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| 01:41:32 | <sim590> | Is there a way to compile your code so that all of your datatypes derive a default Show instance without actually modifying the code? Some sort of flag you could pass to ghc ? |
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| 01:43:58 | <pavonia> | That would cause inconsistencies across different packages, so hopefully you can't |
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| 01:45:37 | <pavonia> | sim590: What you could do is to have an extra module with the instances and link that |
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| 01:48:26 | <sim590> | pavonia: why is that so? Let's say I would like to do that only for debugging purposes by compiling in a debug mode and not bother wether I did or not create a Show instance. What is the big deal if in the case when there's no Show instance for a given data type, ghc creates one ? I don't really see the issue. |
| 01:49:17 | <sim590> | Because the advantage of using ghci to debug is not have to modify the code in order to debug. But if you have to put Show instances everytime you want to see what's inside something, it becomes annoying. |
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| 01:50:59 | <pavonia> | What if another modules creates one too? Then you have two instances of the same type in scope but your code doesn't represent that |
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| 01:52:05 | <sim590> | If I create an extra module, let's say MyProject.Debug.MyModule and I define the instance inside that module, then I will end up with the warning "oprhan instance". I always try to get rid of warnings. I'm not sure I would like to disable this one. Unless I can tell cabal to compile the Debug module and disable the warning when in debug mode and do the opposite when not in debug mode? |
| 01:53:31 | <sim590> | pavonia: wouldn't ghc be just able to detect whether there is another instance and not create one if there is? |
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| 01:53:54 | <pavonia> | You can have flags in cabal files with different options, I think |
| 01:54:19 | <pavonia> | No, it wouldn't know whether there is already one is scope because the code say there is none |
| 01:54:23 | <c_wraith> | I don't understand why you don't want show instances normally |
| 01:54:35 | <pavonia> | The linker would complain, though |
| 01:55:13 | <sim590> | pavonia: then if there's compile time errors, it's fine. I'm not sure why ghc could never provide that functionnality |
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| 01:56:12 | <sim590> | c_wraith: Some datatypes just don't need to be showed in the normal cases. If that's just for debugging purposes, I don't know why I would derive it for the user of my library. |
| 01:56:36 | <c_wraith> | so... you're optimizing to make debugging hard at no cost to users? |
| 01:58:03 | <pavonia> | sim590: What would be a convincing reason to support such a functionality? I can't see the advantage over just deriving Show automatically in your code |
| 01:59:17 | <sim590> | It's no optimization. It's rather just that I'm writing code based on the needs of the user. The user of the library doesn't need to debug my code so it wouldn't need to have the instance of show. And if the user would need it, then I say that all my types should have a Show instance which brings me back to the GHC option flag I'm thinking I'd like to have because why bother enabling manually a |
| 01:59:19 | <sim590> | Show instance if you want it in every cases. |
| 01:59:40 | <c_wraith> | Because not every type can have a (sensible) show instance |
| 02:00:35 | <sim590> | As soon as you need to check what's inside of a datatype, then you need it. If you're debugging, the :print command doesn't inform you on the values inside, but rather just the types. |
| 02:01:47 | <pavonia> | You can always use preprocessor conditionals if you really want to hide the instances from your users |
| 02:02:18 | <sim590> | But if I'm to do that, then I don't see a datatype that wouldn't have a Show instance for debugging purposes. |
| 02:02:33 | <sim590> | Can you give an example of some datatype that couldn't be showed? |
| 02:02:44 | <janus> | Void :P |
| 02:02:49 | <sim590> | Yeah... |
| 02:02:49 | <c_wraith> | data Foo = Foo (Int -> (Int -> Int)) |
| 02:03:12 | <sim590> | OK. So a datatype that contains a function cannot be shown, right? |
| 02:04:19 | <pavonia> | data Foo = Foo (IO ()) is another example |
| 02:04:24 | <janus> | Category seems to have no Show https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/Control-Category.html |
| 02:05:12 | <sim590> | OK, but what about deriving Show for all datatypes that don't contain a function inside it but rather "simple" data types (what would you call it actually?) |
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| 02:08:13 | <janus> | you can derive a sensible Show datatypes that are not polymorphic and have constructors and do not contains functions, i guess.. |
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| 02:08:54 | <janus> | *Show for datatypes |
| 02:09:00 | <pavonia> | sim590: Are you seriously arguing GHC should implement an option that might cause inconstistent object files only that you don't need to ignore a compiler warning for your debugging module? |
| 02:11:00 | <sim590> | No, but rather only that I don't have to always specify `deriving Show` for all datatypes when the only reason I would do that is for debugging puposes. What I'm arguing about is that it is not a function of my datatype to be showable. It's not used in any circumstances for outputing or serializing anything. So why would I have a Show instance. It doesn't make sense. |
| 02:11:10 | <sim590> | Then it makes it so the code doesn't make sense and it is irritating. |
| 02:11:55 | <janus> | but how could the compiler know if you would stick a function in there in the future? |
