Logs on 2021-10-03 (liberachat/#haskell)

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02:20:47	<hololeap>	we just need to invent 10 more words for "lift", like the Inuit have for snow (or maybe that's a myth)
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03:26:37	<koz>	hololeap: Elevate, ascend, raise, promote... yeah I'm out.
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03:28:09	<koz>	Oh yeah, 'boost', 'hoist', 'hike', 'erect', 'heft'.
03:28:14	<koz>	That's nine.
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04:13:46	<hololeap>	I've seen hoist used
04:13:58	<hololeap>	not sure about some of the others
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04:14:55	<hololeap>	heft?
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04:16:33	<hololeap>	hm, it seems a thesaurus might have been used here >:)
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06:25:17	<arahael>	invoke? await?
06:27:39	<arahael>	dispatch?
06:28:09	<arahael>	throw (especially with SEH exceptions!)
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09:15:53	<tomjaguarpaw>	Contrary to my claim yesterday, conduit doesn't have quadratic performance (only streaming and pipes do)
09:19:48	<Rembane>	What's n in this case?
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09:26:14	<tomjaguarpaw>	The benchmark in question is to lift and IO action at each leaf of a left-skewed tree
09:26:32	<tomjaguarpaw>	https://github.com/tomjaguarpaw/streaming-benchmark/blob/master/app/Tree.hs#L18-L43
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10:03:17	tomsmeding	sad that ghcup doesn't run on my android phone in termux
10:03:44	<tomsmeding>	But I mean, ghc itself probably doesn't
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10:08:38	<Hecate>	tomsmeding: you need to send flowers to angerman for this :)
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10:09:23	<angerman>	tomsmeding: why wouldn’t it?
10:09:30	<tomsmeding>	Hecate: you're saying that the arm work wasn't only for macos but also does the trick for android?
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10:09:47	<tomsmeding>	angerman: I'm going to try right now :p
10:09:54	<angerman>	tomsmeding: yes. It’s been for Mach-o and ELF
10:09:54	tomsmeding	is excited
10:10:20	<angerman>	No PE support though. So AArch64-windows is likely not an option.
10:11:04	<maerwald>	tomsmeding: what's the error?
10:11:05	<angerman>	tomsmeding: I hope you’ve got a 64bit device. Not sure how the 32bit quality is. The NCG is only AArch64
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10:11:21	<jneira[m]>	eta worked in android fine 😢
10:11:33	<angerman>	Yea. I’m still very sad about eta.
10:11:39	<tomsmeding>	maerwald: no such file or directory when trying to run the downloaded ghcup executable; presumably some library missing
10:11:51	<tomsmeding>	angerman: yeah 64 bit fortunately :)
10:11:52	<angerman>	I have some hope we might be able to eventually resurrect it after the current STG work.
10:11:53	<maerwald>	yeah, they're not static
10:12:14	<jneira[m]>	there is any work in extending backends for ghc?
10:12:52	<angerman>	jneira[m]: a little yes. Primarily to make Asterius easier. But with input form ghcjs experience as well.
10:13:22	<angerman>	jneira[m]: there is also a ton of work being done by Sylvian to make targets in GHC easier.
10:14:27	<Hecate>	jneira[m]: the idea is to bridge the gap between GHC & GHCJS so as to make JS & WASM targets of GHC (instead of forks)
10:14:32	<angerman>	jneira[m]: GHC 9.6 will likely be pretty cool if we can get all this in.
10:14:44	<Hecate>	JVM bytecode as well, although they had to fork in order to control more upstream bits of the pipeline, IIRC?
10:15:08	<jneira[m]>	sound great
10:15:30	<angerman>	Hecate: it’s most likely been the easier path. Fixing cabal upstream can be a pain. Getting patches into ghc can be a pain especially if you are experimenting a lot.
10:16:03	<jneira[m]>	some link to take a look for the JVM part? not sure if I will have time to help but just in case
10:17:13	<angerman>	IOHK has Luite working on merging ghcjs into ghc, (he’s been adding unboxed tuple and sums support to the interpreter a while back), and Sylvian is tasked with making plugins work with cross compilers.
10:17:25	<tomsmeding>	bash: utils/ghc-cabal/dist-install/build/tmp/ghc-cabal: No such file or directory
10:17:29	<angerman>	Tweag is working on Asterius and improving STG
10:17:37	<tomsmeding>	:( also some missing lib for ghc; now to check what it is
10:17:50	<angerman>	jneira[m]: other than the eta source, I don’t think I know of any.
10:18:25	<Hecate>	angerman: Frege maybe?
10:19:26	<jneira[m]>	it has no much activity and does not support ghc extensions afaik
10:19:51	<jneira[m]>	I see it more similar to purescript
10:20:14	<Hecate>	oké
10:20:21	<jneira[m]>	the JVM backend of ETA could be the starting point for sure
10:21:35	<tomsmeding>	Hm, 'find ../../usr -name libffi.so'*'' gives only '../../usr/lib/libffi.so', while ghc seems to refer to libffi.so.6.
