Logs on 2021-09-16 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:51:44 | <ldlework> | i'm finding the rendering performance of gloss a bit unsatsifactory |
| 00:51:48 | <ldlework> | but i bet it's my code |
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| 01:01:43 | <Axman6> | Feel free to share some code |
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| 01:08:41 | <ldlework> | Axman6: https://github.com/dustinlacewell/cells-hs |
| 01:08:46 | <ldlework> | It's very "jerky" |
| 01:09:06 | <ldlework> | It's not the computation going on either, because I can kick it up to 1000 ticks a frame and it keeps up just fine |
| 01:09:16 | <ldlework> | It's like the rendering itself is very jerky / not vsynced |
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| 01:13:09 | <Axman6> | mrianbloom: it looks relatively easy to run an Acc a expression with either backend, what issues are you running into? |
| 01:13:30 | <awpr> | from a cursory look I think its memory usage will grow unbounded and make GCs take progressively longer over time as there's more live data on the heap to look through |
| 01:13:40 | <awpr> | (ldlework) |
| 01:14:23 | <ldlework> | awpr: i'm not sure what to do about that, since you need to generate new rows of cells as the simulation evolves, etc |
| 01:14:27 | <mrianbloom> | Axman6: I think in early debugging sessions I maybe convinced myself that aliasing PTX.runN was somehow problematic. Now I'm thinking that's a false negative. |
| 01:14:49 | <awpr> | can old rows be deleted as they get very old? |
| 01:15:00 | <ldlework> | awpr: yeah |
| 01:15:07 | <ldlework> | i don't even keep them in the World structure |
| 01:15:10 | <Axman6> | mrianbloom: yeah worth exploring further I think |
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| 01:15:31 | <Axman6> | ldlework: looks like you're reinvention a lot of Data.Bits btw |
| 01:15:40 | <ldlework> | yeah? lol |
| 01:15:51 | <Axman6> | reinventing* |
| 01:15:55 | <awpr> | oh, I missed that appendRow trims it to a bounded length |
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| 01:16:20 | <ldlework> | If I increase the resolution of a the sim a lot, it starts off fast, then gets slow after about 2 seconds, then starts to chug |
| 01:16:22 | <awpr> | could store rows as Integer or Word64 depending on size, to have 1 allocation per row instead of 2n |
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| 01:16:55 | <awpr> | well, Integer would be like n/64 rather than 1, but still |
| 01:17:03 | <ldlework> | awpr: maybe I should pregenerate every possible row ;P |
| 01:17:59 | <awpr> | if the number of rows is large, you might benefit from Data.Sequence where you can append and uncons in constant time. worse constant factors, though, so it may or may not help |
| 01:18:02 | <ldlework> | storing rows directly as numbers will complicate make having the row size be flexible I think |
| 01:18:14 | <Cajun> | are you trying to strictly stay with Lists or are you willing to use an array library for a more efficient (and simpler) implementation? |
| 01:18:20 | <mrianbloom> | Axman6: I think my main question is how to make it a compile time option without modifying any code. |
| 01:18:33 | <ldlework> | Cajun: not at all, I'm open to optimizations that I can still understand |
| 01:18:38 | <awpr> | Integer is an unbounded number of bits, and you can use testBit to access each one |
| 01:18:39 | <Cajun> | doing this with `massiv` and stencils |
| 01:18:47 | <Cajun> | *would be not too complicated |
| 01:18:54 | <mrianbloom> | Axman6: as in a user of my library can decide. |
| 01:20:01 | <Axman6> | hmm, so do you only want to compile in one backend and have a flag which decides which? |
| 01:20:04 | <ldlework> | Would another option be to parallize it? |
| 01:20:10 | <ldlework> | Like split the row in half |
| 01:20:27 | <awpr> | I'd check out how much memory it's using and how much time it's spending in GC first. if you have GC pauses, parallelizing work might not fix it |
| 01:20:49 | <Cajun> | massiv could parallelize it automatically, removes all the issues that updating a state in parallel has. it shouldnt be necessary to use massiv though |
| 01:20:49 | <Axman6> | You'll just make garbage faster! |
| 01:20:52 | <mrianbloom> | Axman6: That's correct. |
| 01:20:52 | <ldlework> | haha |
| 01:21:08 | <awpr> | https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/runtime_control.html#rts-options-to-produce-runtime-statistics |
| 01:21:47 | <Axman6> | mrianbloom: what are you exposing to the user? are you exposing Acc things or functions which are supposed to use accelerate behind the scenes? |
| 01:22:23 | <mrianbloom> | I'm exposing functions on Array representations. |
| 01:23:01 | <mrianbloom> | Axman6: So definitely behind the scenes accelerate. |
| 01:23:02 | <Axman6> | So wouldn't it be up to the user to decide how to execute those functions and make the necessary decisions in their code? |
| 01:23:05 | <Axman6> | ah ok |
| 01:23:46 | <mrianbloom> | Axman6: I mean none of the exposed functions have Acc in the type signatures. |
| 01:23:47 | <Axman6> | Well, usually this is the sort of thing you would do with a combination of cabal flags and some CPP |
| 01:24:08 | <Axman6> | as that's the only way to dynamically add dependencies |
| 01:24:16 | <Axman6> | "dynamically" at compile time |
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| 01:24:37 | <mrianbloom> | Axman6: Ok cool, that's good confirmation. I was thinking there might be another way besides cpp. |
| 01:25:30 | <geekosaur> | backpack? |
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| 01:37:27 | <ldlework> | OK made the Data.Bits refactor, https://github.com/dustinlacewell/cells-hs/blob/master/app/Main.hs#L45 |
| 01:37:29 | <ldlework> | thanks for that tip |
| 01:38:22 | <ldlework> | I'm more uncertain about my ability to use massiv |
| 01:40:39 | <zzz> | now im worried |
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| 01:42:30 | <awpr> | ldlework: I'd try running with `+RTS -s -RTS` to see how much time it's spending on GC first; there's more info in the link I sent |
| 01:42:55 | <awpr> | best to know what it's spending time on before trying to speed up any particular thing |
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| 01:43:12 | <ldlework> | awpr: I use nix, and no idea how it's build infrastructure works really |
| 01:43:19 | <ldlework> | So I'm not sure how I would add those flags :( |
| 01:43:24 | <awpr> | those are flags to the compiled binary itself |
| 01:43:29 | <ldlework> | oh weird |
| 01:44:02 | <awpr> | the GHC runtime has its own set of flags that are magically in every binary, if enabled. you might have to enable it explicitly, though |
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| 01:45:38 | <ldlework> | awpr: https://gist.github.com/dustinlacewell/466cd9c9bbf58290ef3cf8470521bca2 |
| 01:46:13 | <awpr> | wow, 0% of time in GC, was not expecting that |
| 01:46:39 | <ldlework> | awpr: are you able to run the project |
| 01:46:52 | <ldlework> | i wonder if it's just me? |
| 01:47:01 | <ldlework> | screwy linux, not using gpu or something? |
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| 01:53:16 | <awpr> | still building, but the list indexing looks like it'll be pretty slow -- every cell will traverse the row 3 times |
| 01:54:57 | <awpr> | switching to Vector Bool might speed it up a lot, since it's constant-time access |
| 01:57:12 | <awpr> | could also build and run it with profiling enabled, if you can figure out how to do that with nix (I haven't used it myself, but it's not terribly hard to profile under Stack) |
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| 02:16:11 | <awpr> | looks like all the time is going to OpenGL functions, especially matrix stack manipulation |
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| 02:21:14 | <ldlework> | awpr: maybe it is the way I reset the transform for each cell? |
| 02:21:26 | <ldlework> | i wonder why that would cause it to slow down over time though |
| 02:21:45 | <awpr> | that sure sounds consistent with the profile. I didn't run it for very long, though |
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| 02:33:51 | <ldlework> | awpr: https://i.imgur.com/rRVPkZ6.png |
| 02:35:27 | <awpr> | odd, I didn't notice any space-leaky behavior when I ran it. do you have optimizations on? |
| 02:36:18 | <ldlework> | awpr: i just added -O2 yeah |
| 02:36:28 | <ldlework> | just throwing stuff at the wall lol |
| 02:37:48 | <ldlework> | awpr: when I run it for longer, it looks like the memory flattens out |
| 02:37:49 | <ldlework> | http://logos.ldlework.com/caps/2021-09-16-02-37-35.png |
| 02:37:53 | <awpr> | my binary seems to be constant memory. it might ramp up until the row limit is reached and then plateau, does that heap profile cover after that part? |
| 02:37:55 | <ldlework> | the curve is probably filling up the grid with rows |
| 02:37:56 | <awpr> | yeah, what you just said |
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| 02:38:19 | <ldlework> | I also increased the resolution by a lot to make the effect more dramatic |
| 02:39:14 | <ldlework> | these stand out https://gist.github.com/dustinlacewell/135cf3906f0fb036e2048558cadb14f4 |
| 02:39:54 | <awpr> | the rightmost 4 columns seem to say very little time or allocation is spent on them |
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| 02:48:04 | <ldlework> | awpr: `neighborhood` is the most expensive function of my own authorship, with 4.4 individual % |
| 02:48:13 | <ldlework> | doesn't that indicate that stenciling might help? |
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| 02:49:06 | <ldlework> | beyond that, my only guess is the wasteful transforms |
| 02:49:18 | <awpr> | well it was running at 2-3fps on my machine, so making that function infinitely faster isn't gonna bring it up to 60. the time is going to the rendering much more than the world update (as much as I initially expected it to go to list indexing or GC) |
| 02:49:18 | <ldlework> | need haskell->GLSL |
| 02:49:51 | <awpr> | if matrix stack manipulation is expensive, try to do less of it |
| 02:50:14 | <ldlework> | I guess my drawing routine will have to be smarter somehow |
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| 02:50:39 | <ldlework> | the reason i'm translating to origin for each cell that's drawn, is so that i don't have to draw each cell |
| 02:50:40 | <awpr> | my vague recollection is that the matrix stack is meant for, like, loading an entire mesh under a transform, not so much to be the entire means of getting positions for every vertex |
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| 02:50:52 | <ldlework> | to avoid the transforms, i'd have to like go cell by cell |
| 02:51:01 | <ldlework> | which seems like it would mean even more transforms |
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| 02:51:42 | <awpr> | I don't really know how gloss does things unfortunately. the code looked sensible, but somehow it's changing the matrix stack a whole lot |
| 02:51:55 | <ldlework> | awpr: indeed the API for Gloss wants you to transform somewhere, then use some kind of primitive like a square of a certain size |
| 02:51:59 | <ldlework> | the square doesn't take a position |
| 02:52:32 | <awpr> | is it possible this is just pushing the limits of the number of individual things Gloss can deal with? I'm not really familiar with the library |
| 02:52:59 | <ldlework> | awpr: I believe it is using the old-style OpenGL pipeline |
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| 02:53:08 | <awpr> | yeah, it is |
| 02:53:39 | <awpr> | profile mentioned the function that pushes a singular vertex into the stream |
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| 02:56:01 | <ldlework> | I assume it would be no faster switching to hSDL |
| 02:56:03 | <ldlework> | hmm |
| 02:56:16 | <ldlework> | I could just move on with my life I guess |
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| 02:58:49 | <awpr> | it doesn't really look very aggressively performance optimized; this might just be how fast it goes with lots of tiny rectangles |
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| 03:02:03 | <awpr> | https://www.47deg.com/blog/game-of-life-haskell/ has someone doing a similar thing, and the end result is "hooray, we improved it from 2 iterations before crashing to 60 iterations before crashing", so it looks like yours is already ahead of the curve |
