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Logs on 2021-08-26 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:27:44 <lbseale> I am trying to use `setEnv` in System.Enviornment, but it is not setting my environment variable, anyone have thoughts about this?
00:28:28 <geekosaur> how are you checking this?
00:28:58 <lbseale> setting the variable to something, running my executable, then running `env`
00:29:17 <geekosaur> that won't work; environments only propagate downward
00:29:27 <monochrom> Ugh you know that a child's env vars are not "backported" to the parent, right?
00:29:36 <lbseale> I know now!
00:29:40 <geekosaur> your executable and any child processes will see it, the parent won't
00:29:55 <lbseale> ok, so this will not work, is there a way to do what I want?
00:30:27 <lbseale> I suppose write some bash script
00:30:55 <monochrom> It is very unclear what you want.
00:31:09 <monochrom> If you are in a shell, you already know the appropriate shell command for this.
00:31:30 <monochrom> If you are in a Haskell/C/Python program, you already know the appropriate library function to call.
00:31:50 <nshepperd> you want your program to set some environment variables in the parent shell? ssh-agent does this by outputting the commands to set the variables on stdout
00:31:53 <monochrom> So, what else is left?
00:32:08 <lbseale> monochrom: what nshepperd said
00:32:18 <nshepperd> and then you eval the commands in your shell
00:32:38 <nshepperd> like 'eval $(ssh-agent -s)'
00:33:29 <lbseale> understood, so I need to write a script that will use the output of my Haskell program to set the environment variable
00:34:49 <monochrom> You also know that unless you run, in the shell that you want to affect, "source that_script" or ". that_script", you would be back to the scenerio of "why can't child change parent's env", right?
00:34:49 <nshepperd> it should be a bash function
00:35:15 <nshepperd> or invoking 'source' yeah
00:35:28 <nshepperd> which runs the commands directly in the parent shell
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00:36:23 <monochrom> I made exam questions like this for my unix course.
00:37:20 <monochrom> "Q2: John wants to edit PATH programmtically. Part (a): John makes it a shell script and run "./myscript", why no workie?"
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00:37:49 <monochrom> "Part (b): Make it a shell function."
00:38:26 <lbseale> hmm, I don't know the difference between a shell script and a shell function
00:39:08 <monochrom> Do you know the difference between doing a fork-exec and not doing even a fork?
00:40:07 <lbseale> I think I do, tell me if I'm wrong: fork exec runs something in a child process, and ... not fork doesn't create any process
00:40:34 <monochrom> If my command is "./myscript", does it do fork-exec?
00:40:52 <lbseale> I don't think so
00:41:06 <monochrom> Do you know how to test your hypothesis?
00:41:21 <lbseale> no
00:41:45 <monochrom> Do you know how the shell command for printing itself's process ID?
00:41:56 <monochrom> or s/the/a/
00:42:49 <lbseale> SE tells me it's `echo $$`
00:43:01 <monochrom> Do you know how to test your hypothesis now?
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00:44:10 <lbseale> write a script that runs that and see if it's the same as if I just run it in the shell?
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00:44:20 <monochrom> Yes.
00:44:46 <lbseale> ok, did the test, it's not the same
00:44:59 <lbseale> so we have learned that `./myscript` does a fork-exec
00:45:18 <lbseale> and that any changes done to the environment in the script will not propagate up to the shell in which it was called
00:47:47 <lbseale> ... and `source myscript` does _not_ do a fork-exec
00:49:48 <lbseale> I supposed `.` is a synonym for `source`
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00:50:24 <geekosaur> yes, 'source' is actually a bash-ism, '.' is the old name
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00:50:39 <lbseale> nice!
00:51:06 <geekosaur> in particular '.' is POSIX and 'source' isn't
00:51:17 <monochrom> shell function has the advantage of syntactically looking like yet another command.
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00:57:19 <lbseale> I have to go now, thanks for the help!
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01:00:30 <hololeap> is there a foldMap for semigroups and non-empty lists?
01:01:08 <Axman6> @hoogle Semigroup m => (a -> m) -> t a -> m
01:01:09 <lambdabot> Data.Semigroup.Foldable foldMap1 :: (Foldable1 t, Semigroup m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m
01:01:09 <lambdabot> Data.Semigroup.Foldable.Class foldMap1 :: (Foldable1 t, Semigroup m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m
01:01:09 <lambdabot> Rebase.Prelude foldMap1 :: (Foldable1 t, Semigroup m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m
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01:04:37 <hololeap> hm, Foldable1, good call
01:06:59 <hololeap> semigroupoids... semigroups... IN SPACE!
01:08:38 Axman6 wonders what a hemi-demi-semigroup would look like
01:09:45 <c_wraith> like a group, but with shoulders and arms.
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02:54:43 <jakefromstatefar> <command line>: cannot satisfy -package-id json-0.10-...: json-0.10... is unusable due to missing dependencies: parsec-3.1.14.0 syb-0.7.2.1... text-1.2.4.1
02:54:46 <jakefromstatefar> How do I fix this?
02:55:06 <jakefromstatefar> I tried to unregister `json` via ghc-pkg, but that didn't work!
02:55:21 <jakefromstatefar> json wasn't registered there!
02:57:15 <jakefromstatefar> I was interfacing with Text.JSON, so I tried --force unregistering `text`, then reinstalling it, ghc-pkg still shows the packages depending on it as red
02:57:19 <jakefromstatefar> what do I do?
02:57:41 <jakefromstatefar> I have both stack and cabal, with a nix-interface to stack.
03:00:37 <dsal> jakefromstatefar: Generally, you just define your requirements in your project and let the tool do the work (for whatever value of "the tool" there)
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03:17:53 <Axman6> jakefromstatefar: is using the jason package your choice? Aeson as definitely the most common choice these days. I've never even heard of the json package until today
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03:18:29 <Axman6> (That's not saying aeson is the best json library, there are others which have some nice features, but it is definitely the de facto standard json library these days
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03:19:22 <jmcantrell> Hello, I'm trying to compile a project. The readme just says to run `cabal install` in the project directory. I get lots of errors about missing modules. Should it not download dependencies?
