Logs on 2021-08-12 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:05:13 | <DigitalKiwi> | monochrom: the lemons are for the invisible ink! |
| 00:06:27 | <monochrom> | Ah that gives me ideas. |
| 00:07:26 | <monochrom> | Do graffiti in lemon juice. Then when someone tries to arson the wall, we get a "the writing is on the wall" effect. |
| 00:07:58 | <DigitalKiwi> | =D |
| 00:08:04 | <DigitalKiwi> | r u psychotic too lol |
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| 00:11:56 | <monochrom> | I'm just sleep-deprived. |
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| 00:21:35 | <DigitalKiwi> | anyway sorry for being offtopic lol |
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| 00:26:06 | <hololeap> | is using haskell an indicator of mental health problems? |
| 00:27:20 | <Axman6> | It does indicate an overly optimisticly pure view of the world |
| 00:30:14 | <hololeap> | Just (pure (Right True)) -- it does kind of have a puritan vibe |
| 00:31:12 | <Axman6> | :prayerhands: May your lambdas all apply |
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| 00:48:49 | <DigitalKiwi> | yes |
| 00:49:44 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://mostlyabsurd.com/about/#robert-djubek |
| 00:52:07 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://twitter.com/ArchKiwi/status/1319218948722860032 |
| 00:52:52 | dsal | logs into twitter to heart that |
| 00:53:06 | <DigitalKiwi> | i've been crazy for over 20 years but haskell helps <3 |
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| 00:53:45 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://twitter.com/ArchKiwi/status/1249955169204342784 |
| 00:56:34 | <dsal> | Yikes. :( |
| 00:57:01 | <dsal> | I've experienced that a lot. |
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| 01:01:11 | <DigitalKiwi> | monochrom: lol so the grafitti should be "it was the man with the lemons!" |
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| 01:09:46 | <hololeap> | DigitalKiwi: I think that milewski makes a good case for what you're saying in that first tweet |
| 01:10:42 | <hololeap> | basically that software is complicated, and we need a computer (compiler and type system) to help us, otherwise we wouldn't need computers at all |
| 01:11:49 | <hololeap> | (because if we could comprehend the complexity of software, we would already be able to "execute" it in our heads) |
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| 01:14:56 | <monochrom> | Yeah, using Haskell indicates both optimism with Just pure Right True and being pedantic about "but a computation that results with an Int is not an Int and does not contain Int either" i.e. M Int vs Int where M is a monadic type. |
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| 01:16:19 | <monochrom> | The latter really puzzles a lot of programmers outside, they have always survived without drawing that line. |
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| 01:19:51 | <int-e> | @quote explain.this |
| 01:19:52 | <lambdabot> | cjs says: I have to explain this shit to people. I mean, I start out right, "Hey, you know how you always have these bugs because what you thought was in the variable is not there?" And I get all of |
| 01:19:52 | <lambdabot> | these nods of agreement. "Well, I've found a new language that solves that problem." Audience: "Ooooh! How?" Me: "There's no variables!" And then they all start moving away from me slowly.... |
| 01:20:11 | <hololeap> | most people learn how to program with "tell computer to do this. tell computer to do that." which _is_ how computers operate, but then eventually you might discover that there actually _is_ another way with the purely functional paradigm, and all the cool abstract concepts that come with it |
| 01:21:31 | <hololeap> | basically, Turing won the meme war :p |
| 01:22:39 | <geekosaur> | turing, or von neumann? |
| 01:23:07 | <hololeap> | honestly I lose track of all the things Von Neumann came up with :p |
| 01:23:16 | <hololeap> | so it could have been him originally |
| 01:24:15 | <int-e> | It's impressive to defeat Harvard single-handedly. |
| 01:24:44 | <hololeap> | int-e: what are you referring to specifically? |
| 01:25:31 | <int-e> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_architecture#Contrast_with_von_Neumann_architectures |
| 01:25:43 | <int-e> | same thing as geekosaur, I think |
| 01:26:40 | <int-e> | Which is a different fight than the Church, Kleene (I think) vs. Turing one |
| 01:27:05 | <monochrom> | I think Harvest lost the battle but won the war. |
| 01:28:00 | <monochrom> | If you don't actually practice self-modifying-code programming, you're using a von Neumann computer as though it's a Harvard computer. |
| 01:28:11 | <davean> | Harvard is still here, Von Numann is dead, pretty easy to figure out who won the war. |
| 01:28:25 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 01:28:49 | <davean> | We have seperate instruction and data caches on most modern CPUs also |
| 01:29:10 | <int-e> | morbid |
| 01:29:51 | <monochrom> | "Harvard is too big to fail(TM)" |
| 01:29:52 | <Axman6> | RAM is just shared storage for Harvard architecture CPUs |
| 01:30:26 | <int-e> | I know, let's implement a virtual machine... |
| 01:31:03 | <int-e> | (These lines between code and data are so blurry.) |
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| 01:48:02 | <dsal> | The problem with "tell the computer to do this..." types of programs is that that computers have changed and don't necessarily do what you tell them in those languages either. |
| 01:48:12 | <dsal> | Tell a 1970s computer to do this, and the modern computer will try to guess what you mean. |
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| 01:49:31 | <dsal> | I experienced this a lot when I had to deal with a lot of perl code. Every time something went horribly wrong and I'd open the code, I'd spend most of the time trying to understand why the programmer thought the things they told the computer to do would be useful in achieving any particular goal they might have. |
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| 01:53:33 | <DigitalKiwi> | hololeap: https://twitter.com/haskellhutt/status/1308076394417655820?s=20 |
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| 01:57:59 | <DigitalKiwi> | are graham and barotosz the same person |
| 01:58:53 | <DigitalKiwi> | maybe this is what polymorphism is |