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| 03:20:38 | <Cajun> | Idlework: if you want to learn `massiv` (which i highly recommend as an upgrade to `repa` and a good cpu-bound upgrade to `accelerate` ) he has a 6 part talk from 2019 about the library. its quite long, around 6 hours but itll tell you the ins and outs of the library |
| 03:21:02 | <ldlework> | phew |
| 03:21:05 | <ldlework> | hit me I guess |
| 03:21:31 | <Cajun> | heres 1/6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euEacUD6jQQ |
| 03:21:35 | <ldlework> | thanks |
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| 05:43:07 | <Orbstheorem> | The more I play with `ViewPatterns`, the more I like them, but I also have to admit, it makes the code look a bit scarier x) |
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| 05:53:47 | <c_wraith> | You can use them with Pattern Synonyms to make them look much more normal |
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| 06:00:01 | <Orbstheorem> | Oh, neat! |
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| 07:04:08 | <kuribas> | I got to present my haskell project to the company. Mostly it went well, they where quite interested. They asked me to explain why I think haskell is a good fit for the project. |
| 07:05:32 | <kuribas> | One example I give was type directed parsing of the CSV, which allows you to easily parse code with good error messages. |
| 07:05:47 | <kuribas> | Their response "we can do that in lisp, you don't need haskell for that" |
| 07:06:30 | <tdammers> | I can do that in C, no need for lisp |
| 07:06:30 | <kuribas> | My claims for robustness where refuted with "those are easy fixes, we don't care". |
| 07:06:55 | <kuribas> | point is, you "can" do this in lisp/clojure, but nobody does. |
| 07:07:06 | <tdammers> | case in point, though, CSV parsing is maybe not the most compelling example |
| 07:07:22 | <Akronymus> | csv's aren't even a good format |
| 07:07:37 | <Akronymus> | escape character > escaping the range |
| 07:07:43 | <kuribas> | true, but loading CSVs into the database was the usecase for this project. |
| 07:07:47 | <tdammers> | technically, CSV isn't even a format at all, there is no standard |
| 07:07:55 | <kuribas> | and we'll go to .ods |
| 07:08:16 | <tdammers> | seriously though, CSV data is basically [[String]], so there's not much to be gained in terms of type safety |
| 07:08:49 | <Akronymus> | But if you have a separator in the data, you have to use " |
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| 07:09:06 | <Akronymus> | And if you have " in it too, you need to use "" afair |
| 07:09:09 | <kuribas> | tdammers: you need a parser [String] -> Either err a |
| 07:09:26 | <Akronymus> | Just let me do \<escape character> |
| 07:09:28 | <kuribas> | or (Map String String) -> a |
| 07:09:44 | <tdammers> | what? no |
| 07:09:58 | <tdammers> | there are only 2 special characters, you can special-case those in code |
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| 07:12:24 | <Akronymus> | tdammers `,;.:` all of those are valid for csv afair |
| 07:12:29 | <kuribas> | tdammers: but parsing a record is still better than taking a list with clojure types, and getting a stacktrace when the types don't match later. |
| 07:12:37 | <Akronymus> | Along with quoting |
| 07:13:17 | <kuribas> | three quotes, no? |
| 07:13:28 | <kuribas> | "abc" => """abc""" |
| 07:15:05 | <kuribas> | Another point was that all my queries worked the first time, and the type system even caught something that could be a subtle bug... |
| 07:15:43 | <kuribas> | Their response that it's hard to write such code, and those kind of errors are easy to fix. |
| 07:15:50 | <DigitalKiwi> | o/ ldlework |
| 07:15:57 | <kuribas> | Both of which statements I disagree with. |
| 07:16:22 | <kuribas> | 1) it's not that hard when you know what you do 2) Some of those bugs can be tricky to find. |
| 07:16:22 | <ldlework> | yo yo |
| 07:17:11 | <awpr> | kuribas: I haven't had much luck convincing people with those sorts of obviously different values that there's any value to Haskell. I've had better luck looking for people with the same values as me to begin with |
| 07:17:27 | <kuribas> | awpr: makes sense. |
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| 07:18:22 | <awpr> | but if you have unlimited effort to convince people and manage to succeed, that's awesome |
| 07:18:31 | <Akronymus> | kuribas also: the bugs can make quite expensive problems even if they are easy to fix |
| 07:19:04 | <kuribas> | the sad thing is most of the developers where quite interested, only the two leads where giving me a hard time. |
| 07:19:18 | <kuribas> | trying as hard as possible to refute any of my arguments. |
| 07:19:21 | <Akronymus> | If they want lisp, implement haskell as a DSL? /s |
| 07:19:26 | <awpr> | guerilla Haskell team! |
| 07:19:30 | <Akronymus> | On top of lisp |
| 07:20:03 | <Akronymus> | kuribas was it a thesis defense or something? |
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| 07:20:16 | <kuribas> | Akronymus: nah, a project I am doing in the company. |
| 07:20:30 | <kuribas> | It felt a bit like that yeah... |
| 07:21:21 | <tdammers> | kuribas: how can the types not match? It's all just strings. Converting those to "proper" types is something you'd do later, when you map the list-of-string CSV rows to more meaningful record types. |
| 07:21:34 | <tdammers> | I wouldn't call that "parsing" |
| 07:21:39 | <Akronymus> | Numbers? |
| 07:21:56 | <kuribas> | tdammers: I mean, the "later" is what I am talking about. |
| 07:22:15 | <kuribas> | tdammers: not the library code that takes a ByteString and returns a [[String]] |
| 07:22:24 | <tdammers> | OK |
| 07:23:11 | <kuribas> | anyway, the project is still ongoing, so if it works well and is very stable, I'll have proven my point :) |
| 07:23:32 | <kuribas> | then they'll rewrite it in clojure... |
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| 07:24:49 | <tdammers> | So you need to make the conversion explicit, and you have to somehow fail if the conversion is invalid. That goes for both Haskell and Clojure: in both cases, if the data is malformed, you have to throw (or return Nothing, or a Left Error, or however you decide to signal it) - malformed data is always going to cause a runtime error, not compile-time |
| 07:24:56 | <kuribas> | awpr: you're right, but otherwise I like the values of the company, working in renewables etc... |
| 07:25:05 | <tdammers> | so the "exception throwing" argument is a strawman |
| 07:25:12 | <tdammers> | Haskell's advantage is more subtle |
| 07:25:16 | <dminuoso> | Unless you unsafePerformIO in TemplateHaskell and load the file then, tdammers! |
| 07:25:23 | <dminuoso> | Oh wait, dont even need unsafePerformIO. |
| 07:25:24 | <kuribas> | tdammers: I am also not throwing, I collect the errors using Validation. |
| 07:25:37 | <tdammers> | dminuoso: indeed, there's runIO :: IO a -> Q a |
| 07:25:48 | <tdammers> | kuribas: you can do the same in clojure though |
| 07:26:04 | <tdammers> | kuribas: hence the "or however you want to signal it" part |
| 07:26:35 | <kuribas> | tdammers: you can do anything in any language which is turing complete. |
| 07:26:37 | <tdammers> | kuribas: the advantage that Haskell brings is that once you've done the conversion, the type system can make sure, statically, that from that point onwards, your data is valid as per the type |
| 07:26:52 | <kuribas> | indeed, I made that point. |
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| 07:28:20 | <kuribas> | IMO, it's not just about what the language can do, but also the idiomatic way to do things. |
| 07:29:07 | <kuribas> | Because in practice, people in clojure simply don't start from a single "type definition", which they use to verify the types, etc... |
| 07:29:24 | <kuribas> | Being more rigorous is *possible* in clojure, but most of the time not done. |
| 07:29:48 | <kuribas> | The honeysql libary for example *should* validate the arguments, so the generated SQL is valid, but it doesn't. |
| 07:30:20 | <tdammers> | it's all about ergonomics and meatware performance |
| 07:30:37 | <tdammers> | (which is also why the Turing Completeness argument is utter bullshit) |
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| 07:30:47 | <kuribas> | Even if the query generator is correct, some error in an unrelated part can cause the generation of an invalid query, or even a valid but simply wrong query. |
| 07:31:12 | <tdammers> | yup. welcome to the crazy world of the Consenting Adults Fallacy |
| 07:31:20 | <kuribas> | what's that? |
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| 07:43:14 | <tdammers> | a thing from the Python community, where they reject features like proper module systems, type systems, controllable mutability, etc., saying that "we're all consenting adults here, we don't need to police each other", which is of course not what any of those features are about, but the sentiments runs quite strong - not just in the Python community, but in pretty much any dynamic language |
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| 07:43:43 | <tdammers> | it's kind of a gross overestimation of the reliability and feasibility of manual diligence |
| 07:44:16 | <tdammers> | "without a type checker, how can I make sure that nobody passes the wrong arguments to this function?" - "well, duh, just don't pass the wrong arguments, ezpz" |
| 07:44:42 | <kuribas> | yeah, in our place it's called "garbage in - garbage out". |
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| 07:46:04 | <Drew[m]> | "I have an excellent and flawless plan. All it requires is to get everyone everywhere to alter their behavior." |
| 07:48:09 | <kuribas> | How am I suppose to know what is garbage in a function I didn't write, or write a year ago, and which has no type signature... |
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| 07:49:17 | <tdammers> | easy: just read the code :P |
| 07:49:52 | <dminuoso> | 09:26:37 tdammers | kuribas: the advantage that Haskell brings is that once you've done the conversion, the type system can make sure, statically, that from that point onwards, your data is valid as per the type |
| 07:50:16 | <dminuoso> | Having seen a talk by Richard Hickey, Im nearly convinced that your averge clojure fan will not care about that in the slightest. |
| 07:50:56 | <kuribas> | yeah |
| 07:51:00 | <tdammers> | having written clojure professionally for a year and a half, I'm gonna say you're probably right |
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| 08:46:42 | <ldlework> | |
| 08:46:51 | <ldlework> | I just got hylide working and i'm kind of excited |
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| 08:56:00 | <mateusz> | Hi! I want to understand deeper why `untest` function cannot compile due to type error. The question is what should I look for in order to understand that? data Test = X Int | Y String deriving Show |
| 08:56:01 | <mateusz> | untest val = case val of ; X i -> i ; Y s -> s |
| 08:57:13 | <__monty__> | mateusz: The first step is really reading the type error. |
| 08:57:19 | <__monty__> | @where paste |
| 08:57:19 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 08:57:33 | <__monty__> | Output includes the errors : ) |
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| 08:58:48 | <dminuoso> | mateusz: The only way to write something as generic as that, is with GADTs. |
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| 08:59:24 | <mateusz> | So error says like types don't match, and its probably due to type inference but I wonder if there is any way in standard Haskell (without extensions) to manually annotate that https://paste.tomsmeding.com/2aHWTmAo |
| 08:59:37 | <dminuoso> | The thing is |
| 08:59:45 | <dminuoso> | What do you expect the return type of that function? |
| 09:00:58 | <mateusz> | What I can't understand is that if I annotate this as: `Test -> a` it doesnt work, I would expect type to be a, and based on expression either Int or String |
| 09:01:11 | <dminuoso> | You can do this with GADTs. |
| 09:01:17 | <dminuoso> | % data Test a where X :: Int -> Test Int; Y :: String -> Test String |
| 09:01:18 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
| 09:01:28 | <dminuoso> | % untest val = case val of; X i -> i; Y s -> s |
| 09:01:28 | <yahb> | dminuoso: ; <interactive>:24:34: error:; * Couldn't match expected type `p' with actual type `Int'; `p' is untouchable inside the constraints: a ~ Int bound by a pattern with constructor: X :: Int -> Test Int, in a case alternative at <interactive>:24:27-29; `p' is a rigid type variable bound by; the inferred type of untest :: Test a -> p; at <interactive>:24:1-44; Possible |
