Logs on 2021-09-30 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:05:39 | <thorongil> | hi there. i'm running ghc 8.10.7 and cabal 3.6.0.0, installed by ghcup 0.1.17.1. when i run "cabal init" and then "cabal install diagrams", it complains that it can't build the executables in package diagrams because it does not contain any executables. any suggestions on how to debug it? the cabal documentation suggests (to me) that this should work. |
| 00:06:20 | <sclv> | thorongil: you're following old v1 instructions |
| 00:06:29 | <sclv> | with v2 build you don't usually install packages to use them |
| 00:06:42 | <sclv> | you just create projects and add them as dependencies and cabal manages them for you |
| 00:07:04 | <monochrom> | "cabal install foo" means executables only. This has been true for a pretty long time. |
| 00:08:01 | <geekosaur> | whereas diagrams is a library with no executables |
| 00:08:07 | <thorongil> | got it, thanks |
| 00:08:15 | <thorongil> | nice to know the documentation is years out of date |
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| 00:09:07 | <awpr> | (which documentation? I wouldn't expect old documentation to be purged from the internet, but I would expect official sources to be up-to-date) |
| 00:10:01 | <thorongil> | this is where i found it: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.6/installing-packages.html#building-and-installing-packages |
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| 00:10:49 | <awpr> | huh. yeah, that looks like the official documentation to me, and it seems misleading at best. |
| 00:11:07 | <sclv> | yeah that section needs rewriting. here's the right section: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.6/nix-local-build-overview.html |
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| 00:11:37 | <awpr> | uh... I completely ignored that section because I assumed it was documenting Nix integration |
| 00:11:39 | <thorongil> | i skimmed the intro sections and it does not make a sufficiently clear distinction between v1 and v2 cabal stuff imo, especially now that the v2 stuff is silently the default. |
| 00:12:08 | <awpr> | like, I saw it in the sidebar and thought "yep, that part is irrelevant to this situation" |
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| 00:14:13 | <awpr> | seems like a significant doc bug to me that the entire current usage of cabal is disguised under a section title that makes it look irrelevant/niche |
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| 00:14:29 | <sclv> | the docs need a lot of work, there's been a bunch of tickets on it and ongoing prs |
| 00:14:34 | <sclv> | haven't been keeping track of the details |
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| 00:15:43 | <monochrom> | "To be written" :) |
| 00:16:23 | <sclv> | i think the docs are mainly updated, skimming through. this is just a stray section that was never fully deleted |
| 00:16:36 | <monochrom> | Right. |
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| 00:17:01 | <sclv> | please open an issue, or better yet a pr :-) https://github.com/haskell/cabal/labels/documentation |
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| 00:17:11 | <monochrom> | Yikes. |
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| 00:17:51 | <sclv> | a lot of the older doc tickets can probably be closed -- nobody's really been grooming em sadly |
| 00:18:19 | <awpr> | looks like https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/6913 |
| 00:18:30 | <sclv> | we've been getting more individual doc contributors lately, but no real "doc czar" |
| 00:18:41 | <awpr> | oh, that's about the `--help` text |
| 00:19:33 | <sclv> | eh, i'll hijack it for this too |
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| 00:23:26 | <geekosaur> | I have to admit I'd been wondering why the old v1 docs still not only hang around but come first, and why v2 is confusingly called "nix-style" |
| 00:24:31 | <thorongil> | my understanding is it's because the v2 style was inspired by NixOS's ability to have multiple library versions installed concurrently |
| 00:24:34 | <boxscape_> | "nix-style" sounds like a reasonable title while v1 was default, to give people an idea of what the alternative is |
| 00:24:55 | <boxscape_> | (the reason it's still named that now, is, presumably, mainly inertia?) |
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| 00:28:23 | <geekosaur> | actually it's worse than that, "nix style would have been fine but "nix local builds" is misleading at best |
| 00:28:26 | <sclv> | people have been trying to clear this stuff up. just needs more contributers |
| 00:28:58 | <awpr> | that's just the URL, right? |
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| 00:29:46 | <awpr> | I guess it's probably the basename of a markdown file somewhere too, though |
| 00:29:46 | <monochrom> | "nix-style local builds" is best/worst of both worlds :) |
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| 00:30:30 | <monochrom> | I think someone manually chose the filenames. |
| 00:30:52 | <monochrom> | Package Concepts and Development -> concepts-and-development |
| 00:31:17 | <monochrom> | Configuration and Installing Packages -> config-and-install |
| 00:31:54 | <monochrom> | Package Description Format Specification History -> file-format-changelog |
| 00:32:11 | <monochrom> | Not even GPT3 is smart enough for that last one :) |
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| 00:33:46 | <monochrom> | cabal-install Commands -> open-the-door-HAL |
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| 00:36:38 | <monochrom> | cabal v2-upgrade -> open-the-door-HAL.html#I-cant-do-that-Dave |
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| 00:41:49 | <sm> | as sclv says, a real doc czar is needed |
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| 01:43:07 | <Axman6> | @hoogle m a -> (a -> m b) -> m a |
| 01:43:09 | <lambdabot> | Language.Fixpoint.Misc (=>>) :: Monad m => m b -> (b -> m a) -> m b |
| 01:43:09 | <lambdabot> | StatusNotifier.Util (>>=/) :: Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m a |
| 01:43:09 | <lambdabot> | Language.Fixpoint.Misc (<<=) :: Monad m => (b -> m a) -> m b -> m b |
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| 03:09:47 | <Axman6> | @hoogle hex |
| 03:09:47 | <lambdabot> | Numeric.Lens hex :: Integral a => Prism' String a |
| 03:09:47 | <lambdabot> | Formatting.Formatters hex :: Integral a => Format r (a -> r) |
| 03:09:47 | <lambdabot> | Formatting.Internal.Raw hex :: Integral a => a -> Builder |
| 03:09:57 | <Axman6> | @hoogle+ |
| 03:09:57 | <lambdabot> | Data.Text.Format hex :: Integral a => a -> Builder |