10:21:38	<jneira[m]>	but I think there were some tech issues to support all ghc extensions, specially related with dependent typed
10:22:08	<jneira[m]>	but not sure I did not analyze them in deep
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10:34:16	<tomsmeding>	What other ways than ldd are there to debug missing dynamically linked libraries on "linux"?
10:35:04	<tomsmeding>	The binutils package in termux on android is a 5-line shell script that effectively calls objdump -p "$@" \| grep NEEDED, meaning that it doesn't check any resolving
10:35:25	<tomsmeding>	s/binutils/ldd executable in the binutils/
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10:50:36	<geekosaur>	tomsmeding, there are environment variables you can set that cause the runtime loader to dump debug information as it loads stuff
10:52:06	<geekosaur>	that said, it's not real smart about resolving. but you can watch its progress and the objects it loads and tries to resolve symbols from, including transitive dependencies
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11:04:04	<fusion86>	Quick question, which of these two is considered the "best" in haskell? 1. importing a whole module, or 2. importing only what you need from a module (e.g `import SDL.Font (Font)`). Or does this depend on how many things you import from a module?
11:05:50	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur: LD_DEBUG doesn't seem to do anything unfortunately
11:05:59	<tomsmeding>	(remember, android)
11:06:04	<byorgey>	fusion86: I tend to use both depending on how many things I import.
11:06:17	<geekosaur>	oh, I missed that part
11:06:26	<geekosaur>	yeh, android does its own thing :(
11:06:41	<geekosaur>	and sadly I suspect that means you lose any useful way to debug
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11:07:16	<byorgey>	fusion86: note that the best practice for writing "industrial-strength" code is probably for every import to either be qualified (import qualified SDL.Font as F) or list all the imports (import SDL.Font (Font)). That way you can easily tell where every name comes from.
11:07:29	<geekosaur>	fusion86, it also depends on the module. many modules expore more or less the same interface and expect to be imported either piece by piece or qualified
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11:08:16	<geekosaur>	(for example, there is significant overlap between list operations and Data.Map)
11:08:49	<clever>	byorgey: i also prefer writing code like that, it makes it trivial to trace imports down, without needing a full IDE
11:08:55	<geekosaur>	byorgey, that may actually be changing because with HLS yoyu can just point at something to see where it came from
11:09:08	<geekosaur>	and HLS is increasingly popular
11:09:10	<fusion86>	Yeah that was confusing at first (overlay between Data.Map and Data.Set etc)
11:09:22	<geekosaur>	there's enough stuff you already have to keep track of with e.g. types
11:09:23	<byorgey>	geekosaur: good point, tool support helps a lot here. I use HLS myself.
11:09:30	<fusion86>	Do you also fully qualify your own modules (withing the same package)
11:09:46	<sm>	isn't there an easy way to suppress or redirect stderr ? I'm not finding it
11:10:03	<fusion86>	Because usually you use a lot of exports from your own module
11:10:54	<byorgey>	fusion86: in practice, no, I don't. And as geekosaur points out, maybe I should stop feeling bad about it, because nice tools let us have nice things =)
11:10:55	<geekosaur>	sm, not specifically. usually you do that from the shell outside your program. but if the first thing you do in your program is close stderr and then open a Handle on /dev/null or some other file, it should do the same thing
11:10:57	<clever>	sm: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/silently-1.2.5.1
11:11:11	<clever>	silently will replace the stdout or stderr handles
11:11:24	<sm>	thanks!
11:11:34	<geekosaur>	sadly we don't have freopen built in, but see that package
11:11:56	<sm>	that looks perfect
11:12:34	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur: too bad, so close to ghc on my phone
11:12:34	<clever>	i think hDuplicateTo is the key bit of magic
11:12:43	<clever>	it overwrites a Handle object
11:12:55	<clever>	so you can modify what the stdout :: Handle points to
11:14:48	<geekosaur>	fusion86, my answer to that question is: usually not because I have more control over naming. but sometimes I'm duplicating APIs as I described above and then I will qualify
11:15:12	<geekosaur>	it entirely depends on the use case and what feels more "natural", imo
11:15:34	<fusion86>	alright, thanks for the input :)
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11:29:08	<tomjaguarpaw>	Is it possible to link to a section in Haddock?
