Logs on 2021-09-27 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:17:25	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	my eyes are crossing as i try to learn more about programming languages
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00:25:40	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i feel bombarded by an endless collection of abstractions and constraints which, if i want my code to work or be effective, it must take into account
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00:32:11	<Cale>	In cases like that, get something working first, then work out which abstractions to apply.
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01:17:42	<sm>	absolutely. Add abstractions and constraints when your code requires you to
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03:52:58	<Guest1654>	Whats good any one on here
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04:30:34	Axman6	Sadly, there was, in fact, no one on here
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05:21:59	<zangi>	does cabal test normally takes an argument? I've seen a package from hackage that its test takes an argument, i.e. `main = do [control_port, test_port] <- getArgs` which will fail if I run `cabal test`
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05:26:10	<Axman6>	I can't remember ever seeing that
05:27:00	<Axman6>	though many test frameworks do provide a function you can assign main to and they will often support some kind of configuration - perhaps try cabal test --help and see if there's something about test arguments
05:27:15	<Axman6>	I know stack has a way, and I would be extremely surprised of cabal doesn't
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05:28:57	<zangi>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/serialport-0.5.2/src/tests/Tests.hs
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05:35:08	<sclv>	zangi: see `cabal test help` and it'll show you the flags (which includes --test-options)
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05:39:01	<zangi>	isn't `cabal build` run the test by default?
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05:41:17	<sclv>	nope! you have to ask it to
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05:42:25	<Axman6>	the other way around is true, cabal test will build too
05:42:25	<zangi>	oh shoot, I was confusing it with Nix package manager which enables the test by default
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09:39:45	<dminuoso>	Does warp not come with something to parse HostPreference?
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09:41:09	<dminuoso>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/streaming-commons-0.2.2.1/docs/src/Data.Streaming.Network.Internal.html#line-66
09:41:11	<dminuoso>	Zzzz
09:41:32	<dminuoso>	So essentially there's no tools that can validate a host preference, I just have to stuff it into `run` and watch it blow up
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11:15:29	<asgas>	What should I be using for haskell package installing? Stack? Cabal? This is all new and confusing to me.
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11:20:21	<maerwald>	cabal
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11:22:35	<asgas>	Why cabal? I've read cabal hell is a thing.
11:22:50	<arahael>	cabal's improved over the years, it used to be far clunkier.
11:24:35	<merijn>	"cabal hell" as a real thing stopped existing over a decade ago
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11:24:41	<arahael>	As for the package version things, the only thing stack helps there is they curate their package sets; but if you end up neeidng to go outside that set you're back where you started anyway.
11:24:53	<maerwald>	asgas: cabal is the standard
11:25:12	<asgas>	Alrighty then. I'll use cabal. What's the difference between a v1-install and v2-install?
11:25:14	<maerwald>	and currently has more active development
11:25:15	<merijn>	95% of the people using the term "cabal hell" these days don't even know what "cabal hell" referred to and really just mean "I'm using outdated and bitrotted dependencies and now stuff don't work"
11:25:35	<merijn>	asgas: Just use "install" (i.e. v2-install in all versions you should consider using)
11:25:42	<arahael>	merijn: Also, "I'm using libraries that honestly shouldn't have ever been released".
11:25:43	<dibblego>	haha, 95% is generous
11:25:47	<maerwald>	merijn: I have projects that are 6-7 years old and I can still make them build with cabal
11:26:01	<merijn>	asgas: v1- vs v2- is backwards compat stuff
11:26:35	<merijn>	asgas: in cabal-install 3.0 install started working differently, but we're at 3.6 by now and you really shouldn't be using anything older than 3.0, so pretend v1- doesn't exist
11:27:02	<merijn>	dibblego: I know, probably closer to 99.9% of complainants don't know what actual cabal hell is >.>
11:27:12	<merijn>	dibblego: I like to hedge on the conservative side
11:27:21	<merijn>	maerwald: I'm not saying you can't build old stuff
11:27:43	<merijn>	maerwald: Just saying it's weird people use libraries that had 1 release a decade ago, then blame "cabal hell" when their code refuses to build
11:27:58	<asgas>	Is finding haskell developers difficult? Because haskell looks very cool compared to C or C++.
11:28:14	<maerwald>	asgas: good haskell developers or any?
11:28:16	<arahael>	asgas: You've found a few here easily enough? ;)
11:29:06	<dminuoso>	asgas: cabal hell is a thing from the "v1" past. "v2" is what addressed it, and it has become the default in recent cabal versions. So if you type `cabal build`, it will automatically use the v2-build command behind the scenes.
11:29:35	<Cajun>	cabal hell is just a specialized use of dependency hell right?
11:29:39	<dminuoso>	Relatedly, `cabal install` is no longer a thing for libraries, it's only useful for binaries.
11:29:40	<merijn>	dminuoso: Not even v1-hell
11:29:42	<merijn>	Cajun: No
11:29:48	<merijn>	Cajun: That's just the silly modern usage
11:30:05	<jneira[m]>	well to be honest still there are some cabal bugs which could corrupt the global store, but they are marginal imo
11:30:09	<maerwald>	stack has dependency hell too btw
11:30:13	<dminuoso>	asgas: so the regular flow for dependencies is to just declare them in your cabal file, and everything else happens automatically via `cabal run` and `cabal build`. :)
11:30:25	<jneira[m]>	but it is not the cabal hell from 2000
11:30:30	<merijn>	Cajun: Actual cabal hell, from back in the day is when cabal would (silently) upgrade an installed package when installing something new. Which silently broke every installed package depending on the old version in an old recoverable way
11:30:49	<Cajun>	that sounds.. infuriating :P
11:30:57	<maerwald>	sandboxes fixed that
11:31:00	<merijn>	Cajun: The only way out of a sea of broken packages and obscure errors was nuking everything
11:31:09	<merijn>	Cajun: But that's not been an issue for close to a decade
11:31:20	<merijn>	Cajun: It was, hence the term "hell"
11:31:26	<jneira[m]>	(and cabal install -lib could cause cabal hell via ghc env files)
11:31:50	<merijn>	"my dependencies aren't compatible" is often labelled "cabal hell" these days, but that's weird, 'cos wtf is cabal supposed to do about that?
11:32:04	<merijn>	"don't use incompatible dependencies, then"
11:32:05	<maerwald>	merijn: throw away its solver
11:32:07	<maerwald>	lol
11:32:41	<maerwald>	a "curated package set" is really just a statement "I'm too lazy to think about what versions to use"
11:32:42	<merijn>	maerwald: Fuck it, let's throw away dependencies on just have everything depend on master and do versioning explicitly in the module names, like go >.>
11:32:59	<maerwald>	I've been there
11:33:15	<maerwald>	and I think the only ecosystem that does it right is ... C
11:33:32	<maerwald>	if you mess up your API, create a new package or get lost :p
11:34:11	<arahael>	merijn: Hang on, that sounds like Nix!
11:34:15	<jneira[m]>	dont try to be smart to make users be smart or die :-D
11:34:19	<maerwald>	PVP and semver is too much maintenance overhead for most people and it encourages not caring about API breakage
11:36:22	<maerwald>	also... the ability to change behavior of a function without even changing its types... is horrible. And that's one of the major selling points of PVP
11:36:44	<merijn>	maerwald: There's only one thing that gets people caring about API breakage
11:36:50	<maerwald>	it assumes people read changelogs and have good test coverage
11:36:55	<maerwald>	2 assumptions that are mostly wrong
11:36:58	<merijn>	getting paid
11:37:29	<maerwald>	merijn: oh, like cardano?
11:37:52	<maerwald>	they get paid and their API is a constantly moving monstrosity :)
11:37:53	<merijn>	maerwald: Getting paid is a necessary, not sufficient condition for caring about breakage :p
11:38:01	<merijn>	maerwald: Don't know, don't care, tbh
11:38:08	<merijn>	I know cardano exists and that's all I know
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11:38:29	<maerwald>	well, getting paid is clearly not enough, yeah
11:38:41	<maerwald>	caring about API takes effort
11:39:08	<maerwald>	you're basically making using your library less expensive for others
11:39:16	<merijn>	People wanna rely on stable open source APIs, but most people build thing for themselves so they don't give a fuck about you
11:39:36	<merijn>	maerwald: You make that sound like a feature :p
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11:39:50	<maerwald>	but if others want to use your api real bad, you don't need to care
11:40:03	<maerwald>	like base breaking every other year
11:40:12	<maerwald>	you can hardly opt out
11:41:35	<arahael>	What's PVP again? :(
11:41:51	<maerwald>	it's like PVE, except you're fighting version bounds, LOL
11:42:06	<arahael>	:facepalm:.
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11:42:57	<merijn>	arahael: Package Versioning Policy
11:42:59	<merijn>	@where pvp
11:42:59	<lambdabot>	https://pvp.haskell.org/
11:43:10	<arahael>	merijn: Thanks. :)
11:44:04	<maerwald>	add to your bashrc: alias cabal_build='cabal build --allow-newer'
11:44:06	<maerwald>	:p
11:44:11	<jneira[m]>	https://cabal.fandom.com/wiki/Player_versus_player
11:45:31	<Franciman>	Can I ask about the happy parser generator here? Or is it considered offtopic?
11:45:39	<dminuoso>	Ask.
11:45:46	<Franciman>	basically I wanted to know if there is a way to get happy to tell me what the conflicts it found are
11:45:51	<Franciman>	it just says there are 60 conflicts
11:46:05	<Franciman>	so I want to ask it: can you please tell me where? ^^
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11:48:48	<Franciman>	oh! Found out, I can ask that by telling it to put grammar info in a file
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11:49:00	<Franciman>	I couldn't believe I would say this but, damn, bison is so advanced
11:49:13	<Franciman>	it shows the grammar problems WITH COLORS
11:49:15	<Franciman>	lol
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11:50:17	<Franciman>	I can also ask it to produce counterexamples, displaying what the conflicts are
11:51:14	<asgas>	Would you say haskell is a difficult language to learn?