| 03:09:57 | <lambdabot> | Numeric.Optics hex :: Integral a => Prism' String a |
| 03:09:58 | <lambdabot> | package hex |
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| 04:10:36 | <codygman[m]> | I'm having trouble understanding how to run a Monad Transformer I created to override a typeclass behavior to enable logging my App Monad Transformer. I created a reproduction with a `runNormalQuery` that works fine but don't know how to make `runLoggingQuery` typecheck and work: https://github.com/codygman/smol-monadorville-example/blob/980855a950c5335cf243e2fee7cc83071e8a36fa/Main.hs#L76 |
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| 04:21:57 | free_functor | is now known as cads |
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| 04:49:37 | <Axman6> | codygman[m]: can you share some errors? We're not going to type check your whole project in our heads :) Also seeing Reader.liftIO all over the place seems very off to me, why not import Control.Monad.... (MonadIO(liftIO))? |
| 04:50:46 | <Axman6> | importing everything qualified makes this so hard to read :( |
| 04:51:15 | <dsal> | Especially with words for every qualifier. I looked at this earlier and things kept looking like typos. heh |
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| 05:20:09 | <ChaiTRex> | How do I make this typecheck? data AST t = Terminal (Value t) | Application (Value (s -> t)) (Value s) |
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| 05:22:17 | <ChaiTRex> | Sorry, should be data AST = Terminal (Value t) | Application (AST (s -> t)) (AST s) |
| 05:22:58 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | should AST have a type parameter? |
| 05:23:30 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | it looks like it does in the first definition but not in the second |
| 05:23:47 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | also what is the definition of `Value`? |
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| 05:25:15 | <ChaiTRex> | Oh, sorry, it's AST t = .... |
| 05:25:22 | <cads> | AST = Terminal (Value t) | Application (Value (s -> t)) (Value s) <- this looks plausible |
| 05:25:52 | <cads> | ChaiTRex, do you want AST to have a parameterizing type? |
| 05:26:27 | <ChaiTRex> | Yes, AST t. |
| 05:26:30 | <cads> | what does it mean to have an AST over type s -> t? |
| 05:26:40 | <cads> | its an AST that expresses a function? |
| 05:26:56 | <ChaiTRex> | Yes, the second constructor is for function application. |
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| 05:29:57 | <cads> | so the application constructor takes two ASTified types: one is a function-AST, and the other is a compatible value-ast |
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| 05:30:56 | <cads> | Then AST t = Terminal (Value t) | Forall s. Application (AST (s -> t)) (AST s) |
| 05:31:07 | <codygman[m]> | <Axman6> "codygman: can you share some..." <- Axman6 Thanks for taking a look. I linked to the error? Everything type checks but the typed hole I linked to. I wish I could reduce the repro more but I'm not sure how to. |
| 05:31:07 | <codygman[m]> | After looking at it more I believe I defined `runLoggingOrville :: Orville.OrvilleT c m a` incorrectly here since it's not even a transformer and need it to be `runLoggingOrville :: m a` or concretely `runLoggingOrville :: (App String IO) a`... maybe |
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| 05:31:51 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | does Cabal-the-library as invoked with `runghc Setup.hs` not support Backpack? |
| 05:31:51 | <codygman[m]> | <Axman6> "importing everything qualified..." <- Yeah, at work everyone prefers qualified. It used to ve hard for me to read |
| 05:32:09 | <cads> | ChaiTRex, in order to bind that free 's' in your term, you can wrap it in a universal Forall s.. I think. |
| 05:32:43 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | I'm trying to build https://github.com/kowainik/containers-backpack and it seems to work okay with `cabal build` but not with `runghc Setup.hs configure` (which is what Nix is using) |
| 05:33:10 | <ChaiTRex> | cads: Thanks. |
| 05:33:14 | <cads> | > AST t = Terminal t | Forall s. Application (AST (s -> t)) (AST s) |
| 05:33:15 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:7: error: parse error on input ‘=’ |
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| 05:33:55 | <ChaiTRex> | Hmm, looks like I need a typelevel tree or something to implement Show on it. |
| 05:34:59 | <cads> | ChaiTRex, Terminal can also box your values, but I am not sure if you were already using Value for something important |
| 05:36:31 | <ChaiTRex> | No, I don't necessarily need Value. |
| 05:38:01 | <cads> | well good luck, glad if I helped! sorry I don't actually know how to write it so that lambdabot will confirm it typechecks - I mainly do category theory these days, and all my coding is in python :( |
| 05:38:33 | <cads> | > let AST t = Terminal t | forall s. Application (AST (s -> t)) (AST s) |
| 05:38:34 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:24: error: parse error on input ‘|’ |
| 05:39:21 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | > let data AST t = Terminal t | forall s. Application (AST (s -> t)) (AST s) |
| 05:39:23 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:5: error: parse error on input ‘data’ |
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| 05:39:40 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | > data AST t = Terminal t | forall s. Application (AST (s -> t)) (AST s) |
| 05:39:41 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘data’ |
| 05:39:47 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | wtf |
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| 05:39:57 | ← | trinity parts (~marvin@user/trinity) () |
| 05:40:15 | cads | loves that nerdsniping someone into a brute force lambdabot interrogation session is on topic for this channel <3 |
| 05:41:43 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | clearly my lambdabot-fu is weak |
| 05:42:08 | <cads> | I think that if we took the channel logs we could probably a natural language better parse error explainer that gives more insight than "parse error on input ‘data’" |
| 05:42:20 | <cads> | we could probably train* |
| 05:42:36 | <cads> | err, actually that sentence has multiple transcription errors! |
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| 05:43:20 | <cads> | I'm trying to say that we can improve the compiler error messages by simulating the speech in #haskell QA sessions with AI |
| 05:44:07 | <cads> | I don't think any other langauge has tried to improve their own compiler messages with NLP like this, lol |
