Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2021-09-23 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:20:36 <Axman6> janus: I sometimes feel like filter should have the type filter :: (a -> Maybe a) -> [a] -> [a] because it is clear(er) which results are kept and rejected, but that also too general
00:20:54 <glguy> :t mapMaybe
00:20:55 <lambdabot> (a -> Maybe b) -> [a] -> [b]
00:21:14 <Axman6> data KeepDrop = Keep | Drop; filter :: (a -> KeepDrop) -> [a] -> [a]
00:21:40 <Axman6> at least that is clear whether you are filtering in or out
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00:23:38 <monochrom> > guard (== 10) [1, 10, 2, 10, 3]
00:23:40 <lambdabot> error:
00:23:40 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Bool’ with actual type ‘a0 -> Bool’
00:23:40 <lambdabot> • In the first argument of ‘guard’, namely ‘(== 10)’
00:23:50 <monochrom> oops nevermind!
00:24:30 <monochrom> But I love too general.
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00:25:01 <monochrom> Alternative m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> [a] :)
00:25:46 <monochrom> newtype BoolProxy a = BoolProxy Bool >:)
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00:27:11 <monochrom> err Alternative is too general. filter needs a way to ask "is this empty?"
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00:28:16 <monochrom> (Monoid b, Eq b) => (a -> b) -> [a] -> [a] has a better chance, filter can ask "f x == mempty"
00:29:03 <monochrom> To be sure, equality is too strong, not general enough.
00:30:11 <monochrom> Foldable m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> [a] Last proposal, Foldable supports "null". >:)
00:31:35 <monochrom> I think a lower-tech solution is s/filter/select/
00:32:31 <monochrom> But I like my well-versedness of Foldable :)
00:33:05 <Axman6> yeah, I would definitely like to see the name changed. alternative name to not confuse SQLians could be `keep`
00:33:41 <monochrom> I think there is nothing to confuse. In fact it needs the SQL analogy.
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00:34:17 <monochrom> "select (== 10) xs" and "select * from xs where x=10"
00:34:57 <awpr> isn't "select" supposed to refer to the field projection operator?
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00:35:34 <monochrom> hehe OK!
00:36:45 <monochrom> Use generalised list comprehensions (TransformListComp), then it is SQL. >:)
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00:39:18 <monochrom> Enjoy this depravity! https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2018-February/128607.html
00:41:41 <monochrom> like SQL but in IO ---> "is this stored procedure?" meme :)
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06:46:58 <c_wraith> Oh hey, I finally found the documentation for what happened to typed template haskell in GHC 9: https://github.com/mpickering/ghc-proposals/blob/code-texp/proposals/0000-code-texp.rst
06:47:29 <c_wraith> man, that wasn't even listed in the ghc release notes
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08:53:51 <lortabac> imagine it was technically possible to have Functor and Traversable instances for Set, would such instances be lawful?
08:54:46 <dminuoso> No.
08:55:14 <dminuoso> `fmap (const 1)`
08:55:17 <dminuoso> What now?
08:55:20 <lortabac> technically the laws are not violated, but the documentation says "preserving the structure" and "same shape" in bold
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08:57:10 <dminuoso> Or rather, if we had functor on fmap, we could modify the set structure
08:57:22 <dminuoso> functor on set, argh.
08:59:27 <lortabac> I agree with you that it's morally wrong, but a colleague of mine made me notice that the laws are not violated
08:59:56 <dminuoso> Is associativity preserved?>
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09:00:14 <dminuoso> I'd think not
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09:02:18 <dminuoso> But otoh, if we take free theorems, we just need to prove that `fmap id = id`
09:02:22 <dminuoso> So I guess you're right.
09:02:29 <lortabac> I don't actually know
09:03:16 <dminuoso> I mean composition of functions is associative, irrespective of whether they are injective or not.
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09:04:15 <tomsmeding> I don't even see an associativity law in the Functor type class
09:04:40 <dminuoso> Oh sorry, I meant composition.
09:04:47 <dminuoso> Im going back to work now.
09:05:14 <tomsmeding> Things get hairy though when the ordering on your contained types doesn't have structural equality
09:05:56 <tomsmeding> like, data Thing a = Thing a Int ; instance Eq a => Eq (Thing a) where Thing x _ == Thing y _ = x == y ; instance Ord a => Ord (Thing a) where compare (Thing x _) (Thing y _) = compare x y
09:06:38 <dminuoso> Does it, though?
09:07:04 <tomsmeding> let f (Thing x y) = Thing y x
09:07:07 <dminuoso> Just to get that part away, there is a library on hackage with constrained typeclasses.
09:07:16 <dminuoso> So with that we could make a Functor-like typeclass for Set.
09:07:22 <dminuoso> Cant recall its name right now
09:07:49 <dminuoso> But we can relatively trivially make it ourselves, you just carry a set of constraints as an associated type in the typeclass.
09:07:53 <tomsmeding> fmap f (fmap f (Set.fromList [Thing 1 10, Thing 2 10, Thing 3 10])) = Set.fromList [Thing ? 10] for some non-deterministic value of ?
