stack, I would like a sysadmin to be unable to tell whether there was ever a haskeller on this machine."
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16:32:37 <schuelermine[m]> well that’d be called stack uninstall-stack if I got to name it
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16:37:04 <Gurkenglas> Alright so vscode finds no updates, hls is on 1.6.0, I did stack new foo, opened that folder in a new window, i ctrl-click on someFunc and it does nothing
16:37:51 <sm> schuelermine: stack-clean-old is not built in, but good
16:37:52 <Gurkenglas> There is a suggestion to replace import Lib with import Lib ( someFunc ) so it's not completely dead
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16:38:33 <Gurkenglas> sm, is stack install stack-clean-old correct in this case?
16:39:06 <sm> yup, though usually best to run that in your home directory (to avoid a project-specific resolver)
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16:39:38 <Gurkenglas> unix needed :D
16:39:56 <geekosaur> root of the drive, then
16:40:19 <sm> Gurkenglas: where do you see that ?
16:40:19 <Gurkenglas> no, i mean, stack install stack-clean-old tells me to add unix to my extra-deps.
16:40:52 <Gurkenglas> They should say "Some different approaches to resolving this:" when there's actually more than one approach ._.
16:40:57 <sm> I don't think that advice is right
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16:41:39 <sm> ah maybe it is. stack-clean-old depends on extra which depends on unix (not unix-compat). Sorry
16:41:43 <sm> afk
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16:45:38 <Gurkenglas> goto-definition did work in one of the previous helloworlds. stack build didnt make it start working. it works within the file but not across files.
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16:50:37 <Gurkenglas> restarting the hls server gives this output, which doesn't seem right. https://paste.tomsmeding.com/MQUCkhpo
16:50:46 <Gurkenglas> (if i dont have a .hs open)
16:52:30 <Gurkenglas> the "Haskell" vscode extension says it's on version 1.6.0, but the hls output says it's hls 1.3.0.0
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16:57:14 <Gurkenglas> When I do the same thing in WSL, the same thing happens - apparently it wasn't because of windows
16:57:26 <Gurkenglas> except that this time goto-definition also doesn't work within-file.
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17:07:30 <lechner> srid[m] sm: Hi, any ideas what i can do about these compilation errors for 'ema' using only cabal.project (and not stack)? Thanks! https://paste.debian.net/1207061/
17:08:35 <lechner> srid[m]: I am now also on Matrix now but it's very new for me.
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17:11:25 <schuelermine[m]> matrix is super cool
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17:12:36 <dminuoso> lechner: Which part of it confuses you?
17:12:48 <dminuoso> lechner: Try reading the error carefully, see if you can make out what the issue is.
17:12:58 <dminuoso> I think these errors are very verbose, explicit and obvious.
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17:16:16 <Clint> dminuoso: it may tell him what the issue is but it doesn't tell him which ones he should be hiding to get it to build
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17:18:09 <monochrom> "is this why this package doesn't build on hackage?" meme
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17:19:20 <dminuoso> Clint: Maybe. Im just trying to get these details from lechner.
17:19:25 Clint nods.
17:20:01 <lechner> do i have any control over how the imported ema is built via just the cabal.project?
17:20:46 <dminuoso> lechner: Is `ema` listed under build-depends in one component of your cabal file?
17:21:18 <lechner> yes
17:21:40 <dminuoso> Is this an external dependency? Or did you vendor that package?
17:21:59 <lechner> vendored https://dpaste.org/qExW
17:22:16 <lechner> more significantly, i do not understand how I can fix elementary symbol clashes between Relude and System.Environment with outside build instructions
17:22:55 <dminuoso> Mmm, there's likely a missing (or too relaxed) upper bound on relude
17:23:02 <monochrom> In most cases that's barking up the wrong tree.
17:23:13 <dminuoso> Inside the ema package
17:23:34 <lechner> dminuoso: maybe stackage lags?
17:23:35 <dminuoso> If that's the case, you can monkey patch it by introducing an appropriate constraint into your own cabal file. But it's better to fix the underlying issue upstream in the ema package.
17:23:41 <monochrom> In the minority, what dminuoso said, perhaps you need to be very selective about versions.
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17:24:23 <dminuoso> lechner: Ah, presumably ema is originally from stackage?
17:24:30 <dminuoso> Or rather, a stack build package?
17:24:42 <dminuoso> No idea what kind of cabal file you get from hpack.
