Logs on 2021-09-09 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:05:07	<ldlework>	What's that trick for looking up all functions of the same type?
00:05:11	<ldlework>	@hoogle (a -> b -> b) -> a -> b
00:05:12	<lambdabot>	No results found
00:05:36	<Axman6>	@djinn (a -> b -> b) -> a -> b
00:05:37	<lambdabot>	-- f cannot be realized.
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00:06:57	<iqubic>	ldlework: hoogle is the right tool to use. But it looks like there aren't any functons of that type.
00:07:04	<ldlework>	I see
00:07:32	<ldlework>	@hoogle (a -> b -> (a, b)) -> a -> b
00:07:33	<lambdabot>	No results found
00:07:33	<geekosaur>	how would that function work?
00:08:02	<iqubic>	Which actually makes sense, because there's no way to get a value of type `b` to return. The only way to possibly get a `b`, is to use the first function, but that requires you to have `b` in the first place.
00:08:04	<Axman6>	:t \f a -> let q = f a q in q
00:08:05	<lambdabot>	(t1 -> t2 -> t2) -> t1 -> t2
00:08:12	<Axman6>	nailed it!
00:08:56	<Axman6>	see above :)
00:09:23	<iqubic>	Oh, hey, that's like fix, but you're passing in the same 'a' as input to the function 'f' in each call.
00:09:26	<Axman6>	> let foo = \f a -> let q = f a q in q in foo (1:)
00:09:27	<lambdabot>	error:
00:09:27	<lambdabot>	• Couldn't match type ‘[a]’ with ‘t -> t’
00:09:27	<lambdabot>	Expected type: [a] -> t -> t
00:09:35	<Axman6>	> let foo = \f a -> let q = f a q in q in foo (:) 1
00:09:37	<lambdabot>	[1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...
00:09:56	<Axman6>	not only does it exist, it may actually be useful!
00:10:00	<iqubic>	> fix (:1)
00:10:03	<lambdabot>	error:
00:10:03	<lambdabot>	• Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a ~ [a]
00:10:03	<lambdabot>	Expected type: [a] -> [a]
00:10:07	<iqubic>	:t fix
00:10:07	<Axman6>	For some definition of useful
00:10:08	<lambdabot>	(a -> a) -> a
00:10:17	<Axman6>	you want (1:)
00:10:27	<iqubic>	> fix (1:)
00:10:28	<lambdabot>	[1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...
00:10:50	<Axman6>	> let foo = \f a -> let q = f a q in q in foo (\x xs -> x: map (+1) xs) 1
00:10:52	<lambdabot>	[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,...
00:11:25	<iqubic>	@let foo = \f a -> let q = f a q in q
00:11:26	<lambdabot>	Defined.
00:11:44	<iqubic>	foo (\x xs -> x: map (+1) xs) 1
00:11:52	<iqubic>	> foo (\x xs -> x: map (+1) xs) 1
00:11:54	<lambdabot>	[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,...
00:11:58	<iqubic>	There we are.
00:12:28	<Axman6>	:t \f a = fix (f a)
00:12:29	<lambdabot>	error: parse error on input ‘=’
00:12:35	<Axman6>	:t \f a -> fix (f a)
00:12:36	<lambdabot>	(t -> a -> a) -> t -> a
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00:15:34	<iqubic>	> head $ foo (\x xs -> x: map (+1) xs) 1
00:15:36	<lambdabot>	1
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00:20:54	<iqubic>	awpr: Actually, it turns out that there's just a backwards function in Lens. So I can just use the traversal of "backwards bits" to run it backwards for me.
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00:21:41	<awpr>	iqubic: oh neat, I was thinking it'd be a nice thing to have in lens. good to know it's already there
00:22:27	<iqubic>	And the implementation is basically a more optimized version of exactly what you suggested.
00:22:40	<awpr>	yep, was just typing that :)
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01:30:12	<ryantrinkle>	has anyone had an issue with lsp-mode in emacs where the first file works just fine with LSP, but any files opened later don't?
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01:42:48	<iqubic>	Not for me.
01:43:17	<iqubic>	I use lsp-mode with haskell and it works fine.
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02:19:36	<[itchyjunk]>	Hello
02:20:06	<[itchyjunk]>	I am a noob but i watched a video on monad and it just felt like a bunch of if else...
02:20:51	<[itchyjunk]>	is that what is happening mostly? if its integer do stuff, if not do nothing
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02:22:43	<awpr>	that sounds a bit like the Monad instance of the Maybe type specifically; I suppose you could view that instance as a huge nested chain of if/else at each step, but that's an observation about Maybe, and not about the nature of Monad.
02:23:01	<awpr>	(or Either, I suppose)
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02:24:09	<[itchyjunk]>	Ah the computerphile video i watched did do the maybe just stuff as the example
02:24:36	<[itchyjunk]>	Guess i'll have to find more examples to grasp what these elusive monads are!
02:25:41	<awpr>	if you're picturing the Maybe case as a big nested if/else chain, then the (>>=) operation is about finding the innermost value at the bottom of that chain, and grafting one more if/else onto it. other Monads have "something else" in place of the if/else in that same kind of structure
02:26:49	<enikar>	anyway, you have to learn and play with several monads. Each monads have specific defintion of the bind opertator (>>=).
02:28:35	<awpr>	actually I guess I should have said "grafting some number of further if/elses onto it" -- it could be zero in the case of return, or many in the case of lots of >>=s
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02:30:43	<[itchyjunk]>	hmm
02:31:05	<monochrom>	The list monad would look like "just infinitely many if else" if you were to trivialize it.
02:31:53	<monochrom>	At which point, all of programming is just infinitely many if else.
02:31:57	<[itchyjunk]>	hmm, monads satisfy identity and associativity law?
02:32:05	<[itchyjunk]>	its a category of some sort?
02:32:40	<[itchyjunk]>	programming does have a lot of if else
02:32:59	<[itchyjunk]>	oh apparently it is category, not that i know much about it
02:33:00	<awpr>	good observation, the arrows of the form "a -> m b" form a category for any Monad; it's called the Kleisli category of m
02:33:47	<[itchyjunk]>	neat!
02:34:00	<awpr>	and being a Monad is (from some perspective) exactly about the fact that you can take two of those Kleisli arrows and compose them
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02:36:25	<Axman6>	[itchyjunk]: I quite like this article for getting an understanding of what monads actually are: https://codon.com/refactoring-ruby-with-monads it shows how several seemingly very different operations all follow the same patterns
02:37:17	<Axman6>	I will probably be slapped for sharing it, but it's one of the better ones for demonstrating the "feel" for monads with an arguably more familliar syntax for most
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02:39:22	<[itchyjunk]>	I know very little programming/computer/math though.
02:39:24	[itchyjunk]	reads it
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02:39:55	<Axman6>	The quick summary is that nullable values, lists and futures all commonly use a very similar pattern, which has the mathematical name "monad", but that name scares people
02:40:24	<Axman6>	So when people say they don't understand monads, if they do any programming, they are almost guaranteed to be using them, in several different ways, every time they write code
02:40:37	<hrnz>	when in doubt, always say "this is a category"
02:40:44	<hrnz>	you're almost never wrong.
02:41:00	<[itchyjunk]>	is almost a monad?
02:41:42	<Axman6>	https://imgflip.com/i/5mcc4n
02:43:06	<[itchyjunk]>	hmm the above comment about being able to compose the Kleisli category
02:43:19	<[itchyjunk]>	doesn't this change the "type" of the things being worked on?
02:44:03	<Axman6>	`Kliesli m a b` is just a fancy way of saying `a -> m b`
02:45:23	<awpr>	sure, Monads are perfectly capable of progressing through multiple intermediate types along the way, that's what `(>>=) :: Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b` says
02:46:02	<awpr>	looking at it in terms of Kleisli arrows, there's just an extra argument that gets plumbed around
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02:46:30	<awpr>	:t (>=>)
02:46:31	<lambdabot>	Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
02:47:10	<Axman6>	% :t Cointrol.Category.(.) @Kliesli
02:47:10	<yahb>	Axman6: ; <interactive>:1:1: error:; Not in scope: data constructor `Cointrol.Category'; No module named `Cointrol' is imported.; <interactive>:1:24: error: Not in scope: type constructor or class `Kliesli'
02:47:23	<Axman6>	% :t Control.Category.(.) @Kleisli
02:47:23	<yahb>	Axman6: ; <interactive>:1:1: error:; Not in scope: data constructor `Control.Category'; No module named `Control' is imported.; <interactive>:1:23: error: Not in scope: type constructor or class `Kleisli'
02:47:45	<awpr>	parens around the fully-qualified name I think
02:47:47	<[itchyjunk]>	hmm, so read that
02:47:49	<geekosaur>	yes
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02:49:55	<[itchyjunk]>	(>>=) is being defined as? (::) m of type Monad has the value (=>) m takes a and mapts it to the type (a -> m b) err
02:50:13	<[itchyjunk]>	i am not good at reading this :(
02:51:53	<Axman6>	I am struggling to make any sense of that sentense :(
02:51:56	<xsperry>	Axman6, I think the disadvatage of using a language like ruby (no higher kinded types, no syntactic sugar like do) to demonstrate monads, is that the logical reaction will be "great, but what's the point?"
