Logs on 2021-10-06 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:00:25	<lbseale>	I am trying to read an input from stdin using Data.Text.IO, why would using `putStr` not show my prompt, but `putStrLn` show it?
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00:00:44	<lbseale>	When I use `putStr`, it only prints after the program is finished
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00:02:21	<lbseale>	And I only have this problem after I compile it with GHC, it does not occur if I run it with `runhaskell`
00:02:33	<monochrom>	Buffering.
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00:02:54	<monochrom>	Use "hFlush stdout". (import System.IO)
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00:04:00	<monochrom>	Or look under System.IO for "hSetBuffering".
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00:04:59	<monochrom>	In a Unix-and-C course I pose a related puzzle to my students.
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00:05:37	<monochrom>	have a printf("hello"), then fork, then printf(" there\n"). Why do you see two hello's, not just one?
00:08:31	<lbseale>	thank you very much! I used `hSetBuffering` and it did just what I wanted
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00:17:50	<geekosaur>	and the reason it works with runhaskell (and ghci) is that those automatically turn off buffering
00:18:09	<lbseale>	ah thanks geekosaur , I was wondering
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00:51:26	<zzz>	quick question: what's the function we use to turn a list into a list of same sized chunks?
00:51:45	<geekosaur>	@index chunksOf
00:51:45	<lambdabot>	bzzt
00:51:48	<geekosaur>	bah
00:51:51	<geekosaur>	:t chunksOf
00:51:53	<lambdabot>	Int -> [e] -> [[e]]
00:52:19	<geekosaur>	in Data.List.Split from the split package. also look there for other kinds of list splitters
00:52:22	<zzz>	is that from Data.List?
00:52:26	<zzz>	ah... ok
00:52:28	<zzz>	Split
00:52:40	<zzz>	that's what i was forgetting
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06:30:40	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: okay yeah, that point of how untyped lambda calculus gives you power by essentially allowing you to unify a and a->a is kind of compelling
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06:32:45	<tomsmeding>	still, that's within a functional world. If you go claiming that even in the non-functional world, you need self-reference to do anything (which I guess is true for the right definition of self-reference, with the labels discussed earlier), you don't even need this functional argument anymore: your FPL interpreter runs on a very imperative processor :p
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06:43:08	<libertyprime>	Hey guys. need some help figuring out why I am getting "Could not find module ‘Data.Aeson’". Here is my code: http://github.com/semiosis/ilambda/blob/master/hs-stack/app/Main.hs
06:43:23	<libertyprime>	I have tried running hlint through stack, and that checks out fine with no errors.
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06:44:08	<libertyprime>	However I am using hie which is providing the error through my LSP client
06:44:44	<libertyprime>	I have tried creating both cabal and stack projects, the stack project which defers to cabal anyway for the adding of the dependency
06:44:58	<jneira[m]>	i hope it will be haskell-language-server(hls) and not hie :-)
06:45:31	<libertyprime>	Oh, sorry, you're right. I'm using hls
06:45:52	<jneira[m]>	hie was the predecessor of hls, still is mentioning in some docs and config files though
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06:47:12	<jneira[m]>	ok, i think maybe you are hitting https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server/issues/366
06:47:48	<jneira[m]>	so you need to succesfully build the package with `stack clean && stack build`, before opening it in the editor
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06:48:53	<jneira[m]>	if the lib was not built or contain compile errors when opening the editor, tests and executables cant be loaded
06:49:10	<jneira[m]>	😥
06:50:43	<jneira[m]>	it should work for cabal, but to make hls picks cabal to load the project you have to delete/rename stack.yaml or create a explicit `hie.yaml` config file telling hls using cabal
06:53:26	<libertyprime>	jneira[m]: thank you very much for this info. extremely helpful. i will try again for cabal exclusively. i have a bit of my own legacy scripts. wondering now if i can avoid all of this by using nix
06:54:04	<jneira[m]>	well you will avoid some issues and will have some new ones :-D
06:55:07	<jneira[m]>	but that is the fate of programming i suppose, at least the new ones could be more interesting :-P
06:56:28	<libertyprime>	ah hell. yeah. upon beginning working on my project as you can see with haskell, and an otherwise sexy emacs setup, i have realised getting over this hill is sooooo worth it. i had a glimpse at basically using this hacky as project with my shell interop working inside haskell. ill give my setup some more work tonight. just want hls to be g.
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07:00:35	<libertyprime>	jneira[m]: how important is the linting to the workings of hls? if i ignore the issue will hls function normally areas? or is the linter coupled with other things such as code actions?
07:00:39	<libertyprime>	https://asciinema.org/a/v6HGLeIDtQju4qQIBsurRRnsh
07:01:31	<jneira[m]>	it is totally optional and you can disable it via configuration
07:02:35	<libertyprime>	oh, perfect. :) i have something that works well enough then
07:02:39	<jneira[m]>	https://haskell-language-server.readthedocs.io/en/latest/configuration.html#generic-plugin-configuration
07:02:42	<libertyprime>	thanks. not going to test fate
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07:03:13	<libertyprime>	do you want to see some haskell pick up lines?
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07:03:40	<jneira[m]>	so `haskell.plugin.hlint.globalOn: false`should make it be silenced
07:04:25	<jneira[m]>	not sure how to set it in emacs, lsp-haskell plugin docs might help you
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08:04:38	<Guest20>	How would I take an input list in HSpec and compare it to an output list while also describing what each comparison means (through a list of descriptions) ?
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08:05:15	<Guest20>	I guess I could just compare the lists but that would waste a lot of the information
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09:02:31	<Guest20>	I _almost_ figured it out. now I just need a way to run a [IO ()]
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09:02:49	<Guest20>	this sounds like I'm writing garbage haskell (and I probably am)
09:03:49	<merijn>	Guest20: Sounds like you want sequence/sequence_
09:04:01	<merijn>	Guest20: Or, more likely: mapM_
09:04:04	<merijn>	:t sequence
09:04:05	<lambdabot>	(Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a)
09:04:06	<merijn>	:t sequence_
09:04:07	<lambdabot>	(Foldable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m ()
09:04:11	<merijn>	:t mapM_
09:04:12	<lambdabot>	(Foldable t, Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m ()
09:04:31	<kuribas>	merijn: traverse_
09:04:54	<Guest20>	:t traverse_
09:04:55	<lambdabot>	(Foldable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f ()
09:05:22	<Guest20>	ok so sequence_ it is
09:05:51	<Guest20>	what doc do I need to read to be aware of this? x)
09:06:25	<kuribas>	Guest20: base :)
09:06:46	<kuribas>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base
09:07:18	<kuribas>	Guest20: if it's monadic, it'll be probably in Control.Monad or Control.Applicative.
09:07:50	<kuribas>	well traverse_ is in Data.Foldable.
09:08:02	<kuribas>	maybe just ask here :)
09:08:05	<merijn>	Guest20: Foldable/Traversable are important enough that you usually encounter them fairly quickly
09:08:25	<Guest20>	kuribas: thank you that means a lot :)
09:08:35	<merijn>	Guest20: In general, skimming the module list of "base" and skimming some random modules in it every few weeks is a good way to discover a lot of neat stuff :)
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09:09:05	<kuribas>	When I started learning haskell I went over every function in the prelude.