11:31:24	<fusion86>	I think that is what the hash does? (Next to source)
11:31:47	<merijn>	I think he means include a link to a section in the docs of a function
11:31:54	<merijn>	Which, afaik, isn't possible atm
11:32:07	<merijn>	But sounds like it shouldn't be too hard to add and fairly useful
11:32:16	<merijn>	So I nominate tomjaguarpaw to shave that yak :p
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11:59:44	<tomjaguarpaw>	merijn: Yak shaved https://stackoverflow.com/questions/51572074/how-to-link-to-a-named-chunk-of-documentation-in-haddock/69424633#69424633
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12:02:36	<tomsmeding>	Small yak
12:05:09	<[exa]>	small yak but a welcome one
12:06:27	<merijn>	oh, neat
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12:59:59	<juri_>	https://www.davidrevoy.com/data/images/blog/2021/2021-09-09_yak-shaving_by-david-revoy.jpg
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13:03:47	<hpc>	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbSehcT19u0
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13:43:34	<birne>	Hi! Is this the right channel for beginner questions, or is there a more suitable place?
13:44:41	<geekosaur>	this one is fine
13:44:44	<merijn>	Depends whether they're beginner Haskell questions or, like, beginner baking :p
13:47:31	<birne>	Good point. Fortunately it's Haskell ;)
13:47:49	<spruit11>	> 0
13:47:51	<lambdabot>	0
13:48:36	<spruit11>	> let f = (\f -> f . f) in f (\x -> x + 1) 0
13:48:37	<lambdabot>	2
13:48:41	<pavonia>	Also, you can never be sure that an apparently innocent beginner question won't escalate to a complex category theory discussion :p
13:48:48	<spruit11>	> let f = (\f -> f . f) in f f f f (\x -> x + 1) 0
13:48:50	<lambdabot>	65536
13:49:37	<birne>	I'm really confused by Applicative.. I think I get what it does, as I just tried re-implementing it for a DIY list type and it works just the same, but I don't get the point. I know this is a very unspecific question, but maybe someone could point me to a good explanation of what it's used/useful for?
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13:51:14	<geekosaur>	Applicative works well for parsers, for one thing
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13:51:35	<birne>	To pile onto the confusion, I'm doing an exercise which asks me to define a zipWith using <*>, and I feel like I'm really missing the point somewhere, as I just can't of a non-convoluted way to implement it
13:52:44	<spruit11>	applicative is just another take on 'programming modulo a theory', right?
13:52:52	<birne>	Whoops, I meant to say I cant think of a way
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13:53:11	<merijn>	birne: Oh, maybe you're stumbling over the fact that lists actually have two lawful Applicatives?
13:53:36	<merijn>	birne: One that works like a generalised zip and one that works like Cartesian product
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13:54:42	<merijn>	birne: I think one of the simpler ones is Maybe
13:55:09	<merijn>	birne: Suppose you have two (optional) values and wanna combine them somehow if both exist (and detect if one is missing)
13:55:24	<merijn>	> (+) <$> Just 2 <*> Just 3
13:55:25	<lambdabot>	Just 5
13:55:29	<merijn>	> (+) <$> Just 2 <*> Nothing
13:55:30	<lambdabot>	Nothing
13:55:39	<merijn>	> (+) <$> Nothing <*> Just 3
13:55:40	<lambdabot>	Nothing
13:56:04	<spruit11>	when you look at the type of bind (M a) -> (a -> M b) -> (M b) and you switch the arguments you end up with (a -> M b) -> M a -> M b, which suspiciously looks like function application with some hand waving. applicative just takes it a bit more in that direction
13:56:09	<spruit11>	my $.02
13:56:13	<merijn>	birne: So I have a function on two values (the (+)), and 2 maybes where I may or may not have a value
13:56:19	<spruit11>	take it as you will. might be totally wrong
13:56:33	<merijn>	birne: Applicative lets you combine values "in" the Maybe without manually checking if they exist first
13:56:49	<merijn>	spruit11: That's Monad and not Applicative, though :)
13:57:04	<spruit11>	sure. I assume people understand that bind is of monad
13:57:45	<spruit11>	it's just all 'programming modulo some theory'. i.e., function application does a bit more than normal
13:57:58	<birne>	merijn: That sounds like it could be the issue. I think I re-implemented the cartesian product one and was really confused about how this is useful for implementing a zip.
13:57:58	<geekosaur>	well, "application with some hand waving" isn't wrong, it just takes you to one of the "parents" of Applicative (Arrow)
13:58:40	<merijn>	birne: There is a newtype "newtype ZipList a = ZipList { getZipList :: [a] }" that implement the other applicative
13:58:56	<merijn>	> (+) <$> [1..5] <*> [6..10]
13:58:57	<lambdabot>	[7,8,9,10,11,8,9,10,11,12,9,10,11,12,13,10,11,12,13,14,11,12,13,14,15]
13:59:06	<merijn>	> (+) <$> ZipList [1..5] <*> ZipList [6..10]
13:59:07	<lambdabot>	ZipList {getZipList = [7,9,11,13,15]}
13:59:22	<merijn>	> getZipList ((+) <$> ZipList [1..5] <*> ZipList [6..10])
13:59:23	<lambdabot>	[7,9,11,13,15]
14:00:09	<merijn>	birne: The main reason that the default one is Cartesian product is that Cartesian product has a lawful Monad and ZipList does not have a lawful Monad instance
14:00:33	<merijn>	and, for programmer sanity reasons, it's obviously preferred for the default Applicative to match the Monad instance :p
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14:03:51	<birne>	Well.. thanks for your input up to this point. Everything makes a bit more sense now, but I think I'll have to let my brain cool down for a second..