| 09:01:37 | <dminuoso> | Hold on |
| 09:02:14 | <__monty__> | mateusz: But if the return type were 'a' then someone calling the function would get to choose the type. How can your function return a value of any type it is asked for starting from a Test? |
| 09:02:24 | <mateusz> | thanks, will look into that later but I think I should understand why it throws error before I dive into GADTs, any resource or search keyword which might help in it? |
| 09:02:39 | <dminuoso> | % untest :: Test a -> a; untest val = case val of; X i -> i; Y s -> s |
| 09:02:39 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
| 09:02:42 | <dminuoso> | mateusz: ^- there. |
| 09:03:00 | <kuribas> | mateusz: the idiomatic way is to return a sumtype. |
| 09:03:08 | <awpr> | a) can't infer stuff across GADT constructor matches, but b) I doubt GADTs are the most helpful answer here, this seems like a case of missing some key aspects of type checking |
| 09:03:14 | <dminuoso> | mateusz: Your expectation is *exactly* what GADTs fill. :) |
| 09:03:28 | <kuribas> | or just go to idris :) |
| 09:03:34 | <dminuoso> | Then you can annotate it as `Test a -> a` exactly. |
| 09:03:52 | <dminuoso> | GADTs are a very intuitive and almost obvious conclusion of ADTs, really. |
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| 09:04:40 | <dminuoso> | mateusz: So part of the reason without GADTs is the way that type variables work. A type variable is something the caller/consumer must chose. |
| 09:04:48 | <awpr> | sure, but they're probably not the next step after "why doesn't this function work as `forall a. Test -> a`?" |
| 09:04:56 | <dminuoso> | Let's for the same of argument argue that you coudl write it as: |
| 09:05:03 | <dminuoso> | untest :: Test -> a; untest = ... |
| 09:05:16 | <dminuoso> | That means, the *consumer* of untest can pick an arbitrary type for `a` |
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| 09:05:27 | <dminuoso> | Irrespective of what the value of Test is. |
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| 09:06:08 | <dminuoso> | So you coudl write something like: |
| 09:06:18 | <kuribas> | the cps version is still "simple" haskell, the GADT is not. |
| 09:06:20 | <dminuoso> | `untest (Y "String") :: Float` |
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| 09:06:54 | <dminuoso> | Which is of course non-sense. |
| 09:07:45 | <mateusz> | ok so the question is where from comes the constaint of not typing this union like: `Test -> [Int|String]`? Is it from system f? |
| 09:08:05 | <mateusz> | kuribas what you mean by cps? |
| 09:08:11 | <kuribas> | mateusz: Continuation passing style |
| 09:08:25 | <kuribas> | mateusz: That would be "Text -> Either Int String" |
| 09:08:32 | <__monty__> | mateusz: It's because that would mean the caller gets to pick whether the return type is Int or String *regardless* of what the input Test value is. |
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| 09:09:19 | <kuribas> | mateusz: untest :: Text -> (Int -> a) -> (String -> a) -> a |
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| 09:09:29 | <__monty__> | kuribas: Test, not Text. |
| 09:09:48 | <kuribas> | __monty__: yeah. Muscle memory |
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| 09:12:00 | <awpr> | wow, QuickCheck discovered the Haskell `\&` syntax all on its own and showed me a bug regarding it |
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| 09:12:22 | <mateusz> | kuribas i don't get this example, why two additional args? |
| 09:12:33 | <kuribas> | mateusz: one for each case |
| 09:13:13 | <kuribas> | mateusz: but note that untest doesn't do anything useful. |
| 09:13:16 | <mateusz> | hmm this example shows how to make polymorphic a possible with untest function? |
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| 09:13:33 | <mateusz> | polymorphic `a` |
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| 09:13:50 | <kuribas> | mateusz: no, `a` is the return type of the continuation. |
| 09:14:13 | <kuribas> | see for example the either function |
| 09:14:14 | <kuribas> | :t either |
| 09:14:15 | <lambdabot> | (a -> c) -> (b -> c) -> Either a b -> c |
| 09:14:52 | <kuribas> | it's case matching on each case. |
| 09:15:01 | <kuribas> | And you get a different continuation for each. |
| 09:15:19 | <mateusz> | why different if both return `c`? |
| 09:15:45 | <mateusz> | I cant handle differently way from a/b to c |
| 09:15:48 | <kuribas> | > either show id $ (Left 2 :: Either Int String) |
| 09:15:50 | <lambdabot> | "2" |
| 09:16:01 | <kuribas> | > either show id $ (Right "2" :: Either Int String) |
| 09:16:03 | <lambdabot> | "2" |
| 09:16:52 | <kuribas> | mateusz: but note that normally you just pattern match. either just makes the code a bit shorter. |
| 09:17:33 | <kuribas> | > case (Left 2 :: Either Int String) of Left i -> show i; Right s -> s |
| 09:17:35 | <lambdabot> | "2" |
| 09:18:16 | <kuribas> | mateusz: you have to handle them differently, since they have different types. |
| 09:19:01 | <__monty__> | mateusz: Inference example, `\x -> toUpper (id x) :: Char -> Char`, what is the inferred type of `id` here? |
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| 09:20:40 | <mateusz> | __monty__ Char? |
| 09:21:02 | <__monty__> | No, id is a function, so the type has to have an `->`. |
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| 09:21:26 | <mateusz> | :D i meant `Char->Char` because its derived from lambda annotation |
| 09:21:47 | <__monty__> | And do you see where that Char is coming from? |
| 09:22:13 | <__monty__> | You're inferring it from the *output* side a in `a -> a`, right? Not the input side? |
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| 09:22:18 | <mateusz> | I think yes, `x` can be Char exclusively so id has to return Char |
| 09:22:37 | <mateusz> | I inferred from input |
| 09:22:41 | <__monty__> | How do you know x can only be Char? |
| 09:22:43 | <mateusz> | input to lambda |
| 09:22:51 | <__monty__> | Ah, crap. |
| 09:22:54 | <mateusz> | from the annotation for lambda: `Char->Char` |
| 09:22:58 | <__monty__> | Shouldn't have put a signature on it >.< |
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| 09:23:19 | <__monty__> | Let's just pretend I gave you `toUpper . id`. |
| 09:24:50 | <__monty__> | Do you see how the inference for the type of id would be the same even though you have no information about the type of the input? |
| 09:25:36 | <mateusz> | given that toUpper is `Char->Char` and id `a->a`, contraint comes from toUpper which expect `Char` as input so i think it would be `Char->Char` |
| 09:25:46 | <__monty__> | Exactly. |
| 09:25:56 | <__monty__> | How about `toUpper . untest`? |
| 09:26:00 | <mateusz> | Are there any priorities in inference rules? |
| 09:26:06 | <mateusz> | wow give me sec |
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| 09:31:14 | <mateusz> | consider `toUpper :: Text->Text`, OverloadedStrings, I can't pick untest implementation which dosnt raise type error |
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| 09:32:03 | <mateusz> | or will define untestY as function which returns always Text, so it matches |
| 09:32:33 | <mateusz> | __monty__ |
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| 09:34:47 | <__monty__> | mateusz: Let's take `Data.Char.toUpper . untest`. OverloadedStrings is only complicating matters. |
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| 09:35:46 | <mateusz> | so not sure which implementation of untest you picked, the one I proposed (`Test -> a`) which doesnt compile? |
| 09:35:54 | <__monty__> | Yeah. |
| 09:36:33 | <mateusz> | ok, so `Test -> Char` but it doesnt sound right to me becaouse untest may also return Int which is unhandled |
| 09:36:46 | <__monty__> | No, it's exactly correct. |
| 09:37:02 | <__monty__> | Do you see how I as a user of your untest function get to constrain the return type? |
| 09:37:38 | <__monty__> | You seemed to think that as the definer of untest you got to fill in the `a`, but that's not the case. |
| 09:38:04 | <__monty__> | If you say your function returns `a` it *really* has to be able to return any type. |
| 09:38:41 | <mateusz> | I think I start to understand that |
| 09:38:49 | <__monty__> | Just like how when you say a function takes input type `a` it has to actually be able to deal with *any* value I can give it. |
| 09:38:53 | ← | Everything parts (~Everythin@37.115.210.35) () |
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| 09:41:05 | <mateusz> | So I wonder if there you know about any formal description of this so I can revise it in moments of doubt? |
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| 09:50:52 | <kuribas> | mateusz: it's easy to confuse the type variable `a` with a supertype, or Any type. But it really is just a variable, it stands for another type. |
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| 09:52:24 | <__monty__> | Unfortunately I don't have a good reference, it's the kind of thing you internalize and forget where you learned about it, though for me that was here : ) |
| 09:52:37 | <kuribas> | types and programming languages? |
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| 09:53:34 | <mateusz> | thanks all for help, will look into that @kur |
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| 09:58:23 | <__monty__> | Quite a heavy reference for something like this : ) |
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| 10:10:51 | <kuribas> | yeah, a basic haskell course should explain it as well. |
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| 10:21:37 | <DigitalKiwi> | i missed half of that conversation and thought __monty__ said this irc channel was quite a heavy reference not tapl and i think that would be more correct lol |
| 10:21:59 | <kuribas> | ah right |
| 10:22:18 | <DigitalKiwi> | at least if i set out to read tapl i could do it in a finite amount of time |
| 10:22:42 | <DigitalKiwi> | >10 years probably and i'm still reading this channel |
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| 10:24:29 | <kuribas> | this channel good when you are stuck. |
| 10:24:43 | <kuribas> | But you really should read a book if you are serious with learning. |
| 10:25:03 | <DigitalKiwi> | is it bad when i am not stuck |
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| 11:46:52 | <GuestTHU16_1> | how can the + operator be prefix |
| 11:47:01 | <GuestTHU16_1> | like + a b |
| 11:47:11 | <sshine> | (+) a b |
| 11:47:18 | <sshine> | > (+) 1 2 |
| 11:47:20 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
| 11:47:24 | <GuestTHU16_1> | ok. |
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| 11:48:02 | <hpc> | and for completeness, if you have a "lettery" identifier you can do a `plus` b |
| 11:48:07 | <hpc> | to infix it |
| 11:48:42 | <_________> | what about postfix ? |
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| 11:49:06 | <sshine> | they were never that popular |
| 11:49:40 | <GuestTHU16_1> | Prelude> 3 `plus` 4 |
| 11:49:41 | <GuestTHU16_1> | <interactive>:32:4: error: |
| 11:49:41 | <GuestTHU16_1> | Variable not in scope: plus :: Integer -> Integer -> t |
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| 11:50:49 | <sshine> | :t (":" `isPrefixOf`) |
| 11:50:50 | <lambdabot> | [Char] -> Bool |
| 11:51:01 | <sshine> | not exactly postfix, but sort of. |
| 11:51:14 | <geekosaur> | there's an extension for "postfix" that is pretty limited |
| 11:51:58 | <sshine> | yeah, I went looking for it, and the first page of search results wasn't even that useful, so I'm guessing people have stopped using it. |
| 11:52:04 | <geekosaur> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/rebindable_syntax.html#postfix-operators |
| 11:52:25 | <geekosaur> | not sure they ever really used it |
| 11:52:40 | <sshine> | oh, uhm. yeah. |
| 11:52:52 | <geekosaur> | (also, since 7.10? that was in 6.6) |
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| 11:54:01 | <sshine> | > let (!) n = product [1..n] in (5 !) |
| 11:54:02 | <lambdabot> | 120 |
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| 11:54:32 | <_________> | > let (+) l = sum l in ([1..5] +) |
| 11:54:34 | <lambdabot> | 15 |
| 11:54:49 | <_________> | nice |