| 02:12:28 | <janus> | by writing "deriving Show" you're also making an assertion about its future behaviour |
| 02:12:48 | <sim590> | May be at runtime it could try and see if it can show it and figure out that it cannot and bail out with the usual error it prompts me with at the moment. |
| 02:13:19 | <sim590> | I'm talking about GHCi repl. |
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| 02:13:50 | <janus> | but then GHCi would work totally different ? |
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| 02:14:28 | <sim590> | What if I'd activate a flag for that with :set or something. |
| 02:15:14 | <janus> | sounds like you want something like -fdefer-type-errors and something else than type classes that are not resolved at compile time |
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| 02:16:35 | <sim590> | Does it exist? |
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| 02:17:44 | <sim590> | Would -XStandaloneDeriving help me ? Could I then derive the Show instance live in the GHCi repl? |
| 02:18:36 | <pavonia> | Yes, you would still have to type it :3 |
| 02:19:12 | <pavonia> | Doesn't :force even work there too? |
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| 02:21:55 | <sim590> | pavonia: That's OK. As long as I don't modify my file, I'm fine with that. I guess if I'd have more of these types to derive, then I'd be looking for something else. May be a file to run a list of repl commands before launching so that I don't have to run them by hand every time I launch my repl. |
| 02:23:20 | <janus> | but you'd need to enumerate them, that's a dealbreaker for you no? |
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| 02:26:59 | <sim590> | janus: I would have prefered something that is instantenous for which I wouldn't need to enumerate, indeed. But not modifying my source files is a big improvement. |
| 02:28:03 | <janus> | sim590: you may need to modify your source files, since you can't make use standalone deriving without having the type available, so you may need exports , i think |
| 02:28:41 | <janus> | one exported type could have an internal type embedded in it, which wouldn't be exported. how would you use standalone deriving on it? |
| 02:29:04 | <pavonia> | Why not just an extra module? If its just for debugging purpose, why to care about orphan instances? |
| 02:29:25 | <sim590> | pavonia: actually :force works |
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| 02:33:45 | <sm> | sim590: is it such a big hassle to specify Show in your types' classes ? |
| 02:36:28 | <sim590> | sm: as I said earlier, it doesn't make sense. I don't like writing it if it doesn't makes sense. I'm expecting that if something derives the Show instance, it's that it's either going to be serialized in some way or printed somewhere. I want to keep a code that honors the expectations. That's how I see it.. |
| 02:37:40 | <sm> | I'm having a hard time understanding this, could be my fault |
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| 02:42:29 | <sim590> | May be it is a just a matter of opinion. But that's how I see my code. I want to write it in a way that if you write something, it's not in case you need it. It's because you *need* it. And I don't need the show instance in normal circumstances. If I can derive it while debugging and remove it afterwards and that my code is totally fine then and the library does what it needs to do, then it means |
| 02:42:31 | <sim590> | that I don't need the Show instance in my code. |
| 02:44:40 | <sm> | is it that you don't want to see "deriving Show" in the source ? or you don't want the generated show code in your production executable ? both ? |
| 02:45:10 | <monochrom> | "data Foo = MkFoo deriving ()" is legal. |
| 02:45:53 | <monochrom> | Now you can "#define SHOW Show" or "#define SHOW" depending on a flag. Then "data Foo = MkFoo deriving (SHOW)". |
| 02:46:21 | <monochrom> | perhaps s/SHOW/MAYBESHOW/ |
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| 02:47:39 | <sim590> | sm: both I'd say. |
| 02:48:46 | <sm> | you can certainly have separate production and debug builds, with Show included by a build flag, eg like monochrom said. Personally I would really avoid that unless it were absolutely necessary |
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| 02:49:16 | <sm> | eg the production build is usually the one you'll want debug output from.. |
| 02:49:18 | <sim590> | monochrom: interesting! I'd keep that functionality in mind. For now, I think that :force is great for what I need. If I ever need something else, I'll think about that. I'll take a note. Thanks!! |
| 02:50:20 | <monochrom> | In a test suite, I would use some kind of standalone deriving, and move on. |
| 02:51:01 | <ystael> | in a _production_ system, I would derive Show _everywhere_ and swear about the places where I can't, because every missed opportunity to add inspectability is suffering waiting to happen |
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| 02:51:35 | <monochrom> | Assuming that my users absolutely do not want me to do "deriving Show" outside the test suite. |
| 02:52:23 | <sm> | ystael++ |
| 02:52:26 | <monochrom> | My suspicion though is that my users would appreciate it if I derived Show so they can also deriving Show. |
| 02:53:21 | <sim590> | Weird: http://ix.io/3xv7. I've issued :force a first time and I got `mt = _`. Then I ran :print on it. I only saw the types then. And then, I tried :force again and it gave a different result (the one I wanted to being with). Why? Just curious. |
| 02:53:32 | <monochrom> | Right? If my type is T and their type is "data B = MkB T Int deriving Show" and it errs on the stupid technicality that I don't provide Show in any way. |
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| 02:54:04 | <monochrom> | I definitely have seen complaints in this channel for that. |
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| 02:55:26 | <sim590> | monochrom: But why wouldn't your users just use `:force` in GHCi if there's no point in showing the datatype in question (I'm supposing we're talking about a data type which it makes no sense to show in normal circumstances). |
