Logs on 2021-08-19 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:22:40 | <dzdcnfzd> | I don't know if this question makes sense but I am trying to figure out what the name for a concept I'm sure exists is. |
| 02:23:40 | <dzdcnfzd> | Imagine I wanted to write something like the bind operator but I wanted the first argument to be either an `a` or an `m a` |
| 02:24:03 | <dzdcnfzd> | But I didn't want to have to wrap my value in an Either |
| 02:25:17 | <dzdcnfzd> | Obviously there's overloading, but the thing about overloading is it doesn't necessarily generalize |
| 02:26:28 | <dzdcnfzd> | If I have a function with 5 arguments, each of which can be either `m a` or `a`, that would imply 2^5 overloads (plus I don't think overloading would even work in haskell) |
| 02:26:57 | <dzdcnfzd> | Is there a name for the language feature I'm trying to get at? |
| 02:29:48 | <arahael> | dzdcnfzd: Define Functor or something for it, then. |
| 02:29:58 | <arahael> | dzdcnfzd: Ie, an instance of Functor a. |
| 02:30:12 | <monochrom> | Sorry, I am a very strong-and-static typing person, I cannot take that feature seriously, I would call it Telepathy, or at best The-Mess-Known-As-C++. |
| 02:31:06 | <monochrom> | My solution is that I only need the standard bind, and I can always hand-write "return x >>= k" if x::X rather than x::M X. |
| 02:31:55 | <dzdcnfzd> | monochrom: What is the benefit? |
| 02:32:38 | <monochrom> | It does not need a high level of C++ telepathy? |
| 02:32:46 | <monochrom> | KISS? |
| 02:33:10 | <dzdcnfzd> | I have never heard the term C++ telepathy before |
| 02:34:08 | <monochrom> | I gather that the mass would call it magic. |
| 02:35:45 | <dzdcnfzd> | what I don't get is that it seems like you could do this very simply using a union type, but then you'd have to explicitly wrap everything in a union type |
| 02:36:16 | <dzdcnfzd> | Which seems like a lot of boilerplate |
| 02:36:33 | <dzdcnfzd> | arahael: I'm trying to come up with the code for it |
| 02:37:18 | <arahael> | instance Functor a where fmap ... (something like that?) |
| 02:37:46 | <dzdcnfzd> | No, I mean for the overloaded function |
| 02:38:21 | <dzdcnfzd> | We have class Liftable m |
| 02:38:31 | <dzdcnfzd> | where lift :: a -> m a↓ |
| 02:40:02 | <monochrom> | "return :: Monad a => a -> m a" already exists. |
| 02:41:11 | <dzdcnfzd> | Yeah, but that's sort of my point. If you want to write `overloader :: (a or m a) -> (b or m b) -> m c` I don't know what the type signature is |
| 02:42:54 | <shachaf> | This is like when people in dynamically-typed languages have a function that takes either a thing or a list of things, based on type dispatch. |
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| 02:44:42 | <shachaf> | It mostly just makes worse APIs in that situation, and this sounds like the same sort of thing. |
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| 02:46:15 | <dzdcnfzd> | shachaf: I don't immediately see why it would make a worse API for a bind-like operator |
| 02:46:59 | <Cale> | dzdcnfzd: There's a bit of a problem in that it can be ambiguous whether you meant to use ordinary (>>=), or you meant to apply return to the argument, in the case that it *does* have a type like m t, since that could still just be the a |
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| 02:47:36 | <Cale> | It's possible (and sometimes desirable) to have types like m (m a) |
| 02:48:01 | <dzdcnfzd> | Cale: Agree. I can't figure out if that's a fatal objection though. There are lots of times where the compiler can't figure out the types without explicit typing, so maybe sometimes you just have to specify? |
| 02:48:38 | <Cale> | Well, you could make this kind of thing happen with overlapping instances, but I wouldn't recommend it. |
| 02:50:43 | <dzdcnfzd> | Cale: Interesting. Reading. |
| 02:51:25 | <dzdcnfzd> | I should note I'm not trying to do this right now. I was just wondering about it because it seems like an interesting idea that could cut down on boilerplate |
| 02:51:48 | <Cale> | When do you ever write return v >>= (\k -> ...) anyway? |
| 02:51:57 | <dzdcnfzd> | Lots! |
| 02:51:59 | <Cale> | You could always just have written let k = v in ... |
| 02:52:31 | <Cale> | That's one of the monad laws, so it's guaranteed to be a valid simplification |
| 02:53:55 | <dzdcnfzd> | No, you're correct now that I think. To be honest with you, I'm actually thinking about a Java-library, not haskell |
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| 02:55:20 | <dzdcnfzd> | A java futures library that has an andThen(Promise<T>...) call overloaded on the nunber of promises |
| 02:56:11 | <dzdcnfzd> | frequently you run into a situation where one or two of your parameters is just a T, and not a Promise<T> |
| 02:56:59 | <dzdcnfzd> | So I was trying to think about what would be required in a language to make this simpler |
| 02:58:43 | <Cale> | Shouldn't there be an easy way to make a promise that's immediately satisfied? |
| 02:59:23 | <dzdcnfzd> | There is, but it is disfavored for reasons I actually do not understand |
| 02:59:50 | <Cale> | Well, also... |
| 02:59:52 | <dzdcnfzd> | People say it screws up refactors or something |
| 02:59:56 | <Cale> | If I understand what andThen is |
| 03:00:01 | <Cale> | Is that bind? |
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| 03:00:12 | <Axman6> | Anyone ever wish that type equality had its own language extension? Needuing TypeFamilies or GADTs to do foo ~ bar seems like overkill |
| 03:00:12 | <dzdcnfzd> | It is precisely bind |
| 03:00:30 | <dzdcnfzd> | but with more than 1 argument |
| 03:00:39 | <dzdcnfzd> | Because there's no nice do-notation |
| 03:00:43 | <Cale> | hmm |
| 03:00:47 | <dzdcnfzd> | Because Java |
| 03:01:03 | <dzdcnfzd> | So the let- strategy doesn't work |
| 03:01:05 | <Cale> | Axman6: Maybe, though you kind of need one of those extensions to make it useful, don't you? |
| 03:01:21 | <Cale> | dzdcnfzd: Just applying the function doesn't work? |
| 03:01:37 | <Axman6> | it's also useful when doing type class based type nonsense too |
| 03:01:48 | <Cale> | Maybe I don't understand what the multiple-arguments version means |