| 05:45:25 | <cads> | wait, nvm, I think someone built something that takes a line of bash and explains what it does... so whoever is doing that work is probably thinking about improving explainability of computer errors and bugs |
| 05:45:55 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | % data AST t = Terminal t | forall s. Application (AST (s -> t)) (AST s) |
| 05:45:56 | <yahb> | vaibhavsagar[m]: |
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| 05:46:35 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | progress! |
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| 07:21:49 | <ChaiTRex> | If I have data A a = A a, how do I implement Show A such that if a is Show, show (A a) = "A " ++ show a, and if a isn't Show, show (A a) = "unshowable"? |
| 07:22:18 | <opqdonut> | short answer: you can't |
| 07:23:17 | <opqdonut> | long answer: there are various tricks you can use, e.g. https://github.com/well-typed/recover-rtti |
| 07:23:50 | <c_wraith> | All of the tricks can fail, though, because ghc makes some assumptions that you write correct programs. |
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| 07:25:03 | <c_wraith> | If you have a show instance for a type in a module that isn't in scope where that trick is being used, it'll do the wrong thing. |
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| 07:25:32 | <c_wraith> | because GHC assumes that instances will only matter if they're visible |
| 07:25:39 | <ChaiTRex> | OK, thanks. |
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| 08:31:19 | <sm> | isn't there a safe version of !! in Data.List yet ? |
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| 08:34:09 | <sm> | ansi-terminal-game is great, f-a |
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| 08:35:04 | <dminuoso> | sm: Mmm, no and I dont think there should be. |
| 08:38:02 | <dminuoso> | In my opinion we shouldn't be promoting random access on [] |
| 08:38:09 | <dminuoso> | You can trivially roll it yourself, if need be. |
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| 08:41:03 | <maerwald> | @hoogle atMay |
| 08:41:04 | <lambdabot> | Safe atMay :: [a] -> Int -> Maybe a |
| 08:41:04 | <lambdabot> | Protolude atMay :: [a] -> Int -> Maybe a |
| 08:41:04 | <lambdabot> | Protolude.Safe atMay :: [a] -> Int -> Maybe a |
| 08:41:09 | <maerwald> | @hoogle (!?) |
| 08:41:09 | <lambdabot> | Data.IntMap.Internal (!?) :: IntMap a -> Key -> Maybe a |
| 08:41:09 | <lambdabot> | Data.IntMap.Lazy (!?) :: IntMap a -> Key -> Maybe a |
| 08:41:09 | <lambdabot> | Data.IntMap.Strict (!?) :: IntMap a -> Key -> Maybe a |
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| 08:41:22 | <maerwald> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/extra-1.7.10/docs/Data-List-Extra.html#v:-33--63- |
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| 08:50:57 | <sm> | it is a travesty |
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| 08:52:35 | <sm> | if there was an array or vector type as easy to work with as list, it might be arguable |
| 08:53:24 | <maerwald> | > preview (ix 1) "abc" |
| 08:53:25 | <lambdabot> | Just 'b' |
| 08:53:25 | sm | grumbles and takes another run at arrays and vectors |
| 08:53:28 | <maerwald> | there you go |
| 08:54:15 | <sm> | sure, it's easy to show the solution when you know the vast api.. |
| 08:54:15 | <sm> | but thank you :) |
| 08:54:33 | sm | reconsiders, learning new api is out of scope for this little project |
| 08:54:44 | <maerwald> | please don't look at array if you value your mental health |
| 08:55:14 | <sm> | right.. which I do |
| 08:55:20 | sm | imports trusty Safe |
| 08:55:20 | <maerwald> | vector is ok |
| 08:56:03 | <Hecate> | yes |
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| 09:13:15 | <cads> | hey all, does anyone know of a tool that can help you systematically audit the entirety of a haskell project, keep track what which parts you've read, and then update you when parts change? |
| 09:13:38 | <cads> | or generally for an entire code base |
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| 09:16:35 | <cads> | I have a tendency to wander around in the code at random, kind of clueless about how the system works. But if I read in a certain order, like, say, I read the readme file first, then the cabal file, then skim the libraries |
| 09:17:24 | <cads> | I also have a tendency of encountering stuff I don't understand, and attempting to understand it by /refactoring it/ - this leads to lots of commits I end up reverting when I actually understand the code |
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| 09:18:10 | <cads> | so it would be nice if I can annotate part of the code that seem messy on the first read, skip the premature refactoring, but keep the annotations for later |
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| 09:19:06 | <cads> | .... but of course, if I did this by leaving comments in the code like "refactor this maybe", that in itself would really just suck |
| 09:19:22 | <maerwald> | I'm not even sure how exactly such a tool would work |
| 09:19:47 | <maerwald> | I know a way of monitoring your screen time (and by that, which files you're looking at) |
| 09:20:00 | <maerwald> | then you can have stats about which modules you spent time on |
| 09:20:17 | <maerwald> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/arbtt |
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| 09:20:58 | <cads> | I think I could use existing code review tools to break a code base into small chunks that I then have to review individually and sign off on |
| 09:21:29 | <cads> | and when there are no more reviews to perform I can certify that I've given the entire code base a read through |
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| 09:22:26 | <cads> | maerwald, wow, I could have really used that tracker for another project! |
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| 09:22:55 | cads | was doing tons of cad drawings, and kept forgetting to enable their time tracker |
| 09:23:35 | <cads> | if I could have tracked when my cad application was on screen and active in a customer file, then I could have billed the customer without... guessing! |
| 09:24:15 | <maerwald> | well... just bill them for the day |
| 09:24:43 | <cads> | that's thinking with portals |
| 09:25:11 | <maerwald> | using screen time to bill is odd... it's not like my brain shuts off the second the screen goes idle |
| 09:25:20 | <maerwald> | I wish that was the case |
| 09:25:22 | <maerwald> | but it isn't |
| 09:26:47 | <cads> | @maerwald, do you do much graphic or industrial design? |