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14:51:39	<bobajett>	hello, I have a noob question about (recursion?) I think.
14:52:01	<bobajett>	I have a list xs = [104, 101, 108, 108, 111]
14:52:39	<[exa]>	bobajett: looks a bit like ascii "hello" right? :]
14:53:12	<bobajett>	exa correct. But I have a function Char -> [Char] - say foo 104 will return ['h','H']
14:53:43	<bobajett>	my problem is trying to do a for loop within a for loop
14:53:53	<bobajett>	so I can't figure out how to write a function that will
14:55:03	<[exa]>	guessing -- you want the function output something like properly capitalized "Hello", right?
14:55:30	<[exa]>	(or "HeLlO" or something :] )
14:55:46	<bobajett>	exa, thank you for being patient, I'm struggling to figure out how to pose my question .. one sec
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14:56:48	<[exa]>	ok (I'm doing laundry, might lag a bit)
14:57:05	<bobajett>	if i map say toUpper over each item of xs, I get "HELLO". But I'd like to map over xs
14:57:46	<bobajett>	ok let me put it this way. toGreek char = [returns lowercase greek char, uppercase greek char]
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14:58:08	<[exa]>	yes
14:58:37	<[exa]>	btw it's usually best to show a few examples of the outputs you want for various inputs
14:58:48	<bobajett>	now I'd like to write a function foo that returns ['h'//greek, 'e','l','l',o//english], ['H'//upper greek, 'e','l','l','o],
14:59:06	<bobajett>	and then similarly for each letter in hello, while keeping the rest of "hello" intact.
14:59:37	<bobajett>	in python it would be easy to index into the original list while for looping over it
14:59:56	<[exa]>	the 'h'//greek is "how 'h' would look in greek" right? something like χ say
15:00:04	<bobajett>	Correct
15:00:08	<[exa]>	ok perfect
15:01:25	<[exa]>	so the easiest haskell solution is to just 1] make a complete translations, say "hello" all in upper greek and lower greek 2] paste it together with something like `head upperGreekTranslation ++ tail lowerGreekTranslation` 3] rely on the laziness to remove the unnecessary evaluation for you for free
15:01:42	<[exa]>	*make both complete translations
15:02:38	<[exa]>	or, in your case, `head upperGreekTranslation ++ tail lowerEnglishTranslation`
15:04:23	<bobajett>	sorry let me try again, I'll paste this into a gist
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15:10:42	<bobajett>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/JEmQ244f
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15:13:53	<[exa]>	aah okay
15:15:17	<timCF>	Hello! Does anybody have an idea why I can't `mapM` over `Set a`? Compiler say the formal reason is that `Traversable` instance is not there, but I can't see the reason "why not".
15:15:48	<[exa]>	bobajett: so what if you add an accumulator to your function there that remembers what should be in the beginning of the string?
15:16:31	<bobajett>	exa! yes that makes sense! I think that's the pointer I needed!
15:16:49	<[exa]>	bobajett: in the list comprehension, you would return something like `accum ++ y:xs`
15:17:05	<bobajett>	Thank you thank you!!
15:17:07	<[exa]>	and for the call you'd just add the `x` to the end of `accum`
15:17:11	<[exa]>	but!
15:17:18	<bobajett>	aha a catch?
15:17:26	<[exa]>	there might be a better possibility!
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15:17:51	<[exa]>	if you look at your output, the first pair is basically right, while the others lack the 'h' on the beginning right?
15:18:12	<bobajett>	right
15:18:24	<[exa]>	so what about just adding the 'h' to the beginning of the result of `primitiveRecursion xs` ?
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15:18:36	<[exa]>	(you'll probably need double `map` )
15:18:56	<dsal>	:t mapM
15:18:57	<lambdabot>	(Traversable t, Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m (t b)
15:19:21	<bobajett>	ok I'll try to wrestle with that now, thanks!
15:19:56	<dsal>	timCF: You mean you don't know why Set isn't Traversable?
15:20:33	<timCF>	dsal: Yeah. My intuition say it should be, but it's not
15:20:34	<dsal>	timCF: Traversable is a subclass of Functor, and a Set can't be a Functor.
15:20:48	<[exa]>	bobajett: if lost, perhaps check out the type of `map (map (+1))`
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15:21:01	<bobajett>	Thank you!