| 03:02:04 | <joeyh> | one way you can make overloading scale is with a helper function. start with class Conv a b where conv :: a -> b and then use that to make the helper function x & y = x (conv y) and that allows writing eg: foo & a & b & c & d |
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| 03:02:18 | <Cale> | Axman6: ahhh... yeah, to make instances that commit early and then complain if the type doesn't match |
| 03:02:31 | <dzdcnfzd> | you mean andThen(promiseValue1, Promise.of(barValue1))... |
| 03:03:07 | <dzdcnfzd> | joeyh: ooh, clever |
| 03:03:32 | <Cale> | dzdcnfzd: Like, let's say you have some known value v, and you wanted to write mkPromise(v).andThen(foo), couldn't you always just write foo(v) ? |
| 03:04:01 | <monochrom> | But foo will not have a function type. Because Java. |
| 03:04:01 | <Cale> | dzdcnfzd: I'm not sure what the next argument to andThen might mean though... |
| 03:04:15 | <Cale> | monochrom: Surely it's got to be something callable? |
| 03:04:16 | <joeyh> | you will need FlexibleInstances to implement the Conv type class. Also all the good punctuation is taken :P |
| 03:04:32 | <Cale> | Someone link the documentation :D |
| 03:05:23 | <Cale> | foo.apply(v)? |
| 03:05:24 | <dzdcnfzd> | Cale: Sorry, the full API is: antThen(Promise<T1> x1, Promise<T2> x2, ..., Function<T1, T2, ...., Promise<S> transform) |
| 03:05:37 | <dzdcnfzd> | Missed a bracket there |
| 03:05:44 | <dzdcnfzd> | Function<T1, T2, ...., Promise<S>> transform |
| 03:05:53 | <Cale> | ahh, it's like liftMn |
| 03:06:02 | <Cale> | Or <$> and <*> |
| 03:06:13 | <dzdcnfzd> | Yes, exactly |
| 03:06:38 | <dzdcnfzd> | And it produces a Promise<S> |
| 03:06:47 | <dzdcnfzd> | so you chain the calls |
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| 03:09:30 | <Cale> | I guess the trick is that the function which is the last argument is annoying to partially apply to the known values |
| 03:09:31 | <monochrom> | I would seriously just write like "andThen(x1, unit(10), x3, ..., callback)", or s/unit/whatever the monadic unit of Promise is called in Java/ |
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| 03:10:52 | <Cale> | Yeah, that's not too bad if you have a known function, the other option being like andThen (x1, x3, ..., (v1,v3,...) -> callback(v1,10,v3,...)) |
| 03:11:55 | <Cale> | If you're writing the continuation inline, then just inlining the known parameter might be easiest |
| 03:12:32 | <monochrom> | Inlining the known parameter would be what I call "bad for refactoring". |
| 03:13:17 | <Cale> | Maybe sometimes |
| 03:13:25 | <monochrom> | "andThen(x1, unit(10), x3, ..., callback)" is good for refactoring because it is a trivial sed to replace "unit(10)" by x2, when one day you have a non-trivial x2. |
| 03:13:32 | <Cale> | Other times it would be a good refactoring to do |
| 03:14:06 | <monochrom> | or alternatively if one day x3 needs to be trivialized to unit("hello") |
| 03:14:10 | <Cale> | Like, if the callback is a thing that only really gets used once and is maybe already written as an inline lambda |
| 03:14:24 | <Cale> | Then maybe it just has a parameter it shouldn't have |
| 03:14:44 | <monochrom> | But generally and meta-ly I wouldn't be surprised if the Java community hates the algebraic POV. |
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| 03:15:47 | <monochrom> | The algebraic POV says that where you have a >>= you also have a unit, where you have <|> you also have empty, where you have <> you also have mempty. The identity element of the binary operator you care about. |
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| 03:17:52 | <monochrom> | The identity element looks useless, algebra haters will say "why would you even give it a name? it does nothing, you will never use it". |
| 03:18:12 | <monochrom> | Ah but one day you find yourself needing "if x>0 then identity element else non-trivial thing". |
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| 03:18:59 | <Cale> | I can see where if the unit is sufficiently expensive, then people start having a decent reason to avoid it, but that's something that should probably be fixed. |
| 03:19:02 | <monochrom> | And it arises from refactoring "if x>0 then last thing else non-trivial thing <> last thing" |
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| 03:21:56 | <monochrom> | Java enjoys JIT. There are a lot of more inefficient code people embrace and never question. |
| 03:28:22 | <dzdcnfzd> | Inlining is what we currently do but I hate it because it makes code 3 times as long |
| 03:28:37 | <Cale> | Wait, why? |
| 03:29:10 | <dzdcnfzd> | andThen(promise1, ...., promiseN, (var1, ...., varN) -> nextFunction(var1, ...., varN)) |
| 03:29:20 | <Cale> | Oh, I guess |
| 03:29:29 | <dzdcnfzd> | vs. andThen (promise1, ... promiseN, this::nextFunction) |
| 03:29:56 | <dzdcnfzd> | This adds up when you've got 8-15 parameters |
| 03:30:33 | <Cale> | Yeah, if there's already a fixed function which you could just name, then definitely, I would go with monochrom's approach of applying the unit for your promise monad. |
| 03:31:52 | <Cale> | If the argument against it is efficiency, it's the difference of constructing a trivial promise vs. constructing a lambda that you otherwise don't need. |
| 03:32:40 | <Cale> | Both of those should typically be ignorable in terms of cost |
| 03:32:46 | <dzdcnfzd> | Cale: That's what I wanted to do. Unfortunately, I work at a big shop, and so *gestures at the style guide* is a fairly ironclad argument. |
| 03:32:58 | <dzdcnfzd> | Style-guide says don't do it so we don't. |
| 03:33:32 | <dzdcnfzd> | I was more interested in what it would take not to have to make this tradeoff at all |
| 03:33:49 | <dzdcnfzd> | It's a sort of dynamic operator overloading |
| 03:33:59 | <dzdcnfzd> | I assumed there was some name for what I was thinking about |
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| 08:29:12 | <kuribas> | WTF is this error? https://gist.github.com/kuribas/90201dd14089bec6b9fd38cd650b9c2a |
| 08:29:38 | <kuribas> | Do I miss something? Ld_model_turbine is a type... |
