Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2021-10-07 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:06:05 <monochrom> If you want this rabbit hole, the search term is "Boltzmann sampler"
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00:08:58 <monochrom> I think some of the early contributors of quickcheck and Arbitrary tried to dive into that literature too, precisely because they hoped to give you a derive-Generic solution to user-defined ADTs.
00:09:28 <Guest82> I asked here earlier today about Megaparsec not accepting '\/' in charLiteral and it turned out this is according to the haskell report of 2010
00:10:59 <Guest82> but any parser primitives I put my hands on reference readLitChar in Data.Char. Even anySingle
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00:12:53 <Guest82> Sorry but I reaaally don't see where to go from here, I have the general idea (thanks to a kind person here) of using lookAhead to check the char after `\` but that's about it
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00:15:30 <monochrom> So don't use charLiteral?
00:16:20 <Guest82> monochrom: umm but what do I replace it with? I can't even read the backslashes in a "raw way" to handle them how I need
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00:18:00 <monochrom> anySingle can. char '\\' can.
00:18:34 <awpr> maybe there's a lexer in the mix that's already rejecting the escapes before the "real" parser sees them?
00:18:46 <monochrom> anySingleBut '\\' can accept a non-\ character, in case you're also looking for somthing to <|> with.
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00:23:50 <Guest82> monochrom: so I would for example keep parsing with anySingleBut '\\' and fallback to getting my escape sequences if that fails?
00:24:40 <monochrom> Or keep parsing with char '\\' and fall back to getting non-escape sequences if that fails
00:25:22 <monochrom> Or keep parsing with anySingle and have an if-then-else
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00:25:55 <monochrom> Or roll your own charLiteral
00:26:24 <Guest82> in that case I would need to lookAhead of '\\' to make sure there is actually a valid escape char, won't I?
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00:26:43 <monochrom> Depends on the rest of your code.
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00:28:01 <awpr> if there's an invalid escape char, should it try consuming the backslash as something other than an escape, or should it be an error?
00:28:11 <monochrom> I have never needed lookAhead.
00:28:34 <monochrom> Including those cases when someone thinks they need lookAhead.
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00:29:23 <monochrom> But the overall organization of the parser has to be done to centre around <|> rather than centre around lookAhead.
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00:29:50 <monochrom> That is, following a carefully designed grammar.
00:30:02 <monochrom> Have you ever written down your grammar somewhere?
00:30:27 <Guest82> Well my parser has no lookAhead up until now. I only have choice and optional
00:30:55 <Guest82> monochrom: https://github.com/kdl-org/kdl/blob/main/SPEC.md#full-grammar
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00:31:29 <monochrom> I think every question I've seen on this channel that resulted in lookAhead happens to be also a case of someone pulling their parser code out of the blue.
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00:32:13 <awpr> doesn't look like that string literal grammar needs lookahead: it doesn't accept backslashes except as the start of an escape
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00:33:31 <awpr> um, unless the second backslash in `character := '\' escape | [^\"]` is escaping the quote
00:34:04 <monochrom> Looks like simply character = (char '\' >> escape) <|> noneOf "\\\"" and since they don't have a common prefix, you don't even need "try".
00:34:48 <monochrom> I think ^ says \ is \ itself :)
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00:35:03 <awpr> yeah, I think so, too. just not really sure
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00:36:33 <monochrom> escape = oneOf "\"\\/bfnrt" <|> (string "u{" >> ...)
00:36:43 <monochrom> or whatever "string" is called in megaparsec.
00:37:20 <Guest82> what is the (string "u{" >> ...) part for?
00:37:33 <monochrom> escape := ["\\/bfnrt] | 'u{' hex-digit{1, 6} '}' You saw that?
00:37:39 <c_wraith> if that's perlish, [^\"] is "any character except backslash or double-quote"
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00:38:08 <awpr> "perlish", is that like "churlish"?
00:38:26 <c_wraith> that sounds like a trap. :P
00:38:34 <monochrom> How this very readily directly-codable grammar led to the conclusion of charLiteral, I don't want to know.
00:38:45 <Guest82> monochrom: oh I recall now. I had so much trouble with bfnrt that I forgot about the unicode escapes haha
00:39:55 <Guest82> monochrom: you mean why I chose charLiteral instead of writing it myself? I had no idea how to use megaparsec
00:40:09 <monochrom> So don't use megaparsec?
