Logs on 2021-09-26 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 04:55:33 | <hololeap> | type instance forall key. BPMKeyConstraint (MapCompose map f) key = BPMKeyConstraint map key |
| 04:55:42 | <hololeap> | does the "forall key." here do anything special? |
| 04:58:15 | <hololeap> | or is it just making it explicit without changing the behavior? |
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| 05:07:55 | <Cajun> | well what is in the body of the function? it could be using ScopedTypeVariables, and in that case it needs the explicit forall |
| 05:08:03 | <Cajun> | hololeap: ^ |
| 05:08:47 | <hololeap> | it's not a function |
| 05:08:54 | <Cajun> | ah yeah didnt see that |
| 05:09:05 | <Cajun> | its also useful to sometimes put it in because when using TypeApplications, it will apply to the first type variable, so in that case `key` will be applied first |
| 05:10:17 | <hololeap> | yeah, I just wasn't sure if it was going to have any other side effects. I put it there to a) see if it worked that way b) remind me that `key` isn't bound somewhere else |
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| 15:07:27 | <timCF> | Hello! Is there some standard integral type similar to `Natural` but which excludes zero? |
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| 15:07:32 | <janus> | what is this instance useful for? instance Semigroup a => Semigroup (M a) where |
| 15:07:51 | <[exa]> | janus: depending on what's M |
| 15:08:06 | <merijn> | timCF: Probably not |
| 15:08:21 | <janus> | aaah so it's just saying that the M is whatever type is being defined, the actual code is not like that |
| 15:08:26 | <timCF> | merijn: thanks for reply anyway! |
| 15:08:47 | <merijn> | timCF: Seems fairly obscure, so wouldn't expect a "standard" type for that |
| 15:08:54 | <hpc> | you can always newtype ZPlus = PlusOne {minusOne :: Natural} and define all the instances |
| 15:09:04 | <hpc> | might be a lot of work though |
| 15:09:28 | <[exa]> | janus: it says that you can make Semigroup functionality for M (probably a container of) a if `a` is already a semigroup (i.e. supports <> ) |
| 15:09:29 | <merijn> | janus: What it is saying is that "M a" is an instance of Semigroup *iff* 'a' is an instance of Semigroup |
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| 15:10:15 | <[exa]> | janus: if substituing M for Maybe, you'd automatically have `Just x <> Just y` working if `x<>y` would be working |
| 15:10:43 | <merijn> | > (Sum 1, Any True) <> (Sum 3, Any False) |
| 15:10:44 | <lambdabot> | (Sum {getSum = 4},Any {getAny = True}) |
| 15:11:21 | <merijn> | janus: This works because "instance (Semigroup a, Semigroup b) => Semigroup (a, b)" (i.e. "if both elements of a tuple are instances of Semigroup, the tuple is also an instance of Semigroup) |
| 15:13:32 | <janus> | it's from a thread with Gabriella Gonzalez where they talk about preferring that over basing on Alternative: https://twitter.com/GabriellaG439/status/1436722080502849539 |
| 15:14:32 | <janus> | i am trying to understand the different directions one might go , e.g. Brian McKenna argues for not defining it since one can use Ap |
| 15:14:50 | <janus> | i never used Ap, i always find people golfing with it |
| 15:16:39 | <merijn> | janus: Ah, ok, yeah, I see what you're getting at (and I think Brian is wrong) |
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| 15:17:19 | <merijn> | janus: Ok, so in theory, defining a universal "instance (Semigroup a, Applicative f) => Semigroup (f a)" is perfectly fine |
| 15:17:28 | <merijn> | That is a lawful instance |
| 15:17:43 | <merijn> | However, it has the downside that some Applicatives might want *different* monoidal behaviour |
| 15:18:18 | <merijn> | And that generic instance overlaps (and thus makes impossible) any custom instances for specific applicatives. Which is why it doesn't exist |
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| 15:19:03 | <merijn> | The Ap newtype exists to implement that generic instance, without overlapping any (future/possible) custom instances for specific 'f' |
| 15:19:24 | <merijn> | But, as Gabriella says, that's super verbose and annoying to use |
| 15:19:52 | <merijn> | the only real reason *not* to define the "liftA2 (<>)" instance is "if another one makes more sense: |
| 15:20:52 | <merijn> | "because it's much more convenient and pleasant to use" seems a pretty solid argument to rebuke Brian's "why reimplement the generic case" |
