Logs on 2021-09-18 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:04:40 | <lechner> | Hi, I find postgresql-simple awkward. Should I look at opaleye instead? Also, can rel8 already handle some light production use to power a simple website? Thanks! |
| 00:04:54 | <lechner> | Or Beam? |
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| 00:50:18 | <sclv> | they're all good choices and well supported afaik |
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| 01:00:04 | <Cale> | I find opaleye quite a lot more awkward than postgresql-simple, just because of the way that all the records are parametric in all the actual types of the fields. But yeah, check out Beam if you want something a little higher level for creating the SQL syntax. |
| 01:01:40 | <Cale> | (to be fair though, it's been a *long* time since I last checked out opaleye, so I wouldn't know if it had changed in that regard) |
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| 01:03:40 | <Cale> | Beam though kind of surprised me when I went to look at how it was implemented. It's like the astronaut gun meme "It's all ByteString manipulation? Always has been." |
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| 01:05:12 | <Cale> | (Since it went to so much trouble to formalise all the SQL syntax so meticulously, I'd kind of expected that it'd go via a syntax tree, but that's optional.) |
| 01:07:15 | <Cale> | The meticulousness of how it breaks everything down by which SQL standard introduced things can also make the library a little awkward to navigate, and can induce some pretty hairy constraints on your types. |
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| 01:24:49 | <lechner> | Cale sclv: Thanks so much! |
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| 01:41:23 | <lechner> | Does rel8 return true JOINs from the database due to lezy eval, or does it really match the values in Haskell? https://rel8.readthedocs.io/en/latest/tutorial.html#joins |
| 01:41:31 | <lechner> | lazy |
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| 01:57:15 | <cdsmith> | I feel like this ought to be obvious, but... is there any way to declare an open kind, which is not Type, but people can later define their own types with that Kind in separate modules? |
| 01:57:54 | <awpr> | cdsmith: I've wanted this before and haven't managed to come up with anything |
| 01:58:09 | <cdsmith> | So just abuse Type for it? |
| 01:58:38 | <awpr> | that, or Symbol (with the associated risk of name collisions because it becomes effectively a global namespace) |
| 01:59:17 | awpr | wonders about promoting a GADT containing a Typeable dictionary |
| 01:59:26 | <ProofTechnique> | lechner: https://github.com/circuithub/rel8/blob/4cb7797d9e41765f08a1f7477f45eeb63b89ce8b/docs/concepts/queries.rst#inner-joins |
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| 02:01:13 | <awpr> | along the same lines I wish I could have newtypes with result kinds other than Type (e.g. Type -> Type) |
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| 02:04:18 | <hololeap_> | I'm running into something where if I have PolyKinds enabled, some things won't be able to derive e.g. Show unless I use StandaloneDeriving to explicitly state all the needed constraints |
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| 02:04:36 | <hololeap> | has anyone run into this? |
| 02:04:53 | <Cajun> | re open kind: why cant polykinds be used for that? seems like exactly what its purpose is, unless im misunderstanding the problem statement |
| 02:05:26 | <cdsmith> | Cajun: Perhaps it can? I'm not sure I would understand how |
| 02:06:24 | <ProofTechnique> | cdsmith: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/19292 It seems like every kind is open |
| 02:06:39 | <hololeap> | cdsmith: type family Thing k (t :: k) |
| 02:06:40 | <Cajun> | well it would mean you can have it like `data Foo :: (k -> k) -> k -> k` for some implementation of Foo, with `k` being some polymorphic kind |
| 02:06:42 | <hololeap> | for instance |
| 02:07:07 | <Cajun> | assuming you also have -XStandaloneKindSignatures enabled |
| 02:09:12 | <cdsmith> | ProofTechnique: Thanks. It seems https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/11080 is asking for the same thing I was looking for. Haven't yet understood the linked issue |
| 02:09:22 | <Cajun> | though if it were a type family, it might require it to be open but im not sure, it would definitely make it easier to instantiate it for a custom user type, but im pretty new to type level programming |
| 02:09:47 | <cdsmith> | Cajun: I'm still working on understanding what you said. My Haskell brain is slow tonight |
| 02:10:50 | <Cajun> | its also in line with what hololeap said, its best explained in the GHC docs: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/8.10.5/docs/html/users_guide/glasgow_exts.html#extension-PolyKinds |
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| 02:12:21 | <awpr> | that's still kinda just using `Type` though, just one level up, at which point you may as well just use it directly |
| 02:12:41 | <awpr> | assuming I'm picturing the intended use case correctly |
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| 02:18:01 | <cdsmith> | Cajun: If you're suggesting that what I'm looking for IS kind polymorphism from some other point of view, then that isn't obvious to me. If you're suggesting that it's implementable via kind polymorphism, well, I don't see how yet and linking to the definition of kind polymorphism doesn't tell me how |
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| 02:18:30 | <Cajun> | yeah i just dont think i fully understand the problem statement, my bad |
| 02:18:49 | <awpr> | like if you want a kind other than `Type`, it's presumably because some arbitrary type like `Int` makes no sense in that context, and if you replace `Type` with a kind variable `k`, you just have the same problem with promoted data constructors in place of types |
| 02:19:47 | <Cajun> | yeah, i see that. that gitlab page has also gathered some dust, but it does mention a "prior method" so perhaps thats of interest |