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09:12:14	<kuribas>	but you don't need to memorise base, just skimming as merijn said, so you know what is there, and can come back later to look it up.
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09:14:47	<arahael>	Uh... Yes.... I'm advertising a channel, sorry guys!
09:15:01	arahael	types it correctly, this time.
09:15:02	<kuribas>	free monads!
09:16:58	<Guest20>	TIL I can't do IO inside an HSpec describe block
09:17:27	<Guest20>	the docs say I just use before_
09:18:16	<Guest20>	but I'm not just trying to flush a database somewhere, I want to read a file and test with it
09:20:54	<dminuoso>	Of course you can
09:21:43	<dminuoso>	describe :: HasCallStack => String -> SpecWith a -> SpecWith a
09:21:46	<dminuoso>	type SpecWith a = SpecM a ()
09:21:55	<dminuoso>	runIO :: IO r -> SpecM a r
09:23:09	<Guest20>	but ghc complains that it couldn't match type IO with SpecWith o_o
09:23:29	<Guest20>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/YgN1ODrh
09:24:30	<Guest20>	I only get it on getDirectoryContents
09:24:44	<dminuoso>	Guest20: Use `runIO`
09:26:06	<merijn>	I find hspec's types entirely undecipherable
09:26:19	<dminuoso>	Well they are clearly not undecipherable.
09:26:24	<dminuoso>	You probably meant annoying to decipher.
09:26:45	<dminuoso>	Normally I wouldn't care, but I expect more language precision from you, merijn.
09:27:54	<merijn>	They are undecipherable to me, because by the 2nd indirection of clicking through things I run out of motivation/care and give up
09:30:06	<arahael>	merijn: We need more people like you here. :)
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09:35:04	<kuribas>	haskellers have a tendency to overcomplicate things.
09:35:17	<kuribas>	where it's the opposite in clojure, they oversimplify things.
09:35:44	<arahael>	One can't overly-simplify.
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09:36:47	<kuribas>	yes, one can. By pushing complexity around.
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09:38:26	<kuribas>	then you get a seemingly very simple solution, only you have to deal later with the consequences.
09:38:32	<merijn>	I mean it seems weird to demand "more precise" natural language about subjective statements
09:39:04	<kuribas>	Like in clojure requiring a huge testsuite if you want to get some degree of robustness.
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09:40:46	<kuribas>	or like using nil everywhere, look we got rid of those pesky Maybe's!
09:44:49	<dminuoso>	I think a major issue is that programmers in general have a misconception about what abstraction is, and when to use it.
09:44:56	<dminuoso>	To quote Dijkstra "The purpose of abstraction is not to be vague, but to create a new semantic level in which one can be absolutely precise"
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09:45:32	<dminuoso>	More often than not, programmers make vague things and label it "an abstraction" for an increase in perceived professionality
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09:46:25	<kuribas>	OO design patterns...
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09:55:12	<koishi_>	Is it possible to enable 'RebindableSyntax' locally?
09:57:29	<koishi_>	Hmm, I have to move some functions into a separate module anyways due to 'import'...
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10:00:50	<Guest20>	Is it normal for https://hackage.haskell.org/package/megaparsec-9.2.0/docs/Text-Megaparsec-Char-Lexer.html#v:charLiteral
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10:01:02	<Guest20>	to error out on parsing "\/" ?
10:01:12	<Guest20>	lexical error in string/character literal at character '/'
10:01:46	<Guest20>	there are no issues with other escape chars like \n, \t ...
10:02:21	<Guest20>	is there something specific about haskell conventions that makes this possible?
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10:20:57	<dminuoso>	Guest20: I dont quite understand the problem.
10:21:04	<dminuoso>	Can you provide the input and the code you're using?
10:21:40	<Guest20>	the code is simply `parseTest charLiteral "\/"`
10:21:46	<Guest20>	on ghci
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10:23:47	<Guest20>	dminuoso: trying `parseTest charLiteral "\n" doesn't throw a parse error
10:23:59	<Guest20>	(this is Megaparsec)
10:25:13	<dminuoso>	% import Data.Char
10:25:13	<yahb>	dminuoso:
10:25:30	<dminuoso>	% readLitChar "\/"
10:25:30	<yahb>	dminuoso: ; <interactive>:6:15: error: lexical error in string/character literal at character '/'
10:25:51	<dminuoso>	Guest20: So yeah, megaparsec ends up using readLitChar as per note:
10:26:09	<dminuoso>	"The literal character is parsed according to the grammar rules defined in the Haskell report."
10:26:52	<dminuoso>	What this essentially means is:
10:26:58	<dminuoso>	"\/" is not a valid haskell string.
10:27:34	<dminuoso>	Because \/ is not considered a valid character according to the grammar rules defined in the Haskell report.
10:27:48	<dminuoso>	More to the point:
10:27:58	<dminuoso>	% '\/' -- is not a valid haskell character
10:27:59	<yahb>	dminuoso: ; <interactive>:9:3: error: lexical error in string/character literal at character '/'
10:28:03	<dminuoso>	Guest20: Does this make sense?
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10:28:40	<Guest20>	is makes perfect sense but the implications scare me
10:28:53	<Guest20>	how would replace readLitCHar
10:29:08	<Guest20>	s/would/would I
10:29:35	<dminuoso>	Well you have to define what this would even mean to you.
10:29:47	<dminuoso>	But really, you can simply do this yourself.
10:29:49	<dminuoso>	Use lookahead
10:30:13	<dminuoso>	*lookAhead
10:30:22	<Guest20>	Alright I have some reading to do
10:30:42	<olibiera>	is there any function that takes a list and divides it? for example [1,2,3,4,5,6] turns into ([1,2,3],[4,5,6])
10:31:23	<dminuoso>	olibiera: You mean something like https://hackage.haskell.org/package/split-0.2.3.4/docs/Data-List-Split.html#v:chunksOf ?
10:31:37	<dminuoso>	You can find variations of it on hackage, or you can just roll it yourself.
10:31:44	<dminuoso>	It's a relatively straight forward 4-5 liner
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10:32:54	<olibiera>	not really i needed it in tuple
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10:55:33	<kuribas>	olibiera: span?
10:55:35	<kuribas>	or splitAt?
10:55:37	<kuribas>	:t span
10:55:38	<lambdabot>	(a -> Bool) -> [a] -> ([a], [a])
10:55:41	<kuribas>	:t splitAt
10:55:42	<lambdabot>	Int -> [a] -> ([a], [a])
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10:57:43	<kuribas>	> splitAt 3 [1..6]
10:57:45	<lambdabot>	([1,2,3],[4,5,6])
10:57:54	<kuribas>	> span (< 4) [1..6]
10:57:56	<lambdabot>	([1,2,3],[4,5,6])
10:58:05	<olibiera>	ty!
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12:27:26	<Guest87>	halve :: [a] -> ([a],[a])
12:27:27	<Guest87>	halve [] = ([],[])
12:27:27	<Guest87>	halve [x] = ([x],[])
12:27:28	<Guest87>	halve xs = ([x \| x <- take (length xs `div` 2) xs], [y \| y <- ys])
12:27:28	<Guest87>	where ys = if (length xs `div` 2 /= 0)
12:27:29	<Guest87>	then drop (length xs `div` 2) + 1
12:27:29	<Guest87>	else drop (length xs `div` 2)
12:27:41	<Guest87>	can someone tell me what is wrong with this code?