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| 11:56:30 | <sshine> | _________, I've used this more to create more readable function names, e.g. (":" `isPrefixOf`) vs. isPrefixOf ":" (since it looks like "something is prefix of ":", when in fact it is ":" that is prefix of something). |
| 11:57:58 | <sshine> | _________, so normally you might write x `isPrefixOf` y, but in cases where you only do partial application, rather than e.g. 'any (\y -> x `isPrefixOf` y) ys' or 'any (isPrefixOf x) ys', I prefer 'any (x `isPrefixOf`) ys'. |
| 11:58:46 | <sshine> | _________, having actual postfix operators like '!' to signify factorial is pretty rarely useful, so you don't really see a bunch of functions grow out of that idea. |
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| 11:59:44 | <sshine> | _________, have you seen the monkey operator? (:[]) |
| 11:59:59 | <sshine> | > let monkey = (:[]) in monkey 5 |
| 12:00:00 | <lambdabot> | [5] |
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| 12:03:29 | <_________> | > let (+) = sum, (*) = product in ((([1,2,3] +) [6,7] :) *) |
| 12:03:30 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:14: error: parse error on input ‘,’ |
| 12:03:40 | <_________> | > let (+) = sum in let (*) = product in ((([1,2,3] +) [6,7] :) *) |
| 12:03:42 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 12:03:42 | <lambdabot> | • Could not deduce (Num a0) |
| 12:03:42 | <lambdabot> | from the context: (Foldable ((->) [a]), Num a1, Num ([a1] -> a), |
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| 12:26:44 | <sshine> | > let (┻━┻) = intersperse 'f'; ノಠ益ಠノ = "Python" in (ノಠ益ಠノ ┻━┻) |
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| 12:26:45 | <lambdabot> | "Pfyftfhfofn" |
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| 12:28:39 | <Hecate> | https://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode14.0.0/ it's out! |
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| 12:30:42 | <sshine> | 🥳 𝕪𝕒𝕪! |
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| 12:40:20 | <sshine> | wow, you can sponsor a unicode character: https://www.unicode.org/consortium/adopt-a-character.html |
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| 12:56:05 | <Hecate> | % scanl1 (+) . map (succ . length) $ [["lol", "mdr", "haha"], ["blah", "bleh"]] |
| 12:56:05 | <yahb> | Hecate: [4,7] |
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| 12:59:53 | <sshine> | > ('o':) . pure . chr . foldl1 (\x y -> 10*x+y) . scanl1 (+) . map (succ . length) $ [["lol", "mdr", "haha"], ["blah", "bleh"]] |
| 12:59:54 | <lambdabot> | "o/" |
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| 13:50:21 | <kuribas> | We are getting this error on macOs: Undefined symbols for architecture x86_64: > "___darwin_check_fd_set_overflow", referenced from: > _awaitEvent in libHSrts.a(Select.o) > ld: symbol(s) not found for architecture x86_64 > clang: error: linker command failed with exit code 1 (use -v to see invocation) > `gcc' failed in phase `Linker'. (Exit code: 1) |
| 13:53:21 | <maerwald> | kuribas: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/19950 |
| 13:53:43 | <maerwald> | seems you're not running 8.10.7 |
| 13:55:17 | <kuribas> | ghc? |
| 13:55:27 | <maerwald> | yeah |
| 13:56:11 | <kuribas> | 8.10.7 |
| 13:56:17 | <kuribas> | 8.10.6 sorry |
| 13:56:20 | <maerwald> | yeah |
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| 13:59:43 | <kuribas> | isn't it risky to run bleeding edge? |
| 13:59:52 | <kuribas> | this is what I don't like about stack. |
| 14:01:02 | <maerwald> | kuribas: you can use my stack ghc install hooks :p |
| 14:01:15 | <maerwald> | but it's not upstreamed |
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| 14:04:05 | <maerwald> | allows you to provide a shell script that performs installation/discovery of ghc |
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| 14:04:27 | <maerwald> | so the shell script gets "need 8.10.6" as input and you can just install 8.10.7 instead |
| 14:04:58 | <maerwald> | micro version barely matters for dependency resolution anyway |
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| 14:06:41 | <maerwald> | https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghcup/unofficial-bindists/stack/2.7.3.1/ |
| 14:06:47 | <maerwald> | example hook https://paste.tomsmeding.com/NI4H4xT3 |
| 14:06:58 | <maerwald> | needs to be placed in ~/.stack/hooks/ |
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| 14:08:53 | <Drew[m]> | I want to see if a package can build on a platform it doesn't currently support, but the test suite absolutely cannot be built on this thanks to some dependencies platform. Is it the default behavior of cabal to try to resolve test suite dependencies even if I specifically ask to build just the package library component? |
| 14:09:04 | <Drew[m]> | Because that's what this package is currently doing |
| 14:09:22 | <maerwald> | Drew[m]: maybe there's stuff in cabal.project? |
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| 14:11:10 | <Drew[m]> | the cabal.project file lists the test suite dependency package that can't be build under "packages" |
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| 14:11:55 | <Drew[m]> | Should that matter if I specifically ask to build a specific component of a different package in the project? |
| 14:12:09 | <maerwald> | all depends |
| 14:12:21 | <maerwald> | hard to say without seeing the project |
| 14:13:56 | <Drew[m]> | The project is reflex-dom |
| 14:13:58 | <Drew[m]> | https://github.com/reflex-frp/reflex-dom |
| 14:14:38 | <Drew[m]> | From the top level folder I'm trying to execute `cabal build reflex-dom-core:lib:reflex-dom-core -f +use-warp --dry-run` |
| 14:14:59 | <Drew[m]> | I'm not sure my component identifier syntax is right |
| 14:15:48 | <maerwald> | `--disable-tests`? |
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| 14:18:41 | <Drew[m]> | As in `cabal build reflex-dom-core:lib:reflex-dom-core -f +use-warp --disable-tests`? |
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| 14:18:47 | <maerwald> | yeah |
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| 14:20:33 | <Drew[m]> | I just tried it and it's still failing in dependency resolution, referring to dependencies that don't seem to belong to `reflex-dom-core`'s library |
| 14:20:35 | <Drew[m]> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/0YiZEKmR |
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| 14:22:07 | <Drew[m]> | So here's a thing, there's a project file: cabal.project-nogtk |
| 14:22:12 | <Drew[m]> | It turns off some flags |
| 14:22:19 | <Drew[m]> | If you use it, it works |
| 14:22:39 | <maerwald> | that file just removes the test stuff from packages |
| 14:22:42 | <Drew[m]> | What I want to know is how those flags are disabling this dependency |
| 14:23:36 | <Drew[m]> | So those package dependencies have to be satisfied even if I'm building a different package in the project? |
| 14:23:44 | <maerwald> | usually not |
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| 14:25:05 | <infinisil> | A couple days ago I asked for help about a problem where a program would take multiple minutes to complete a very small amount of work, but turning on profiling made it finish instantly, leaving me unable to profile it, merijn was involved in the discussion |
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| 14:25:43 | <infinisil> | Update for that: It turns out https://hackage.haskell.org/package/concise-0.1.0.1/docs/Control-Lens-Cons-Extras.html was the cause of it, which uses a combination of NOINLINE and rewrite rules |
| 14:26:29 | <infinisil> | I submitted a fix for the library that uses this here, which has more discussion on this problem: https://github.com/frasertweedale/hs-jose/pull/103 |
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| 14:33:26 | <Franciman> | haskell sux |
| 14:33:36 | <Franciman> | sorry I had to get a fast answer |
| 14:33:37 | <Drew[m]> | maerwald: curious! I wish I could figure out why |
| 14:33:40 | <Franciman> | ok it work |
| 14:33:43 | <Franciman> | :P |
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| 14:42:48 | <xstill> | hi, is there any chance downloads.haskell.org/debian will contain bullseye binaries any time soon? |
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| 14:47:54 | <kuribas> | Franciman: it does... but other language suck more... |
| 14:48:02 | <kuribas> | maerwaldthanks! |
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| 16:28:48 | <Drew[m]> | Ok so after doing my own test, it turns out that by default cabal automatically checks the dependencies of all packages in a project when resolving dependencies to build just one |
| 16:29:15 | <Drew[m]> | And I need to figure out a way to say I don't want that |
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| 16:59:25 | <timCF> | Hello! Is there any good combinator libraries for Aeson to transform/compose `Value` AST data? For example I need to apply filter to `Value` in case where it's an object and get new object `Value` where `Null` value fields are removed. Maybe I can use `lens-aeson` for this, but I don't know how exactly |
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| 17:00:00 | <sm> | congrats infinisil |
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| 17:01:00 | <infinisil> | :D |
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| 17:11:41 | <carbolymer> | how can I make this work: https://bpa.st/U5FA ? |
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| 17:16:50 | <carbolymer> | why ghc tries to decude (Exception e10) when there's a constraint on exception from E.try already |
| 17:18:05 | <sm> | plot twist! "Happily, I am involved with a new build system, the next generation of Buck." --https://neilmitchell.blogspot.com/2021/09/huge-project-build-systems.html |
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| 17:18:33 | <geekosaur> | carbolymer, that usually means it can't unify e10 with what you expect it to |
| 17:19:00 | <carbolymer> | yeah, but why, and can I work around that? |
| 17:19:14 | <geekosaur> | but I'm not familiar with protolude or can-i-haz so I can't help much |
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| 17:23:57 | <sm> | incidentally, https://github.com/bazelbuild/starlark looks kind of useful, I wonder if there's any start at a haskell implementation |
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| 17:39:01 | <sclv> | Drew[m]: why are you in that situation to begin with? |
| 17:39:56 | <sclv> | ah i see |
| 17:40:18 | <sclv> | so, if the test deps are in test stanzas, and you explicitly disable testing, it won't solve for the test deps |
| 17:42:08 | <sclv> | otherwise, just change the project file to not include the stuff you don't want to build |
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| 17:55:49 | <dminuoso> | @tell timCF You can work on Value directly, it's just an ADT. |
| 17:55:49 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
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| 18:03:45 | <timCF> | Is there some class similar to `Num`, but safe to use with `Natural` numbers? For example subtract method should be something like `(-) :: a -> a -> Either Error a`? |
| 18:04:06 | <geekosaur> | not currently |
| 18:05:38 | <timCF> | probably I'll do my own locally in project then :) |
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| 18:07:06 | <dminuoso> | timCF: Regarding the earlier Value question, you could then write a simple recursive function. |
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| 18:10:41 | <timCF> | Yeah, already did it) Just thought it could be done "smarter" with some sort of generic lens/prism magic https://github.com/tkachuk-labs/bitfinex-client/blob/3b96cff21cd06a8f1c44e7657a17e6a9ce67d21f/src/BitfinexClient/Util.hs#L26-L35 |
| 18:11:08 | <dminuoso> | Nothing as concise |
| 18:11:59 | <dminuoso> | You could perhaps do something with Plated? |
| 18:12:18 | <dminuoso> | If lens-aeson has an instance for that |
| 18:12:37 | <dminuoso> | Oh it does! |
| 18:13:10 | <dminuoso> | Though I think it would rather require writing a custom Plated instance |
| 18:13:16 | <kuribas> | timCF: golfing, are we? |
| 18:14:36 | <timCF> | kuribas: golfing? |
| 18:14:59 | <kuribas> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_golf |
| 18:15:20 | <carbolymer> | geekosaur: I've removed can-i-haz and Protolude for readability, maybe you have any ideas now: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/69213328/lift-io-exception-into-monaderror-with-automatic-mapping |