| 09:26:47 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 09:26:54 | <cads> | oops |
| 09:27:08 | <maerwald> | graphic? no |
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| 09:28:03 | <dminuoso> | cads: Mmm, so for a comprehensive audit you could simply use code comments. |
| 09:28:44 | <dminuoso> | If you adopt some tag style to quickly search for them (perhaps write a custom editor plugin for that?), you can annotate and navigate fairly quickly. |
| 09:29:13 | <dminuoso> | This helps you attach thoughts to code directly, and you directly keep track of what parts you have dealt with. |
| 09:30:16 | <dminuoso> | Doing this "systematically" is hard to do generally, since this process is largely architecturally driven. |
| 09:30:39 | <dminuoso> | So it all depends on how well a given software project is structured, or whether you have some big pile of spaghetti |
| 09:30:41 | <cads> | deducing the architecture and inferring the reading order is a huge problem I have |
| 09:30:52 | <cads> | since I tend to review code bases as an outsider without any insider help |
| 09:31:21 | <cads> | the reading order can really depend on my objective as well |
| 09:31:30 | <maerwald> | You might want a tool that can parse comments and structure and summarize them |
| 09:31:33 | <dminuoso> | Currently I spend a lot of time reverse engineering rspamd, and it's a huge pile of spaghetti with almost no internal architecture whatsoever. |
| 09:31:46 | <dminuoso> | It's completely disgusting, and all attempts at trying to do this in a structured manner have failed. |
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| 09:32:15 | <maerwald> | like you write TODO somewhere, you want a list of where you wrote TODOs (and when), without doing grep |
| 09:32:20 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: You could actually even use ANN! :) |
| 09:32:48 | <cads> | maerwald, if I had 3 ai wishes I would wish for what you said, plus something that can take a bigger architectural view of the system and explain what certain directories or source files are for |
| 09:33:04 | <cads> | and third one is that really this AI is also a pair programmer that is your friend |
| 09:33:21 | <cads> | the friendship part is 100% key, and should be authentic |
| 09:33:24 | <maerwald> | but you can't drink a beer with an AI |
| 09:33:26 | <dminuoso> | Im not sure we're anywhere near that kind of sophistication in artificial intelligence. |
| 09:33:42 | <dminuoso> | really the problem is, if you have non-trivial software, there better be architectural diagrams |
| 09:33:42 | <cads> | maerwald, alas, I think requirement 3 will not be met for a while |
| 09:33:54 | <cads> | dminuoso, tell that to pythonists |
| 09:34:00 | <earthy> | cads: it's not haskell, but https://www.sourcetrail.com/ might be useful? |
| 09:34:14 | <maerwald> | dminuoso: what would you draw? |
| 09:34:28 | <cads> | earthy, wow! |
| 09:34:54 | <earthy> | (unfortunately recently the maintainers announced their stepping down) |
| 09:34:56 | <cads> | how did you land on that without getting deluged by commercial code review solutions? |
| 09:35:13 | <cads> | asking for myself, lol |
| 09:35:13 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: Hard to say generally, but a simple diagram like https://www.aosabook.org/images/ghc/hscpipe2.png can do wonders when starting on GHC, |
| 09:35:21 | <earthy> | cads: the appropriate set of twitter follows, apparently. :) |
| 09:35:33 | <earthy> | (it was actually on my twitter feed yesterday) |
| 09:35:48 | <cads> | dminuoso, good god of all diagrams. I am blessed on this day |
| 09:35:49 | <cads> | thank you |
| 09:35:58 | <earthy> | cads: another possibility would be to look into feenk.com's moldable development tooling with GToolkit |
| 09:36:38 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: For our SDN compiler we have a similar architectural diagram as well, and a markdown file breaking down how the module structure relates to the architecture. |
| 09:36:39 | <maerwald> | dminuoso: some of those boxes have ~20 years of engineering and PhD thesis behind them :D |
| 09:36:47 | <dminuoso> | It's not rocket science. |
| 09:36:54 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: Sure, but that's not really the point. |
| 09:37:20 | <maerwald> | does Sourcetrail support haskell? |
| 09:37:30 | <earthy> | maerwald: not currently, as I stated. |
| 09:37:31 | <maerwald> | "supporting C, C++, Java and Python" |
| 09:37:33 | <dminuoso> | It's simply that architecture for complex software can be visualized. If you cant, there's a fair chance you might have a pile of spaghetti without any architecturing effort. |
| 09:38:32 | <cads> | dminuoso, I think many projects operate in a capital poor environment, so they don't have the tooling to generate clean, up to date diagrams of their system |
| 09:38:49 | <maerwald> | I try to have my spaghetti be a tree, as if it's stuck at the ceiling. |
| 09:38:53 | <dminuoso> | cads: But anyhow. Personally, Id simply start emacs, run org-mode in one buffer, have HLS/lsp/lsp-ui for easy exploration and navigation and online type signatures, and then start using a structured comment tag (or ANN tag) system |
| 09:38:54 | <cads> | I feel like many OSS maintainers reason that they can diagram their system for the sake of attracting unpaid volunteers that may or may not arrive, or they can release new features. |
| 09:39:37 | <maerwald> | cads: https://github.com/alexwl/haskell-code-explorer |
| 09:39:47 | <dminuoso> | cads: org-mode gives me a very neat way of keeping track of todos, time, and what not, lsp greatly improves navigating, HLS ensures I can interactively explore haskell code, and comments or ANN let me annotate knowledge and thoughs directly on code. |
| 09:39:54 | <maerwald> | might work better than HLS for just reading |
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| 09:41:40 | <earthy> | sourcetrail would probably be great with LSP support. |
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| 09:41:59 | <earthy> | (but I have too much on my plate as it is) |
| 09:42:41 | <cads> | dminuoso, how do you envision keeping track code that has been read vs code that's not been read vs code we're skipping as irrelevant to the review? I feel like tracking that should be somewhat automatic, and it might require data structures apart from comments |
| 09:42:41 | <lortabac> | maerwald: anything works better than something that doesn't work :P |
| 09:43:10 | <sm> | cads, if you're an emacs power user I expect you could add hooks to track which files you visit and maybe even which regions |