| 02:19:55 | <cdsmith> | Right, this is like the old trick of using EmptyDataDecls to make values for a phantom type constructor. DataKinds makes that obsolete if you want a closed kind. But what about an open kind? |
| 02:20:17 | <lechner> | ProofTechnique: phew! thank you! |
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| 02:22:37 | <cdsmith> | I think https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/11080 explains the problem quite clearly. But the solution, it seems, is to use EmptyDataDecls and give up kind safety. (Or else rely on the broken behavior that ProofTechnique pointed out, but that appears unwise as it will be eventually fixed?) |
| 02:22:41 | <awpr> | hmm, how about `data family MyKind k :: Type`, and use `MyKind k` as the kind in place of `Type` |
| 02:23:01 | <awpr> | assuming you can promote a data family |
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| 02:23:43 | <cdsmith> | awpr: I'm not understanding still. How would you declare a type of the kind `MyKind k` now? |
| 02:24:28 | <awpr> | `data Sentinel; data instance MyKind Sentinel = TheConstructorIActuallyWant` |
| 02:25:01 | <awpr> | there's still the EmptyDataDecls trick, but it's just to let different data instances exist |
| 02:25:44 | <cdsmith> | Hmm... I'm thinking that "just use Type" is making my head hurt less, so I'll try it that way, I think! |
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| 02:27:02 | <awpr> | I should check whether this trick works |
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| 02:35:16 | <awpr> | `Data constructor 'Z1' cannot be used here (it comes from a data family instance)` :( |
| 02:36:12 | <awpr> | so no promoting data families. on the plus side, I discovered a new GHC error message I've never seen before |
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| 02:40:04 | <Cajun> | today i learned GHC has that error message :P |
| 02:40:37 | <awpr> | oh, this is probably just the type-level reflection of "data families aren't GADTs" |
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| 02:57:04 | <hololeap> | % type family MyThing k1 k2 (t :: k) :: k2 |
| 02:57:05 | <yahb> | hololeap: |
| 02:57:17 | <hololeap> | % type instance MyThing Type Type Int = Bool |
| 02:57:17 | <yahb> | hololeap: ; <interactive>:38:23: error:; Ambiguous occurrence `Type'; It could refer to; either `Language.Haskell.TH.Type', imported from `Language.Haskell.TH' (and originally defined in `Language.Haskell.TH.Syntax'); or `Data.Kind.Type', imported from `Data.Kind' (and originally defined in `GHC.Types'); <interactive>:38:28: error:; Ambiguous occurrence `Type'; It could refer to; |
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| 02:57:44 | <hololeap> | % import qualified Data.Kind as K |
| 02:57:44 | <yahb> | hololeap: |
| 02:57:53 | <hololeap> | % type instance MyThing K.Type K.Type Int = Bool |
| 02:57:53 | <yahb> | hololeap: |
| 02:58:14 | <awpr> | one or both of those can be made invisible |
| 02:58:17 | <hololeap> | type instance MyThing (K.Type -> K.Type) (K.Type -> K.Type -> K.Type) Maybe = Either |
| 02:58:48 | <hololeap> | % type instance MyThing (K.Type -> K.Type) (K.Type -> K.Type -> K.Type) Maybe = Either |
| 02:58:48 | <yahb> | hololeap: |
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| 02:58:54 | <awpr> | like in https://hackage.haskell.org/package/numeric-kinds-0.1.0.0/docs/Kinds-Num.html#t:Cmp |
| 02:59:29 | <hololeap> | cdsmith: you can do somthing like that ^ to leave the kinds open ended, and declare them when you make a type instance |
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| 03:00:50 | <hololeap> | s/(t :: k)/(t :: k1)/ |
| 03:01:45 | <hololeap> | or I suppose you don't even have to have them mentioned in the type instance declaration |
| 03:02:17 | <hololeap> | % type family AnotherThing (t :: k1) :: k2 |
| 03:02:17 | <yahb> | hololeap: |
| 03:02:38 | <hololeap> | % type instance AnotherThing Either = Maybe |
| 03:02:38 | <yahb> | hololeap: |
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| 03:17:42 | <andrei-n> | Hello. Is the idiom where you reverse a list after building it in a recursive function is considered bad coding style in haskell? Thanks. |
| 03:18:55 | <shachaf> | That depends on the situation. |
| 03:19:04 | <shachaf> | Laziness sometimes makes it unnecessary or a bad idea. |
| 03:19:52 | <andrei-n> | Ok... |
| 03:20:48 | <shachaf> | For example think about how "map f [] = []; map f (x:xs) = f x : map f xs" is evaluated. |
| 03:21:26 | <shachaf> | When you call it on a list, it constructs the value (f x) : (map f xs) and returns immediately. It doesn't recurse all the way to the end like in a strict language. |
| 03:21:59 | <andrei-n> | Ok. I understand. |
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| 03:34:14 | <dsal> | I may have to stop complaining about ormolu. https://github.com/ret/specifica/blob/main/tlaplus/src/Language/TLAPlus/Parser.hs |
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| 03:58:38 | <hololeap> | is it possible to derive MonoTraversable? http://sprunge.us/lWf9hV |
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| 04:00:03 | <awpr> | I ran into that problem working on `Traversable10`, see https://ryanglscott.github.io/2018/06/22/quantifiedconstraints-and-the-trouble-with-traversable/ |
| 04:00:46 | <awpr> | short answer, no, not the way MonoTraversable is defined |
| 04:01:26 | <jle`> | dsal: art |
| 04:02:13 | <dsal> | There's such weird constructs in there, but the author clearly knows things. |
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| 04:03:30 | <jle`> | gotta love the consistency |
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| 05:21:01 | <pony> | hi |
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| 07:32:27 | <Axman6> | anyone know what the secret incantation is to make hls work with a cabal project? I expected it to work but it tells me I don't have GHC installed |
| 07:34:35 | <Cajun> | hls for use in an editor? the first thing you should do is update everything with `ghcup tui` |
| 07:36:39 | <Axman6> | yeah I've just gone through that dance - though I might try restarting VS code |
| 07:36:59 | <Cajun> | ctrl+shift+p -> restart lsp server typically helps, though restarting it will also do that |