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| 18:16:35 | <dminuoso> | timCF: If at all, it seems `rewrite` or `transformOf` together with `plate` would be the way to go. |
| 18:17:38 | <timCF> | kuribas: well, seems like I'm not that good in Haskell yet to do golfing) |
| 18:17:46 | <dminuoso> | timCF: Ah I think I got it. |
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| 18:18:23 | <geekosaur> | carbolymer, I think multiparameter type classes don't work that way, you really need either functional dependencies or type families to make them work the way you expect |
| 18:18:43 | <carbolymer> | hmm |
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| 18:19:44 | <geekosaur> | and just because you have only one instance doesn't mean there can't be others (typeclasses operate under an open world assumption because separate compilation means someone could theoretically add an additional instance later) |
| 18:19:49 | <carbolymer> | that would enforce only one mapping allowed a -> b in Injection instance |
| 18:19:56 | <carbolymer> | I guess I can live with that |
| 18:20:15 | <geekosaur> | and only the linker would know, not the conmpiler |
| 18:20:17 | <carbolymer> | geekosaur: exactly, I think I start seeing it now |
| 18:20:37 | <dminuoso> | timCF: If you want this without the explicit recursion, you can use plain `rewrite` |
| 18:21:02 | <awpr> | carbolymer: the other potential answer is that the error is really more of a warning, and you can turn on `AllowAmbiguousTypes` and `TypeApplications` to use it |
| 18:21:25 | <timCF> | dminuoso: I'll take a look to what actually `plate` is first I guess) I feel like I'm missing a lot of profit ignoring lens-related stuff "for simplicity" in spite of programming in Haskell for already 2 years |
| 18:21:44 | <carbolymer> | awpr: is AllowAmbiguousTypes a safe extension to just turn it on and go with it hoping that all the magic will happen? |
| 18:21:58 | <kuribas> | timCF: simple is better |
| 18:22:07 | <awpr> | the error is just saying it can't figure out what exception type it should `try` on based on the argument and return types, and call sites will need help in the form of `TypeApplications` |
| 18:22:27 | <dminuoso> | timCF: So maybe something like `rewrite (\case of Object o -> HM.filter (/= Null) o; Array v -> V.filter (/= Null) v; r -> r ) tree)` |
| 18:22:46 | <awpr> | I generally don't hesitate to turn on `AllowAmbiguousTypes`; it basically just means "hey, you can't use this without `TypeApplications`, are you sure that's what you wanted?" |
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| 18:23:04 | <carbolymer> | awpr: sounds useful |
| 18:23:08 | <dminuoso> | timCF: Plated is just a typeclass in which you can have a `Traversal' a a` that knows how to extract self-similar children. |
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| 18:23:19 | <dminuoso> | Together with a bunch of combinators that let you sort of recursion-style work with that |
| 18:23:37 | <dminuoso> | Like `rewrite` |
| 18:24:26 | <timCF> | dminuoso: looks cool, thanks! |
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| 18:25:33 | <dminuoso> | So for instance, to turn a tree of integers into a list, you can just write `universe tree` |
| 18:26:39 | <dminuoso> | But this is only an almost meaningless example. Plated is very powerful to work with such tree-like data. |
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| 18:30:18 | <Cajun> | `universe tree` sounds deeply metaphorical :P |
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| 19:15:38 | <awpr> | informal opinion-gathering: would you be put off from using a pretty-printing library if its instance for String printed it as a list of Chars? I'm torn on whether to implement the typeclass trickery to special-case Strings among other lists -- it complicates the class a bit, and I'm tempted to leave it out to subtly discourage using String |
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| 19:27:20 | <dminuoso> | I would be, yes. |
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| 19:27:48 | <dminuoso> | It depends a bit on the ergonmoics of the library |
| 19:29:49 | <dminuoso> | Actually let me go back and rephrase. |
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| 19:30:10 | <dminuoso> | Personally I dont use typeclass instances much with `prettyprinter`, its mostly custom `ppr*` functions because most things dont have a canonical representation. |
| 19:30:28 | <dminuoso> | In that sense, having a dedicated pprText and pprString function would probably be fine. |
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| 19:31:26 | <geekosaur> | in the only program I have that does prettyprinting I use custom functions as well |
| 19:33:12 | <geekosaur> | come to think of it, two programs and the other one uses custom functions as well (DebugEvent in xmonad-contrib) |
| 19:33:53 | <awpr> | so the main thing it provides is "debug-style" derived instances printing types as mostly-valid-Haskell syntax, along with structured diffing for tests. if you're carefully constructing user-facing output documents, you probably wouldn't use this, unless the "users" are people inspecting test failures or are Haskell developers |
| 19:34:30 | <awpr> | the present issue is that it'd print String fields in records as lists of Char, for example (but Text as really nicely formatted string literals) |
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| 19:35:04 | <geekosaur> | I'd actually prefer to support both forms |
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| 19:35:36 | <geekosaur> | although admittedly the main reason is things like (Mega)Parsec that use lists when they ought to be using Sets |
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| 19:37:06 | <awpr> | it'd be even more effort to support both, I'd have to grow a configuration mechanism just for that individual choice |
| 19:37:37 | <geekosaur> | that's one advantage of ppr* functions though, I can just use the one that fits the purpose |
| 19:38:13 | <awpr> | yeah, you should use explicit functions if you're hand-crafting documents for well-maintained user-facing output |
| 19:38:37 | <geekosaur> | come to think of it, String's already going through this with Show because of people who want it to display Unicode "properly" |
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| 19:59:54 | <awpr> | hmm, yeah, at the moment I just have it doing decimal escapes the same way Show currently does |
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| 20:08:37 | <awpr> | it's a bit tricky, since depending on the system locale, the runtime might just blow up if you try to output non-ASCII characters, so if it unconditionally includes those, it'll not work in certain locales, but if it's conditional, you have to do IO to figure out whether it's supported and then plumb that around everywhere |
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| 20:09:58 | <Cajun> | well you could do what one of those networking packages does and use `unsafePerformIO` to get an `IORef` instead of an `IO (IORef)` which will be used as a default config every time its requested |
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| 20:11:58 | <awpr> | yeah, I guess so, but global unsafePerformIOs make me feel a bit dirty. and it's still just a best guess, since what's actually relevant IIUC is the encoding of the particular handle the text will be output to -- which is _probably_ the system locale, but maybe not always |
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| 20:14:23 | <sneedsfeed> | In imperative programming I rely a lot on adding random little printouts into loops to see whats going on in there. Is there anything even sort of analogous to that when writing recursive functions? |
| 20:14:44 | <geekosaur> | I don't think the runtime supports per-handle locales (yet?) |
| 20:15:05 | <awpr> | sneedsfeed: yes, Debug.Trace.trace; it can be a bit subtle understanding when they actually happen if you're not used to lazy evaluation, though |
| 20:15:06 | <geekosaur> | sneedsfeed, there is Debug.Trace |
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| 20:16:02 | <Cajun> | you may not always want to fallback to using Debug.Trace unless you really have no idea whats happening, most of the time you can reason about what something does. there are times when its really useful though, i just havent used it much myself |
| 20:16:05 | <awpr> | geekosaur: hmm, I'll have to read the source |
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| 20:16:53 | <geekosaur> | I didn't see anything in System.IO; there might be some lower level stuff in GHC.IO.Handle though |
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| 20:17:15 | <awpr> | there are multiple fields in Handle that look like they're meant to support handle-granularity text encodings |
| 20:17:26 | <Cajun> | awpr: well you can provide both methods, passing around some manager to each function (this is tarting to sound like Reader though). heres the code i was thinking of: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/o4vzbVzg |
| 20:17:28 | <sneedsfeed> | Cajun thats probably true. |
| 20:18:14 | <awpr> | yes, that's possible, it's just that it doesn't actually fix the issue for real |
| 20:18:41 | <awpr> | so far I've just dodged the issue by sticking to decimal escapes |
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| 20:20:07 | <awpr> | seems like the root of the problem is that the way Haskell libraries are currently set up has transparent locale-sensitivity only up to the text encoding level, and not above, with no good story for locale-sensitive /content/ that I'm aware of |
| 20:20:40 | <awpr> | which basically just means outputting non-ASCII characters is banned unless you're willing to crash on basic locales |
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| 20:20:59 | <awpr> | (or explicitly UTF-8 them and output bytes rather than text) |
| 20:21:02 | sm | uses unsafePerformIO to get info for debug tracing (color support, --debug flag, etc), it works well |
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| 20:30:43 | <awpr> | I guess nothing's stopping me from adding a config record, and having the debug utilities infer the config by default |
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| 20:31:20 | <awpr> | just concerned it'll open the floodgates to an enormous config record with a bunch of random fields for every type, if I'm not careful of how it's designed |
| 20:35:14 | <Cale> | awpr: Just be careful about which things need what config, and make types accordingly. Then you might end up with a config record consisting of several other config records, and it's actually enormous at the top level, but gets split up into smaller types quickly. |
| 20:35:39 | <awpr> | but this is in the context of a typeclass method |
| 20:35:41 | <Cale> | (but I only read your last few messages, so I might be missing context) |
| 20:35:47 | <geekosaur> | there's also a Map indexed by Typeable |
| 20:36:05 | <sneedsfeed> | I just found this. You guys should consider pointing every newby you encounter at this. https://colah.github.io/posts/2015-02-DataList-Illustrated/ |
| 20:36:07 | <geekosaur> | more precisely TypeRep |
| 20:36:32 | <awpr> | geekosaur: yeah, I tried that approach for overriding individual instances, but decided it was too much and was just complicating things more than I wanted |
| 20:38:31 | <awpr> | it turns out the locale-sensitive escaping logic would live entirely in renderers and not in the classes, though, so there are finitely many constructs to configure at the point where I'd actually need the configuration, and I can probably get away with zero configuration for the instances |
| 20:43:46 | → | kuribas joins (~user@ptr-25vy0i9fqiblx2l1e59.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) |
| 20:44:26 | <kuribas> | Are there ways to have multifunctors? Like three or more functors in one type? |
| 20:44:51 | <awpr> | like Bifunctor for >2? |
| 20:45:13 | <kuribas> | yeah :) |
| 20:45:20 | <kuribas> | NFunctor? |
| 20:45:52 | <awpr> | not aware of one, but you can have standalone functions to map over earlier type parameters |
| 20:46:03 | <kuribas> | perhaps with newtypes to swap type variables? |
| 20:46:19 | <awpr> | yeah, that's one approach I played with a while back. it's... okay |
| 20:46:47 | <awpr> | gets a bit tedious, but IIRC it largely works |
| 20:48:40 | × | favonia quits (~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 20:49:41 | <Cale> | kuribas: There is a way, by generalising Functor to be between an arbitrary pair of categories |