| 08:29:47 | <kuribas> | ah wait, there's a typo there.... |
| 08:30:00 | <dibblego> | typo |
| 08:30:02 | <Hecate> | yeah, turine |
| 08:30:33 | <dibblego> | also, aside, I have written this data type, but for manned aircraft i.e. including engine, mount position, etc |
| 08:30:50 | <kuribas> | Is this because I enabled DataKinds? |
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| 08:32:51 | <kuribas> | dibblego: you mean my datatype? |
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| 08:37:05 | <kuribas> | dibblego: it's part of a specification for wind turbines... |
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| 08:39:34 | <kuribas> | I am making a tool for reading this from CSV and storing into our database model. |
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| 08:59:25 | <kenran> | In case anyone is using the haskell-mode in Emacs: (How) can I have two separate interactive sessions for, say, a library and its test-suite? Right now, if I'm working with a library module, I can `haskell-process-load-file`, but when I want to do the same thing in a test module of the same cabal package, I seem to need to switch the session target first (which in turn leads to the same problem |
| 08:59:27 | <kenran> | after switching back to the first buffer). |
| 08:59:59 | <kuribas> | kenran: idk, but there is also #haskell-emacs |
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| 09:01:29 | <kenran> | kuribas: oh cool, I didn't know. Thanks, I'll ask there then, seems more fitting |
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| 09:02:55 | <kuribas> | kenran: though that was on freenode... |
| 09:03:34 | <kenran> | kuribas: I see. Just joined it (as you have probably have noticed, being one of the now-6 people there :) |
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| 10:17:12 | <dibblego> | kuribas: yes, just similar |
| 10:18:00 | <kuribas> | dibblego: well, a wind turbine is the direct opposite of an aircraft. One uses wind to create power, the other uses power to create wind :) |
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| 10:21:18 | <dibblego> | I just mean, distinguishing engine type, mount positin, etc |
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| 12:11:09 | <timCF> | Hello! Is there some easy method to make derived Show instances of my data more readable when ByteString fields/newtypes are presented? Default ByteString Show instance kinda hard to read, I definitely would prefer representation which looks like just list of bytes, for example `[43, 23, 0, 1]`. |
| 12:12:30 | <merijn> | You shouldn't really be using Show for "readable" things anyway. You'd wanna use a pretty printer for that. When it comes to debug readability you can look at stuff like |
| 12:12:34 | <merijn> | @hackage pretty-show |
| 12:12:34 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pretty-show |
| 12:12:41 | <merijn> | Which can reformat existing Show output |
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| 12:14:36 | <timCF> | merijn: so it still can use default derived Show instances? All what I want is to not write them by hand or TH, but have different ByteString representation, literally as list of bytes |
| 12:15:43 | <merijn> | timCF: There's missing context of when/for what you wanna use this output |
| 12:16:07 | <timCF> | merijn: for logging |
| 12:17:21 | <merijn> | timCF: I mean, you could also just use a newtype around the bytestring with a custom implementation of show |
| 12:17:27 | <merijn> | timCF: Or add a Loggable class |
| 12:18:57 | <timCF> | merijn: true, but I want also be able to log values of types which I do not control (can't add newtypes that easy to foreign codebase) |
| 12:21:20 | <timCF> | probably introducing my own ShowDebug class with some smart deriving based on GHC.Generics is the easiest way? |
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| 12:22:34 | <merijn> | Depends on how frequently you log, because that will probably be slow |
| 12:23:51 | <timCF> | merijn: Hmm. I'm logging a lot. It definitely should be fast in runtime. And preferrably compile-time as well (otherwise probably TH is the way to go) |
| 12:23:54 | <dminuoso> | In my experience when Show/pretty-show is not enough, just go write ppr* functions., |
| 12:24:22 | <dminuoso> | I hated myself every time I used a typeclass for it and reverted it. |
| 12:25:45 | <timCF> | dminuoso: merijn: I'll take a look at pretty-show, maybe with it I can somehow make ByteString fields more readable without creating new classes, using GHC.Generics or TH |
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| 13:06:43 | <siers> | Is there some operation for Just a +++ Just b = Just (a max b)? the "max" could probably be something generic implemented by some typeclass |
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| 13:07:12 | <siers> | and the rest would be like for monad alternative – Nothing^2 = Nothing, Just + Nothing = Just and vice versa |
| 13:07:13 | <merijn> | siers: Yes! |
| 13:07:27 | <merijn> | siers: That's just Monoid + Max newtype :p |
| 13:07:40 | <merijn> | > Just (Max 1) <> Just (Max 3) |
| 13:07:42 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 13:07:42 | <lambdabot> | • Data constructor not in scope: Max :: t0 -> a |
| 13:07:42 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant variable ‘max’ (imported from Data.Ord)error: |
| 13:07:47 | <merijn> | aww |
| 13:08:01 | <merijn> | > Just (Data.Semigroup.Max 1) <> Just (Data.Semigroup.Max 3) |
| 13:08:03 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 13:08:03 | <lambdabot> | Not in scope: data constructor ‘Data.Semigroup.Max’ |
| 13:08:03 | <lambdabot> | No module named ‘Data.Semigroup’ is imported.error: |
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| 13:08:08 | <siers> | what about Nothing +++ Just 1 = Just 1? |
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| 13:08:30 | <merijn> | siers: Nothing is the identity elements, so yes :) |
| 13:08:45 | <merijn> | Or you want Alternative maybe? |
| 13:09:07 | <merijn> | :t mplus |
| 13:09:08 | <lambdabot> | MonadPlus m => m a -> m a -> m a |
| 13:09:14 | <siers> | hm, I was certain it's not going to be a monoid... good that it is |