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11:51:50	<earthy>	asgas: yes, I would. but that has a bit to do with functional programming in general being not easy to learn for everyone.
11:52:08	<merijn>	asgas: Yes, but disagree with earthy's claim :p
11:52:09	<earthy>	(to some people it comes more easily than to others)
11:52:12	<arahael>	Also note: most devs seem to forget the difficulty they had with learning their first langauge.
11:52:45	<arahael>	I used qbasic for like, a year, not learning about functions. But when it comes to learning languages these days, I try to learn every single advanced feature the language has.
11:52:57	<merijn>	asgas: Programming is hard to learn. Learning Haskell is a lot like learning to program again from scratch (a feeling many experienced programmers have forgotten and/or surpressed)
11:53:00	<arahael>	(So I set a higher barrier)
11:53:29	<asgas>	I didn't know that purescript was made in haskell. I'm surprised. Same thing with shellcheck (A bash and other shell static analyzer for those who don't know what shellcheck is)
11:53:29	<merijn>	asgas: I know several people who learned Haskell as their first language and they didn't really struggle more than the people I saw learning python/JS as a first language
11:53:36	<arahael>	Haskell is also a gateway drug to trying to apply new and crazy stuff.
11:54:11	<merijn>	asgas: Learning Haskell as someone who already knows one (or more) mainstream languages will feel much harder than learning any other mainstream language, though
11:54:13	kuribas	is using idris for that now.
11:55:07	<kuribas>	maybe idris is a better learning language than haskell.
11:55:22	<arahael>	I think I made haskell harder for myself because when I was teaching myself haskell, I tried to learn how to do lens from scratch and all those excercises.
11:55:25	<kuribas>	type level programming is more elegant in idris.
11:55:40	<kuribas>	but haskell is more suitable for practical programs.
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11:56:55	<dminuoso>	Personally I believe that learning Haskell has a good chance at making you a better programmer even in your old imperative/mainstream language.
11:57:22	<dminuoso>	For me it changed how I thought about programming in a lot of ways, which itself is enough reason.
11:57:50	<kuribas>	dminuoso: and it will spoil that language, because you no longer can tolerate badly written programs.
11:58:04	<asgas>	You think I should install xmonad, the wm for X11, to learn haskell better?
11:58:12	<arahael>	asgas: No.
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11:58:17	<kuribas>	asgas: no
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11:58:36	<arahael>	asgas: If xmonad is exposing haskell like that, then it's badly written. :)
11:58:51	<asgas>	xmonad is written in haskell and the config file is a haskell file.
11:59:08	<dminuoso>	Xmonad doesnt really teach haskell well enough
11:59:21	<dminuoso>	In part because large parts are just copy/paste, there's little actual programming/problem solving
11:59:37	<dminuoso>	And parts of it are not very idiomatic, due to the way xmonad is designed.
11:59:42	<kuribas>	asgas: I'd recommend "write yourself a scheme"
12:00:26	<asgas>	Would learning scheme/lisp make haskell easier to read?
12:00:46	<dminuoso>	Probably not.
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12:01:03	<arahael>	scheme and lisp approach functional programming from very different directions, imho.
12:01:07	<dminuoso>	The closest thing that, I guess, could help is perhaps ML type of languages.
12:01:10	<dminuoso>	Say SML
12:01:35	<kuribas>	asgas: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_Hours
12:02:04	<kuribas>	asgas: no, but IMO SICP is one of the best texts about computing.
12:02:09	<kuribas>	and it uses scheme.
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12:04:43	<asgas>	So other than WIASI48, what other books do you recommend to learn haskell better?
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12:07:09	<arahael>	I liked "Real World Haskell", but that's a very dated book now. I could not learn from "Teach yourself a haskell" with their stupid deliberately broken english, though.
12:07:29	<arahael>	"Learn you a haskell for great good!", I mean. <-- Awful english.
12:07:56	<merijn>	arahael: That was on purpose
12:08:16	<arahael>	merijn: I know, and that makes it worse.
12:08:18	<merijn>	arahael: It was styled after "Why's poignant guide to ruby"
12:08:29	<arahael>	merijn: Except Why_ actually did it well.
12:10:01	<arahael>	merijn: And not once did LYAH refer to chunky bacon.
12:10:15	<dminuoso>	asgas: CIS194 is a great resource.
12:10:32	<dminuoso>	(Both versions, the one from Brent and the one from Breitner)
12:10:48	<kuribas>	CIS194 is great because it starts from the beginning, but doesn't feel like dumbing things down.
12:10:49	<dminuoso>	*Brent Yorgey and Joachim Breitner
12:10:56	<kuribas>	Or coming up with weird analogies.
12:11:03	<arahael>	merijn: Granted, I'm probably not a typical reader, since I didn't learn it from hearing it. :)
12:11:21	<arahael>	kuribas: Like Buritos? :)
12:11:26	<opqdonut>	asgas: not a book, but consider https://haskell.mooc.fi/, it has pretty good exercises (beating my own drum here :)
12:11:29	<kuribas>	arahael: yeah, or the box analogy.
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12:11:38	<kuribas>	A functor is a box, a monad is a box, etc...
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12:11:50	<kuribas>	That doesn't actually say anything.
12:11:51	<arahael>	kuribas: Luckily, we have unboxed types in haskell!
12:12:07	<kuribas>	yeah
12:12:11	<dminuoso>	opqdonut: Are you a professor in Helsinki?
12:12:32	<dminuoso>	Or where does this come from?
12:12:37	<kuribas>	"everything is a box" is only good if you're a cat.
12:12:48	<opqdonut>	dminuoso: yeah, helsinki. I'm not a professor but I'm affiliated with the university
12:13:01	<dminuoso>	I see. Guest lecturer?
12:13:20	<dminuoso>	Just trying to figure out how this excercise and you fit into all of this.
12:13:43	<opqdonut>	yeah, I've lectured on various FP things a bit, and I took some time recently to package things up into a nice self-study course
12:13:58	<opqdonut>	kind of a pro bono thing
12:14:03	<opqdonut>	I work as a consultant mostly
12:14:24	<arahael>	opqdonut: The english there is good and proper, I like it, and it's easy to read. :)
12:14:38	<opqdonut>	thanks, that's nice to hear
12:15:49	<maerwald>	is there a way with `cabal install` to ignore the cache for local packages?
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12:18:46	<merijn>	maerwald: To force a recompile even if no changes?
12:19:01	<merijn>	Or what?
12:20:39	<maerwald>	to force a recompile if there are changes
12:20:51	<maerwald>	install will not recompile if PVP version matches but there are changes
12:20:58	<maerwald>	which is the case for local packages
12:22:02	<maerwald>	and breaks the use case of cloning a repo and running `cabal install`
12:22:13	<maerwald>	unless they bump pvp for every commit
12:23:15	<jneira[m]>	there should be a cabal issue for this..
12:23:54	<merijn>	There is a generic "bikesheding "recompilation avoidance"-avoidance"
12:24:51	<maerwald>	wonder what --one-shot does
12:25:06	<maerwald>	probably legacy of v1
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12:25:15	<maerwald>	--help in cabal is useless
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12:38:49	<maerwald>	is there a way to find the locations of built libraries in a cabal project?
12:39:34	<merijn>	maerwald: cabal-plan?
12:39:50	<maerwald>	how
12:40:44	<merijn>	hmm, maybe that only does executables
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12:46:52	<Franciman>	ok, I don't understand what is happening. I get an internal happy error
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12:47:16	<Franciman>	https://bpa.st/OHFQ this is the grammar
12:47:58	<Franciman>	basically, at startup, it calls the function notHappyAtAll
12:48:01	<Franciman>	but what the legit heck?^
12:48:50	<Franciman>	I can pass the generated parser any argument
12:48:54	<Franciman>	it always calls notHappyAtAll
12:48:57	<Franciman>	but what the heck?
12:49:20	<Franciman>	I suppose I did something wrong
12:49:22	<Franciman>	let's see
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15:09:51	<timCF>	Hello! Is there any way do extract somehow phantom kind parameter as a Text in runtime to use it in Show instance? For example, let say `data Foo = Bar \| Buz` and `data Hello (a :: Foo) = Hello` and then I want to implement `instance Show (Hello a)` such that result of `show` function would be "Bar" or "Buz".
15:11:03	<byorgey>	timCF: if it is truly a phantom type parameter, then there is no way to recover it at runtime. However you can do it if you add a Typeable constraint.
15:11:21	<geekosaur>	that sounds like abuse of Show instances. and if it's phantom then it doesn't exist at runtime
15:11:29	<ldlework>	byorgey: neat project, swarm
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15:11:41	<byorgey>	ldlework: thanks!
15:12:08	<timCF>	geekosaur: Show it's just an example, I need pahntom parameer name in runtime for logging purposes
15:12:41	<geekosaur>	then you need something like Typeable as byorgey saidm so there's something that persists past the typechecker
15:13:09	<timCF>	byorgey: geekosaur: I'll take a look what Typeable class is doing) Thanks!
15:13:16	<geekosaur>	because phantoms vanis after the typechecker is done with them
15:14:55	<Franciman>	I thought haskell's ecosystem could not get worse than cabal
15:14:57	<Franciman>	it gets worse
15:15:00	<Franciman>	with happy
15:15:02	<Franciman>	:D
15:15:16	<geekosaur>	all it's doing is attaching a typeclass dictionary that persists to runtime
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15:15:51	<geekosaur>	which contains enough information to reconstruct the type, including the phantoms that would otherwise go away
15:16:30	<timCF>	geekosaur: probably I do need to add some kind of `forall` equivalent for `instance Show (forall a. (Hello a)) where` to refer into phantom parameter inside of the function instance? Not sure about correct syntax
15:16:34	<geekosaur>	of course that means you have to carry that dictionary around everywhere or you'll lose the information you want
15:18:00	<geekosaur>	instance (Typeable a, Show a) => Hello a where ... {- you can use both Show and Typeable methods here -}
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15:18:31	<timCF>	geekosaur: cool, thanks!