09:08:08 <tomsmeding> but f . f = id, so fmap (f . f) (Set.fromList [things]) = Set.fromList [things]
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09:08:23 <lortabac> thanks tomsmeding
09:08:46 <dminuoso> tomsmeding: We only need to prove `fmap id = id`
09:08:49 <tomsmeding> this example presented by Thing 10 1 == Thing 10 2
09:08:51 <dminuoso> Free theorems.
09:09:00 <dminuoso> Though, do they even apply here?
09:09:02 <tomsmeding> well fmap id = id here!
09:09:06 <dminuoso> I think they do.
09:09:08 <dminuoso> Yes.
09:09:15 <tomsmeding> but the composition law doesn't hold :p
09:09:52 <tomsmeding> but really, the type of some 'ordfmap' would be (Ord a, Ord b) => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
09:10:03 <dminuoso> tomsmeding: mmm, arguably thye are still the same.
09:10:13 <tomsmeding> meaning that it has two additional pieces of data, the Ord dictionaries; so I think the free theorem would get a lot more complicated
09:10:26 tomsmeding doesn't know enough about free theorems to be able to say what they would become here
09:10:33 <dminuoso> So lets make it concrete
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09:17:33 <tomsmeding> dminuoso: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/dIxK0hCQ
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09:21:12 <dminuoso> Ah.
09:25:52 <sshine> when 'data Foo f = Foo { fooBar :: f Bar }' cannot derive Eq, Ord, Show, is that because of an impossibility? I imagine that the instance would have to look like 'Show (f Bar) => Show (Foo f)'...
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09:26:10 <tomsmeding> also not when you set FlexibleContexts?
09:26:46 <tomsmeding> in any case, with FlexibleContexts, you can use StandaloneDeriving to write it yourself: deriving instance Show (f Bar) => Show (Foo f)
09:26:48 <merijn> sshine: You can standalone derive it
09:26:57 <merijn> ah, too late
09:26:59 tomsmeding was first
09:27:17 <merijn> (Show1 f) might also work :p
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09:29:05 <sshine> thanks :)
09:31:58 <sshine> then if I've got a whole bunch of fields prefixed with f, then that seems a little inconvenient. I guess I could derive my instances for particular f rather than all f.
09:33:17 <sshine> there's a bunch for which it doesn't make any sense anyways.
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09:46:24 <kuribas> lens > gcc: runInteractiveProcess: posix_spawnp: resource exhausted (Cannot allocate memory)
09:46:31 <kuribas> Why would lens require > 3 GB?
09:46:38 <kuribas> also, why does lens call gcc?
09:46:48 <kuribas> or is this during linking?
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09:52:48 <[exa]> kuribas: likely
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10:30:54 <tomsmeding> kuribas: compiling aeson takes >2GB, if I recall correctly the same holds for vector, perhaps to a slightly lesser degree
10:30:59 <tomsmeding> /me is not surprised
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10:31:48 <kuribas> tomsmeding: I have 3 GB, (no swap).
10:31:59 <kuribas> we added 2 GB and 4 GB swap, now it compiles :)
10:32:16 <tomsmeding> haskell (tm)
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10:33:57 <maerwald> `module <...> cannot be linked; it is only available as a boot module`
10:34:00 <maerwald> uh
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10:34:48 <maerwald> this is a lie
10:37:00 <maerwald> I think TH breaks this
10:37:07 <tomsmeding> that's what you think
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11:35:27 <TDANG_> I want to learn Plutus. Where to get started?
11:37:39 <maerwald> TDANG_: https://plutus-pioneer-program.readthedocs.io/en/latest/index.html
11:38:02 <maerwald> if you've never done haskell, that won't be an easy experience
11:38:27 <maerwald> even for haskellers I'd say plutus is pretty advanced Haskell and has complicated API
11:38:33 <TDANG_> I learned basic Haskell already
11:38:47 <maerwald> maybe wait for Marlowe
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11:38:57 <maerwald> Plutus isn't basic haskell, unfortunately
11:39:08 <TDANG_> Oh, I see
11:40:00 <TDANG_> So I need to learn advance Haskell first
11:40:01 <TDANG_> Thanks
11:41:26 <sshine> TDANG_, I think you start here: https://docs.cardano.org/plutus/learn-about-plutus
11:41:58 <TDANG_> ya, thanks
11:42:28 <TDANG_> any source from Youtube?
11:43:22 <sshine> TDANG_, I don't know. I wish I knew of some way to discover what youtube videos existed given some set of keywords. :-D
11:43:55 <TDANG_> ;-) thanks anyway
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11:52:02 <sshine> TDANG_, it seems that the main challenge in learning Plutus is understanding the domain model of the Cardano blockchain. even the simplest examples of a Plutus contract uses a bunch of terminology and what appears to be stubs.
11:52:12 <sshine> TDANG_, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEn6jUo-0vU -- I think this is a good start on youtube.
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11:53:37 <TDANG_> Ya, I watched that video series and it seems to be too complicated too
11:53:53 <maerwald> sshine: I think the only time when you actually submit a contract is when you *redeem*. The "control flow" isn't well documented imo.