| 13:09:40 | <merijn> | % import Data.Semigroup(Max(..)) |
| 13:09:40 | <yahb> | merijn: |
| 13:09:53 | <merijn> | % Just (Max 1) <> Just (Max 2) |
| 13:09:53 | <yahb> | merijn: Just (Max {getMax = 2}) |
| 13:10:00 | <merijn> | % Just (Max 1) <> Nothing |
| 13:10:00 | <yahb> | merijn: Just (Max {getMax = 1}) |
| 13:10:10 | <siers> | nice... I really like monoids |
| 13:10:26 | <merijn> | You'll need to fmap a getMax over the Maybe in the end, but other than that it just works |
| 13:10:30 | <merijn> | Everyone loves monoids :) |
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| 13:14:29 | <maerwald> | packBytes uses `List.length` on the input, does that mean it won't fuse? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytestring-0.11.1.0/docs/src/Data.ByteString.Internal.html#packBytes |
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| 13:26:23 | <kuribas> | Is there a decent defaults package? |
| 13:26:43 | <merijn> | defaults? |
| 13:26:54 | <kuribas> | data-default-class is from 2016, and doesn't support many types, like Text, Map, etc... |
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| 13:27:19 | <merijn> | That's because it's a dumb class |
| 13:27:28 | <kuribas> | perhaps, but it's useful :) |
| 13:27:42 | <merijn> | Disagree :p |
| 13:27:51 | <kuribas> | well, it's useful for me. |
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| 13:28:07 | <merijn> | I doubt you'll find anything better, tbh |
| 13:28:10 | <kuribas> | for example, I need to insert a record into the database, where some fields are ignored. |
| 13:28:29 | <kuribas> | I want to just fill them with defaults, rather than having to write a value for each. |
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| 13:29:12 | <merijn> | I mean, you can accomplish that by just defining a partially applied record that you update or a pattern synonym too? |
| 13:29:19 | <merijn> | How does the default class help? |
| 13:29:33 | <kuribas> | not at all |
| 13:30:15 | <kuribas> | I cannot insert a partially applied record into the database. |
| 13:30:39 | <merijn> | I mean, just fill the default and update that during parsing |
| 13:30:48 | <kuribas> | by hand? |
| 13:31:30 | <merijn> | As opposed to? |
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| 13:32:06 | <kuribas> | using Generic |
| 13:32:08 | <kuribas> | Generics |
| 13:32:47 | <merijn> | I don't really see how Generics would help? You need to specify what the defaults are somehow |
| 13:34:42 | <kuribas> | merijn: it derives them. |
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| 13:35:00 | <kuribas> | For example data Foo = Foo Int String => def = Foo 0 "" |
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| 13:35:32 | <merijn> | And all your defaults happen to exactly match the default values for all types? |
| 13:35:42 | <kuribas> | I don't really care what goes there. |
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| 13:36:07 | <kuribas> | They should be ignored anyway. |
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| 15:28:15 | <dsal> | It seems that if you're storing data your intend to ignore, it'd be better to not store it. |
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| 15:32:32 | <kuribas> | if I run cabal-repl, then load a package (for example :set -package pretty-simple), it has unloaded my project? |
| 15:32:35 | <kuribas> | How can I load a package without unloading what is there? |
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| 15:40:06 | <kuribas> | it's just very annoying... |
| 15:40:19 | <c_wraith> | kuribas: add the extra packages when starting the repl with extra -b arguments |
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| 15:40:54 | <kuribas> | c_wraith: so you cannot load into a running ghci? |
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| 15:43:59 | <c_wraith> | I mean, I guess you can, then :load modules from your current package afterwards |
| 15:44:13 | <c_wraith> | but it's always going to clear local definitions |
| 15:44:58 | <kuribas> | that's kinda ok. |
| 15:46:44 | <c_wraith> | .... tbh, I kind of think cabal repl's choice to load all exposed modules in your package is weird anyway |
| 15:47:40 | <kuribas> | does it load the modules, or only make them available? |
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| 15:49:39 | <kuribas> | I do :set -package pretty-simple, then import Snapshot.CSV => Could not find module 'Snapshot.CSV' |
| 15:51:04 | <kuribas> | hmm :l works |
| 15:51:22 | <c_wraith> | yes, :load is for source, import is for compiled code in packages you depend on |
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| 15:53:40 | <kuribas> | What if I want to create something in one module, then apply functions from another module to it? |
| 15:53:50 | <kuribas> | All this is pretty easy in clojure... |
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| 15:54:47 | <c_wraith> | then... just do it? |
| 15:55:09 | <c_wraith> | Err. I don't mean in response to the Clojure remark. |
| 15:55:15 | <c_wraith> | I mean you can load multiple files |
| 15:55:25 | <kuribas> | load doesn't unload existing bindings? |
| 15:56:12 | <c_wraith> | it does |
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| 15:56:48 | <kuribas> | so I load a value using one module, then the binding is gone when I load the other... |
| 15:56:55 | <c_wraith> | just load both |
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| 16:02:47 | <kuribas> | in which case there is no point in using cabal-repl? |
| 16:02:58 | <c_wraith> | Oh, I see. When you :load multiple source files, only the first one is put in scope automatically. You have to import the rest |
| 16:03:20 | <kuribas> | except the rest is not anymore availble |
| 16:03:48 | <c_wraith> | ... are you not using :load with multiple files at once? |
| 16:04:24 | <sclv> | :mod+ or import also work to manage scope |
| 16:04:48 | <c_wraith> | because I assure you, you can load and work with multiple modules at once. |
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| 16:05:07 | <kuribas> | hmm, ok then |
