Logs on 2021-08-29 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:11:47 | <koz> | The documentation for Data.Complex.Complex refers to an Ord instance, but that data type lacks one. Is this a typo, or is the instance cleverly hidden someplace? |
| 00:15:30 | <geekosaur> | strictly speaking it shouldn't have one |
| 00:18:29 | <koz> | Agreed, but this documentation suggests it existed once, got removed, but not completely. |
| 00:18:51 | <koz> | I mean, even Gaussian integers don't have a total order that respects arithmetic. |
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| 00:46:35 | <monochrom> | I think it's just a matter of forgetting to delete a sentence. |
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| 02:01:03 | <iqubic> | Why doesn't Complex have an ord instance? Data.Linear's V2 type has one. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/linear-1.21.6/docs/Linear-V2.html |
| 02:01:11 | <iqubic> | I fail to see the difference there. |
| 02:09:03 | <pavonia> | I guess it's only there for practical reasons like storing those numbers in a Map |
| 02:09:39 | <geekosaur> | does V2 have a Num instance? |
| 02:10:03 | <pavonia> | Yes |
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| 02:10:41 | <janus> | could the reason why V2 has one and Complex doesn't be, that people usually mention the x axis before the y axis? but complex is not for cartesian coordinates |
| 02:11:20 | <janus> | i am not great at math, be kind :P |
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| 02:13:13 | <janus> | or do you think that V2 is not just for cartesian coordinates? |
| 02:16:21 | <nshepperd> | it's a matter of ideology |
| 02:16:40 | <nshepperd> | and the maintainer of linear is different from the maintainers of base |
| 02:17:40 | <janus> | nshepperd: what is an example of an ideological opinion we're seeing here? |
| 02:18:09 | <nshepperd> | that the ordering expressed by Ord must be compatible with arithmetic |
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| 02:20:20 | <janus> | so "class Ord" is underspecified because it doesn't state its opinion? not necessarily sinfully underspecified, but underspecified, right? |
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| 02:24:29 | <nshepperd> | it mentions that there aren't any laws in the haskell report, but does state desiderata that it should at least be a non strict partial order |
| 02:25:01 | <nshepperd> | you could take that as stating an opinion against such a requirement or as stating no opinion i suppose |
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| 02:45:18 | <shachaf> | Double has an Ord instance, so who knows what it means, really. |
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| 03:27:27 | <NoidedSuper> | As horrible as working with type-level stuff in Haskell can be |
| 03:27:33 | <NoidedSuper> | When you get it working it feels so, so good |
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| 03:27:58 | <NoidedSuper> | (sneak preview of a thing I hope will eventually be really useful to a lot of people: https://gist.github.com/AnthonySuper/eecf08998135685774cfbc17f484327b) |
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| 04:09:24 | <janus> | argh why leave right after posting... |
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| 08:35:58 | <tomsmeding> | I have a haskell program (ircbrowse) that clearly has a memory leak: if I spam it with requests, memory usage steadily grows. However, I've tried all of -hc -hm -hd -hy -hr (also -hb but that crashes?) and while they all break the memory usage down in different ways, in all breakdowns, all categories grow ~equally fast over time, so they give me 0 information. How do I debug this? |
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| 08:39:44 | <DigitalKiwi> | quick everyone respond so that tomsmeding gets OOMed |
| 08:40:31 | <maerwald[m]> | tomsmeding: enabled StrictData yet :p |
| 08:40:50 | <tomsmeding> | no :p |
| 08:40:56 | <maerwald[m]> | Do it |
| 08:40:58 | <tomsmeding> | like, I can also do git bisect |
| 08:41:11 | <tomsmeding> | but I'm curious if I can get _some_ diagnostics on this |
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| 08:46:11 | <fendor_> | tomsmeding, probably ghc-debug? |
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| 08:48:00 | <tomsmeding> | isn't that only ghc 9.2? |
| 08:48:13 | <tomsmeding> | (I could try that, sure) |
| 08:49:33 | <fendor> | yeah, but it was written with that purpose in mind |
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| 08:52:31 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald[m]: ghc-options: -XStrictData doesn't help |
| 08:54:41 | <tomsmeding> | is there a guide to using ghc-debug? |
| 08:54:45 | <tomsmeding> | fendor: ^ |