| 09:43:21 | <dminuoso> | cads: You can simply annotate code regions quickly with NOTRELEVANT |
| 09:43:23 | <sm> | it does seem like something that must exist |
| 09:43:34 | <dminuoso> | cads: make some bindings to insert these automatically |
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| 09:44:58 | <cads> | dminuoso, one way is it goes through the code inserting a "review tag" every, say, 15 lines. As you read, you write x on the review tag to signify you understood, and ? to signify you are still confused about that section but have moved on. When there are no comment lines without xs, that file is reviewed. |
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| 09:45:34 | <dminuoso> | cads: You could also generate `-- TOOO-REVIEW` comments above *every* top level definition automatically. |
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| 09:45:57 | <dminuoso> | And as you navigate through it, using key binds, you automatically insert more such comments in large portions, or replace/delete them as you make progress |
| 09:46:00 | <cads> | it seems like this could be a really pedantic and really annoying way to sign off on section, but if it gets the review done and over with, okay |
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| 09:50:20 | <cads> | in vscode there is a mode that lets you review changes to the code in a diff view. It splits the changes into a set of hunks, and you can use arrows buttons to go back and forth between hunks, and press a button to either revert the hunk or stage it for the current commit |
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| 09:51:47 | <cads> | I wonder if it is difficult to make a similar extension that will instead let you navigate between the individual review sections, and either highlight them as "skipped" or "reviewed" |
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| 09:59:40 | <cads> | earthy, it looks like sourcetrail was having either code or business sustainability issues around 2019 and decided to open source the code. no community maintainers stepped up and current volunteer effort is not enough to keep their dependencies updated |
| 10:00:01 | <cads> | I love that the open sourced the code though |
| 10:01:47 | <cads> | I will try to use it to review its own code base! |
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| 10:04:12 | <cads> | At least it uses functors! C++ functors, that is! |
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| 12:31:41 | <tabaqui> | Is it possible to place SCC for Arrow syntax? |
| 12:34:58 | <tabaqui> | hm, looks like only after -< |
| 12:35:17 | <tabaqui> | a <- f -< {-# SCC "here" #-} x |
| 12:35:30 | <tabaqui> | not sure if it's useful |
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| 12:37:01 | <geekosaur> | you'd want to look at how arrow syntax expands to see why |
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| 12:50:20 | <tabaqui> | Yeah, I know about all this >>>, first, second. Had hopes that it's simple |
| 12:51:24 | <tabaqui> | *these |
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| 13:05:54 | Lycurgus | remembers when main channel had 2X this many users |
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| 13:26:23 | <Psybur> | Will disk use always be an issue when compiling? I want to build Carp but I only have 2 gb free on my disk >.>; |
| 13:26:54 | <merijn> | Depends on how big a thing you wanna compile :p |
| 13:27:15 | <merijn> | Usually RAM will be the bottleneck, but also 2GB free is...not a lot :p |
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| 13:30:40 | <Psybur> | Heh, I did have to create a swapfile recently to compile Hakyll recently. I have since moved away from it |
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| 13:31:07 | <Psybur> | such recently wow |
| 13:32:48 | <merijn> | Why's your machine so limited? |
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| 13:34:44 | <Lycurgus> | in today's world, for a dev host, having 2GB disk will always be an issue unless c oder |
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| 13:36:02 | <Lycurgus> | but 2G free in an otherwise stable env should mostly work if none of it used for swap or buffer |
| 13:36:48 | <Lycurgus> | maybe rasp pi or somesuch |
| 13:37:02 | <Lycurgus> | linode nano |
| 13:37:54 | <Lycurgus> | not a phone prolly, it would have more |
| 13:37:55 | <merijn> | Lycurgus: Sure, the question is: If your stable environment is so constrained, just...don't compile on it? :) |
| 13:38:17 | <Lycurgus> | right why I used 'dev' |
| 13:39:30 | <merijn> | The biggest damage dynamic languages have wreaked upon a generation of developers is causing them to conflate build and deploy environments and treat every deploy environment as a build environment (see also some of the docker atrocities on the web) |
| 13:40:05 | <Lycurgus> | in which I presume you mean to contrast with static hs |
| 13:40:34 | <merijn> | Or C or C++ |
| 13:40:38 | <merijn> | Even Java to some extent |
| 13:40:47 | <Lycurgus> | i think it was when memory became super cheap |
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| 13:42:19 | <Lycurgus> | well it doesn't happen in lisp because there is essentially is no difference |
| 13:42:56 | <Lycurgus> | this or that thing turned off on an app or implementation basis |
| 13:43:12 | <Lycurgus> | same with smalltalk |
| 13:43:21 | <kuribas> | merijn: what does building and deploying have to do with dynamic/static? |
| 13:44:00 | <Lycurgus> | it's culture dependent |
| 13:44:15 | <Psybur> | im too lazy to go and free up more space on my windoze partition heh. Ive got 4 gb free maybe now itll work :P |
| 13:44:47 | <Lycurgus> | some langs force a tear down of dev stuff for prod dist |
| 13:45:21 | <Psybur> | And i cant find any binaries for carp lisp D; |
| 13:45:27 | <merijn> | kuribas: Most dynamic languages don't have a clear way to separate "build results" from "input source" |
| 13:45:39 | <kuribas> | hmm, right |
| 13:45:42 | <merijn> | kuribas: As a result, most of their environments kinda assume you just distribute both |
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| 13:46:24 | <merijn> | kuribas: In cabal-install the build artifacts are very clearly delineated and you can just copy them to another machine with 0 haskell tools and it will keep working |
| 13:46:44 | <kuribas> | that's why you need docker for python and JS? |
| 13:46:49 | <merijn> | A python codebase will require python on deployment host anyway |
| 13:46:57 | <merijn> | kuribas: In essence, yes |
| 13:47:13 | <kuribas> | well, sort of, because I cannot copy between debian linux and centos. |