02:52:34	<[itchyjunk]>	ah let me use a few more lines then
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02:52:45	<[itchyjunk]>	i am tring to read this (>>=) :: Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
02:53:07	<awpr>	the key part to see is that you start with `m a` and end up with `m b`, i.e. the type evolves in accordance with the `a -> m b` function you passed in
02:53:19	<[itchyjunk]>	(>>=) :: Monad m => this is saying (>>=) is defined as (::) m of the type Monad has the value (=>)
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02:53:27	<Axman6>	Well, I think the next logical step is to then say "We can abstract algforithms over anything which can do that, what if you have a list of nullable values that you need to do something with if they are all not null? Or a list of futures that you want to do something with all the results? that's jusy mapM"
02:53:29	<monochrom>	Huh, I recommend learning basic Haskell first, if you don't even know what "foo :: bar" is stating.
02:53:36	<Axman6>	% :t mapM @[]
02:53:36	<yahb>	Axman6: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
02:53:41	<[itchyjunk]>	right, the type evolved!
02:53:58	<monochrom>	Either that or you will have to study monads outside the context of Haskell.
02:54:36	<Axman6>	[itchyjunk]: no... (>>=) :: Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b says: (>>=) has type m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b for any m which is an instance of the Monad type class
02:54:58	<Axman6>	it's (>>=) :: (Monad m) => (m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b)
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02:56:08	<[itchyjunk]>	oh
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03:00:49	<roboguy_>	% :t (<=<)
03:00:49	<yahb>	roboguy_: ; <interactive>:1:1: error:; * Variable not in scope: <=<; * Perhaps you meant one of these: `=<<' (imported from Prelude), `<=' (imported from Prelude), `<<=' (imported from Control.Comonad)
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03:01:08	<roboguy_>	% :t (Control.Monad.<=<)
03:01:08	<yahb>	roboguy_: Monad m => (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> a -> m c
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03:01:30	<roboguy_>	[itchyjunk]: ^ that is what does monadic composition
03:02:00	<roboguy_>	ah, someone already mentioned it
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03:03:27	<roboguy_>	it might also be worth mentioning that the type also "changes" in standard function composition
03:04:04	<roboguy_>	:t (.)
03:04:05	<lambdabot>	(b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
03:05:57	<roboguy_>	[itchyjunk]: it might help to compare the type of (=<<) (which is just (>>=) with its arguments flipped around) to the type of the function application operator ($)
03:06:24	<[itchyjunk]>	thanks! i'll start working on some of my basics again. this should help me with trying to learn Coq too. there i noticed the type of a theorm is it's entire proof which seemed simimlar to what happened with the type of >>= i think
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03:28:34	<justsomeguy>	Are purely functional programming languages also by necessity declarative? Is Haskell declarative?
03:33:40	<[itchyjunk]>	based on what ive read haskell is declarative
03:34:25	<[itchyjunk]>	whatever a function evaluates last is the value of that function or somesuch?
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03:35:52	<dibblego>	is 2 + 2 declarative?
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03:36:31	<jle`>	justsomeguy: it's sort of a loaded question to ask if a "language" is declarative, but haskell does make declarative programming easy under some common definitions of declarative programming
03:37:12	<jle`>	but haskell does make imperative programming pretty easy too
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03:49:04	<roboguy_>	it usually feels to me like it's hard to give a specific, concrete definition of "declarative" that will satisfy most people. Maybe there's one I'm missing, though
03:49:41	<justsomeguy>	I've gone back and forth on the issue a few times. I think I should probably collect a bunch of examples of Haskell code where I had or did not have to think about the control flow.
03:51:57	<roboguy_>	is thinking about control flow fundamentally non-declarative?
03:53:26	<justsomeguy>	Wikipedia says "In computer science, declarative programming is a programming paradigm—a style of building the structure and elements of computer programs—that expresses the logic of a computation without describing its control flow." I'm not sure if that makes sense, though.
03:54:21	<justsomeguy>	I've seen a few conflicting definitions of declarative programming in the wild.
03:56:02	<roboguy_>	hmm, could make sense. I think I see the point of that definition, but I'm not fully sure. I don't really think I know the answer to my question
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03:59:15	<jle`>	even if we agreed on a definition for the sake of this discussion, "is haskell declarative" is still tricky to answer. esp if you consider declarative as the "opposite" of imperative, in which case haskell is pretty well-suited for both, and most of the haskell code i wrote is imperative
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04:00:14	<jle`>	*write
04:01:24	<jle`>	conal elliot has a nice term that i think may be more useful -- "denotative programming", where a program is assembled from pure functions on simple units of meaning with well-defined ways they combine
04:01:45	<ldlework>	I am recently learning Haskell and FP; Is there a better design for this kind of thing?
04:01:46	<ldlework>	https://gist.github.com/dustinlacewell/d4d3fdf5269c3355df509a37a92a62db
04:02:08	<jle`>	and imperative programming in haskell does sort of fit that general description, in a way that it doesn't in other languages
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04:03:32	<jle`>	ldlework: you can avoid the partial let-binding with a pattern match in your main case
04:03:41	<jle`>	capSentences' (Work (Just (c:i')) o s) =
04:03:54	<ldlework>	Ah good catch
04:04:05	<ldlework>	I guess I'm mostly asking about the act of constructing such a "work state" object
04:04:19	<jle`>	so the if can be a guard too, but you can also pattern match on '.' directly :)
04:04:21	<ldlework>	And then writing a custom function to essentially "flatten" (?) the object until the work is complete
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04:04:39	<ldlework>	jle`: oh nice, good idea
04:05:46	<jle`>	mk, looking at the overall structure and control flow
04:06:02	<jle`>	the recursion pattern here is essentially mapAccumL
04:06:51	<ldlework>	looking
04:06:51	<jle`>	so you can use mapAccumL (or 'traverse' under State) and implement it with the right higher-order function to pass to it
04:06:53	<jle`>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/Data-List.html#v:mapAccumL
04:07:07	<jle`>	mapAccumL basically handles the pattern matching for you on the items left in the list
04:07:31	<jle`>	and assembling an output list
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04:09:09	<ldlework>	I updated the implementation to use pattern matching
04:09:11	<ldlework>	https://gist.github.com/dustinlacewell/d4d3fdf5269c3355df509a37a92a62db
04:09:19	<ldlework>	pretty nifty
04:09:59	<ldlework>	jle`: if it's not too much to ask, would you mind showing a "cap the sentences" example using mapAccumL ?
04:10:08	<jle`>	oh yeah, assembling a list like o ++ [blah] has ... very unfavorable/unexpected inefficiency (O(n^2))
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04:10:43	<ldlework>	is there a better way to add a character to the end of a string?
04:10:47	<jle`>	so people often assemble the list backwards (blah : o) and reverse at the end, or use fancy continuation tricks like difflists
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04:10:57	<ldlework>	mm
04:11:25	<jle`>	er, maybe i made difflists seem more complicated than they are, it's basically just assembling a list using `DList a` instead of `[a]` and converting back in the end
04:11:32	<jle`>	but mapAccumL handles this for you already
04:12:04	<jle`>	nice new patterns, pretty clean :)
04:13:25	<ldlework>	jle`: I updated it with the reversal advice
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04:13:42	<jle`>	the idea of using mapAccumL instaed of direct recursion is the idea that explicitly writing recursion is usually pretty bug-prone (it's basically goto), so when you can, you identify that the specific pattern of recursion you are using is (hopefully) common, and use a higher-order function (like, foldr or map) to write it instead, and hopefully be more readable too
04:14:25	<jle`>	in this case you are assembling a new list from an old list by applying a "mapping function" to each item, but that mapping function keeps a state (the Bool)
04:15:11	<jle`>	but mapAccumL is sort of on the borderline of the readability tradeoff tbh, it doesn't hit that sweet spot like foldr or map does really
04:15:25	<jle`>	um let me see if i can squeeze your logic into mapAccumL
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04:20:36	<jle`>	ldlework: i've added it as a comment -- https://gist.github.com/dustinlacewell/d4d3fdf5269c3355df509a37a92a62db#gistcomment-3887148
04:20:57	<jle`>	tried to use the same variable names and stuff as your example so you can identify what parts went where
04:21:48	<ldlework>	that's awesome
04:23:28	<jle`>	again mapAccumL is just recursion, in the end, like your example, and isn't toooo different i think. it's just usually nice to piggyback off of a higher-order function if the pattern you are using is already common
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04:24:06	<jle`>	oh oof the implementation in the source is pretty opaque
04:24:18	<jle`>	@src mapAccumL
04:24:18	<lambdabot>	mapAccumL _ s [] = (s, [])
04:24:18	<lambdabot>	mapAccumL f s (x:xs) = (s'',y:ys)
04:24:18	<lambdabot>	where (s', y ) = f s x
04:24:18	<lambdabot>	(s'',ys) = mapAccumL f s' xs
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04:24:35	<jle`>	that one is a little more readabl
04:25:54	<ldlework>	I wish the documentation used semantic names for variables
04:26:03	<ldlework>	a and b are a bit ambiguous if you're not already familiar
04:26:17	<ldlework>	mapAccumL :: Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c)
04:26:22	<ldlework>	In the first param, the function
04:26:30	<ldlework>	is a the accumulated state, or b?