00:40:40 <Guest82> well I wanted to learn as I also can't use anything else :^)
00:40:47 <monochrom> "Hi I need to write a webapp, so I decided arbitrarily to write it in javascript, except I don't know how to write in javascript"
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00:41:30 <Guest82> Fair enough, thanks for the useful descriptions
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00:43:36 <Guest82> I didn't know you could write things so directly like this
00:44:07 <Guest82> the grammar translates almost perfectly
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00:47:45 <libertyprime> just for posterity: i figured out the source of my problems with hls unable to find imports. i had to make a simple hie.yaml that pointed to cabal. my breadcrumb trail started at simply running haskell-language-server-wrapper in my project directory.
00:48:15 <libertyprime> but now that i've done that, hls is working brilliantly.
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00:57:27 <abarbu> Am I doing something wrong or does doing a nix-build with a buildStackProject derivation never hit cachix?
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01:23:28 <dsal> I use haskell.nix and have an OK time with cachix.
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05:55:51 <dminuoso> Axman6: summing :: (Is k A_Fold, Is l A_Fold) => Optic' k is s a -> Optic' l js s a -> Fold s a
05:56:38 <dminuoso> In lens you can simply use <> to achieve the same, which is yet another of those "you have to be a wizard to recognize and know about this interface". :p
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08:10:43 <ocramz> hullo o/
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08:21:29 <libertyprime> has anyone here tried compiling cardano-node with default.nix? Just wondering because I have started nix-build but several hours and several 10s of GBs later haskell is still compiling the project. *pulling hair out*
08:21:40 <maerwald> libertyprime: use cabal
08:21:42 <maerwald> trash nix
08:21:50 <maerwald> cardano-node is developed via cabal
08:21:58 <maerwald> deployment/CI is nix
08:22:43 <maerwald> or set up the IOHK nix cache
08:22:50 <libertyprime> ... *cries*. shouldve done that
08:23:04 <maerwald> https://github.com/input-output-hk/cardano-node/blob/master/doc/getting-started/building-the-node-using-nix.md/#iohk-binary-cache
08:25:00 <libertyprime> maerwald: thank you so much
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08:25:29 <maerwald> but I don't see why you'd want to download the size of 3 operating systems instead of just using cabal
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08:26:32 <libertyprime> hmm. indeed... i actually do want to use cabal. i just dont want to admit im falling for the sunken costs fallacy
08:28:08 <libertyprime> hmm. since when does cabal do projects
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08:28:18 <maerwald> a while
08:28:22 <merijn> libertyprime: Since roughly 2015-2016? :p
08:28:34 <merijn> Which is when I started using the development release to use those :p
08:28:47 <libertyprime> sheet. i see
08:29:23 <merijn> Realistically "production" release of it probably 2017-2018ish
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08:29:56 <libertyprime> im the guy who invested in cardano in 2017 and sold when it went lower. also the guy who has been using stack for the last couple years which i think is responsible for making my haskell learning a living hell
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08:31:34 <kuribas> libertyprime: what do you not like about stack?
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08:33:12 <libertyprime> http://ix.io/3B50
08:33:20 <libertyprime> here's my stack wrapper script
08:34:02 <libertyprime> i put fork bomb protection in it among other things. i may be responsible since i tried to make stack do things i probably shouldnt have
08:34:26 <libertyprime> theres something in there about globalexec too
08:34:40 <libertyprime> ah yeah, thats was kinda annoyin
08:35:00 <libertyprime> say i want to run a ghci or ghcid or ghcide inside a project
08:35:20 <libertyprime> or outside. idk, as a beginner im very confused when things continually cant compile
08:35:30 <libertyprime> though i am probably responsible for messing around
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08:38:13 <libertyprime> ther's also a note in there "Stack doesn't usually return output unless something changes". as a beginner that confused me
08:38:33 <libertyprime> something on stderr saying, "all is well", would probably alleviate that confusion.
08:38:48 <libertyprime> i know it's technically UNIXy correct to do nothing
08:41:00 <libertyprime> all said and done stack is a million times better than npm
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08:41:54 <libertyprime> oh there's also a note in the script about finding a particular binary, whcih is installed in a local project
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08:41:58 <libertyprime> that was difficult to work out, too
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08:43:48 <dminuoso> libertyprime: To build cardano-node with nix, you *really* should use the supplied binary cache.