11:54:16 <TDANG_> Ya
11:54:38 <maerwald> before that it's just addresses and hashes
11:54:48 <maerwald> a huge pile of those
11:55:01 <TDANG_> Phew
11:55:17 <maerwald> TDANG_: but you can try the plutus playground
11:55:28 <maerwald> https://playground.plutus.iohkdev.io/
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12:07:36 <sshine> maerwald, good to know. I don't know much about how Cardano's runtime works.
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13:27:46 <dminuoso> Does someone know where in Haskell I can find IMF time/date serialization routines? Im already using servant/warp, so if there's something in my transitive dependency tree that'd be ideal
13:28:21 <dminuoso> If it helps, that's the same format as HTTP Expires or Last-Modified headers use.
13:29:43 <dminuoso> My concrete problem is, I want to encode a timestamp in an Expires header in a servant response.
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14:23:06 <superstar64> Is `(forall m. Monad m => m a)` isomorphic to `a`?
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14:23:29 <dminuoso> No.
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14:24:33 <superstar64> what stops it from being isomorphic? Can't you instantiate `m` to Identity and convert Identity to any monad using pure?
14:24:48 <dminuoso> Mmm
14:25:07 <dminuoso> superstar64: impredicativity stops it.
14:25:17 <dminuoso> To instantiate `a` at a type involving a forall requires impredicative types
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14:25:44 <dminuoso> Or maybe I misunderstand
14:26:02 <earthy> dminuoso: does hodatime not help?
14:26:33 <dminuoso> let's have a look
14:28:03 <superstar64> and if it is isomorphic, then this should be a valid definition for bind right? `(>>=) :: Monad m => m a -> ((forall m'. Monad m' => m' a) -> m b) -> m b`
14:28:46 <dminuoso> % to :: Monad m => (forall a m. Monad m => m a) -> (forall b. b); to x = runIdentity x
14:28:46 <yahb> dminuoso:
14:29:06 <dminuoso> But going back - not sure how to do that without impredicativity
14:30:02 <dminuoso> % from :: (forall b. b) -> (forall a m. Monad m => m a); from x = x
14:30:02 <yahb> dminuoso:
14:30:04 <dminuoso> Oh uh.
14:30:17 <dminuoso> I did not expect that
14:30:29 <earthy> but really, you probably want to just look at Data.Time.Format.ISO8601 from the time package.
14:30:49 <dminuoso> ericson2314: ISO8601 is not IMF time.
14:30:58 <dminuoso> So its not valid
14:31:25 <dminuoso> Can someone explain to me why `from` type checks and doesnt fail with an impredicativity error?
14:31:32 <ericson2314> bad tab complete? :)
14:31:48 <dminuoso> ericson2314: Seems like it. I swear weechat has some strange bugs with tab completion.
14:32:05 <superstar64> dminuoso, i think those definitions are wrong. the types are you want are: `from :: (forall m. Monad m => m a) -> a` and `to :: a -> forall m. Monad m => m a`
14:32:21 <superstar64> `to` here is just pure
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14:33:15 <dminuoso> Mmm yeah
14:33:15 <superstar64> and i think eta expanded runIdentity works for `from` here.
14:33:17 <ericson2314> no worries :)
14:33:19 <dminuoso> % from :: (forall m. Monad m => m a) -> a; from x = runIdentity x
14:33:19 <yahb> dminuoso:
14:33:41 <dminuoso> % to :: Monad m => a -> m a; to = pure
14:33:41 <yahb> dminuoso:
14:33:57 <dminuoso> superstar64: guess that's an isomorphism then.
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14:35:02 <superstar64> The reason I'm asking is because I'm making my own language and I'm considering putting everything inside a monad.
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14:35:42 <superstar64> and I can use that definition of (>>=) I posted earlier to even have variables be inside monads
14:37:31 <earthy> ah. Data.Time.Format.HTTP from the time-http package, or explicitly use a format string with Data.Time.Format.formatTime
14:38:42 <superstar64> I'll require let generalization for every variable binding but I think I get imperative looking code where the type check can tell if it's pure or not.
14:39:20 <superstar64> I should probably look into effect systems to so if something like this exists yet or not.
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14:40:33 <k``> When you `SPECIALIZE` a class method, does it only specialise the definition given in the class's definition, or will it also specialise instance-specific definitions?
14:44:01 <k``> For a more concrete example, say `Foldable` specialized `foldMap` . Would that only apply to the 'default' `foldMap` defined with `foldr`, or any `foldMap` that an instance defines?
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14:58:36 <sshine> I'm using 'req' to create an authenticated HTTP request. but running my request, I don't get any output. I suspect an error isn't propagated. I tried changing the retry policy so I'm not waiting a long time, but I'm still not getting anything.
15:00:13 <sshine> I also tried to change 'jsonResponse' into 'bsResponse' just to see if it's taking a long time to decode, but still no response.