15:21:04	<timCF>	dsal: because of the ordering issue?
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15:21:31	<dsal>	Not so much ordering, but because a functor has to retain shape on transform, and that's not generally possible with a Set.
15:21:44	<dsal>	> even <$> [1, 2, 3, 4]
15:21:45	<lambdabot>	[False,True,False,True]
15:21:51	<[exa]>	timCF: `fmap (const ())` would kinda destroy the structure, and you'd need to have Ord on the fmap to be able to implement that
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15:21:57	<dsal>	If you did that with a Set instead of a List, you'd end up with something that has a different size.
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15:22:44	<[exa]>	bobajett: yw, let us know how it ended up. :D
15:23:06	<timCF>	dsal: [exa]: oh, I got it. It's probably just because of how Set is represented in memory. Thanks!
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15:23:21	<dsal>	It's not about how it's represented in memory. It's about what it means.
15:23:37	<[exa]>	yep, literal Clash Of Invariants
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15:24:16	<dsal>	Set can't have duplicate elements and fmap can't change structure.
15:24:58	<[exa]>	(even if it could, it wouldn't know how to)
15:25:49	<timCF>	aaah
15:25:52	<timCF>	got it
15:26:33	<timCF>	if result of `f x` inside of `f <$> xs` will duplicate - it can not produce new set
15:27:10	<[exa]>	even `fmap id` is dangerous there-- how does it check there are no duplicates?
15:27:24	<dsal>	Yeah, you can think of `f <$> [a, b, c]` as `[f a, f b, f c]` and not be able to tell the difference. :)
15:27:25	<[exa]>	(except for deconstructing `id`, which it can't)
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15:30:04	<[exa]>	anyway, if you just want to do a single action on each element, you can `traverse.toList`
15:30:54	<[exa]>	and given you know you're e.g. not messing up the ordering, you can build the new map in O(1) with `fromAscendingList` or what was that called
15:31:36	<[exa]>	s/O(1)/O(n)/ whoops
15:31:37	<dsal>	if you're not messing up the ordering. The function can do anything.
15:35:02	<timCF>	In my case I just discovered that resulting value after traverse contains MVar and can not have Ord instance at all, so I guess I'll just use a list)
15:35:37	<bobajett>	exa I got it to work with the accumulator: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/mCeqfNp2 perhaps you provide the map (map) solution? :-)
15:35:48	<dsal>	using `toList` feels like giving up sometimes. heh
15:36:30	<dsal>	bobajett: Things get easier if you started putting type annotations on all your toplevel definitions.
15:37:24	<dsal>	You get to think in a higher level abstraction and see the patterns. Plus, people reading the code (like you) later can know what kinds of things are being done.
15:37:44	<bobajett>	dsal, yes, you're right! I'll start following that discipline. The initial frustration of hitting into the type error does pay off in a better understanding of the function later
15:39:30	<dsal>	e.g., I don't understand what `result2` is here.
15:39:54	<[exa]>	bobajett: o nice
15:40:43	<[exa]>	bobajett: in the prefixing solution, you'd just do `map (map (x:)) (foo' xs)`
15:41:02	<timCF>	bobajett: in some cases you need type annotation to make code work. Haskell type inference is good, but still limited.
15:41:05	<[exa]>	(assuming the accumulator isn't there ofc)
15:42:56	<bobajett>	dsal I was confused about how to do a sort of for loop within a for loop in haskell. using my basic knowledge of primitive recursive functions I would lose the beginning of the list
15:43:11	<bobajett>	until exa pointed out I should keep an accumulator to "remember" the front of the list
15:43:39	<dsal>	One nice thing about haskell is that it doesn't have any loops.
15:43:50	<dsal>	Another nice thing is how many loops it has.
15:43:58	<[exa]>	bobajett: anyway, the double map is technically a for-in-a-for-loop, just kinda more data-driven
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15:48:54	<dsal>	The cool thing is you can stop thinking about "loops" at some point and just start thinking about transformations. If you're using something like `map` then you only have to think about one thing at a time. If the one thing you're doing also needs a similar transformation, you can just think about that one thing at a time.
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16:06:31	<Cajun>	and transformations dont typically have off-by-one errors, its super nice
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16:08:19	<dsal>	Yeah, most of the "loop" like things wouldn't have off-by-one errors. maps, folds, etc... The exception is those partial folds on non-monoidal values that go poorly.
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16:09:34	<dsal>	In Haskell, you get to get different things wrong! :)
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16:14:20	<hpc>	in haskell you don't get off-by-one errors, you get off-by-infinity errors :D
16:15:07	<dsal>	Or off-by-bottom
16:15:21	<bobajett>	off-by-one errors are oh so mundance, off-by-infinity is much more exotic!