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| 02:06:08 | <DigitalKiwi> | "i went to harvard" "really?" "school of computing" "amazing!" "ok what i really mean to say is that i turned on a computer once" "..." |
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| 02:09:14 | <Axman6> | "Really?" "Ok, no, I just keep my todo list and documents separate" |
| 02:10:44 | <DigitalKiwi> | what's a todo list |
| 02:11:14 | <DigitalKiwi> | i'd like to trade my todo list for a toDONE list |
| 02:11:22 | <Axman6> | ... a list of things to do... |
| 02:11:37 | <Axman6> | that's a done list |
| 02:11:57 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://twitter.com/ArchKiwi/status/1422703998549860352?s=20 |
| 02:12:33 | <DigitalKiwi> | because i am SO DONE with computers ;D |
| 02:12:43 | <DigitalKiwi> | gotta let me finish my jokes ;( |
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| 02:22:07 | <nshepperd> | mine is a todon't list |
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| 02:26:37 | <Axman6> | Just call it what it is, a guilt list |
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| 02:36:53 | <slack1256> | Is the current advice for typeclasses without laws "don't"? |
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| 02:38:08 | <slack1256> | What is the alternative to codifiying "business effects"? for example a UserQuerCapability with a single method `getUser :: Id -> m User` that gets an user from the DB. It doesn't have any laws, but it useful for mocking (via quickcheck and ReaderT). |
| 02:40:00 | <c_wraith> | the usual alternative is to just use higher-order functions |
| 02:40:27 | <c_wraith> | Whether with the ReaderT IO pattern, or something more complicated |
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| 02:41:13 | <c_wraith> | then instead of dispatching based on type, you use the same type everywhere and initialize the functions in scope differently |
| 02:41:30 | <slack1256> | Is that exposed on some blogpost? I would like to see a example. |
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| 03:03:30 | <euouae> | Hello I'm trying to understand traverse |
| 03:03:48 | <euouae> | For example in `traverse _ empty = pure empty` in https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/Data-Traversable.html#g:9 |
| 03:04:00 | <euouae> | How is `pure empty` of type `t (f b)`? |
| 03:04:20 | <euouae> | I don't understand how `pure` specializes for a Traversable since a Traversable is not Applicative |
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| 03:09:03 | <euouae> | never mind I misread the type... :( |
| 03:09:06 | <euouae> | I get it now |
| 03:10:16 | <euouae> | (It is of type `f (t b)` not `t (f b)`...) |
| 03:14:59 | <Cale> | euouae: If you know mapM, traverse is just that, but generalised slightly. |
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| 03:16:16 | <Cale> | It turns a container of actions into an action that, when executed, executes each of the actions in some order, and builds a similarly-shaped container of results. |
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| 03:16:43 | <euouae> | Yeah I'm just learning both Cale |
| 03:16:51 | <Cale> | Or rather, sequenceA does exactly that :) |
| 03:16:57 | <euouae> | I have some misunderstanding with regards to how it works, I understand the high-level idea |
| 03:17:25 | <Cale> | traverse uses the given function to turn the elements of the given container into actions |
| 03:17:29 | <euouae> | Luckily the Base docs have a good section called 'Construction' that addresses exactly what I am puzzled with |
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| 03:17:54 | <Cale> | ah, yeah |
| 03:18:04 | <euouae> | Cale: Should the boldface in https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/Data-Traversable.html#g:9 be changed with inline code instead? |
| 03:18:20 | <euouae> | This is a minor question but I'm curious if I should bother with a PR |
| 03:18:27 | <Cale> | You mean the 'a'? |
| 03:18:53 | <euouae> | "We can view a partially built structure *t0 :: T a* as a function *append :: a -> T a* that takes one more element *a* " |
| 03:19:06 | <Cale> | I think that might already be inline code, it's just formatted as bold fixed-width text |
| 03:19:27 | <euouae> | I don't think it's consistent with other parts of the docs |
| 03:19:51 | <euouae> | Maybe it is. Idk |
| 03:20:59 | <Cale> | If you're already familiar with IO and do-notation to some extent, it might help to see a specialisation like: |
| 03:21:07 | <Cale> | traverse :: [IO a] -> IO [a] |
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| 03:21:12 | <Cale> | traverse [] = return [] |
| 03:21:23 | <Cale> | oops |
| 03:21:27 | <Cale> | traverse f [] = return [] |
| 03:21:49 | <Cale> | traverse f (x:xs) = do v <- f x; vs <- traverse f xs; return (v:vs) |
| 03:22:04 | <euouae> | I get that one |
| 03:22:10 | <euouae> | the issue I had is some argument with >> I brought up |
| 03:22:26 | <euouae> | It had to do with `sequence` and State |
| 03:22:41 | <euouae> | I'm not going to get into it right now before I read that section, but I have another question |
| 03:22:59 | <euouae> | Do you think the type for `append` is wrong? Should it be `append :: T a -> a -> T a` instead of `append :: a -> T a` |
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| 03:23:11 | <Axman6> | You better not *shakes fist* |
| 03:23:12 | <Axman6> | :P |
| 03:23:30 | <euouae> | Hehehe just give me some time Axman6 I learn slowly |
| 03:24:22 | <Axman6> | prepend :: a -> t a -> t a, append :: t a -> a -> t a IMO |
| 03:24:26 | <dsal> | I went the other way around for the most part. Besides learning about Traversable by going through a book, I found myself wanting something that sounded like `mapM` and then used that. Then learned that `mapM = traverse`. But there were a couple other obscure use cases I found that were nice. |
| 03:24:37 | <euouae> | Axman6: Then the docs have a typo there right? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/Data-Traversable.html#g:7 |
| 03:25:06 | <dsal> | e.g., this is a useful alias for me: `justM :: Monad m => (a -> m ()) -> Maybe a -> m (); justM = traverse_` |
| 03:25:19 | <Cale> | euouae: I find that explanation a little weird myself, but I don't think it's a mistake. |
| 03:25:26 | <Axman6> | yeah those docs look wrong to me but I haven't read all of it |
| 03:25:40 | <euouae> | Cale: Can you tell me why `append` has the right type? |