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15:01:38 <sshine> https://gist.github.com/sshine/fd27702785b50f401e088134dc77ca61
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15:02:00 <sshine> can anyone suggest a way for me to get debugging output?
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15:13:54 <sshine> pointing it to a netcat, it seems like it doesn't send anything.
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15:24:46 <carbolymer> any ideas how can I write a such function: MonadBaseControl b m => (a -> c) -> b (StM m a) -> b (StM m c)
15:25:05 <carbolymer> I can't wrap my head around MonadBaseControl and what can I assume about `StM m`
15:26:11 <c_wraith> Do you mean STM?
15:26:18 <carbolymer> no
15:26:27 <carbolymer> c_wraith: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/monad-control-1.0.3.1/docs/Control-Monad-Trans-Control.html#t:StM
15:26:28 <monochrom> Is b a Functor? Is StM m a Functor? This type looks like fmap . fmap
15:27:14 <carbolymer> monochrom: b is a Monad and Applicative, StM can be basically anything
15:27:15 <monochrom> I.e., fmap (fmap (f :: a->c)) :: b (StM m a) -> b (StM m c)
15:27:17 <carbolymer> probably usually a functor
15:27:44 <carbolymer> hmm
15:28:09 <carbolymer> I could add additional constraint that would make it work for `Functor (StM m)`
15:28:14 <c_wraith> StM is a type family. that makes things complicated.
15:28:35 <carbolymer> s/complicated/interesting
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15:35:15 <k``> I can never remember this: In error messages, which is the 'Expected type' and which is the 'Actual type'? (I.e. which one is from the signature and which is from the value?)
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15:36:18 <monochrom> I usually don't care. But it seems expected is from the outside, actual is from the inside.
15:37:01 <monochrom> > 'x' :: Bool
15:37:02 <lambdabot> error:
15:37:03 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Bool’ with actual type ‘Char’
15:37:03 <lambdabot> • In the expression: 'x' :: Bool
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15:37:13 <monochrom> perhaps that helps
15:37:17 <k``> OK, so if I `foldr f` where `f :: b -> a -> b`, the expected type is `a -> b -> b` and the actual type is `b -> a -> b`?
15:37:44 <k``> > foldr (flip (:))
15:37:46 <lambdabot> error:
15:37:46 <lambdabot> • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a ~ [a]
15:37:46 <lambdabot> Expected type: [a] -> [a] -> [a]
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15:38:31 <monochrom> > (undefined :: Char) :: Bool
15:38:33 <lambdabot> error:
15:38:33 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Bool’ with actual type ‘Char’
15:38:33 <lambdabot> • In the expression: (undefined :: Char) :: Bool
15:38:47 <k``> Thanks, monochrom!
15:38:55 <monochrom> > (True :: Char) :: Bool
15:38:56 <lambdabot> error:
15:38:56 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Char’ with actual type ‘Bool’
15:38:56 <lambdabot> • In the expression: (True :: Char) :: Boolerror:
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16:06:29 <awpr> sshine: when I was defining a bunch of those types, I ended up writing instances like `deriving stock instance (forall a. Eq a => Eq (f a), Eq x) => Eq (MyType x f)`
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16:07:14 <awpr> when there are lots of fields and few `Type` type parameters, it saves a lot of typing out `Eq (f Int), Eq (f String), ......`
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16:42:02 <awpr> sshine: also apparently I managed to get better results on this than I remembered: https://github.com/google/hs-ten/blob/e0cf34abb85a0df37f8bd2f4ba0270264455c58f/ten/src/Data/Ten/Ap.hs#L60
16:42:19 <awpr> wrapping fields in that, you get back the ability to say `deriving Eq` with no fanfare
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16:58:00 <sshine> awpr, awesome, thanks for replying!
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17:06:59 <carbolymer> awpr: you're using haskell at google?
17:08:46 <awpr> I used to work on a primarily-Haskell project. I'm not anymore, though, the libraries are more of a side project for me atm
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17:19:33 <carbolymer> I think I've solved it: https://bpa.st/4ZHQ
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18:23:03 <maerwald> So I'm planning to switch to another operating system/distro, because fedora is awful. Anything particularly haskell friendly? (e.g. runtime switchable gcc, ncurses compat symlinks, etc.)
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18:25:35 <carbolymer> maerwald: you want to install haskell deps on an os level?
18:25:43 <maerwald> no
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18:26:02 <dsal> I've been enjoying nixos, but it's divisive. :)
18:26:18 <maerwald> 100% no
18:26:39 <monochrom> From "runtime switchable gcc" I think of nix or docker.
18:26:55 <maerwald> I know at least 2 distros that can do it, but they are source distros
18:27:04 <monochrom> I am speaking this in the sense of narrowing down to {nix, docker}
18:27:10 <carbolymer> maerwald: I'm using Arch and it's great so far, but a few caveats: I manage haskell packages through stack & cabal; it's better to install stack and cabal from packages statically linked (binaries)
18:27:41 <monochrom> I understand that other constraints will shrink that set further. Possibly to {} and we throw the towel.
18:28:32 <monochrom> But let's look at the bright side!