15:18:52	<geekosaur>	you can't declare a Typeable instance, the compiler makes that automatically, but you still have to cite it wherever it's needed
15:18:53	<ldlework>	byorgey: I hope to play it some day once I better figure out how to use haskell stuff on Nix :P
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15:20:13	<timCF>	geekosaur: never used Typeable before, but from what you are saying it feels like it's handled similar to Coerciable - you don't derive it, but it's just there
15:20:19	<geekosaur>	right
15:20:41	<geekosaur>	it's both generated and used by the typechecker, but is also available at runtime
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16:23:16	<sneedsfeed>	how does the community feel about leaving unmatched patterns? I have code here that I'm really happy with. Its only 28 lines long and it should solve any maze you throw at it very efficiently. But it has a LOT of unmatched patterns that in theory should never matter and I'm stuck wondering if I should fill all these in, just leave them unmatched,
16:23:17	<sneedsfeed>	or take this as a sign that my code isnt as good as I thought it was and to start thinking about different approaches
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16:24:26	<hpc>	like non-exhaustive patterns, or unreachable code?
16:24:28	<hpc>	> head []
16:24:30	<lambdabot>	*Exception: Prelude.head: empty list
16:24:36	<sneedsfeed>	here it is by the way https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ywqQSxfk
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16:25:14	<sneedsfeed>	non exhaustive
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16:25:59	<hpc>	ah, addUnsearched is non-exhaustive here
16:26:18	<sneedsfeed>	yea
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16:27:46	<hpc>	you might try renaming it to addUnsearched'
16:27:54	<hpc>	and then defining a new addUnsearched which doesn't take that parameter
16:28:17	<hpc>	except then hmm, you do call it in two different ways
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16:29:42	<hpc>	another idea some modules use is your non-exhaustive function would be something internal
16:29:52	<hpc>	and then if your code was a module, maybe it would only expose isSolvable
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16:30:08	<hpc>	that way users of the code can't shoot themselves in the foot
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16:30:55	<sneedsfeed>	ah yea that makes sense, If I was going to package this up for others to use I dont think I would expose addUnsearched
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16:30:58	<hpc>	or just leave it there and document the flaw, if all of those end up being impossible in some way
16:31:24	<sneedsfeed>	or yea if I have to expose it to the outside I could fill in all the cases
16:31:46	<hpc>	the containers package has some functions that only work if you give them a sorted list as input, but it's too useful to not have those available
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16:33:08	<sneedsfeed>	filling in all the cases wouldnt really help because its not clear how this function would apply to all of them...
16:33:15	<sneedsfeed>	an error would just be better
16:33:54	<sneedsfeed>	okay thanks for all that info. i feel better just leaving it this way now.
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16:49:37	<dminuoso>	sneedsfeed: By the way, your usage of list with random access is very unidiomatic.
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16:56:29	<sneedsfeed>	dminuoso sorry I don't know what you mean.
16:57:02	<sneedsfeed>	i used list like a stack here
16:57:15	<sneedsfeed>	dont think I ever randomly accessed part of it
16:57:26	<dminuoso>	sneedsfeed: You're doing random access on your [String]
16:57:27	<Franciman>	does haskell have a guide for idiomatic writing?
16:57:33	<Franciman>	that's new
16:58:01	<sneedsfeed>	line 14?
16:58:21	<dminuoso>	sneedsfeed: and on line 21.
16:58:38	<dminuoso>	Also `length m` is an O(n) operation.
16:58:49	<dminuoso>	Haskell lists are singly linked lists without any meta data.
16:58:55	<sneedsfeed>	its a challenge problem for codewars, they give me the maze as a string
16:59:05	<dminuoso>	Ah I see.
16:59:17	<dminuoso>	Does codewars let you use `vector`?
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16:59:44	<sneedsfeed>	I could probably convert the string maze into a vector then work on that
16:59:48	<monochrom>	I disagree with unconditionally picking on "xs !! i" without first asking "how big is i?"
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17:00:27	<monochrom>	But I also disagree with "the problem spec gives me a sequence so I will only use sequence structures ever"
17:01:20	<monochrom>	I once gave a data structure assignment in which the input is a Java list of edges for a graph.
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17:02:07	<monochrom>	Part of the student's job was to recognize "OK first thing I do should be converting that to adjacency lists format because the rest is BFS"
17:02:18	<Franciman>	lol
17:02:21	<Franciman>	java assignments
17:02:23	<Franciman>	be like
17:02:26	<Franciman>	I need to learn OOP first
17:02:56	<monochrom>	Clearly some students reasoned "the prof gave me a list of edges so I'll stick to a list of edges" and caused BFS to take quadratic time.
17:03:07	<dminuoso>	monochrom: You require your students to think for themselves?
17:03:34	<dminuoso>	Or let me rephrase. Do other professors actually not demand this?
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17:03:58	<monochrom>	No. In lecture, I already said that BFS runs fastest when the graph is in adjacency list format. (So, not even matrix format.)
17:04:09	<monochrom>	I require my students to listen.
17:04:35	<Franciman>	lol
17:04:39	<Franciman>	honestly
17:04:45	<Franciman>	that's not an easy thing
17:04:53	<Franciman>	I mean teching requires more than requiring listening
17:05:09	<Franciman>	I struggle a lot with this concept
17:05:14	<Franciman>	because you must also be listened to
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17:05:36	<Franciman>	attention request is something that has become the dictator of our day
17:05:46	<Franciman>	who are you to be one of the attention seekers of XXI century?
17:05:53	<Franciman>	are you instagram?
17:05:56	<Franciman>	are you Lil Nas X ?
17:05:58	<monochrom>	Let me turn that around.
17:06:23	<monochrom>	Learning requires more than listening too.
17:06:33	<monochrom>	But if one fails at even listening, nevermind learning.
17:07:03	<monochrom>	Teaching does not require listening.
17:07:25	<monochrom>	Not my job to decide whether my students want to listen.
17:07:31	<Franciman>	I think this is not hitting the point completely, I don't know at what level you are teaching
17:07:33	<nshepperd>	i predict that some teachers dock points for converting the input to a different datastructure and writing the algorithm on that
17:07:48	<Franciman>	but we must also get a way to talk to students
17:07:56	<monochrom>	My job is to provide the best things to listen to, the best things to do exercises on, etc.
17:07:58	<Franciman>	you can't dispotically require listening from people
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17:08:11	<Franciman>	probably for university this is different
17:08:12	<monochrom>	My job is not to control students.
17:08:22	<Franciman>	most probably
17:08:31	<Franciman>	but for school it is totaly a different subject
17:08:34	<monochrom>	But my job can be, if you don't listen, you're going to get 0 marks.
17:08:34	<Franciman>	and if they don't listen to you
17:08:50	<Franciman>	it's because lower grades of school didn't allow them to understand
17:08:58	<Franciman>	requiring them dispotically to listen to their teacher
17:09:27	<Franciman>	there are many ways of teaching, really
17:09:34	<Franciman>	lectures are probably the most boring
17:09:48	<monochrom>	nshepperd: In my case, the students already know my marking scheme: I will run test cases, I will also time them.
17:09:51	<Franciman>	but esier for the lecturer
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17:10:44	<Franciman>	In my experience I've had many teachers who looked like Babbage's famous: I don't care if you listen to my music
17:10:59	<Franciman>	well I don't care about you either!
17:11:09	<awpr>	then don't enroll in the course
17:12:08	<monochrom>	I care to the extent of "if you take the time to listen to me, I tell you useful information, I try not to waste your time".
17:12:28	<monochrom>	But that's it. If you don't want to listen, I'm not going to care.
17:12:29	<Franciman>	monochrom: please note that I wasn't saying you are a bad teacher!
17:12:49	<monochrom>	The same way I view promoting Haskell.
17:12:53	<Franciman>	so it was not a personal attack
17:13:06	<monochrom>	Not going to preach Haskell if you aren't interested.
17:13:39	<monochrom>	"How do I explain Haskell to my coworkers who aren't interested in Haskell?" My answer: Don't.
17:13:44	<Franciman>	I was just saying that requiring listening because otherwise you don't pass the exam, is not a good way to teach people
17:13:48	<awpr>	I sense a bit of irony in that we're talking about "despotically" forcing people to listen, but the despotism is really in forcing people to learn regardless of whether they want to participate in learning. "don't listen -> you won't learn" is the opposite of despotic
17:14:13	<Franciman>	awpr: actually in western culture we despotically put people in schools
17:14:18	<Franciman>	at least to make them learn to read
17:14:21	<Franciman>	but that's "for good reason"
17:14:24	<awpr>	sure, that's exactly what I'm referring to
17:14:26	<Franciman>	but if you do it too dispotically
17:14:31	<Franciman>	they won't learn
17:14:45	<Franciman>	also as I said I wasn't saying monochrom is not a good teacher lol
17:14:47	<awpr>	at university level, that's no longer the case; students are there because they ostensibly want to be
17:14:58	<Franciman>	I think that's no longer the case, tbh
17:15:10	<Franciman>	university is becoming more for the mass
17:15:33	<monochrom>	In my case, if you don't listen to me, but you think for yourself or listen to some other good sources, you can also come to the same conclusion: convert to adjacency list format first before doing BFS.
17:16:07	<awpr>	was it this channel that recently visited the concept that "teaching" is putting the action backwards, and "learning" should be the central thing, with professors being there to aid the process?