08:44:56 <dminuoso> It's quite a lengthy experience, otherwise.
08:45:36 <libertyprime> lol. yes. after several hours -- surely 6 hours or something, i cancelled it and it took about 5 mins to compile with cabal just then
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08:46:15 <dminuoso> libertyprime: The thing with nix is, without binary caches, this will bootstrap everything including say GHC.
08:46:21 <libertyprime> they really should have a message or something, which says -- this will take a hell of a long time
08:46:34 <libertyprime> *just use cabal, seriously*
08:46:56 <dminuoso> And the entirety of the transitive dependency tree, not just the haskell packages.
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08:47:11 <maerwald> nix is unergonomic
08:47:16 <dminuoso> Think the default installations use the regular cachix, but that wont have everything that is dependend upon in the iohk packages
08:47:38 <dminuoso> libertyprime: Well, there is a note saying that using a binary cache will significant improve the speed... :P
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08:49:21 <merijn> Sometimes I think "I should use Nix", then I look at it for 10s and come to my senses :p
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08:50:14 <maerwald> merijn: but you could invest several years in pain and then it becomes easier
08:50:43 <dminuoso> I invested about a year, and yeah, after that year nix has become a wonderful tool.
08:50:52 <dminuoso> Even though I hate parts of it, nixos has made our life much much easier.
08:51:00 <libertyprime> merijn: all u need is cardano and a language model, i think. that can be the entire computing experience, maybe
08:51:23 <maerwald> investing 1 year in a tool is a LOT... and nix in no way is able to pay off one year of investment
08:51:33 <dminuoso> Well, it wasnt a year full time.
08:52:20 <maerwald> investment/gain ratio just isn't there
08:52:24 <dminuoso> maerwald: For infrastructure management, I think its worth it. You'd spend just as much time with ansible, chef, puppet, kubernetes, or anything else that might utilize to get manage or deploy infrastructure.
08:52:47 <maerwald> I happily removed nix from infrastructure before in a company and everything was more smooth.
08:52:59 <dminuoso> Just nix or nixos?
08:53:08 <maerwald> nix and nixops
08:53:19 <dminuoso> We're very happy with nixos so far for deploying large scale clusters
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08:54:13 <maerwald> if you control the deployment, there's very little point in nix
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08:54:35 <dminuoso> We get to fully declaratively describe our serers *shrugs*
08:54:36 <maerwald> the only real advantage of nix is that you can share configuration, without sharing binaries or environment
08:54:55 <maerwald> if you control the deployment, you don't need to share configuration
08:54:58 <maerwald> you control everything anyway
08:55:03 <dminuoso> maerwald: by the way, much of the long time was due to not having some expert that was able to mentor me. We have 2 folks that Im guiding, and they rapidly pick up nix/nixos.
08:55:09 <dminuoso> They're not taking a year. :)
08:55:28 <dminuoso> maerwald: I dont quite understand the statement wrt to "controlling the deployment"
08:55:29 <maerwald> sure, you can also use gentoo for your deployments or anything else and it might be awesome
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08:55:43 <dminuoso> Im not talking about deploying a package, but deploying the entire machine
08:56:03 <maerwald> dminuoso: well, in some cases, you're not able to actually deploy yourself, so someone else either needs instructions or a configuration that's reproducible
08:56:09 <maerwald> in that case, nix has *some* benefit
08:56:14 <maerwald> yes, me too
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08:56:18 <dminuoso> Between the ssh configuration, firewall configuration, motd on login, lets encrypt with either DNS-01 or HTTP-01 challenge, the software that runs on it, the configuration..
08:56:29 <maerwald> that can also be done reproducibly without nix
08:56:36 <maerwald> with much less complexity
08:56:38 <dminuoso> Reproducibly? How?
08:56:46 <maerwald> e.g. with gentoo :)
08:57:04 <dminuoso> Gentoo has fully declarative configuration management?
08:57:16 <maerwald> no, but that has nothing to do with "reproducibly"
08:57:29 <dminuoso> What does "reproducibly" even mean?
08:57:37 <dminuoso> I have some config snippet that configures SSH a particular way.
08:57:43 <dminuoso> How do you distribute this bit onto your entire server fleet?