18:29:18 <monochrom> From "fedora is awful" I think of a very large set, {ubuntu, gentoo, ... a lot of things are less bad than fedora} :)
18:30:17 <c_wraith> I get a lot of mileage from separating haskell from the OS entirely.
18:30:25 <c_wraith> pick an OS you like, then use ghcup
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18:30:42 <monochrom> I use ubuntu, and if I use ghcup instead of ubuntu's ghc packages, it's haskell friendly. I haven't needed to switch gcc at all though.
18:30:58 <maerwald> c2hs breakages sometimes require older gcc's
18:31:00 <monochrom> But we're answering the author of ghcup so there is a bit of irony here. :)
18:31:04 <maerwald> at least that happened on fedora
18:31:34 <maerwald> one morning, I couldn't build any of c2hs packages
18:31:39 <monochrom> Right? "Hey maerwald! Have you tried ghcup?" hahaha
18:32:00 <maerwald> occasionally
18:32:09 <geekosaur> ubuntu often lets you select versions of things. no idea if that applies to gcc but gcc9 hasn't landed yet
18:32:24 <maerwald> I'm honestly leaning towards windows
18:32:37 <carbolymer> wat
18:32:46 <monochrom> Ah yeah you can co-install multiple versions of gcc on ubuntu, then say "gcc-x.y"
18:32:52 <maerwald> 1. has great virtualization, 2. has WSL2, 3. suspend to ram and power/therml throttling actually works
18:33:00 <maerwald> but then... all of the rest is awful
18:33:06 <c_wraith> oh. yes, I only use linux in wsl2
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18:33:19 <c_wraith> mostly debian.
18:33:23 <geekosaur> hm, looks like we have 7-10 inm various places. then update-alternatives to switch
18:33:32 <monochrom> docker is analogous to wsl in this sense.
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18:34:35 <monochrom> Ironically my laptop is such that linux is better than windows in terms of hardware features working.
18:34:39 <yushyin> I have an anecdote, fedora is the distro that had once deleted some files in the user's home directory during texlive upgrade ... so i don't have the greatest faith in this distro.
18:34:48 <monochrom> windows is hotter than linux, firstly
18:35:18 <maerwald> suspend to ram is broken on my fedora box since a month
18:35:45 <monochrom> secondly, on windows it hangs upon screen sleep, on linux it used to but now fixed.
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18:36:00 <Guest66> huh, my experience with fedora has been very positive. I found it be most polished. the devs are very attentive to details
18:36:32 <monochrom> I wouldn't be surprised if ubuntu works better than fedora for these hardware and sleep issues, but I haven't tried.
18:36:39 <awpr> tbf GHC is the compiler that had once deleted source files when there was a type error, so...
18:36:44 <geekosaur> suspend works fine here
18:36:51 <Guest66> though my thinkpad X1C has a weird issue on linux where the fans spin uncontrollably right after waking from suspend
18:36:57 <carbolymer> What are you saying people. I'm using windows at work and it's a world of pain, everything breaks. I need to reboot to make my peripherals work 1 in 5 times.
18:37:06 <maerwald> Guest66: I have many such problems with my X1 Extreme
18:37:09 <maerwald> it's impossible
18:37:13 <Guest66> ironically hibernate works fine (and it's my only problem)
18:37:17 <geekosaur> I haven't tested hibernate, which is disabled by default since it works on relatively few machines, but it worked on my old laptop
18:37:23 <Guest66> maerwald: it's the 4th gen
18:37:51 <Guest66> why can't lenovo issue a BIOS update and solve my issues
18:37:58 <maerwald> so maybe windows is the only solution...
18:38:22 <Guest66> heresy! I have a windows partiton and I hate it
18:38:25 <maerwald> ghc works fine on WSL2 afaih
18:38:57 <monochrom> WSL2 still doesn't solve the problem of "but which linux?"
18:38:58 <maerwald> in windows itself it works as far as antivirus scanner, windows defender and file locking allow
18:39:09 <maerwald> so half of the time
18:39:10 <Guest66> each time I boot into it I have to wait through 5mins of it burning my cpu running all kinds of weird things in the bg
18:39:31 <Guest66> "Antimalware Service Executable"
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18:39:34 <Guest66> "System"
18:39:36 <monochrom> I bet that gcc on windows will give you more questions, not answers.
18:39:48 <maerwald> msys2 is a cluster...
18:40:07 <yushyin> My windows workstation wakes up from suspend at random times and goes back into suspend mode after a while, a bit annoying i must say.
18:40:12 <Guest66> I heard Peter Haskell say that they once has a bug on ghc for windows that made your src files get deleted
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18:41:20 <Guest66> It's Simon Peyton Jones ... for some reason I thought it was Peter (it was a talk)
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18:42:56 <geekosaur> yeh, it's not hard to find that bug in the gitlab issue tracker
18:44:27 <maerwald> OpenSUSE?
18:45:01 <monochrom> Are they still around?
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18:45:36 <Guest66> uhhh, yes they're a non-negligeable player in the commercial linux market
18:45:39 <monochrom> Distant memory of OpenSuSE, Caldera, OS/2
18:45:53 <monochrom> I still have a Caldera rubber penguin.