| 03:25:53 | <Cale> | euouae: Don't think of it as a fully-generic append function |
| 03:26:15 | <euouae> | If `append :: a -> T a` as they claim, how is `traverse f (append t0 a) = append <$> traverse f t0 <*> f a` possible? |
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| 03:26:20 | <Cale> | Think of it as really representing a particular container of elements, using a function that, given an additional element, will add that element to the container |
| 03:26:52 | <euouae> | Yeah it's the arity of the type that bothers me. It seems that append is applied to more arguments than the type indicates in the source code |
| 03:27:14 | <Cale> | ah, perhaps |
| 03:27:20 | <Cale> | In that case, I have no idea |
| 03:27:31 | <Cale> | I should probably read and understand the thing :P |
| 03:27:40 | <euouae> | No it's OK I'll submit a PR |
| 03:27:54 | <euouae> | let the person who wants to review it deal with it, no need to spend more energy than needed :P |
| 03:33:53 | <Cale> | euouae: I think they meant to write append t0 :: a -> T a |
| 03:34:09 | <Cale> | and prepend a :: T a -> T a |
| 03:35:23 | <euouae> | Cale: I see. They do say that a structure `t0 :: T a` can be viewed as a function `append :: a -> T a`... |
| 03:35:44 | <euouae> | So perhaps that was the intention, a `t0` is missing there |
| 03:36:03 | <Cale> | yeah |
| 03:36:04 | euouae | Can't yet do PRs but in a few weeks it should be possible |
| 03:36:30 | <Cale> | Also, I'm theoretically on the CLC, so I should be able to do it, but I have no idea, lol. |
| 03:36:48 | <euouae> | What's the CLC? |
| 03:37:07 | <Cale> | Core libraries committee |
| 03:38:23 | <euouae> | You can mail them at core-libraries-committee [AT] haskell.org to fix it :P |
| 03:38:55 | <euouae> | I thought that the Base documentation is shipped with GHC |
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| 03:41:57 | <euouae> | Should be somewhere here, https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/libraries/base/Data/Traversable.hs but I can't spot it |
| 03:43:07 | <euouae> | Looks like the master branch is ahead of hackage |
| 03:43:50 | <euouae> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/libraries/base/Data/Traversable.hs#L1007-1019 |
| 03:51:19 | <euouae> | How can I run the test suite of https://github.com/hedgehogqa/haskell-hedgehog/tree/master/hedgehog-example ? |
| 03:51:42 | <euouae> | I did `cabal build all` and `cabal test hedgehog-example` and I just get "test suite passed" and no messages |
| 03:51:54 | <euouae> | I expected a lot of output. Am I doing something wrong? |
| 03:55:09 | <sclv> | often test runners only give messages when there are errors |
| 03:58:45 | <euouae> | sclv: -- But this project is designed to actually show test errors as an example so we don't want it to break CI. |
| 03:59:06 | <euouae> | That's in https://github.com/hedgehogqa/haskell-hedgehog/blob/master/hedgehog-example/test/test.hs |
| 03:59:07 | <sclv> | well if test suite passed is the result, then there aren't errors |
| 03:59:27 | <sclv> | weird |
| 03:59:34 | <sclv> | cabal might just hide the input in the case it passes |
| 03:59:35 | <euouae> | sclv: This is not the output that I'm used to when I run Hedgehog once in the past |
| 03:59:50 | <sclv> | that's actually what i recall, sigh. |
| 04:00:24 | <euouae> | λ tests ━━━ Test.Example ━━━ ✓ prop_reverse passed 100 tests. |
| 04:00:29 | <euouae> | ^ it looks more like this, with line breaks |
| 04:00:32 | <sclv> | right. |
| 04:00:48 | <sclv> | i think if there aren't errors, `cabal test` swallows the output. don't recall the flag to fix it |
| 04:00:59 | <sclv> | you can always just run the generated text exe manually |
| 04:01:08 | <euouae> | But the output looks more like this https://paste.tomsmeding.com/0x0qdIwk |
| 04:01:27 | <sclv> | or maybe call `cabal run test:hedgehog-example` to run the test suite as an exe? |
| 04:01:39 | <euouae> | Oooh dang. The test output is logged in a file... whoops |
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| 04:02:25 | <sclv> | oh there's a `--test-show-details=FILTER` flag that the --help output lists, that might be the one |
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| 06:30:29 | <Drew[m]1> | Is there an easy way to search packages on hackage their dependency bounds on a specific package? |
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| 06:42:36 | <pavonia> | Drew[m]1: There's <https://packdeps.haskellers.com/reverse>. Not sure this is what you are looking for |
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| 07:03:50 | <Drew[m]1> | pavonia: That fits my use case. Thanks! |
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| 08:31:31 | <kuribas> | I made a more ergonomic and lawful validation transformer: https://gist.github.com/kuribas/d3d7a97de4faf340442fd3e542ea73bf |
| 08:31:45 | <kuribas> | It has two parts, the validation applicative, and the reporting monad. |
| 08:31:56 | <kuribas> | the reporting monad is like ChronicleT, but with less weird names. |
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| 08:34:33 | <kuribas> | for some reason, the ChronicleT functions remind me of the spanish inquisition. |
| 08:35:03 | <kuribas> | But I guess it's normal not to expect it :-) |
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| 08:36:33 | <kuribas> | nobody does |
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| 10:08:06 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: TIL ChronicleT, and also that it has _very_ weird names |
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| 10:32:13 | <timCF> | Hello! Is anybody experienced in Haskell<->C FFI APIs? I have a very strange issue with secp256k1 Haskell wrapper around C code. In my code I'm using this function https://hackage.haskell.org/package/secp256k1-haskell-0.5.0/docs/src/Crypto.Secp256k1.html#importSig It's accepting `ByteString` and returning `Maybe Sig`. I think by design it should catch all low-level errors and return Nothing in case of some |
| 10:32:19 | <timCF> | failure. I did randomly found that **sometimes** it's failing with C exception (I guess related to NULL pointer) in case where empty ByteString is passed to this Haskell function. It's really strange that in some places empty ByteString is resolved as NULL pointer, but if I'm trying to reproduce it artificially passing (mempty :: ByteString) explicitly - it works just fine, returns Nothing. Are there |