| 07:38:11 | <Axman6> | restarting seems to have worked! Fantastic. I love HLS when it works |
| 07:39:05 | <Cajun> | its really great, especially being able to be told the types of lambdas and other variables on the fly |
| 07:40:00 | <Cajun> | though i find myself commonly restarting the lsp server whenever a new dependency is added, as it will tend to just keep the red underline on some hidden package despite having built the project w/ cabal. just a minor thing |
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| 07:42:04 | <Cajun> | ah i think i know why it was saying you didnt have ghc installed, did you update and/or uninstall a ghc version and the other tools with the editor open? ive had something similar happen in ghci before |
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| 07:49:45 | <Axman6> | yeah I think I just had old versions open at the time |
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| 10:45:02 | <xerox> | maerwald: does ghcup install arm ghc on m1 nowadays? |
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| 11:11:24 | <tomjaguarpaw> | Not sure if there's a nuance I'm missing but does this answer your question: https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs#supported-platforms |
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| 12:28:41 | <Guest22> | @unpl ((`notElem` " |+") . head) |
| 12:28:41 | <lambdabot> | (\ x -> notElem (head x) " |+") |
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| 12:29:57 | <Guest22> | @unpl break ((`notElem` " |+") . head) $ lines side |
| 12:29:58 | <lambdabot> | (break (\ x -> notElem (head x) " |+") (lines side)) |
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| 12:46:09 | <maerwald> | xerox: yes |
| 12:47:19 | <maerwald> | xerox: https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs#supported-platforms |
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| 12:57:25 | <xerox> | maerwald: could it be that I have the x64 version and it won't ever think of updating to an arm version because of this |
| 12:57:57 | <maerwald> | yeah |
| 12:58:01 | <xerox> | makes sense |
| 12:58:19 | <maerwald> | https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghcup/aarch64-apple-darwin-ghcup |
| 12:58:28 | <xerox> | appreciate it (: |
| 12:58:44 | <xerox> | are there still random bugs or is it solid nowadays? |
| 12:59:02 | <xerox> | in the whole thing, ghc and friends |
| 12:59:59 | <maerwald> | there are a couple of bugs I guess |
| 13:00:18 | <maerwald> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues?label_name[]=aarch64-darwin |
| 13:00:34 | <maerwald> | and someone on the stack issue tracker claims the aarch64 ghc is 10 times slower |
| 13:00:37 | <maerwald> | but I haven't seen that |
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| 13:01:57 | <maerwald> | I mean, GHC, ghcup and cabal are all built successfully on darwin M1 |
| 13:01:59 | <geekosaur> | is that for 8.10.7 or for 9.2 alpha? going through llvm means a decent amount of extra work going on (llc and opt) |
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| 13:02:17 | <maerwald> | and cabal and ghcup have a decent amount of dependencies |
| 13:02:22 | <xerox> | ah yes I am on 8.10 |
| 13:02:57 | <maerwald> | stack fails to build because of haskell tls shenanigans |
| 13:03:35 | <maerwald> | that whole stack is on my personal blacklist |
| 13:03:44 | <maerwald> | library stack I mean |
| 13:04:12 | <maerwald> | try to convince stack upstream to switch to curl... problem solved |
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| 14:49:33 | <Guest52> | what types should be in place so i could add a complex number to a fractional number? |
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| 14:50:00 | <Guest52> | ive tried everything but always get the error `Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a1 ~ Complex a1` |
| 14:52:37 | <xerox> | > let a = 2/3; b = (-2/3) + 1 in a :+ b |
| 14:52:39 | <lambdabot> | 0.6666666666666666 :+ 0.33333333333333337 |
| 14:53:01 | <xerox> | missed a : in b's def, oopsie |
| 14:53:28 | <xerox> | and it's wrong anyway! |
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| 14:55:02 | <xerox> | I guess you complexify your rational with ":+ 0" and that's it |
| 14:56:38 | <ProofTechnique> | > let a = 2/3; b = 1 :+ 1 in a + b |
| 14:56:40 | <lambdabot> | 1.6666666666666665 :+ 1.0 |
| 14:57:53 | <Guest52> | no |
| 14:58:01 | <Guest52> | i mean |
| 14:58:31 | <Guest52> | i want to add a Complex number with a double lets say |
| 14:58:44 | <Guest52> | not two doubles to a complex |
| 14:59:22 | <ProofTechnique> | > let a = pi; b = 1 :+ 1 in a + b |
| 14:59:24 | <lambdabot> | 4.141592653589793 :+ 1.0 |
| 14:59:29 | <ProofTechnique> | I'm not following |
| 14:59:45 | <ProofTechnique> | What does "add" mean? |
| 14:59:52 | <Guest52> | (0 :+ 0) + (1.2 :: Double) |
| 15:00:13 | <xerox> | > let a = 2/3 :: Double; b = (-2/3) :+ 1 :: Complex Double; f x y = (x :+ 0) + y in f a b |
| 15:00:15 | <lambdabot> | 0.0 :+ 1.0 |
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| 15:06:16 | <Drew[m]> | `(0 :+ 0) + (realToFrac 1.2) ` |
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| 15:20:49 | <monochrom> | Haha latest plot twist in the haskell-cafe hell thread: "I learned Haskell straight from the Haskell Report" "Yeah me too" |
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| 15:22:51 | <hpc> | use the source, luke |
| 15:23:46 | <monochrom> | Oh yeah should I troll with "I learned Haskell from the source code of Hugs, it maps Haskell to the bare metal when the rubber hits to road"? >:) |
| 15:24:01 | <monochrom> | err s/hits to road/hits the road/ |
| 15:24:35 | <monochrom> | "It is written in C. It's very readable." |
| 15:25:02 | <monochrom> | "I ruled out GHC because back then there was a component written in Perl. Not readable." |
| 15:26:35 | <c_wraith> | is the renamer no longer in perl? |
| 15:27:19 | <monochrom> | Actually more seriously I would want to challenge him "did you learn C from an actual compiler that does an actual mapping to the rubber-hit-the-road thing you rambled about, or did you only imagine a fantasy mapping to congratulate yourself?" |
| 15:27:40 | <monochrom> | I think there is no longer a renamer. |