04:26:52	<jle`>	ah yeah, it's a little tough to read when you first see the function
04:27:03	<jle`>	might be easier to specialize to list
04:27:04	<ldlework>	Which is it? :P
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04:27:13	<jle`>	mapAccum: :: (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> [b] -> (a, [c])
04:27:19	<jle`>	so you can see that b is the items in the original list
04:27:31	<jle`>	and c is the items in the output list
04:27:58	<jle`>	it is kind of a pet peeve/annoyance to me that the functions in Data.List are not specialized to lists
04:29:28	<janus>	were they formerly specialized? i thought the policy was to generalize if possible. if that is the case, it would explain why they are generalized now
04:29:50	<jle`>	usually the convention is to provide the specialized functions with the typeclass's modules
04:30:18	<jle`>	so Data.Traversable would have the Traversable t => .. functions
04:30:30	<jle`>	and then if you want the specialized functions you would import the module with the data type
04:30:35	<jle`>	so Data.List would have the [a] functions
04:31:32	<awpr>	one benefit to that approach is that you can sometimes help type inference by using `L.length` instead of `length`
04:31:54	<awpr>	otherwise you're stuck with what, TypeApplications or explicit type signature annotations?
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04:32:19	<ldlework>	jle Why isn't https://gist.github.com/dustinlacewell/30f077fc00dcecec6fdac19647f4e40f working?
04:32:46	<jle`>	awpr: yup, it's especially disastrious in pedagogical situations (like this one)
04:33:02	<awpr>	it might also help readers to use the most specific version possible, since seeing `List.length` tells you immediately the input is a list rather than some other arbitrary `Foldable` (if modules export specialized functions)
04:33:11	<jle`>	ldlework: what is the error?
04:33:24	<ldlework>	I added it as a comment
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04:34:06	<jle`>	hm, does your environment print that out as a formatted error message?
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04:34:22	<jle`>	or does it come in a json blob like that
04:34:29	<ldlework>	added as comment
04:34:36	<ldlework>	it's vscode, just used the wrong copy function
04:35:05	<jle`>	ah yeah, hopefully that one is more readable. it's saying that `mapAccumL capper True` is String -> (Bool, String)
04:35:14	<jle`>	transforms a string to a new string, with Bool state
04:35:25	<jle`>	but the type signature you gave for it is String -> (Bool, Char)
04:35:31	<jle`>	transforming a string into a ... char?
04:35:37	<ldlework>	I see
04:36:10	<jle`>	so it's a mismatch between the type of the code you wrote and the type annotation you gave it
04:36:23	<ldlework>	makes sense
04:37:25	<ldlework>	jle`: https://gist.github.com/dustinlacewell/d7d0b76645b8720289024dc711027474
04:37:38	<ldlework>	I think my implementation is slightly more terse than yours hehe
04:37:58	<ldlework>	thanks to capturing two cases under `otherwise`
04:38:09	<ldlework>	I really appreciate your help
04:38:11	<jle`>	nice :)
04:38:32	<jle`>	np!
04:39:51	<janus>	getting ptsd from looking at the clippy avata
04:39:55	<janus>	:P
04:40:16	<ldlework>	haha
04:40:21	<ldlework>	i modeled it in blender!
04:41:12	<janus>	wow, good job. blender is awesome
04:41:30	<jle`>	ooh, definitely impressive
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04:44:17	<ldlework>	blender is definitely awesome
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05:02:18	<mishugana>	Hello folks, is LYAH still relevant?
05:02:28	<mishugana>	Meaning outdated/updated/abandoned?
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05:08:26	<janus>	i don't think it is updated but i also don't think it is outdated :P
05:08:29	<ldlework>	Is there a !! for tuples
05:09:00	<ldlework>	actually nm
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06:33:08	<awpr>	ldlework: to show off my new library dependent-literals / because I got nerd-sniped, I hacked together an implementation: https://github.com/google/hs-dependent-literals/blob/tuple_indexing_example/dependent-literals-plugin/tests/TupleIndexing.hs
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08:00:03	<Cajun>	is there any way to stop GHCI/strings from escaping non-ascii characters? i want the output to be random garbage characters not "\159\191\242..... etc"
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08:07:36	<kuribas>	Cajun: what do you mean by "output"?
08:07:57	<kuribas>	the Show instance?
08:08:27	<Cajun>	like if my string contains special characters (idk what characters specifically) itll give me stuff like "\147\DEL\152\161" instead of the character representations
08:09:00	<Cajun>	all operations work normally on those, i just want them to be normal instead of escaped
08:09:05	<merijn>	Cajun: Don't use Show
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08:09:40	<Cajun>	is there another good way to see the output without shoving it into some file?
08:09:48	<merijn>	Cajun: By default ghci runs everything, including strings, through Show before, well, showing it
08:09:53	<merijn>	Use putStrLn
08:10:03	<Cajun>	got it, ill try that, thanks :)
08:10:18	<merijn>	% "fooλ"
08:10:18	<yahb>	merijn: "foo\955"
08:10:23	<merijn>	% putStrLn "fooλ"
08:10:23	<yahb>	merijn: fooλ
08:10:32	<Cajun>	thats perfect :)
08:10:33	<merijn>	Note also the absence/presence of quotes
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08:13:46	<kuribas>	sometimes you may want quotes though, like in logs...
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08:42:09	<Gurkenglas>	I don't get PrimGetter/why there's (t->b) in it. What's the theoretical justification?
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08:42:42	<Gurkenglas>	(found on https://oleg.fi/gists/posts/2017-04-18-glassery.html)
08:44:40	<dminuoso>	Gurkenglas: It's simply the dual of PrimReview
08:45:20	<dminuoso>	Gurkenglas: And in the glassery there's some details about PrimReview
08:45:36	<dminuoso>	Note that `type Simple o s a = o s s a a`
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08:48:34	<Gurkenglas>	dminuoso, is the theoretical justification for each supposed to be that when we apply all the typeclass combinations to p we get all the optic types of which two happen to be PrimReview and PrimGetter, and they are where Review and Getter come from in the first place?
08:49:14	<dminuoso>	Yes.
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08:50:43	<dminuoso>	Both PrimReview and PrimGetter are mostly redundant, they dont appear to model something that is useful in the language of optics
08:51:55	<Gurkenglas>	Can we rephrase a bunch of the glassery graph by replacing the -> "type Optic c s t a b = forall p. c p => p a b -> p s t" with linearly typed ->s?
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08:53:15	<Gurkenglas>	aka a lens is a traversal that uses the (a -> f b) exactly once
08:54:31	<dminuoso>	I cant even pretend to know anything about that. On some naive level is sounds reasonable, but having absolutely no experience with linearnly typed systems, I cant say at all whether that's encodable like that.
08:55:00	<dminuoso>	The thing is
08:55:06	<dminuoso>	With profunctor optics you dont have some `a -> f b`
08:55:19	<Gurkenglas>	you have some p a b though!
08:55:23	<dminuoso>	As being a lens is encoded in the `Strong p` constraint on p
08:56:07	<dminuoso>	Gurkenglas: `forall p. Strong p => Optic p s t a b`, anyway
08:56:43	<Gurkenglas>	yeah and Optic p s t a b uses a -> in the definition which is my attack vector
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08:56:57	<dminuoso>	Mmm?
08:57:42	<Gurkenglas>	type Traversal s t a b = forall p. Traversing p => p a b -> p s t
08:57:57	<Gurkenglas>	type Lens s t a b = forall p. Traversing p => p a b %1 -> p s t
08:58:24	<dminuoso>	Yes, so?
08:59:05	<Gurkenglas>	It sounds like you are claiming that this won't work, because i have "p a b" instead of "a -> f b"
08:59:10	<Gurkenglas>	and i dont see why its relevant :D
09:00:15	<Gurkenglas>	(by the way if we get first class polymorphism while lens switches to %1 and then it turns out we dont have first class %n im gonna be sad)
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09:03:35	<Gurkenglas>	dminuoso, is your argument just "a -> f b" is understandable enough and it sounds like it would work with that, but "p a b" is mysterious and none of us have any reason to believe whether this would work? :3
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09:04:21	<dminuoso>	Gurkenglas: Like I said
09:04:31	<dminuoso>	I cant even pretend to know anything about whether this is encodable via linear types.