18:46:56 <Guest66> I think arch is good if you prefer the devs not mess with upstream too much
18:47:36 <maerwald> Guest66: the reason I wanna leave fedora is because maintainers push whatever upstream claims is stable
18:47:44 <maerwald> arch does the same, constantly breaking your system
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18:48:32 <monochrom> I think ubuntu is better in that regard. They actually have hired devs to vet things.
18:48:57 <Guest66> I think that's not very fair. What does breaking your system mean? if you have dev environemnts then yes I would agree (just use docker)
18:49:12 <geekosaur> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/163
18:49:13 <maerwald> Guest66: your desktop environment, kernel, suspend to ram etc etc
18:49:19 <yushyin> Guest66: this channel has a general dislike for arch, don't bother mentioning it here
18:49:20 <monochrom> At least unless you talk about the multiverse, but that one is vetted by the debian conservative people.
18:49:26 <maerwald> Guest66: I've used arch for 3 years or so, every update broke something
18:49:37 <Guest66> yushyin: hah, too late
18:49:57 <awpr> I use arch whenever I have a choice, and don't plan to change that, but I totally agree that stuff constantly breaks
18:50:04 <geekosaur> arch really messed up its ghc/haskell packaging
18:50:14 <carbolymer> geekosaur: yes
18:50:18 <Guest66> maerwald: I'm very curious about that, any examples of what broke?
18:50:19 <geekosaur> arch itself is okay but use ghcup
18:50:27 <carbolymer> geekosaur: yes
18:50:33 <maerwald> Guest66: your deskopt environment
18:50:41 <carbolymer> geekosaur: or static binaries of stack and cabal
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18:50:54 <maerwald> you don't expect me to have logs from those 200 incidents 10 years ago? :)
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18:51:17 <maerwald> my KDE was constantly broken is all I know
18:51:37 <Guest66> no no I don't mean in that way, it's just that my experience (from 2020 years) was different
18:52:13 <geekosaur> 10 years ago? I think they instituted rawhide to iron those kinds of issues out
18:52:24 <Guest66> oh yes KDE, they updated their _official_ themes and highlighted a bug as old as time: kwin can't handle rounded borders
18:52:36 <Guest66> it annoys me immeasurably
18:52:44 ← arpl parts (~arpl@84-107-171-239.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) ()
18:52:49 <maerwald> changing processes and attitude takes 10 years (minimum)
18:53:02 <Guest66> but not enough to use GNOME, and def no where near going back to bspwm/xmonad
18:53:04 <maerwald> I'm pretty confident I don't want arch
18:53:15 <maerwald> it's sad that alpine linux abandoned desktop
18:53:24 <maerwald> too few musl based distros for desktop
18:53:31 <maerwald> building static haskell exes on the fly is nice
18:53:37 <Guest66> what about Nix?
18:53:47 <maerwald> Guest66: it's awful?
18:53:59 <Guest66> I used it for a couple months, ran away from the FHS incompatibility
18:54:22 <maerwald> Programmers not caring about complexity is when you should leave, yes
18:54:53 <Guest66> "hey here is this tar.gz, just run make on it" is hell when you're on Nix. If it's not in nixpkgs, your will suffer
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18:55:33 <Guest66> and my system was noticeably slower with all the symlinks
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18:56:56 <maerwald> everything is a file -> everything is a symlink
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18:57:32 <awpr> I want to see an "everything is a CAF" OS
18:58:01 <Clint> wht's a caf
18:58:15 <carbolymer> calf without leg
18:58:38 <awpr> Constant Applicative Form, a top-level Haskell binding that just applies something to some arguments
18:59:31 <Guest66> awpr: well how would you implement "files" that way?
18:59:47 <monochrom> Perhaps don't do files at all.
19:00:00 <awpr> unsafePerformIO :)
19:00:03 <monochrom> Have a different data model.
19:00:39 <monochrom> PalmOS did not have files for example. It had a relational database. The way I heard it.
19:00:50 <geekosaur> pick
19:01:21 <geekosaur> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pick_operating_system
19:02:04 <monochrom> Caldera and OS/2 and PalmOS. Anyone wanna try out NeXT or CP/M? Apple Integer BASIC?
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19:03:23 <Guest66> I still can't believe CP/M was lost QDOS
19:03:29 <Guest66> lost to*
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19:05:23 <monochrom> A lot of CP/M spirits still live today. CRLF. 8-character filename plus 3-letter extension.
19:07:52 <geekosaur> com files (memeory images starting at $0100) held on for a remarkably long time
19:08:11 <monochrom> Yeah.
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19:11:00 <monochrom> Interesting, the name "BIOS" may have come from CP/M too.
19:11:28 <geekosaur> probably
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19:14:40 <Guest66> I really don't understand the author's two arguments for writing the Parser type synonym here: https://markkarpov.com/tutorial/megaparsec.html#parsect-and-parsec-monads
19:15:40 <Guest66> when they say "if your code stays polymorphic" do they mean I would write "Parsec Void Text Int" every time?