| 02:55:44 | <monochrom> | Huh, my users aren't using :force. |
| 02:55:54 | <monochrom> | My users aren't using ghci either. |
| 02:55:55 | <sim590> | Well, may be they should. :p |
| 02:56:14 | <monochrom> | Perhaps they also have their test suites to run. |
| 02:56:53 | <monochrom> | You are saying that every use case of my library must confine itself to ghci and :force. |
| 02:57:07 | <monochrom> | Is that some kind of proprietory lock in? |
| 02:58:49 | <sim590> | It depends on the library. If we're talking about a library that define fundamental data types, like Maybe for instance, then I say yeah you could show it. But if your type hides a potentially huge recursive definition (like a tree), then I don't think it's worth doing since nobody is gonna show that somewhere. |
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| 03:21:42 | <pavonia> | Missing or "wrong" Show instances is actually one of the biggest nuisance in user libraries, IMHO |
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| 05:53:26 | <dminuoso> | pavonia: Is it? Im personally annoyed by the abundance of incorrect Show instances. |
| 05:53:41 | <dminuoso> | At the end, they are just some rudimentary debugging tool for developers. |
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| 05:56:19 | <pavonia> | Well, that's what I meant by "wrong". Instances that do no reflect the underlying Haskell data type |
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| 06:24:38 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: I believe some haskell code that I still have lying around, combined with a bit of manual processing of 'cabal-plan dot' output :p |
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| 06:29:21 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: current largest win is dropping libarchive lol |
| 06:32:34 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: apparently you can drop 7 deps by dropping haskus-utils-variant-3.1 |
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| 06:40:16 | <maerwald[m]> | tomsmeding: how I unpack stuff without libarchive lol |
| 06:41:07 | <tomsmeding> | you don't, which is why I just added it to my dontblock list :p |
| 06:41:12 | <tomsmeding> | s/block/drop/ |
| 06:44:06 | <maerwald[m]> | haskus doesn't have many alternatives. Only plucky |
| 06:46:14 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald[m]: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/hOVxa3Se |
| 06:47:46 | <tomsmeding> | and the max-savings sets of size 1, 2 and 3 are thoroughly unenlightening: haskus-utils-variant, huv+brick, hub+brick+optics |
| 06:48:08 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald[m]: seems you've already removed the low-hanging fruit |
| 06:50:26 | <tomsmeding> | why does data-clist (dependency of brick) depend on QuickCheck |
| 06:51:12 | <tomsmeding> | ....... because it wants to provide instances |
| 06:51:28 | <tomsmeding> | this is a significant problem that prevents people from minimising their dependency footprint |
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| 07:07:48 | <Axman6> | This is one of the reasons popular libraries so often split into a foo-core and foo, so people can depend on just the definitons and not the whole library. it's not a simple problem to solve sadly |
| 07:08:15 | <tomsmeding> | yeah I didn't claim to have a solution :p |
| 07:09:03 | <dibblego> | nobody fixed that yet? |
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| 09:36:35 | <maerwald> | dependencies per symbol? |
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| 10:58:22 | <kuribas> | Is there an easy alternative for effect stacks? |
| 10:58:27 | <kuribas> | For example Validation over StateT. |
| 10:58:30 | <kuribas> | Maybe Just use IO and a mutable variable? |
| 10:58:51 | <kuribas> | (it's a project for haskell newbee's) |
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| 10:59:34 | <kuribas> | Or the ST monad if I want to remain pure? |
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| 12:17:24 | <dminuoso> | Over time I've become a RIO without even knowing it. In my opinion, large scale monadic transformer stacks have various problems attached to it |
| 12:17:31 | <dminuoso> | *RIO proponent |
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| 12:19:09 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: ReaderT IO for everything? |
| 12:19:14 | <kuribas> | even pure functions? |
| 12:19:56 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: Not for everything, just the parts that need IO interleaved. |
| 12:20:12 | <dminuoso> | And to be fair, I personally use `LoggingT (ReaderT Envt)` |
| 12:20:26 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: where do get LoggingT from? |
| 12:20:30 | <dminuoso> | monad-logger |
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| 12:21:48 | <dminuoso> | If I need state, I usually bury it into IORefs into the environment. |
| 12:22:02 | <dminuoso> | Though *local* uses StateT are fine and I sometimes do it |
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| 12:23:00 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: yes this is local. |
| 12:23:13 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: but also interleaved with Validation, which makes it a bit complicated... |
| 12:23:26 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: Hard to say in general. How local is local? |
| 12:23:27 | <kuribas> | hmm, StateT and validation makes no sense though... |
| 12:23:31 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: one function |
| 12:23:49 | <maerwald> | dminuoso: the reason I don't use RIO is because it doesn't have an outer ExceptT |
| 12:23:54 | <dminuoso> | You can also in principle put the validation into your state |
| 12:24:21 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: You can always through in IO |
| 12:24:24 | <dminuoso> | *throw in IO |