| 15:27:49 | <c_wraith> | that'd do the job |
| 15:28:04 | <sclv> | “i learned haskell because i invented a perfect language in my head and it turned out paul hudak and lennart had the same idea already” lmao |
| 15:28:23 | <hpc> | monochrom: "i learned python straight from the test suite" |
| 15:28:26 | <monochrom> | Ah but GHC has a large component written in Haskell again. If I haven't learned Haskell I can't read it to learn Haskell... >:) |
| 15:28:46 | <monochrom> | haha hpc |
| 15:28:53 | <monochrom> | @quote monochrom downloaded |
| 15:28:53 | <lambdabot> | monochrom says: I was trying to design a sensible language... then I downloaded ghc. |
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| 15:30:08 | <monochrom> | OK don't worry folks, I'm on a leash, all the dream posts I said I wanted to post, I won't because I know they are not helpful. |
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| 15:31:07 | <monochrom> | I have posted only once, and it was only to debunk "visual learner, spatial learner", and cdsmith did it too. |
| 15:34:17 | <Drew[m]> | Is there a tool to take a package and a stackage lts version you know its developer used to build it and return the versions of all its dependencies, without installing stack? |
| 15:34:53 | <Drew[m]> | That would be handy to have right now |
| 15:35:15 | <maerwald> | Drew[m]: you want to build a stack project with cabal? |
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| 15:36:06 | <Drew[m]> | I want to build a hackage package with cabal that a maintainer hasn't put any upper bounds on |
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| 15:36:34 | <maerwald> | so you want to build a stack project with cabal? |
| 15:36:49 | <Drew[m]> | essentially |
| 15:36:55 | <maerwald> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/stack2cabal |
| 15:37:08 | <sclv> | monochrom: that was a great link you posted on learning styles by the way, wasn't aware really before |
| 15:37:36 | <Drew[m]> | maerwald: Ah, thanks |
| 15:38:06 | <monochrom> | Yeah you can count on Veritasium and other science communicator channels. |
| 15:40:09 | <avital> | Hi all. This is something I don't quite get. I am trying to use Control.Arrow. Say I have an arrow defined as `pre = (arr .) (++)`. Which makes an arrow `Arrow a1 => [a2] -> a1 [a2] [a2]`. I can run the arrow say with `["one", "two"] >>=(runKleisli $ pre "test") |
| 15:40:47 | <avital> | But What I do not get is how runKleisli takes an arrow while its type signature requires Kleisli? |
| 15:40:56 | <monochrom> | @type (arr .) (++) |
| 15:40:57 | <lambdabot> | Arrow a1 => [a2] -> a1 [a2] [a2] |
| 15:41:29 | <avital> | I get I can use Kleisli where Arrow is expected bc there is an Arrow instance for Kleisli |
| 15:41:34 | <monochrom> | @type runKleisli |
| 15:41:34 | <avital> | But this is reverse |
| 15:41:35 | <lambdabot> | Kleisli m a b -> a -> m b |
| 15:41:56 | <c_wraith> | avital: pre is polymorphic, as defined. |
| 15:42:19 | <ProofTechnique> | I like how this video dances around the point that the learning style myth is just a knock-on consequence of Western hyperindividualist woo |
| 15:42:26 | <monochrom> | Ah, right, a1 = Kleisli m |
| 15:43:05 | <c_wraith> | Kleisli [], in that particular case |
| 15:43:35 | <avital> | What type resolution rule is applied to make an arrow into kleisli in runKleisli, that what I don't quite get. Sorry, this might be a real dumb question |
| 15:43:54 | <c_wraith> | It's just unification |
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| 15:45:14 | <c_wraith> | pre "test" :: Arrow a1 => a1 [a2] [a2] ; runKleisli :: Kleisli m a b -> a -> m b |
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| 15:46:21 | <c_wraith> | err. (Arrow a1 => a1 String String), actually |
| 15:46:30 | <avital> | So how Arrow a1 is type-compatible with Kleisli m a b |
| 15:46:40 | <c_wraith> | Arrow a1 isn't a type |
| 15:46:44 | <c_wraith> | it's a constraint |
| 15:46:49 | <avital> | Constraint |
| 15:46:59 | <avital> | Yup, I get that |
| 15:47:01 | <c_wraith> | Kleisli m is an instance of Arrow |
| 15:47:09 | <c_wraith> | so Kleisli m unifies with a1 |
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| 15:47:33 | <avital> | Guess I will go read about unification some more, thank you, c_wraith |
| 15:48:18 | <monochrom> | a1 is the type compatible with Kleisli m |
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| 15:48:33 | <c_wraith> | It's the same idea as let { x :: Int ; x = 3 ; f :: Num a => a -> a ; f = (+ 1) } in f x |
| 15:49:24 | <monochrom> | I think my http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/prerequisite.xhtml#unification is all you need to know about unification for a long time. |
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| 15:49:46 | <avital> | ty, c_wraith, monochrom |
| 15:49:54 | <monochrom> | I say this because if you Google for unification you will just be getting detailed algorithms that you don't need and won't care for a long time. |
| 15:50:27 | <c_wraith> | Yeah, definitely don't look at unification algorithms. They're super-complicated because of edge cases that aren't important for this |
| 15:50:28 | <monochrom> | What most people need for the most part is the problem statement of unification, not a solution. |
| 15:51:46 | <monochrom> | Or at most, an inefficient but straigthforward solution that you can say "ah yeah this is easy I can do it by hand". |
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| 15:54:18 | <hpc> | which usually you can |
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| 15:54:51 | <hpc> | things don't get difficult unless you do something uselessly complicated like fmap (fmap fmap fmap) fmap (fmap (fmap fmap) fmap) fmap fmap |
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| 15:57:23 | <EvanR> | when all sentences work, no help from the computer notifying you of writing the wrong thing |
| 15:57:30 | <EvanR> | bad |
| 15:58:13 | <EvanR> | all least not all fmap clouds fit all slots |
| 15:58:32 | <int-e> | :t fmap (fmap fmap fmap) fmap (fmap (fmap fmap) fmap) fmap fmap |
| 15:58:33 | <lambdabot> | (Functor f1, Functor f2, Functor f3) => f1 (a1 -> b) -> f1 ((a2 -> f3 a1) -> f2 a2 -> f2 (f3 b)) |