| 08:55:14 | <fendor> | tomsmeding, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zuAsGk9xoM |
| 08:55:44 | <tomsmeding> | heh yeah that's still on my watchlist |
| 08:56:00 | <fendor> | https://github.com/well-typed/memory-usage-zurihac-2021 |
| 08:56:08 | <fendor> | now you have an excuse! |
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| 16:52:58 | <siers> | tomsmeding, I learned more about GADTs and your gdiff implementation for a list now makes more sense. \o/ |
| 16:55:14 | <siers> | tomsmeding, gdiff I think was initially written for agda, so all the dependent typeish machinery in haskell stands in the way of 'getting it' for me |
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| 17:31:37 | <siers> | does reflex frp have some runnable examples in the browser? |
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| 17:41:53 | <Cale> | I have some random bits and pieces accumulated by helping people with random things. https://cale.l5.ca/Demos/ |
| 17:42:18 | <Cale> | I'm a bit sad that the PrismataUnits one no longer works... |
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| 17:43:07 | <siers> | nice! |
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| 17:58:41 | <mastarija> | Do we have any markdown parser that also supports those yaml headers? And isn't pandoc / pandoc dependent? |
| 17:59:41 | <sm> | could you rephrase that ? |
| 17:59:47 | <Rembane_> | mastarija: Do you need a markdown parser that isn't Pandoc? Because Pandoc supports it. |
| 18:00:13 | <mastarija> | Rembane_, yes, something that isn't Pandoc |
| 18:00:18 | <mastarija> | something small |
| 18:00:42 | <sm> | search hackage for "markdown" with google (some packages don't have it in their name IIRC) |
| 18:01:06 | <mastarija> | sm, will try |
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| 18:01:41 | <mastarija> | all I've found on hackage so far was pure markdown, but I want some metadata with my markdown |
| 18:02:02 | <Lycurgus> | is pandoc still a thing? |
| 18:02:12 | <mastarija> | Lycurgus, a big thing |
| 18:02:41 | <Lycurgus> | ah good just checking |
| 18:03:29 | <Rembane_> | mastarija: If you don't find anything that supports YAML headers you can parse out the header first yourself and then send the rest to the markdown parser |
| 18:03:39 | <mastarija> | Yes, that's my backup plan |
| 18:03:50 | <mastarija> | But I've found mmark now |
| 18:04:03 | <mastarija> | Put markdown and yaml in google and that came out |
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| 18:04:28 | <sm> | mastarija, cmark or cheapskate seem the way to go |
| 18:04:40 | <davean> | mastarija: you don't do metadata with markdown, yaml the spec has a thing for trailing data that you would THEN feed into markdown processors |
| 18:04:48 | <sm> | or mmark |
| 18:04:54 | <mastarija> | davean, ah... yes |
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| 18:05:09 | <mastarija> | I was thinking that maybe I'm going about it the wrong way |
| 18:05:19 | <davean> | mastarija: yep |
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| 18:05:24 | <mastarija> | but then again, I'm looking for out of the box experience |
| 18:05:26 | <davean> | Nice and easy actually |
| 18:05:53 | <mastarija> | davean, so maybe I can use cmark + yaml package |
| 18:07:10 | <mastarija> | davean, do you maybe know of an example, how does one access the trailing data, is it a special YAML field name? |
| 18:07:11 | <davean> | mastarija: yep |
| 18:07:34 | <davean> | Oh god, I haven't done this in a few years lets see if I remember |
| 18:07:52 | <mastarija> | :) |
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| 18:08:35 | <davean> | I stopped using YAML bcause of how insane the spec is |
| 18:09:38 | <mastarija> | I always heard about the spec being insane, but for me it's just JSON without braces |
| 18:10:11 | [exa] | makes a wish for a decent bencode editor |
| 18:10:14 | <davean> | ITS VERY MUCH NOT and you can't safely expect thats what it is |
| 18:10:31 | <davean> | mastarija: Your files can extremely violate that idea |
| 18:10:35 | <davean> | and no, I don't recall sadly |
| 18:10:59 | <davean> | Theres a reason there are multiple CSVs of "used yaml as a file format" |
| 18:11:15 | <mastarija> | I meant, it's JSON for me because how I use it. I'm sure others might have some horror stories :D |
| 18:11:32 | <davean> | A fully compliant YAML parser can cause arbitrary code execution during decoding :-p |
| 18:11:57 | <mastarija> | Lol |
| 18:12:00 | <davean> | if you only get YAML files from yourself thats fine |
| 18:12:05 | <davean> | but if someone else can create them? |
| 18:12:08 | <davean> | Uh |
| 18:12:15 | <davean> | Enjoy being their cloud provider? :) |
| 18:13:25 | <davean> | Luckily I don't think theres any YAML parsers that can even do that in Haskell because Haskell doesn't make hooking like that make sense |