17:16:13	<Franciman>	my geometry professor's case: if you don't listen to me, it's because you are stupid
17:16:19	<Franciman>	-> I can't even understand what he is saying
17:16:32	<Franciman>	then you go to exam
17:16:35	<Franciman>	give a different proof
17:16:38	<Franciman>	and they say: it's wrong
17:16:42	<Franciman>	because it's not their proof
17:16:50	<Franciman>	but it is not wrong, emmy noether wrote it
17:16:54	<Franciman>	and it was accepted 100 years ago
17:17:15	<Franciman>	so if you don't listen to me, maybe there is something going on
17:17:27	<Franciman>	and teaching requires engaging with the student
17:17:29	<Franciman>	not just lecturing
17:18:03	<Franciman>	frontal lectures are more like dorsal lectures
17:18:12	<Franciman>	wit hthe teacher spending 99% of their time writing on the blackboard
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17:18:25	<Franciman>	is a possible model that is more effective possible?
17:18:31	<Franciman>	many teacher don't care at all
17:18:40	<Franciman>	they just want to go their 2 hours trhough, with no trouble
17:18:45	<Franciman>	that makes me extremely nervous
17:18:54	<Franciman>	because I pay them
17:19:10	<awpr>	are you presupposing that everyone involved in education must have the job description "teacher"?
17:19:12	<Franciman>	and they say: if you don't pay attention, it's not my fault
17:19:33	<Franciman>	awpr: i think that's the issue
17:19:41	<awpr>	why shouldn't "lecturer" be a valid role? it's different from a teacher, sure. but should it be banned?
17:19:47	<Franciman>	especially at university, there are people who are great at their research
17:19:50	<Franciman>	and terrible at teaching
17:20:06	<awpr>	should all professors be required to be individual tutors for every student of all their courses?
17:20:09	<Franciman>	for teaching you must be teaching
17:20:19	<Franciman>	not reading the damn book
17:20:31	<Franciman>	and if I don't listen it's my fault
17:21:03	<Franciman>	I reckon that lecturing means literally, reading the book out loud to the class
17:21:08	<int-e>	Well, it is your fault. Lectures, by design, do not accomodate individual engagements.
17:21:08	<Franciman>	but I mean
17:21:17	<Franciman>	eheh int-e indeed
17:21:19	<Franciman>	it's my fault
17:21:34	<Franciman>	it's my fault indeed
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17:22:03	<Franciman>	If I ever become a teacher, I will be a people teacher, not a servant of the ivory tower
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17:22:13	<geekosaur>	keep in mind that a good lecturer does what has been discussed recently on one of the mailing lists: presenting things in different ways to help people understand them. not just reading from the book
17:22:14	<Franciman>	who gets pride in getting as many students away
17:22:25	<Franciman>	as they can
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17:24:17	<Franciman>	you think that it is a single person's issue
17:24:22	<Franciman>	enjoy your view
17:24:30	<Franciman>	enjoy not wanting to also put yourself in the students shoes
17:24:36	<Franciman>	enjoy it, because the system is on your side
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17:24:56	<Franciman>	enjoy taking nearly 0 effort in preparing your lectures, by just reading what's written in the book
17:25:09	<Franciman>	the system is with you
17:25:13	<Franciman>	the ivory tower is safe
17:25:14	<monochrom>	Ugh did any one of us do that?
17:25:32	<geekosaur>	there's some lazy TAs who may do that
17:25:50	<Franciman>	I am full of professors that do like that
17:25:58	<Franciman>	At least 4 that I've disgracefully met
17:26:06	<geekosaur>	the fix is to replace the TA, and there are generally course assessments that let you do that
17:26:27	<Franciman>	so just saying: lecturing do not accomodate individual engagements is cringe
17:26:39	<Franciman>	that's now what we are talking about
17:27:19	<awpr>	where is this tirade against universities coming from, as if you're forced to be involved with it and it's some evil concept of despotic learning? if you want to learn, put in the effort. if your university is doing a poor job of helping you, fire it and find a different one or be self-guided
17:27:41	<geekosaur>	^
17:27:54	<juri_>	universities are good for getting access to professors. classes? feh.
17:28:14	<Franciman>	awpr: that's not against universities
17:28:19	<Franciman>	but against a common conception of teaching
17:28:25	<sneedsfeed>	awpr If only it could be only about the skills and not about the pieces of paper
17:28:27	<juri_>	if you expect the universe to train you for you, you'll be waiting a while.
17:28:33	<monochrom>	I respect that switching universities is easier said than done.
17:29:00	<Franciman>	also that
17:29:14	<hpc>	juri_: it will, the problem is it's a genetic algorithm :D
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17:29:46	<Franciman>	Hegel is famous for writing with the aim of not being understood
17:29:53	<int-e>	Franciman: There are good lecturers and bad lecturers. but if your expectation of a lecture is individual stimulation you're thoroughly misguided. You may need an individual tutor for that.
17:30:01	<Franciman>	because he had to be accessible to just fews
17:30:19	<Franciman>	there is also a french tradition of involuted writings dating back to ... at least derrida
17:30:25	<Franciman>	that makes their writing HIGHLY inaccessible
17:31:12	<Franciman>	int-e: I totally understand that, I just say that I've met many teacher who I was not _THE ONLY ONE_ to have problems with
17:31:13	<monochrom>	Are you describing med school?
17:31:17	<Franciman>	and they were well respected
17:31:40	<monochrom>	I understand that prescriptions are supposed to be unreadable. >:)
17:31:41	<Franciman>	and even in charge of things, so assessments didn't change anything
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17:35:03	<sclv>	offtopic, but hegel absolutely wanted to be understood
17:36:03	<sclv>	and for a span of time, lots of people did understand him! its distance from certain traditions of argument and the particulars of debates in that time that now makes it seem so inpenetrable
17:37:53	<Franciman>	sclv: he wanted to be understood by people nearby him
17:37:59	<Franciman>	his writing is highly convoluted
17:38:22	<Franciman>	and on purpose, because it was a common conception that only the skilled ones had to access the writings
17:38:29	<Franciman>	otherwise they had little importance
17:38:58	<sclv>	i think its pretty straightforward, if you take your time with it
17:39:09	<sclv>	and to the extent it isn't, it was absolutely _not_ because he desired to be esoteric
17:39:15	<Franciman>	proof?
17:39:18	<sclv>	there are scholars who you could say sought to be abtruce
17:39:19	<sclv>	abtruse
17:39:20	<Franciman>	I had read it in a book
17:39:26	<shiraeeshi[m]>	imagine if people decided to just have fun while learning something, no need for marks, grades, etc. Who needs grades anyway?
17:39:34	<sclv>	i read the opposite in two books.
17:39:37	<monochrom>	Like this? https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/language >:)
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17:39:45	<Franciman>	sclv: name of the books?
17:39:51	<shiraeeshi[m]>	grades are what makes the process too beurocratized, mechanical
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17:39:58	<Franciman>	ah you are making fun of me
17:39:59	<Franciman>	I see :<
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17:40:17	<Franciman>	that's a bit unfair but I understand
17:40:32	<Franciman>	my book is my high school philosophy book
17:40:57	<Franciman>	it's called `Ricerca del pensiero` by Abbagnano and Fornero
17:40:59	<sclv>	i mean i've read a number of books about philosophy of the period, as well as a number of philosophers of the period directly, and i've never seen this claim made by anyone familiar with that body of work
17:41:41	<sclv>	i've only seen it by people relatively unfamiliar with it and seeking to dismiss it, and i've seen it made about _almost every single writer_ that anyone has ever disliked
17:41:48	<monochrom>	shiraeeshi[m]: When I was a student, I decided to just have fun and ignore marks.
17:41:59	<Franciman>	sclv: have you ever read Derrida?
17:42:03	<sclv>	i've also seen it made about programming languages, about plt, about physics, about everything
17:42:08	<sclv>	yes, i've read derrida
17:42:14	<Franciman>	do you find it easy prose?
17:42:24	<Franciman>	I read derrida first hand
17:42:24	<sclv>	not always, no. hegel is much easier.
17:42:29	<monochrom>	During exam study periods, I studied everything outside the scope of the exam, or played games.
17:42:32	<Franciman>	I understood 0 words
17:42:35	<Franciman>	I am not saying it does not make sense
17:42:39	<Franciman>	but it is very convoluted
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17:43:03	<monochrom>	or rather, I got it backwards. Everything I studed was outside the scope of the exam.
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17:43:13	<Franciman>	now why did he write like that?
17:43:22	<sclv>	certain people like lacan, adorno, iirc you can actually find in print or interviews saying "yes i'm trying to not say things directly, because i'm prompting the reader to engage sidewise with things that i can't articulate directly"
17:43:26	<sclv>	also, joyce
17:43:34	<sclv>	you will _not_ find this said by hegel
17:43:45	<Franciman>	I had read it was a common attitude
17:43:49	<Franciman>	wait I think
17:43:54	<Franciman>	I see the problem
17:43:56	<sclv>	and you will find none of these people ever said "i'm writing like this because i don't want certain people to understand me"
17:44:14	<Franciman>	He is writing (actually was) in a AULIC way
17:44:21	<Franciman>	to give prestige to the writing
17:44:32	<Franciman>	so not to directly block learner
17:44:34	<Franciman>	I see
17:44:34	<shiraeeshi[m]>	monochrom: that's what I'm talking about. Our civilization has one bug: it tries to make an instrument out of everything. So it tries to make a university an instrument of achieving some goal: filtering people, creating professionals who are going to work and become instruments themselves. But if you go too far into making instruments out of everything, you are going to spoil everything.