| 15:59:03 | <int-e> | could be worse :P |
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| 16:03:43 | <int-e> | :t fmap ((fmap .) . (.) . fmap) |
| 16:03:44 | <lambdabot> | (Functor f1, Functor f2, Functor f3) => f1 (a1 -> b) -> f1 ((a2 -> f3 a1) -> f2 a2 -> f2 (f3 b)) |
| 16:04:43 | <int-e> | hpc: ^^ it's almost reasonable! |
| 16:05:09 | <hpc> | definitely almost :P |
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| 16:05:30 | <monochrom> | "is this representable functor?" meme |
| 16:08:39 | <ldlework> | Reading about Reader, and my tiny brain can't handle it. |
| 16:09:09 | <hpc> | you should write about Writer instead |
| 16:09:34 | <ldlework> | hah |
| 16:09:36 | <monochrom> | "Each Reader functor is just the representation of a representable functor, what's the problem?" >:) |
| 16:09:59 | <ldlework> | Last night in HFFP: "Reader is the Functor of functions." |
| 16:10:02 | <ldlework> | Me: Weeeeeeeeeee |
| 16:10:37 | <monochrom> | More seriously, you should not be reading. This is not a spectator sport. You should be trying your hands at guessing how to code up fmap, >>=, etc for Reader. |
| 16:11:03 | <ldlework> | monochrom: I do all the exercises in the book and I've stopped to write a few haskell experiments like with gloss and some other stuff. |
| 16:11:19 | <ldlework> | But each chapter needs to read at least once :P |
| 16:12:06 | <ldlework> | (or let's be real, twice or thrice heh) |
| 16:12:08 | <monochrom> | Sure, but the reading is only to be told "Reader is an instance of Functor". |
| 16:12:27 | <monochrom> | Beyond that point, if you just read how other people code it up, it makes no sense. |
| 16:12:46 | <monochrom> | It only makes sense after you walk the same journey yourself. |
| 16:12:47 | <ldlework> | Well a series of examples of the typeclass in use is instructive |
| 16:13:02 | <ldlework> | monochrom: sure that's what the exercises in the back of the chapter are for! |
| 16:13:05 | <hpc> | also consider what you would do if you didn't have Monad and do-notation |
| 16:13:09 | <monochrom> | OK even after that you will still be missing something. But that is the minimum. |
| 16:13:15 | <hpc> | and how you would write some random Reader thing |
| 16:13:45 | <hpc> | then those class functions are just the things you're doing over and over again |
| 16:14:29 | <hpc> | like for Maybe, the thing you do over and over again is case foo of {Nothing -> Nothing; Just x -> something involving x} |
| 16:14:46 | <monochrom> | Use case is that if you have "Reader Int XXX" it means that you can a read-only config of type Int you want to consult every once in a while. THE END. |
| 16:15:55 | <ldlework> | Someone should make a code-academy thing for haskell |
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| 16:15:57 | <c_wraith> | Reader itself isn't very useful |
| 16:16:38 | <ldlework> | I think that'd be really valuable |
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| 16:36:19 | <kuribas> | Which REST framework, besides servant, lets you generate openapi docs, clients, etc? |
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| 16:37:51 | <kuribas> | I didn't find any... |
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| 16:38:23 | <hpc> | what's wrong with servant? |
| 16:38:31 | <kuribas> | it's fancy haskell |
| 16:38:43 | <hpc> | heh |
| 16:38:49 | <kuribas> | It is fairly easy to use, until you want to extend it. |
| 16:38:54 | <kuribas> | Write your own types. |
| 16:39:03 | <kuribas> | And it is basically untyped on the type level (unkinded?) |
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| 16:41:36 | <kuribas> | It also seems overcomplicated, with it's use of GADTs. |
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| 16:42:52 | <kuribas> | I just think you could have all the functionality of servant without any type level stuff. |
| 16:43:22 | <kuribas> | For example, when you generate an REST server, it also creates the API description. |
| 16:43:44 | <kuribas> | (a theoritical web framework I mean). |
| 16:44:00 | <kuribas> | Then from the API description you could generate client, openapi, etc... |
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| 16:45:25 | <ProofTechnique> | Scala has tapir |
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| 16:46:06 | <ProofTechnique> | Might have some ideas worth stealing, though I expect the mapping won't be very direct, and I imagine the internals are "fancy Scala" |
| 16:46:40 | <ldlework> | Can you call a function using `getArgs` from ghci repl |
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| 16:47:18 | <geekosaur> | could you give an example of what you're trying to do? |
| 16:47:25 | <kuribas> | I just think a type level REST API would work better in idris. |
| 16:47:43 | <kuribas> | Because the API would be a normal value. |
| 16:48:14 | <hpc> | ldlework: try it |
| 16:48:33 | <ldlework> | hpc: i did |
| 16:48:38 | <kuribas> | Is template haskell "fancy"? |
| 16:48:55 | <geekosaur> | if you mean can you pass values via getArgs, there is :main and there is :set args |
| 16:49:01 | <monochrom> | If you run ":main a b c", getArgs will receive ["a","b","c"] |
| 16:49:09 | <ldlework> | monochrom: oh thanks |
| 16:49:44 | <hpc> | ah, you meant "and actually give it arguments" |
| 16:49:53 | <ldlework> | yeah hehe |
| 16:50:09 | <geekosaur> | yeh, I was unclear on that as well |
| 16:51:50 | <kuribas> | weird that idris gets so little traction, when people love type level programming so much... |
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| 16:59:05 | <ldlework> | with `runhaskell` is there a way to invoke a specific function |
| 17:00:47 | <ldlework> | other than main, that is |
| 17:00:57 | <geekosaur> | I think the closest you get is --ghc-arg='-main-is function' |
| 17:01:08 | <geekosaur> | which requires the function to behave like main |
| 17:01:21 | <monochrom> | ghc -e 'f 5' yourfile.hs |
| 17:02:00 | <monochrom> | In fact ghc -e '1+1' yourfile.hs too, although it seems like trolling if you load up the file just to end up not using it :) |
| 17:02:27 | <monochrom> | ghc -e '1+1' is also OK, you don't have to name a file. |
| 17:02:57 | <ldlework> | monochrom: ah that worked, thanks |