| 16:05:49 | <c_wraith> | :load Foo Bar will make both available, and put Foo into scope. You can import Bar afterwards to have both in scope |
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| 16:13:06 | <c_wraith> | anyway. Things like this have fewer gotchas in clojure because lisp is based on mutating the global environment all the time anyway. def mutates the global bindings available. The language semantics are centered around mutating the global bindings. Haskell assumes the global bindings are a static list. So if you change them, GHC has chosen the ultra-conservative approach of restarting from scratch, because a lot of things weren't designed to handle |
| 16:13:06 | <c_wraith> | it otherwise. |
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| 16:13:48 | <kuribas> | yeah, it would be theoretically possible, but very hard to implement. |
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| 16:15:36 | <c_wraith> | It's especially annoying with modules that unsafePerformIO constants into their top-level bindings. |
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| 16:16:27 | <c_wraith> | Particularly when it's something like a global MVar that the module uses as a mutex |
| 16:16:44 | <c_wraith> | Which isn't a great design, but I've seen packages do it |
| 16:17:34 | <c_wraith> | and I understand the impulse when binding to C libraries that corrupt their own memory when called concurrently |
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| 16:19:01 | <c_wraith> | Like.. there actually isn't a good alternative in that case. Nothing is safe! |
| 16:19:21 | <kuribas> | but many lisps also allow side effects at module level. |
| 16:19:27 | <kuribas> | They just give up on safety... |
| 16:19:39 | <kuribas> | although probably not segfault... |
| 16:20:03 | <c_wraith> | but at least module designers think about dynamic loading when writing code that does that. |
| 16:20:18 | <c_wraith> | Haskell authors tend not to, because it's not a language feature. |
| 16:20:51 | <kuribas> | well, IMO haskell authors shouldn't do that... |
| 16:21:30 | <kuribas> | Put mutable variables in global variables. |
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| 16:22:00 | <c_wraith> | Until dynamic loading gets involved, it's the least-bad way to handle bindings to C libraries that don't provide a thread-safe interface |
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| 16:22:27 | <kuribas> | ah right |
| 16:22:30 | <c_wraith> | when dynamic loading gets involved, every way to handle bindings to such a library is bad |
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| 17:07:05 | <siers> | is it possible to diff basic types with this? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gdiff-1.1/docs/Data-Generic-Diff.html#t:Family |
| 17:07:12 | <siers> | the html anchor was accidental |
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| 17:08:49 | <siers> | I was thinking lists of, say, ints |
| 17:09:32 | <siers> | it seems like a cool idea, but I am a bit too incompetent to figure out how to make use of it as for now |
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| 17:12:21 | <siers> | ah, the pdf in the docs should have examples, apparently |
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| 17:19:07 | <siers> | it probably doesn't work with lists, because it needs a GADT-defined type, it seems |
| 17:19:48 | <lechner> | Hi, here is a nice personal article from the Haskell Weekly https://cscalfani.medium.com/why-is-learning-functional-programming-so-damned-hard-bfd00202a7d1 |
| 17:21:59 | mnrmnaugh | is now known as KeziahMason |
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| 17:25:28 | <tomsmeding> | siers: you _could_ use that library, but it's probably too focused on diffing trees (ADTs are trees, really) as opposed to diffing lists |
| 17:25:50 | <tomsmeding> | like, you could define a GADT that is just a cons list, map a [] list to that, diff, and convert back |
| 17:26:02 | <tomsmeding> | but you're probably better off using a dedicated algorithm for diffing lists of things |
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| 17:27:15 | <tomsmeding> | siers: possible alternative: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/patience-0.3/docs/Patience.html (note: just found this lib on hackage, never used it personally) |
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| 17:28:40 | <sclv> | the standard diff pkg can diff lists of anything with eq |
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| 17:29:59 | <tomsmeding> | that would be https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Diff , which is used in https://hackage.haskell.org/package/diff3 |
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| 17:30:25 | <siers> | I was wanting to play with a package that can do both lists and trees |
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| 17:34:01 | <dsal> | lechner: That's interesting. A shorter story, imo, is that unlearning is harder than learning. |
| 17:34:36 | <lechner> | yeah, i thought it was a bit long too |
| 17:35:48 | <lechner> | at least i'm not alone |
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| 17:39:22 | <monochrom> | No, it is me who is alone. |
| 17:39:35 | <lechner> | in what? |
| 17:40:19 | <tomsmeding> | siers: ah I think you only have to make a suitable description GADT and Family instance to be able to diff lists using gdiff |
| 17:40:25 | <monochrom> | I learn by starting from clean slate. My mind has some unusual ability of doing that. Resisting from making premature "connection" "analogy" with what I previously knew. |
| 17:41:18 | <Lycurgus> | O.o |
| 17:41:28 | <monochrom> | I learned FP on its own terms, not by "how to translate to/from the Pascal and C I have so fondly known" |
| 17:42:13 | <Lycurgus> | when them was things |
| 17:42:54 | <monochrom> | Besides, recursion really makes more sense than iteration. Recursion enjoys induction directly. Iteration is more indirect. |
| 17:43:46 | <lechner> | monochrom: were you motivated by a desire to reduce bugs, or did you like Haskell for other reasons? |