| 10:32:25 | <timCF> | different "kinds" of empty ByteString terms in Haskell? |
| 10:33:35 | <timCF> | Exception looks like `[libsecp256k1] illegal argument: input != NULL` |
| 10:34:32 | <timCF> | And it's coming from here I guess https://github.com/bitcoin-core/secp256k1/blob/0440945fb5ce69d335fed32827b5166e84b02e05/src/secp256k1.c#L380 |
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| 10:59:34 | <tomsmeding> | timCF: that mempty, is that a strict bytestring? |
| 11:00:08 | <timCF> | Yes, just strict ByteString. Does anybody know how in principle on low value level `Data.ByteString.empty` differs from `mempty :: ByteString` or `"" :: ByteString` |
| 11:00:12 | <tomsmeding> | Data.ByteString.empty and mempty :: ByteString are both backed by a null pointer, which is passed unchanged to C apis |
| 11:00:34 | <tomsmeding> | E.g. empty: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytestring-0.11.1.0/docs/src/Data.ByteString.html#empty |
| 11:00:45 | <timCF> | `"" :: ByteString` and `mempty :: ByteString` behave differently in my case |
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| 11:01:03 | <tomsmeding> | With OverloadedStrings? |
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| 11:01:07 | <timCF> | Yes |
| 11:01:43 | <timCF> | `"" :: ByteString` is not causing NULL pointer excepption, but `mempty :: ByteString` and `Data.ByteString.empty` do |
| 11:02:07 | <tomsmeding> | fromString "" :: ByteString creates a zero-length allocation, whereas mempty and empty don't do any allocation at all and just return a null bytestring |
| 11:02:26 | <tomsmeding> | Sounds like this is precisely your problem :p |
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| 11:02:44 | <tomsmeding> | I've had trouble with this before: https://github.com/snapframework/snap-core/pull/305 |
| 11:03:30 | <timCF> | tomsmeding: hmmm so Haskell will recognize ("" :: ByteString) == (mempty :: ByteString) as True? But in reality it's not? :) |
| 11:04:00 | <tomsmeding> | timCF: (==) need not be structural equality |
| 11:04:03 | <tomsmeding> | ;) |
| 11:05:11 | <tomsmeding> | In this case, for (==), the case that produces that equality is the first line here https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytestring-0.11.1.0/docs/src/Data.ByteString.Internal.html#compareBytes |
| 11:05:16 | <timCF> | That's scary, haha) Haskell<->C APIs are scary place) It's first time I have a problems like this) |
| 11:05:39 | <tomsmeding> | timCF: this sounds like a bug in the haskell wrapper |
| 11:06:14 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: tbh, having a "zero-length" allocation sounds plain wrong |
| 11:06:22 | <tomsmeding> | In haskell land, fromString "" and empty are semantically equal, so the wrapper must ensure that that is also the case for these potentially abstraction-breaking functions |
| 11:06:29 | <merijn> | Sounds like those should be returning NULL too |
| 11:06:35 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: possibly, but it shouldn't be observable :p |
| 11:06:43 | <tomsmeding> | So that secp haskell lib should do some checking |
| 11:06:53 | <merijn> | What was the original question? I missed that |
| 11:07:21 | <tomsmeding> | Some haskell lib uses a C lib and passes bytestring buffers unchanged, and the c lib doesn't like null pointers |
| 11:07:22 | <timCF> | tomsmeding: Yeah, I've already created an issue in github, thanks a lot! |
| 11:07:48 | <tomsmeding> | timCF: cheers :) |
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| 11:09:14 | <timCF> | merijn: It's here https://github.com/haskoin/secp256k1-haskell/issues/36 |
| 11:09:49 | <tomsmeding> | timCF: re non-structural equality: 0 and -0 have different floating point bit representations, but they compare equal |
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| 11:11:20 | <merijn> | And NaN values that have identical bit representation compare inequal :p |
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| 11:14:38 | <tomsmeding> | That too :p |
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| 11:28:37 | <boxscape> | I'm fairly certain the answer is no, but can you use Overlapping pragmas for `type instance`s? (For open type families) |
| 11:29:06 | <boxscape> | I don't have a use case but the phrasing in a blog post saying that you don't need it for closed type families made me wonder |
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| 12:52:45 | <shane> | Is there any kind of "Free" thing that gives an ArrowApply from any Arrow? |
| 12:53:44 | <merijn> | Probably not |
| 12:54:16 | <merijn> | tbh, I'd question the use of Arrow to begin with and *double* question the use of any Arrow that needs ArrowApply |
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| 12:54:53 | <merijn> | Arrow is a kinda meh abstraction |
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| 12:56:16 | <shane> | Yeah. So obviously any ArrowApply could just be a Monad |
| 12:56:53 | <merijn> | If you think you want Arrow, you *probably* want (a combination of) Applicative/Category/Profunctor |
| 12:57:07 | <merijn> | And if you want ArrowApply, you just want Monad :p |
| 12:57:09 | <shane> | I obviously have those instances as well |
| 12:57:25 | <merijn> | Oh, then I wouldn't even bother with Arrow instances |
| 12:57:27 | <shane> | But the reason I'm using Arrow is because this thing allows a composition that is "faster" than monad composition |
| 12:58:28 | <shane> | The actual type is more complicated than this, but the essence is basically `newtype Foo m i a = Foo (Either (m a) (i -> m a))` |
| 12:58:33 | <merijn> | shane: Composition as in Arrow's "arr b c -> arr a b -> arr a c"? |
| 12:58:57 | <shane> | Yeah. Basically, that can sometimes be `const` for my type |
| 12:59:08 | <merijn> | shane: Don't you just want Category, then? |
| 12:59:16 | <merijn> | That already has that composition |
| 12:59:18 | <shane> | Well I want to use arrow syntax |
| 12:59:42 | <merijn> | I would recommend you don't, because no one else will understand how the hell to read your code :p |
| 12:59:54 | <merijn> | I think maybe 3 people in here understand arrow syntax :p |
| 13:00:59 | <shane> | It's also true that nobody will understand my code if it's just a bunch of `lmap`s and `>>>` |
| 13:01:09 | <kuribas> | I haven't seen a compelling usecase for arrows, where Applicatives wouldn't work better... |
| 13:01:35 | <shane> | Well, I believe that I have one |