03:20:04 <Axman6> might need cabal configure first - and I would probably recommend using the new-configure and new-install instead
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03:20:37 <c_wraith> That sounds like you have an old version of cabal installed
03:20:57 <Axman6> jmcantrell: if you can link us to the project we might be able to help more
03:21:01 <jmcantrell> cabal-install version 3.2.0.0
03:21:14 <jmcantrell> https://github.com/koalaman/shellcheck
03:21:51 <jmcantrell> new-configure and new-install had the same result
03:22:05 <Axman6> personally I would justdo you know you need to build it from git? Personally I would just run cabal install ShellCheck outside of the project directory
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03:22:23 <Axman6> you might also need to run cabal update if you haven't downloaded package definitions before
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03:22:38 <jmcantrell> i need to test the latest commit
03:22:43 <Axman6> ah ok
03:23:04 <Axman6> can you paste all theoutput you get when you run cabal new-configure and cabal new-install?
03:23:05 <jmcantrell> cabal install after update gave the same result
03:23:11 <jmcantrell> sure
03:23:16 <Axman6> @where paste
03:23:16 <lambdabot> Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
03:24:45 <jmcantrell> https://paste.rs/PIz
03:28:38 <Axman6> koala_man: ^ might be relevant to you if you're around
03:30:00 <koala_man> huh. Which distro is this?
03:30:26 <jmcantrell> arch
03:30:36 <Axman6> a cabal new-configure and cabal new-build seems to be working fine for me, on macOS with ghc 8.10.6
03:30:48 <koala_man> jmcantrell: could you move/remove ~/.ghc and ~/.cabal and try again?
03:32:01 <jmcantrell> there was no ~/.ghc, but ig get the same result after removing ~/.cabal
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03:32:58 <Axman6> and if you run cabal update?
03:33:59 <jmcantrell> ah, i forgot that. one sec
03:34:29 <jmcantrell> same result
03:34:50 <Axman6> how did you install ghc?
03:36:18 <jmcantrell> i think it was installed as a dependency of another package, but through pacman
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03:37:24 <sm> chiming in late here, but "There are files missing in the ... package" generally means your package db is broken somehow. Maybe disk filled up at some point, or you cleaned up over zealously ?
03:37:25 <koala_man> huh, I also get errors trying to build it in archlinux docker
03:37:27 <Axman6> Why is Arch always so problematic when it comes to Haskell stuff -_- they broke everything a few years ago and I have no idea what the right way to do things anymore is
03:37:52 <c_wraith> the right way to do haskell on arch is use ghcup and ignore their packages
03:38:18 <jmcantrell> i definitely haven't touched anything related to haskell previous to this
03:39:07 <Axman6> yeah ghcup is generally just good advice these days. it's made my life so much easier
03:40:01 <jmcantrell> installing now...
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03:42:24 <lazlo> test
03:42:30 <koala_man> test confirmed
03:42:36 <Axman6> Fail
03:42:52 <lazlo> it's my first time using irc don't mind me being stupid
03:43:12 <Axman6> Well welcome - Can we help you with any Haskell related issues?
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03:45:25 <lazlo> I'd like to know where relevant Haskell news may be gotten from, I recently read about https://haskell.love/schedule.html and it got me pumped to try and learn it again
03:45:26 <monochrom> Axman6: archlinux discarded static libraries and neglected to reconfigure GHC to default to dynamic linking.
03:45:30 <monochrom> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Haskell#Problems_with_linking
03:46:10 <Axman6> lazlo: the haskell subreddit is usually a good place to start
03:46:46 <monochrom> Ah, also koala_man too.
03:49:07 <jmcantrell> ok, it's building after installing ghcup
03:49:25 <Axman6> sounds like a broken GHC install in that case - good to hear
03:51:04 <jmcantrell> broken due to the arch problem that monochrom mentioned?
03:51:18 <monochrom> If you're on arch then yeah.
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03:52:04 <monochrom> I have a few students once in a while who behave like the arch people.
03:52:16 <monochrom> They had code that worked perfectly.
03:52:36 <monochrom> They decided to do a last-minute finishing touch of changing indentation.
03:52:36 <koala_man> monochrom: with that cabal config I get "newParallelJobControl: not a sensible number of jobs: 0"
03:52:48 <monochrom> They decided not to do a last-minute test.
03:53:20 <Axman6> classic
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03:54:49 <Axman6> Reminds me of the story of the C group project where they were a) not using version control, and b) one of the members decided they didn't need all the *'s in the project to removed them the night before it was due... not where I heard that story, but it wounded like anightmare
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03:59:50 <jmcantrell> is there a distro that handles this correctly?
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04:01:29 <monochrom> Does nix count as a distro? ("is this a distro?" meme)
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04:01:52 <monochrom> Really each distro has its own religion that breaks something.
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04:01:59 <hololeap> jmcantrell: gentoo perhaps, if you can deal with the (re)compiles. that's what I use.
04:02:12 <monochrom> Most distros split GHC into multiple packages so you are always missing a component.
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04:03:47 <hololeap> what would be a good way to avoid the `case` here? http://sprunge.us/vElQfa
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04:04:37 <hololeap> (this is using megaparsec)
04:04:45 <jmcantrell> ah ok
04:05:14 <monochrom> Some distro's addition religion is "old means stable" so they ship you version 7.
04:05:16 <lazlo> name++ Axman6
04:05:28 <monochrom> s/addition/additional/
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04:07:32 <hololeap> I could use Data.List.NonEmpty.fromList, but is there a way to parse directly to a NonEmpty?
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04:08:01 <dibblego> some1
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04:09:01 <dibblego> @type Data.List.NonEmpty.some1
04:09:02 <lambdabot> Alternative f => f a -> f (NonEmpty a)
04:09:15 <hololeap> oh, word
04:09:27 <hololeap> I also just found Control.Applicative.Combinators.NonEmpty in parser-combinators
04:10:36 <hololeap> good to know that some1 exists, though. I've never seen that before
04:10:38 <koala_man> jmcantrell: if nothing else, I'm able to build shellcheck on Arch with 'cabal install' when I take the original ~/.cabal/config, and uncomment and set the 5 options as described on https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Haskell under "Configuring Cabal for dynamic linking"
04:10:59 <koala_man> dibblego!!