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12:29:21	<merijn>	Aside from the list comprehensions being redundant and the repeat length calls being super slow?
12:29:42	<merijn>	"[ y \| y <- ys]" <- why not just write "ys"?
12:30:08	<Guest8747>	right
12:30:17	<merijn>	Same for "[x \| x <- take (length xs `div` 2) xs]", that's just "take (length xs `div` 2) xs" with extra steps...
12:31:11	<hpc>	you might also consider using mod, instead of that if
12:31:14	<merijn>	Oh
12:31:14	<hpc>	> 5 `mod` 2
12:31:16	<lambdabot>	1
12:31:27	<merijn>	I have questions about your if condition
12:31:39	<merijn>	Ah, no, I guess that if it typechecks it's fine
12:31:57	<merijn>	But also, it's useless because that branch is only taken if xs has at least 2 elements, so it's always true
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12:32:54	<Guest8747>	halve :: [a] -> ([a],[a])
12:32:54	<Guest8747>	halve [] = ([],[])
12:32:55	<Guest8747>	halve [x] = ([x],[])
12:32:55	<Guest8747>	halve xs = (take (length xs `div` 2) xs, ys)
12:32:56	<Guest8747>	where ys = if (length xs `div` 2 /= 0)
12:32:56	<Guest8747>	then drop (length xs `div` 2) + 1
12:32:57	<Guest8747>	else drop (length xs `div` 2)
12:33:13	<Guest8747>	it still doesnt compile
12:33:37	<merijn>	because: 1) the "then" case isn't correctly parenthesised
12:33:46	<merijn>	2) you forgot to give a list argument to drop
12:34:03	<merijn>	"drop ((length xs `div` 2) + 1)"
12:34:23	<merijn>	Your current version parses as "(drop (length xs `div` 2)) + 1"
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12:35:32	<maerwald>	@hoogle (k -> a -> m Bool) -> Map k a -> Map k a
12:35:34	<lambdabot>	No results found
12:35:34	<maerwald>	srsly...
12:35:38	<maerwald>	oops
12:35:42	<Guest8747>	can u explain 2)?
12:35:50	<maerwald>	@hoogle (k -> a -> m Bool) -> Map k a -> m (Map k a)
12:35:51	<lambdabot>	No results found
12:35:53	<maerwald>	...
12:36:08	<Guest8747>	are u saying it should be where ys xs...
12:36:09	<Guest8747>	?
12:36:22	<merijn>	Guest8747: "drop f list"
12:36:35	<merijn>	Guest8747: In your code "ys" is a function
12:36:39	<merijn>	i.e. partially applied drop
12:39:06	<Guest8747>	halve :: [a] -> ([a],[a])
12:39:06	<Guest8747>	halve [] = ([],[])
12:39:07	<Guest8747>	halve [x] = ([x],[])
12:39:07	<Guest8747>	halve xs = (take (length xs `div` 2) xs, ys)
12:39:08	<Guest8747>	where ys xs = if (length xs `div` 2 /= 0)
12:39:08	<Guest8747>	then drop ((length xs `div` 2) + 1)
12:39:09	<Guest8747>	else drop (length xs `div` 2)
12:39:13	<Guest8747>	so what do i change here?
12:39:24	<Guest8747>	merijn
12:39:46	<sshine>	> let halve xs = splitAt (length xs `quot` 2) xs in halve [1,2,3] -- it rounds the wrong way, but other than that...?
12:39:47	<lambdabot>	([1],[2,3])
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12:40:36	<merijn>	Change it to "drop (length xs `div` 2) xs"
12:40:43	<sshine>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/Prelude.html#v:splitAt
12:41:08	<merijn>	splitAt and length is still inefficient!
12:41:30	<merijn>	Clearly the way to go: https://gist.github.com/merijn/c163cc106fd245d1cf2e :p
12:41:45	<Guest8747>	merijn but if the list has an odd number of elements?
12:42:12	<merijn>	Guest8747: You need to add "xs" to both calls to drop
12:42:24	<merijn>	Guest8747: Also, your currentl logic doesn't check for odd number of elements
12:42:31	<merijn>	Guest8747: It checks for "less than 2" elements
12:42:41	<merijn>	> 3 `div` 2
12:42:43	<lambdabot>	1
12:44:12	<Guest8747>	it was that thx!
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12:54:36	<Guest8747>	> let halve xs = (take (length xs `div` 2) xs, ys)
12:54:36	<Guest8747>	where ys = if (length xs `mod` 2 /= 0)
12:54:37	<Guest8747>	then drop ((length xs `div` 2) + 1) xs
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12:54:37	<Guest8747>	else drop (length xs `div` 2) xs
12:54:37	<lambdabot>	<no location info>: error:
12:54:37	<lambdabot>	not an expression: ‘let halve xs = (take (length xs `div` 2) xs, ys)’
12:55:05	<merijn>	You can't do multiline code in lambdabot
12:55:22	<Guest8747>	halve xs = (take (length xs `div` 2) xs, ys)
12:55:23	<Guest8747>	where ys = if (length xs `mod` 2 /= 0) then drop ((length xs `div` 2) + 1) xs else drop (length xs `div` 2) xs
12:55:34	<Guest8747>	> halve xs = (take (length xs `div` 2) xs, ys)
12:55:35	<Guest8747>	where ys = if (length xs `mod` 2 /= 0) then drop ((length xs `div` 2) + 1) xs else drop (length xs `div` 2) xs
12:55:36	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:10: error: parse error on input ‘=’
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12:56:19	<Guest8747>	> let halve xs = (take (length xs `div` 2) xs, ys)
12:56:19	<Guest8747>	where ys = if (length xs `mod` 2 /= 0) then drop ((length xs `div` 2) + 1) xs else drop (length xs `div` 2) xs
12:56:21	<lambdabot>	<no location info>: error:
12:56:21	<lambdabot>	not an expression: ‘let halve xs = (take (length xs `div` 2) xs, ys)’
12:56:27	<Guest8747>	nvm
12:57:34	<Guest8747>	i want [1,2,3,4] to turn in ([1,2],[3,4]) for exemple
12:57:43	<Guest8747>	halve :: [a] -> ([a],[a])
12:57:44	<Guest8747>	halve [] = ([],[])
12:57:44	<Guest8747>	halve [x] = ([x],[])
12:57:45	<Guest8747>	halve xs = (take (length xs `div` 2) xs, ys)
12:57:45	<Guest8747>	where ys = if (length xs `mod` 2 /= 0)
12:57:46	<Guest8747>	then drop ((length xs `div` 2) + 1) xs
12:57:46	<Guest8747>	else drop (length xs `div` 2) xs
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12:58:36	<Guest8747>	like this it turns in ([1,2],[4])
12:58:48	<Guest8747>	cant tell why
13:00:09	<Guest8747>	its working nvm
13:00:31	<robosexual>	try this instead of reinventing splitting algorithm: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/src/GHC-List.html#splitAt
13:01:19	<merijn>	Nothing wrong with reinventing algorithms
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13:01:34	<merijn>	The problem is that, as I said before, your code always picks the true branch
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13:01:44	<merijn>	And thus drops 3 items, not 2
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13:02:44	<tdammers>	(technically this isn't even reinventing an algorithm, just reimplementing it)
13:03:03	<merijn>	tdammers: Nothing wrong with that either :p
13:03:13	<tdammers>	indeed
13:03:21	<tdammers>	just need to be aware of the pros and cons
13:03:24	<Guest8747>	halve [1,2,3,4,5] is returning ([1,2],[4,5]) for some reason :(
13:03:32	<merijn>	Guest8747: Same as my previous answer
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13:03:50	<Guest8747>	instead of ([1,2],[3,4,5])
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13:04:16	<Hecate>	:9
13:04:55	<Guest8747>	merijn can u tell why?