| 17:44:03 | <Lycurgus> | i remember about a half century ago asking in my first IT job what recursion was |
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| 17:44:20 | <Rembane_> | Lycurgus: Did they answer with: "See recursion." ? |
| 17:44:29 | <monochrom> | I am motivated by the desire to reduce bugs all my life. Haskell helps, yes. But not the only way. |
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| 17:44:41 | <lechner> | Rembane_: that's funny! |
| 17:44:48 | <Lycurgus> | no it was an RPG shop on 370/120 |
| 17:44:52 | <monochrom> | But Haskell happens to have almost everything I like. |
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| 17:45:00 | <Lycurgus> | or 115 or whatever the low end |
| 17:45:15 | <lechner> | monochrom: what's missing? |
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| 17:46:12 | <Rembane_> | lechner: ^^ |
| 17:46:29 | <Rembane_> | Lycurgus: Good name. |
| 17:46:31 | <monochrom> | Sometimes I still like low-level programming. Sometimes I still like parameterized modules. |
| 17:46:40 | <monochrom> | Sometimes I sitll like real records. |
| 17:46:51 | <Lycurgus> | we love hs but the masses never will |
| 17:46:59 | <maerwald> | why should they |
| 17:47:04 | <maerwald> | let them do python |
| 17:47:11 | <Lycurgus> | js |
| 17:47:15 | <monochrom> | Yeah please don't let the mass like Haskell. They would ruin it. |
| 17:47:43 | <lechner> | rust |
| 17:47:48 | <Lycurgus> | Rembane_, ty |
| 17:48:00 | <maerwald> | lechner: that's just a word, you know? |
| 17:48:07 | <chreekat[m]> | I'm hoping people are joking right now |
| 17:48:18 | <monochrom> | If the mass would join Haskell, it would not mean they join Haskell's way, it would mean Haskell join their way. |
| 17:48:29 | <tomsmeding> | siers: seems to work for me! https://paste.tomsmeding.com/3OU31Hii |
| 17:48:51 | <maerwald> | Many seem obsessed with the idea of broadening adoption of haskell in industry. Sure, more jobs to pick. |
| 17:48:57 | <maerwald> | But... |
| 17:49:17 | <maerwald> | Maybe we never should have... what happened to the language meanwhile? |
| 17:49:22 | <Lycurgus> | hs has cachet where it should in academe |
| 17:49:41 | <Lycurgus> | in industry it's analogous to smalltalk in the 90s |
| 17:49:47 | <Lycurgus> | big in finance |
| 17:49:51 | <lechner> | that's ocaml |
| 17:49:58 | <Lycurgus> | biggy little |
| 17:50:01 | <lechner> | -- in academe |
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| 17:50:40 | <Lycurgus> | i see way more haskell than ocaml in academic projects |
| 17:51:12 | <Lycurgus> | if it wasn't for coq ... . |
| 17:51:19 | ← | chreekat[m] parts (~bchreekat@2001:470:69fc:105::16b5) () |
| 17:51:55 | <lechner> | how about the proportion academic/commercial? |
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| 17:52:18 | <Lycurgus> | oh for ocaml yeah maybe |
| 17:53:17 | <Lycurgus> | also if there were glyphs between proportion and academic they didn make to my client |
| 17:54:16 | <Lycurgus> | *make it |
| 17:54:22 | <lechner> | i use a lot of spaces to separate symbols from text |
| 17:54:23 | <monochrom> | I met SML before Haskell. I then ditched SML for Haskell because "IO Int" is better than "() -> Int". |
| 17:54:27 | <Lycurgus> | ah |
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| 17:56:16 | <monochrom> | John Hughes lazy-list argument also helped. |
| 17:56:42 | <monochrom> | And if you think about it, those two points must come hand-in-hand, you can't separate them. |
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| 17:59:19 | <tomsmeding> | you could have a strict language with sensible IO Int, right? |
| 17:59:23 | <tomsmeding> | IO doesn't use laziness |
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| 18:00:20 | <monochrom> | You would also find yourself not needing the IO special type. |
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| 18:01:42 | <monochrom> | Laziness drives drawing a thick line between pure FP and I/O, because lazy I/O would be madness, you want laziness to be confined to the pure FP sublanguage. |
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| 18:02:44 | <monochrom> | And wanting a pure FP sublanguage drives wanting laziness, because eager pure FP loses a lot of efficient algorithms, but you can regain some alternative efficient algorithms from laziness. |
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| 18:03:21 | <lechner> | i get that lazy output is crazy, but why lazy input too? |
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| 18:04:19 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: right, you indirectly want laziness because pure FP is less powerful without that? |
| 18:04:29 | <tomsmeding> | didn't think about that, but makes sense I guess |
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| 18:05:05 | <monochrom> | main = do { putStrLn "please enter the 1st string"; s1 <- getLine; putStrLn "please enter the 2nd string"; s2 <- getLine; putStrLn ("your 2nd string is " ++ s2); putStrLn ("your 1st string is " ++ s1) } |
| 18:05:30 | <monochrom> | Describe its order of reading input under lazy input. |
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| 18:06:06 | <monochrom> | In fact, you can s/getLine/unsafeInterleaveIO getLine/ to actually try it on a real computer. |
| 18:06:47 | <glguy> | unsafeInterleaveIO getLine won't be as dramatically lazy as something that was per-character lazy |
| 18:06:52 | <lechner> | maybe lazy does not mean what i thought |
| 18:06:55 | <glguy> | so you won't get the full confusing experience |
| 18:07:30 | <monochrom> | Well yeah I'm too lazy to come up with a character-level example. |
| 18:07:46 | <lechner> | how can something be evaluated before a character arrives? |
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| 18:08:35 | <lechner> | that's the wrong way of looking at it |
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| 18:08:42 | <monochrom> | Oh lazy evaluation has never meant anything that anyone intuitively thought. |
| 18:09:13 | <monochrom> | It's why everyone doesn't understand lazy evaluation. |
| 18:09:43 | <monochrom> | Even within just the super-nice pure FP sublanguage. |