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| 14:06:16 | <Arahael> | merijn: Every time I come close, I promptly forget what it is! :) |
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| 14:32:25 | <janus> | does anyone know any alternatively licensed versions of inverseMap from relude? our library is BSD licensed, and relude is MIT. i feel like it could be age-old folklore, maybe there are other versions |
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| 14:36:33 | <tomsmeding> | :t \f -> let m = M.fromListWith (error "non-injective") [(f x, x) <- [minBound..maxBound]] in \y -> M.lookup y m |
| 14:36:34 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 14:36:34 | <lambdabot> | parse error on input ‘<-’ |
| 14:36:34 | <lambdabot> | Perhaps this statement should be within a 'do' block? |
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| 14:36:56 | <tomsmeding> | :t \f -> let m = M.fromListWith (error "non-injective") [(f x, x) | x <- [minBound..maxBound]] in \y -> M.lookup y m |
| 14:36:58 | <lambdabot> | (Ord k, Bounded a, Enum a) => (a -> k) -> k -> Maybe a |
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| 14:37:39 | <janus> | tomsmeding: thanks, what's the license ? ;) |
| 14:37:43 | <tomsmeding> | janus: wrote this without looking at relude sources; I publish it in the public domain :p |
| 14:38:04 | <janus> | amazing, thanks :D |
| 14:38:08 | <tomsmeding> | Check that it has the right behaviour though |
| 14:38:26 | <tomsmeding> | Like, check that from the second call onward it's fast |
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| 14:39:23 | <janus> | well if it has a map on the scope immediatly inside the function. surely it can't be different than relude's if also use INLINE |
| 14:39:34 | <janus> | but better crack open core, i guess |
| 14:39:49 | <tomsmeding> | Just test it :p |
| 14:40:14 | <boxscape> | (I usually do [minBound..] instead of [minBound..maxBound]) |
| 14:40:59 | <tomsmeding> | Right, because enumFrom can potentially be faster than enumFromTo |
| 14:41:01 | <tomsmeding> | Good call |
| 14:41:15 | <boxscape> | I mostly do it because It's shorter but I guess that's not a bad reason either :P |
| 14:41:33 | <boxscape> | though I'm not sure if it really is faster |
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| 14:44:37 | <tomsmeding> | Lol the enumFrom of Word32 is (indirectly) defined as the same as enumFromTo with maxBound |
| 14:44:56 | <boxscape> | yeah I was looking at -ddump-deriv, it's much the same |
| 14:45:05 | <tomsmeding> | They use these functions at the bottom of the file https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/src/GHC-Real.html#integralEnumFrom |
| 14:45:14 | <boxscape> | even if you don't have a Bounded instance it calls enumFromTo $maxtag |
| 14:47:55 | <tomsmeding> | boxscape: that would depend on how the instance in question implements enumFrom, right? |
| 14:48:05 | <tomsmeding> | The default implementation is bonkers for bounded types |
| 14:48:27 | <boxscape> | right, what I mean is that's the enumFrom instance if you write deriving Enum |
| 14:48:32 | <merijn> | Enum is a bonkers and bad class anyway |
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| 14:48:41 | <boxscape> | s/instance/implementation |
| 14:48:42 | <merijn> | Fire into the sun, plx |
| 14:48:53 | <tomsmeding> | boxscape: the default implementation of enumFrom is enumFrom x = map toEnum [fromEnum x ..] |
| 14:49:03 | <tomsmeding> | Which is going to beautifully error out for bounded types |
| 14:49:25 | <tomsmeding> | (which the docs also say) |
| 14:49:26 | <boxscape> | yep though luckily it's not used if you derive Enum |
| 14:49:43 | <tomsmeding> | Ooh _deriving_ Enum, I see |
| 14:50:43 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: what's your suggestion for a replacement? Split off fromEnum/toEnum into a separate class? |
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| 14:52:01 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: 1) get rid of the mapping to ints, it leads to all sorts of bad code, 2) have separate classes for bounded and unbounded types |
| 14:52:16 | <merijn> | 3) nuke "instance Enum Double" from orbit |
| 14:52:29 | <tomsmeding> | Lol can back 3 |
| 14:52:34 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: Why do we have/need fromEnum/toEnum to begin with? |
| 14:52:51 | <tomsmeding> | Although... It's terribly convenient for one-off oneliners |
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| 14:53:24 | <tomsmeding> | But I agree |
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| 14:54:01 | <tomsmeding> | Eh, map fromIntegral [a..b] is fine as a replacement of Enum Double for oneliners |
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| 14:56:14 | <tomsmeding> | Unrelated, why does this exist: instance a ~ b => Bounded (a :~: b) |
| 14:56:30 | <tomsmeding> | I can't imagine a usecase |
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| 14:59:38 | <boxscape> | I imagine the it's there for lack of a reason not to provide it |
| 14:59:50 | <kuribas> | > [minbound..] :: Bool |
| 14:59:51 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 14:59:51 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: minbound |
| 14:59:51 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant ‘minBound’ (imported from Prelude) |
| 14:59:55 | <kuribas> | > [minBound..] :: Bool |
| 14:59:57 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 14:59:57 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘Bool’ with actual type ‘[a0]’ |
| 14:59:57 | <lambdabot> | • In the expression: [minBound .. ] :: Bool |
| 15:00:00 | <kuribas> | > [minBound..] :: [Bool] |
| 15:00:02 | <lambdabot> | [False,True] |
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| 15:08:10 | <boxscape> | % type (:) = Either |
| 15:08:10 | <yahb> | boxscape: ; <interactive>:3:6: error: Malformed head of type or class declaration: (:) |
| 15:08:19 | <boxscape> | hm I don't really see why this is not allowed |
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| 15:13:00 | <tomsmeding> | % type (::) = Either |
| 15:13:00 | <yahb> | tomsmeding: ; <interactive>:5:7: error: parse error on input `::' |
| 15:13:20 | <tomsmeding> | % typw (:!!) = Either |
| 15:13:20 | <yahb> | tomsmeding: ; <interactive>:6:6: error:; Not in scope: data constructor `:!!'; Perhaps you meant variable `!!' (imported from Prelude) |
| 15:13:32 | <tomsmeding> | % type (:!!) = Either |