08:57:47 <dminuoso> Assuming they all run gentoo
08:57:49 <maerwald> reproducibly means you can deploy one gentoo machine like another
08:57:53 <maerwald> and you can easily
08:57:57 <dminuoso> And how does that deployment work?
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08:58:09 <maerwald> sorry, I'm not gonna write it for you now
08:58:09 <dminuoso> How do you push that SSH config bit onto every server?
08:58:15 <maerwald> but you can
08:58:20 <dminuoso> Well.. you say you can. Im asking, using what?
08:58:24 <dminuoso> I genuinely dont know
08:58:33 <maerwald> you check in your config into a git repo?
08:58:48 <maerwald> nix doesn't do any magic, really
08:59:10 <maerwald> gentoo packages is in a git repo, you just freeze the commit
08:59:14 <dminuoso> With nixops the entirety of systemd is declaratively controlled. So no machine runs systemd units that I dont declare, you cant even backdoor this.
08:59:15 <maerwald> and you get the same packages always
08:59:17 <dminuoso> *nixos
08:59:26 <maerwald> nix again does the same
08:59:26 <dminuoso> I see
08:59:28 <maerwald> nothing special
08:59:32 <maerwald> old approach
08:59:48 <maerwald> just better marketing
09:00:03 <dminuoso> Yeah no, I think you're greatly mischaracterizing nixos
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09:00:39 <dminuoso> The stuff we're building, you cant trivially do with manually written config stored in a git repo
09:00:46 <dminuoso> Or rather, it'd be a major pain in the butt
09:00:51 <maerwald> gentoo even supports binary packages, so you can have pretty much an equivalent of nix cache
09:01:01 <maerwald> I doubt that
09:01:12 <dminuoso> Let me give you an example:
09:01:21 <maerwald> but I'm not paid to convince your company otherwise, so.. :p
09:01:46 <maerwald> the declarativeness of nix isn't particularly reliable either
09:01:53 <maerwald> it easily breaks when you bump the commit
09:02:24 <maerwald> you have similar issues when using upstream config format
09:03:03 <maerwald> there are a lot of tools that abstract over that too, without nix
09:03:24 <maerwald> you pin their versions and pin the distro state
09:03:26 <maerwald> and you have the same
09:03:36 <dminuoso> https://gist.github.com/dminuoso/6fadc3855d2dd9f69b8d33e5f756fbea
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09:03:57 <dminuoso> So this is the type of thing that is very hard to obtain without a fully declarative configuration
09:04:26 <maerwald> Odd... I managed
09:04:27 <dminuoso> This automatically provides a http service discovery endpoint, that names *all* hosts and URIs to all configured Prometheus exporters
09:05:10 <dminuoso> You can probably roll something similar with puppet
09:05:16 <maerwald> I guess configuring a full jenkins with automatic pipelines, dnyamic amazon runners, docker builds, deployments, 3-4 test instances etc etc is too hard without nix?
09:05:21 <maerwald> It took me 2 weeks
09:05:24 <maerwald> the nix config took months
09:05:33 <dminuoso> I have no experience with jenkins, so I cant say
09:05:46 <maerwald> and I didn't have to mentor anyone afterwards
09:05:49 <maerwald> documentation was enough
09:06:24 <maerwald> so yeah, I consider nix a danger to your startup
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09:07:11 <maerwald> but I'm not a devops really, so let them do whatever they want :p
09:07:12 <dexterfoo> jenkins config is a tangled mess of XML files that can only reasonably be configured via the GUI. how did you automate that?
09:07:15 <merijn> oh, maybe I should promote Nix to ruin startups!
09:07:23 <dminuoso> maerwald: the ability to intermix code and configuration is just too useful. And yeah, I mean you can start using jinja and dynamically generate config.
09:07:47 <dminuoso> maerwald: but then you get to the problem of "how does that description also assert that software is present and running", or how do you assure that its "not present and not running"
09:08:15 <dminuoso> And the reality is, if you have long running servers, sooner or later someone is going to logon to the system and do something like `apt install nginx` for some bizarre reason, and forget about it
09:08:44 <maerwald> dexterfoo: you configure via the GUI
09:09:03 <maerwald> and the relevant files get checked into the git repo
09:09:20 <maerwald> usually, you have *one* jenkins btw ;)
09:10:40 <maerwald> dminuoso: chef, puppet, ansible, propellor, ....