| 15:23:46 | <janus> | ok, that does seem sensible |
| 15:24:11 | <janus> | the reason we have to reason with ergonomics, is it because Alt/Alternative are underspecified like phadej argues? |
| 15:24:53 | <janus> | visible in this thread: https://twitter.com/chrislpenner/status/1437113257920274440 |
| 15:26:00 | <merijn> | janus: Alternative and Monoid don't always correspond |
| 15:26:42 | <merijn> | Simple example where lawful Alternative and Monoid do the different thing: Parsers (I think attoparsec has these instances?) |
| 15:27:03 | <merijn> | "parser1 <> parser2" -> parse both and <> their results |
| 15:27:20 | <merijn> | vs "parser1 <|> parser2" -> parse left, if it fails, try right |
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| 15:30:42 | <maerwald> | question is whether <|> backtracks or not |
| 15:31:41 | <janus> | so that is the 'underspecification' applied to parsers? |
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| 15:32:45 | <maerwald> | sometimes it may be better to roll your own combinators |
| 15:33:12 | <janus> | right, that is the argument "I believe some other people think that these Semigroup/Monoid instances should not be added (to avoid potentially confusing errors)" mentioned by Gabriella |
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| 15:34:19 | <timCF> | I'm having a difficult time trying to give a name for this function.. `Integral b => (a -> b) -> Ratio a -> Ratio b` |
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| 15:37:37 | <janus> | merijn: i gather you mention that Alternative and Monoid do not correspond because you think that situation is all right, rigght? it is a demonstration that when choosing whether the Semigroup should match Monoid or Alternative, better choose Monoid. correct? |
| 15:38:03 | <[exa]> | timCF: ratioMap ? |
| 15:39:11 | <timCF> | [exa]: thanks) Or `fromRatio` maybe |
| 15:39:35 | <[exa]> | fromX sound a bit like auto-conversions always, this is not autoconversion |
| 15:40:10 | <[exa]> | (like, I'd expect fromRatio to also produce floats) |
| 15:42:11 | <janus> | i wonder if this whole discussion is very different in purescript since they have so much more granular type classes :P but that is off-topic for here :P |
| 15:42:58 | <merijn> | janus: The thing is, there are many valid (as in lawful) Alternatives/Monoids for most types |
| 15:43:35 | <merijn> | janus: Specifically, "Monoid a => Monoid (f a)" says something about 'f a' values |
| 15:43:50 | <merijn> | Whereas "instance Alternative f" says something about type 'f' |
| 15:44:39 | <merijn> | Alternative and Monoid have the same laws, but they are statements/properties of different things and so the only reason why they are sometimes the same as coincidence flowing from the fact that the laws are the same |
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| 15:45:50 | <merijn> | Note that With "instance (Applicative f, Monoid a) => Monoid (f a) where mempty = pure mempty" we need the Monoid on 'a' to have a "default" value to lift via pure |
| 15:45:57 | <merijn> | :t empty |
| 15:45:58 | <lambdabot> | Alternative f => f a |
| 15:46:18 | <merijn> | Whereas alternative says "I can create an empty, regardless of whether 'a' has some kinda monoidal operation" |
| 15:46:27 | <merijn> | (i.e. something like Nothing) |
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| 15:47:43 | <janus> | right, so just the fact that they have the same laws but different names rub people the wrong way if they take the 'lawless classes are bad' religion to its extreme |
| 15:48:30 | <janus> | but how does that interact with having smaller type classes, which i think phadej shows wouldn't make sense? the smaller type classes do not change the amount of laws, right? |
| 15:48:57 | <merijn> | I didn't see phadej's comment about that? |
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| 15:50:35 | <janus> | if you scroll down on the last 'chrislpenner' link that i posted, it shows e.g. this tweet "That paves a road to adding [...] CommotativeMonoid" https://twitter.com/phadej/status/1440004818098065410 |
| 15:50:57 | <janus> | *Commutative |
| 15:52:11 | <merijn> | It's not that they make sense, but adding infinitely many tiny classes makes it a pain in the ass to define custom datatypes since you need to define 50 billion instances |