| 15:13:32 | <yahb> | tomsmeding: |
| 15:13:45 | <tomsmeding> | Four similar lines, for different responses |
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| 15:16:16 | <tomsmeding> | boxscape: isn't the point that type-level operators starting with : are "lowercase operators" and those that do not "uppercase operators" |
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| 15:16:29 | <tomsmeding> | Wait no that makes no sense, ignore |
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| 15:17:08 | <janus> | can you really override (:) ? i thought it was special |
| 15:17:20 | <geekosaur> | so did I tbh |
| 15:17:21 | <janus> | % let (:) :: Int = 5 |
| 15:17:21 | <yahb> | janus: ; <interactive>:8:5: error:; * The constructor `:' should have 2 arguments, but has been given none; * In the pattern: (:); In the pattern: (:) :: Int; In a pattern binding: (:) :: Int = 5; <interactive>:8:5: error:; * Couldn't match expected type `Int' with actual type `[a0]'; * In the pattern: (:); In the pattern: (:) :: Int; In a pattern binding: (:) :: Int = 5 |
| 15:17:24 | <boxscape> | it is special but I don't see why it needs to be |
| 15:17:40 | <boxscape> | on the term level, fine |
| 15:17:48 | <boxscape> | but on the type level it shouldn't need to be special |
| 15:17:55 | <boxscape> | unless I'm missing something |
| 15:17:58 | <boxscape> | which is quite possible |
| 15:18:22 | <tomsmeding> | I guess the specialness is lifted because of DataKinds |
| 15:18:43 | <boxscape> | time to track down a pre-DataKinds ghc version to see if it was special then |
| 15:19:20 | <tomsmeding> | That would be an old ghc |
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| 15:21:08 | <boxscape> | actually though if it's valid Haskell98 it should still work with today's GHC unless it's mentioned in the known bugs and infelicities section |
| 15:21:46 | <tomsmeding> | TIL the datakinds ' doesn't need to be attached to the name; ' A is a fine promoted A |
| 15:22:03 | <tomsmeding> | https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/data_kinds.html#distinguishing-between-types-and-constructors |
| 15:22:25 | <boxscape> | -Wno-unticked-promoted-constructors is one of the first things I enable usually |
| 15:22:33 | <boxscape> | so ghc doesn't tell me to use ticks |
| 15:22:40 | <boxscape> | oh wait |
| 15:22:45 | <boxscape> | I misunderstood what you wrote |
| 15:23:32 | <tomsmeding> | Yeah I was writing about the allowed space |
| 15:24:00 | <tomsmeding> | And the horrible syntax ' A' |
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| 15:24:21 | <boxscape> | ah, nice |
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| 15:38:50 | <boxscape> | alas, the whitespace between tick and constructor can't include a newline |
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| 16:05:21 | <tomsmeding> | boxscape: not sure how "alas" that is |
| 16:05:51 | <boxscape> | it depends on how exciting you want your code to be to unsuspecting readers |
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| 16:05:53 | <geekosaur> | yeh, that just sounds li8ke a way t confuse the reader |
| 16:06:23 | <geekosaur> | remember that also means you in 6b months |
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| 16:11:23 | <kuribas> | Why does <*> needs to be the same as `ap`? |
| 16:11:43 | <kuribas> | Wouldn't it make more sense then to have `ap` in the monad class, so it can be paralellized? |
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| 16:15:19 | <kuribas> | I just feel some of these "laws" are very "arbitrary". |
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| 16:15:59 | <geekosaur> | I think that's just so you can backform an Applicative for an existing Monad by setting <*> = ap |
| 16:16:25 | <geekosaur> | having toi do with the transitional days of AMP |
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| 16:17:43 | <kuribas> | right |
| 16:19:27 | <geekosaur> | also, you can't in general parallelize a Monad, can you? |
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| 16:26:31 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: if ap was defined as <*>, you could potentially parallelise ap |
| 16:26:40 | <kuribas> | geekosaur: no |
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| 16:31:10 | <seiryn> | Can we ask for help on this channel ? |
| 16:31:19 | <geekosaur> | sure |
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| 16:34:28 | <lechner> | Hi, I am having a small love affair with yi, the editor. Why was that project abandoned, please? Also, why doesn't Ctrl-y (yank) work over ssh? |
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| 16:35:20 | <dsal> | Because you should be using mosh, obviously. :P |
| 16:35:53 | <geekosaur> | check terminal settings, ctrl-y at least used to be delayed suspend |
| 16:36:21 | <dsal> | Projects are hard to keep up with. Some of us make hundreds of them to solve small problems and then get lonely because that sort of of application doesn't get a lot of traction. |
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| 16:36:56 | <geekosaur> | yeh, I think they just ran out of people willing to put in time on it |
| 16:37:34 | <geekosaur> | and there are already lots of editors |
| 16:37:46 | <geekosaur> | they're competing with neovim, for example |
| 16:38:22 | <seiryn> | Aaah nevermind, while trying to be sure about the name of the syntax i realised that i missed a language expension huhu |
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| 16:41:47 | <lechner> | geekosaur: on Debian, yi is the only lightweight emacs clone that supports Unicode. There is nothing like it. I even thought about suggesting it to Linus Thorvalds as a replacement for MicroEmacs, which he compiles himself because it cannot be distributed https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/MicroEmacs |
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| 16:53:20 | <sm> | emacs clone ? I thought it was more vi like |
| 16:54:24 | <shapr> | I thought it was both? |
| 16:55:05 | <Clint> | different keybinding sets do not a clone make |
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| 16:56:51 | <sm> | https://github.com/yi-editor/yi/issues/1114 |
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| 17:31:19 | <dsal> | Yeah, if you use emacs and someone has a "great modern editor" that's much better and also has emacs key bindings, you'll generally be very disappointed. Key bindings are a minor part of emacs. |