| 12:24:29 | <maerwald> | yeah, not the same |
| 12:24:33 | <dminuoso> | Yeah I know its not the same |
| 12:24:43 | <maerwald> | And I know that Snoyman is against ExceptT IO |
| 12:24:47 | <maerwald> | but the arguments are odd |
| 12:25:02 | <dminuoso> | Its quite interesting because over time I developed the same exact reasons as Snoyman has. |
| 12:25:05 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: so to be beginner friendly, state in IO, and throw exceptions instead of Either? |
| 12:25:15 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: What's the goal here anyway? |
| 12:25:19 | <dminuoso> | What do you intend to teach? |
| 12:25:28 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: not teach, it's a practical project |
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| 12:25:34 | <kuribas> | but should be usable by beginners. |
| 12:25:41 | <maerwald> | dminuoso: well, the arguments against ExceptT IO are the same as against `IO (Either a b)` and that's really... uh, nonsense |
| 12:25:43 | <dminuoso> | I wouldn't pick beginner readability as a concern. |
| 12:26:07 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: it's not nonsense. |
| 12:26:12 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: Oh well, I guess I meant wrt to RIO not ExceptT. :) |
| 12:26:23 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: it means I care about the "Left" result... |
| 12:26:29 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: Wrong recipient. |
| 12:26:42 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: excuse me? |
| 12:26:46 | <kuribas> | ah right :)à |
| 12:26:49 | <maerwald> | well, unless you think checked exceptions are nonsense, then yeah |
| 12:27:20 | <maerwald> | for low level libraries I agree |
| 12:27:29 | <kuribas> | maerwald: I think exceptions which are part of control flow, needs to be visible. |
| 12:27:31 | <maerwald> | I don't think e.g. `directory` should make any distinction |
| 12:27:35 | <kuribas> | And exceptions aren't very visible. |
| 12:27:36 | <dminuoso> | The main thing I dont like about ExceptT, is that it doesnt compose well on global parts of programs, because you get the same unlifting problematic |
| 12:27:47 | <maerwald> | for application layer, not having `IO (Either a b)` is insane and hard to maintain |
| 12:28:02 | <dminuoso> | If you dont mind or need MonadBaseControl, then all of this is mood, and transformers are great tools. |
| 12:28:11 | <dminuoso> | Even on larger scale |
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| 12:29:05 | <dminuoso> | To me, there's no obviously correct way to even implement MoandBaseControl that doesn't surprise you in the presence of exceptions and bracket. |
| 12:30:16 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: Mmm, I dont mind `IO (Either a b)`, but hierarchial exceptions can get the job done too |
| 12:30:35 | <dminuoso> | But bizarrely hierarchial exceptions appears to have become a forgotten art if I look at source code on hackage a lot. |
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| 12:33:08 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Word |
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| 12:59:32 | <arjun> | hi, i've installed ghc 9.2-rc1 on my aarch64 chromebook, ghc itself works, but i can't seem to build packages with it (it always errors in cabal install step), is this to be expected since it's so new and an rc ? |
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| 13:00:16 | <maerwald> | what's the error |
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| 13:01:23 | <merijn> | arjun: It could also be packages not supporting 9.2 yet |
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| 13:04:10 | <arjun> | oh, hi maerwald |
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| 13:04:45 | <arjun> | here's the error: https://pastebin.com/tLQkS5s4 |
| 13:05:02 | <arjun> | merijn: i guess |
| 13:05:32 | <maerwald> | arjun: https://github.com/lpsmith/blaze-builder/issues/23 |
| 13:06:00 | <maerwald> | there's a patch |
| 13:06:14 | <maerwald> | but the maintainer isn't responding |
| 13:07:06 | <merijn> | arjun: Yeah, that's just a package not supporting 9.2 |
| 13:07:16 | <merijn> | maerwald: blaze-builder was handed over yesterday or the day before |
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| 13:08:01 | <merijn> | Or was that a different package...I thought blaze-builder was the bos one |
| 13:08:25 | <maerwald> | you can try an NMU, but I've had no success with them lately either |
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| 13:08:38 | <arjun> | merijn: maerwald i've tried building 3 different projects, one thing or the other errored in each of them |
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| 13:09:01 | <arjun> | should i be documenting these ? or just, wait? |
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| 13:10:08 | <merijn> | arjun: 9.2 isn't officially released, afaict, and it's not weird for it to took 1-2 months before the biggest packages support a new version (let alone the long tail) |
| 13:10:19 | <merijn> | arjun: You can certainly make issues (and patches!) |
| 13:11:25 | <maerwald> | and then see them bitrot :D |
| 13:11:47 | <arjun> | merijn: even cabal warns me it thinks the ghc is too new, it only supports < 9.1 or somethin |
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| 13:13:26 | <arjun> | maerwald: i'll start with ghcup 3:D |
| 13:14:00 | <maerwald> | you can use patches by specifying the PR branch via source-repository-package |
| 13:14:07 | <maerwald> | in cabal.project |
| 13:14:20 | <maerwald> | only downside is, you can't upload your package to hackage that way |
| 13:14:33 | <maerwald> | I feel we need a solution to that |
| 13:14:48 | <maerwald> | I can't be bothered to fix 5+ upstream packages before I can upload something to hackage |
| 13:16:12 | <maerwald> | even if it's just some beta-marked version or whatever |