09:10:53 <maerwald> there's tons of tools to pick from
09:11:00 <maerwald> all of them are more sane than nix
09:11:08 <dminuoso> Okay, you hate nix. I get it. :)
09:11:13 <dminuoso> We love nix.
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09:11:46 <dminuoso> And by the way, out of that list, only puppet can reasonably do what i suggested above.
09:12:05 <dminuoso> ansible/chef/propellor all cant deal with people bypassing your automation
09:12:29 <maerwald> dminuoso: I was on a similar trip like nix boys are now. I introduced a high-complexity gentoo config to a "customer" (friend I knew from university). He told me he'll never be able to upgrade this thing on his own. I said "naah"
09:12:36 <maerwald> and 5 years later we met again and that happened
09:12:44 <dminuoso> and they also dont declare the machine, they're just automated imperative commands - so you always have some precondition on the current state
09:12:50 <dminuoso> which means deploying to a fresh machine might produce a different result
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09:13:30 <maerwald> people using nix seems to have very little concerns about *updates*
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09:14:34 <maerwald> nix has no abstraction... you have to understand everything
09:14:45 <dminuoso> Well nix does have abstractions
09:14:48 <maerwald> otherwise you can't maintain it
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09:15:00 <maerwald> no, it doesn't distinguish between code and config
09:15:06 <maerwald> so you have to understand the code
09:15:08 <maerwald> all of it
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09:15:20 <dminuoso> maerwald: at the very least you *can* maintain it in a singular simple language. If I want to package something for say centos, I have to first figure out how to use ancient and antiquated rpm
09:15:33 <maerwald> dminuoso: again, there are abstractions for it
09:15:35 <dminuoso> Packaging up software for nixos is really trivial in comparison.. :p
09:15:38 <maerwald> since decades
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09:15:40 <dminuoso> maerwald: *horrible* abstractions.
09:15:50 <maerwald> not much different from nix then
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09:16:19 <dminuoso> Anyway. We update our nixos machines regularly.
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09:17:24 <dminuoso> Our mail cluster has a duplicate, using the exact same configuration (it's the same files, even!), with just IP addresses and hostnames swapped out. We just bump nixpkgs, deploy to the cluster, run integration tests, and if all is green, we deploy to production.
09:17:41 <dminuoso> And because its nixos, we have a high confidence production will behave exactly the same
09:18:06 <maerwald> I'd love to know how many man-hours IOHK put into their nix infrastructure. And I'm confident the numbers would be so high that from a business/financial perspective, it's a loss compared to other solutions.
09:19:05 <dminuoso> Im probably somewhere around 100 hours, and for one coworker we spend maybe 10 hours total, and he has enough competency to fully dissect and rebuild nixos modules.
09:19:08 <maerwald> but now other people benefit from it too it seems, so
09:19:12 <dminuoso> So I dont know..
09:19:40 <dminuoso> If it takes just 10 hours of investment to get someone with enough competency to package up custom software, modify official nixos modules..
09:19:52 <dminuoso> I mean yeah, much of the subtlety in nix is for touching derivations
09:19:59 <dminuoso> So that's far more complicated
09:20:11 <dminuoso> But in case of just regular "we wanna use standard software" that's not even remotely needed.
09:20:48 <maerwald> usual nix use case: "Just do this..." -> 5 hours later reading through humongous reddit threads, where someone is desparately looking for a solution and the answer took several nix maintainers several weeks to figure out there's a bug in their config
09:21:35 <maerwald> because when you config language is turing complete
09:21:37 <maerwald> you get more bugs
09:21:40 <maerwald> who knew?
09:23:14 <dminuoso> What can I say, this prometheus service discovery is either going to be very error prone if done by hand, or Im not sure you can trivially do this without a programmatic configuration language
09:23:47 <dminuoso> But we havent encountered any such "takes several weeks" bugs yet.
09:24:47 <dminuoso> I mean yeah, there's the odd "whoops, why I cant refer to pkgs in imports in a nixos module" moment, that requires a nix expert to explain. But that one is solved after a few minutes on matrix/irc/mailing list if you cared enough about it.
09:25:06 <dminuoso> Generally we try to do minimalistic nixos modules, which are largely trivial
09:25:15 <dminuoso> So we dont even invite these situations
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09:44:56 <__monty__> dminuoso: Wait, that can't be solved, can it?