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| 17:17:41 | <kuribas> | hmm, I actually have a nice idea for a higher kinded, profunctor REST API... |
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| 17:18:19 | <kuribas> | Will still require generics or TH though... |
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| 17:30:56 | <ldlework> | I built a handy bash script that lets me either; run, doctest or quicktest a given HFFP exercise, chapter, or everything -- with the ability to "watch" a single exercise in either doctest or quicktest mode |
| 17:32:23 | <ldlework> | I wonder if it'd be of any value if I made a template repo, with all of the exercises stubbed out, ready to be solved |
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| 17:43:26 | <hololeap> | is there a way to reuse a portion of a cabal file, e.g. a subset of dependencies that are used by multiple executables in the same package? |
| 17:43:34 | <sm> | sounds good! and a reddit post |
| 17:44:04 | <sm> | yes hololeap |
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| 17:46:37 | <hololeap> | oh, just found it: common stanzas |
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| 18:15:48 | <sshine> | ldlework, what's HFFP? |
| 18:16:19 | <sshine> | ldlework, oh, first principles book. |
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| 18:42:11 | <hololeap> | sshine: it's the noise you make when someone tells you haskell will never break into the mainstream |
| 18:44:38 | <Lycurgus> | hs from 1st principles, i was gonna guess gigglesnort |
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| 19:19:31 | <awpr> | > let buffalo = fmap -- after reading this morning's backlogs about unification |
| 19:19:33 | <lambdabot> | <no location info>: error: |
| 19:19:33 | <lambdabot> | not an expression: ‘let buffalo = fmap -- after reading this morning's b... |
| 19:20:56 | <hpc> | lol |
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| 19:31:32 | <sm> | someone should write PFFFH |
| 19:33:01 | <justsomeguy> | Programming functionally from finnish hotels? |
| 19:33:37 | <awpr> | Profunctors and Functors For Fledgling Haskellers |
| 19:33:41 | <maerwald> | any good finnish hotels for coding haskell? |
| 19:33:48 | <sm> | Programmers' Follies, Failures and Fun with Haskell ? |
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| 19:39:09 | <monochrom> | In Soviet Russia, principles form first haskell? >:) |
| 19:41:15 | <monochrom> | I don't want haskell to be mainstream. |
| 19:41:56 | <monochrom> | People are in delusional denial of what would happen if haskell went into mainstream. |
| 19:42:16 | <maerwald> | that means you're basically not pro Haskell Foundation |
| 19:42:24 | <monochrom> | It would mean haskell would be changed by mainstream, not mainstream changed by haskell. Don't be naïve. |
| 19:42:42 | <monochrom> | Do you want haskell to adopt mainstream values? |
| 19:43:13 | <monochrom> | For example utter disrespect of types? |
| 19:43:52 | <sm> | Programmers' Fabulous Fantasies For Haskell ? |
| 19:44:02 | <monochrom> | The "I'm bad at math, and proud of it" anti-intellectual attitude? |
| 19:44:44 | <monochrom> | Note that that attitude means that even our "foldr :: (a -> b -> b) -> ..." is "too advanced, PhD level". |
| 19:44:54 | <maerwald> | I was good at math, but I remember none of it. Does that count? |
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| 19:45:15 | <awpr> | also that it's too hard to learn the word "Endo" as "function that returns the same type it accepts" |
| 19:45:35 | <monochrom> | No. Haskell just needs the aptitude, not the memory. |
| 19:45:52 | <maerwald> | I mean come on... how would you keep those things in memory if you have no exposure. And most coding gives you no exposure. |
| 19:46:06 | <awpr> | _disclaimer: any similarity to current topics of discussion in any other media is purely coincidental and not to be construed as passing judgment on any other forum_ |
| 19:46:26 | <monochrom> | Here is an example of being bad at math in a way that hinders learning Haskell. |
| 19:46:44 | <monochrom> | Suppose I define f(x) = x+1 and g(x) = 2*x, and now ask you about f(g(x)). |
| 19:47:16 | <monochrom> | Here is some people's mental model that leads them to failure. You won't believe it, but I saw it happen. |
| 19:47:38 | <monochrom> | They think of "x" as a global variable and there is only one global x. |
| 19:47:56 | <maerwald> | that's rough |
| 19:48:02 | <sshine> | does HLS understand 'default-extensions'? I have OverloadedStrings listed there, and I get a String/Text error in haskell-mode + lsp-haskell in Emacs. |
| 19:48:14 | <maerwald> | is x an object or a class? |
| 19:48:16 | <maerwald> | :D |
| 19:48:21 | <monochrom> | So for example if I start talking about f(g(5)), their trouble is that now x=5 and also x=g(5) and also x=g(x). |
| 19:49:19 | <monochrom> | You don't remember the quadratic formula, but you still retain your skill of plugging in, you have a correct mental model of functions. That's all I need. |
| 19:49:31 | <awpr> | to be fair it's easy to mix up xs in different scopes when evaluating mentally, even if you know in principle that they're unrelated things |
| 19:49:35 | <hpc> | this is why haskell has unicode support, so you can have 144,762 variables instead of 26 |
| 19:49:49 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 19:49:50 | <sm> | sshine: for me, most things HLS seem to depend on the phase of the moon... |
| 19:50:09 | <sshine> | https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server/issues/590 |
| 19:50:15 | <monochrom> | Well 144762 variables still can't help you with f(5) + f(6). |
| 19:50:43 | <awpr> | which is to say, doing capture-avoiding substitution in my head isn't the easiest thing |
| 19:51:45 | <awpr> | huh, I just realized I reason about `f(g(x))` in something more akin to point-free form, i.e. interpret `f` into like "add one" and `g` into "double" |
| 19:52:01 | <monochrom> | Another mainstream value is banning recursion. |
| 19:52:40 | <sshine> | sm, my project is actually ghc-8.10, as that issue suggests would work. but I'm betting that the hlint my emacs refers to is compiled against another version. |