| 17:31:41 | <dsal> | (which is also architecturally ancient and would be great if something actually *could* replace it, but there have been few attempts) |
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| 17:34:53 | <geekosaur> | supposedly gnu wants to redo emacs based on guile, but they sure are taking a long time to do it |
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| 17:35:10 | <monochrom> | Hell, they still haven't finished Hurd. >:) |
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| 17:35:56 | <monochrom> | And I thought I was the greatest procrastinator especially when it comes to finishing and delivery. |
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| 17:38:10 | <dsal> | Yeah, I guess one of the hard things is that emacs to me is all the modes I run which would be unlikely to work under guile. |
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| 17:38:55 | <dminuoso> | geekosaur: To be fair, "redoing emacs in <insert-language>" is a very popular hobby.. |
| 17:39:25 | <dminuoso> | I wouldn't be surprised if someone has done emacs in elisp - because why not run an editor inside your editor. |
| 17:40:22 | <dsal> | emacs is mostly just an elisp program already |
| 17:40:23 | <geekosaur> | worse than that, I think. iirc someone implemented TECO in elisp, then ran the original emacs in it to show how complete it was |
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| 17:42:10 | <monochrom> | That's pretty deep and ironic inception. :) |
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| 17:54:22 | <justsomeguy> | I'm writing a simple tool to list broken links on a webpage, given a url. Is there any reason not to use Network.HTTP? I vaguely recall getting errors about not being able to retrieve urls that use HTTPS, but can't seem to replicate it. |
| 17:55:19 | <justsomeguy> | I thought I'd ask now, while my program is still small, before I've commited to using a particular library. |
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| 17:59:10 | <justsomeguy> | Actually, I think that was a dumb question. I'll figure it out with some experimentation. |
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| 18:10:08 | <seiryn> | Hmmmm, vim syntax highlighting mess up with quasiquote |
| 18:11:58 | <dminuoso> | I guess syntax highlighting is complicated to do right in Haskell, in particular in the presence of language extensions. |
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| 18:12:24 | <dminuoso> | It seems like you cant reasonably do this well and consistently unless you use ghc-lib |
| 18:15:06 | <maerwald[m]> | seiryn: haha, quasiquotes also break hlint, HLS and hasktags |
| 18:15:29 | <maerwald[m]> | Depending on how you use them |
| 18:15:56 | <seiryn> | Quasiquotes, what do you want to destroy ? YES |
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| 18:19:27 | <seiryn> | What i found is : if you put a string (I.E : something between quote) in quasiquote vim highlight it like a string, but except if it's an expression quasiquote it's not parsed like a string so the highlighting isn't relevant |
| 18:19:54 | <seiryn> | And it's ugly when you have random quote in your quasiquote |
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| 18:24:10 | <monochrom> | Most highlighters are poorly done. |
| 18:24:54 | <monochrom> | And I mean criminally negligently done. |
| 18:25:00 | <seiryn> | Yeaaaah |
| 18:25:32 | <seiryn> | My eyes : https://i.imgur.com/aaPQ6be.png |
| 18:26:03 | <dminuoso> | monochrom: Is there research into how this could be done intelligently? I mean if you bindly toss ghc-lib at it, you will get no highlighting on any syntax error. |
| 18:26:11 | <monochrom> | 99% of string literals are one-line-only, right? And for the 1% that spans multiple lines, the programmer must put some special escape code at the end of each line, right? This is practically true of all languages ever, right? |
| 18:26:53 | <yushyin> | seiryn: maybe nvim-treesitter does a better job? |
| 18:27:17 | <monochrom> | So a highlighter that sees an opening quote character and goes into "this is a char/string literal" mode, it stands to reason to at least exit that mode upon newline, right? |
| 18:27:22 | <seiryn> | yushyin : i don't know but i hope because i can't code in those condition |
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| 18:28:41 | <monochrom> | So I do not mean that a highlighter needs to be intelligent. Regex and FSA are fine, I respect that. |
| 18:28:59 | <monochrom> | I mean that their authors are criminally dumb. |
| 18:29:01 | <seiryn> | dminuoso : The default syntax highlighting of vim is very dumb, it doesn't even involve a syntax tree |
| 18:29:41 | <dminuoso> | seiryn: Did you consider using a custom vim script? |
| 18:29:45 | <dminuoso> | Perhaps https://github.com/neovimhaskell/haskell-vim ? |
| 18:30:17 | <monochrom> | Like what fantasy world do they live in such that if they see an opening quote character and then if it isn't closed by the end of that same line they just assume that nothing has gone wrong? |
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| 18:30:26 | <dminuoso> | monochrom: I can think a ton of reasons to be criminaly dumb on purpose in a highlighter |
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| 18:30:30 | <dminuoso> | Consider a highlighter in emacs lisp. |
| 18:30:54 | <yushyin> | seiryn: https://paste.xinu.at/7Li/ |
| 18:30:58 | <dminuoso> | Naive approaches quickly generate high amounts of objects, which can cause GC issues |
| 18:32:04 | <monochrom> | Well that's the other kind of criminally dumb in terms of even asymptotic costs. |
| 18:32:21 | <seiryn> | yushyin : Thanks |
| 18:32:24 | <monochrom> | It's why I respect choosing regexes and FSA and KISS |
| 18:32:43 | <monochrom> | But within that framework, the problem of runaway string literals is trivial to solve. |
| 18:32:45 | <seiryn> | Hmmmmm |
| 18:32:52 | <seiryn> | I try something with the syntax file |
| 18:32:58 | <monochrom> | or at least s/solve/mitigate/ |
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| 18:56:13 | <seiryn> | Yeah so you can easily mitigate the problem but vim-treesitter is better |
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| 19:01:26 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: "I mean that their authors are criminally dumb." -- that's kind of criminally rude |