09:45:33 <dminuoso> __monty__: No it cant.
09:45:42 <dminuoso> But it's really not a big deal.
09:45:53 <__monty__> The main advantage of Nix to me is the ease of rollbacks. You don't have to worry as much about messing things up because it's so easy to just pretend nothing happened.
09:46:03 <dminuoso> I noticed it when I tried to do something like `imports = [ (pkgs.fetchFromGitHub { ... }) ];`
09:46:10 <__monty__> Yeah, me too.
09:46:29 <__monty__> I'd prefer it was possible though, builtins.fetchurl is so limited.
09:46:32 <dminuoso> But its not a big deal since you can simply use builtins.fetchGit instead.
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09:48:19 <__monty__> Right, but doesn't that always clone the repo? (Didn't intend to turn this into #nixos though >.<)
09:48:34 <dminuoso> __monty__: "always"?
09:48:41 <dminuoso> Well the real solution is to use nix flakes. :P
09:48:47 <dminuoso> In our case we made a mono repo, so that worked too
09:49:12 <dminuoso> And no, actually that's one of those subtle things. If I understand it correctly, the specified sha256 hash is used as the hash in the generated store path.
09:49:19 <dminuoso> (This is just based on observation)
09:50:06 <dminuoso> This is why simply changing the url will surprisingly not refetch that repository (and generate a possibly expected sha mismatch error for trust-on-first-use)
09:50:21 <__monty__> Yeah, it's a FOD. Maybe the difference I'm remembering is that you *have* to specify the sha256 to make it a FOD while the revision is enough for fetchFromGithub? There was some subtle difference.
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09:50:45 <dminuoso> FOD?
09:51:42 <__monty__> Fixed output derivation.
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09:52:50 <dminuoso> Ah yeah
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10:44:31 <olibiera> raizes a b c = (r1, r2)
10:44:31 <olibiera> where r1 = ((-b) + sqrt(b * b - 4 * a * c)) / (2 * a) r2 = ((-b) - sqrt(b * b - 4 * a * c)) / (2 * a)
10:44:39 <olibiera> raizes 1.0 1.0 1.0
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10:44:53 <olibiera> how can i use the bot
10:45:02 <maerwald> PM
10:45:10 <_________> > "How to use bot?"
10:45:12 <lambdabot> "How to use bot?"
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10:45:17 <olibiera> oh
10:45:24 <maerwald> please don't post random code in the channel, use PM for it
10:45:35 <olibiera> i have a question
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10:46:05 <olibiera> why doing raizes 1.0 1.0 1.0 it returns (NaN,NaN)?
10:46:53 <olibiera> > raizes a b c = (r1, r2)
10:46:54 <olibiera> where r1 = ((-b) + sqrt(b * b - 4 * a * c)) / (2 * a) r2 = ((-b) - sqrt(b * b - 4 * a * c)) / (2 * a)
10:46:55 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:14: error: parse error on input ‘=’
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10:48:52 <_________> olibiera: because b²-4ac is less than 0
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10:49:29 <olibiera> > got it thx
10:49:31 <lambdabot> error:
10:49:31 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: got :: t0 -> t1 -> t
10:49:31 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant one of these:
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11:12:08 <echoone> In the language of recursion schemes, catamorphisms correspond to Church encodings and paramorphisms correspond to Parigot encodings. There does not seems to a recursion scheme corresponding to Scott encodings though. Why is that?
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11:14:04 <opqdonut> scott-encodings are non-recursive
11:14:57 <echoone> That's true.
11:15:09 <opqdonut> church encodind represents a recursive datatype with its catamorphism, scott encodig represents a recursive datatype with its destructor
11:15:26 <opqdonut> church/catamorphism is fold, scott is uncons/case-of
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11:15:32 <echoone> That's right.
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11:16:10 <echoone> Maybe if we had something called "elimantor schemes", it would show up there.
11:16:17 <echoone> *eliminator
11:16:19 <opqdonut> yeah
11:16:40 <opqdonut> haskell has some eliminators like maybe and either but it's not a commonly used pattern
11:17:11 <opqdonut> case-of is usually more ergonomic
11:17:24 <echoone> Yes. I find that also to be the case.
11:17:38 <echoone> Except when I want to write something point-free.