| 18:13:43 | <davean> | but its happened a large number of times in practice |
| 18:13:47 | <mastarija> | Honestly, I was always a bit skeptical about configuration "languages". Maybe because I don't do very complicated stuff, but things like nix or dhall always look like complications, rather than solutions to me |
| 18:15:02 | <davean> | oh, no I mean YAML is a data format |
| 18:15:19 | <davean> | that dataformat can just happen to call constructors in your language with arbitrary parameters |
| 18:15:29 | <davean> | so like Grovy("heres the script I want to run") |
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| 18:16:12 | <mastarija> | davean, yes, that execution just reminded me of nix / dhall |
| 18:16:12 | <davean> | Thats your data |
| 18:16:15 | <davean> | Ah |
| 18:16:28 | <mastarija> | So I went on a mini rant :D |
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| 18:20:40 | <sm> | like backfiring.. set off a mini rant to stop the big rant :) |
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| 19:11:18 | <siers> | could you make a excel-kind spreadsheet program with frp? |
| 19:12:30 | <maerwald> | with frp? :D |
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| 19:12:45 | <siers> | react frp, I suppose |
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| 19:18:03 | <maerwald> | siers: https://i.imgflip.com/5l7mel.jpg |
| 19:18:06 | <maerwald> | couldn't resist |
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| 19:31:04 | <hololeap> | siers: you might want to check out elm |
| 19:31:23 | <hololeap> | if you're making something like that for the browser |
| 19:31:43 | <carbolymer> | I'm trying to start vim from my shake script: https://bpa.st/SVTA - but I think I need to allocate terminal to make it work interactively - how can I do that? |
| 19:32:00 | <siers> | hololeap, I would really rather want to try haskell + ghcjs, since it's nothing serious |
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| 19:32:47 | <hololeap> | do you, but I found elm quite fun to work with |
| 19:33:07 | <hololeap> | once you get used to the restrictions (e.g. no typeclasses) |
| 19:33:49 | <maerwald> | siers: miso |
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| 20:08:45 | <_bin> | Good afternoon, this code is failing to compile, saying, "Couldn't match expected type 'Toml.Key' with actual type '[Char]': https://paste.tomsmeding.com/DaT48aj9 It closely matches the example code listed for this library, so I'm unsure as to why this might be happening: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tomland |
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| 20:15:18 | <c_wraith> | _bin: well.. long odds the problem code isn't what you pasted |
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| 20:17:12 | <c_wraith> | _bin: oh, nevermind! here's your problem: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tomland-1.3.3.0/docs/Toml-Codec-Combinator-Primitive.html#v:int |
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| 20:18:25 | <_bin> | c_wraith: Right, it appears to take a Key, but the example code shows using just string literals and doesn't mention directly creating a Key. |
| 20:18:34 | <_bin> | Or is there something else? |
| 20:18:46 | <c_wraith> | _bin: I'd blame out of date examples. (Examples are always out of date) |
| 20:19:26 | <c_wraith> | the next line looks probably-wrong too |
| 20:20:19 | <_bin> | c_wraith: I lost a prior version of the code where it was working, I believe... Another example, updated this February, shows similar: https://github.com/kowainik/tomland/blob/main/examples/Main.hs#L107 |
| 20:20:25 | <_bin> | Next line has the same error, yes. |
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| 20:23:55 | <c_wraith> | yeah, you're basing it on the comment in https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tomland-1.3.3.0/docs/Toml-Codec-Di.html#v:.-61- ? |
| 20:23:58 | <c_wraith> | that's clearly out of date |
| 20:24:04 | <c_wraith> | Toml.str doesn't exist |
| 20:24:17 | <c_wraith> | examples always lie |
| 20:25:23 | <c_wraith> | Ah. It expects you to have OverloadedStrings enabled. |
| 20:25:39 | <c_wraith> | I'd skip that and just call fromString so that inference remains sane |
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| 20:36:26 | <_bin> | Thanks, I appreciate it |
| 20:39:41 | <_bin> | c_wraith: Weirdly, it's still not working with OverloadedStrings. How would I go about using `fromString` to resolve this? |
| 20:40:16 | <c_wraith> | same code, just enabled OverloadedStrings? What error is it giving you now? |
| 20:42:49 | <_bin> | Yes, exact same but with OverloadedStrings. Same error: "Couldn't match expected type ‘Toml.Key’ with actual type ‘[Char]’" |