04:11:09 <dibblego> also this: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/separated-0.3.2.1/docs/Data-Separated.html#v:separatedBy
04:11:19 <dibblego> omfg no way it's koala_man!!!!
04:11:24 <koala_man> it is!
04:11:35 <jmcantrell> koala_man: oh, nice. thanks
04:13:13 <hololeap> dibblego: wouldn't it be separatedBy1?
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04:13:35 <dibblego> because it keeps the thing that is separating
04:13:53 <dibblego> there is also separatedBy1
04:14:12 <hololeap> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/separated-0.3.2.1/docs/Data-Separated.html#v:separatedBy1
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04:24:29 <jmcantrell> koala_man: looks like the bug i was looking at has already been fixed on master
04:24:42 <jmcantrell> for shellcheck
04:25:35 <koala_man> yay!
04:25:48 <koala_man> I should probably have mentioned: shellcheck.net lets you run scripts against master without having to mess with haskell tooling
04:26:59 <jmcantrell> yeah, and it worked there. i guess i just wanted to be extra sure
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04:45:10 <flux> can someone explain why people care about cartesian closed categories in the context of haskell so much?
04:45:22 <flux> like i understand the definition, just have no idea why it's significant
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04:54:27 <monochrom> It is the minimum for supporting function application.
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04:56:21 <Axman6> Watch Conal Elliot's talk on Compiling to Categories to understand why
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05:02:20 <flux> i've tried to understand it so many times
05:02:21 <flux> but failed
05:03:07 <flux> i don't have a good category theory foundation sadly
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05:07:00 <Axman6> I don't think you really need much category theory understanding to understand why that talk/paper is important though
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05:07:20 <flux> hmm maybe i should try again
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08:25:11 <kuribas> is it possible to generate stack configuration from a cabal file?
08:25:18 <kuribas> With same version bounds etc...?
08:25:59 <kuribas> For example, what if you use some stack based plugin (i.e. intellij) to edit a cabal only package?
08:26:08 <kuribas> You're simply out of luck?
08:26:19 <sm> stack init
08:27:23 <sclv> stack works with cabal files fine
08:27:41 <sclv> it just needs an additional file as well
08:28:08 <sclv> you don’t need to replace your cabal file with hpack yaml to use stack
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08:31:34 <merijn> In fact, you shouldn't do that unless you hate collaborating :p
08:32:11 <Axman6> yeah please don't use hpack :( I understand what they were going for, but cabal is the way to go
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08:36:31 <sm> please don't discourage folks from using package.yaml if they want. It can be helpful, and there's no conflict with cabal users
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08:37:27 <merijn> "It can be helpful" <- agree to disagree :p
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08:39:22 <sm> sm: it lets you generate cabal files from a simpler and less redundant format, saving some work and for certain projects, removing a big source of errors (forgetting to mirror changes in all components, forgetting to declare new files, etc.)
08:40:19 <sm> and if you want to collaborate with non-stack users you should also commit the cabal file, obviously
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08:40:46 <sclv> the format is no longer less redundant
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08:40:55 <sclv> cabal also has common stanzas
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08:41:42 <sm> sm: yes, that's true nowadays, if you can require your builders to have a new-enough cabal-install
08:41:56 <sm> sclv didn't we have this chat a few days ago :)
08:42:39 <sclv> yes thats why I’m reminding you, you need to update your jingle :-)
08:43:49 <sm> sclv, I would say a less redundant format is still fair
08:44:21 <sm> to yaml fans at least. They can reuse what they know.
08:44:21 <sclv> ok why
08:44:55 <sclv> thats not less redundant. thats just different. and “more familiar to yaml users”
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08:45:45 <sm> those folks don't have to learn the special .cabal format, so for them it's "redundant". I'm not calling it that, just defending my sincere attempt to summarise, which you call a jingle :)
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08:46:49 <maerwald[m]> We may soon have cabal as toml format
08:46:58 <Axman6> :o
08:46:59 <maerwald[m]> Then we don't need these discussions anymore
08:47:10 <Las[m]> link?
08:47:38 <sm> is this the build-hpack-into-cabal idea ?
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08:47:53 <maerwald[m]> https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/7548
08:47:57 <sm> ..but better, so we don't have to admit we did that.. ? :)
08:48:08 <sclv> redundant used to mean it literally reduced redundancy. it doesn’t anymore. i think using that word is now more confusing than not for what you’re describing
08:48:11 <maerwald[m]> Hpack is irrelevant
08:48:26 <maerwald[m]> Redundant, so to speak
08:49:30 <merijn> sm: Hard disagree that "yaml" is simpler. Especially since it's an "undocumented, incomplete, partial schema that doesn't support all cabal features"
08:49:55 <sm> sclv: ok. I see your point, it's hard to get everything across in an IRC conversation. I acknowledged that you rightly point out cabal has a similar feature now, just not quite so reliably available (user must have cabal-install >=X)
08:50:17 <sm> I'm no yaml defender, I'll exit this topic now
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08:51:01 <maerwald[m]> Tbf, anything is better than a fully custom format
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08:51:46 <maerwald[m]> E.g.: parsing stack resolvers just requires you to depend on a yaml lib
08:51:52 <merijn> sm: FWIW, common stanzas were added in 2.2, which means it's available on any machine that has a cabal-install less than 4 years old
08:51:55 <maerwald[m]> Parsing cabal stuff, good luck
08:52:08 <merijn> maerwald[m]: That's ingenous
08:52:28 <merijn> maerwald[m]: It requires you depend on a yaml lib *and* a custom rolled parser on top of that
08:52:41 <merijn> since yaml just gives you dictionaries without any schema
08:52:43 <tdammers> sm: that's not the commonly understood meaning of "redundant". "Redundant" here means that the same information is replicated multiple times in the configuration - whether you base a configuration file format on YAML or make it custom has nothing to do with that
08:52:49 <maerwald[m]> Which is dead simple
08:53:15 <merijn> maerwald[m]: Only if the input schema is trivial
08:53:34 <tdammers> I do think that making cabal a custom format was a mistake. But I also think YAML isn't the best choice.