17:24:47 <lechner> dminuoso: the upstream author uses stack and nix while i would like to use only cabal
17:25:08 <lechner> https://github.com/srid/emanote
17:25:10 <dminuoso> https://github.com/srid/ema/blob/master/ema.cabal#L52
17:25:12 <dminuoso> Ahh indeed.
17:25:54 <dminuoso> lechner: So ideally, you should add a tight bound to *every* package with the minor version on the correct stackage resolver this builds on.
17:26:03 <monochrom> Well, at this point I would sign it off as "unusable on cabal and hackage".
17:26:03 <dminuoso> For ema.
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17:26:29 <dminuoso> lechner: You can also introduce these constraints in your own cabal file if you insisted. Id consider it bad style, but its an option nevertheless.
17:26:36 <dminuoso> Though, Id probably rather fork and fix the package.
17:27:26 <lechner> can i impose the upper bound via --constraint 'relude <= X'
17:27:35 <dminuoso> The idea being, stack build packages have implicit constraints by virtue of stackage resolvers only having cherry picked versions. It's a bit sad that hpack doesn't introduce these same constraints (such that cabal would build the same package that stack would)
17:27:51 <dminuoso> lechner: Yes.
17:28:01 <lechner> which X please?
17:28:14 <dminuoso> Check the stackage resolver this is guaranteed to build on
17:28:17 <dminuoso> And see what version it brings for relude
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17:28:29 <lechner> lts-19.5
17:28:33 <lechner> 18.5
17:29:10 <dminuoso> https://www.stackage.org/lts-18.5/package/relude-0.7.0.0
17:29:17 <dminuoso> https://www.stackage.org/lts-18.5/hoogle?q=relude
17:29:30 <dminuoso> So you can see, the relude version on lts 18.5 is 0.7.0.0
17:29:42 <lechner> yaah i just found it too
17:29:46 <lechner> yeah
17:29:57 <lechner> happy scream
17:30:07 <dminuoso> lechner: You should probably do this for *every* dependency
17:30:25 <dminuoso> Even if it stlil compiles, because there could be any number of lingering bugs due to untested compabilities
17:30:34 <lechner> it is not imposed globally?
17:30:40 <dminuoso> (these bugs could transcend into the transitive dependency tree)
17:30:48 <dminuoso> lechner: No I meant for every dependency of `ema`
17:31:25 <dminuoso> the author has clearly only tested it against dependencies in 18.5, but hackage likely has more recent *major* versions for every one of those.
17:31:41 <dminuoso> Idelaly you wouldnt use <= here either
17:31:52 <lechner> this is for an experimental wiki for now
17:32:33 <dminuoso> Your choice. I dont know what these libraries do, but if you depend on them, it would make sense that you want them to work right
17:32:50 <dminuoso> As opposed to doing "unexpected things", "deleting files accidentally", "having weird bugs", or something else
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17:33:42 <dminuoso> 19:31:25 dminuoso | the author has clearly only tested it against dependencies in 18.5, but hackage likely has more recent *major* versions for every one of those.
17:34:27 <dminuoso> lechner: use ^>= as a version constraint, ideally :)
17:34:36 <lechner> dminuoso: https://www.quora.com/Why-is-that-some-people-say-that-if-a-Haskell-program-compiles-it-probably-works?share=1
17:34:38 <dminuoso> so `relude ^>= 0.7.0.0`
17:35:06 <lechner> or more appropriately, https://wiki.haskell.org/Why_Haskell_just_works
17:35:22 <dminuoso> lechner: There's a lot of misconceptions around this "if it compiles it [probably] works"
17:35:29 <dminuoso> In particular this only holds true for smaller code regions.
17:35:40 <dminuoso> For entire transitive dependency graphs this quickly no longer holds.
17:35:51 <dminuoso> Consider something like `unix`
17:36:03 <dminuoso> Where perhaps the way a given FilePath is interpreted changes between major versions.
17:36:06 <maerwald[m]> heh
17:36:29 <lechner> maybe i should tighten up my prerequisites
17:36:29 <maerwald[m]> "if it compiles it work" is specifically untrue for PVP
17:36:50 <lechner> in other Haskell projects
17:36:55 <dminuoso> lechner: Yes, you should. :)
17:37:02 <dminuoso> `cabal gen-bounds` has your back
17:38:23 <lechner> Well, this is literally a first test run if emanote has any of the features to replace the existing Debian wiki. it will be sandboxed and probably also suffers from genuine bugs
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17:39:57 <lechner> dminuoso: i am still doing something wrong https://paste.debian.net/1207067/
17:39:59 <dminuoso> In my experience, "if it compiles it [probably!] works" is mostly an effect during refactoring, that after some large code restructuring, the moment everything compiles again, there's a moderately high chance of the refactor being done.