09:04:45	<dminuoso>	And just that your argument
09:04:56	<dminuoso>	`aka a lens is a traversal that uses the (a -> f b) exactly once` doesnt apply to optics. can you reformulate
09:05:27	<Gurkenglas>	aka a lens is a traversal that uses the p a b exactly once
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09:08:20	<nshepperd2>	a traversal is a lens that uses the (a -> f b) multiple times and combines the results
09:08:39	<Gurkenglas>	yeah im not saying to put traversal it terms of lens, im saying to put lens in terms of traversal
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09:08:47	<dminuoso>	Gurkenglas: Im not convinced that truly holds.
09:09:00	<nshepperd2>	being linear or not doesn't tell you how to combine things
09:09:11	<Gurkenglas>	you can't combine things if you only have one of it :3
09:09:17	<dminuoso>	Of course you can
09:09:22	<Gurkenglas>	how?
09:09:27	<dminuoso>	You can use `p a b` once, duplicate the result and combine them.
09:09:38	<Gurkenglas>	you can't duplicate the result, thats the point of linear types :23
09:09:42	<Gurkenglas>	You cant even throw it away
09:09:52	<Gurkenglas>	compiler will complain.
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09:10:41	<nshepperd2>	being linear on p a b is different from being linear on whatever the 'result' of p a b is
09:11:05	<dminuoso>	Gurkenglas: no I dont think it holds.
09:11:07	<dminuoso>	Consider something like
09:11:19	<dminuoso>	Lens Int ()
09:11:21	<Gurkenglas>	nshepperd2, sure, and i claim specializing traversal to lens needs the "being linear on p a b" one
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09:11:29	<dminuoso>	Err, `Lens' Int ()`
09:12:01	<dminuoso>	you cant even demand that the input profunctor even be used
09:13:24	<Gurkenglas>	of course united :: Lens' Int () uses its argument exactly once
09:13:33	<Gurkenglas>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.0.1/docs/src/Control.Lens.Lens.html#united "united f v = f () <&> \ () -> v"
09:14:58	<Gurkenglas>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/profunctor-optics-0.0.2/docs/src/Data.Profunctor.Optic.Lens.html#united too "united = lens (const ()) const"
09:15:21	<Gurkenglas>	Go ahead, construct a lens that doesnt use its argument.
09:17:58	<nshepperd2>	a lens works on things that have no way of combining them
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09:18:25	<nshepperd2>	a traversal with an arbitrary linearness restriction doesn't
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09:29:50	<Gurkenglas>	why not? the linearness restriction expresses that we won't need a way of combining them.
09:31:13	<nshepperd2>	no it doesn't
09:31:44	<Gurkenglas>	can you give an example?
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09:33:17	<nshepperd2>	Applicative f => (a -> f b) ~> (s -> f t)
09:34:35	<Gurkenglas>	You mean that I can't write "(forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f b) ~> (s -> f t)) -> (forall f. Functor f => (a -> f b) -> (s -> f t))"?
09:35:39	<nshepperd2>	I mean that if you wanna apply that function, you're gonna have to provide an Applicative instance
09:38:23	<nshepperd2>	and no, simply inventing one out of `undefined` on the basis that it can't possibly need it is unsound, because as mentioned, > being linear on p a b is different from being linear on whatever the 'result' of p a b is
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09:39:21	<nshepperd2>	and anyway, if you do the right thing and weaken the constraint to Functor f in the first place, then the linear type is redundant
09:41:04	<gentauro>	so looking at /r/haskell and seeing SPJ "moving along". The question is, is Haskell in good hands going forward? :)
09:41:30	<merijn>	He's not stopping with Haskell or GHC...
09:41:37	<merijn>	It literally says right in the post >.>
09:41:42	<merijn>	He's just leaving MSR
09:42:06	<Gurkenglas>	nshepperd2, may I have some p where this doesn't work?
09:43:38	<nshepperd2>	Gurkenglas: literally a -> f b
09:43:49	<gentauro>	merijn: aha
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09:44:15	<gentauro>	I was afraid that he was going to join Oracle and spend time on Java instead :'(
09:44:16	<Gurkenglas>	:t unsafeSingular -- This does the undefined thing, what does it not work on?
09:44:17	<lambdabot>	(Conjoined p, Functor f) => Traversing p f s t a b -> Over p f s t a b
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09:44:39	<nshepperd2>	Gurkenglas: that's not the same thing
09:44:41	<Gurkenglas>	(I admit that properly I should be threading the %1 through the definition to show that the undefined isnt hit)
09:45:13	<dminuoso>	Gurkenglas: Perhaps the real question is, what are you hoping to obtain? The language of linearity wouldn't allow you to model much else.
09:45:23	<nshepperd2>	basically, linear type are useless
09:45:24	<dminuoso>	What is a Prism? What about an AffineFold?
09:45:47	<nshepperd2>	a function being linear doesn't let the caller do anything new except call it in a context that is itself linear
09:46:50	<nshepperd2>	this is completely different from parametricity, which actually lets you call functions at different types
09:47:58	<Gurkenglas>	dminuoso, Lens,Traversal1,AffineTraversal,Traversal become Traversal. Getter,Fold1,AffineFold,Fold become Fold.
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09:59:41	<Gurkenglas>	a lens is to a traversal as a prism is to a... witness that s is isomorphic to "something + (Nat, a)"? my theory predicts that %1 will make it a prism again iff it's the correct definition.
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10:05:56	<Gurkenglas>	(that's what i'm hoping to obtain, predictions :))
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10:23:20	<Gurkenglas>	Why aren't the lens laws just "view l s ≡ view l s' implies set l b s ≡ set l b s'"?
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10:36:42	<nshepperd2>	because that law isn't true?
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10:39:16	<[itchyjunk]>	What's a good pace to specfically learn all the A->B->C notations. a :: A->B says a has the type A->B, but i can thinking of a as a function that takes something of type A and returns something of type B right?
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10:40:02	<[itchyjunk]>	but when a :: A->B->C->A, is a function that takes two things of type A and B and returns something of type C->A or takes three things of type A,B,C and returns something of type A
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10:40:04	<[itchyjunk]>	type thing
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11:02:50	<enikar>	[itchyjunk]: the both are true. Function are currified. When they are partialy applied, they return a new function that takes remaind arguments.
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11:07:34	<[itchyjunk]>	so say f :: A->B->C->D, applying right associativity f :: A->(B->(C->D)). I pass this function only A and the return of this would be a function g :: B->(C->D). If f had A and B, i would have a return of h :: C->D and in case f had A B and C, the return type would be D ?
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11:09:06	<enikar>	[itchyjunk]: exactly. You are right.
11:09:45	<[itchyjunk]>	this stuff is sloooowly making sense ;_;
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11:22:16	<carbolymer>	anyone tried to "register" on haskell.love in the schedule tab? I wanted to build agenda for tomorrow, and it seems not possible
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12:43:15	<kuribas>	How do you handle versioning of configuration? For example, being able to test a previous version of the app without having to manually edit your configuration files...
12:43:37	<carbolymer>	in git
12:43:59	<kuribas>	I don't want to store configuration in git, because it contains passwords etc...
12:44:12	<carbolymer>	then skip passwords, and store the rest in git
12:44:16	<carbolymer>	encrypt passwords
12:44:25	<carbolymer>	or store them in shit like hashicorp vault
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12:45:00	<kuribas>	hmm
12:45:21	<kuribas>	Also, my own configuration file may look different from the other developers.
12:45:30	<kuribas>	Different database ports...
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12:46:20	<merijn>	kuribas: Support old formats indefinitely
12:46:22	<carbolymer>	uhm, you can store your diff on a separate branch or git stash, and rebase it every time
12:46:41	<merijn>	kuribas: If you change the format, make a migration codepath to "upgrade" old config files to the new code support
12:47:08	<kuribas>	merijn: well, it's not upgrading which is problematic, but downgrading, for example if production has a different config file then testing.
12:48:06	<kuribas>	merijn: ideally they would be backwards compatible.
12:48:11	<kuribas>	I wonder if that can be done with dhall...
12:48:29	<kuribas>	if dhall will skip fields it doesn't recognise
12:49:19	<merijn>	kuribas: Presumably the production config is older then testing, so upgrading old configs to new is sufficient, no?
12:50:00	<kuribas>	merijn: not if I am first testing, then need to hotfix a bug in production.
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13:09:45	<Franciman>	Hi all, is there a way to tell ghc to delete all compilation byproducts in the directory?
13:09:50	<Franciman>	i.e. Main.hi Main.o etc
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13:16:34	<adamCS>	Franciman: "cabal clean" might? but it also clears out dependencies that come from a git repo or local directory (via cabal.project).
13:17:19	<adamCS>	(and that might depend a bit on cabal version...)
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13:17:48	<Franciman>	adamCS: I am not using cabal
13:18:01	<Franciman>	I am using ghc directly
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13:18:06	<adamCS>	ah. No idea, then. Sorry!
13:18:54	<Franciman>	np, thanks anyways
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13:21:32	<kuribas>	Is there a portable solution for config file location?
13:23:09	<carbolymer>	what do you mean? https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/XDG_user_directories ?
13:23:36	<kuribas>	carbolymer: does xdg work in windows?