16:15:45	<bobajett>	s/mundance/mundane/
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16:17:06	<int-e>	. o O ( STG question: what happens if you ENTER a bottom-less pit... )
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16:21:52	<Digit>	has anyone made "Roll your own IRC bot" tutorial bot multi-chan capable? (and besides copying the code, even... is there a tutorial for that too?)
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16:23:31	<spruit11>	as far as I can see irc doesn't even make a big difference between channels
16:23:38	<spruit11>	at least, the protocol
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16:24:13	<spruit11>	it's just a field in a general message. it's the front end which presents it as multiple channels
16:24:36	<spruit11>	and the server won't send messages to you from other channels of course
16:25:09	<spruit11>	*make that the front-end of the client
16:25:35	Digit	gives his brain a go at trying to make the tutorial's mono-chan example bot join more chans, optimistically, but experience teaches him to expect fail.
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16:29:47	<int-e>	clean = drop 1 . dropWhile (/= ':') . drop 1 <-- that's not clean at all
16:33:32	<int-e>	(This turns ":dons!i=dons@my.net PRIVMSG #tutbot-testing :hello" into just "hello", but that means it ignores the source (dons...), the command (PRIVMSG), and the target (#tutbot-testing), all of which is pretty relevant informaiton.)
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17:13:25	<Cajun>	oh and while "off by infinity" is still relevant, what does it mean when GHC says "cannot construct the infinite type [something]"? ive never really understood what that means
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17:14:44	<pavonia>	It tries to infer something like a = [a] which would give an infinte type
17:18:10	<Cajun>	i guess that makes sense, thanks :)
17:18:12	<[exa]>	Cajun: take a function with 2 branches: `f 0 a = a; f 1 a = [a]`. GHC assumes that the return types must be same outside (because both are returned from the same function) and also same inside (because they share `a`). That gives you equation `a = [a]` and the only valid solution to that is to substitute `a` with infinite nested lists, because, mathematically, `[[[[[[...]]]]]] == [[[[[[...]]]]]]`, right? :]
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17:20:02	<Cajun>	so it always means your resulting type (or whatever the term for the rightmost type in the signature is) is messed up in one of the branches?
17:21:32	<c_wraith>	it is an error attempting to unify the types of something somewhere. You can manage it without any branches.
17:22:33	<Taneb>	:t \x -> x ++ [x]
17:22:34	<lambdabot>	error:
17:22:34	<lambdabot>	• Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a ~ [a]
17:22:34	<lambdabot>	• In the expression: x
17:25:11	<c_wraith>	I remember hearing that there was an experimental version of ML that allowed infinite types, and it turned out that a surprising number of type errors were infinite types.
17:25:35	<Cajun>	how would you even compute an infinite type?
17:25:43	<hpc>	same way you compute an infinite value
17:25:46	<hpc>	lazily
17:25:59	<c_wraith>	you can have infinite types in Haskell, you just need to hide that fact from the compiler.
17:26:32	<hpc>	if you have the type [[[...]]], you know what the data constructors for that type are because [] is the "constructor" of the type
17:27:26	<hpc>	and yeah, take a look at Fix for one way to break the loop for ghc
17:28:48	<c_wraith>	after all, if you went to the trouble of creating a non-infinite wrapper for an infinite type, you probably actually meant to
17:29:19	<c_wraith>	It's only when it discovers an infinite type that it reports a bug.
17:29:44	<c_wraith>	I recall exactly once when it wasn't a program bug, and the solution was a wrapper to make the types finite.
17:29:53	<c_wraith>	(in the stuff I've done)
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17:32:38	<zincy_>	If I am writing a compiler which outputs Javascript how should I output the Javascript code?
17:33:17	<c_wraith>	the only answer possible from that level of detail is "as javascript code"
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17:34:06	<zincy_>	Yeah bad question
17:34:11	<zincy_>	Let me think
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17:48:37	<[exa]>	zincy_: write a prettifier and just prettyprint it ?
17:50:55	<zincy_>	So there isn't a clever way of generating JS it usually just comes down to writing the JS to some degree out explicitly?
17:51:13	<zincy_>	Was thinking perhaps there is a library where you could use data constructors to create JS exprs
17:51:52	<zincy_>	So I am thinking DslAST -> jsAST -> Text
17:52:13	<[exa]>	you might actually steal something battle-tested from GHCJS
17:53:38	<zincy_>	Yeah
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17:54:24	<zincy_>	So even if you target a backend like LLVM is a compiler always mapping an AST from one language into another language's AST?