13:05:04	<Guest8747>	i thought adding +1 would solve it
13:05:20	<merijn>	What is the if/else supposed to do?
13:06:29	<Guest8747>	if the length is an odd number it would drop length/2 + 1
13:06:38	<merijn>	Well, it doesn't do that
13:06:42	<Guest8747>	if its even just the other half
13:06:50	<merijn>	Because, as stated before, you're not checking if the length is odd
13:07:02	<merijn>	You're checking if the length is less than 2
13:07:44	<Guest8747>	if (length xs `mod` 2 /= 0)
13:08:20	<Guest8747>	how isnt this checking the length being odd
13:08:21	<Guest8747>	?
13:09:02	<merijn>	oh, wait, it's mod now, in one of the original version it was div >.>
13:09:13	<merijn>	Anyway, you drop 1 more
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13:09:20	<merijn>	But you don't take 1 more when that happens
13:09:36	<merijn>	So if it's true, you drop 1 extra, but don't take 1 more
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13:12:19	<Guest8747>	ohhh i was looking at drop the wrong way!
13:12:23	<Guest8747>	ty
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13:27:34	<sneedsfeed>	can this be written as a pure composition? sndMapAccumL a b c = snd $ mapAccumL a b c
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13:28:14	<Franciman>	sneedsfeed: you mean like
13:28:20	<Franciman>	sndMapAccumL a b = snd . mapAccumL a b
13:28:23	<Franciman>	?
13:28:27	<Franciman>	sorry I can't do better :<
13:28:49	<sneedsfeed>	Well I couldnt even figure that out!
13:29:11	<Franciman>	when you have multivalued functions
13:29:18	<sneedsfeed>	but yea it does beg the question still now how better.
13:29:19	<Franciman>	:t (.)
13:29:20	<lambdabot>	(b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
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13:29:33	<Franciman>	if you have multiparam functions
13:29:36	<Franciman>	in this case
13:29:38	<Franciman>	:t mapAccumL
13:29:39	<lambdabot>	Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> (a, t c)
13:29:48	<Franciman>	the b in there becomes
13:29:49	<byorgey>	anything can always be written in "point-free" style, with no parameters, though it's often not worth it.
13:30:00	<Franciman>	a -> t b -> (a, t c)
13:30:20	<Franciman>	wait so you can do
13:30:26	<Franciman>	no nothing
13:30:54	<byorgey>	:t ((.).(.).(.)) snd mapAccumL
13:30:56	<lambdabot>	Traversable t => (a -> b -> (a, c)) -> a -> t b -> t c
13:31:10	<Franciman>	byorgey: you blowed my mind
13:32:15	<sneedsfeed>	byorgey yea but... and i'm a noob I know... but i've always been operating under the assumption that these "not worth it" cases are not situations where the parameter applications come at the end of the function in the same order. its weird to me to have sndMapAccumL a b = snd . mapAccumL a b... why cant I just take off the a and the b???
13:33:14	<sneedsfeed>	and yea i know just type :t and the answer is always right there in the type signature... but i'm not smart enough to just figure everything out like that...
13:33:32	<merijn>	sneedsfeed: Because "snd . mapAccumL a b" is "snd . (mapAccumL a b)"
13:33:34	<byorgey>	sneedsfeed: yeah, if they are not in the same order then that is even worse, then you need some applications of 'flip' in there
13:33:42	<Franciman>	sneedsfeed: i think you can get a tast of what's happening by looking at this:
13:33:44	<Franciman>	:t (.)
13:33:45	<lambdabot>	(b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
13:33:48	<Franciman>	:t (.).(.)
13:33:49	<lambdabot>	(b -> c) -> (a1 -> a2 -> b) -> a1 -> a2 -> c
13:33:52	<merijn>	sneedsfeed: If you remove a b you make it "(snd . mapAccumL) a b"
13:33:56	<byorgey>	sneedsfeed: it's a good question, but yeah, snd . mapAccumL a b is not the same as (snd . mapAccumL) a b
13:34:45	<byorgey>	(f . g x) y = f (g x y), but ((f . g) x) y = (f . g) x y = f (g x) y
13:35:34	<byorgey>	sneedsfeed: you are smart enough, you just don't have enough experience. Big difference. =)
13:35:47	<sneedsfeed>	"snd . mapAccumL a b is not the same as (snd . mapAccumL) a b o" okay that makes sense
13:36:02	<sneedsfeed>	byorgey would that I were 23 coming into this and not 33 :D
13:36:52	<byorgey>	hah, well, we work with what we've got
13:37:49	<merijn>	sneedsfeed: The key insight is that (.) and ($) aren't magical "braces-away" notation, but simply function that take two arguments and what those two arguments are, matters.
13:38:01	<byorgey>	sneedsfeed: you still probably have at least another 40 years of productive Haskell use ahead of you =D
13:38:11	<Franciman>	will my language ever be better than haskell? Surely no, because I am not as smart as people here. Will I have lots of fun doing it? HELL YEAH, sneedsfeed
13:38:14	<Franciman>	so don't worry
13:38:17	<Franciman>	just have fun
13:40:14	<shapr>	I joined a small Haskell chat group, we meet weekly. This week we're going to wander through this new game swarm
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13:42:17	<shapr>	byorgey: glad you published swarm, the source code is fun to read!
13:42:20	<byorgey>	=D
13:43:02	<shapr>	I haven't played it yet, but I joined a text user interface group that's planning to host a whole bunch of TUI games, it might end up on there.
13:43:11	<shapr>	specifically https://bluebird.sh/
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13:44:36	<byorgey>	shapr: cool!
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13:46:17	<byorgey>	shapr: I mean maybe wait a bit until it is more feature-complete, but it'll get there
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14:11:05	<concrete-houses>	anyone here try happstack.com?
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14:49:42	<kuribas>	Franciman: it's possible to make a language better than haskell. It's not easy to make people use it :)
14:50:24	<dminuoso>	Is it easy to make a performant better version of Haskell? That's going to be extremely tricky now.
14:50:37	<kuribas>	dminuoso: maybe using GRIN + LLVM?
14:50:46	<kuribas>	though GRIN is still lacking optimizations.
14:50:47	<dminuoso>	Just tossing GRIN or LLVM at it will not make it magically go fast.
14:51:08	<kuribas>	dminuoso: it helps :)
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14:51:32	<Franciman>	kuribas: not for me :P
14:51:45	<kuribas>	Franciman: what are you doing then?