| 20:43:29 | <c_wraith> | That suggests you didn't actually enable OverloadedStrings. It would give an error message about IsString a => a instead of [Char] |
| 20:44:13 | <_bin> | Oh dang, you're right. It appears I accidentally put my language directive after the module where line. My bad. |
| 20:44:29 | <c_wraith> | easy mistake to make, really. I've done it several times. |
| 20:45:14 | <maerwald> | you can also just use `fromString` |
| 20:45:24 | <maerwald> | it may be more hygienic |
| 20:45:59 | <c_wraith> | You'll note that was my original recommendation. :P |
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| 20:46:45 | <c_wraith> | _bin: in case you're curious.. The OverloadedStrings extension just adds fromString calls to all string *literals* in the code. You can apply those calls yourself, if you so desire. |
| 20:46:52 | <maerwald> | yeah, overloadedstrings can confuse type inference etc |
| 20:47:16 | <_bin> | Oh, handy to know, thanks. I'll give that a shot instead. |
| 20:47:18 | <maerwald> | it would be cool if you could specify for which literals it works |
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| 20:49:47 | <maerwald> | that would also solve half of the bytestring debacle, because you could just ban the instance |
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| 20:50:40 | <Cale> | I think a default declaration might work? |
| 20:51:22 | <Cale> | At least, if what you want is the same as annotating all the ambiguous stuff with :: Text or some such. |
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| 20:52:36 | <c_wraith> | Not by itself. Maybe with ExtendedDefaultRules that would work |
| 20:53:46 | <Cale> | Haskell’s defaulting mechanism (Haskell Report, Section 4.3.4) is extended to cover string literals, when OverloadedStrings is specified. Specifically: |
| 20:53:46 | <Cale> | Each type in a default declaration must be an instance of Num or of IsString. |
| 20:53:46 | <Cale> | If no default declaration is given, then it is just as if the module contained the declaration default( Integer, Double, String). |
| 20:53:46 | <Cale> | The standard defaulting rule is extended thus: defaulting applies when all the unresolved constraints involve standard classes or IsString; and at least one is a numeric class or IsString. |
| 20:54:06 | <c_wraith> | oh, huh. I didn't realize OverloadedStrings included that |
| 20:55:26 | <Cale> | I didn't know about it either, just suspected that someone might've done it due to the purpose of defaulting in the first place. |
| 20:58:14 | <_bin> | Cale: Oh cool, thanks for mentioning that. |
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| 21:24:00 | <opac> | any book/articles/blogs about haskell bug/vulnerabilities? |
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| 21:27:21 | <maerwald> | opac: we've been pretending that doesn't exist... I'm still waiting for the first big incident |
| 21:27:22 | <sm> | nope, never happens |
| 21:27:32 | <maerwald> | we don't even have a CVE workflow |
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| 21:29:07 | <opac> | lol |
| 21:29:25 | <opac> | no segfaults ? :( |
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| 21:30:04 | <davean> | opac: how would you get a segv with Haskell? You'd have to really do something thats explicitely a problem |
| 21:30:34 | <maerwald> | easily via borked ffi |
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| 21:32:37 | <opac> | davean: I dont know. I am interested in learning how those cases happen. Never wrote 1 line of haskell :x |
| 21:32:54 | <opac> | Im young :X |
| 21:32:57 | <maerwald> | https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20210709-capi-usage.html |
| 21:33:07 | <jpds> | opac: Maybe start with a book on Haskell itself then |
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| 21:34:16 | <opac> | jpds will do |
| 21:36:39 | <monochrom> | I don't understand the motivation behind the question. Suppose I had never learned C. I don't suppose it would be productive to read "C bugs/vulnerability blogs". Unless my goal were to look for something to laugh at. |
| 21:36:50 | <maerwald> | :D |
| 21:37:01 | <maerwald> | or win a specific argument |
| 21:37:57 | <davean> | maerwald: yes, ffi is explicitely a problem, as is unsafe coerce |
| 21:38:16 | <davean> | You want to do both sometimes, but its pretty clear that they can be a problem |
| 21:42:04 | <opac> | monochrom: i have interest in security related topics thats why and was looking for a writeup or blog of a haskell's program being exploited (rare) - if I come with one, can I turn to NFT? |
| 21:42:47 | <opac> | davean: you'd say ffi is the source of prior `bugs`? |
| 21:42:51 | <monochrom> | Would you understand it? Do you have the Haskell knowledge to understand it? |