17:54:48	<zincy_>	Or does it ever make sense to skip the AST transformation and just go straight to Text
17:55:00	<zincy_>	Hmm optimisations I guess is the point
17:55:14	<[exa]>	I just found `JMacro` which seems to be the base for what ghcjs does
17:55:59	<zincy_>	wow nice find
17:56:02	<zincy_>	Looks perfect
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17:57:02	<[exa]>	anyway these decisions usually depend on how complicated the compiler is; the general advice for compilers is to keep the IR as long as possible because you'll inevitably be adding one other final compile pass for like 20 times
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17:57:44	<[exa]>	and having a solid prettyprinter allows you to inspect the stuff in the middle, which is priceless
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17:58:42	<monochrom>	Whenever you have parentheses and precedence to worry about, going directly to string is less manageable.
17:59:39	<[exa]>	(((((or just play it safe)))))
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18:00:48	<[exa]>	wow actually JMacro structure looks pretty much straightforward
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18:01:51	<zincy_>	Yeah thanks for finding it :)
18:02:10	<zincy_>	monochrom: Cool, so direct to string is more for trivial compilers
18:02:27	<[exa]>	I expected dark magicks but the AST is just there, which is cool
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18:03:44	<[exa]>	zincy_: re strings, perhaps that's more like for languages where making the intermediate structure right is PITA, like perl, java, pythons, C's, ...
18:04:58	<zincy_>	[exa]: So those langs are where you dont want strings right?
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18:05:17	<[exa]>	no these langs are generally where you don't want to manage large ASTs
18:05:35	<zincy_>	oh
18:06:07	<[exa]>	like, defining a nice working AST in haskell is magically simple in haskell, you've got all the tools to do it right in the most naive way imaginable
18:06:40	<zincy_>	Ah sorry I think I misunderstood you are talking about the lang the compiler is implemented in not the target of the compiler
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18:07:08	<[exa]>	in OOP languages you start with some kind of an abstract class, visitor which is insufficiently polymorphic, recursion-simulating traversal engine, ...
18:07:24	<[exa]>	and in perl you just smash the regexes together™
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18:08:03	<zincy_>	So is compiler structure the same high level across OOP vs functional but the implementation is just different
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18:08:33	<zincy_>	As in if I did a compilers undergrad course would that all be pretty applicable to Haskell (assuming course is OOP)
18:08:39	<[exa]>	yeah, compilers are usually just functions from some AST/IR to another AST/IR
18:08:58	<[exa]>	yep, generally
18:09:33	<[exa]>	compilers are about battling the complexity of the language you're compiling, the complexity of the language used for implementation of the compiler kinda abstracts out usually
18:09:58	<zincy_>	ok thats good to hear
18:10:01	<[exa]>	that said, many undergrad courses spend like 50% of the time with "how not to do the parsing wrong"
18:10:23	<[exa]>	which is cool and people at least unlearn to write parsers by hand
18:10:32	<zincy_>	and the answer is use Megaparsec and you can't :D
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18:11:42	<[exa]>	and the second half-or-less is a straightforward "let's translate to SSA, then to stack-ish machine and then to assembly, and think about how cool it would be to have simple optimizations"
18:12:48	<[exa]>	which is technically nice because 90% of the students then become kinda self sufficient with the ability to reimplement some useful subset of C
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18:13:10	<[exa]>	no idea about your particular course though, ymmv :]
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18:13:51	<monochrom>	Wait, I think it's easier to AST->stackmachine first, then stackmachine->SSA, then SSA-ASM.
18:14:17	<[exa]>	ah, likely
18:14:44	<monochrom>	Or skip stackmachine. At any rate I think SSA->stackmachine->ASM is counterproductive.
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18:15:36	<sprout>	uh, if any I would assume ast->ssa->stack->asm
18:15:45	<sprout>	why stack first?
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18:16:04	<monochrom>	I once did ast->stack and it was too easy.
18:16:25	<[exa]>	depends on the language I'd say
18:16:31	<monochrom>	It's just like implementing an RPN calculator.
18:16:33	<[exa]>	but yeah good point. :]
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18:17:36	<monochrom>	Hutton also kept doing ast->stack for like 20 years. Only recently dared to try register machine.
18:17:58	<[exa]>	thinking about that now, on the C sample
18:18:16	<[exa]>	you can do pretty well with just ast->stackmachine->asm
18:20:25	<[exa]>	then you go for SSA as optimization, then a stack+register machine (for spilling stuff), then asm
18:21:20	<[exa]>	otoh direct ast->ssa isn't that hard for C either, or am I missing something?
18:21:54	<monochrom>	Yeah I'm OK with skipping the stack machine.
18:22:20	<[exa]>	so many possibilities. :]
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19:14:06	<hatds>	How should cabal and shake be combined for a single project? I have an old project (written in Haskell & C) that uses a shake file to build everything. I want to create a cabal file to track the package dependencies, but first I need to wrap my head around how cabal would know how to build it.
19:18:40	<sm>	hatds, make a cabal project (cabal init, see docs), where Main-is: Shake.hs, I'm guessing
19:19:20	<hatds>	sm: ah
19:20:04	<sclv>	i'm rather dubious of that approach?