| 18:10:06 | KeziahMason | is now known as mnrmnaugh |
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| 18:16:24 | <lechner> | Hi, is this the right way to clean cabal's old build artifacts? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cabal-clean |
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| 18:17:54 | <lechner> | my CABAL_DIR is 14 G |
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| 18:20:08 | <[exa]> | rm -fr |
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| 18:21:41 | <eggplantade> | remove (for real) |
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| 18:23:56 | <lechner> | okay, thanks for confirming! |
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| 18:24:26 | <lechner> | unsaid: i came to that conclusion too |
| 18:25:04 | <[exa]> | I'm doing that pretty much regularly |
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| 18:25:28 | <[exa]> | you usually pay some recompilation time for it, but whatevs. |
| 18:26:00 | <lechner> | just 'store' ? |
| 18:26:35 | <kuribas> | oh, overloaded labels are pretty nice! I am replacing "getField @"act_from" site" with "view #act_from site" |
| 18:27:03 | <kuribas> | looks much cleaner |
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| 18:29:21 | <cryptogainz> | hey guys! |
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| 18:31:14 | <kuribas> | records are really nice with generic-lens + overloaded labels + duplicate record fields + named field puns + record wild cards |
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| 18:34:15 | <kuribas> | and a little library I wrote to get record subsets, and generic mapping over fields: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/record-operations |
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| 18:49:35 | <cryptogainz> | Anyone here looking to Cardano (Plutus) development? |
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| 19:00:40 | <carbolymer> | is turtle... unintuitive? I mean, I don't know yet if it's learning curve, or everything is harder to do in turtle than bash :S |
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| 19:00:51 | <[exa]> | by turtle you mean logo? |
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| 19:01:35 | <monochrom> | No, turtle does unix shell things but in Haskell. |
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| 19:01:54 | <carbolymer> | what monochrom said |
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| 19:02:09 | [exa] | opens the website |
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| 19:02:50 | <monochrom> | I still haven't used shelly or turtle because I took a very brief look (could be unfair) and thought "thanks, I'll go back to bash". |
| 19:04:03 | <Lycurgus> | zsh want's to be bash these days |
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| 19:04:35 | <[exa]> | is it just a bunch of shell-like IO functions? |
| 19:04:47 | <Lycurgus> | i use it but by running it from bash mostly |
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| 19:05:59 | <Lycurgus> | HsSHellScript is what I seem to have selected |
| 19:06:41 | <carbolymer> | [exa]: yeah, mostly |
| 19:06:50 | <[exa]> | carbolymer: it's got no | pipe or I/O < redirections? |
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| 19:08:06 | <[exa]> | oh my |
| 19:08:16 | <carbolymer> | monochrom: more or less what I think, but then suddenly I find myself doing loops, arrays and default values in bash and I wonder "why am I doing this to myself" |
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| 19:09:06 | <[exa]> | loops in bash are m'kay if you do them with `while read` or so |
| 19:09:39 | <carbolymer> | 'while read' = a language without proper loops so let's agree on using those hacks |
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| 19:10:58 | <[exa]> | how's that not a proper loop? it loops here :D |
| 19:11:24 | <carbolymer> | Lycurgus: and how do you like it? at first glance it seems to have similar amount of boilerplate comparing to turtle |
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| 19:12:20 | <Lycurgus> | carbolymer, not really used yet, just selected prima facie by it's looks compared to the others |
| 19:12:34 | <fresheyeball> | does anyone know where hls keeps sqlite? |
| 19:12:44 | <fresheyeball> | I think if I can delete it's sqlite it will start working again |
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| 19:12:51 | <Lycurgus> | i need a shell thing for hs, lisp and prolog and it's the hs choice |
| 19:12:55 | <fresheyeball> | haskell-language-server-8.6.5: SQLite3 returned ErrorIO while attempting to perform step: disk I/O error |
| 19:13:47 | <[exa]> | fresheyeball: o man, perhaps check `dmesg` |
| 19:14:15 | <fresheyeball> | [exa]:I don't understand |
| 19:14:18 | <fresheyeball> | what is dmesg |
| 19:15:19 | <[exa]> | sounds like your disk may be slightly failing, checking the kernel log is usually the way to see if it's really disk or something less fatal |
| 19:16:08 | <fresheyeball> | I don't think so |
| 19:16:13 | <fresheyeball> | I think the sqlite is corrupted |
| 19:16:31 | <fresheyeball> | This is a brand new NVMe and has no other indictation of problems |
| 19:16:38 | <joeyh> | I have seen sqlite fail with that exact message on some filesystems due to problems with locking |
| 19:17:07 | <fresheyeball> | question is, how to get hls to clean up after itself |
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| 19:19:03 | <cryptogainz> | Sooo, no one here interested in Cardano/Plutus? |
| 19:19:23 | <fresheyeball> | cryptogainz: how can I help you? |
| 19:20:04 | <fresheyeball> | my company writes plutus |
| 19:20:14 | <fresheyeball> | or writes IN plutus |
| 19:20:55 | × | urdh quits (~urdh@user/urdh) (Quit: Boom!) |
| 19:20:57 | <cryptogainz> | Well I'm struggling to understand some Cardano/Plutus notions. Are you familiar with the blockchain itself? |
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| 19:21:55 | <[exa]> | cryptogainz: don't ask to ask, just ask |
| 19:22:18 | <[exa]> | cryptogainz: at worst the question won't be on topic and we'll send you to offtopic channel. |