14:51:52	<Franciman>	I just enjoy writing things
14:51:53	<kuribas>	what kind of language is it?
14:52:01	<Franciman>	now I copied an idea from a langjam winner
14:52:06	<Franciman>	Debug.trace in comments
14:52:06	<kuribas>	Franciman: in that case you don't care about going fast.
14:52:08	<Franciman>	i love the idea
14:52:13	<dminuoso>	kuribas: And LLVM is very incompatible with the type of code that GHC produces, for instance.
14:52:19	<dminuoso>	Which is why the LLVM is regularly slower
14:52:22	<dminuoso>	Which is why the LLVM backend is regularly slower
14:52:24	<Franciman>	kuribas: it's a strict functional language with System F types
14:52:26	<kuribas>	dminuoso: yeah, that's the usecase of GRIN.
14:52:53	<Franciman>	I wanted to add: a more ML like module system, that would help in whishful thinking, i.e. you declar eyour module as wishful
14:53:03	<kuribas>	dminuoso: it's true that GRIN is lacking useful optimizations.
14:53:05	<Franciman>	so you don't have to provide implementations and the compiler can only go as far as typechecking
14:53:11	<Franciman>	then I want to add codata
14:53:17	<Franciman>	as an explicit construction
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14:53:22	<Franciman>	later linear logic, when I learn about it
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14:53:39	<kuribas>	wishful?
14:53:52	<Franciman>	wishful module Vector where
14:54:01	<Franciman>	and you only define its interface, without implementing it
14:54:07	<kuribas>	you mean putting holes for functions?
14:54:10	<Franciman>	in haskell I usually do it by writing functionName = undefined
14:54:11	<dminuoso>	kuribas: My experience with GRIN is fairly limited, so I cant speak much about it.
14:54:12	<Franciman>	yep
14:54:48	<kuribas>	dminuoso: it doesn't do extensive inlining or specialization (yet). But it removes higher order functions and lazyness.
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14:55:01	<kuribas>	dminuoso: so it can be better compiled by a lower level backend, like LLVM.
14:55:35	<dminuoso>	kuribas: Is it comparably fast to the GHC core>simpl>cmm pipeline?
14:55:49	<kuribas>	dminuoso: I have no idea...
14:55:52	<dminuoso>	(not in terms of produced code, but its own execution time)
14:56:16	<kuribas>	fast as in compilation times, or as in runtime performance?
14:56:23	<Franciman>	can you use grinn for an interpreter too? or does it only do compilation?
14:56:26	<dminuoso>	Did someone try to bolt GRIN onto GHC already?
14:56:37	<Franciman>	dminuoso: there is JHC using GRIN iiuc
14:56:47	<dminuoso>	https://github.com/grin-compiler/ghc-grin
14:56:49	<dminuoso>	Interesting
14:57:09	<merijn>	dminuoso: There's a guy working on it
14:57:18	<merijn>	Franciman: Use typed holes!
14:57:25	<merijn>	Franciman: Undefined is strictly inferior
14:57:51	<dminuoso>	GRIN seems like a really cool idea then. :)
14:57:54	<merijn>	"functionName = _"
14:58:00	<Franciman>	merijn: oh cool
14:58:14	<Franciman>	do I have to put some extension on?
14:58:17	<merijn>	No
14:58:24	<Franciman>	n-nice, thank you!
14:58:26	<Franciman>	TIL
14:58:34	<dminuoso>	GRIN kind of reminds me of the Truffle Language Implementation framework.
14:58:45	<merijn>	Franciman: Typed holes produce an error saying "found typed hole of type: Type that should go there"
14:59:11	<Franciman>	this may be better than my wishful moduels
14:59:14	<Franciman>	nice!
14:59:15	<merijn>	Franciman: There's -fdefer-typed-holes" which turns the error into a warning, which means you can run the code (like you could with undefined)
14:59:35	<Franciman>	I see
14:59:36	<Franciman>	useful
14:59:44	<merijn>	But unlike "undefined" you can delete -fdefer-typed-holes from your GHC flags and get a compile error if you forgot any :p
14:59:57	<Franciman>	yaaap! it's really nice, thanks merijn
15:00:02	<merijn>	With undefined you gotta hope you remember to implement all them :p
15:00:10	<tomsmeding>	merijn: HLS feedback seems to take a little longer to appear in my editor whenever there's a typed hole in the file. It feels like GHC proceeds until a later stage of compilation than normal or something, due to which it takes longer, but this is just a feeling, not based on anything. Do you have any idea why this happens?
15:00:11	<lortabac>	Franciman: similarly, there is also an extension to enable partial type signatures, when you want to put holes in types
15:00:40	<merijn>	tomsmeding: longer than compared to what?
15:00:45	<lortabac>	PartialTypeSignatures
15:01:00	<tomsmeding>	compared to if there are no typed holes, but only other type errors
15:01:06	<Franciman>	ty lortabac
15:01:19	<tomsmeding>	it's not a problem or anything, just seems weird to me
15:02:01	<tomsmeding>	hm can't really reproduce it now, but it was certainly there earlier (on a slower machine, maybe that's the reason)
15:02:17	<lortabac>	tomsmeding: I guess it takes time because it looks for possible matches
15:02:24	<tomsmeding>	oooooooo yes
15:02:29	<tomsmeding>	that makes total sense
15:02:30	<merijn>	tomsmeding: I'm not up to date on the current implementation :)
15:02:38	<tomsmeding>	lortabac++
15:02:38	<merijn>	oh, you can disable the possible matches
15:03:22	<merijn>	I'm just shilling typed holes, because I don't want my effort to get -fdefer-typed-holes to go to waste :p
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15:03:39	<tomsmeding>	I know :p
15:04:00	<tomsmeding>	but that makes you the typed holes man for me in this channel
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15:04:53	<shapr>	tritlo wrote some nice papers on typed holes
15:05:11	<shapr>	at least, I think that's the right person
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15:29:39	<zzz>	what's the default fixity for infix data constructors?
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15:30:17	<merijn>	infixl 9
15:30:27	<merijn>	Or rather, that's the default fixity, period :p
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15:30:33	<cigsender>	pretty sure everything defaults to infixl 9, like merijn said
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15:31:07	<zzz>	ok just checking
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15:40:30	<tomsmeding>	in an error message stating that a particular constraint 'C a' cannot be satisfied, if applicable, ghc says that one could fix the error by adding that constraint in the GADT that you're matching, or somewhere else. But this type variable 'a' is derived from some random type signature somewhere, which is sometimes a completely different one than it tells you to put the constraint on
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15:41:03	<tomsmeding>	so you have like 'data T b where Constr :: Bool -> T Int', and it tells you to add 'C a' to the context of Constr
15:41:08	<tomsmeding>	like, that ain't going to work, ghc :p
15:41:20	<geekosaur>	ghc's suggestions are usually lousy in my experience
15:41:29	<tomsmeding>	in general ghc seems to confuse type variable names in error messages all over the place
15:41:55	<geekosaur>	like it will tell you to enable some extension iunstead of fixing the realproblem
15:41:57	<tomsmeding>	in fact the suggestion is completely valid in this case, and even what I wanted to do, but for the incorrect variable name :p
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15:44:24	<zzz>	it ain't easy being ghc
15:44:28	<monochrom>	I too confuse type variables between parametric polymorphism, GADTs, and type families. :)
15:45:37	<tomsmeding>	it definitely ain't easy being ghc
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15:56:54	<ggVGc>	I think we might be due a GHC fork with an extension purge
15:57:05	<ggVGc>	and get rid of all the ones that turned out not super great ideas
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15:58:57	<ProofTechnique>	Also with Alexis King's delimited continuations work so I can finally use `eff` 🥺
16:00:02	<monochrom>	Which extensions actually turned out to be not super great ideas?