19:16:50 <Guest66> because to me it's just a matter of not repeating the some composition (for "code beauty" ...)
19:16:58 <geekosaur> no, when you reach that level Parser is just a shorthand. but lots of parser code doesn't refer to most of that so you'd just write an (unused) type variable, and then the excessive polymorphism bites
19:17:14 <monochrom> "GHC cannot do much in terms of optimization if your parsers stay polymorphic"
19:17:49 <monochrom> Type inference gives very polymorphic types.
19:18:21 <Guest66> I'm sorry what's an unused type variable. Could your give me an example where the code stays polymorphic because that's what I'm missing
19:18:23 <geekosaur> that too, if you just lket ghc infer the types it'll iinsert unused type vars
19:18:54 <monochrom> However, I come from another angle.
19:19:36 <monochrom> Most people who talk about code optimizations talk about of personal fantasy.
19:19:52 <monochrom> s/talk about of/talk out of/
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19:21:03 <monochrom> Both kinds of fantasies: how code optimizations work, how much you actually need.
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19:22:18 <mrianbloom> Is anyone successfully using a Haskell binding to Tensorflow?
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19:22:53 <mrianbloom> Python is just causing so many problems, I've been hoping to phase it out.
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19:23:39 <jpds> Seems to be an official thing: https://github.com/tensorflow/haskell
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19:26:17 <monochrom> I look at this whole thing from the points of view of getting things done, teaching, learning.
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19:27:12 <monochrom> If you're getting things done, the actual problem you're solving already determines how much/little polymorphism you should have. You shouldn't even have a choice there.
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19:28:05 <monochrom> And then, in case you need much polymorphism, how to make it fast is a different issue, there are techniques.
19:29:04 <monochrom> And in case you need much monomorphism, and if it means you have to handwrite very long types with like 10 type parameters, how to manage it is also a different issue.
19:30:58 <monochrom> Type aliases shorten your type sigs but makes you remember more names. You are trading reading "speed" vs brain memory recall. The sweet spot depends on your actual code.
19:31:11 <monochrom> s/remember/memorize/
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19:32:09 <monochrom> If you're teaching or learning, Piaget's theory: concrete before abstract, special before general, monomorphic before polymorphic.
19:32:16 <monochrom> It's that simple.
19:33:04 <[exa]> tangible colorful motivation
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19:39:36 <c_wraith> you can often add bounded polymorphism to just about anything.
19:39:46 <c_wraith> So... probably best not to. :)
19:39:50 <c_wraith> :t view
19:39:51 <lambdabot> MonadReader s m => Getting a s a -> m a
19:39:59 <c_wraith> I *still* don't like the type of that
19:40:04 <c_wraith> even though it's clearly useful
19:41:30 <c_wraith> or rather, I don't like that the MonadReader instance most frequently used with it is (->)
19:41:55 <awpr> don't look at `Control.Lens.Indexed` then
19:42:24 <c_wraith> I have on several occasions, because I made the mistake of thinking useful things were in that module
19:42:38 <awpr> that thing is so delicately balanced on the van laarhoven lens types that it just seems like an astonishing bit of luck that it was possible
19:43:02 <[exa]> I'm trying to get `llvm-hs` working in github ubuntu runner and it's telling me that it can't match `forall r1. ContT r1 m a` with `ContT r m a` during installation at some point (AnyCont.hs line 15). Did anyone see/solve that?
19:43:14 <c_wraith> IIRC, that mess was mostly "there are only ever going to be two instances, so we felt fine adding all these other things"
19:45:06 <awpr> [exa]: https://github.com/llvm-hs/llvm-hs/commit/227a33c183a4abc5dfbee50081ee793348e38355 perhaps?
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19:45:56 <[exa]> oh lovely that might be it
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20:35:04 <ixlun> Out of interest does GHC have the ability to fold 'trivial' functions that can then be the basis of compile time checks? I'm thinking something like https://hackage.haskell.org/package/safe-money-0.9.1/docs/Money.html#v:mkSeparators
20:35:56 <ixlun> This returns a `Maybe Separators` but it would be nice if the compiler could do a compile-time check to ensure the critera matches and then the `Maybe` wouldn't be needed.
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20:36:17 <ixlun> Kind of similar to C++'s `constexpr`, I guess.
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20:49:27 <TDANG> How can I translate following statement
20:49:31 <TDANG> hello :: Contract () EmptySchema T.Text ()
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20:51:08 <maerwald> translate?
20:51:23 <monochrom> Translate to what?
20:51:31 <TDANG> I mean, interprete
20:51:42 <TDANG> How do I understand that statement
20:51:44 <maerwald> TDANG: did you follow the plutus pioneer program?
20:51:52 <TDANG> Not yet
20:51:56 <maerwald> please do so
20:51:59 <maerwald> it's explained there
20:52:14 <monochrom> Contract is a type, but it takes 4 type parameters. Here the 4 type parameters are given: (), EmptySchema, T.Text, ().