| 13:47:17 | <merijn> | If you can't distinguish build output from input it becomes hard to nail down what is required at runtime |
| 13:47:20 | <kuribas> | due to libc differences. |
| 13:47:28 | <merijn> | kuribas: RIght, you need compatible libraries on the host, but other than that |
| 13:47:44 | <merijn> | kuribas: And you can build entirely static executables that only depend on the kernel if you use musl |
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| 13:48:43 | <merijn> | kuribas: Docker's popularity in the Python/JS/Ruby/etc. spheres is basically everyone collectively giving up on defining/figuring out what exactly their runtime dependencies/environment should be and saying "fuck it, we'll just ship development" |
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| 13:50:23 | <merijn> | programmers are lazy, which is a virtue when it comes to writing code. But bad for packaging. For packaging you wanna specify your dependencies and inputs as explicitly as possible, because that makes setting up an environment elsewhere easy. |
| 13:50:31 | <dminuoso> | The story behind docker: https://i.imgur.com/3eTKEZp.jpg |
| 13:51:28 | <merijn> | See also the unending rift between people who want more automatic magic into cabal "because I don't wanna manually specify all this stuff". But you have to explicitly specify what you're talking about while dealing with packaging, you don't wanna embed random shit on your filesystem in your distribution |
| 13:51:36 | <dminuoso> | For over 3 decades, linux folks have managed *just* *fine* with autotool and packaging. Sure, there was some friction here and there, but I can install a postfix on anything from ancient debians to anything that runs today. |
| 13:52:12 | <kuribas> | *just fine* might be a slight exageration. |
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| 13:52:23 | <kuribas> | As in, when autotool works it's fine, misery otherwise. |
| 13:53:17 | <dminuoso> | The real problem is: |
| 13:53:20 | <dminuoso> | 15:47:13 kuribas | well, sort of, because I cannot copy between debian linux and centos. |
| 13:53:24 | <dminuoso> | Why do you even expect this to work reasonably? |
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| 13:53:31 | <kuribas> | Do you put Atribtrary instances in your tests, or besides your data definitions? |
| 13:53:45 | <dminuoso> | That seems to already imply that ELF was a portable way of delivering artifacts, which its not. |
| 13:53:53 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: windows is binary compatible, so is macos. |
| 13:54:03 | <dminuoso> | "binary compatible" is not saying much, really. |
| 13:54:35 | <dminuoso> | It's sort of like "why doesnt this windows binary run on linux? this is just x86 machine code" |
| 13:55:00 | <kuribas> | wine? :-) |
| 13:55:05 | <dminuoso> | "binary compatible" only makes sense when you have absolutely no outside dependencies |
| 13:55:22 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Which is why you static link everything :p |
| 13:55:39 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Im not convinced this is a wise idea anymore. |
| 13:55:46 | <dminuoso> | Most things, yes. |
| 13:55:49 | <dminuoso> | OpenSSL? No. |
| 13:56:31 | <dminuoso> | merijn: and even static linking is not enough. |
| 13:56:45 | <dminuoso> | Suddenly your program wants to open a socket under /run/foo.pid, but /run does not exist on that other distribution. |
| 13:57:05 | <dminuoso> | And it wants to setuid/setgrp under uids that dont exist. Open config files or need a load of system resources. |
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| 13:57:46 | <dminuoso> | Sorry, I meant *open a pid file |
| 13:58:26 | <dminuoso> | I mean yeah, some software can just be handed as some single binary and be a mostly portable ELF. When that works, great. |
| 13:58:55 | <dminuoso> | It's part of why Prometheus is so successful, it's dead simple to populate exporters onto brittle legacy infrastructure without major updates. |
| 13:59:32 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: that's why there is a POSIX standard? |
| 13:59:34 | <merijn> | I blame the linux circlejerk of entirely superficial variations with no meaningful difference |
| 13:59:43 | <kuribas> | merijn: word :) |
| 13:59:46 | <merijn> | Just use FreeBSD |
| 14:00:09 | <merijn> | Or any BSD |
| 14:00:30 | <dminuoso> | merijn: The day that NixOS supports the BSD kernel, you have won me over! |
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| 14:02:29 | <dminuoso> | Even without liking nixos, you have to admit that they at least have *meaningful* differences from "boilerplate distributions" |
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| 14:03:14 | <merijn> | The day Nix can work without you being root or manually building 12 dependencies from source (because it's not statically linked!) I'll think about it for more than 3 seconds |
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| 14:03:49 | <merijn> | dminuoso: As for linking OpenSSL statically, see that's just a feature, forcing you have a good update plan and re-deploy plan that's frequently exercised |
| 14:04:16 | <merijn> | It's a built in deprecator on everything you deploy! |
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| 14:05:11 | <dminuoso> | merijn: I see it as a risk rather. Just because its linked statically, you're not forced to do anything. The opposite, once you have statically linked openssl, you *must* *update* *every* package every time OpenSSL folks screw up basic security hygiene again. |
| 14:05:22 | <dminuoso> | It delays getting updates |
| 14:06:15 | <merijn> | Consider it motivation to not rely on OpenSSL :p |
| 14:07:15 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Like, why can't you use LibreSSL instead? |
| 14:07:41 | <dminuoso> | I knew you were going to say this. |
| 14:08:01 | <merijn> | Of course, I'm predictably consistent :p |
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| 14:08:36 | <dminuoso> | I guess I can. |
| 14:08:48 | <merijn> | I have far more faith in the OpenBSD people than any of the linux devs or OpenSSL devs |
| 14:09:04 | <merijn> | Not just in terms of security, but also general robustness and ease of use |
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| 14:09:30 | <merijn> | Compare pledge(2) to whatever the linux flavour-of-the-month capability framework is |
| 14:10:50 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Absolutely, did you get that memo about that recent OpenSSL 3.0 release that deprecated a huge bunch of functions, except for some of them they simply forgot to mention in the documentation for some of them a) that they are deprecated, or b) what to use instead. |