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16:00:23	<c_wraith>	PolymorphicComponents. :P
16:00:45	<monochrom>	Yeah that's superseded by RankNTypes, no?
16:01:12	<c_wraith>	yeah. They're just different names for the same thing now
16:01:24	<monochrom>	I am going for "all of them are already obsoleted or replaced".
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16:02:55	<ggVGc>	I don't have concrete suggestions right now... But, I'm sure I've read quite a lot about some extensions not working well with others, and we have some tackling quite similar issues from different angles, right?
16:03:06	<monochrom>	i.e., a cry for "fork GHC to purge them" is basically vacuous.
16:03:25	<ggVGc>	I wasn't being entirely serious :)
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16:17:11	<dolio>	PolymorphicComponents came after RankNTypes, I think, as a way to have certain data types without turning on the whole extended type system.
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16:18:08	<geekosaur>	iirc it came after Rank2Types; RankNTypes came later and subsumed Rank2Types
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16:18:36	<geekosaur>	and PolymorphicComponents
16:18:50	<c_wraith>	but these days Rank2Types and PolymorphicComponents both just enable RankNTypes
16:19:01	<geekosaur>	right
16:19:14	<dolio>	Ah.
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16:20:13	<dolio>	It seems kind of pointless to just remove another name for the same extension. It will just break programs.
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17:09:26	<kuribas>	is using the `Ap` Monoid fancy haskell?
17:09:49	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	fancy haskell is whatever i don't know
17:09:51	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	so yes
17:10:03	<kuribas>	I have "Validation (ann, Text) (DeviceTables ann -> DeviceTables ann)"
17:10:26	<kuribas>	if I use Endo and Ap, I can more easily compose them.
17:10:41	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	I was being facetious
17:10:57	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	there is no definition of "fancy haskell" that makes sense
17:11:15	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	if it makes your code better then it's probably good
17:11:24	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	it it makes your code worse then it's probably bad
17:11:36	<kuribas>	it makes it better if you know what Ap and Endo do...
17:11:56	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	I looked it up just now, seems reasonable to me
17:12:03	<kuribas>	ok, thanks :)
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17:12:52	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	IME when people talk about "fancy haskell" it involves type-level programming, lens, etc
17:13:04	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	but again, there is no consistent definition
17:13:10	<kuribas>	lens also :-(
17:13:20	<kuribas>	I think basic lenses should be ok.
17:13:35	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	but that's the thing, sometimes lenses are simpler than the alternative
17:13:38	<awpr>	hmm, I need to delete my own reimplementation of `Ap`. didn't know that existed in `base`
17:13:39	<kuribas>	like view, set, over
17:13:53	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	I wrote some code to update JSON without lenses that is incredibly ugly
17:13:53	<monochrom>	:)
17:14:24	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	so it might actually be an improvement to rewrite that
17:14:31	<kuribas>	I've found the more fancy lenses are easy to avoid.
17:15:13	<kuribas>	For example (view (#field % to f)) => (f . view #field)
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17:16:25	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	I don't have a good grasp of lenses but I believe you
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17:16:54	<awpr>	this is at least vaguely on-topic: I don't think you need to lose (.) composition to have a sensible OverloadedLabels instance for optics
17:17:34	<awpr>	the instance head can just be `OpticWrapper p f a b -> OpticWrapper p f s t`
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17:18:09	<kuribas>	awpr: for optics the composition operator is `%`
17:18:16	<awpr>	that's what I was responding to
17:18:29	<kuribas>	You don't loose it, it's just a different operator
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17:18:45	<awpr>	"(.) composition" is different from "any form of composition"
17:18:56	<awpr>	I mean literally the ability to use (.) for composition
17:19:07	<kuribas>	awpr: are you refering to Control.Category?
17:19:17	<awpr>	no, literally (Prelude..)
17:19:32	<kuribas>	in that case, not using (.) is a good thing.
17:19:42	<awpr>	I don't agree with that
17:20:00	<kuribas>	because Optics are a concept, a function is an implementation detail.
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17:20:13	<kuribas>	you don't want to leak implementation into your API.
17:20:35	<kuribas>	(.) for lenses is quite confusing.
17:21:07	<dminuoso>	awpr: The point of using % rather than . has nothing to do with not being able to.
17:21:11	<awpr>	shrug it doesn't confuse me. it's not objectively confusing
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17:22:00	<dminuoso>	awpr: It's about being able to generate legible diagnostics at composition time, rather than deferring illegible diagnostics to consumption time.
17:22:20	<dminuoso>	(%) :: forall k l m is js ks s t u v a b . (JoinKinds k l m, AppendIndices is js ks) => Optic k is s t u v -> Optic l js u v a b -> Optic m ks s t a b
17:22:31	<dminuoso>	So the magic juice is JoinKinds and AppendIndices
17:23:07	<awpr>	yeah, I guess that makes sense. I still prefer `.` and error messages relating to what's actually going on, myself
17:24:26	<dminuoso>	Me personally I prefer if GHC produces a type error that says "A Getter cannot be composed with a Setter", rather than being able to satisfy some cryptic constraints.
17:24:40	<dminuoso>	I dont need to understand what profunctor typeclasses are used
17:24:57	<awpr>	yeah, I'm the opposite. different libraries for different preferences, I guess
17:25:01	<dminuoso>	Absolutely. :)
17:26:13	<dminuoso>	It's also quite possibly relating to the fact that if you're already familiar with the involved constraints, you might not care much.
17:26:27	<dminuoso>	For a new user who really doesn't care about the implementation, it might be different.
17:27:04	<dminuoso>	I know some do think that being forced to understand the inner workings is preferrable, but as long as the optics involved have clear semantics, is that really necessary?
17:27:11	<dminuoso>	But this is definitely personal preference
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17:27:22	<awpr>	yeah, definitely curated error messages are more newcomer-friendly
17:27:29	<monochrom>	I haven't used lens and optics, but I have a related philosophy comparing C++ operator overloading and Haskell type classes.
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17:28:38	<awpr>	part of the downside to me though is that it turns the internally-consistent mechanism into what looks like an ad-hoc set of specific rules
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17:28:59	<dminuoso>	awpr: these ad-hoc rules are formalized though.
17:29:22	<dminuoso>	awpr: In lens you simply have https://i.imgur.com/ALlbPRa.png
17:29:24	<awpr>	and for me it's easier to internalize the profunctor workings than to memorize the table of composition rules
17:29:41	<dminuoso>	So (%) isnt some adhoc nonsense, it's just an implementation of that very hierarchy. :)
17:29:49	<dminuoso>	(or equivalent for profunctors)
17:29:51	<monochrom>	If you make the mistake of using a polymorphic function that needs (+) on a type, say T, that doesn't support (+), ...