| 20:50:10 | <awpr> | this is an aspect of something I wish we had a better answer for in Haskell -- there are infinitely many variations on functors that we occasionally want, it's a huge pain to write special case libraries for each one, but writing a sufficiently general thing that covers all functors makes use sites so complicated that it just results in getting fed up with all the kind instantiation and doing something else |
| 20:50:47 | <ProofTechnique> | I'm _certain_ there's a Trifunctor on Hackage somewhere |
| 20:51:01 | <awpr> | how about Triskaidekafunctor |
| 20:51:10 | <Cale> | I don't think it's all that big a deal, honestly |
| 20:51:24 | <Cale> | If you have that many type parameters, you'd probably prefer to name your operations more clearly |
| 20:51:43 | <ProofTechnique> | ^this |
| 20:51:57 | <Cale> | fmap3of7 is not very cool |
| 20:52:28 | <kuribas> | hmm, it's worse, I am thinking about a higher kinded bifunctor now... |
| 20:52:44 | <Cale> | But yeah, you can just do enough runNat's ;) |
| 20:52:45 | <ProofTechnique> | Being a Functor is boring. Practically everything is a Functor. Trifunctors are thrice as boring, and who needs that? |
| 20:53:00 | <awpr> | kuribas: like https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ten-0.1.0.1/docs/Data-Ten-Functor.html#t:Functor10 but Bifunctor? |
| 20:53:04 | <kuribas> | Cale: how so? |
| 20:53:36 | <kuribas> | "If you have that many type parameters, you'd probably prefer to name your operations more clearly" |
| 20:54:18 | <Cale> | https://github.com/ekmett/hask/blob/master/src/Hask/Category.hs#L329 |
| 20:54:32 | <Cale> | kuribas: Because the parameters probably have meaning to you |
| 20:54:46 | <kuribas> | right, they have |
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| 20:55:40 | <ProofTechnique> | "I wrote Dodecafunctor, but I use id in nearly every position" |
| 20:56:00 | <Cale> | ProofTechnique: seventhOfTwelve |
| 20:56:06 | <kuribas> | maybe labeled functors? |
| 20:56:41 | <Cale> | (like first and second for Bifunctor) |
| 20:57:23 | <kuribas> | For example, I model some sort of subtyping with functors. Like "Device fields", where Device contains command fields, fields are specific to the type of Device. |
| 20:58:21 | <kuribas> | Or just (Device ()) if I don't care about the special fields. |
| 20:58:29 | <ProofTechnique> | Questions like these are why we have lenses now |
| 20:58:58 | <kuribas> | ProofTechnique: that sounds orthogonal. |
| 20:59:32 | <kuribas> | Well, I guess I don't need the functor instance really... |
| 20:59:39 | <kuribas> | I can use the LabelOptic instead. |
| 20:59:41 | <dsal> | Lenses give you named profunctors on arbitrary things. |
| 20:59:44 | <awpr> | a polymorphic lens or other optic can target whichever type parameter it wants, have a nice name, and give you all the available functionality of the suite of functor-ish instances |
| 20:59:54 | <kuribas> | yeah true. |
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| 21:00:10 | <kuribas> | Are there higher rank lenses? |
| 21:00:16 | <monochrom> | I don't fear seventhOfTwelve. What I fear is there are almost 2^12 siblings of it. |
| 21:00:54 | <awpr> | kuribas: like `(forall x. m x -> f (n x)) -> s -> f t`? |
| 21:01:15 | <kuribas> | awpr: yeah |
| 21:01:22 | <awpr> | ooh I just realized GHC 9.2 makes those not suck |
| 21:01:33 | <awpr> | I've been tempted to add them to `ten`, but haven't yet |
| 21:02:21 | <awpr> | I may even have a commented out `Lens10` type alias with a comment like "uh, is this useful?" |
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| 21:03:28 | → | Lord_of_Life_ joins (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) |
| 21:03:32 | <awpr> | (background: composing those without quick look impredicativity doesn't work, it'd need a newtype to guard the forall. with quick look, maybe it works) |
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| 21:05:04 | <kuribas> | I was just thinking how to model clojure style "data API", where you put all information in data. It seems to map to HKD data. For example you fill a HKD with a parser description. Then use the HKD to "run" each parser to Identity. |
| 21:05:50 | <awpr> | not familiar with the clojure side of that, but it sure sounds like `traverse10` to me |
| 21:06:14 | Lord_of_Life_ | is now known as Lord_of_Life |
| 21:06:54 | <kuribas> | like: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hkd-0.1/docs/Data-HKD.html |
| 21:07:19 | <awpr> | yeah, same idea. I like mine better :) |
| 21:08:08 | <awpr> | in particular I have support for getting access to the constraints that are common to all fields |
| 21:08:21 | <dsal> | awpr: I'm not smart enough to understand ten. Do you have an explanation for dummies? |
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| 21:09:01 | <awpr> | yeah the docs are still not super friendly to newcomers to the library, I'd like to improve that |
| 21:09:05 | <Cajun> | how is HKD different from First Class Families? |
| 21:09:19 | <Cajun> | they seem similar in concept, maybe i just dont understand the idea behind HKD |
| 21:09:28 | <dsal> | awpr: I guess it's just a type functor. I don't spend too much time there. |
| 21:09:33 | <dsal> | Whence the name? |
| 21:10:28 | <awpr> | dsal: yeah, pretty much. in practice I've seen it come up when wanting a lot of variants of the same record type and ways to manipulate them generically, like "MyRecord Parser -> Parser (MyRecord Identity)" |
| 21:10:46 | <ProofTechnique> | I was gonna say "how about even one example?" 😄 I get HKD well enough to use it in anger (well, barbies, anyway), but I don't even know where to start with ten |
| 21:10:52 | <kuribas> | awpr: how is it different from HKD? |
| 21:11:07 | <awpr> | kuribas: exactly the same core idea, but more functionality |
| 21:11:08 | <kuribas> | awpr: to me it looks like the same think with a different name. |
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| 21:12:11 | <kuribas> | hmm, ok |
| 21:13:47 | <kuribas> | it's always nice in theory, but the code seems to become hairy quickly. |
| 21:13:56 | <kuribas> | for example beam. |
| 21:14:32 | <ProofTechnique> | dsal: Evidently the name comes from its being a functor from the category of objects with one (1) type parameter to the category of objects with zero (0) |
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| 21:14:50 | <dsal> | ProofTechnique: Ah. Thanks. |
| 21:15:31 | <dsal> | Needs more abstraction. Next time, call it LilNasFunctorX |
| 21:15:50 | <ProofTechnique> | Lil Nat Z |
| 21:15:50 | <awpr> | lol I get the sense I should demote the current description to a category theory section and start over |
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| 21:16:57 | <ProofTechnique> | I'll see if I can use it next time I write a CLI tool 🙂 |
| 21:17:35 | <ProofTechnique> | Config construction is most of what I've used HKD for, thus far |
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| 21:17:57 | <awpr> | kuribas: yeah, it can get confusing. I did try to iron out a lot of the scarier issues, but there are still a lot of types and type parameters and quantifiers floating around. it's certainly not functionality for zero complexity cost, it's more on the heavyweight side |
| 21:18:14 | <newbie> | Hi, I have a question regarding '>>=' of Either. If I want to apply it to a tuple containing Either instead i.e (Either SomeData a, String), how can I lift '>>=' such that it operates on tuples? |
| 21:19:04 | <Rembane> | :t first (>>=) |
| 21:19:05 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => (m a, d) -> ((a -> m b) -> m b, d) |
| 21:19:22 | <Cajun> | :t first |
| 21:19:23 | <lambdabot> | Arrow a => a b c -> a (b, d) (c, d) |
| 21:19:30 | <Rembane> | That wasn't the clearest type signature, but it's one way to do it. |
| 21:19:32 | <dsal> | @hoogle first |
| 21:19:32 | <Cajun> | i see arrows im scared |
| 21:19:32 | <lambdabot> | Control.Arrow first :: Arrow a => a b c -> a (b, d) (c, d) |
| 21:19:32 | <lambdabot> | Data.Bifunctor first :: Bifunctor p => (a -> b) -> p a c -> p b c |
| 21:19:32 | <lambdabot> | Text.PrettyPrint.Annotated.HughesPJ first :: Doc a -> Doc a -> Doc a |
| 21:19:47 | <dsal> | The Bifunctor one is what your probably probably thinks of. |
| 21:19:48 | <awpr> | :t Data.Bifunctor.first -- a less scary one, slightly |
| 21:19:49 | <lambdabot> | Bifunctor p => (a -> b) -> p a c -> p b c |
| 21:19:56 | <Cajun> | oh its bifunctor, thats way less scary |
| 21:20:12 | <dsal> | newbie: You could use regular functor if you swapped the tuple around. |
| 21:20:41 | <Rembane> | :t swap |
| 21:20:42 | <lambdabot> | (a, b) -> (b, a) |
| 21:21:03 | <dsal> | I'd probably try to actually just use it in that direction instead of doing a `. swap` |
| 21:21:33 | <newbie> | That seems easier than i thought. Thanks guys, i'll try to implement it :) |
| 21:21:41 | <ProofTechnique> | More descriptive, for sure |
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| 21:29:15 | <ldlework> | Is "Reflex" react for haskell? |
| 21:29:20 | <ldlework> | I can't quite tell |
| 21:29:52 | <kuribas> | rather react is pseudo FRP for javascript. |
| 21:30:11 | <ldlework> | so Reflex is a generic framework for doing FRP in haskell? |
| 21:30:25 | <ldlework> | Is it for web-development, or like, more general than that |
| 21:31:04 | <kuribas> | I am not that familiar with it, but I'd say it's mostly for the web, yes... |
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| 21:34:21 | <sm> | lots of reflex packages: https://hackage.haskell.org/packages/search?terms=reflex |
| 21:34:21 | <Boarders> | is there a nice way to do your own custom errors in a alex+happy parser? |
| 21:34:37 | <sm> | wow. I guess reflex works |
| 21:36:44 | <newbie> | Hi again, I could not make it work. I do realize something is very wrong with the type signatures i pass around, just not how to fix it. I have created a pastebin with a minimized problem: https://pastebin.com/Pc8KA4dv |
| 21:37:11 | <newbie> | Question from before: I have a question regarding '>>=' of Either. If I want to apply it to a tuple containing Either instead i.e (Either SomeData a, String), how can I lift '>>=' such that it operates on tuples? |
| 21:37:26 | → | cuz joins (~user@38.140.58.234) |
| 21:37:29 | <newbie> | Namely to define ">>=" for Test without patternmatching on Either |
| 21:38:22 | <kuribas> | newbie: what is you monad doing with those integers? |
| 21:38:25 | <kuribas> | collecting them? |
| 21:38:59 | <newbie> | Just collecting them |
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| 21:40:12 | <newbie> | I just realize '>>=' for either would never concatenate the integer list, thus it would never work |
| 21:40:20 | × | hexfive quits (~eric@50.35.83.177) (Client Quit) |
| 21:40:55 | <kuribas> | then ExceptT SomeData (ReaderT String (WriterT [Integer])) ? |
| 21:41:11 | <kuribas> | erm Writer, not WriterT |
| 21:41:27 | <kuribas> | or ExceptT SomeData (ReaderT String ([Integer],)) |
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| 21:42:29 | <newbie> | Damn okay, that seems way to complicated to me |
| 21:42:58 | × | cuz quits (~user@38.140.58.234) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 21:43:01 | <newbie> | Is pattern matching in declarations of 'bind' necessarily a bad idea? |
| 21:43:34 | <kuribas> | newbie: just use GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving. |
| 21:43:42 | <kuribas> | No need to write any instances. |
| 21:43:46 | <ldlework> | newbie: is the goal to make a Test Monad where you can compose a bunch of tests together and get some structure with all the results as Eithers |
| 21:44:06 | <ldlework> | or to short circuit on the first test |
| 21:44:09 | <ldlework> | that fails |
| 21:44:35 | <newbie> | It should short-circuit on the first test that fails |
| 21:44:41 | <dsal> | > Right [1] <> Right [2] |
| 21:44:43 | <lambdabot> | Right [1] |
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| 21:44:59 | <dsal> | Huh. That's interesting. |
| 21:45:06 | <dsal> | > Just [1] <> Just [2] |
| 21:45:08 | <lambdabot> | Just [1,2] |
| 21:45:18 | <dsal> | Who thought that was a good idea? |
| 21:45:43 | <ldlework> | dsal: there might be multiple monads |
| 21:45:55 | <ldlework> | wait no, i'm dumb |
| 21:46:03 | <newbie> | It's for a school assignment, so the declarations is static. I have made a solution that works using pattern matching in ">>=" declaration of 'Test' , however I just wanted to see if I could utilize monads some more |