| 14:11:00 | <dminuoso> | It does make you wonder what they do for a living. |
| 14:12:15 | <merijn> | (Open)BSD vs linux/openssl/etc. is, in my mind, the difference between the mindset of "software *engineer*" and "programmer" |
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| 14:13:20 | <merijn> | "we have a new fine-grained capability system for security!" 'cool...how you can migrate 4 decades worth of tools to it?' |
| 14:13:44 | <merijn> | s/how you can/how are you gonna |
| 14:14:03 | <merijn> | or s/how you can/can you |
| 14:14:12 | <merijn> | I need a rate limiter on my brain-to-typing interface... |
| 14:15:35 | <kuribas> | How do you garantee coverage of all sums in an Arbitrary instance? |
| 14:19:26 | <kuribas> | Such that, if I update the datatype, the test will fail? |
| 14:19:30 | <kuribas> | or fail to compile better. |
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| 14:21:53 | <merijn> | You don't? :p |
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| 14:22:56 | <kuribas> | merijn: you count on the programmer remembering? |
| 14:22:56 | <merijn> | Was it hedgehog that had better support for checking meta-properties like the randomness of generated values? I forget... |
| 14:23:46 | <kuribas> | it is better that nothing I suppose... |
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| 14:24:52 | <kuribas> | I can imagine some hack using Data.Data... |
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| 14:26:32 | <kuribas> | like counting the number of sums... |
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| 14:27:07 | <dsal> | kuribas: generics are helpful. Looking at coverage is also helpful. I like to look at my test coverage periodically. |
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| 14:28:25 | <kuribas> | dsal: maybe generics-eot, my favourite generics library. |
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| 14:29:35 | <dsal> | merijn: your rant reminded me of a recent set of videos showing all these tracing tools in Linux. strace and ftrace and perf and some other junk and how you can combine them to learn some things if you're careful. Combined, they were a tiny subset of what I'd do in production with dtrace |
| 14:30:05 | <dsal> | kuribas: there's a generic arbitrary library I've used. |
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| 14:30:22 | <kuribas> | dsal: I cannot use a generic library. |
| 14:30:29 | <kuribas> | the strings aren't generic. |
| 14:30:33 | <kuribas> | they cannot contain "/" |
| 14:31:29 | <dsal> | The older code liked to do this thing where it added change detectors in every place that used sums (or products) to make sure it stopped compiling if something changed. I did not like this. |
| 14:31:37 | <merijn> | dsal: DTrace is so nice |
| 14:31:54 | <kuribas> | n <- choose (1, length (constructors (datatype (Proxy @SQID)))) |
| 14:31:55 | <merijn> | I don't use it often enough to be good with it. But it's so obviously superior |
| 14:32:08 | <merijn> | dsal: Also, compare Intel VTune to gprof |
| 14:32:12 | <kuribas> | then case n of ... , _ -> error "constructor not handled." |
| 14:32:37 | <kuribas> | dsal: why not? |
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| 14:33:27 | <dsal> | merijn: yeah, back then, Linux excited you to use systemtap, which required a new kernel, a c compiler, and a ton of time and memory to do something they thought was similar. |
| 14:33:29 | <lortabac> | kuribas: maybe you should use a newtype for the strings |
| 14:33:48 | <kuribas> | lortabac: that's polluting the datatype just for tests... |
| 14:33:53 | <merijn> | dsal: My first unix machine was FreeBSD |
| 14:34:01 | <merijn> | dsal: So I was never excited about linux |
| 14:34:01 | <dsal> | kuribas: it was just a lot of noise, and I found a better way every time. |
| 14:34:10 | <dsal> | merijn: yeah, I also downgraded |
| 14:34:18 | <merijn> | A solid 90% of my linux experience has just been annoyance and disappointment |
| 14:34:43 | <merijn> | dsal: And the documentation... |
| 14:34:49 | <merijn> | Now I'm sad again |
| 14:35:40 | <dsal> | kuribas: it's not just for the test, it sounds like a correctness issue. Otherwise, a test can just toss out the bad values. If / isn't valid, but can be supplied, then don't make it a possible value. :) |
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| 14:40:12 | <kuribas> | yeah, I understand, but it's a balance between keeping things simple. |
| 14:40:38 | <kuribas> | I am already splitting it before parsing, so it's an unlikely error. |
| 14:43:36 | <dminuoso> | 16:34:43 merijn | dsal: And the documentation... |
| 14:43:38 | <dminuoso> | Linux has documentation? |
| 14:43:44 | <dminuoso> | I mean yeah, the kernel has some. |
| 14:43:47 | <dminuoso> | :> |
| 14:44:33 | <dsal> | kuribas: simple == there's no way to express something that's wrong. :) |
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| 14:45:06 | <merijn> | dminuoso: That's what I meant |
| 14:45:15 | <kuribas> | dsal: not always. |
| 14:45:17 | <dminuoso> | merijn: I know. |
| 14:45:27 | <merijn> | FreeBSD Handbook is so great |
| 14:45:28 | <kuribas> | dsal: and I'd be programming in idris if I wanted that always. |
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| 14:46:16 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Actually in some sense, my comment implies what the biggest problem behind linux is. |
| 14:46:38 | <merijn> | Actually |
| 14:46:41 | ← | Heffalump parts (~ganesh@urchin.earth.li) () |
| 14:46:42 | <dminuoso> | It's that Linux really is just the kernel. There's a lot of different also called "Linux", but really there's no coherent product. |
| 14:46:45 | <merijn> | The problem with linux isn't the lack of it |
| 14:46:47 | <dminuoso> | Some distributions actually have handbooks and manuals. |
| 14:46:54 | <merijn> | It's that there's too much of it and it's all terrible |
| 14:46:55 | <dminuoso> | Red Hat is on the better side of documentation |
| 14:47:25 | <dminuoso> | In fact, I find myself referring to their resources from time to time, as it's quite comprehensive |
| 14:48:55 | <dminuoso> | Heck, even NixOS is accumulating a relatively decent manual. |
| 14:49:11 | <dminuoso> | But most popular distributions are mysteriously undocumented |
| 14:49:19 | <dminuoso> | It's as if the majority users dont care for documentation? |
| 14:49:29 | <dminuoso> | I dont know |
| 14:49:42 | <dminuoso> | Experience shows that a lot of people dont even know how to use `info` or `man` |
| 14:49:47 | <dminuoso> | Or know of their existence |
| 14:50:04 | <dminuoso> | Which in recent years is probably not much of a loss anyway |