| 19:22:41 | <jacks2> | kuribas, do you know about upcoming RecordDotSyntax extension? |
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| 19:23:17 | <kuribas> | jack2: not much... |
| 19:24:06 | <kuribas> | jack2: looks neat, from what I have seen. But I'll wait until it is in a stable ghc version. |
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| 19:24:21 | <cryptogainz> | Well, it's a long question so here it goes. Cardano tokens live natively on the blockchain. Unlike Solidity tokens which are being minted through a smart contract (which includes gimmicks like taxes per tx, etc.) Cardano tokens are pure tokens. After that, you need Plutus smart contracts (or scripts as they call them) to make the tokens "gimmicky". My question is actually, how would that work in practice? I mint a token, I |
| 19:24:21 | <cryptogainz> | wrote a Plutus script and then what? I send the token to the smart contract address (if there even is such a thing)? Maybe this is offtopic but I don't know who to ask if not Plutus/Haskell devs |
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| 19:25:43 | <[exa]> | ok it's slightly offtopic :] |
| 19:25:47 | <fresheyeball> | cryptogainz: so you can mint tokens |
| 19:26:14 | <fresheyeball> | they don't need to be related to ADA specifically |
| 19:26:18 | <fresheyeball> | you can shitcoin |
| 19:26:30 | <fresheyeball> | keep in mind, you can have arbitrary state |
| 19:26:37 | <fresheyeball> | that state could be a second ledger |
| 19:27:21 | <[exa]> | and I'm totally lost in bitcoin jargon it seems |
| 19:27:37 | <jacks2> | kuribas, it will ship with the next stable version |
| 19:27:40 | <cryptogainz> | How do you mean they don't need to be related to ADA specifically? |
| 19:28:05 | <cryptogainz> | Hahaha exa, yea, it's hard to keep up with everything |
| 19:30:50 | <sm> | cryptogainz: sounds like you got luck and found an expert, but also there's the free plutus training materials |
| 19:31:29 | <cryptogainz> | Well, I tried the first 3 "lectures" but unfortunately this wasn't explained at all so I was hoping someone here knew the answer before I went through 12-13 extra hours of lectures |
| 19:31:35 | <jacks2> | kuribas, I don't know how to post links to reddit posts [share link doesn't work], so here's a copy/pasted example. some are not thrilled with this extension, but personally, I can't wait for it. https://pastebin.com/47siAfMk |
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| 19:33:28 | <sm> | I hear that |
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| 19:35:29 | <kuribas> | jacks2: not polluting the namespace with accessor functions will be great. |
| 19:37:55 | <jacks2> | yes |
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| 20:42:00 | <jumper149> | Is there a nice way to have multiline strings with GHC? Maybe some TH library? |
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| 20:43:18 | <dminuoso> | QQs are your best bet |
| 20:43:23 | <geekosaur> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/here-1.2.13/docs/Data-String-Here-Uninterpolated.html |
| 20:44:09 | <dminuoso> | I use raw-strings-qq because its so minimalistic. |
| 20:44:43 | <dminuoso> | (I need basic interpolation and nothing more) |
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| 20:46:12 | <maerwald> | jumper149: string-interpolate |
| 20:47:13 | <maerwald> | https://gitlab.com/williamyaoh/string-interpolate/-/tree/master#features |
| 20:47:36 | <maerwald> | clearly, someone obsessed over it |
| 20:48:15 | <maerwald> | quasiquotes are also a great way to kill tooling |
| 20:48:24 | <maerwald> | (hls, hasktags, stylish-haskell, ...) |
| 20:48:34 | <jumper149> | maerwald: Yeah, I also fear that ^^ |
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| 20:49:19 | <jumper149> | I think I like raw-strings-qq best, but I'm still not too sure :( |
| 20:49:48 | <jumper149> | I want nix-style strings! :p |
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| 20:51:26 | <tomsmeding> | jumper149: also "hi this\ \is a\ \multiline string" |
| 20:51:37 | <tomsmeding> | read newlines in place of the spaces |
| 20:51:49 | <tomsmeding> | that's plain Haskell2010 syntax and doesn't need anything fancy at all |
| 20:52:03 | <tomsmeding> | decide first that you don't want that before going to fancy templatehaskell alternatives :p |
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| 20:53:59 | <tomsmeding> | also consider: unlines ["this is", "a multiline", "string"], which inserts the newlines automatically |
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| 20:54:11 | <tomsmeding> | but has the downside (?) of also inserting a newline at the end |
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| 20:55:24 | <jumper149> | Actually the backslash option is quite nice. Very readable because of the adjustable indentation, it just needs a manual \n for actual line breaks. |
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| 20:56:28 | <jumper149> | tomsmeding: And it also works easily with OverloadedStrings. |
| 20:57:07 | <__monty__> | Doesn't have great editor support though. |
| 20:59:02 | <jumper149> | __monty__: Compared to all the other options it seems to be the easiest on editors. Ctrl-v comes in handy with vim. |
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| 20:59:15 | <siers> | tomsmeding, omg, you actually managed to write an example? 😅 I'll try reading it, but I think I have to read a bit about GADTs first. Night night. |
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| 21:27:58 | <aegon> | i'm missing somethign about optparse-applicative. it seems to fail to parse a string |
| 21:28:04 | <aegon> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/aEDPP0mV |
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| 21:33:00 | <aegon> | i guess auto doesn't work for string positional args |
| 21:33:09 | <aegon> | switched over to strOption and things seem good |
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| 21:43:50 | <amesgen[m]> | jumper149: Note that backslashes don't work when CPP is enabled. |
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