17:29:58	<sshine>	as long as they provide an ergonomic, internally-consistent DSL, I don't mind that some parts are opaque. in fact, I prefer it, until I suddenly find that I don't. I guess you always reach a point where you wanna knock down a wall.
17:30:18	<awpr>	right, I'm not saying it _is_ ad-hoc, just that if you're approaching from a new learner perspective, it looks ad-hoc and nobody ever lets you see the underlying principle
17:30:23	<dminuoso>	awpr: Perhabs the ideal library would be backpack driven, such that you could pick your flavour.
17:30:33	<monochrom>	C++ be like "at line 1023 in the polymorphic function, it uses (+), which is not supported"
17:30:42	<dminuoso>	Assuming we had a working and documented backpack.
17:30:46	<monochrom>	Haskell be like "T is not an instance of Num".
17:31:08	<dminuoso>	Such that some users could use say `optics` in the raw profunctor style, and others could use it in the newtype style.
17:31:17	<monochrom>	I prefer the Haskell way. It's clearly more modular. Why do I need to know that it's line 1023 in the function I'm calling.
17:31:55	<awpr>	that would be pretty nice. I prefer the profunctor-only presentation over the weird hybrid van laarhoven + profunctors thing of `lens`, so I think a "veil-lifted" `optics` might be my ideal choice
17:33:14	<awpr>	C++ concepts have been around for ... looks at standardization progress ...oh.
17:33:15	<dminuoso>	awpr: Out of curiosity, what do you find to be "in the way" or "annoying" with the newtype style?
17:33:35	<monochrom>	C++ concept is very recent.
17:33:43	<dminuoso>	So far I haven't found anything that was arbitrarily constrained by it, everything that seems legal is also supported/allowed by optics.
17:34:01	<dminuoso>	With some minor bits like being unable to view through a traversal (which lens supports), that I absolutely loathe.
17:34:16	<dminuoso>	Oh that was poorly phrased. I absolutely loathe that lens does this.
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17:34:22	<dminuoso>	but that too is personal opinion
17:34:22	<awpr>	I don't have any actual experience with `optics`, it's just a philosophical preference
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17:34:32	<awpr>	I'm sure it works great in practice
17:35:14	<dminuoso>	awpr: If that's even a philosophical preference, shouldn't we just abandon data and newtype entirely?
17:35:32	<dminuoso>	Or is there a limit to that philosophy?
17:36:28	<dminuoso>	In my experience, hiding implementation details behind a veil that you cant accidentally pierce is generally a good thing.
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17:36:51	<awpr>	it's specific to optics: IMO there isn't a need for that to be a protected abstraction, because as far as I'm concerned the underlying mechanism is a clean enough thing to merit having a library for
17:37:34	<dminuoso>	Yeah, I guess I can sympathize with that.
17:37:59	<dminuoso>	profunctor optics is incredibly interesting, it has a certain mathematical beauty and it arises just naturally
17:38:14	<awpr>	I guess the laws for the various optic types contradict that position, though. I've often wanted to export "a thing that has the type of a lens but isn't a lens", which doesn't fit into the un-newtyped view very well
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17:38:43	<awpr>	like, it is a bit weird that `lens` imposes laws on types that exist independently of the `lens` package
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17:38:55	<awpr>	(modulo type aliases)
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17:39:33	<c_wraith>	optics lets you create unlawful lenses
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17:40:24	<awpr>	hmm, I suppose that's a pragmatic choice. but it doesn't really change the situation
17:40:42	<dminuoso>	Yeah I think this is a bit orthogonal, c_wraith.
17:40:45	<awpr>	it's not that it's /possible/ to break the laws, it's that breaking the laws is a no-op
17:41:41	<awpr>	as far as `lens` and GHC's type checker are concerned, my `forall f. Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t` that doesn't claim to uphold the lens laws /is/ a `Lens`, even though I didn't say it was
17:42:00	<dminuoso>	awpr: I just dont see what real value you gain by having these details exposed. In my experience, it does somewhat frequently (depending your level of expertise and complexity of code) generate horrible to decipher diagnostics.
17:42:34	<c_wraith>	well, trivially, you gain the ability to do things the library authors did not divine that you'd need
17:42:41	<dminuoso>	About the only thing I can think of is that (.) is visually less annoying than (%), but emacs + font locking can address that if its a real issue...
17:43:16	<dminuoso>	c_wraith: But that's not true. The Optic data constructor is exported.
17:43:29	<dminuoso>	So you can break optics open or repackage them to construct anything of your chosing.
17:43:43	<dminuoso>	The entire set of possible compositions is already built
17:43:56	<awpr>	`view` being polymorphic over `Traversal`s would be one example of that. it's a fair point that it's error-prone, but I prefer less hand-holding over more
17:44:19	<c_wraith>	I don't see any way to use optics combinators with new things that aren't already in the library
17:44:24	<dminuoso>	awpr: you can still use foldOf mmm.
17:44:37	<awpr>	I'm not trying to convince anyone to ditch `optics`, just explaining my personal preference
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17:44:52	<dminuoso>	You just have to be explicit here, with `view` the behavior is completely hidden and relies on you ambiently knowing what a given composition even is
17:44:56	<dminuoso>	Absolutely!
17:45:09	<dminuoso>	Im not convincing you anyway, I really want to understand your position.
17:45:20	<awpr>	totally valid to prefer `optics`, too, and perhaps even a truly better choice for codebases that frequently get newcomers
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17:46:25	<maerwald>	I don't think this is about newcomers
17:46:57	<awpr>	I feel the same way as with `instance Foldable ((,) a)`: it's a perfectly valid thing to have and use, and removing it is only desirable inasmuch as you want the compiler to second-guess you when you might have unintentionally used it
17:47:24	<dminuoso>	awpr: The difference with that instance though, is that it's very easy to see that the argument to some fold happens to be a tuple.,
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17:47:35	<awpr>	okay, s/newcomers/non-ivory-tower-elitists/ :)
17:47:44	<dminuoso>	awpr: but realizing that your composition is suddenly no longer a lens but an (affine) traversal because there's a prism you didnt quite see... that's very hard
17:47:51	<dminuoso>	because as long as there's a monoid instance, it will just work
17:47:54	<maerwald>	awpr: I still don't understand
17:48:46	<maerwald>	optics isn't a watered down version of lens for newcomers or noobs
17:48:52	<dminuoso>	awpr: So with `view` you dont readily know whether this will fold a traversal, or view a singular point. That's my take on it.
17:48:55	<maerwald>	it's a drop-in replacement
17:49:12	<dminuoso>	maerwald: I dont think its their position that optics is for newcomers.
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17:49:22	<awpr>	no, but it adds complexity for the sake of better error messages, and I don't find that necessary for my own preferences
17:49:34	<maerwald>	sure
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17:49:50	<awpr>	so, if it's just me working on something, I'd rather have an un-newtyped form
17:49:54	<maerwald>	but your preferences have little to do with newcomers
17:50:06	<dminuoso>	awpr: to be fair, optics does have its problems. at times the type machinery for the diagnostics fails, and I get truly cryptic errors involving the helper typefamilies that are designed to help me.