| 19:52:54 | <monochrom> | I would love to be one of the hippies and soften that to "they just avoid recursion" but no, there are companies that explicitly ban recursion in their code base. |
| 19:53:39 | <monochrom> | On the very ground that "we want to hire employees who can't deal with recursion". |
| 19:53:50 | <sm> | sshine: sounds likely.. unfortunately there are still so many ways for things to go wrong, and not enough easy troubleshooting techniques |
| 19:54:06 | <awpr> | is that a _value_, or an observation that recursion in C-family languages is just a shorthand for "technically-O(1) algorithm for computing stack overflows" |
| 19:54:18 | sm | is a little down on HLS as it hasn't been working in some projects lately. It'll pass |
| 19:54:32 | <awpr> | ah, if it's about hiring then it sounds like a value |
| 19:54:35 | <maerwald> | my manager once said that "coders -> coders who understand recursion -> coders who understand dynamic programming" |
| 19:54:46 | <monochrom> | It is a value. The reason for banning recursion is perceived human difficulty, not perceived machine penalty. |
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| 19:55:32 | awpr | wants to see an inductively-defined microservice |
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| 19:55:58 | <maerwald> | I'd probably ban effects system in my company |
| 19:57:06 | <monochrom> | gcc does TCO very well, and I suspect many other C compilers. You ought to take C off the "C-family" you have in mind. :) |
| 19:57:36 | <hpc> | monochrom: if you're a C shop you ban pointers and malloc instead |
| 19:58:18 | <monochrom> | I would be OK with "Java-family" and if it included javascript. |
| 19:58:38 | <awpr> | how about just "non-Hindley-Milner family" |
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| 19:58:55 | <Hecate> | monochrom: damn, I had no idea gcc had support for TCO |
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| 19:59:10 | <awpr> | Python, C, Perl, Turing machines, it's all the same |
| 19:59:24 | <monochrom> | You have to turn on -O2. But it has been there for decades. |
| 20:00:15 | <maerwald> | I think I used recursion in C once |
| 20:00:16 | <monochrom> | This is why when I was young I said "people write-protect their brains upon graduation or 21-yo" |
| 20:01:05 | <Hecate> | monochrom: wait, has it been here for *decades* but not in a "you can absolutely, always rely on it" way? |
| 20:01:33 | <Hecate> | Because I'm reading StackOverflow posts and apparently you shouldn't rely on this behaviour being brought to you by the C compiler |
| 20:01:53 | <Hecate> | unless you're doing "__attribute__((musttail))" |
| 20:02:02 | <Hecate> | (which is clang-specific |
| 20:02:03 | <Hecate> | ) |
| 20:02:04 | <monochrom> | Put it this way, I have never seen a failure example. |
| 20:02:23 | <monochrom> | And I wouldn't trust stackoverflow either. |
| 20:02:29 | <Hecate> | ah, quite unfortunately this is very much not in line with what C is all about :P |
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| 20:02:51 | <monochrom> | I can be talked into "you don't know that you can always use gcc, so don't use gcc-specific features". |
| 20:02:57 | <awpr> | I mean, writing code that isn't capable of being a tail-call is pretty common. recursion over a binary tree -> only one of two is a tail call at most; doing any postprocessing on the recursive result -> not a tail call unless GCC is very heroic about code motion; etc. |
| 20:03:14 | <monochrom> | But if I already know that it's gcc, "it randomly decides not to optimize" is absurd. |
| 20:03:41 | <monochrom> | And instead, I have seen an example of stackoverflow being wrong. |
| 20:03:50 | <awpr> | is it possible "randomly" is code for "I didn't understand my code was not tail-call-compatible"? |
| 20:04:41 | <Hecate> | monochrom: to be extremely honest I only do two (mutually exclusive) things when I code in C: Either I overfit my code for one precise compiler, or I keep the standard in mind and then everything is UB :P |
| 20:04:45 | <monochrom> | No, it means that I have not changed by code, I at most upgrade to a newer gcc version. |
| 20:04:51 | <justsomeguy> | stackoverflow is wrong so often , I don't know people even us it. |
| 20:05:01 | <justsomeguy> | s/us it/use it/ |
| 20:05:47 | <awpr> | monochrom: right, I meant if you encounter people in the wild suggesting GCC "randomly" doesn't TCO, perhaps the truth is they incorrectly merged the cases where |
| 20:06:00 | <awpr> | where TCO is possible and happens with the cases where it's impossible and doesn't |
| 20:06:40 | <monochrom> | Suppose you want to know whether stdin will hit EOF the next time you read one byte. Stackoverflow will suggest fseek(to the end) and see if ftell says 0. |
| 20:06:50 | <monochrom> | That's how wrong stackoverflow is. |
| 20:07:12 | <sshine> | sm, do you fall back on ghcid or just alt-tabbing and recompiling? |
| 20:07:55 | <monochrom> | And the only reason I know is because I put that question on exam, then my TAs noticed that several students gave that same wrong answer, and we thought of "maybe the students googled it" |
| 20:11:01 | <maerwald> | https://git.io/JzqXg ...this C recursion likely doesn't optimize well :p |
| 20:11:25 | <Hecate> | monochrom: excellent |
| 20:12:15 | <Hecate> | maerwald: why so? |
| 20:12:35 | <maerwald> | there are two |
| 20:12:59 | <maerwald> | I remember it blowing up |
| 20:13:08 | <Hecate> | oh indeed |
| 20:13:31 | <monochrom> | Well yeah I had T in TCO, I don't expect smart use-CPS-to-enable-TCO either. |
| 20:13:39 | <maerwald> | but it kinda fits the project |
| 20:14:00 | <monochrom> | And it is unwise to get CPS involved anyway. |
| 20:14:36 | enikar | paste here the first anwser find with ddg on stackoverflow: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1428911/detecting-eof-in-c |
| 20:14:49 | <monochrom> | If you have a genuine non-tail call, CPS just trades stack space for thunk space. |
| 20:15:33 | <monochrom> | And if you cite "defunctionalization" after that, you just trade thunk space back for user-defined stack space. |
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| 20:16:23 | <monochrom> | You are not saving space, you're just rebranding. |