13:23:52	<carbolymer>	I highly doubt that
13:23:56	<kuribas>	hmm, an environment variable would do ...
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14:16:47	<slack1256>	Is it possible to specify a type family arity from the signature given by StandaloneKindSignatures ?
14:17:12	<dminuoso>	Sure
14:17:17	<dminuoso>	% :set -XStandaloneKindSignatures
14:17:17	<yahb>	dminuoso:
14:17:44	<dminuoso>	% :set -XDataKinds
14:17:44	<yahb>	dminuoso:
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14:19:05	<dminuoso>	% type F :: Bool -> Type; type family F x where F 'True = Int; F 'False = Char -- slack1256
14:19:05	<yahb>	dminuoso:
14:19:37	<dminuoso>	Is this what you meant?
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14:20:30	<slack1256>	Mmmm let me think if this is what I actually wanted.
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14:25:36	<luc03>	dminuoso: Do you use % to indicate a ghci prompt?
14:27:01	<dminuoso>	luc03: It's the trigger command for yahb
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14:46:58	<dminuoso>	Oh I can see how that might not have been obvious.
14:47:07	<dminuoso>	% foldr (+) 0 [1,2,3,4,5] -- luc03
14:47:07	<yahb>	dminuoso: 15
14:47:44	<dminuoso>	yahb is just a GHCi bot, if you write a message starting with % yahb will run everything that follows in a GHCi session
14:47:51	<dminuoso>	And return the output
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14:56:56	<slack1256>	dminuoso: https://gist.github.com/RubenAstudillo/6fb47a6dfe9238987c292c1894e2bfbe
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14:57:38	<slack1256>	I think my problem is with using partially applied type families. If you have time, can you read that gist?
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15:11:26	<merijn>	slack1256: wait
15:11:38	<merijn>	slack1256: Why are you defining a type synonym and type with the same name?
15:11:52	<merijn>	You're defining Sigma twice
15:12:09	<slack1256>	StandaloneKindSignatures :-)
15:12:13	<merijn>	Or is this fancy new typefamilies syntax they changed when I wasn't looking?
15:12:23	<slack1256>	merijn: The future is now!
15:12:40	<merijn>	Why not just define them in place? >.>
15:13:22	<slack1256>	It is an example, I wanted to try my hand at SAKS. Also, to see if they worked with type families.
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15:13:43	<slack1256>	But sure, on a real closed type families, there is no much sense to use SAKS.
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15:44:53	<monochrom>	https://discourse.haskell.org/t/new-horizons-for-spj/3099?u=taylorfausak
15:45:32	<monochrom>	This just before the Haskell Love conference. Tomorrow everyone will be overwhelming him during his keynote speech!
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15:52:13	<pavonia>	Is this a fancy mailing list archive or a separate board?
15:52:26	<monochrom>	separate board
15:52:49	<pavonia>	Interesting, never heard of it
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15:54:36	<geekosaur>	it's fairly recent, part of the new Haskell Foundation stuff
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16:02:43	<Hecate>	omfg https://github.com/zkat/miette
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16:14:13	<gentauro>	monochrom: doesn't SPJ "own" part of FP Complete? Perhaps he will join there?
16:14:41	gentauro	reference: https://www.fpcomplete.com/blog/2013/01/why-im-investing-in-fp-complete/
16:15:45	<gentauro>	perhaps his position will be BDFL of Haskell?
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16:19:42	<Hecate>	gentauro: he's already in such a place through the GHC Steering Committee :)
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16:37:39	<monochrom>	"imperator" is better.
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17:03:28	<maerwald>	SPJ working on stack?
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17:08:53	<Hecate>	maerwald: uh?
17:09:02	<Hecate>	why are you giving me heart attacks like that
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17:09:41	<monochrom>	I thought gentauro said it first.
17:10:00	<monochrom>	You didn't have a heart attack back then. Why now?
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17:10:15	<geekosaur>	I thought FPC had moved stack to community support more or less anyway
17:11:58	<maerwald>	geekosaur: you mean the issue tracker is dead? yeah
17:14:47	<maerwald>	I've been commenting on it for the past 2 weeks and fixed several bugs. Generally, there's not response to both issues and PRs, unless e.g. the metadata is broken.
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17:20:17	<maerwald>	you may ask why... well, because I'm getting stack bug reports now.
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17:21:53	<geekosaur>	you can unsubscribe
17:22:26	<monochrom>	Or we can name you Imperator of Stack so you can act on the bug reports. >:)
17:22:31	<geekosaur>	auto-subscribing people to new issues is imo one of the weirder github-ism
17:23:10	<geekosaur>	*s
17:23:19	<monochrom>	Interesting. But I would think github learned it from Amazon.
17:24:47	<monochrom>	"You looked at a Logitech keyboard. We think you will be interested in all kinds of RGB gaming peripherals."
17:25:20	<monochrom>	"You submitted a bug report. We think you will be interested in all kinds of bug reports."
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17:28:31	<maerwald>	eh, worst thing is if you work on github hosted projects and can't distinguish the 200+ notifications from useful bug reports on your open source libs anymore
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17:35:17	<maerwald>	here... ppl complaining about emails and mailing lists
17:35:26	<maerwald>	at least there I can have a proper filter
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17:35:48	<jangid>	The type of '(<)' is a function and type of 'compare' is a function. Then why compare works with backticks in infix format but this doesn't work: 4 `(<)` 5
17:35:48	<jangid>
17:36:17	<jangid>	what is the rule for backtics?
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17:37:44	<dsal>	Functions made up of symbols are infix by default and functions made up of letters are prefix by default.
17:37:52	<dsal>	> (<) 4 5
17:37:54	<lambdabot>	True
17:37:58	<dsal>	> 4 `compare` 5
17:38:00	<lambdabot>	LT
17:38:41	<dsal>	Backticks allow you to use a prefix function infix and parens let you use an infix function prefix.
17:38:57	<dsal>	(hand wavy wording)
17:39:23	<mangoiv>	I think his question is specifically about why `(<)` doesn't work (as the brackets make "<" a prefix function)
17:39:25	<mangoiv>	m
17:39:40	<mangoiv>	*their
17:40:53	<dolio>	Because backticks are for making alphabetical names infix.
17:41:03	<awpr>	there are backquotes there, but some IRC clients are interpreting them as formatting; I think the question is why backquotes don't undo the effect of parens
17:41:38	<awpr>	and I think the answer is just that the syntax is defined so that backquotes around alphanumeric-style identifiers create an infix operator
17:41:59	<awpr>	as opposed to backquotes around "anything that would be a prefix function"
17:42:29	<awpr>	i.e., that's just how it is
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17:50:03	<jangid>	yes, I want to why backticks doesn't under the effect of parens.
17:50:21	<jangid>	I mean doesn't undo the effect of parens
17:50:49	<awpr>	that's just how the grammar is defined. (<) is an expression but not an identifier, but backquotes turn identifiers into infix operators
17:51:41	<jangid>	but calling :t with (<) shows it as a function
17:51:53	<awpr>	it sure is. but it's not an identifier
17:51:59	<mangoiv>	well, it is a function in any case.
17:52:04	<awpr>	this is about the Haskell syntax, not the type system
17:52:31	<jangid>	hmm, I think I am beginning to understand.
17:53:50	<jangid>	everything is function if we check types :t 5 reports 5 :: Num p => p
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17:54:46	<dminuoso>	It's not a function.
17:54:58	<iqubic>	No actually, that's just a single value.
17:55:14	<awpr>	it's got nothing to do with whether it's a function, you could just as well do "let x = True in 2 `x` 2". it'd be a type error, but still parsed as an infix operator
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17:55:32	<awpr>	https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/compiler/GHC/Parser.y#L3656 is where the grammar describes the backquote syntax; it specifically wants a "varid" inside the backquotes, not an expression
17:55:35	<dminuoso>	While, in the implementation, that might be compiled into being parametrized over a dictionary, that's an implementation detail and might not even happen.
17:56:03	<iqubic>	But actually, the way that number literals work is that haskell turns your 5 into "fromIntergral 5"
17:56:29	<awpr>	a "varid" is the alphanumeric-style identifier I was talking about earlier, basically a name made of text rather than symbols
17:57:13	<dolio>	Just like you're not allowed to write: (`isInfixOf`)
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17:58:05	<jangid>	dolio: exactly. that's how the grammar is.
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17:58:18	<jangid>	thnks for help, friends
17:58:48	<awpr>	I guess to get a bit more into "why", if you wanted backquotes to work on parenthesized operator names, you might define them as containing an expression rather than a varid. but then you'd have a problem: backquotes aren't matched pairs, so there's an ambiguity where the ending backquote could get parsed as another nested backquote operator. incoming GHC proposal: add guillemets as an operator delimiter that contains expressions
17:58:48	<awpr>	:)
17:58:49	<mangoiv>	iqubic: really? That's interesting, why does it parse it as an int in the first place? It could just parse it as "some number" as that's what it's kept as anyways?