17:50:19	<dminuoso>	So yeah, rarely diagnostics get tons worse
17:50:48	<maerwald>	the main reason I use optics is because `view` is stricter and the lens Monoid constraint caused a pretty bad production bug for me
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17:51:16	<awpr>	must just be an issue of poor wording. I just meant to acknowledge that for codebases with multiple contributors who aren't me or who don't share my admittedly eccentric preference, it's probably better to just use `optics`
17:51:17	<dminuoso>	maerwald: My thought of, you can easily just use foldOf, and make the monoid folding an explicit choice!
17:52:14	<dminuoso>	awpr: But perhaps you've already hilighted the core essence of what Im trying to understand.
17:52:19	<awpr>	hmm. "this caused a real bug" is usually a convincing argument for me
17:52:27	<dminuoso>	Your preference is based on a personal philosophical view
17:52:45	<maerwald>	my coding preferences are mainly shaped by PTSD experiences
17:53:05	<awpr>	er, "multiple contributors who aren't me" <- not to suggest there are multiple of me
17:53:47	<awpr>	notwithstanding any Champaign meteorologist, UK storm photographer, or former UK drug lord who might share my name
17:53:50	<dminuoso>	My personal story behind optics is, I never used lens becaue I could never translate these magical constraint compositions into what type of optic they were. And I like putting things like optics into bindings, but that conflicted with my other rule of annotating almost every binding.
17:54:08	<dminuoso>	And `optics` allowed me to do this, so `optics` is when I started using this DSL. :P
17:55:43	<maerwald>	I still haven't found a real use case for optics... it's more like convenience, being cool or having too much time on your hands. If you don't use them a lot, the intelectual complexity penalty isn't worth it most of the time
17:55:53	<maerwald>	because I can't understand then lens code I wrote a couple months ago
17:56:03	<dminuoso>	maerwald: yeah, we only use them extensively in one project
17:56:08	<geekosaur>	same here
17:56:09	<dminuoso>	but we really go bold with optics in that one. :)
17:56:35	<geekosaur>	every so often I look lens/optics over again and decide I don't really have a use for them yet
17:56:54	<awpr>	for me the only highly compelling use case is compositions of traversals, especially over things that don't fit the kind signature of `Traversable`
17:57:05	<c_wraith>	Man, optics really doesn't support most of the things I do with lenses. (trivial data access is boring. concise expression of complex data access is where it's at)
17:57:16	<c_wraith>	optics doesn't even have universeOf. :(
17:58:10	<c_wraith>	err. cosmosOf is the one I was thinking of. But optics doesn't have that, either
17:59:00	<dminuoso>	Mmm, why was I thinking optics had Plated
18:00:11	<ProofTechnique>	My main use of optics lately has been dealing with responses from really terribly designed GraphQL schemas. Nested optional data is _gross_
18:00:32	<dminuoso>	c_wraith: In some way this actually hilights how lenses/optics are sometimes used really well. You have this particular usage pattern you can best describe with this style.
18:00:38	<dminuoso>	And nothing else comes close.
18:00:51	<c_wraith>	yeah, that's true
18:03:15	<dminuoso>	https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/38033cec207a51cf191fad8976e69a40
18:03:27	<dminuoso>	This is the kind of pattern we use in our sdn compiler very often
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22:25:39	<Axman6>	dminuoso: what's the type of summing there?
22:26:21	<Axman6>	dminuoso: ... also keen to hear more about the SDN thing!
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23:08:15	<lbseale>	Does anyone have a recommendation for a library for deriving Arbitrary for a record type? All I have found is this: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/derive
23:09:07	<Axman6>	Can't it be done for any Generic?
23:09:10	<Morrow>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/generic-arbitrary ?
23:09:52	<Axman6>	ah - "There is no generic arbitrary implementation included because we don't know how to make a high-quality one. If you want one, consider using the testing-feat or generic-random packages."
23:10:04	<Axman6>	from the docs for Arbitrary
23:11:19	<byorgey>	sadly, testing-feat seems unmaintained and doesn't build with latest GHCs
23:11:23	<byorgey>	you can also try https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dragen
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23:12:52	<lbseale>	These are all good, thanks
23:12:59	<dmj`>	I think people usually avoid Generic Arbitrary because they don't implement the shrinking properly for lists and other recursive data types. You need to shrink at least logarithmically to keep your program from hanging during generation.
23:14:29	<lbseale>	maybe I should back up and ask a broader question: Our program takes a huge record with many fields of input, we were hoping to just generate this randomly and see if it works, is this a good idea?
23:17:03	<dmj`>	lbseale: It depends, is your program expected to work for all random combinations of input? If not, you can get bespoke with how you generate the data, and only generate random cases that are expected.
23:17:04	<geekosaur>	huge record? sounds like you would either have a very slow thorough test or a fast inadequate one
23:17:28	<geekosaur>	but that depends on how random the randomness has to be
23:18:47	<lbseale>	ok these are good questions, it's not expected to work for all random combinations of input
23:19:12	<lbseale>	it might be good to make sure that it doesn't do something unexpected if it got a completely random input, but that's not my greatest concern
23:19:42	<lbseale>	so we should focus on writing our own `arbitrary` that generates random but reasonable input
23:20:13	<lbseale>	geekosaur: you mean slow because it would take a long time to generate truly random data for every field of input?
23:20:31	<geekosaur>	to test every possible combination across all fields
23:20:42	<geekosaur>	even with shrinking
23:20:59	<lbseale>	yeah, doing that is unreasonable
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23:43:13	<monochrom>	My impression is that the best known technique for this is fuzzing, and it is meant to run for hours.
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23:45:55	<monochrom>	But regarding a tree-like ADT and so generating random trees, it is very easy to make a very dumb mistake, I made it once.
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23:46:40	<monochrom>	I had a binary tree type. So I went "how about 0.5 chance leaf, 0.5 chance branch-and-recurse".
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23:47:16	<monochrom>	It ran for a long time building a very large tree. Actually I didn't wait for it to stop.
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23:48:05	<monochrom>	Someone here pointed out the obvious: So at every node, the expected number of children is 1?
23:48:54	<monochrom>	That explains why the algorithm is trying to generate an infinite tree.
23:49:01	<lbseale>	XD
23:49:34	<monochrom>	That incident inspired me to take a look at a few papers and learn some related math.
23:49:52	<awpr>	it's interesting that it has a decent chance of fizzling out right away, but once it gets going, it's probably not going to terminate
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23:52:05	<monochrom>	For example, if you have decided "p chance of leaf, 1-p chance of branch-and-recurse", there is a formula about expected total size, and the theory involves some beautiful combinatoric techniques such as generating functions.
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23:53:37	<monochrom>	(And of course you invert that formula to find out: If you want an expected number of 100 nodes, what should p be.)
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23:54:44	<awpr>	something like p/2^(k*depth) to branch would reign in the exponential growth
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23:55:37	<monochrom>	And then there is a series of papers investigating: Suppose you use that algorithm plus this: In case you end up with a tree too large/small, you throw it away and try again. How many times will you have to try?
23:56:02	<monochrom>	And then the proof wanders into complex analysis land.
23:56:14	<monochrom>	This can be a very deep rabbit hole.
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All times are in UTC on 2021-10-06.