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20:52:46 <c_wraith> ixlun: ghc will inline and simplify in several cases, which will often achieve the same result. Though it won't do that across recursive functions, and there are other limits too.
20:52:59 <c_wraith> ixlun: if you want to guarantee it happens at compile-time, you need to involve template haskell
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20:53:14 <monochrom> At this point you can do worse than checking out the documentation of this Contract type for real.
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20:54:43 <TDANG> Oh, I got you
20:55:59 <monochrom> Well, either that, or you should learn Haskell syntax for real.
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20:56:20 <monochrom> And at this point I just mean syntax.
20:56:32 <TDANG> great
20:56:48 <TDANG> Is the plutus-pioneer-program here: https://github.com/input-output-hk/plutus-pioneer-program
20:57:10 <monochrom> https://soupi.github.io/rfc/reading_simple_haskell/ can get you to be able to read/guess pretty quickly.
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20:59:21 <Guest51> can anyone help me? https://discourse.haskell.org/t/couldnt-figure-out-what-ghc-version-the-project-is-using/3310/5
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21:14:04 <sshine> I'm trying to create a wrapper around 'req' that takes a 'ToJSON body => Maybe body' as argument. but my attempt fails because 'NoReqBody :: NoReqBody' and 'ReqBodyJson (toJSON body) :: ReqBodyJson Value' don't have the same type.
21:15:09 <sshine> the 'req' function has a bunch of type-class constraints that allows it to take either one as argument, and I'm somehow failing to express some similar ones.
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21:16:59 <awpr> kinda sounds like you're doing something like `maybe NoReqBody ReqBodyJson` that's trying to unify those types
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21:17:35 <awpr> would probably need two different calls to `req` at different types instead
21:18:33 <sshine> exactly that
21:18:55 <sshine> I'll go with two.
21:20:12 <sshine> thanks.
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21:27:57 <sneedsfeed> what should I use if I want to apply a function to a value, then apply that function again to the output repeatedly, each iteration evaluating that output for a condition?
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21:28:36 <monochrom> Perhaps "until" helps. It's in Prelude.
21:28:46 <sneedsfeed> thanks ill check it out
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21:34:22 <sshine> > until (> 1000) (* 2) 1
21:34:24 <lambdabot> 1024
21:34:59 <maerwald> > until (const False) (* 2) 1
21:35:07 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
21:35:26 <Franciman> coding in C++ after 5 years of haskell
21:35:33 <maerwald> it's like dropping a stone into a deep well
21:36:00 <monochrom> > until (\e -> e+1 == 1) (/ 2) 1 :: Double
21:36:02 <lambdabot> 1.1102230246251565e-16
21:36:06 <monochrom> > until (\e -> e+1 == 1) (/ 2) 1 :: Float
21:36:08 <lambdabot> 5.9604645e-8
21:36:15 <monochrom> Instant machine epsilon :)
21:36:17 <awpr> > until odd (*2) (1 :: Int)
21:36:19 <lambdabot> 1
21:36:40 <monochrom> See also https://gist.github.com/AndrewBarfield/2557034
21:37:24 <hpc> monochrom: not quite epsilon
21:37:29 <monochrom> Or perhaps I need to look ahead:
21:37:37 <monochrom> > until (\e -> e/2+1 == 1) (/ 2) 1 :: Float
21:37:39 <lambdabot> 1.1920929e-7
21:37:41 <hpc> > until (\e -> e/2 == e) (/2) 1
21:37:42 <lambdabot> 0.0
21:37:50 <hpc> > until (\e -> e/2 == 0) (/2) 1
21:37:51 <lambdabot> 5.0e-324
21:37:54 <hpc> there we go
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21:38:21 <monochrom> No, machine epsilon is not about e/2==0
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21:38:58 <hpc> oh, i see
21:39:16 <hpc> it's about rounding error, not the smallest float
21:40:24 <monochrom> e/2==0 tells you how much denormalized madness the machine goes out of its way to support.
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21:41:37 <hpc> > floor (1/0) -- the only number that matters
21:41:38 <lambdabot> 1797693134862315907729305190789024733617976978942306572734300811577326758055...
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21:43:03 <monochrom> heh
21:43:10 <monochrom> machine megatron
21:45:20 <sshine> > toRational (read "NaN" :: Double)
21:45:22 <lambdabot> (-26965397022934738615939577861835371004269654684134598591014512173659901370...
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21:46:13 <monochrom> machine batman. (because "nanananananana...")
21:47:53 <hpc> meanwhile in marvel physics, doctor strange decays into doctor up
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21:48:25 <monochrom> haha
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23:23:00 <zzz> why am i getting ‘<$>’ is not a (visible) method of class ‘Functor’? if i define `fmap f a` instead of `f <$> a` the error goes away
23:23:42 <geekosaur> because it's not defined as a class method
23:23:59 <geekosaur> it's defined as `(<$>) = fmap` at the top level
23:24:23 <geekosaur> it'd actually be bad as a method because that would allow them to have different definitions
23:25:49 <zzz> ah right
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All times are in UTC on 2021-09-23.