17:59:29	<awpr>	iqubic: unless you're using https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dependent-literals-plugin :P
17:59:29	<iqubic>	:t fromIntegral
17:59:30	<lambdabot>	(Integral a, Num b) => a -> b
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18:01:06	<iqubic>	It's not actually parsing it as an Int.
18:02:29	<mangoiv>	Can you elaborate? Cause I think I didn't understand yet. If it isn't parsed to an Int, why does it have to use fromIntegral then?
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18:05:00	<iqubic>	I'm both surprised and pleased that DataKinds and NumericUnderscores work well together, letting me use "2_147_483_647" as a thing of kind Nat.
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18:06:18	<justsomeguy>	I have a linux filepath, and want to find out the UID or user name of the account that owns it. What module has functions for stuff like that?
18:07:43	<koala_man>	unix presumably. System.Posix.Files
18:07:43	<justsomeguy>	(I tried searching for getUser, getOwner, and a few different type signature on Hoogle but didn't come up with anything useful.)
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18:08:02	<koala_man>	fileOwner :: FileStatus -> UserID
18:08:14	<awpr>	mangoiv: from GHC's perspective the literal value is an Integer, and the interpretation of that Integer as whatever particular numeric type is up to Haskell library code; that way libraries can define custom numeric types that work with integral literals by adding their own Num instance, without needing to modify the compiler to know about it. `fromInteger` is the hook that GHC uses to talk to the library side, so it turns
18:08:14	<awpr>	source-level literals `42` into `fromInteger 42`, which ends up calling whichever implementation is appropriate, including custom numeric types
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18:09:15	<awpr>	most of the time that gets optimized into something like `I# 42#` by inlining and simplifying and such, so it's almost like the compiler has built-in knowledge of every custom numeric type that will ever exist
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18:11:55	<justsomeguy>	This seems to work in ghci ... s <- getFileStatus "testdir"; print $ fileOwner s
18:12:25	<justsomeguy>	Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, koala_man
18:13:33	<justsomeguy>	I should probably just do a search for likely module names from packages included with ghc and base next time.
18:13:57	<jangid>	(Integral a, Num b) => a -> b i.e. fromIntegral parses a as integer and converts it into more generic number so that it is easy to put it in expressions with Floating.
18:14:59	<awpr>	careful not to mix up fromIntegral and fromInteger -- `fromIntegral = fromInteger . toInteger`
18:15:16	<awpr>	:t (fromInteger, toInteger, fromIntegral)
18:15:17	<lambdabot>	(Integral a1, Integral a2, Num a3, Num b) => (Integer -> a3, a1 -> Integer, a2 -> b)
18:15:36	<awpr>	oof, that formatting is less useful than I had hoped
18:16:51	<awpr>	anyway fromInteger is the one GHC uses internally for integral literals, and fromIntegral is the one you'd usually use as a Haskell user for converting "whatever inty type" to "whatever numeric type"
18:17:07	<monochrom>	I# 42# means that the compiler knows it's Int.
18:17:42	<awpr>	yep, I'd contend that most of the time you use a literal it's for a statically known type
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18:24:13	<mangoiv>	Thanks awpr for the for the extensive answer!
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18:28:17	<_bin>	What's the best way to retry a GET with wreq until it succeeds if I hit a 5xx error or similar?
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18:30:23	<iqubic>	How does fromInteger work for Word16? Does it just take the 16 lowest bits of the given Integer?
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18:31:27	<awpr>	generally fromInteger overflows, or sometimes throws. I don't know of any that saturate
18:31:38	<awpr>	> fromInteger 65537 :: Word16
18:31:40	<lambdabot>	1
18:32:06	<awpr>	but GHC has warnings for out-of-range literals for a few types it has actual built-in knowledge of
18:32:19	<awpr>	> 65537 :: Word16
18:32:20	<lambdabot>	1
18:32:43	<awpr>	hmm, lambdabot doesn't show them, but it's `-Woverflowed-literals`
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18:33:09	<iqubic>	What I want is a way to convert an Integer to a Word16 by just taking the lowest 16 bits. How can I do that?
18:33:36	<awpr>	that should have the same effect as overflowing, i.e. fromInteger does that
18:34:00	<iqubic>	Cool!
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19:11:39	<_bin>	To clarify the above, I am attempting to make a number of requests and sometimes receive errors (timeouts, 5xx, etc.) I'd like to simply repeat the request indefinitely until I get a successful response; how should I go about doing this?
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19:12:16	<maerwald>	_bin: there's a retry strategies thing
19:12:18	<maerwald>	sec
19:13:02	<maerwald>	_bin: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/retry-0.9.0.0/docs/Control-Retry.html
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19:13:30	<maerwald>	I use fullJitterBackoff http://www.awsarchitectureblog.com/2015/03/backoff.html
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19:20:28	<_bin>	maerwald: Thanks, this looks promising.
19:24:10	<iqubic>	@pl \m -> m `mod` 5 == 0
19:24:10	<lambdabot>	(0 ==) . (`mod` 5)
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19:30:22	<iqubic>	I think I'll just use the former version.
19:30:37	<teddyc>	lol
19:31:21	<monochrom>	This one is not too bad.
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19:31:50	<monochrom>	But by the time you get "(g . ) . (. f)" then yeah, use a pointful lambda.
19:32:11	<maerwald>	:t (.).(.)
19:32:12	<lambdabot>	(b -> c) -> (a1 -> a2 -> b) -> a1 -> a2 -> c
19:32:44	<monochrom>	Unfortunately, playing with category theory too much does lead to "(g . ) . (. f)"
19:33:40	<awpr>	dimap @(->)?
19:34:20	<iqubic>	monochrom: I'm actually just using this: "divisible divisor = filter (\n -> n `mod` divisor == 0)" I take a list of numbers and return the same list, but with only the values divisible by divisor.
19:34:58	<monochrom>	Mathematicians think they have mitigated it with "g_{} . f^{}".
19:34:59	<iqubic>	I'm not sure that making the lambda into a pointfree version will be clearer.
19:35:29	<monochrom>	That only caused the bigger problem that no one remembers whether g_{*} means (g .) or (. g).
19:35:45	<monochrom>	In fact, I don't either. I might have mixed them up too.
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19:36:02	<iqubic>	monochrom: I don't know which it is and I don't care.
19:36:20	<iqubic>	Either way (g .) and (. g) are weird to think about.
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19:36:32	<roboguy_>	monochrom: IIRC, different sources have different conventions on those names, to make it even more confusing
19:37:16	<monochrom>	iqubic: I was not talking to you.
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19:37:25	<iqubic>	Ah. I'm sorry.
19:37:43	<monochrom>	I don't care about your divisible either.
19:37:46	<justsomeguy>	If I want to find out what a file handle is in depth, what it's structure is and what things it keeps track of, where would I read about it? Should I be consulting the C stdlib documentation?
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19:38:52	<justsomeguy>	System.IO talks about file handles a little, but it seems like a wrapper around the linux syscalls.
19:39:09	<monochrom>	Perhaps every time you say something, I should reply "I don't know it and I don't care". Since you seem to like to do the same.
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19:40:22	<maerwald>	my standard answer to support requests
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19:42:10	<monochrom>	justsomeguy: I think GHC.IO.* is a good start.
19:42:23	<geekosaur>	justsomeguy, there's some documentation in iirc GHC.IO.Handle
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19:43:24	<monochrom>	You may also need the backdrop of https://github.com/takenobu-hs/haskell-ghc-illustrated
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19:44:32	<maerwald>	GHC Handles are something entirely different though, no?
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19:45:05	<maerwald>	I mean, compared to File descriptor etc
19:45:33	<monochrom>	since every time I call getChar (say), it does not translate to a simple blocking FFI call, even disregarding buffering.
19:45:39	<maerwald>	can get GCed etc
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19:46:08	<monochrom>	Instead it translates to green-thread rescheduling, I/O manager thingies, etc.
19:46:59	<monochrom>	But no "descriptor" was mentioned.
19:47:21	<maerwald>	yeah, Handle is basically something low-level that isn't low-level
19:50:12	<roboguy_>	GHC Handles do look a bit different than file descriptors, based on the implementation. I always assumed it was a newtype around either an Int or a FILE pointer, but I guess not!
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19:51:58	<justsomeguy>	GHC.IO.* is pretty helpful so far. File handles seem internally complex, but I probably only have to worry about the operations I do on them and how to open/close them.
19:52:23	<justsomeguy>	At least that's the impression I get so far.
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19:56:20	<Drew[m]>	Every `Handle` contains a `Handle__` which contains a `haDevice` field of an existentially qualified type variable which must be of the typeclass `IODevice` which provides the interface for "I/O operations required for implementing a Handle". There is one instance: `FD`
19:56:39	<Drew[m]>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/GHC-IO-FD.html#t:FD
19:56:56	<Drew[m]>	There's the file descriptor
19:57:14	<geekosaur>	a lot of the complexity is being compatible with both windows and posix
19:57:52	<geekosaur>	since for example a unix socket can be wrapped by a normal filehandle but a windows one can't
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19:58:20	<geekosaur>	so it has some extra overhead to be able to handle a winsock handle
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20:25:02	<lechner>	Hi, does servant allow dynamic APIs? It would be like /name/{database}, where some URLs are redirected and would them presumably have a different type. Any other solution to dynamic redirects is acceptable, too. Thanks!