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17:44:54	<sclv>	again i just don't think this is true of hegel. its far offtopic so i won't keep going. but something like the "shorter logic" is not at all as you describe
17:45:10	<Franciman>	I see
17:45:20	<Franciman>	well I never read hegel first hand
17:45:26	<Franciman>	so your two books are more than my single book
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17:46:16	<Franciman>	shiraeeshi[m]: unfortunately I think you are right
17:46:56	<Franciman>	another highly controversial writer is nietzhsce
17:46:58	<Franciman>	nietzsche
17:47:08	<Franciman>	he purposefully writes in an obscure manner
17:47:31	<Franciman>	I think
17:47:34	<Franciman>	I never read this
17:47:45	<Franciman>	but oh if he is good at writing
17:48:11	<sclv>	i'm sorry i engaged on this, we're way offtopic for this channel
17:48:30	<Franciman>	do you prefer talking about the awful status of cabal's documentation?
17:48:33	<Franciman>	or happy?
17:48:40	<sclv>	PRs welcome.
17:48:44	<Franciman>	yeah I know
17:48:47	<sclv>	(there are a number on cabal underway)
17:48:54	<Franciman>	if only I could understand what the heck happens insdie that monster
17:49:01	<sclv>	i've never made significant use of happy so i can't help you there
17:49:03	<Franciman>	I would happly write a PR
17:49:04	<monochrom>	Well I suppose if you turn this into critiquing Haskell for being intentionally inaccessible it's all good. >:)
17:49:12	<Franciman>	lol
17:49:12	<sclv>	aaaaack
17:49:16	<Franciman>	I did
17:49:26	<Franciman>	I was not serious
17:49:29	<Franciman>	just turned tables around :D
17:49:31	<dminuoso>	Honestly, cabal is not that badly documented.
17:49:33	<Franciman>	btw I am realy sorry for cabal
17:49:40	<Franciman>	I can never find things
17:49:51	<Franciman>	I keep on hitting the Issues on github, it's a better documentation than the actual documentation
17:49:53	<Franciman>	tbh
17:49:53	<dminuoso>	Your experience differs from mine, then.
17:49:55	<Franciman>	for me
17:50:00	<monochrom>	You can start with my analysis at http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/prerequisite.xhtml and argue that this is proof that Haskell is inaccessible.
17:50:23	<Franciman>	I think haskell is becoming too corporate
17:50:25	<Franciman>	not inaccessible
17:50:27	<Franciman>	btw
17:50:38	<monochrom>	PHP does not make you do equational reasoning. Haskell does. Haskell is more inaccessible than PHP.
17:51:21	<monochrom>	And this: http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/IO.xhtml
17:51:22	<sclv>	php does not let you do any reasoning
17:51:29	<Franciman>	I think it is hearsaying
17:51:31	<dminuoso>	monochrom: Is that really so? Usually imperative language has just as much equational reasoning, except it's a bit harder to see that it's required of you.
17:51:32	<Franciman>	it's php5
17:51:35	<Franciman>	php8 got much better
17:52:28	<monochrom>	PHP does not force you to distinguish "a program that reads a number from stdin, and today the number happens to be 4" from "a program that always gives you 4". Haskell does. Haskell is making it more difficult.
17:52:30	<Franciman>	haskell's ecosystem is terrible mostly because corps don't put money in those
17:52:44	<Franciman>	and the majority of people doing the ecosystem just work for corps
17:52:47	<Franciman>	so there are a few tools
17:52:50	<Franciman>	doing great job
17:52:54	<Franciman>	the rest largely undocumentend
17:52:58	<Franciman>	and or unmantained
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17:55:43	<monochrom>	dminuoso: If both your point and my point are edited a bit, we can come to an agreement, and it is the truth.
17:56:12	<Franciman>	do you have any resource on learning and understanding how haskell programs actually get executed?
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17:56:20	<Franciman>	in order to get a better understanding of how to optimize things
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17:56:33	<monochrom>	One can do either equational reasoning or operational reasoning ("use a debugger to step through execution") to both kinds of languages.
17:57:07	<monochrom>	But equational reasoning is easier for Haskell, operational reasoning is easier for imperative languages.
17:57:14	<Franciman>	euqational reasoning is a nice abstraction, but how does it work when you try to squeeze out the proformances of your program?
17:57:34	<tomsmeding>	Franciman: the other day I stumbled upon this https://github.com/quchen/stgi#readme
17:57:46	<monochrom>	So suppose someone chooses to stick to operational reasoning, unconditionally, because they flunked algebra and are proud of it.
17:57:58	<Franciman>	thanks a lot tomsmeding
17:57:58	<monochrom>	Haskell is going to be visibly harder.
17:58:36	<tomsmeding>	Franciman: (see also the last section of the readme)
17:58:54	<Franciman>	oh I read that eval/apply is faster yeah
17:58:57	<Franciman>	damn
17:59:03	<monochrom>	Franciman, I view equational reasoning as very helpful, almost necessary, for squeezing out performance correctly.
17:59:10	<Franciman>	how so?
17:59:16	<Franciman>	ty tomsmeding
17:59:21	<monochrom>	Yes, you need operational reasoning to show that the faster version is faster.
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17:59:30	<Franciman>	no you don't
17:59:33	<Franciman>	you just run the program
17:59:35	<Franciman>	to test things
17:59:43	<monochrom>	But you need equational reasoning to show that the faster version is giving the same answer as the slower version.
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18:00:00	<Franciman>	how do you recognize what is happening with equational reasoning alone?
18:00:07	<Franciman>	how do you understand where you need to optimize
18:00:09	<Franciman>	and how
18:00:11	<Franciman>	and why
18:00:19	<Franciman>	I just see denontation in the equational reasoning
18:00:20	<monochrom>	I thought I already addressed that.
18:00:29	<monochrom>	<monochrom> Yes, you need operational reasoning to show that the faster version is faster.
18:00:39	<Franciman>	I am not talking about showing things
18:00:45	<Franciman>	I talk about understand what is happening
18:00:55	<Franciman>	which comes before proving things
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18:00:57	<monochrom>	To me, proof = understanding.
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18:01:05	<Franciman>	proof is the result of the understanding
18:01:09	<tomsmeding>	a mathematical proof is making someone understand the truth of the statement being proven
18:01:15	<tomsmeding>	this holds across mathematics
18:01:24	<Franciman>	the process of understanding is harder than the written proof, imho
18:01:32	<tomsmeding>	for a proof in a proof assistant, that someone is the verification kernel
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18:01:38	<tomsmeding>	for general math proofs, that is the reviewer of the paper
18:01:46	<monochrom>	No, seriously, there are a lot of things that people say "here is the intuition:" and it's all BS to me, and then "here is the proof:" and then I understand.
18:02:00	<tomsmeding>	for understanding that your program does the same thing after modifying it, that someone is yourself
18:02:15	<Franciman>	I mean you get your proofs all together?
18:02:18	<Franciman>	without tweaking around?
18:02:25	<Franciman>	that's notable
18:02:41	<tomsmeding>	and also notable about this idea: proof for person A != a proof for person B
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18:03:19	<tomsmeding>	which is why an intuitive argument might suffice for you but not for some picky person that reads your paper :p
18:03:26	<monochrom>	Yeah if I see more different proofs I understand more.
18:03:37	<monochrom>	If I see one proof I only understand one angle.
18:03:46	<Franciman>	but the act you are describing is not syntethic, it is analytical
18:03:50	<Franciman>	you read proofs to understand
18:03:54	<Franciman>	but how do you produce your proof?
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18:04:08	<sclv>	there's actually a lot of work on equational reasomning for program efficiency. i suggest in particular hutton's stuff on "improvement theory" a lot of which is joint work with hackett: http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/bib.html#metrics
18:04:11	<monochrom>	I'm OK with relaxing to "proof sketch" if you want a more warm-fuzzy meaning of "understanding".
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18:04:46	<shapr>	ooh that's neat, haven't heard of improvement theory
18:05:04	<monochrom>	I produce my proof by a mix of experience and blind guessing?
18:05:12	<sclv>	i think the worker/wrapper paper was particularly accessible iirc
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18:05:22	<Franciman>	read it
18:05:26	<Franciman>	it was for me
18:05:37	<monochrom>	Meaning that if eventually my attempt at a proof doesn't work out, it means my "understanding" is wrong?
18:05:43	<monochrom>	Which sounds about right?
18:05:52	<monochrom>	How do you know that you understand?
18:05:59	<Franciman>	you feel it
18:06:02	<Franciman>	if you don't feel it
18:06:11	<Franciman>	you didn't understand the feeling
18:06:13	<Franciman>	maybe
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18:06:32	<tomsmeding>	plenty students feel that they understand the material when the teacher presents it to them, but then they get stuck trying to apply it :p
18:06:38	<monochrom>	My experience with myself and my student is Dunning-Kruger.
18:06:39	<tomsmeding>	that feeling is not always right
18:06:47	<monochrom>	If you feel that you understand, you're wrong.
18:06:53	<monochrom>	Always wrong.
18:07:14	<dminuoso>	I understand what you're saying.
18:07:22	<dminuoso>	/s
18:07:27	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: meaning that you can only understand something if you don't feel like you understand it?
18:07:32	<tomsmeding>	that sounds fishy
18:07:35	<Franciman>	lol that's yeah
18:07:37	<Franciman>	to say the least
18:07:42	<Franciman>	that works for great bodies of work, though
18:07:55	<Franciman>	like Feinmann's "you don't understand quantum mechanics if you say you do"
18:07:58	<Franciman>	Feynmann
18:08:01	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: Perhaps there is a missing emphasis on feel
18:08:25	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: in my message or monochrom's?
18:08:31	<Franciman>	having the hubris of saying you understand everything that's been told on a subject just because you had a course at university is Dunning-Kruger
18:08:40	<Franciman>	saying you understand the proof that 1+1=2
18:08:45	<Franciman>	maybe is ok?
18:09:01	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: his
18:09:12	<monochrom>	To be fair if you mean the Russell-Whitehall proof, I don't understand that one.