| 13:16:18 | <shapr> | Is there a process for non-maintainers to jump in and fix things for new GHC releases? |
| 13:16:35 | <maerwald> | they have a patch branch I think |
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| 13:17:15 | <maerwald> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/head.hackage |
| 13:17:54 | <arjun> | i think the maintainers of the big packages (by some criteria) should be intimated before releases |
| 13:18:31 | <arjun> | "hey, we're releasing a new ghc, your package is used a lot, would you like to update it?" |
| 13:18:52 | <merijn> | I think maintainers should do whatever the fuck they want |
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| 13:19:19 | <merijn> | Open source is free-as-in-puppies |
| 13:20:02 | <maerwald> | arjun: hackage could be extended to have some form of email-notification or even global bugtracker, but a) not sure that would fix anything and b) you'd have to go through months of bikeshedding |
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| 13:23:31 | <arjun> | merijn: i hear you, but when some packages get too dependent upon, i think there should be some checks somewhere. for eg. imagine if the flask or scikit-learn didn't support new python versions? |
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| 13:24:04 | <merijn> | arjun: I don't have to imagine |
| 13:24:16 | <merijn> | Took me months to port my scikit-learn code to newer python |
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| 13:27:21 | <arjun> | maerwald: right. |
| 13:28:16 | <arjun> | merijn: i wonder what they'll break in 4.0 |
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| 13:28:55 | <merijn> | The world >.> |
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| 13:30:51 | <Lycurgus> | 9 has some dependent type thing doesn't it? that's the big deal? |
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| 13:32:20 | <yushyin> | linear types |
| 13:32:26 | <Lycurgus> | ah |
| 13:32:46 | <arjun> | and a native code generator for arm64 |
| 13:34:02 | <merijn> | 8.10.7 also has native code for arm64, no? Or am I misremembering |
| 13:34:25 | <maerwald> | don't think so |
| 13:35:29 | <wz1000> | merijn: no, it goes via LLVM |
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| 13:37:45 | <wz1000> | The native code gen is only in 9.2 I think |
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| 13:40:41 | <merijn> | Ah, could be |
| 13:41:22 | <maerwald> | is there any editor that allows grab and drag scrolling with mouse? |
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| 14:05:19 | <carbolymer> | Is there any difference if I replace all forM_ with for_ ? |
| 14:05:36 | <merijn> | :t forM_ |
| 14:05:37 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t, Monad m) => t a -> (a -> m b) -> m () |
| 14:05:38 | <merijn> | :t for_ |
| 14:05:39 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t, Applicative f) => t a -> (a -> f b) -> f () |
| 14:05:44 | <merijn> | No |
| 14:05:55 | <carbolymer> | that's what I thought |
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| 14:06:01 | <carbolymer> | So why forM_ exists |
| 14:06:24 | <merijn> | because it's older |
| 14:06:47 | <carbolymer> | rejectr tradition, embrace modern APIs |
| 14:06:47 | <merijn> | forM_ dates back to Applicative not being a superclass of Monad, so for_ wouldn't work on all monads |
| 14:07:00 | <merijn> | Also, originally forM_ was just lists, not Foldable |
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| 14:09:14 | <carbolymer> | ok, thanks |
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| 14:15:05 | <tomsmeding> | same with liftM/liftA/fmap I guess? |
| 14:15:11 | <merijn> | Yes |
| 14:15:54 | <tomsmeding> | :t traverse_ |
| 14:15:56 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f () |
| 14:16:03 | <tomsmeding> | which is flip for_ :p |
| 14:16:16 | <carbolymer> | Actually it's the opposite :p |
| 14:16:40 | <tomsmeding> | sure |
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| 16:15:39 | <mjrosenb> | things that I did not quite expect, partial list |
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| 16:17:12 | <mjrosenb> | Prelude Control.Lens Data.Array> let x = array (1,3) Empty in bounds x |
| 16:17:14 | <mjrosenb> | (1,3) |
| 16:17:41 | <mjrosenb> | I did not expect this to typecheck |
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| 16:19:58 | <[exa]> | mjrosenb: why not? |
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| 16:47:46 | <mjrosenb> | because Empty is a weird value from lens, I would not expect it to be a list |
| 16:47:57 | <mjrosenb> | which array wants in its second argument |
| 16:49:17 | <napping> | Is it a weird value that tries to act as an empty version of whatever you are using it as? |
| 16:50:57 | <mjrosenb> | it is defined as a Pattern |
| 16:51:07 | <mjrosenb> | I have no clue what it means when you try to use it as a value |
| 16:51:28 | <monochrom> | And what is the pattern definition? |
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| 16:51:54 | <monochrom> | If you keep rewriting by definitions you may eventually get [] and understand. |
| 16:52:39 | <mjrosenb> | pattern Empty <- (has _Empty -> True) where Empty = review _Empty () |
| 16:52:49 | <mjrosenb> | so, I guess review means that it returns a list? |
| 16:53:30 | <napping> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.0.1/docs/Control-Lens-Empty.html |
| 16:53:42 | <napping> | just says "pattern Empty :: AsEmpty s => s" |
| 16:57:05 | <mjrosenb> | napping: did you click on the source link? |
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| 16:58:06 | <napping> | I meant you don't really need to look at the source to see that the type as an expression is any s which has (AsEmpty s), and there's an instance of AsEmpty for lists |
| 16:58:24 | <napping> | on a prism, review :: Prism' a b -> b -> a |
| 16:58:57 | <napping> | and the method of AsEmpty s is an _Empty :: Prism' s () |
| 16:59:40 | <napping> | so review _Empty () is returning whatever s gets mapped onto () by the _Empty in the relevant AsEmpty instance |