08:53:52 <merijn> I think YAML is one of the worst possible choices :p
08:54:01 <merijn> Clearly we should just use Dhall :p
08:54:08 <tdammers> from an ergonomics perspective, YAML is better than XML
08:54:15 <Hecate> tdammers: you'll be happy to know that there is effort to go towards a better format, like TOML
08:54:19 <sclv> cabal format predates yaml and toml afaik, and also predates widespread json
08:54:45 <Hecate> sclv: yeah I think JSON only widely appeared with more JS in the browser
08:54:46 <sclv> at the time, the “standard” would have been, at best, xml
08:54:52 <Hecate> haha yeah
08:54:55 <tdammers> JSON is even worse than YAML in many ways. TOML seems like a viable candidate.
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08:55:08 <Hecate> tdammers: TOML is definitely viewed as a better candidate
08:55:20 <sclv> be very thankful that a custom format was picked over xml, lol!
08:55:27 Hecate is thankful
08:55:56 <merijn> Hecate: Not convinced TOML atm, but I'm not too familiar with the details
08:55:57 <Hecate> Now it is time we give the Cabal format a honorable discharge, for services rendered to the Nation
08:56:03 <tdammers> OTOH, an XML-based format with a well-defined schema would make it much easier to migrate to a different representation
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08:56:10 <Hecate> merijn: the details of your doubt or of the language?
08:56:20 <merijn> Hecate: of TOML
08:56:29 <[exa]> oh please guys don't XML :D
08:56:46 <Hecate> [exa]: nobody is thinking of this lol
08:56:50 <merijn> XML would incur the Wrath of Wadler :p
08:57:08 <tdammers> don't worry, nobody in their right minds would consider XML as a human-editable configuration format in 2021
08:57:16 tdammers sobs
08:57:19 <Hecate> merijn: the Spec is quite readable! :)
08:57:29 <merijn> @quote Wadler XML
08:57:29 <lambdabot> Wadler says: So, the essence of XML is this: the problem it solves is not hard, and it does not solve the problem well.
08:57:31 <sclv> “an xml format with a well-defined schema” is almost as good a punchline as “the aristocrats!”
08:57:34 <maerwald[m]> Why have a file format at all? Just move a sqlite file around
08:57:40 <merijn> maerwald[m]: Yes!
08:57:45 <merijn> maerwald[m]: Did you hear the amazing news?
08:57:45 <maerwald[m]> Lol
08:57:51 <[exa]> good I'm happy now
08:58:09 <merijn> maerwald[m]: Next release of SQLite will have (opt-in) strict typing/schemas!
08:58:18 <tdammers> we could also just settle on the worst possible candidate: Python pickles
08:58:48 <merijn> SQLite now officially "best software" in existence :>
08:58:52 <[exa]> tdammers: you need to add more visual basic to get the actual worst candidate
08:59:11 <sclv> i suggest using the sbt format (scala source coupled to a specific version of scala)
08:59:11 <tdammers> [exa]: easy, just put an implementation of VB in your pickles
08:59:24 <[exa]> oh dumb me, that's true
08:59:28 <tdammers> [exa]: because you can do that. pickles can serialize arbitrary python objects, code and all
08:59:40 <[exa]> wonderful
08:59:43 <merijn> maerwald[m]: https://www.sqlite.org/draft/stricttables.html
08:59:44 <tdammers> it's "hilarious"
08:59:50 <sclv> oh wait its worse. Coupled to a pair of a scala version and an sbt lib version
09:00:54 <tdammers> and then encode it into EBCDIC for good measure
09:02:03 <sclv> ooh, hear me out, hdf5!
09:02:33 <sclv> or the most standard standard, asn1!
09:03:11 <merijn> sclv: I'm going to assassinate you in plain sight and no judge will convict me
09:03:34 <banacorn> Hi, is it possible to split the compiling process into smaller stages? I'm compiling something on GitHub Actions but it keeps running out of memory :(
09:04:06 <sclv> im writing my next april fools post as we speak. Just gotta hire a contractor who understands asn.1 to write the schema
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09:04:14 <merijn> banacorn: hmm, Github actions has been fine for me so far. Or you by any chance using pandoc? :p
09:04:48 <merijn> sclv: Pretty sure that's against the Geneva convention
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09:06:11 <Las[m]> banacorn: Have you tried setting GHCRTS?
09:06:24 <banacorn> merijn: It's something worse, Agda '=D https://github.com/banacorn/agda-language-server/runs/3429332793?check_suite_focus=true#step:10:3866
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09:08:17 <banacorn> Las[m]: No, I haven't! Thanks, I'll try this!
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09:09:56 <sm> Las: what would that do ?
09:10:37 <Las[m]> sm: You can set flags for the GC, such as setting it to compact mode by default
09:10:46 <Las[m]> or setting a limit for how much memory to use
09:10:55 <sm> cool
09:11:02 <sm> banacorn: I would troubleshoot this locally, for sure
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09:12:09 <sm> Las: this seems like some standard advice we should give to the folks trying to build on <4G machines
09:12:15 <merijn> Las[m]: Compacting GC is the standard
09:13:00 <merijn> banacorn: Ensure parallel compiles are disabled, btw
09:13:05 <Las[m]> merijn: Last time I read the docs it said that it would only be enabled when half of the available memory is used IIRC
09:13:21 <banacorn> merijn: I see, thank you!
09:13:33 <merijn> The default GC of GHC is "copy & compact"
09:13:39 <merijn> So I wonder what docs you read that in
09:13:47 <sm> usually we tell them to add +RTS -M ... -RTS to ghc options, I guess that's similar to using GHCRTS
09:14:01 <merijn> sm: I mean, limiting the memory just means your program dies with an async exception, instead of OOM-killed
09:14:05 <merijn> sm: That's not super useful
09:15:07 <sm> merijn: my belief and IIRC experience is it encourages GHC to be more thrifty with memory, so compiles may succeed even if they run slower. I could be wrong.