18:09:20	<Franciman>	no
18:09:36	tomsmeding	guesses peano arithmetic, or perhaps the axioms of \R
18:09:47	<Franciman>	I mean the definition of + encoded in the lambda calculus
18:09:51	<Franciman>	through ecclesiastic encoding
18:10:44	<monochrom>	Then I say that I understand one proof, one angle.
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18:11:16	<monochrom>	Or rather, I have seen one proof, so I understand one angle.
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18:13:20	<Hecate>	meow
18:13:21	<monochrom>	And back to "how do I even know how to modify my code to increase speed".
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18:13:47	<monochrom>	We know a lot of equations for that.
18:14:01	<monochrom>	That is one way equational reasoning helps.
18:15:24	<tomsmeding>	though there are also some potential optimisations of Haskell code that aren't easily captured in equations, perhaps because they depend on assumptions / domain knowledge about what the rest of the program is doing
18:15:58	<tomsmeding>	for example, adding a ! somewhere that technically modifies semantics of the function in question, so ghc can't just do it, but you know that the program at large isn't affected
18:16:08	<monochrom>	In that case I understand that we generalize to "conditional equational reasoning"..
18:16:08	<tomsmeding>	but it may (or may not) increase performance
18:16:36	<tomsmeding>	or switching to a different algorithm entirely :)
18:16:50	<tomsmeding>	instead of implementing bubble sort, you're probably better off using Data.List.sort
18:17:10	<sclv>	one way to pose this is "if you can't show that this code is the same as that code, you certainly can't say 'this code is the same, but faster'"
18:17:28	<tomsmeding>	or stuff like array-of-structs to struct-of-arrays (is that even a transformation that does much useful in haskell? perhaps if you're using vectors)
18:17:38	<tomsmeding>	sclv++
18:18:30	<monochrom>	array-of-structs to struct-of-arrays is a fairly simple equational reasoning.
18:18:47	<tomsmeding>	with potentially far-reaching implications in many functions!
18:19:03	<tomsmeding>	I wouldn't call that "simple equational reasoning" tbh; but perhaps that depends on how you're representing the program
18:19:32	<tomsmeding>	(also "simple" is subjective anyway, so I can't speak for you)
18:22:24	<monochrom>	It is as simple as this: Suppose you have a program that accesses a matrix by "M[foo][bar]". One day you decide to store the transpose of that matrix instead. Then you program just needs "M[foo][bar]" systematically replaced by "M[bar][foo]".
18:23:00	<tomsmeding>	and what if the program contained "thing = M[foo] :: StructType" ?
18:23:05	<shiraeeshi[m]>	monochrom: "When I was a student, I decided to just have fun and ignore marks."
18:23:05	<shiraeeshi[m]>	monochrom: "or rather, I got it backwards. Everything I studed was outside the scope of the exam."
18:23:08	<tomsmeding>	(in a let-binding or whatever)
18:23:11	<shiraeeshi[m]>	what marks did you get?
18:23:32	<monochrom>	OK yes, that one is way harder. Sometimes you even consider it doable.
18:23:43	<monochrom>	A+
18:24:01	<monochrom>	err, Sometimes you don't even consider it doable.
18:24:10	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: no-one said that it was impossible :) I'm just not sure I'd call it "simple equational reasoning" in general.
18:24:11	<tomsmeding>	right
18:24:57	<monochrom>	OK I mean that it's simple if you only have "M[foo][bar]" to worry about, no "M[foo]" or "M[bar]".
18:25:38	<tomsmeding>	true
18:25:56	<hpc>	or in C, foo[M]
18:25:57	<hpc>	:D
18:26:08	<monochrom>	ugh hahaha
18:26:18	<tomsmeding>	*(foo + M)
18:26:34	<tomsmeding>	*(offsetof(M, foo) + M) or what was that syntax
18:26:56	<Rembane>	C, or how to turn multidimensional arrays into brain melting arithmetic.
18:27:26	<tomsmeding>	multidimensional arrays in C are quite fine, until you have to allocate them on the heap
18:27:56	<tomsmeding>	I know that there is some incantation involving some obscure cast and malloc() that happens to work, but I remember only that it was weird enough that I just flatten my arrays in practice
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19:01:10	<juri_>	o/~ that's me in the corner.. thats me writing haskell, breaking my type system.. trying make it total too.. but i don't know if i should do it.. oh no i've changed too much.. o/~
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19:02:31	<monochrom>	Ah, sunk cost policy :)
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19:07:40	<tzh>	okay, so i'm working on some forms/ui code, and i have a situation where each kind of form element has different internal state (a list of checkboxes stores the index of each checked item, a text field stores the text typed, etc). i'd like to be able to extract that type variable in some way so i can have various functions that operate more-or-less identically on each form type, save for they have a different internal state value. what
19:07:40	<tzh>	would be a good way to handle this?
19:09:23	<tomsmeding>	tzh: what kind of operation would you want to do on all such form elements, for example?
19:10:13	<tomsmeding>	assuming your situation is that you have lots of 'FormElement a' values for different values of 'a'
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19:12:19	<tzh>	tomsmeding: render them, for one. they're all hooked into a whole event cycle thing, and currently i'm doing a GADT hack where i have a constructor `App :: Form (x -> a) -> Form x -> Form a` that gets combined during the rendering & event processing steps, but there's not really a way to remove the state types in the same way if i want to have them available when i actually need to alter their values
19:13:48	<tomsmeding>	tzh: you can hide a type variable using an existential type, like 'data Some f where MkSome :: f a -> Some f', but then you can't get 'a' out anymore -- except if you can re-discover 'a' by pattern matching on the 'f a'
19:14:46	<tomsmeding>	but if you can't do that re-discovery, you'll have to have a source of truth that has the fully typed values somewhere, and hide the type variables somehow when you pass it to a function that needs to treat stuff uniformly
19:15:17	<tomsmeding>	random thought that probably doesn't help but maybe: data HList f list where HCons :: f a -> HList f list -> HList f (a ': list) ; HNil :: HList f '[]
19:15:19	<tzh>	right. in that case i can later on extract the 'x -> a' function and apply the 'x' to it coherently to get a valid 'a' value, it's just that definitely doesn't work for the state values (which don't even exist in the types at that point; they're only in the values)
19:16:24	<tomsmeding>	I think this kind of depends on how you appliation is setup :p
19:16:32	<tomsmeding>	*application
19:16:33	<tzh>	yeah
19:16:56	<tzh>	i was thinking something to do with type families but i've never used them before and i don't actually know if that would help in any way
19:17:14	<monochrom>	Yeah you have to completely list all functions you want to be identical over your types (or values, it is not yet clear which is better).
19:17:16	<tomsmeding>	type families are just functions on the type level
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19:17:59	<monochrom>	The reason is that every act of generalization also comes with sacrifices. Or less dramatically, omissions. You consciously forget differences.
19:18:11	<tomsmeding>	like you can define that 'f 42 = True', you can define that 'F (Maybe Bool) = [Int]'
19:18:31	<monochrom>	A complete list of functions is a way to say "I ignore all other functions".
19:19:59	<monochrom>	Suppose I have the Integer type and the Polymonial type. I go "doesn't it stand to reason that the same GCD algorithm works for both?"
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19:20:53	<monochrom>	Yes, but it means I recognize that the commonality is they both have some kind of +, -, *, div, mod.
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19:21:35	<monochrom>	That's my way of saying that "I ignore any other difference between Integer and Polynomial".
19:22:17	<tomsmeding>	and, importantly: you'll have to implement +, -, *, div, mod separately for those two data types
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19:46:50	<janus>	when did stack switch from getting build plans from fpco/lts-haskell to commericalhaskell/stackage-snapshots?
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19:48:01	<Franciman>	man1
19:48:07	<Franciman>	ops sorry
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19:54:55	<alzgh>	hello, I was wondering if there is a way to format GHCi output? Like for the `:info` and `:doc` commands, possibly also `:type` maybe?
19:55:38	<alzgh>	For instance, using the already available formatting character that are used on the web.
19:55:50	<alzgh>	@characters
19:55:50	<lambdabot>	Unknown command, try @list
19:56:04	<alzgh>	*characters, sorry
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20:00:52	<monochrom>	I think no.
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20:03:09	<janus>	how can i work around stack not having a solver? cabal builds and i want to take that plan and shove it into package.yaml and build with the nightly snapshot
20:03:53	<sclv>	cabal gen-bounds will spit out the calculated cabal bounds for the build
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20:05:39	<alzgh>	monochrom: If I wanted to add a feature like that, what are my options?
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20:11:32	<geekosaur>	ghci is a thinn wrapper around the ghc api, it's relatively easy to hack on
20:13:06	<geekosaur>	sadly you have to build all of ghc to do it currently, unless someone has been keeping ghci-ng up to date (but it looks like the last change was in 2015)
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20:21:13	<janus>	it doesn't seem like 'cabal gen-bounds' discovers my private dependencies from cabal.project. how can i made it do that?
20:21:39	<dminuoso>	what is a "private dependency"?
20:21:59	<sclv>	it won’t. those aren’t going to have bounds since they can’t be solved for, they’re fixed “inplace”
20:22:01	<janus>	dminuoso: a dependency that is not on hackage, not on stackage, simply a git repo on my filesystem
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20:22:56	<geekosaur>	right, it can't compute bounds for those because all it knows is the git repo
20:23:17	<janus>	well i don't need the bounds for that one, but what about all the others? it bails because of that private one
20:23:18	<geekosaur>	at its current revision
20:24:06	<geekosaur>	bounds are kinda tied to hackage so you'd need it to be on hackage for the bounds to be meaningful for anyone else
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20:25:04	<janus>	well the bounds wouldn't be related to the private repo! but i'd like to get the bounds for all the public packages. right now i can't do that because i have a private dep
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20:25:59	<janus>	i guess i can just remove it, then the bounds can be calculated. it doesn't matter that it wouldn't compile, the solver runs before compilation anyway
20:28:25	<janus>	though it might mean that the private dependencies' dependencies could conflict as they wouldn't be taken into account...