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| 19:03:10 | <tomsmeding> | The wonder of open source is that the non-criminally-dumb people can help the criminally-dumb people out in making better software ;) |
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| 19:05:14 | <monochrom> | What if the dumb people outvote the non-dumb people? This has happened before. Good PRs are rejected by stubborn authors every once in a while. |
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| 19:06:45 | <tomsmeding> | At which point you can fork :) |
| 19:07:29 | <tomsmeding> | I'm not disagreeing with you, just disagreeing with the wording "criminally dumb" |
| 19:07:34 | <tomsmeding> | But I'll stop :p |
| 19:08:17 | <monochrom> | I don't make that kind of strong accusations lightly. |
| 19:09:10 | <monochrom> | Someone who writes a highlighter for the first time, if they haven't thought of the issue I explained, I wouldn't be complaining. It is not an obvious issue for a first-timer. |
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| 19:11:39 | <monochrom> | But a highlighter that has been in production use for 10 years? During which you have seen the runaway string literal problem show up a million times? During which you have learned that there are languages that use unmatched quote characters to stand for something other than string/char literals and so one should do at least a tiny little bit of mitigation? And I just mean mitigation, damage control, you don't have to fully solve the problem? |
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| 19:13:41 | <monochrom> | And in the context of "I use a simple regex because it is right for 90% of the cases, that's good enough", and then here we see that it is wrong for 90% of the cases? |
| 19:14:10 | <monochrom> | And the simple fix is simply adding one small thing to your existing regex? |
| 19:14:24 | <monochrom> | And after all those 10 years the author still hasn't acted? |
| 19:14:26 | <dolio> | monochrom: Maybe they're highlighting Haskell. |
| 19:14:39 | <dolio> | "This is valid on a single line\ |
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| 19:15:08 | <monochrom> | I have already covered that from two sides. |
| 19:15:13 | <dolio> | :) |
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| 19:15:28 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: what if the author hasn't acted? Well, you ask them to act :p |
| 19:16:04 | <tomsmeding> | Not acting is not criminal, and only implies dumbness if there are no external considerations |
| 19:16:22 | <tomsmeding> | Chris Done hasn't fixed a lot of bugs in ircbrowse, but is he dumb? I assume not :p |
| 19:16:41 | <dolio> | Not acting can be criminal. |
| 19:17:17 | <tomsmeding> | You don't have the author on contract for fixing stuff; if you do and they don't, then criminality enters the picture |
| 19:17:48 | <dolio> | I think that would be civil. |
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| 19:17:58 | <tomsmeding> | But maybe I'm too much of a sheltered homeboy that gets scared at strong language :p |
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| 19:18:16 | <tomsmeding> | dolio: indeed, even then :p |
| 19:19:19 | <dolio> | I tried writing vim highlighting that correctly recognized bad Haskell strings and it was pretty difficult. |
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| 19:20:06 | <dolio> | Probably not as difficult as correctly recognizing other stuff in vi, though. |
| 19:20:14 | <dolio> | Vim, even. |
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| 19:21:20 | geekosaur | flashes back totrying to hack around early cperl-mode bugs |
| 19:23:13 | <dolio> | The problem is that Vim has a system that seems like it should allow you to do some amount of hierarchical and context sensitive parsing, but in practice the features have really weird interactions that make it very difficult to actually parse anything. |
| 19:24:55 | tomsmeding | 's only knowledge about vim highlighting rules comes from at some point trying to ad-hoc understand enough to change a regex somewhere |
| 19:26:03 | <tomsmeding> | Also neither sublime text's nor vim's standard LaTeX highlighting works correctly with % within \verb| | blocks or math snippets |
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| 22:51:27 | <boxscape> | Does a RULES pragma like this make sense to improve performance? I'm a little surprised that it accepts the rule without unsafeCoerce, and I wouldn't have expected `test` to still output something sensible if the rule fires |
| 22:51:28 | <boxscape> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/O7KCORMk |
| 22:51:50 | <boxscape> | (in my actual application I don't actually care whether or not the structure of the witness is correct, which made me think about adding this rule to begin with) |
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| 22:52:01 | <boxscape> | also, is there a way to see if the rule actually fires? |
| 22:52:49 | <dminuoso> | boxscape: Is -fenable-rewrite-rules enabled? |
| 22:52:57 | <boxscape> | ooh that would be smart |
| 22:53:18 | <boxscape> | hm enabling it doesn't change things |
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| 22:55:15 | <boxscape> | ah, but it doesn't fire. Changing the rhs with `unsafeCoerce 4` also doesn't change the result |
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| 22:55:21 | <boxscape> | s/with/to |
| 22:56:28 | <Guest35> | Hello, I'm not getting anything from the haskell vscode extension other than code highlighting. So type errors, auto formatting and others are not working. Any ideas? I'm using stack and ghc 8.10.4 |
| 22:58:38 | <boxscape> | (ah, also, -ddump-rule-firings exists, which also doesn't show any firings. Could be I'm still missing something about how to get rules to fire in general) |
| 22:59:14 | <glguy> | Guest35: I don't know about stack, but if you're using HLS there's a Haskell section in the Output tab |
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| 23:00:58 | <dibblego> | Guest35: https://i.imgur.com/ilVgn1q.png |
| 23:01:21 | <Guest35> | I don't see any Haskell section there, which I guess the haskell extension is not working for some reason |
| 23:01:36 | <Guest35> | @dibblego yes I'm using that one |
| 23:01:36 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 23:02:22 | <Guest35> | too used to discord... haha |
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