20:25:05	<_bin>	Opinions on SQLite packages? sqlite-simple appears to be the best-maintained, but I haven't used it before.
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20:29:35	<maerwald>	anything, as long as it's not persistent
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20:31:09	<_bin>	maerwald: Huh?
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20:31:45	<maerwald>	@hackage persistent
20:31:45	<lambdabot>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/persistent
20:32:11	<Rembane>	_bin: Pick the simplest one possible, and get something working.
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20:32:26	<Rembane>	_bin: sqlite-simple is probably the simplest one possible.
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20:33:38	<d34df00d>	Hi folks.
20:33:54	<_bin>	maerwald: Oh, I thought you meant as long as the database didn't persist and was a bit confused.
20:33:54	<d34df00d>	What's the right channel about hls? I have a (user) question about whether it supports something.
20:33:59	<_bin>	Rembane: Sounds good, thanks.
20:34:06	<unit73e>	@maerwald, what's the problem with persistent? or advantage? I've never used it, just curious.
20:34:06	<lambdabot>	Unknown command, try @list
20:34:11	<unit73e>	maerwald, what's the problem with persistent? or advantage? I've never used it, just curious.
20:34:34	<unit73e>	I always forget that @ thing here is different..
20:35:07	<geekosaur>	recent versions of persistent are kinda broken, as I understand it
20:35:25	<geekosaur>	it also doesn't deliver on its documented promises?
20:35:26	<maerwald>	it's just awful TH and there are better libraries if you really need handholding
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20:36:24	<unit73e>	ok. so it's kind of like most serialization abstractions in other languages that end up being more of a nuisanse than an advantage
20:36:38	<unit73e>	like JPA in Java
20:37:22	<Rembane>	It's really hard getting it right. For some reason...
20:38:12	<unit73e>	yeah just like JPA. JPA does whatever it wants with SQL and lazy/eager transactions when it was supposed to deal with all the problems of ORM translation to SQL.
20:38:41	<unit73e>	so everyone ends up having to debug what JPA is doing
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20:45:07	<dsal>	_bin: sqlite-simple is pretty great. Has the features and stuff.
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20:53:32	<roboguy_>	geekosaur: ah, that makes sense
20:53:41	<roboguy_>	(about file handles)
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20:55:58	<geekosaur>	d34df00d, #haskell-language-server I think
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21:01:11	<unit73e>	btw I read a bit about Rust and traits are kind of like type classes but not sure how similar
21:01:23	<unit73e>	seems to be using a system more keen to scala than haskell
21:01:39	<unit73e>	or swift, has the same kind of type system
21:01:43	<monochrom>	Yeah.
21:02:13	<dolio>	Are Rust traits like Scala traits, or something else?
21:02:59	<unit73e>	I'm not sure. I know kinds are hidden in Rust so I can't tell.
21:03:57	<awpr>	AIUI traits are almost exactly typeclasses, except that rustc will always monomorphize them (like C++ templates) whereas GHC is willing to pass around pointers to instance records if necessary
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21:06:10	<dolio>	Okay, so they're actually like Scala implicits.
21:06:30	<d34df00d>	geekosaur: thanks!
21:07:17	<unit73e>	looks like it's like scala implicits, yes, but in Java there's type erasure
21:07:28	<unit73e>	or JVM to be precise
21:07:29	<awpr>	I don't see much similarity between traits/typeclasses and implicit params. I guess GHC's implementation of typeclass resolution is a bit like filling an implicit param based on the type?
21:07:58	<awpr>	leaving aside the fact that Haskell ImplicitParams are a magical typeclass, lol
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21:13:22	<unit73e>	I guess it's similar more on implicit functions, where you add functionality.
21:13:35	<unit73e>	the similarities are much more clear in rust vs haskell
21:14:02	<unit73e>	because scala has a complex mixed bag of everything
21:14:36	<unit73e>	so rustc monomorphizes everything but doesn't that end up being more limited? that's the part I'm wondering
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21:15:05	<awpr>	yeah, I don't know enough Scala to be of much use there. just a moderate level of Rust knowledge and plenty of Haskell
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21:15:48	<awpr>	Rust does have a trait-based dynamic dispatch feature, but it's more like C++ objects with vtables rather than Haskell's polymorphic code with instance records
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21:16:09	<unit73e>	to be it's just kind of interesting. haskell syntax is much more cleaner than rust for sure and doesn't allow mixed paradigms that end up resulting in newbies making not so great code.
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21:16:45	<awpr>	to be more specific Rust monomorphizes all generic functions, and in the process of doing that, it resolves all the trait dispatch
21:17:35	<awpr>	if that becomes a limitation, there's "trait objects", which take a trait and turn it into a type of objects with vtables
21:17:50	<awpr>	in which case the function isn't generic, it just takes a trait object parameter
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21:19:59	<unit73e>	at least C++ finally has competition
21:20:06	<unit73e>	in pratice
21:20:19	<unit73e>	not just in theory
21:21:06	<awpr>	yeah, Rust is a huge leap forward IMO. it feels like Haskell's type system with C++' capacity for manual control
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21:21:36	<maerwald[m]>	Rust has HKT?
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21:22:03	<Rembane>	maerwald[m]: Nope, they've carefully avoided adding them for many years now.
21:22:19	<awpr>	Rust has all kinds of Haskell features, but they're always very careful not to call anything by its Haskell name when adding it to Rust
21:22:42	<maerwald[m]>	So it's barely Haskell type system, except for ADTs
21:23:31	<awpr>	parametric-ish polymorphism, typeclasses, ADTs, it's pretty similar to basic level Haskell
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21:23:56	<roboguy_>	Rembane: is there a resource that gives info on why they've avoided them? I've never used Rust, but I've heard about that and I've always wondered
21:24:04	<maerwald[m]>	Monads are basic, are they not?
21:24:28	<unit73e>	I'd say so but in the functional programming world. in imperative you can cheat
21:24:58	<unit73e>	that's the part I don't like in Rust
21:25:09	<unit73e>	but than it would be called Haskell
21:25:41	<awpr>	sure, I guess a more reasonable phrasing would be that it feels a lot more comfortable coming from Haskell than C++ does
21:25:42	<roboguy_>	monads don't have the best PR in some circles, which is pretty unfortunate
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21:26:50	<unit73e>	in my crappy anedoctal experience newbies always try to somehow pretend monads are like the ; of purely functional programming and that's part of the bad PR
21:26:56	<Rembane>	roboguy_: They went for some other design choices that gave them almost the same power but without letting loose the powers of HKTs, there were some years ago now that I looked into it, so I don't remember.
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21:28:32	<roboguy_>	it really feels like there should be a good way to improve the situation with monad PR, but I'm not quite sure how. kinda frustrating!
21:29:09	<unit73e>	I just used monads until I understood how it works lol
21:29:12	<sm>	> I always forget that @ thing here is different..
21:29:12	<sm>	same here.. it would be nice if lambdabot used ! instead
21:29:13	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:17: error:
21:29:13	<lambdabot>	Pattern syntax in expression context: that@thing
21:29:13	<lambdabot>	Did you mean to enable TypeApplications?
21:29:25	<awpr>	lol
21:29:38	<sm>	bot wins again :)
21:30:02	<geekosaur>	lb actually has ? as an alternative
21:30:18	<sm>	@nick is something that is just going to keep happening for ever
21:30:28	<geekosaur>	but I don't think you can disable @
21:31:12	<yushyin>	it's a good reminder that this is IRC
21:31:16	<unit73e>	I'd just leave it. It's not annoying enough. It's like the "return" of IRC for people that come from C like languages.
21:31:50	<unit73e>	you learn in 5 min that it's not the same
21:32:20	<sm>	more people will be viewing this channel from matrix than IRC . Already are, perhaps
21:32:20	<geekosaur>	eh, I see folks who ought to be used to IRC make the same mistake
21:32:31	<sm>	I do it regularly and I'm trying not to
21:32:33	<geekosaur>	often folks who spend more time on matrix than direct irc
21:32:46	<roboguy_>	hmm is there a Discord version of lambdabot? I looked a little while ago and I didn't see anything
21:33:10	<geekosaur>	iirc there have been a few attempts at one but no success yet
21:33:14	<hpc>	[~geekosaur] real nerds use jira markup
21:33:14	<sm>	and > is just too valuable a convention for quoting replies
21:33:28	<mangoiv>	There's a bot in the haskell discord which is pretty good as far as I can tell.
21:33:46	<geekosaur>	there was at one point an attempt to refactor lb itself to better support alternatives but it failed, irc's too deeply woven into it
21:34:00	<roboguy_>	ah, I didn't even know there was a Haskell discord. I wonder if the bot could be used in other servers
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21:34:19	<mangoiv>	*FP discord (for me it's the haskell discord tho :D)
21:34:23	<roboguy_>	ah, hah
21:34:47	<mangoiv>	is it allowed/considered good practise to share links here?