09:15:26 <merijn> banacorn: Github Actions are fairly beefy, so I wouldn't expect GHC to blow up unless it's code that massively blows up locally. But accidentally running 2-4 GHCs instead of 1 is a good way to kill even the beefiest machines ;)
09:15:31 <Las[m]> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/runtime_control.html?highlight=c#rts-flag---copying-gc
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09:16:37 <banacorn> The same action on Linux and Mac machines are fine, but the Windows version keeps blowing up somehow
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09:17:04 <merijn> ah!
09:17:07 <merijn> Clear solution
09:17:11 <merijn> Blame windows :D
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09:18:41 <banacorn> ;D
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10:07:46 <maerwald[m]> Speaking of windows, I'm still looking for a way to link to certain mingw libs statically
10:09:19 <kuribas> sclv: but the stack and cabal will use different dependency versions right?
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10:17:56 <Gurkenglas> Would lenses/optics be easier to understand if we sold them to the newbie exactly as "something that turns a small action into a big action"? Ideally a lens error on "x . to head .= 3" would look like "`.=` produced `SettingAction` which `to head` cannot process."
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10:24:44 <dminuoso> I dont even understand what that means, and I consider myself an advanced user.
10:25:25 <Gurkenglas> Damn it. What I mean by action, why that lens line doesn't work, or lenses in general?
10:26:13 <dminuoso> Gurkenglas: I think this is sort of the same problem behind the monad tutorial fallacy. Once you have some analogy/explanation/intuition built on from experience, it seems so obvious.
10:26:41 <dminuoso> But that analogy/explanation/intuition only makes sense for you, because of your own experiences with it.
10:27:00 <Gurkenglas> It seems to me like this is the one right perspective, though! I'd love to be proven wrong.
10:27:14 <dminuoso> Here's a list of things that are all true about lenses:
10:27:33 <dminuoso> - (VL style) lenses are coalgebras of the costate comonad
10:27:45 <dminuoso> - lenses/optics are first class, composable, accessors
10:28:10 <dminuoso> - lenses allow for easily manipulating nested data in a pure language
10:28:23 <Gurkenglas> I haven't investigated the first -, but I'm willing to bet I'll find it favors my interpretation :3
10:29:09 <Gurkenglas> What do you mean by first class? Composable is clear in my interpretation. What do you mean by accessor? Presumably setters and getters are kinds of accessors.
10:29:21 <dminuoso> If you want to investigate the first, which is just humor by the way, just remember that Costate is just an old name for Store.
10:29:41 <dminuoso> So consider something like C, where accessing a structs field is done by say `f.g`
10:29:50 <dminuoso> But we cannot pass around this `.g` as a first class value
10:30:19 <dminuoso> So the "path into some nested value(s)" is not a first class value in many languages
10:30:34 <dminuoso> The closest analogy to lens I found, is something like XPath or CSS selectors.
10:31:07 <dminuoso> But using that only makes sense if the reader is already familiar with say XPath
10:32:04 <dminuoso> Oh and here's another item to the list above, which I think is actually valuable in some sense:
10:32:33 <dminuoso> - lenses split an object into the focus, and the whole with a hole where the focus belonged.
10:32:44 <dminuoso> But that one is generally not useful for teaching lenses
10:32:58 <dminuoso> They are rather an intuition about how VL-style lenses work internally
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11:01:23 <kuribas> Gurkenglas: I find the definition in the Optics packages quite good: "An optic is a first-class, composable notion of substructure."
11:02:01 <kuribas> Gurkenglas: IMO to explain it, start eays, from a getter/setter for a field.
11:02:14 <Gurkenglas> eays?
11:02:18 <kuribas> easy :)
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11:03:19 <maerwald> not sure that's gonna help a newbie :p
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11:03:49 <kuribas> If you understand what a lens is for a field, then you can generalise it to traversals, and prisms.
11:04:37 <kuribas> A lens over a field is quite easy to understand. It's nothing more than a getter and setter.
11:05:09 <Gurkenglas> dminuoso, the third - has its place; it's the problem for which optics are the solution, whereas the "small action into big action" is the gear I would give the user to have any hope of understanding/debugging/coming up with lens lines
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11:10:08 <Gurkenglas> dminuoso, the fourth -, "Lens' s a: s <-> (a,_); Traversal' s a: s <-> ([a],_); Prism' s a: s <-> Either a _; ..." is an implementation lens could have had, but doesn't remotely! Although I suppose the connection is a neat one and maybe (,) and Either should be defined that way in the first place :)
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11:17:24 <Gurkenglas> kuribas, @optics: nice! The reason that they use % instead of . is that Haskell doesn't yet allow control of error messages for . like it does for newtypes, and the impredicative types embarassment, yes?
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11:22:25 <Gurkenglas> "Since Optic is a newtype, other libraries that wish to define optics must depend upon its definition." <- ...do we not have some way of saying "and here's a definition that can only be used if you also import the optics package."?
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11:25:25 <Gurkenglas> I suppose in the end the library can define s->a and s->b->t... or even, to be more on the nose, (((s->a) -> (s->b->t)) -> x) -> x :)
11:25:28 <kuribas> Gurkenglas: (.) only operates on functions, but an optic isn't a function.
11:25:45 <kuribas> Gurkenglas: or more general on Categories, but it isn't a Category either.
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11:26:27 <Gurkenglas> kuribas, yeah "reason they don't use ." is to be read as "reason they don't define optics as functions"
11:26:58 <kuribas> Gurkenglas: IMO "." is confusing and leaking abstractions.
11:27:17 <kuribas> because it is used the wrong way than what you would expect.
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11:28:19 <Gurkenglas> kuribas, I argue that the user should think of the other direction as the expected one! What implementation of what optic does not involve function composition?
11:29:23 <kuribas> Gurkenglas: I mean, it's leaking the abstraction, because the user shouldn't not think about the implementation.
11:30:02 <Gurkenglas> If every implementation is the same then I disagree.
11:31:05 <Gurkenglas> Hmm, except not every implementation is the same, as in Ctrl-F "fourth -".
11:31:31 <kuribas> There are already different means to implement optics.
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11:31:51 <Gurkenglas> Do errors from the optics package ever leak the abstraction?