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20:29:47	<janus>	maybe i should run my own hackage o_O for my secrit deps
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20:31:48	<sclv>	janus: do you mean that cabal like literally dies before generating any bounds because you have git packages in your cabal.project?
20:31:54	<shiraeeshi[m]>	move to golang
20:32:04	<sclv>	oh wait, yeah, we have that ticket https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/7504
20:32:36	<shapr>	shiraeeshi[m]: I tried that
20:32:40	<shiraeeshi[m]>	golang allows to declare local dependencies without having to post them to the repo
20:32:51	<janus>	sclv: yes that is what i meant. thanks for the link! :D very helpful!
20:32:58	<sclv>	so does haskell. this is just about a bug in cabal that keeps gen-bounds from working in such a situation
20:33:33	<Franciman>	why exactly is it useful to have multiprojects, when we have cabal.project file?
20:34:04	<shapr>	what's a multi-project?
20:34:07	<sclv>	two reasons: first, there are often universes of coupled libs and exes it makes sense to build together as a single project
20:34:24	shapr	reads the link embarassed
20:34:29	<Franciman>	there's cabal.project for thet, in't there?
20:34:38	<sclv>	that's literally what a "multiproject" means
20:34:55	<mrianbloom>	Is there an accelerate function that allows you to filter on the outer dimension of an array?
20:34:57	<Franciman>	oh I thought multilple executable /library
20:35:00	<Franciman>	in the same cabal file
20:35:02	<shapr>	yeah, we have half a million lines of Haskell at work like that (excluding blank lines)
20:35:30	<sclv>	multiple exes in the same cabal file make sense sometimes too, if they're all pretty coupled and share a lot of code. shrug
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20:35:41	<Franciman>	again, there is cabal.project for that
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20:36:15	<shapr>	would be interesting to see a compare and contrast post
20:36:45	<janus>	hmm so multi-project is something else than deps from cabal.project? so this bug does not precisely describe my issue?
20:36:50	<mrianbloom>	Basically I have a vector of vectors and I want to exclude vectors that don't meet a predicate.
20:37:03	<sclv>	janus: no its exactly that, and the discussion got confused here
20:37:08	<Franciman>	sorry
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20:38:53	<geekosaur>	possibly dating from a time when cabal.project was new and people were more used to single-target projects
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20:39:13	<Franciman>	that's what causes the cabal's complexity
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20:44:01	<monochrom>	You know, I can't reproduce that bug. My "cd package-a ; cabal gen-bounds" ended with "Congratulations, all your dependencies have upper bounds!"
20:44:47	<monochrom>	To be fair, I did a "cabal update" first.
20:45:35	<monochrom>	<useless informaiton>In my case it was s/15/57/ so I definitely needed a "cabal update", no?</useless information>
20:48:28	<monochrom>	Interesting. If I undo my "cabal update", then "cabal build all" already fails, "Could not resolve dependencies:". (I don't think you want to know the details, but let me know if you do.)
20:48:36	<monochrom>	So, problem vanished?
20:49:22	<monochrom>	err wait sorry, I take that back, I had another moving part, I switched GHC version at the same time. Sorry! I'll retest and report back.
20:49:44	<janus>	'cabal build all' already fails for me because of base bound ^>=4.14.2, but i thought that wasn't part of the test and i should just fix that
20:51:34	<janus>	but if i fix that base bound, indeed it does build without issue on cabal-install 3.6.0.0
20:51:45	<sclv>	nice
20:52:04	<monochrom>	OK how do I undo undo-cabal-update? :)
20:53:15	<monochrom>	More precisely, how to undo "cabal update <an august timestamp here>" so that I go back to today's index? Do I say "cabal update HEAD"?
20:53:43	<janus>	dunno if it is 'nice' because if it isn't broken, it means i havn't understood why my use case is broken :P
20:56:06	<monochrom>	Anyway, <no longer useful report>"cabal build all" already fails with GHC 8.10.4, today's hackage index</no longer useful report>
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20:56:47	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	is there a thoughtful article discussing somewhere what i can't build if i don't have a turing complete programming language
20:57:04	<geekosaur>	GEB?
20:57:43	<sclv>	segfaultfizzbuzz: there's a whole hierarchy of strengths less than turning complete
20:57:58	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	okay, great, is there a nice accounting of this somewhere?
20:57:59	<dolio>	There probably are. But are any actually correct?
20:58:00	<monochrom>	Who the hell coined "multiproject" anyway? This scenerio is one single project that contains multiple packages, not multiple project.
20:58:04	<sclv>	so... its not "what can i build if less than X" its "what can i build with at least Y1, Y2, Y3"
20:58:05	<awpr>	pacman-complete is the most useful one
20:58:29	<monochrom>	And I have had such a project with great success, no issue at all, cabal-install does everything as advertised.
20:58:37	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	what are the Y1 Y2 and Y3 ? is there a nice list of those things somewhere?
20:59:01	<sclv>	the general field is called "recursion theory". i'm looking for a good reference on the sub-turing side
21:00:22	<sclv>	the most common sort of sub-turing language will still allow primitive recursion, so that brings us here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_recursive_function
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21:02:20	<monochrom>	segfaultfizzbuzz: An old paper «on the size of machines» by Manuel Blum shows a slowdown for things too, when the language has restricted recursion.
21:02:38	<monochrom>	Today this is known as "Blum size theorem" or something.
21:02:44	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	slowdown? like, you can't make certain optimizations you're saying?
21:03:02	<monochrom>	I still haven't read the paper, years after someone mentioned it to me. :)
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21:03:33	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	"Blum's speedup theorem shows that for any complexity measure there are computable functions that are not optimal with respect to that measure" -- this kind of mathematical thinking i find to be incredibly boring
21:03:43	<sclv>	there's a weaker class than primitive recursive called "elementary recursive" and then you can get weaker still by e.g. not allowing recursion at all :-)
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21:03:52	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	any time you set up a system of rules there is some kind of exception
21:04:07	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	what is important is whether the exception is non-pathological, frequently encountered, absolutely necessary to account for, etc
21:04:07	<sclv>	also you can sort of bound these classes so you can say like "elementary recursive, but only up to 5" and etc.
21:04:48	<dolio>	Yeah, that's exactly the problem with citing that theorem.
21:05:00	<dolio>	Does anyone care about the algorithms that can't be expressed?
21:05:09	<monochrom>	Well yeah I haven't read Blum's paper or any related paper so I wouldn't assume either it's relevant or it's irrelevant.
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21:06:29	<monochrom>	However, here is what I have figured out so far from a little trying and "I failed, so it looks like can't be done. Sure, I can't be sure, but meh."
21:06:50	<sclv>	all my favorite algorithms can't be expressed. that way i can say "oh i'd tell you my favorite algorithm, but you've never heard of it"
21:07:43	<monochrom>	So suppose you use System F and you use church encoding for natural numbers. "subtract 1" is going to suck.
21:08:25	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	monochrom: i'm so confused why do you need all of this machinery... do you need to handle "arbitrarily" large numbers?
21:08:26	<dolio>	Right, but that's what Mendler encodings are for, and people have made type theories that nicely incorporate those.
21:08:45	<dolio>	Like Cedille.
21:08:46	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	monochrom: can't i just have a few logic gates perform an addition operation?
21:09:06	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	you can do a lot with 64 bit integers, and 128 is pretty good too if you need to go that far,...
21:09:08	<monochrom>	At this point you would be right to critique "but church encoding of numbers is irrelevant". I agree. But I think this one is just the tip of an iceburg, this phenomenon generalizes to all ADTs that matter.
21:09:44	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i am not aware of circumstances outside of cryptography and specialized mathematics research applications where you need something beyond a 64 or 128 bit integer
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21:13:41	<geekosaur>	I have a program that uses them. Granted it's something of an unusual application
21:14:04	<geekosaur>	for a private (currently) project
21:14:36	<dolio>	Also it's important to ask why/in what way you're not Turing complete. Like, if your language is a total type theory, but one of the types is a sort of Turing-equivalent embedded language, and `main` runs something in that embedded language, like Haskell runs an `IO` value, is "the language" Turing-complete, or not? And if not, does it matter?
21:14:56	<geekosaur>	let's just say it generates timelines over a 43-(our-)year period for a bunch of different probably-nonexistent planets
21:14:59	<monochrom>	I am agnostic to "128 bits ought to be enough" vs "people should worry more about overflow and underflow".
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21:15:35	<geekosaur>	including timezones and the like
21:15:48	<dolio>	At that point it's like saying, "ZFC isn't Turing-complete," while all your reasoning about Turing machines is, according to mathematicians, taking place inside ZFC.
21:15:56	<monochrom>	But next time "people should worry more about overflow and underflow" appears on haskell-cafe, is it OK to ping you to go and tell them "I haven't seen a need for more than 128 bits"? >:)
21:15:59	<geekosaur>	mostly it uses CReal but there are a few places it has to "downcast" to Integer
21:16:57	<alzgh>	where's the repository of ghci?
21:17:09	<geekosaur>	ghci is part of ghc
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21:17:19	<alzgh>	Oh, OK
21:17:25	<geekosaur>	so it's on gitlab.haskell.org/ghc
21:17:43	<geekosaur>	there used to be a standalone sandbox for ghci but it's way out of date :(
21:18:54	<geekosaur>	(it was also a proof of concept for splitting ghci from ghc but they decided against because it needs to change every time ghc-api does and keeping separate repos in sync that way sucks)
21:19:15	<monochrom>	dolio: Is that analogous to: there are countable models of ZFC, and yet we use ZFC to prove that uncountability exists?
21:19:26	<alzgh>	I guess compiling ghc is a monster
21:19:26	<dolio>	Hmmm...