21:35:02	<mangoiv>	if so, I'd send an invite.
21:35:10	<roboguy_>	I think I found it
21:37:53	<unit73e>	to bad discord has insane rules imo. you can be banned for any reason discord feels like. it's not uncommon for you to be banned simply because you were in a server discord doesn't like.
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21:39:51	<ldlework>	I'm doing the "Keypad translator" exercise in HFFP and it's throwing me for a loop
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21:41:36	<roboguy_>	unit73e: I've heard that. I mainly use it to talk with some of my friends, although I'm in a couple of other servers that I rarely really look at (which is why I'm wondering if the bot could be used in other servers)
21:41:59	<roboguy_>	ldlework: literally?
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21:46:23	<ldlework>	roboguy_: my head just hurts
21:46:40	<ldlework>	I think I need a function which will parse runs of characters or something.
21:46:53	<ldlework>	The challenge seems quite harder than the rest nearby lol
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21:52:04	<roboguy_>	ldlework: did you try to write that function?
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21:52:21	<ldlework>	i'm trying to think about how it might work
21:52:33	<ldlework>	I'm thinking that maybe mapAccumL could work?
21:52:39	<ldlework>	create some kind of type to hold the parsing state
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21:53:29	<ldlework>	when the letter changes to the one we've been seeing, then translate the number of consecutive characters (5555) into the corresponding keypad character, then establish the newly seen character as the one to expect on the next iteration
21:53:30	<ldlework>	something like this
21:53:50	<ldlework>	changes from the one we've been seeing*
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21:55:35	<awpr>	it might be more beneficial to do it without this, but I coincidentally just publish a package that'd make this easier
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21:55:39	<awpr>	@hackage rle
21:55:39	<lambdabot>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rle
21:56:23	<ldlework>	hehe
21:56:25	<roboguy_>	ldlework: you might try implementing it directly at first, without something like mapAccumL. A helper function will likely be useful
21:56:56	<ldlework>	roboguy_: in the past days, I have implemented other challenges which were refactored with mapAccumL as per the advice of some in here
21:56:56	<mangoiv>	Can anybody tell me whether there are efforts being made to get haskell running on microcontrollers? I know on old ones it was probably not feasible, but maybe more modern ones?
21:57:08	<ldlework>	roboguy_: so I have that badge already
21:57:39	<ldlework>	hehe
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21:59:05	<geekosaur>	mangoiv, microcontrollers are probably not appropriate since haskell needs garbage collection
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21:59:23	<roboguy_>	mangoiv: I don't know if this counts as too old, but there is Haskino
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22:00:02	<geekosaur>	more common is using haskell to program microcontrollers via something like atom or clash
22:00:42	<mangoiv>	geekosaur: well, I am aware of that, but Controllers nrF52840 run OSes so I thought that this might be an option
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22:01:29	<mangoiv>	I think I already looked at Haskino but didn't consider it worth digging into, so maybe I'll have to do that :D
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22:12:24	<sm>	mangoiv, https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/pjmktr/ann_copilot_35/
22:12:28	<sm>	oops
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22:20:53	<ldlework>	Hmm mapAccumL wont actually work for me here because I need to translate runs of Char into a single Char which mapAccumL doesn't fit for
22:21:30	<ldlework>	I wonder if I just need a "fold"
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22:22:27	<ldlework>	hmm
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22:31:49	<mniip>	RLE is not really a stock recursion scheme
22:32:51	<ldlework>	almost feel like i should just stop what i'm doing and learn how parser combinators work :P
22:33:50	<mniip>	an easy way to see the problem is
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22:34:03	<mniip>	if you know `rle xs` and `rle ys`, how do you compute `rle (xs ++ ys)`
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22:34:23	<mniip>	the answer is nuanced and reflects the non-trivial structure of the transformation
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22:35:58	<unit73e>	finally got to the ugly part of SDL2 examples: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/yCUq2s3R
22:36:06	<unit73e>	I really dislike that function
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22:39:54	<unit73e>	maybe some new types can fix that function
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22:43:46	<ldlework>	man fp hurts my head
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22:45:00	<unit73e>	ldlework, you'll get used to it. it's not that hard to grasp once you understand the fundamental principles, imo.
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22:45:27	<unit73e>	the issue is understandint those
22:45:41	<unit73e>	college should focus on that
22:47:57	<ldlework>	I'm 20 years into my career heh
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22:49:32	<geekosaur>	I was around 25 years in
22:49:58	<geekosaur>	although admittedly I'd been exposed to Lisp and Scheme before SML and Haskell
22:51:03	<monochrom>	It is possible that age itself hurts learning.
22:51:21	<ldlework>	I definitely think so
22:51:47	<ldlework>	I'm also an emacs user so I have also written a bunch of lisp. But I have had similar pains in the past there too.
22:51:48	<monochrom>	Wanna bet a 50yo FPer learning imperative programming for the first time feeling hurt?
22:52:22	<ldlework>	FP feels like distilling an implementation down to exactly what you want
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22:52:45	<ldlework>	I guess the challenge comes from waffling between various possibilities down at the bottom
22:53:24	<monochrom>	As a corollary, if you have 50 year experience in Pascal and then you learn C, it doesn't count as learning. Not enough difference. What's there to learn?
22:53:32	<ldlework>	I am OK thinking conceptually about the problem right until it comes to expressing that exact function which I really need
22:54:10	<ldlework>	When I did F# I leaned a lot on its support for for-loops
22:54:37	<monochrom>	Let's first correct some of your wording to illuminate the issue. s/conceptually/decompositionally/
22:54:48	<monochrom>	Ah but now we see the problem.
22:55:19	<ldlework>	Even lisp has such constructs
22:55:28	<monochrom>	Decomposing a problem with C at the back of your mind is different from decomposing a problem with Haskell at the back of your mind.
22:55:58	<ldlework>	(that's not a criticism of Haskell, only observing the for-loop has always been at arms reach for me)
22:56:07	<monochrom>	John Hughes's "why functional programming matters" in fact shows that it is the opposite kind of decomposition.
22:56:15	<geekosaur>	it is in Haskell as well. flip map{,M}
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22:57:32	<unit73e>	23 pages? I'll read it. I just starting coding and understood along the way
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22:57:48	<c_wraith>	:t for
22:57:49	<lambdabot>	(Traversable t, Applicative f) => t a -> (a -> f b) -> f (t b)
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22:58:19	<c_wraith>	geekosaur: you have to admit, that requires at least a couple new concepts coming from C. Unlike lispian for macros
22:59:09	<unit73e>	not sure if it's the best method because I had to figure out what each symbols and whatnot meant one by one
22:59:31	<unit73e>	I just find it a less boring method
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23:03:25	<unit73e>	there's no formula tbh. In java channel they recommend programming with a notepad first and I think they're crazy.
23:04:06	<geekosaur>	that actually can work with haskell
23:04:23	<unit73e>	I agree but not with java
23:04:29	<geekosaur>	there's a lot to be said for just doing some lambda calculus reductions by hand before diving in
23:04:38	<unit73e>	java is too verbose to work with notepad
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23:06:02	<monochrom>	I had classmates who programmed with pico, even in their final year.
23:06:18	<geekosaur>	a notepad, not windows notepad
23:06:24	<monochrom>	Oh heh.
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23:07:32	<unit73e>	interestingly I did learn lamdba calculus in college but I didn't know it had anything to do with programming at the time
23:08:22	<unit73e>	the teacher didn't really care and neither did I at the time lol
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23:12:17	<hpc>	i learned function composition in algebra when i was 14
23:12:55	<hpc>	it was never mentioned again, even in the cs classes
23:13:15	<hpc>	to this day i have no idea why they had it on the schedule
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23:14:23	<monochrom>	It could be used in stating the chain rule of differentiation. Then again how many teachers are capable of that level of point-free abstraction?
23:14:42	<hpc>	it wasn't mentioned even then
23:14:51	<hpc>	actually, that was another thing i had to notice on my own
23:14:58	<monochrom>	Right, they only know how to show you the pointful version.
23:15:01	<hpc>	that the chain rule was just recursion
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23:16:04	<hpc>	they also taught the "big {" syntax for pattern matching in math notation, but then never used it to show the whole differentiation formula either
23:16:20	<hpc>	they just went "here's half a dozen rules, pick which one looks right and repeat"
23:16:40	<[itchyjunk]>	:o chain rule is recursion?
23:17:17	<hpc>	derivative(f) = something * derivative(a smaller part of f)
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23:29:10	<[itchyjunk]>	oh
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23:40:19	<monochrom>	Or rather, differential calculus uses recursion.
23:40:55	<monochrom>	diff(f + g) = diff(f) + diff(g) is a recursive rule, too.
23:41:23	<monochrom>	Differentiation is one of the early recursive algorithms everyone had to learn to do by hand.
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23:44:51	<hpc>	that's a better way to explain it
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All times are in UTC on 2021-09-09.