| 15:52:39 | <merijn> | So there is a cost-benefit relation to "have useful is a class" vs "the hassle of making everyone implement it" |
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| 15:53:03 | <merijn> | purescript certainly moves into the direction of "more finegrained classes", but I'm not sure that's necessarily better for users |
| 15:53:14 | <merijn> | More classes to learn, more classes to implement |
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| 15:56:18 | <janus> | yeah, i need to just write more purescript to find out, i guess (heathen!). not intuitively clear to me how e.g. "Apply for Maps" is useful like chrislpenner mentions |
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| 16:34:37 | <sshine> | I think that if many more classes were the better option, those alternative mathy preludes would've prevailed more. |
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| 17:19:46 | <ryantrinkle> | does anyone know how to get cabal to produce a plan.json file? |
| 17:20:03 | <sclv> | i think it always does with v2 build?? |
| 17:20:46 | <sclv> | https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/nix-local-build.html#caching |
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| 17:22:00 | <ryantrinkle> | nvm looks like --dry-run does it |
| 17:22:05 | <ryantrinkle> | thanks :) |
| 17:24:13 | <[exa]> | any users of llvm-hs-pure? is there any good way to construct complicated phi nodes without totally abusing `mdo`? Problem: I need to construct a `phi` instruction in the beginning of a block, but the Operand I need gets only created by the last instruction. |
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| 17:33:12 | <[exa]> | hm this might be IRBuilder specific |
| 17:35:58 | <c_wraith> | that's... not abusing mdo |
| 17:36:06 | <c_wraith> | that's what it exists to do |
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| 17:45:16 | <[exa]> | so something like |
| 17:45:48 | <[exa]> | metadata <- traverse (buildBlockWithMetadata metadata) blockDescriptions |
| 17:45:56 | <[exa]> | ... should just work™ within a mdo ? |
| 17:46:59 | <c_wraith> | depending on strictness, yes |
| 17:47:01 | <davean> | Thats the point |
| 17:47:12 | <davean> | But yes, strictness |
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| 17:48:20 | <[exa]> | it's mostly for phi nodes so the result will mainly contain the autoincrement values of some variable counters |
| 17:48:44 | <[exa]> | and they won't be really needed until much later the thing gets chewed by LLVM |
| 17:48:52 | <[exa]> | so I guess this is safe? |
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| 20:23:38 | <unit73e> | hello. my pet project of porting of lazyfoo SDL2 is on-going. lesson 21 done: https://gitlab.com/unit73e/lazyfoo-examples |
| 20:24:09 | <unit73e> | unfortunately it seems like haskell SDL2 doesn't support force feedback so I skipped that one, for now |
| 20:24:26 | <unit73e> | I do have a dualshock 4 so I can contribute to that later |
| 20:25:55 | <shapr> | unit73e: neato! |
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| 21:44:01 | <maerwald> | is there an optparse trick to make a distinction between `foo bar baz -- --flag1 --flag2`? Afais, bar, baz and --flag1 --flag2 would have to be of the same parser if bar and baz are |
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| 21:52:14 | <hpc> | wouldn't those just be positional arguments? |
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| 21:55:14 | <maerwald> | bar and baz is some/many |
| 21:55:22 | <maerwald> | so it will expand to the others |
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| 23:09:15 | <hololeap> | hoistCofree :: Functor f => (forall x. f x -> g x) -> Cofree f a -> Cofree g a |
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| 23:09:31 | <hololeap> | why does this use RankNTypes instead of |
| 23:09:42 | <hololeap> | Functor f => (f a -> g b) -> Cofree f a -> Cofree g b |
| 23:10:29 | <hololeap> | hm, that's not quite right, but there is a more general way to write this without the forall |
| 23:10:40 | <c_wraith> | to prove that it can't branch based on the values in the nodes |
| 23:12:24 | <hololeap> | ok, I think that makes sense |
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| 23:35:41 | <monochrom> | It also expresses a natural transformation. |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-09-26.