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17:40:17 <dminuoso> I want to emphasize on the "moderaly high" portion here. It's by far not a guarantee.
17:40:36 <lechner> right now i can't even get this baby to build
17:40:51 <lechner> and i'm sure it's safer than what i do in Perl
17:40:56 <lechner> :)
17:41:10 <maerwald[m]> That's really the main selling point of haskell: refactoring. Most other things are done better by other languages.
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17:41:23 <geekosaur> strong types help but are not a panacea. and in particular IO is something of a weak type because it doesn't describe what *kind* of IO is happening
17:41:32 <maerwald[m]> But given that refactoring can and should be the biggest part of your daily work, this is a significant selling point
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17:41:39 <dminuoso> 'relude ^>= 7.0.0'
17:41:42 <lechner> i was going to say
17:41:44 <dminuoso> should probably read 'relude ^>= 0.7.0.0'
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17:42:17 <lechner> thanks for catching that!
17:42:26 <maerwald[m]> it isn't easy to get a language into the tight spot which is ease of refactoring, because too much expressivity can easily kill that property too
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17:45:07 <lechner> dminuoso: i actually copied and pasted that from a constraint i no longer needed but something got lost, sorry my head is spinning https://github.com/mrkkrp/megaparsec/issues/461
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17:46:38 <lechner> dminuoso: thanks so much! i am in business. is this a static executable i can copy to anoter machine like Golang?
17:46:47 <dminuoso> Perhaps?
17:46:54 <myShoggoth> Episode 1 of The Haskell Interlude podcast is liiiiiiiiive: https://haskell.foundation/podcast/
17:46:57 <dminuoso> It likely isnt if you dont know.
17:47:08 <dminuoso> It takes effort to make static executables with GHC.
17:47:23 <MorrowM> myShoggoth: Oooh
17:47:29 <tomsmeding> lechner: run ldd on the executable
17:48:18 <tomsmeding> myShoggoth: 🎉
17:48:30 <srid[m]> <lechner> "srid: I am now also on Matrix..." <- If you are on matrix, join #neuron:matrix.org
17:48:30 <lechner> well, at 64 megs it better bring some goodies
17:48:42 <dminuoso> lechner: This is due to some unfortunate defaults.
17:48:53 <lechner> srid[m]: i did---with two accounts
17:49:03 <dminuoso> If you configure your cabal globally to enable split sections and stripping, this usually gets down to acceptable sizes.
17:49:22 <tomsmeding> was there a downside to that on linux again?
17:49:43 <srid[m]> lechner: also see https://github.com/srid/ema-template/issues/3
17:49:51 <tomsmeding> ah docs say compile time and compile memory usage
17:50:00 <dminuoso> Set `split-sections: True` in your ~/.cabal/config, and ensure you have stripping enabled in your cabal project. Note that this will recompile *all* dependencies, but it's a setting that arugably should be a cabal default.
17:50:45 <lechner> can it create separate debug symbols?
17:51:29 <maerwald[m]> dminuoso: probably isn't because it doesn't work on all platforms or sth
17:51:44 <geekosaur> I don't think it creates debug symbols at all without specific configuration?
17:51:57 <dminuoso> maerwald[m]: Oh yeah, I recall that argument and I think its flawed. Splitting sections when it's possible seems very sensible.
17:52:17 <geekosaur> debug symbols are a recent addition to ghc
17:52:28 <dminuoso> Forcibly blowing up executable sizes by a factor of up to 25 just for the sake of some stubbornness is weird.
17:53:16 <maerwald[m]> I don't think any GHC dev is particularly stubborn... there are just bigger fish to fry :p
17:53:22 <dminuoso> heh
17:53:41 <geekosaur> this would be cabal, not ghc?
17:54:10 <lechner> Haskell executables may not produce much unexpected runtime behavior compared to other languages
17:54:56 <dminuoso> What do you mean exactly by unexpected runtime behavior?
17:55:47 <fresheyeball> I am working on a new project in plutus
17:55:57 <fresheyeball> and for some reason `cabal build` clones git repos
17:56:03 <fresheyeball> I have never seen cabal build do this
17:56:13 <fresheyeball> what's that all about? Is this new 3.0 stuff?