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19:21:56	<sm>	I make my shake files stack scripts, so they specify deps in the header
19:22:03	<sm>	you can do similar with cabal
19:23:13	<sclv>	right you can use cabal to manage the deps for the _shake file_
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19:23:45	<sclv>	but this is about using cabal to manage the deps for the whole project that shake builds
19:23:45	<sclv>	I think?
19:23:54	<hatds>	yeah
19:24:08	<hatds>	just the haskell dependencies, but yes for the whole project
19:24:52	<sclv>	i would suggest instead creating a cabal file with a dummy target and all the deps, and then building it with the ghc-env file creation flag on
19:25:13	<sclv>	then ghc as invoked from shake can pick up and use that env file to have all deps in scope
19:26:39	<zincy_>	Say I have a FromJSON instance for Person and I have a JSON object of people where each person is an object. How would I write the [Person] parser in Aeson?
19:27:10	<hatds>	sclv: didn't know about ghc-env files, it sounds exactly like the missing piece I need
19:27:29	<clever>	zincy_: i think Generic can auto-generate that
19:27:47	<sclv>	they're a bit underdocumented and advertised, so its a bit fiddly to make em work (the auto-discovery path logic is sort of confusing to people to) but they're super handy!
19:28:47	<clever>	zincy_: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-1.5.6.0/docs/Data-Aeson.html#v:genericParseJSON i think
19:31:05	<clever>	zincy_: although, reading more, it looks like you dont have to do anything, check the instances of https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-1.5.6.0/docs/Data-Aeson.html#t:FromJSON
19:31:26	<clever>	instance (FromJSON a) => FromJSON [a] where parseJSON = parseJSON1
19:31:35	<clever>	its a default instance
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19:33:07	<zincy_>	Cheers yeah seems you get a parser for the [a] by default
19:33:19	<zincy_>	But that parser expects Array not Object
19:33:23	<zincy_>	in the json
19:33:45	<c_wraith>	Um.. yes?
19:34:38	<zincy_>	haha no suprises there
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19:52:55	<zincy_>	Got there in the end - Aeson objects are hash maps who would have thought
19:53:26	<Hecate>	zincy_: yes they are
19:53:38	<Hecate>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-1.5.6.0/docs/Data-Aeson.html#t:Object
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21:15:23	<Hecate>	I feel like I'm in Hell
21:15:28	<Hecate>	crypto-api doesn't have tests
21:15:39	<Hecate>	someone kidnap me from this reality plz
21:16:42	Rembane	hands Hecate a fuzzer
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21:22:39	<[exa]>	Hecate: crypto-api is just an interface right?
21:23:19	<[exa]>	oh noes they do padding
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21:26:12	<Hecate>	[exa]: well there is an implem for SystemRandom that could use some testing I imagine?
21:26:15	<Hecate>	https://github.com/TomMD/crypto-api/blob/7e63e97886b8948bf88401e1497e15040ac2500e/Crypto/Random.hs#L184-L191
21:26:40	<c_wraith>	what's there to test in that? It just relays to the entropy library
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21:28:28	<Hecate>	c_wraith: yeah… speaking about that…
21:28:28	<Hecate>	https://github.com/TomMD/entropy
21:28:32	<Hecate>	no tests either 🙃
21:28:48	<Hecate>	maybe there is nothing to be tested there as well
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21:34:14	<janus>	how would a test for an entropy fetching library look like?
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21:34:41	<janus>	just pass if it doesn't segfault?
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21:36:59	<Hecate>	I am not a cryptographer /o\
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21:37:11	<Hecate>	that being said, other people have some opinion about this: https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/concepts/testing/entropy_quality_tests
21:37:26	<Hecate>	https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2020/02/04/entropy-extractor-nist-sts/
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21:52:00	<alzgh>	hello, how can I reset GHCi without quitting?
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21:52:39	<c_wraith>	:reload will clear any local definitions, but it won't reset what extensions are in use or what modules are loaded
21:53:09	<alzgh>	OK, thanks
21:53:14	<geekosaur>	:load will reset modules and local definitions but not top level
21:53:32	<geekosaur>	I don't think there's a single reset thing, they just expect you to quit and start over
21:53:39	<geekosaur>	ghci really could use some UX love
21:53:57	<alzgh>	what do you mean with top level? geekosaur
21:54:06	<geekosaur>	specifically including someone(s) sitting down and figuring out what a good UX would be
21:54:22	<geekosaur>	same thing as what c_wraith meant by local definitions
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21:55:21	<geekosaur>	(this is actually a little obscure as you might not bve at top level if you are currently debugging an expression; I'm not sure how well ghci handles a :r or :l under those conditions
21:55:27	<geekosaur>	)
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All times are in UTC on 2021-10-03.