| 20:18:43 | <sm> | sshine: yes ghcid is my usual fallback |
| 20:19:25 | <sm> | or sometimes, stack build --fast --file-watch |
| 20:19:26 | <maerwald> | coding without instant feedback is healthy |
| 20:19:50 | <monochrom> | enikar: Enjoy https://stackoverflow.com/questions/47320496/how-to-determine-if-stdin-is-empty/47320694 |
| 20:19:50 | <sm> | sometimes, yes.. I think it depends what you're doing |
| 20:20:14 | <maerwald> | sm: coding |
| 20:20:16 | <maerwald> | :D |
| 20:20:25 | <monochrom> | Enjoy the fact that the voice of reason, "getchar, check, ungetchar" carries a negative score. |
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| 20:23:42 | <enikar> | monochrom: very bad, I agree, but my search was "How to detect the end of file in C?" |
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| 20:24:12 | <monochrom> | My students found that one because my exam question wording was "stdin ... empty ..." |
| 20:24:50 | <enikar> | ok, they even didn't reformulate |
| 20:24:56 | <monochrom> | I think it's a good thing that a question's wording leads to googling for the wrong thing. |
| 20:25:59 | <monochrom> | There was one time I consciously arranged for that. |
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| 20:26:33 | <kenran> | Is anyone of you perhaps using fourmolu in haskell-mode with Emacs? I'm seeing "ended with errors", but there are no errors to be seen, and it works well on the command line |
| 20:26:44 | <monochrom> | I once gave an assignment that amounts to a version of the probability monad. (I chose a free monad form, i.e., a decision tree.) |
| 20:27:13 | <monochrom> | Clearly, if I called it "probability monad", it's way too googlable. |
| 20:27:38 | <monochrom> | It was a stroke of genius that I thought up calling it "random monad". |
| 20:27:56 | <monochrom> | It's way too googlable too but you'll get very misled. |
| 20:28:15 | <monochrom> | Indeed I had a very lost student who emailed me "is it OK to import Control.Monad.Random?" |
| 20:28:44 | <enikar> | ah! |
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| 23:15:58 | <Guest21> | What is an example of a type that is a functor that you cannot write a valid ‘join :: f (f a) -> f a’ for? |
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| 23:17:24 | <Cajun> | (btw its the backtick ` for the monospace font, it should be on the same key as the tilde ~) |
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| 23:18:01 | <Guest21> | oh ok |
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| 23:21:05 | <geekosaur> | ZipList, I think |
| 23:21:32 | <geekosaur> | because you never get aroiund to joining, because both results are infinite |
| 23:22:38 | <geekosaur> | (ZipList is a newtype over lists which has an Applicative instance but no Monad instance) |
| 23:22:56 | <hpc> | you can still write something with join's type, it just doesn't obey the laws |
| 23:23:03 | <geekosaur> | yeh |
| 23:24:08 | <Guest21> | join :: [[a]] -> [a]. Ok I’m gonna study this one. I’ve seen this discussed as a sort of canonical example of a type that is a Applicative but not a Monad |
| 23:24:24 | <hpc> | [] is very much a Monad |
| 23:24:29 | <hpc> | ZipList is different |
| 23:24:32 | <geekosaur> | that's a normal list. look at how the ZipList Applicative is defined |
| 23:24:41 | <Guest21> | Right ziplist wraps this |
| 23:24:48 | <hpc> | https://hoogle.haskell.org/?hoogle=ZipList |
| 23:25:58 | <Cajun> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/dd6I1dBV is the applicative instance specifically |
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| 23:30:00 | enikar | thought, join works only with monads (and it can be use to define monad instead of bind) |
| 23:32:01 | <geekosaur> | correct |
| 23:33:03 | <geekosaur> | well, kinda-sorta. you can define join for more things than monads, but you can't then go on to define a law-abiding monad |
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| 23:33:55 | <geekosaur> | like as above where you can define join for ZipLists but the result doesn't obey the monad laws |
| 23:34:00 | <hpc> | fun fact, there was once a type class that you couldn't write an unlawful instance for, called Pointed |
| 23:34:05 | <hpc> | which consisted of just pure from Applicative |
| 23:34:06 | <geekosaur> | this is why there are laws separate from the function definitions |
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| 23:34:24 | <hpc> | once people realized that though, the class became rather pointless |
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| 23:34:50 | <geekosaur> | Haskell's type system isn't strong enough to capture many typeclass laws |
| 23:34:57 | <hpc> | (the laws it had were actually free theorems) |
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| 23:36:23 | <geekosaur> | tbh I thought Pointed never really existed outside the Typeclassopedia because it was known to not be useful |
| 23:36:42 | <Guest21> | geekosaur: are there languages with a strong enough type system that they can prove type class laws at compile time? |
| 23:37:03 | <geekosaur> | proof checking languages like Idris and Agda, I believe |
| 23:37:17 | <geekosaur> | (note that this doens't mean they're easy or cheap) |
| 23:37:29 | <Guest21> | Ok I didn’t know these languages used typeclasses |
| 23:37:57 | <geekosaur> | I'm not sure Idris does formally but you can describe them in it |
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| 23:47:28 | <Guest21> | Do Agda programmers look at Haskell somewhat similarly to Haskell programmers look at a dynamically typed language? For example in my Perl code I always worry in the back of my head that I’m gonna do something accidentally try to equate two strings with (==) |
| 23:47:47 | <Guest21> | Err didn’t mean to enter so fast |
| 23:48:16 | <Guest21> | Anyways I wonder if Agda people see writing an unlawful type class instance equally as dangerous |
| 23:49:26 | <Guest21> | writing an illegal typeclass instance would be even worse because the program wouldn’t halt |
| 23:50:24 | <Guest21> | My perl example is a poor one |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-09-18.