11:31:58 <kuribas> No
11:34:06 <Gurkenglas> Here's an argument for making actions the newtypes instead of optics: It makes it so that instead of hardcoding in the subset relation as a class, we hardcode in the element relation as a class.
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11:36:10 <Gurkenglas> Then the kind that pops out when you compose needn't be hardcoded, instead you intersect the hardcoded sets.
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12:05:52 <kuribas> Gurkenglas: just compare the type if "view :: Control.Monad.Reader.Class.MonadReader s m => (a -> Const a a) -> s -> Const a s" vs "view :: view :: Is k A_Getter => Optic' k is s a -> s -> a"
12:06:11 <kuribas> Gurkenglas: This MonadReader and Const stuff should not be relevant if you just want to *use* lenses.
12:06:42 <kuribas> Gurkenglas: However, it *is* relevant to know that view works with any Optic that is a A_Getter.
12:07:13 <kuribas> Gurkenglas: which means a subtyping relationship implemented using a typeclass.
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12:09:35 <kuribas> Gurkenglas: in other words, the interface of Optic contains the necessary information about how to use it, but not more than needed.
12:10:35 <Gurkenglas> I agree that Const and MonadReader shouldn't be exposed. My suggestion is to turn "(%) :: JoinKinds k l m => Optic k s u -> Optic l u a -> Optic m s a" into "(.) :: Action k, Action l, Action m => (l u -> m s) -> (k a -> l u) -> (k a -> m s)".
12:11:21 <Gurkenglas> Although I suppose Action needn't even be a class there
12:11:30 <Gurkenglas> so in the end (.) is just fully general, uhhh how do I even say this
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12:14:44 <Gurkenglas> My suggestion is to turn "Optic A_Lens s a" into "Action m A_Lens => m a -> m s".
12:15:19 <Gurkenglas> (Could say "Action m Lens" there even, I think?)
12:15:45 <Gurkenglas> (probably not, if Lens is a type alias.)
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12:17:18 <kuribas> Gurkenglas: you are free to design your own lens abstraction, but it is not trivial...
12:17:28 <Gurkenglas> yeah maybe i should just write the library
12:17:47 <kuribas> Gurkenglas: you'll probably fail, and then see why Optics did it like that.
12:18:23 <kuribas> Gurkenglas: or end up like the lens library, with all its flaws.
12:19:14 <Gurkenglas> hmm i suppose A_Getter is just exactly GettingAction
12:19:46 <Gurkenglas> and every action is *identified* with the set of actions at most as powerful
12:19:59 <Gurkenglas> and then the subset relation *is* the element relation
12:20:10 <sszark> This example from 'learn you a haskell'. Can you do this without building every single combination, if you just want 1 random variant? https://pastebin.com/raw/5XVVt9Pn
12:21:08 <Taneb> sszark: if you have a way of taking a random element from a list, then either you can use it on the list of all combinations, or you can use it on each of the starting lists and combine them afterwards
12:21:54 <kuribas> Gurkenglas: it's easy to look at a small part and think "I can do this better". But you have to look at the whole picture.
12:21:59 <sszark> Yeah that makes sense. I have two lists with thousands of words. and it's really slow to build all combinations just to extract a single one.
12:22:03 <kuribas> IMO both Lens and Optics are amazing pieces of work.
12:22:45 <Gurkenglas> kuribas, to make it clear my last 3 lines are about optics as it is now :)
12:26:02 <Gurkenglas> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optics-core-0.4/docs/src/Optics.Internal.Optic.html#%25 <- AHA IT IS JUST (.)
12:27:12 <kuribas> Gurkenglas: That doesn't make any sense. (.) doesn't work on newtypes (unless you mean Category..
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12:29:32 <Gurkenglas> kuribas, yeah the implementation is pretty much "coerce (.)" (the (->) one) except they do the plumbing manually
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12:33:25 <kuribas> Gurkenglas: you cannot coerce any datatype. They would have need to expose the implementation, where the whole point is hiding it...
12:36:14 <Gurkenglas> kuribas, I don't follow. open the link and the ~"Optic k % Optic l = Optic (k . l)" is plain as day
12:39:17 <Gurkenglas> Now that we have linear types, shouldn't we have Setter1?
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12:42:15 <Gurkenglas> kuribas, oh, I think you confuse k % l = coerce (coerce k . coerce l) with (%) = coerce (.) :)
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12:49:34 <sszark> How do you store a closure in a tuple/list?
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12:51:45 <Gurkenglas> > let functionlist = [\x -> x+2, \x -> x*2, \y -> y+5] in (functionlist !! 2) 17 -- sszark
12:51:47 <lambdabot> 22
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13:03:07 <srid[m]> Does anyone in North America do remote development on a Hetzner dedicated machine (in Europe; Germany or Finland)? What's the latency like? For nvim in tmux.
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13:04:22 <srid[m]> ctx https://discourse.haskell.org/t/computer-for-compiling-haskell-programs/2351/6?u=srid
13:04:27 <dminuoso> srid[m]: It will be at least on average 90ms more than local connecity, that's for the light latency over trans-atlantic fiber optics.
13:04:41 <dminuoso> But details greatly depend on your own connectivity
13:04:51 <dminuoso> But likely it will be around 90-100ms
13:05:37 <srid[m]> Hmm, is that okay or bad? As far as interactively writing Haskell code in tmux/nvim is concerned?
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13:10:08 <srid[m]> Probably should just go for a desktop cpu with a good single thread performance
13:14:08 <sszark> You can use tools like Mosh if you want to abstract away the latency. Then your session is local and syncs with the remote.
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13:52:02 <kuribas> can I have external stack references with a range? Or do I have to pin the version?
13:52:47 <kuribas> like: acme-missiles-0.3@sha256:2ba66a092a32593880a87fb00f3213762d7bca65a687d45965778deb8694c5d1
13:52:47 <kuribas>
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14:04:48 <janus> sszark1: mosh does not know about application specific details. let's say you use Control-P or telescope and they write the whole screen in quick sucession, mosh can not help with that
14:07:16 <janus> but works great for trans-atlantic IRC sessions for me. but they require way less interactivity, and the mosh send-buffer visualisation with underline works great for the composition minibuffer
14:07:25 <dminuoso> emacs + tramp maybe?