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| 17:01:51 | <napping> | Source for instance AsEmpty [a] is _Empty = nearly [] Prelude.null |
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| 17:13:52 | <mjrosenb> | so, I'm getting "(Array.!): undefined array element", and am trying to figure out what on earth is wrong. |
| 17:15:34 | <mjrosenb> | I just implemented a new Array module, which has all of the same functions as Array, but wraps (!), array, listArray and assocArray, and should evaluate to (error "better message") if they *would* give that. |
| 17:15:52 | <mjrosenb> | but I'm still getting that unhelpful error :-( |
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| 17:17:03 | <monochrom> | If you're giving the empty list to array, this is expected. |
| 17:17:41 | <monochrom> | Either that, or the vanilla index-out-of-bounds error. |
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| 17:18:26 | <monochrom> | Pro tip: In C, your program continues to run without error messages! |
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| 17:21:38 | <mjrosenb> | yes, I fixed that. but I *believe* I'm not checking every instance where I could create an array with an undefined element |
| 17:21:54 | <mjrosenb> | s/not/now/ |
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| 17:25:53 | <tomsmeding> | mjrosenb: how long is the code of your Array wrapper which is supposed to prevent that error from occurring? Can you post it? |
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| 17:26:57 | <hseg> | a little confusion: Given an instance (C a, ...) => D b, why does GHC complain it can't deduce C a from a type signature having D b in the context? |
| 17:28:42 | <hseg> | eg: why is (compare :: Ord [a] => a -> a -> Ordering) forbidden? |
| 17:28:51 | <napping> | It can't assume that's the only possible instance of D. If it was on the class declaration itself, like class (C a, ...) => D a, then it would deduce C a from having D in scope |
| 17:30:20 | <hseg> | even though that's the only possible instance for D to choose here presuming confluence? |
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| 17:31:46 | <hseg> | I mean, in my case I have newtype SortedList a, newtype Part f a ~ f a, both with ord instances, and effectively want to write Ord (SortedList (Part NonEmpty a)) in the context |
| 17:32:03 | <hseg> | and have the context of the Ord (Part f a) instance be pulled in |
| 17:32:25 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) (Error from remote client) |
| 17:32:58 | <hseg> | ... so unless there's some interaction from OverlappableInstances, I see no reason why my usecase should be forbidden |
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| 17:33:17 | <mjrosenb> | tomsmeding: https://gist.github.com/mjrosenb/3c4e326348ada6232318e5dd4c3e1f5d |
| 17:33:25 | <hseg> | (want to write the more constrained context for documentation purposes -- it makes it clearer what forces the constraint here) |
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| 17:34:01 | <napping> | Hmm, that's more interesting. |
| 17:35:17 | <napping> | OverlappingInstances does make it unsound in general. If you assume you don't have it it's a valid deduction |
| 17:35:37 | <napping> | But also it would be hard to implement - the (Ord [a]) constraint just passes a dictionary implementing Ord for [a] |
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| 17:36:18 | <hseg> | sure, but the Ord [a] dictionary has access to the Ord a dictionary |
| 17:36:21 | <napping> | Perhaps if you know the exact layout you could dig through the closure of those methods to find a dictionary |
| 17:36:29 | <hseg> | so it would be a matter of projecting that out |
| 17:36:30 | <mjrosenb> | oh... |
| 17:36:34 | <mjrosenb> | I'm a fool |
| 17:36:40 | <hseg> | which admittedly might incur a performance penalty |
| 17:36:42 | <napping> | It was defined using it, but doesn't expose it in any way that's easy to get |
| 17:36:58 | <mjrosenb> | and I've been using `cabal build`, while I'm testing with the output from `cabal new-build` |
| 17:37:21 | <napping> | like, define f :: Int -> Int = (+) 1, then having something that you just pass `f` dig out the 1 is tricky |
| 17:37:25 | <tomsmeding> | mjrosenb: listArray (0, 0) [undefined] ! 0 |
| 17:37:33 | <hseg> | hrm. ah yes, ig the construction of the Ord [a] dictionary will inline stuff from the Ord a dictionary |
| 17:37:44 | <tomsmeding> | mjrosenb: get a newer cabal such that build and new-build are the same thing :p |
| 17:37:51 | <tomsmeding> | i.e. cabal version >= 3 |
| 17:38:02 | <hseg> | much more efficient than storing an Ord a dictionary and redirecting |
| 17:38:06 | <hseg> | dammit |
| 17:38:09 | <dminuoso> | 19:28:42 hseg | eg: why is (compare :: Ord [a] => a -> a -> Ordering) forbidden? |
| 17:38:15 | <mjrosenb> | tomsmeding: that is easier said than done. |
| 17:38:37 | <dminuoso> | hseg: Wouldn't the potential presence of overlapping instances prevent that? |
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| 17:38:57 | <mjrosenb> | tomsmeding: I think that will produce a different error. |
| 17:39:08 | <hseg> | yes, already addressed - am restricting my ask to non-overlappable instances |
| 17:39:42 | <hseg> | which considering OverlappingInstances is deprecated in favor of per-instance pragmas, is a more useful ask |
| 17:39:47 | <tomsmeding> | mjrosenb: hm you're right |
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| 17:40:58 | <dminuoso> | Mmm what did I miss. per-instance pragmas? |
| 17:41:03 | <mjrosenb> | ok, so for using new-build, I'm running into an issue where it can't find my source files. I'm pretty sure this used to work, but I haven't actually touched this project in ~1 year |
| 17:41:24 | <mjrosenb> | fwiw, it also says it can't find LICENSE, despite that being in the same directory as the cabal file. |