17:56:36 <lechner> dminuoso: the need use a debugger, although maybe you do have your fair share of OOMs
17:56:43 <davean> fresheyeball: thats cabal.project stuff, it just depends on a specific remote
17:56:47 <sclv> yep, cabal project files let you pin against git repos and their tags or hashes
17:57:11 <sclv> some bigger projects are making use of that a fair amount these days
17:57:36 <dminuoso> lechner: In principle you also need to use debugging tools in Haskell.
17:57:56 <geekosaur> there's at least one ghc bug reoort that begs to differ :þ https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/163
17:57:58 <fresheyeball> davean: is there a way to get cabal to use the deps provided by the nix-shell instead of downloading things?
17:58:01 <maerwald[m]> fresheyeball: cardano is full of source-repository packages. There are many libraries, but almost none or on hackage, so that's how they are pulled in
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17:58:20 <davean> fresheyeball: Not and get a working build I expect
17:58:22 <lechner> dminuoso: i was trying to support your argument that debugging symbols may not be needed all the time
17:58:33 <dminuoso> It's hard to say whether you need it "less" or "more". From what I gather, the wide masses rarely use debugging tools, sadly.
17:58:35 <sclv> fresheyeball: only by changing the project file to not explicitly require those repos!
17:58:46 <lechner> geekosaur: ouch!
17:59:22 <sclv> lmao the famous "best bug ever"
17:59:24 <lechner> geekosaur: i know, it happened on Windoze!
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18:00:14 <lechner> sorry, deafening silence
18:01:02 <tomsmeding> love how there is no conversation on that ticket other than "will be fixed in a patch version"
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18:01:51 <lechner> please let me say that i adore Microsoft's support for Haskell. sorry if i offended anyone. bad old habit
18:02:39 <lechner> i really meant that. my apologies
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18:03:22 <maerwald[m]> Microsoft Research
18:03:23 <maerwald[m]> which is more like a completely independent thing
18:03:42 <lechner> dminuoso: isn't stripping on by default? https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-project.html#cfg-field-executable-stripping
18:03:56 <lechner> maerwald[m]: crdeit has to be given when due
18:04:09 <dminuoso> lechner: I dont know about your cabal installation, configuration, cabal.project/cabal.project.local
18:04:10 <lechner> credit, sorry poor speller
18:04:21 <monochrom> Yes, this is why the correction "MS Research" is important.
18:04:54 <dminuoso> lechner: Which is why I said "ensure you have..."
18:05:22 <dminuoso> And maybe this changed in cabal versions, i have no clue.
18:05:26 <maerwald[m]> MS Research... oddly... is pretty insanely great. The projects they do, the papers, the reserachers
18:05:36 <lechner> yeah
18:05:38 <monochrom> Approximately the only credit for MS the parent company is the money.
18:06:03 <monochrom> Oh the history backdrop is even more amazing.
18:06:10 <maerwald[m]> excess money needs to be spent somehow
18:06:20 <monochrom> In the beginning, Bell Labs was insanely great.
18:06:40 <lechner> aside from the money, they also had the wits not to pour it into Pascal
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18:07:21 <geekosaur> Pascal-izing C (see ther original Windows API) isn't necessarily better thiugh
18:07:45 <monochrom> On day, Bell the parent company became not so friendly with the research branch, so the great researchers moved to DEC Lab.
18:08:10 <monochrom> So DEC Lab was insanely great.
18:09:15 <monochrom> Then one day, DEC sold the lab to Compaq, and later Compaq got bought up by Dell. So the parent company, whichever it was at the time, became not so friendly to the lab, so the great researches moved to MS Research.
18:09:26 <monochrom> So MS Research became insanely great.
18:10:00 <monochrom> History can repeat again. If one day MS becomes unfriendly to MS Research, the great researchers can still move to another company and make it great.
18:10:09 <lechner> i thought Apple had trademarked "insanely"
18:10:28 <lechner> or rather "insanely great"
18:11:21 <monochrom> Oh, Windows API being pascalish also has its historical backdrop, probably.
18:11:38 <Drew[m]1> Compaq merged with HP, not Dell
18:11:55 <davean> lechner: so what if they did?
18:11:55 <monochrom> So it began with Classical MacOS choosing Pascal and giving you only a Pascal binding of its OS and GUI.
18:12:20 <lechner> Hi, with many components linked statically into executables what does the cabal.project option for library-stripping do, please?
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18:12:25 <monochrom> Yes Pascal was the system programming language of Mac. Fancy that.