| 21:43:21 | <monochrom> | Like I said, if I hadn't learned C, I would not understand an article that requires knowledge in C. |
| 21:43:42 | <opac> | well depends, which other langs you know |
| 21:44:10 | <monochrom> | Haskell. Pascal. |
| 21:45:43 | <opac> | since the syntax is way simpler... if the writeup is detailed... then I am sure you'd have an enjoyable time reading C |
| 21:45:52 | <davean> | No, I don't think so at all |
| 21:46:05 | <davean> | That misses the poin tof whats important to understand this |
| 21:46:05 | <maerwald> | https://frasertweedale.github.io/blog-fp/posts/2021-02-12-haskell-dependency-confusion.html |
| 21:46:18 | <davean> | The only thing close enough to be useful for me to understand C is probably assembly |
| 21:47:01 | <janiczek> | Hey there, I'm writing manual combined Except+State monad impl in Elm and I can't figure out the ending of andThen (bind). I'm sure it's something silly. Could you take a look? https://gist.github.com/Janiczek/a979c8a8f59d4a5186b2a340991a3aef |
| 21:47:06 | <maerwald> | I believe there was a hacking course too, but I can't find it anymore |
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| 21:50:58 | <opac> | thanks for your thoughs |
| 21:51:12 | <monochrom> | janiczek: I understand "s -> Result e (s, a)", and I understand "s -> (s, Result e a)". But I don't understand "Result e (s -> (s, a))". Do you? |
| 21:52:24 | <janiczek> | @monochrom: Um, you're saying State . Except makes sense but Except . State isn't possible? |
| 21:52:24 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
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| 22:00:53 | <janiczek> | Hm indeed when I tried "s -> Result e (s, a)" I had no issues... |
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| 22:13:39 | <Cale> | maerwald: Good reason to be using nix, and to specify the hashes that you expect Hackage packages to have when downloaded. :) |
| 22:19:46 | <janiczek> | So `ExceptT e (StateT s a)` and `StateT s (ExceptT e a)` result in `s -> Either e (a, s)` and `s -> (Either e a, s)` but neither in `Either e (s -> (a, s))` or something else that would have the Either on the outside? |
| 22:20:35 | <Cale> | correct |
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| 22:21:41 | <janiczek> | Seems unsymmetrical somehow :D and slightly magical... but fair enough |
| 22:22:11 | <Cale> | Well, if you just look at the definition of ExceptT and especially StateT, it'll become clear why :) |
| 22:22:42 | <Cale> | newtype StateT s m a = StateT { runStateT :: s -> m (a, s) } |
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| 22:23:07 | <Cale> | puts the m in the middle |
| 22:24:27 | <janiczek> | Ah I see |
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| 22:25:07 | <Cale> | Also, perhaps if you don't hide the m's... |
| 22:25:42 | <Cale> | @unmtl ExceptT e (StateT s a) |
| 22:25:42 | <lambdabot> | err: `ExceptT e (StateT s a)' is not applied to enough arguments, giving `/\A. s -> a (Either e A, s)' |
| 22:25:54 | <Cale> | @unmtl ExceptT e (StateT s m a) |
| 22:25:54 | <lambdabot> | err: `ExceptT e (s -> m (a, s))' is not applied to enough arguments. |
| 22:25:59 | <Cale> | @unmtl ExceptT e (StateT s m) a |
| 22:25:59 | <lambdabot> | s -> m (Either e a, s) |
| 22:26:02 | <Cale> | there :) |
| 22:26:30 | <Cale> | @unmtl StateT s (EitherT e m) a |
| 22:26:30 | <lambdabot> | s -> EitherT e m (a, s) |
| 22:26:54 | <Cale> | @unmtl StateT s (ExceptT e m) a |
| 22:26:54 | <lambdabot> | s -> m (Either e (a, s)) |
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| 22:28:07 | <Cale> | Quite often monad transformers end up changing the result type of the monad they're transforming, internally |
| 22:29:55 | <janiczek> | Yeah it didn't occur to me, I went straight for "the other monad goes instead of `a` and that's it". Thanks for the explanation! |
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| 22:49:26 | pavonia_ | is now known as pavonia |
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| 22:50:30 | × | albet70 quits (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 22:50:51 | → | Vajb joins (~Vajb@hag-jnsbng11-58c3ab-85.dhcp.inet.fi) |
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| 22:53:44 | <maerwald[m]> | Cale: `plan.json` has hashes as well |
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| 23:32:29 | × | opac quits (~opac@ip-28-56.sn2.clouditalia.com) (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) |
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| 23:39:17 | × | gehmehgeh quits (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 23:41:57 | × | eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:44d2:fabf:4572:a77d) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-08-29.