| 17:41:40 | <hseg> | https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/instances.html#overlapping-instances -- note OVERLAPPABLE/OVERLAPPING pragmas are prefered over OI language exts |
| 17:41:42 | <dminuoso> | hseg: The thing is, putting the constraint on a declaration gives no power of what potential overlapping instance (via per-instance pragma) might have been created in some other module. |
| 17:42:00 | <dminuoso> | We can't just pretend it doesnt exist |
| 17:42:18 | <hseg> | hrm, that's also fair |
| 17:42:41 | <hseg> | you'd need to somehow presume sth about the instance... |
| 17:43:17 | <hseg> | probably another case of sth I want not reasonably supportable by GHC, but implementable in TH |
| 17:43:17 | <dminuoso> | I think to make deducing Ord a from Ord [a] valid, you'd have to first completely forbid overlapping instances in the compiler |
| 17:43:52 | <tomsmeding> | mjrosenb: post .cabal and output of `tree` :p |
| 17:44:04 | <mjrosenb> | oh, maybe I just needed to run `cabal new-configure` |
| 17:44:05 | <dminuoso> | And IncoherentInstances too I suppose. |
| 17:44:13 | <tomsmeding> | or, well, tree -I dist |
| 17:44:21 | <hseg> | you'd want sth like $([|ty|] `generalizeAssuming` [|ctx => ctx'|]) |
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| 17:45:01 | <hseg> | dminuoso: yeah -- the only way my ask is reasonable is if you have access to the instance at the declaration site |
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| 17:45:12 | <hseg> | which you cannot really ensure |
| 17:45:19 | <dminuoso> | I mean in principle you could |
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| 17:45:31 | <hseg> | a moment, brb |
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| 17:46:21 | <dminuoso> | But it would make haskell libraries an impossibility. |
| 17:46:44 | <dminuoso> | GHC would have to compile the entire transitive dependency closure for each compilation in one go |
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| 17:48:26 | <dminuoso> | Bonus points here: if libraries or modules are no longer separately compiled, we could have true circular imports! |
| 17:49:32 | <monochrom> | https://xkcd.com/303/ |
| 17:50:04 | tomsmeding | pleads to not make compilation of haskell code 3 orders of magnitude slower than it already is |
| 17:50:04 | <monochrom> | Historical note: Sandboxing almost got there. All the cost and none of the benefits! |
| 17:50:18 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Im guessing you dont get paid to write Haskell? :-P |
| 17:50:23 | <dminuoso> | /s |
| 17:50:31 | <tomsmeding> | I am, actually! Kind of |
| 17:50:42 | <dminuoso> | Presumably not by the hour, then. |
| 17:50:46 | <tomsmeding> | if getting paid to do phd research using haskell counts |
| 17:50:48 | <dminuoso> | Heh |
| 17:51:14 | <tomsmeding> | but I'd like to actually accomplish something in that time :p |
| 17:51:17 | <monochrom> | Yeah, that "deadline in 6 years" puts a cap on compile time. |
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| 17:52:02 | <monochrom> | Good thing I chose to do a theoretical PhD though. The only "compile time" I suffered was pdflatex. |
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| 17:52:52 | <monochrom> | But I'm always fond of reminding people: Use Hugs to reduce compile time! |
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| 17:52:59 | <tomsmeding> | I've spent the past couple of days in my editor with just HLS for feedback; I haven't even made a .cabal file yet |
| 17:53:07 | <tomsmeding> | so not sure how practical this really is at the moment :) |
| 17:53:44 | <dminuoso> | 6 years? |
| 17:53:56 | <dminuoso> | That's quite.. long. |
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| 17:54:50 | <monochrom> | Oh you know us PhD procrastinators. |
| 17:55:22 | <monochrom> | I got close to "tenured grad student". |
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| 17:56:54 | <mjrosenb> | tomsmeding: I take that back; I have no clue why cabal new-build doesn't work |
| 17:56:57 | <mjrosenb> | tomsmeding: https://gist.github.com/mjrosenb/8b55d33a3ac657dbb94733ff0aa72a0e |
| 17:57:47 | <tomsmeding> | mjrosenb: rm -rf dist-newstyle; cabal new-build |
| 17:57:49 | <mjrosenb> | tomsmeding: and I just added the output of `cabal new-build` |
| 17:58:00 | <tomsmeding> | oh nix as well, good luck with that :p |
| 17:58:53 | <mjrosenb> | https://gist.github.com/mjrosenb/a4f3fae960bcadf38b12b479da6b3fb5 -- new output |
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| 17:59:04 | <mjrosenb> | tomsmeding: I know of no other way of using miso :-( |
| 18:00:06 | <tomsmeding> | mjrosenb: I'm 99% sure the problem is that cabal looks in the directory of the .cabal file for the project, while in your case it's one directory up |
| 18:00:19 | <tomsmeding> | I assume cabal.project.local just contains something like 'packages: hackage' ? |
| 18:00:29 | <tomsmeding> | OH ignore |
| 18:00:34 | <tomsmeding> | I missed the match-rex.cabal in / |
| 18:00:44 | <tomsmeding> | ok what does cabal.project.local contain :p |
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| 18:02:33 | <elf_fortrez> | and here you go chasing rabbits, when you you are going to fall - Jefferson Airplane |
| 18:03:21 | <mjrosenb> | [nix-shell:~/projects/match-rex]$ cat cabal.project.local |
| 18:03:22 | <mjrosenb> | compiler: ghcjs |
| 18:03:29 | <tomsmeding> | oh |
| 18:03:37 | <tomsmeding> | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 18:03:39 | <tomsmeding> | I blame ghcjs |
| 18:03:58 | <hseg> | dminuoso: yeah, not worth the tradeoff. will just add a note in the haddock |
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| 18:04:24 | <mjrosenb> | but cabal build works :-( |
| 18:08:37 | <tomsmeding> | mjrosenb: strace -o log.txt cabal new-build; grep src log.txt |
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| 18:12:13 | <hseg> | ok, thanks! |
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| 18:16:59 | <mjrosenb> | tomsmeding: want another monkey wrench? this is MacOS, so no strace (and I have yet to figure out how to use dtrace) |