14:07:59 <dminuoso> This could finally be the reason to switch sides.
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14:24:27 <sszark> that's true, does nvim not have any remote protocol like emacs? janus
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14:26:32 <maerwald> pretty sure it does
14:26:48 <maerwald> that was the entire point of the fork
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14:41:46 <kuribas> ugh, now I have to manually insert all packages with transitive dependencies in my stack.yaml, because I use packages which aren't in the curated set...
14:43:58 <maerwald> curated set...
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14:48:17 <kuribas> I have a perfectly working .ghc.environment, but stack is rejecting it.
14:48:25 <kuribas> hurray for solving dependency hell...
14:49:04 <kuribas> In the dependencies for cassava-0.5.2.0: bytestring-0.10.8.2 from stack configuration does not match >=0.9.2 && <0.10.4 (latest matching version is 0.10.2.0)
14:49:04 <kuribas>
14:49:33 <kuribas> yet, this works for newbuild
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14:51:39 <maerwald> what are you even building
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14:54:40 <kuribas> maerwald: some script for loading csv in the database
14:54:47 <siers> is monomorphization just type variable application at the type level? (application of what? type lambdas?)
14:55:12 <kuribas> siers: you can think of a forall as a type lambda, yes...
14:55:36 <kuribas> maerwald: this constraint is bullshit, the one in hackage is: bytestring (>=0.9.2 && <0.12),
14:55:44 <kuribas> maerwald: maybe stack has the wrong constraint?
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14:57:06 <maerwald> I dunno what you're building
14:57:50 <kuribas> maerwald: why do you need to know?
14:57:53 <kuribas> it's not relevant
14:58:07 <maerwald> I don't, but it's all guessing from this point
14:59:02 <kuribas> guessing what?
14:59:32 <kuribas> I think it's very concrete: stack is failing on a bullshit constraint
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15:00:26 <maerwald> guessing what you're building :D
15:00:36 <merijn> kuribas: Stack ignores hackage revisions
15:00:47 <maerwald> merijn: huh?
15:00:58 <maerwald> you can specify the revision afaik
15:01:31 <merijn> You coudn't last I checked, but maybe it changed
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15:02:35 <kuribas> merijn: so where does it get them?
15:02:59 <maerwald> - acme-missiles-0.3@rev:0
15:03:46 <maerwald> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pantry-0.5.2.3/docs/Pantry.html#t:CabalFileInfo
15:03:52 <maerwald> clearly supports revision
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15:07:04 <maerwald> hash is an implicit revision
15:07:16 <maerwald> it'll just look through all of them I think
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15:09:22 <kuribas> it doesn't matter if I give a revision, if stack is refusing it because of constraints.
15:09:37 <kuribas> I don't get where stack gets ">=0.9.2 && <0.10.4"
15:09:49 <maerwald> kuribas: well, either you tell us what you're building or... :p
15:09:50 <kuribas> for cassava-0.5.2.0
15:09:59 <maerwald> link to git repo
15:10:03 <kuribas> maerwald: I just told you.
15:10:09 <kuribas> maerwald: no, it's not open source...
15:10:11 <maerwald> can't clone your thoughts
15:10:20 <kuribas> it's company property
15:10:21 <maerwald> I can sign an NDA
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15:22:11 <kuribas> maerwald: if you don't know the question, it's fine...
15:22:25 <kuribas> I mean the answer to my question.
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15:32:13 <Hydrazer> does anyone know how to get the difference between 2 dates in year month day format in the data.time.calender library? i used diffdays but it only gave me the days
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15:34:53 <Hydrazer> well send me a message if you find out
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15:42:54 <c_wraith> *sigh*. I went looking on hackage to see if a function I want exists someplace. It's stuffed in a half-dozen packages as a throw-away utility.
15:43:28 <maerwald> create a package per function
15:43:42 <c_wraith> this one should probably just be in base
15:45:49 <c_wraith> ... or part of the language. I kind of wish every data type definition also created a non-recursive eliminator for the type
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15:58:36 <tomsmeding> as in, the recursive place is instead a call to an argument of this eliminator?
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16:01:12 <tomsmeding> kuribas: get the full dependency tree of your project using 'stack dot', download all the .cabal files for those packages from stackage and grep for 0.10.4; if not found, download all the .cabal files of _all the versions_ of those packages :p
16:01:30 <c_wraith> I think eliminator is the wrong term - it doesn't eliminate the type entirely, if the type is recursive. just one level of it
16:02:27 <kuribas> ugh stack is worse than cabal hell.
16:02:33 <tomsmeding> c_wraith: if I understand what you refer to correctly, I've wanted this multiple times with GADTs
16:02:40 <kuribas> unless it happens to have all your version perfectly in the snapshot.
16:02:48 <tomsmeding> making something like that generically using GHC generics should be doable, but gadts don't do generics :p
16:03:51 <c_wraith> Basically, I want cata : church encoding :: ??? : scott encoding
16:04:28 <kuribas> Or I guess stack forces you to use old versions...
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16:10:51 <maerwald> stack is worse than both nix and cabal... doesn't have the expressivity of nix and doesn't have the constraint solver of cabal
16:11:30 <maerwald> but it managed to provide a better user interface
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16:11:41 <janus> why does stack need a constraint solver if you have stackage?
16:12:03 <c_wraith> it needs *something* to specify versions the instant you step outside stackage
16:12:08 <c_wraith> it just punts to the user
16:12:12 <maerwald> janus: are you asking why you'd want to install packages outside of stackage?
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16:12:31 <sm> Hydrazer: it's difficult because it doesn't make sense - how would you display a count of days as Y-m-d
16:12:39 <maerwald> or why dependency resolution is a thing?
16:12:57 <janus> no, not really asking that. i just thought it was weird to make that the deciding factor acting like stackage doesn't exist
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16:13:14 <janus> i understand you may need one once you leave stackage
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16:13:46 <janus> thought it didn't seem super complicated the problems i had stepping outside of stackage. it remains the exception
16:13:58 <maerwald> cabal would allow us to define package range sets that work with each other... stack can't
16:14:24 <maerwald> you could add security overlays as constraints etc etc
16:14:32 <maerwald> all things stack can't do, because it doesn't have a solver
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16:16:15 <janus> that would be so cool
16:17:02 <kuribas> janus: because stackage doesn't have all libraries, or you need a newer version.