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| 21:46:46 | <ldlework> | newbie: they have you do haskell at school? |
| 21:46:55 | <newbie> | Oh yes |
| 21:47:08 | <dsal> | ldlework: It's surprising when `Maybe` and `Left x` behave differently. |
| 21:47:14 | <dsal> | Er, `Either x` |
| 21:47:25 | <ldlework> | newbie: dope |
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| 21:48:04 | <newbie> | We have 3 weeks of Haskell, 3 weeks of Erlang and then an exam where you have to write a pretty big program in both within a week |
| 21:48:59 | <kuribas> | 3 weeks is very short |
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| 21:49:47 | <ldlework> | I'm only like 6 days in :P |
| 21:49:56 | <newbie> | I wish we had some more weeks ya, Haskell is a language I really have wanted to learn for years |
| 21:50:04 | <ldlework> | oh, that's the length of the whole program?! |
| 21:50:24 | <ldlework> | i thought you were saying you had three weeks under your belt |
| 21:50:36 | <ldlework> | newbie: I think >=> can come into play here |
| 21:50:41 | <newbie> | Oh no, that is the program/course |
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| 21:51:37 | <newbie> | Got any ideas about how? |
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| 21:52:46 | <ldlework> | newbie: still thinking about it |
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| 21:53:54 | <kuribas> | newbie: can you explain the problem? |
| 21:54:00 | <ldlework> | it kind of feels wierd |
| 21:54:06 | <ldlework> | because the function is inside the Test Monad |
| 21:54:25 | <ldlework> | what are the semantics of >>= supposed to be |
| 21:54:41 | <ldlework> | it feels like the thing desired is some associativity |
| 21:54:57 | <ldlework> | t1 <> t2 <> t3 == some Either |
| 21:55:05 | <kuribas> | :t runReaderT . runExceptT |
| 21:55:07 | <lambdabot> | ExceptT e (ReaderT r m) a -> r -> m (Either e a) |
| 21:55:20 | <ldlework> | Ah I don't know the Reader monad yet |
| 21:55:34 | <ldlework> | I should finish HFFP.. |
| 21:55:38 | <kuribas> | substitute m = ([Integer],) |
| 21:55:42 | × | ec_ quits (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 21:55:49 | <kuribas> | that's your monad. |
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| 21:56:05 | <kuribas> | Not sure it's the one you need for the problem though... |
| 21:56:34 | <kuribas> | Also, appending lists is very inefficient. |
| 21:57:31 | <ldlework> | kuribas: without Reader would it be enough to implement Monoid for Test? |
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| 21:58:08 | <ldlework> | run the test, return either a Left failure, or a Right Integer composed with a recursive call to the rest of the tests |
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| 21:59:03 | <ldlework> | t1 <> t2 == Either (SomeData a) [Integer] |
| 21:59:35 | <kuribas> | ldlework: I have no idea what this function is supposed to do... |
| 21:59:43 | <ldlework> | which one |
| 21:59:48 | <kuribas> | What's SomeData? What's String? |
| 21:59:57 | <kuribas> | The one from newbie |
| 22:00:00 | <ldlework> | kuribas: it's in his pastebin |
| 22:00:11 | <ldlework> | I think SomeData is a catch all for reporting errors |
| 22:00:16 | <ldlework> | the successes are single integers |
| 22:00:28 | <newbie> | SomeData is a catch for all reporting errors |
| 22:00:29 | <ldlework> | the result should either be a Left SomeData a, or a Right [Integer] |
| 22:00:46 | <newbie> | Test does a computation given the "string input" |
| 22:00:50 | <ldlework> | so it feels like all you need is monoid |
| 22:01:25 | <newbie> | And side effects is passed into the [Integer] : 0 = no side effect, 1 = side effect |
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| 22:03:01 | <kuribas> | That sounds more like sequence... |
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| 22:04:03 | <kuribas> | :t sequence |
| 22:04:04 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a) |
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| 22:04:58 | <kuribas> | you run all the tests, and collect the errors. |
| 22:05:27 | <kuribas> | newbie's description isn't very clear... |
| 22:05:35 | <kuribas> | Why does he need monad here? |
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| 22:05:48 | <kuribas> | Does the result of one test depends on the other test? |
| 22:05:55 | <monochrom> | This is a school assignment right? Could we see the verbatim school assignment, not your interpretation? |
| 22:06:15 | <monochrom> | Because my data shows that students always misinterpret everything on the assignment handout. |
| 22:06:30 | <monochrom> | Or at least those students who actually need help. |
| 22:07:11 | <newbie> | It is my bad, I tried to obfuscate the types and assignment since one of my teachers is admin in here |
| 22:07:40 | <newbie> | I'll try to come up with a better explanation, 1 sec |
| 22:08:05 | <geekosaur> | heh |
| 22:08:17 | <monochrom> | Oh, I don't think they will mind you asking, as long as the answerers, in turn, are careful about what help to provide. |
| 22:08:23 | <monochrom> | err |
| 22:08:31 | <monochrom> | nah, no typo. |
| 22:11:35 | <ProofTechnique> | I barely did my own homework, I'm not about to start giving away answers for other people's 😄 |
| 22:11:42 | <monochrom> | haha |
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| 22:11:59 | <hpc> | irc is the original proof of work protocol |
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| 22:16:16 | <newbie> | I created a formulation more 1:1 with my assignment |
| 22:16:17 | <newbie> | https://pastebin.com/KPZQDeyN |
| 22:17:03 | <newbie> | Oh lord, bad formatting. This one is better https://pastebin.com/JHKrCSHJ |
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| 22:18:02 | <newbie> | I have included my working solution using pattern matching - however I wish to avoid that somehow since it seems kinda un-Haskell'y |
| 22:18:27 | <kuribas> | err, what is unhaskelly about it? |
| 22:18:44 | <awpr> | :t first |
| 22:18:45 | <Cajun> | i find guards to be more non-idiomatic than pattern matching |
| 22:18:45 | <lambdabot> | Arrow a => a b c -> a (b, d) (c, d) |
| 22:18:48 | <awpr> | :t fst |
| 22:18:49 | <lambdabot> | (a, b) -> a |
| 22:18:50 | <monochrom> | I bet it means "writing code by hand". |
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| 22:19:33 | <newbie> | My teacher seems to want us to utilize Monads in every possible case |
| 22:20:01 | <monochrom> | Well that's one of the possible misinterpretations I was talking about. |
| 22:20:44 | <monochrom> | I completely never worried about how you changed type names away from the original assignment. I'm sure you didn't goof that part. |
| 22:21:10 | × | favonia quits (~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 22:21:10 | <monochrom> | But what your actual job is, every student who seek help always misinterpret that. |
| 22:22:40 | <monochrom> | In particular since the tuple order is (Either SomeError a, [String]) rather than ([String], Either SomeError a), you will not be able to "utilize Monads" to the fullest extent. |
| 22:22:55 | <monochrom> | s/you will not/no one will/ |
| 22:23:39 | <awpr> | it almost looks like it's designed to force you to implement it directly instead of with easy DerivingVia trickery |
| 22:24:17 | <awpr> | ...although maybe if a student knows to use DerivingVia and what via type would get the right result, they should be able to do that :) |
| 22:24:55 | <monochrom> | Concretely, there are two points on why the not-working version is not working. |
| 22:25:33 | <monochrom> | "f (first t)" is a type error after you find out correctly the type of t. It doesn't fit there. |
| 22:25:52 | <newbie> | I see, thank you guys. It is still somewhat hard to comprehend Haskell within the first week of learning it, which is why I wanted to find out if I could do something smarter than what I did |
| 22:26:17 | <kuribas> | newbie: I don't think you're supposed to do something smart. |
| 22:26:23 | <ProofTechnique> | (I'm mostly just mystified by the lack of Functor and Applicative instances) |
| 22:26:27 | <monochrom> | And if you look at the working version, you find that you don't unconditionally do "runTest (f whatever)". You do it only under one condition. |
| 22:26:48 | <monochrom> | In the not-working version, you're doing it unconditionally. |
| 22:27:08 | <awpr> | never hurts to learn by practicing though, even if the assignment is perfectly content with being implemented by direct pattern matching |
| 22:27:45 | <newbie> | The conditional thing actually makes sense |
| 22:27:50 | <kuribas> | awpr: it hurts if they try to do advanced stuff, when they don't grasp the simple stuff. |
| 22:28:04 | <kuribas> | Doing pattern matching is fine. |
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| 22:28:28 | <awpr> | depends on what "hurts" means. "my brain hurts" maybe, but if they figure it out after a few hours of trying by choice / for fun, then that's learning |
| 22:28:30 | <newbie> | awpr: Exactly: I already have a working solution for the assignment, so trying to explore other options and learn from that is very nice |
| 22:29:43 | <ProofTechnique> | The only stylistic thing you _could_ do (and you definitely don't _need_ to) is to reorder the cases and replace your `(Left a, x) -> (Left a, x)` with something like `err -> err`, since you don't need to inspect or do anything with any of the components |
| 22:30:01 | <newbie> | At least that is how I learn. Next time I experience a similar problem I will not spend hours wondering about it |
| 22:30:30 | <newbie> | ProofTechnique: Oh ya ofc, thanks : ) |
| 22:31:43 | <kuribas> | newbie: well, the short way would be to use the monad stack. |
| 22:32:36 | <ProofTechnique> | Simply replace all this completely readable pattern matching with an inscrutable transformer stack! |
| 22:33:00 | <ProofTechnique> | That'll show the TA what's what :D |
| 22:33:59 | <kuribas> | ProofTechnique: he wanted to know what's after the manual implementation :-) |
| 22:34:28 | <newbie> | I do not know what that is lol |
| 22:35:05 | <kuribas> | newbie: composition of monads. |
| 22:35:19 | <monochrom> | They just mean there is a way to refactor Env -> (Either SomeError a, [String]) into 3 pieces, and then it won't suck. |
| 22:35:54 | <kuribas> | well, then I can be lazy, and let the compiler infer the instances. |
| 22:36:03 | <newbie> | So a monad stack is utilizing MonadTransformers? |
| 22:36:09 | <kuribas> | yes |
| 22:36:49 | <kuribas> | you "stack" the monad transformers on top of each other, hence "monad stack". |
| 22:36:59 | <monochrom> | My POV is that if you do that, there are 2 annoying newtype wrappers that get into the way, it will still be ugly. |
| 22:37:10 | <kuribas> | monochrom: coerce? |
| 22:37:26 | <newbie> | Ah nice, makes sense |
| 22:37:34 | <monochrom> | Ugh do you teach coerce in a course? Any course? |
| 22:37:36 | <ProofTechnique> | If you want the compiler to write code for you, just ask the nearest Simon to do it instead |
| 22:37:44 | <newbie> | I think I have to work a little more with monads before utilizing Monad Transformers tho |
| 22:37:52 | <kuribas> | monochrom: of course not |
| 22:38:51 | <ProofTechnique> | Oh, that reminds me: Seeing as it's school season again, we should get a list of active courses and their problem sets so we can get ahead of the questions :) |
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| 22:40:19 | <ProofTechnique> | Professors of IRC, post your syllabus so we can prepare maximally cryptic pointfree solutions to homework questions |
| 22:40:31 | <newbie> | :D |
| 22:40:34 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 22:41:01 | <monochrom> | I don't think pointfree is all that hot any more. |
| 22:41:02 | <awpr> | we can insert 0-width spaces to fingerprint our solutions |
| 22:41:12 | <geekosaur> | ContT |
| 22:41:15 | <monochrom> | The rage is with either linear types or type-level tricks. |
| 22:41:19 | <hpc> | zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms? |
| 22:41:50 | <ldlework> | i usually let hlint eta reduce my stuff |
| 22:42:01 | <ldlework> | dunno if it's a good habit yet |
| 22:42:32 | <dsal> | hlint has some good suggestions and some really weird ones. |
| 22:42:36 | <monochrom> | There was once I inserted or delete spaces or puntuations to fingerprint my solutions. |