| 18:17:09 | <tomsmeding> | lol |
| 18:17:26 | <tomsmeding> | dtruss is _supposed_ to work but I've only had trouble with it when I was on macos |
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| 18:19:11 | <tomsmeding> | mjrosenb: I guess 'dtruss cabal new-build >log.txt 2>&1' |
| 18:21:15 | <mjrosenb> | yeah, looks like I need to reboot in order to be able to run dtruss |
| 18:21:24 | <mjrosenb> | I'll try that later today. |
| 18:21:29 | <tomsmeding> | ._. |
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| 19:38:06 | <hseg> | just realized I could do the "use the more restricted type for documentation" thing without any TH or GHC hacking, just need a benign UndecideableSuperClasses: |
| 19:39:07 | <hseg> | just create a constraint synonym (i.e. class c x => h x instance c x => h x) establishing (c => d, c) ~ (c `NeededFor` d) |
| 19:39:35 | <hseg> | and then you can say foo :: (Ord a `NeededFor` Ord [a]) => ... or whatever |
| 19:39:54 | <hseg> | so in my case, Monoid a `NeededFor` Ord (Parts a) |
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| 20:07:11 | <carbolymer> | are out there any shake alternatives? |
| 20:10:15 | <maerwald> | carbolymer: https://github.com/ollef/rock |
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| 20:15:24 | <carbolymer> | maerwald: looks more low-level, thanks |
| 20:15:41 | <maerwald> | or that? https://github.com/judah/pier |
| 20:16:13 | <maerwald> | I like the goal of invoking ghc directly |
| 20:16:40 | <carbolymer> | maerwald: pier looks more like stack alternative, I'm looking more for general purpose task runner with make features |
| 20:16:54 | <maerwald> | that's rock |
| 20:18:04 | <adamse> | carbolymer: what's the use case? |
| 20:20:27 | <janus> | carbolymer: have you read the 'build systems a la carte' paper? |
| 20:20:55 | <carbolymer> | adamse: hard to tell... generic task execution basic on environment and command line arguments I guess? I'm just tired of bash and Makefile, where any more complex handling of variables, states, background jobs becomes a PITA |
| 20:21:13 | <carbolymer> | s/basic/based/ |
| 20:21:27 | <carbolymer> | janus: nope, I assume you recommend that? :) |
| 20:22:04 | <janus> | carbolymer: well you don't really need to read all of it but it is interesting how it categorizes build systems, i think that is worth checking out |
| 20:22:17 | <carbolymer> | will do then |
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| 20:22:44 | <janus> | and given that you mentioned shake, the paper motivates shake, i think. so given that you don't think shake is right, maybe the paper will tell you what you want |
| 20:22:49 | <adamse> | carbolymer: shake's pretty good for that |
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| 20:23:39 | <adamse> | though i dunno about background jobs etc |
| 20:23:46 | <adamse> | sounds like a jobscheduler thing |
| 20:26:05 | <maerwald> | shake is monadic though, so there's no static analysis of rules |
| 20:27:40 | tomsmeding | thinks that rock example in its readme also looks pretty monadic |
| 20:27:55 | <maerwald> | I think dune isn't monadic |
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| 20:35:17 | <maerwald> | https://neilmitchell.blogspot.com/2019/10/monads-as-graphs.html |
| 20:35:21 | <maerwald> | ah, Dune is selective |
| 20:35:34 | <maerwald> | Make is applicative |
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| 20:41:27 | <carbolymer> | adamse: probably, I'm just looking around what else is available |
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| 20:55:19 | <sm> | carbolymer: i'm another using shake for that. it's definitely nice to have all of haskell instead of make and bash.. for certain things. bash still wins for some ! |
| 20:56:00 | <sm> | so in practice I still use all three :/ |
| 20:56:55 | <carbolymer> | sm: well, bash still has its place, it is just not the best tool for writing bigger scripts |
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| 21:00:31 | <sm> | lately I wonder when it's right to extract bits of the growing shake file into standalone scripts. |
| 21:01:32 | <maerwald> | carbolymer: you're right, for bigger scripts I use posix shell |
| 21:03:01 | <carbolymer> | maerwald: ...but why |
| 21:03:27 | <maerwald> | it's the perfect language for prototyping |
| 21:03:54 | <sm> | when artifacts are involved, it's nice to have shake's dependency engine for efficiency. But its state is per directory I think - not easy to use two sepearate shake scripts in the same directory. perhaps there's a trick, but it's not the default |
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| 23:30:11 | <Guest2602> | Constraint solving library for a beginner? |
| 23:30:26 | <Guest2602> | So far, I'm aware of Holmes (backed by propagators) |
| 23:31:50 | <Guest2602> | Or is it best to implement ad hoc SLD resolution via the List monad and do the rest from scratch as if it were Prolog? |
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| 23:41:46 | <arahael> | out of curiosity, does ghc have a way to test for physical equality? (for writing optimised code) |
| 23:42:17 | <arahael> | eg, no need to re-render a data structure if it is the same object as a previous structure. |
| 23:43:44 | <davean> | arahael: isn't htat safeCoerve? |
| 23:43:57 | <davean> | *safe coerce |
| 23:46:33 | <monochrom> | GHC.Prim.reallyUnsafePtrEquality# |
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| 23:47:18 | <monochrom> | "Warning: this can fail with an unchecked exception." |
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| 23:53:01 | <arahael> | davean: will check that out! |
| 23:53:14 | <arahael> | monochrom: can that be caught? |
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| 23:56:42 | <arahael> | davean: how would i use unsafeCoerce in this way? |
| 23:58:22 | <davean> | I didn't say unsafe, I said safe |
| 23:58:42 | <davean> | The representation is the same |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-08-31.