21:20:31	<monochrom>	To be fair, cardinality forgets a lot of interesting structures. It may not be a useful measure in the first place.
21:20:48	<dolio>	I think those are kind of different.
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21:22:51	<shiraeeshi[m]>	alzgh: here is a link to info about building ghc: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/building
21:23:12	<alzgh>	shiraeeshi[m]: thanks fren
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21:25:10	<geekosaur>	it's not lightweight
21:25:17	<dolio>	I guess the similarity is this. As long as you can describe a Turing machine to be executed in the total language, and your runtime executes that Turing machine, you are not seriously limited by the theory not recognizing that the Turing machine calculates a total function. And as long as it can describe a set you want, it doesn't matter that it thinks it's uncountable, when in the model you're thinking about, everything is countable.
21:25:19	<geekosaur>	I can't even build it on my laptop
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21:27:03	<dolio>	In the latter case, it just means that 'uncountable' has a more interesting meaning than mathematicians usually think it does.
21:27:54	<alzgh>	https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/team-ghc list of contributors at the end should be updated. It's up to 2018 only
21:28:20	<geekosaur>	that might go to #ghc
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21:29:36	<geekosaur>	oh, you might also want to select a specific branch; I think the general instructions assume you're building HEAD which would get you some ghc 9.3 prerelease
21:29:52	<geekosaur>	whereas you may want to experiment with 9.1 or 8.10.7
21:31:41	<alzgh>	ghc master is 8.10.7, iirc
21:31:46	<alzgh>	or was at least last week
21:31:55	<geekosaur>	in particular I think HEAD has a build issue currently
21:32:56	<alzgh>	I made 2 very small patches to the docs and it took forever for the ci/cd to build and never succeeded
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21:37:55	<monochrom>	This line of thought inspires me to turn the "I haven't seen a need for more than 64 bits" argument around.
21:38:23	<monochrom>	I haven't seen anyone willing to wait for termination if the terminate means waiting for more than 2^64 seconds.
21:38:50	<monochrom>	Does it really help to know that a language is total?
21:39:50	<monochrom>	As opposed to: Just knowing that your algorithm takes at most 2^64 steps for all input sizes below 2^64 bits? Or even just 64 bits?
21:40:35	<monochrom>	Because by this point you shouldn't even care about really arbitrarily large input sizes.
21:41:52	<monochrom>	Hell, in fact, s/willing/able/
21:42:14	<[exa]>	this always reminds me that the computers have limited memory so luckily everything there can be decided to be total or not in finite time. :]
21:42:31	<monochrom>	save for Dorian Gray, vampires, and Guinan. :)
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21:43:10	<[exa]>	2^64 CPU cycles can be done in practice now though, you better bump your integers. :]
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21:45:41	<monochrom>	OK, to be fair, people care about totality for safety, not efficiency. They want to avoid "head []".
21:46:01	<Franciman>	is nowaways Text.ParserCombinators.ReadP from the base package still used?
21:46:05	<Franciman>	or is it legacy?
21:46:22	<sshine>	Franciman, probably mostly for teaching.
21:46:27	<monochrom>	This means that, instead, you should have/make a theory that doesn't lump "instant crash" and "runs forever" into the same thing.
21:46:37	<Franciman>	oh I see
21:48:45	<monochrom>	I don't even think that ReadP was much used or much taught in the past.
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21:49:16	<monochrom>	But it looks like many standard Read instances use it internally.
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21:51:37	<sshine>	we used it at my local university
21:51:52	<sshine>	along with Parse
21:51:53	<sshine>	c
21:51:58	<dolio>	monochrom: There are situations you're not thinking about.
21:52:14	<sshine>	as far as I recall, ReadP was used as a practical example of list monads.
21:52:59	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i mean,... from my persepctive maybe it's worth explicitly labeling functions an non-total and using them sparingly,... but maybe i don't know what i am talking about
21:53:20	<dolio>	You can have an algorithm that is only 'safe' if some proposition is proved. And you could write a proof that takes 2^64 seconds to normalize fully. But you might not need to normalize it to know that it constitutes a witness that the dependent algorithm is safe.
21:54:28	<monochrom>	Hey I'm a fan of that! I keep reminding people "you don't actually run every proof as a program, do you?"
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21:54:42	<sshine>	segfaultfizzbuzz, I have at least one internal fixpoint function that I'm not totally sure is total if fed the wrong things. and then I wrap it so that that doesn't happen. I'm happy I don't have to prove anything. :-D
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21:57:59	<dolio>	It's also true that essentially no type theory is a practical bottleneck for what people do with computers, though, because you can just do induction on some extremely large natural number as part of your can-only-be-done-by-Turing-machines algorithm, and the computer will break before the algorithm stops because it reached 0.
21:58:18	<dolio>	Because Turing machines aren't real.
21:58:39	<sshine>	🤯
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22:03:45	<janus>	alzgh: what do you mean when you say 'ghc master is 8.10.7'? i thought the master would be the most unstable of all, so that should be something after 9.2.0-alpha1?
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22:04:30	<geekosaur>	just because 8.10.7 was most recently released does not nmake it master; in fact they hope they're done with the 8.10 branch
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22:04:56	<alzgh>	janus: I may be wrong, I'm very new. Just had a very small experience with it.
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22:05:10	<geekosaur>	precisely because it's so far behind and they want to work on cutting 9.2.1
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22:33:17	<free_functor>	hello all
22:33:31	<free_functor>	I want to refactor this code a bit: https://github.com/maxsu/vitrea/tree/master/source
22:34:31	<free_functor>	each file has the same 24 lines of LANGUAGE directives, and most files import all of the same standard modules
22:35:51	<geekosaur>	you can put common LANGUAGE pragmas in the cabal file, and make a single file that imports and re-exports the "standard" modules
22:36:17	<geekosaur>	module MyPrelude (module A, module B, ...) where import A; import B; ...
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22:36:39	<free_functor>	the cabal refactoring is very nice!
22:36:45	<monochrom>	I might keep the "redundant" language directives.
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22:37:54	<monochrom>	"refactoring" should not mean "dropping contexts"
22:38:02	<free_functor>	could I cram the language directives into MyPrelude as well?
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22:38:50	<geekosaur>	no, they can't be re-exported
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22:39:55	<monochrom>	Moreover, there is no rule that says each extension must take up its own "{-# language X #-}" line.
22:39:58	<geekosaur>	one warning with making a module like MyPrelude is you can't use qualification any more, because everything would be qualified as MyPrelude.whatever in importing modules
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22:40:46	<monochrom>	"{-# language GADTs, FlexibleContexts, TypeInType #-}" is a thing.
22:41:06	<monochrom>	That readily reduces 24 lines into 8 lines.
22:41:35	<monochrom>	can go further down to 6, even 4, depending on your comfortable screen width.
22:41:58	<monochrom>	I trust that you didn't rotate your monitor to a portrait mode.
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22:45:56	<free_functor>	@geekosaur, here it is! https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-package.html#pkg-field-default-extensions
22:45:56	<lambdabot>	Unknown command, try @list
22:46:50	<free_functor>	if I want to, as monocrome intimates, put all that context into the last place someone will look the first read through of the code, I would shuttle all those lines into the cabal file
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22:47:16	<free_functor>	and I might do just that. Because I am fundamentally an /evil/ functor.
22:48:38	<monochrom>	Sure, ideally, extensions may be better off sitting near the end of a file, not near the beginning.
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22:50:41	<monochrom>	I guess I can soften my position because in practice you just look at a line of code and you can guess which extensions it is using, you don't need reminders.
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22:52:35	<monochrom>	There used to be one single line {-# OPTION -fglasgow-exts #-}.
22:52:55	<free_functor>	Here the sheer consistency and reuse of extensions is somewhat suspicious and seems intentional, such that changing one extension line in one file without changing the corresponding lines in the other files would likely be a bug or at least go against the author's intent
22:53:16	<free_functor>	so ideally I would like to take that shared context and document it in one place... and ideally I would make a passing reference to this at the beggining of each file, so that readers won't forget that we're operating in a special context
22:53:39	<monochrom>	I agree with that.
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23:13:34	<free_functor>	the common extensions were listed in the cabal file under the 'other-extensions' field. After I renamed this to the 'default-extensions' field, I was able to remove all extension declarations from the code
23:14:26	<geekosaur>	yeh, other-extensions is just documentation when you want to keep a record in one place
23:14:38	<geekosaur>	I think it may also be used by hackage for some things
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23:17:07	<free_functor>	I like this solution from the perspective of a maintainer. It documents that the author really does want to use the same extensions for each file, and it controls the extensions from one place.
23:18:54	<free_functor>	but this sucks from a discoverability perspective - to read the code, a new maintainer must first closely read the cabal file.
23:20:58	<geekosaur>	my perspective is you need to read the cabal file to know what the code is anyway (what is what library, executable, etc.) so this is just one more thingt you get first
23:21:23	<free_functor>	I could compromise: In main.hs I can leave a comment that says "for extensions see the default-extensions field of the cabal file." That is a clue for the new reader, without being too anoying to someone that has to see the code.
23:22:52	<free_functor>	geekosaur, I think that might be the more mature perspective, and if we take that perspective then the "clue" comment is extraneous
23:24:40	<free_functor>	https://github.com/maxsu/vitrea/blob/master/source/Categories.hs so much cleaner :3
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23:32:46	<alzgh>	I'm trying to compile ghc. I have setup a Fedora34 container and installed all the required packages as requested. I get this error when I run `.configure`. https://paste.tomsmeding.com/mbxAJtXX
23:32:59	<alzgh>	Can provide further information if needed.
23:33:34	<monochrom>	Perhaps you need the Fedora package that has diff.
23:34:12	<monochrom>	Most container images sacrifice completeness for smaller download size.
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23:36:05	<alzgh>	Ok, thanks monochrom will check that
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All times are in UTC on 2021-09-27.