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| 17:03:05 | <a6a45081-2b83> | what could be a reason for Int64 to be 2x slower than Integer? |
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| 18:01:01 | <zincy_> | Should I define a custom monad as an "interpreter" if I have [Op] where data Op = FlipY | FlipX | Shift Int and these operations change a grid (list of lists) |
| 18:01:19 | <zincy_> | Or would I just be redefining the state monad> |
| 18:01:20 | <zincy_> | ? |
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| 18:03:26 | <monochrom> | Yes. Yes. |
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| 18:03:48 | <Hecate> | heyo |
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| 18:04:08 | <zincy_> | monochrom: Thanks |
| 18:05:40 | <Rembane> | Hi Hecate ! |
| 18:05:52 | <monochrom> | Here is why the much beloved pedagocial parser monad String -> [(a, String)] is "just redefining" StateT String []: |
| 18:05:54 | <Rembane> | Hecate: Are you summoned by saying monad twice? |
| 18:06:00 | <monochrom> | @unmtl StateT String [] a |
| 18:06:00 | <lambdabot> | String -> [] (a, String) |
| 18:06:25 | <Hecate> | I can be slightly confused about the various metaprogramming features we have in GHC sometimes, so I was wondering if there was a ± reliable way to get the name of the function I am in? |
| 18:06:31 | <monochrom> | And here is why we still roll our own rather than resuse StateT: |
| 18:06:34 | <Hecate> | Rembane: I am an incrediblt lurker :P |
| 18:06:44 | <monochrom> | The fundamental primitives of StateT are put and get |
| 18:06:54 | <Hecate> | I know that with TH I can get access to the name of the module, and even the location in the source file |
| 18:07:14 | <monochrom> | The fundamental primitives of a parser monad are anyChar and eof. |
| 18:07:34 | <Rembane> | Hecate: Agree ^^ |
| 18:08:05 | <monochrom> | API > type representation |
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| 18:11:57 | <awpr> | `callStack` should provide a path to getting the current function's name. looks like you have to add a `HasCallStack` constraint to that function, though, else it just gives an empty call stack |
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| 18:15:44 | <Hecate> | awpr: yeah it feels like my only option at the moment |
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| 18:41:30 | <dsal> | I added dtrace functionality the erlang interpreter thing a while back and "what function am I in" ends up actually being a kind of hard problem. I got close enough for most of my needs, but functions don't have clean entry and exit points necessarily. |
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| 18:42:49 | <geekosaur> | especially with inlining |
| 18:42:56 | <geekosaur> | and rewriting |
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| 19:12:56 | <dsal> | The tiny detail I ran into in erlang was TCO. Functions could be entered, but never exited. We'd just suddenly like "be" in a different function. In general, the runtime doesn't necessarily match your mental model. If the computer can do an equivalent thing that's significantly more efficient, then that's great unless you want to try to map it back to your mental model. |
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| 21:08:32 | <codygman[m]> | Hi all, hope this question is concise with enough context.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/18685e5ba30dbbd27642515b163160dd645b4701) |
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| 21:09:35 | <codygman[m]> | * instances which instance head is correct: |
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| 22:19:05 | <mestre> | }/exit |
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| 22:42:45 | <adjoint_cads> | Functors! Huh! (Good God!) What are they good for? (Not much!) |
| 22:42:52 | adjoint_cads | *DANCES* |
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| 22:45:38 | <adjoint_cads> | Functors is something I despise! For it means destruction of innocent types. And thousands of lines in Monad's cries. Our sons write functional pearls and give their lives! |
| 22:45:55 | <adjoint_cads> | Functors! Huh! (Good God!) What are they good for? (Not much!) |
| 22:46:23 | ChanServ | sets mode +o monochrom |
| 22:46:28 | monochrom | sets mode +b *!*@ip-64-72-99-234.lasvegas.net |
| 22:46:28 | adjoint_cads | is kicked by monochrom (adjoint_cads) |
| 22:46:35 | monochrom | sets mode -o monochrom |
| 22:47:41 | <Hecate> | :'') |
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| 22:54:28 | <mestre> | :clap: |
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| 22:56:52 | <hpc> | meanwhile in the numeric modules... "all we hear is Ratio Gaga" |
| 22:56:56 | <hpc> | "Ratio Googoo" |
| 22:57:10 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 22:58:51 | <Hecate> | :D |
| 22:58:56 | <Hecate> | Haskell, The Musical |
| 22:59:04 | <Hecate> | after Erlang, The Movie |
| 22:59:32 | <hpc> | coldfusion on ice |
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| 23:33:36 | ChanServ | sets mode +o monochrom |
| 23:33:44 | monochrom | sets mode -b *!*@ip-64-72-99-234.lasvegas.net |
| 23:33:49 | monochrom | sets mode -o monochrom |
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| 23:39:04 | <jackdk> | Axman6: do you have slack or is your DNS still impacted? |
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| 23:44:37 | <alzgh> | hello |
| 23:44:59 | <alzgh> | what channel(s) are best for asking general Fedora questions? |
| 23:45:35 | <alzgh> | like very advanced question, just normal ones about package management and stuff |
| 23:46:29 | <alzgh> | sorry, this is Haskell |
| 23:46:35 | <alzgh> | confused it with libera |
| 23:46:44 | <geekosaur> | there is #fedora |
| 23:46:49 | <geekosaur> | with some 1300 users |
| 23:47:02 | <alzgh> | yeah, I asked there and no one answere |
| 23:47:12 | <alzgh> | they are talking about kernel compiling and stuff |
| 23:47:30 | <alzgh> | I thought maybe the question isn't appropriate for the level of that channel |
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| 23:48:49 | <zzz> | oh no! i was too late to make a Peano joke :( |
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| 23:50:05 | <jackdk> | alzgh: `/msg alis LIST fedora` will show you a bunch of fedora-related channels. The topic for #fedora-devel says "end users: please ask for help in #fedora" so maybe you were in teh right place? |
| 23:50:12 | <jackdk> | alzgh: see https://libera.chat/guides/findingchannels |
| 23:52:58 | <alzgh> | thanks jackdk |
| 23:54:24 | <jackdk> | alzgh: you're welcome, good luck. |
All times are in UTC on 2021-09-30.