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18:12:48 <davean> monochrom: whats so weird about that?
18:12:56 <monochrom> So, probably Bill Gates borrowed from Classic MacOS for Windows, and kept the Pascalish conventions.
18:13:06 <monochrom> Not weird to me.
18:13:31 <monochrom> But I like to take every chance to weird out people who think that C is "system" and/or "performant"
18:13:47 <geekosaur> lechner: there are the external symbols needed for linking but also things like local symbols that can be used for debugging
18:13:50 <monochrom> (In the latter case I would cite Fortran.)
18:13:51 <davean> ok, but C isn't overly performant?
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18:14:11 <monochrom> You don't deny that those delusional people exist, do you?
18:14:12 <geekosaur> library stripping removes the latter, leaving only the ones needed to link against it
18:14:16 <davean> and I'm not sure how either apply
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18:15:06 geekosaur still remembers MPW Pascal
18:15:51 <geekosaur> and how MPW's shell behaved oddly not quite like a unix
18:15:56 <lechner> it it okay if i also explicitly set debug-info: False for good measure? (it was not on before)
18:15:59 <davean> monochrom: I mean, even if they did, Pascal is pretty much a C variant in a lot of ways, a very close relative
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18:18:08 <davean> Using Pascal these days would be weird
18:18:40 <maerwald[m]> look at hedgehog... it hask haskell code, pascal code and a few other languages :)
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18:19:06 <maerwald[m]> (the game)
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18:19:30 <maerwald[m]> eh, hedgewars
18:19:41 <lechner> sorry about the controversy. maybe i should have picked BASIC over Pascal earlier
18:19:53 <maerwald[m]> https://github.com/hedgewars/hw
18:20:10 jess is now known as j
18:20:23 <maerwald[m]> the server is haskell, the client is pascal or sth
18:20:28 j is now known as jess
18:20:29 <monochrom> Oh, BASIC, then we can talk about Applesoft BASIC. Still with Apple. >:)
18:20:30 <davean> lechner: BIOSs use to run BASIC?
18:20:35 <maerwald[m]> no idea what type of drugs you need to come up with that idea
18:20:58 <maerwald[m]> but packaging that thing for a source distro was really fun lol
18:22:09 <maerwald[m]> so maybe that's pascals new use case
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18:23:26 <geekosaur> hm, is delphi still around?
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18:24:24 <geekosaur> yep. database with built in object pascal language
18:25:59 <lechner> davean: thanks for the advice (which i think you had also offered on another day). now i'm down to 26 MB
18:26:09 <lechner> dminuoso: thanks for the advice (which i think you had also offered on another day). now i'm down to 26 MB
18:26:16 <lechner> davean: sorry
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18:26:48 <davean> lechner: yah, I only optimize Haskell performance, not size :)
18:26:51 <davean> lechner: wrong questions for me!
18:27:05 <davean> if you want to make it faster, we can talk
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18:27:35 <lechner> davean: i saw your other message btw, and will get back to you when i have some ideas
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18:28:58 <Guest60> Hello. Im trying to code a little line command program using the stack template "rio".
18:29:18 <Guest60> How would you modify the source code to ask for an argument when user call the command line program ?
18:29:19 <Guest60> https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack-templates/blob/master/rio.hsfiles
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18:29:47 <Guest60> i red the documentation of many libraries but i cant find a syntax that satisfy the compiler
18:30:24 <dminuoso> START_FILE
18:30:27 <dminuoso> What is this? :o
18:30:36 <Guest60> i think opt parse is involve
18:30:57 <Guest60> this is the template used to generate files
18:31:38 <monochrom> And why is it not StartFile? <duck>
18:34:47 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: 'stack init' template, like 'cabal init' but different
18:36:21 <Guest60> the code involve shold be this file : https://pastebin.com/RLhmbJTp
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18:36:32 <Guest60> involved should*
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18:41:29 <Guest60> more precisely i guess it should be around line 18
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18:46:38 <tomsmeding> Guest60: what kind of argument do you want the program to take?
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18:48:16 <Guest60> @tomsmeding i expect user to pass one letter
18:48:16 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
18:48:41 <Guest60> tomsmeding: so a string or a char i guess
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18:50:06 <tomsmeding> Guest60: that Options constructor is from the Options datatype in src/Types.hs
18:50:30 <tomsmeding> I recommend reading the optparse-applicative tutorial at https://github.com/pcapriotti/optparse-applicative
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18:51:02 <tomsmeding> of that, you can skip the whole execParser, <**>, helper etc things, and just read the Parser parts
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18:51:45 <tomsmeding> because that fourth argument to simpleOptions is a Parser ( https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optparse-simple-0.1.1.4/docs/Options-Applicative-Simple.html#v:simpleOptions )
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19:00:03 <Guest60> tomsmeding: ill check at this, thanks !