16:17:19 <maerwald> janus: https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/cabal-devel/2015-July/010214.html
16:17:52 <janus> kuribas: yes i know, occasionally i need to put an 'extra dep'. i acknowledged that already in my previous comment stating that it is the exception
16:18:15 <kuribas> janus: not for me
16:19:03 <janus> i acknowledge that it depends what you're trying to do, how bleeding edge you need to be
16:19:14 <maerwald> sometimes you add extra-dep and then in the next step it tells you to add a different version of the same dep you just added :D
16:19:23 <maerwald> which, of course, doesn't work
16:20:30 <janus> maerwald: what happened to that proposal by dcoutts go?
16:20:49 <maerwald> he got busy with blockchain xD
16:21:46 <maerwald> but it seems we'll likely get something along those lines
16:21:48 <maerwald> https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/7556
16:21:54 <janus> hmm, given the choice between undermining nation states (causing anarchy) and having cabal support package sets.... difficult choice
16:22:25 <janus> if you go for impact, you may choose the first
16:22:37 <siers> I hope it's the anarchist communist kind
16:23:04 <maerwald> I believe includes are the way to go: 1. generic includes and 2. constraint includes. As a 3rd step, named constraint sets can be introduced at a later stage and then as the last step provide an algebra to combine named constraint sets the way you like
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16:39:20 <maerwald> do we have a good story for versioned json parsing to maintain backwards compat?
16:41:32 <maerwald> https://github.com/Vlix/safe-json
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16:43:56 <janus> if you know the support lifetime once each migration begins, add the new field next to the old one, and put a comment on the old one stating it's removal date, and make calendar event for that date
16:44:58 <janus> if the schema changes too much, do the same for endpoints
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16:45:52 <janus> an Aeson parser will ignore unknown keys of an object, so never have an endpoint return anything that is not an object, otherwise, you will not be able to change the schema without a new endpoint
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16:48:05 <janus> one thing that sucks about Aeson is that AFAIK it is not verify convenient to omit a key. so if you have a key that is supposed to be omitted when its value is Nothing, it is hard to test for that with e.g. a property test that uses your serializer
16:49:24 <janus> but that is not strictly related to version migrations i guess
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16:57:18 <siers> I'm learning about GADTs and I noticed when I have a GADT, say Nats, – SNat ('Succ ('Succ Zero)) – the type parameter inside of it seems to be a value
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16:58:51 <siers> or, well, the constructor names
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17:00:35 <siers> which are a part of values, but do not appear when checking the types of ADTs
17:00:45 <glguy> siers: The DataKinds extension creates new types corresponding to those constructors as a shortcut, they aren't directly related to the corresponding value constructors
17:01:14 <glguy> but there's nothing other than the letters in the name looking the same that ties 'Succ as a type to Succ as a value
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17:02:55 <glguy> The fact that a GADT is involved is a bit of a coincidence. DataKinds are independent from GADTs
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17:03:52 <siers> but DataKinds come with GADTs?
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17:05:41 <glguy> no
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17:07:11 <siers> so no correlation whatsoever, ok
17:07:16 <glguy> Instead of using the conveniently derived 'Succ and 'Zero types, you could have defined new types without data kinds and the functionality would be identical
17:07:35 <glguy> data ZeroType; data SuccType a
17:08:55 <glguy> also: Your example had Zero and not 'Zero, but that's just GHC being helpful and guessing you meant 'Zero, it wasn't using the value constructor Zero
17:09:28 <siers> that is my mistake after retyping, it is there in the shell
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17:20:45 <aegon> how come there is both Generic and Generic1
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17:26:17 <monochrom> When you find yourself wanting to auto-gen "instance Monad Foo" instead of merely "instance Monoid (Foo a)" you will begin to appreciate it.
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17:29:04 <monochrom> Oh haha Monday Morning Haskell opens the old wounds of "is this a quicksort?" controversy again!
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18:27:24 <lbseale> monochrom: thanks again for your help yesterday, I got a shell function working just right
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19:32:21 <jakefromstatefar> <Axman6> "jakefromstatefarm(the1&only): is..." <- I tried it out for some random project, then realized that the project was way above my head, and promptly switched to another language (that I was capable in).
19:32:26 <jakefromstatefar> However, I cannot seem to uninstall it
19:32:34 <jakefromstatefar> as it doesn't appear in the installed list anymore
19:32:36 <jakefromstatefar> I'm confused
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19:50:18 <sm> jakefromstatefarm: there are usually multiple package dbs on your system, make sure you're working with the right one
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21:07:49 <aegon> well, fooey, the haskell symposium payment link doesn't work for me, does anyone know if any of it is going to be broadcast online?
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21:08:45 <geekosaur> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVrlaF7sCU4 I think?
21:10:37 <aegon> ooh, it stopped looping refresh on my browser. its wired, this isn't a odd browser (firefox)
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21:11:22 <aegon> The faster,
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21:34:15 <aegon> geekosaur: thanks, for whatever reason the payment site keeps directing me to a scetch looking site that continually refreshes and loops :? Sub'd to teh icpf channel and will catch them there. I'm interested in the linear type talks and seeing some applications of it. I'll have to catch it earlier next year
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22:19:01 <monochrom> Oh w00t 8.10.7
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23:19:04 <maralorn> I know of a lot of alternative syntax languages that compile to javascript. Are there alternative syntax languages that compile to Haskell?
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23:24:51 <aegon> maralorn: haskell :P
23:25:28 <geekosaur> agda at least used to compile to haskell
23:25:50 <hpc> agda's haskell was pretty funny, every single expression was unsafeCoerced
23:26:05 <geekosaur> I don't know if liquid haskell counts as "alternative syntax" to you
23:26:15 <hpc> template haskell? :D
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23:30:32 <maralorn> I am more thinking along the lines of https://github.com/serras/hinc. But was wondering if there are other approaches.
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All times are in UTC on 2021-08-26.