| 22:42:41 | <dsal> | The trick is to find two people who can agree on either of those categories. |
| 22:43:16 | <monochrom> | I had 6 TAs, 1 of them was leaking my solution to help students cheat, I wanted to find out who. |
| 22:43:16 | <awpr> | "use operator sections" on alphanumeric names is a particularly weird one |
| 22:43:20 | <ProofTechnique> | "It's very simple. Just start with `data family Homework a` ..." |
| 22:44:14 | <monochrom> | So when I sent solutions to TAs for preparation, each TA received a different addition or deletion of spaces or puntuations. |
| 22:44:16 | <ldlework> | awpr: do you ever do that yourself? |
| 22:44:25 | <ldlework> | sometimes I have done (`foo` val) |
| 22:44:25 | <dsal> | I do that some sometimes. |
| 22:44:47 | <awpr> | if HLint bugs me about it I'll generally just do it, but stream of consciousness I tend to end up writing `flip foo val` |
| 22:44:52 | <monochrom> | So when the cheating student submitted my solution obtained through a TA, I was able to identify the TA. |
| 22:44:53 | <dsal> | hlint author hates flip |
| 22:45:09 | <monochrom> | The students and the TA were successfully convicted. |
| 22:45:10 | <ProofTechnique> | Those are some bush league cheaters, sheesh. Imagine copying and pasting like a rube :/ |
| 22:45:45 | <awpr> | sounds like some old spy story where an agency intentionally leaked subtly different information to their agents to find out who was leaking |
| 22:45:52 | <ldlework> | i think sectioning is cool, because flipping is like a "natural need" based on the nature of what we're doing |
| 22:45:58 | <monochrom> | awpr, I think "map (`mod` 7) [a,b,c]" is fairly OK. |
| 22:46:02 | <ldlework> | so it's nice to have a tiny sugar for it |
| 22:46:17 | <ldlework> | yeah that |
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| 22:46:27 | <awpr> | monochrom: yeah, it's perfectly fine IMO, just not sure I see the need to have a linter forbid the alternative for all prefix functions |
| 22:46:49 | <monochrom> | all (`elem` ['a'..'z']) mystring |
| 22:46:56 | <ldlework> | is hlint configurable in that sense? |
| 22:46:57 | <monochrom> | at which point it read like English |
| 22:46:59 | <ldlework> | like eslint |
| 22:47:04 | <monochrom> | at which point it read like COBOL, too |
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| 22:47:20 | <ProofTechnique> | flip is a subtle poison. I use it, too, but it gets out of hand so fast if you let it :D |
| 22:47:23 | <awpr> | yeah, those uses and plenty of others do look better than with flip, IMO |
| 22:47:44 | <monochrom> | Oh yeah, hlint is opinion, not linter. False advertising. |
| 22:48:19 | <monochrom> | "map (\x -> mod x 7)" is fine. Everyone does not have to code like a smart*ss. |
| 22:48:40 | <ldlework> | i have an irrational aversion to haskell's lambdas |
| 22:49:11 | <ProofTechnique> | 80% of my interaction with hlint is idly writing `fmap foo`, seeing it's not the shape I want, sticking `sequence .` on the front and being chided for forgetting that every single problem reduces to `traverse` |
| 22:49:15 | <ldlework> | for some reason I wish you could either `x -> f x` or `(x, y) -> f x y` |
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| 22:49:49 | <awpr> | backslash is a lambda letter with a missing leg |
| 22:50:00 | <monochrom> | You will want |->, which is what mathematicians do. |
| 22:50:06 | <ldlework> | yeah but the parser isn't strong enough to not require parens everywhere |
| 22:50:14 | <ldlework> | or grammar or whatever |
| 22:50:20 | <ProofTechnique> | Turn on UnicodeSyntax and ensure that no one will ever work with you. Problem solved |
| 22:50:25 | <ldlework> | haha |
| 22:50:30 | <monochrom> | Why do you have an irrational aversion to parentheses? |
| 22:50:42 | <awpr> | time for Lisp exposure therapy |
| 22:50:42 | <ldlework> | monochrom: just those ones, with the \ it just gets noisy |
| 22:50:49 | <ldlework> | i come from a lisp background! |
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| 22:51:02 | <ldlework> | well, i mean, i have lots of lisp experience! |
| 22:51:07 | <monochrom> | "map ((x,y) |-> f x y)" is fine. |
| 22:51:19 | <ldlework> | afterall, it is an irrational aversion |
| 22:51:21 | <monochrom> | "map (x,y) |-> f x y" is the confusing one. You need parentheses. |
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| 22:51:54 | <ProofTechnique> | Be a monster and turn on BlockArguments just for `map do \(x, y) -> f x y` |
| 22:52:34 | <awpr> | from a parsing perspective, it might be helpful to have the lambda up front to avoid parsing as an expression and then backtracking. I don't remember if patterns have a separate grammar from expressions, though -- seems like they should with ViewPatterns, AsPatterns, etc. |
| 22:52:40 | <dsal> | Agda manages to let you just use λ |
| 22:53:02 | <ProofTechnique> | Sure, but it's spelled \Gl, which is a lot |
| 22:53:08 | <ldlework> | be like python and just type `lambda` everywhere |
| 22:53:18 | <monochrom> | patterns have to have a separate grammar from expressions. |
| 22:53:24 | <dsal> | I use λ as a parameter in a thing that uses AWS lambda. |
| 22:53:30 | <monochrom> | "f * g" is an expression, but not a pattern. |
| 22:53:33 | <ldlework> | nerd |
| 22:54:09 | <awpr> | I mean, it could parse as a pattern and get rejected by some sanity check, if you really wanted to unify them. but yeah, I agree they should be separate |
| 22:55:24 | <monochrom> | But yeah language designers try to stay within LALR(k) or something for parser efficiency. |
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| 22:55:46 | <ProofTechnique> | The sanity check that rejects it is having a separate grammar :) |
| 22:56:24 | <monochrom> | which is arguably silly for a language that goes on to do exponential-time type inference. |
| 22:56:48 | <monochrom> | Cubic-time parsing is nothing compared to type inference. |
| 22:57:33 | <awpr> | even worse is GHC.Generics generating pathological cases for type inference to deal with :) |
| 22:57:42 | <awpr> | or rather DeriveGeneric |
| 22:58:02 | <ProofTechnique> | I would hope the n is quite a bit smaller in the type inference case than in the parsing case, but then I remember deriving chicanery |
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| 23:04:46 | <ldlework> | anyone know how to use time in hylogen/hylide? |
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| 23:05:54 | <ldlework> | nm just got it working |
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| 23:07:30 | <ProofTechnique> | I have never seen that library before, but it looks very cool |
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| 23:11:13 | <aegon> | is do notation left or right associative in desugaring? bind and >> are left but do is right or am i wrong about right and right is left o_o |
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| 23:12:40 | <awpr> | seems effectively right-associative, in that the stuff after a do-statement is all contained inside the lambda that's given to the first >>= |
| 23:13:32 | <ldlework> | Where `c` is a `Vec4 a a a a` I wonder how to translate `fract(c.xxxw + K.xyzw)` into hylogen |
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| 23:13:50 | <awpr> | the left associativity of >>= is a different matter -- it controls what happens when you write `x >>= f >>= g`, namely that it's the only associativity that typechecks that expression |
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| 23:14:15 | <ldlework> | aka swizzling |
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| 23:14:37 | <awpr> | meanwhile if you have unparenthesized lambdas, associativity doesn't come into play, it's just the parsing of the lambda eating the rest of the expression |
| 23:15:06 | <aegon> | awpr: thats the source of a bunch of accidently quadradic perf problems if i'm understanding hte reading correct though |
| 23:15:55 | <awpr> | having left-associated binds? yeah, it can be slower for some monads, but just moving the parens around doesn't type-check anymore |
| 23:17:03 | <aegon> | ldlework: i'm just seeing hylogen but it looks like there are a bunch of swizzle funcs already defined here https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hylogen-0.1.5.1/docs/Hylogen-Types-Vec.html |
| 23:17:10 | <ldlework> | i just found those! |
| 23:17:13 | <ldlework> | thank you aegon |
| 23:17:22 | <aegon> | np! |
| 23:18:27 | <aegon> | awpr: thanks for the insight, gonna play around with paren places in ghci to see more what you mean |
| 23:19:10 | <awpr> | `x >>= f >>= g` <-> `x >>= (f >=> g)` |
| 23:19:43 | <aegon> | :t (>=>) |
| 23:19:44 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c |
| 23:19:53 | <awpr> | <-> `x >>= \y -> f y >>= g` |
| 23:20:49 | <awpr> | tbh I never actually thought about successive >>=s being a potential performance issue until now. will have to keep that in mind and remember to use the fish operator version |
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| 23:24:08 | <aegon> | i haven't run into anyone suggesting (>=>) in the posts as a way to guard against it, thats kinda neat |
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| 23:31:08 | <ProofTechnique> | How does that get rid of binds? |
| 23:31:30 | <awpr> | it right-associates them so you don't repeatedly re-traverse the same structure you just built |
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| 23:32:16 | <awpr> | I think the docs of `Codensity` in `kan-extensions` describe the issue pretty well |
| 23:32:42 | <ProofTechnique> | I've only ever seen this bind performance thing come up in the context of free monads, but I'll go read kan-extensions for the details :) |
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| 23:34:20 | <ProofTechnique> | Oh, lol, the linked paper is exactly "Asymptotic Improvement of Computations over Free Monads" :D |
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| 23:38:21 | <ProofTechnique> | Oh, gosh, GHC 6.6. I think 6.8.3 was the first GHC I used. The years do fly by |
| 23:38:23 | <monochrom> | Yeah it's mainly for free monads that are coded up as an ADT. |
| 23:38:47 | <ldlework> | Looks like Hylogen is abandoned and it only has minimal support. Dang! |
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| 23:39:00 | <monochrom> | But even then I am skeptical about how often it hurts. It is not like you have left recursion all that often. |
| 23:39:42 | <ldlework> | my dreams of fast game-of-life in haskell are dying ^_^ |
| 23:40:01 | <ProofTechnique> | Revive it! |
| 23:40:28 | <ProofTechnique> | I'm very much looking forward to delimited continuations to happen so I can try out eff without Herculean effort |
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| 23:41:10 | <ProofTechnique> | Polysemy is still very nice, but eff has that sports car sheen |
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| 23:46:39 | <ldlework> | https://github.com/jaredloomis/andromeda |
| 23:46:43 | <ldlework> | this library isn't on hackage |
| 23:46:46 | <ldlework> | how do i install it? |
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| 23:50:29 | <aegon> | ldlework: with stack you specify the git repo as an external source in your stack.yaml then add the dependency to your package.yaml, with cabal you... |
| 23:51:05 | <geekosaur> | you can also download it and use "cabal install" without naming a package, usually |
| 23:51:13 | <ProofTechnique> | https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-project.html#specifying-packages-from-remote-version-control-locations |
| 23:51:16 | <ldlework> | i'm using NixOS and the only good info I can find is using cabal |
| 23:51:24 | <geekosaur> | from the directory with the cabal file (or cabal.project file) |
| 23:52:03 | <ProofTechnique> | Idlework: Are you looking to install it in your global package set, or in a project shell? Are you using haskell.nix? |
| 23:52:33 | <aegon> | ldlework: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cabal-project.html#specifying-packages-from-remote-version-control-locations |
| 23:52:37 | <ProofTechnique> | Essentially you just want to write an overlay (or maybe the fancy thing is flakes now) to override `haskellPackages` and add it to the set |
| 23:53:01 | <ProofTechnique> | How to do that nicely depends a little bit on your setup |
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| 23:59:40 | <ldlework> | ProofTechnique: here is the repo I'm working with https://github.com/dustinlacewell/andromeda-hs |
All times are in UTC on 2021-09-16.