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19:09:57 <Gurkenglas> Is there a programming language that lets you implement ((a -> Void) -> Void) -> a? It would have to go "it must somewhere apply the (a -> Void) to an a, so lets take that a and return it instead."
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19:11:35 <davean> Gurkenglas: but thats not true? With a forall it might be
19:12:24 <tomsmeding> Gurkenglas: why must it apply that particular function?
19:12:25 <Gurkenglas> davean, it would be true in that language, hopefully. how would it be false?
19:12:58 <Gurkenglas> tomsmeding, because that language does not allow one to actually have a Void
19:13:16 <Gurkenglas> so the only place to get one is to use the given (a -> Void)
19:13:33 <tomsmeding> because it has no knowledge of what 'a' is?
19:13:56 <Gurkenglas> wut? no this works for String to
19:14:02 <tomsmeding> then davean's suggestion is correct, I think: it should at least be (forall a. (a -> Void) -> Void) -> a
19:14:06 <Gurkenglas> *too
19:14:17 <tomsmeding> oh right
19:14:29 <tomsmeding> but there might be another function in the environment with type Int -> Void
19:14:33 <Gurkenglas> ((String -> Void) -> Void) -> Void, by inspecting the argument for what string it feeds into the (String -> Void)
19:14:38 <tomsmeding> and then for a ~ Int it could just call that
19:15:04 <tomsmeding> yeah my forall remark was incorrect
19:15:37 <tomsmeding> heh this is double-negation elimination, which implies law of the excluded middle if I remember correctly
19:15:45 <Gurkenglas> indeed, thats the point :)
19:15:48 <tomsmeding> so this won't work in any language based on pure type theory
19:17:23 <Gurkenglas> tomsmeding, if the environment contains another source of Void you'd only get a Maybe String
19:17:46 <davean> I'd meant (forall b . (a -> b) -> b) -> a
19:18:03 <davean> because it knows what Void is, but with forall it doesn't, and we can inject whatever b we want
19:18:24 <tomsmeding> in which case, ($ id) suffices
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19:20:08 <tomsmeding> I wonder, given that 'a -> Void' is the usual encoding of "NOT a" in type theory, would 'forall b. a -> b' also be a valid encoding?
19:20:35 <tomsmeding> it's at least as powerful, by substituting b = Void
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19:21:58 <tomsmeding> i.e. is it true that for all propositions that you can curry-howard implement using the 'a -> Void' convention, you can also implement them using the 'forall b. a -> b' convention?
19:22:17 <tomsmeding> yes, by post-composing with 'absurd'
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19:23:09 <tomsmeding> so with that alternative encoding of "NOT a", the encoding of "NOT (NOT a) => a" in a type would be (forall b. (forall c. a -> c) -> b) -> a)
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19:24:16 <tomsmeding> heh and then ($ id) doesn't work anymore
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19:26:42 <tomsmeding> of course it doesn't because that would be a proof that ~~a => a in type theory, and that's impossible
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20:21:26 <myShoggoth> Gil Mizrahi has posted the Haskell performance tuning book proposal, please check it out, give feedback, and volunteer your expertise!
20:21:26 <myShoggoth> https://github.com/haskellfoundation/tech-proposals/pull/9
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20:52:40 <fresheyeball> so I have a project where there is a cabal.project file specifiying some custom sources
20:52:43 <fresheyeball> which is all well and good
20:52:54 <fresheyeball> but cabal doesn't pick up that these are already supplied by the nix-shell
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21:13:53 <dmj`> fresheyeball: you'll need to copy the SHAs and revs of those custom sources from the cabal.project into the nix, leave the shell, then re-enter the shell.
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21:26:43 <fresheyeball> dmj`: I believe that is done already
21:27:27 <dmj`> Are you using niv
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22:48:51 <fresheyeball> dmj`: no
22:48:57 <fresheyeball> but the project is
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23:31:42 <slack1256> Is there a updated ghc roadmap? the ghc wiki has some but other were not met.
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23:55:23 <lbseale> I built a GHC package myself successfully, and I am trying to build it into a shared library. It tells me to compile with -fPIC, even though I already did: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/QscWJtVn

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