11:17:42 <opqdonut> :)
11:18:27 <echoone> Alright. Thanks for the input.
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11:30:37 <libertyprime> "catamorphism" reminded me that my cat isnt home yet :'( i hope she's ok
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11:33:39 <echoone> Does anyone know of attempts of doing recursion schemes using containers?
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11:35:50 <merijn> Not quite sure what you mean by that?
11:40:41 <maerwald> how do you check what code TH produces again?
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11:41:56 <merijn> -ddump-splices
11:41:56 <echoone> By containers, I mean these guys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_(type_theory)
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11:42:02 <merijn> Or something along those lines
11:42:18 <merijn> echoone: Ah...probably helps to clarify you're not referring to
11:42:21 <merijn> @hackage containers
11:42:21 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/containers
11:42:23 <merijn> :p
11:42:35 <echoone> Indeed. Sorry about that.
11:42:46 <merijn> I was very confused for a bit
11:43:02 <merijn> I am, possibly, even more confused looking at that wikipedia page, but hey!
11:43:53 <maerwald> merijn: where do they get dumped?
11:44:48 <merijn> maerwald: In the build dir, so if you're using cabal under dist-newstyle. I think there's a flag to override the output dir in GHC, though
11:54:35 <maerwald> if you put it as GHC_OPTIONS in the module, it's stderr
11:54:41 <maerwald> can't be bothered to look for the files
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12:59:06 <kuribas> is there an easy permutations function that I can copy?
12:59:41 <kuribas> oh Data.List.permutations :)
12:59:44 <kuribas> :t permutations
12:59:45 <lambdabot> [a] -> [[a]]
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13:03:23 <maerwald> dminuoso: https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/jobs/811151 nix-cache busted (for whatever reason) and now it's compiling random stuff, probably for hours ;)
13:03:52 <maerwald> it's a plague
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13:07:28 <maerwald> oddly, never happened on ubuntu :p
13:09:44 <jackdk> I am trying to test some amazonka patches against https://github.com/gilt/kms-s3 . I created a cabal.project file, listed my commit sha in source-repository-package stanzas, and despite `cabal build` downloading and building the amazonka libs, they aren't found when it starts compiling files from `kms-s3`. This is despite `amazonka` being listed in`build-depends`
13:10:49 <jackdk> This is the cabal.project I'm using. https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/9q3l4xUX/cabal.project
13:12:20 <Hecate> maerwald: do you think it's time to revive cabal-cache maybe?
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13:12:46 <maerwald> this is a problem with darwin sucking so hard that no one knows how to make it work without nix
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13:21:41 <maerwald> dminuoso: and now I bumped nixpkgs because the cache is busted and guess what... my entire config is broken
13:21:55 <maerwald> so already an hour wasted
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13:25:27 <dminuoso> maerwald: Which nixpkgs do you use exactly?
13:25:48 <maerwald> some random hash?
13:25:52 <dminuoso> https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/blob/master/.gitlab/shell.nix contains a commented out reference to angerman/nixpkgs, is that the one?
13:26:11 <dminuoso> No I meant, is this the official nixpkgs, or some fork of it?
13:26:13 <maerwald> https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/blob/master/.gitlab-ci.yml#L169
13:27:39 <vaibhavsagar[m]> looks like a fork
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13:28:20 <angerman> It’s a fork with a binary AArch64 ghc. Recent nixpkgs have those as well thanks to domen.
13:28:24 <dminuoso> Yeah no clue, you're using someone elses nixpkgs - so its hard to say why cachix might be missing store paths for this fork..
13:28:29 <dminuoso> Ah
13:29:09 <dminuoso> Well, you're probably better off using the official nixpkgs because then you have the guaranteed hydra > cachix workflow.
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13:35:27 <dminuoso> maerwald: but presumably the cache was hit before. I just checked on matrix and mailing lists, it seems there's no cache retention
13:35:31 <dminuoso> So this is curious indeed.
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13:37:48 <angerman> maerwald: is building this on the ghc ci infra. The M1s are fairly disk space constrained and GC fairly often. they also reboot once a day to clear out apples x86_64 Rosetta caches.
13:38:46 <dminuoso> Ah yes, I recall that story about rosetta caches..
13:39:16 <dminuoso> angerman: So what you're saying is, you need some big 16TiB disks connected via USB 3.0 to run the store on?
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13:39:38 <dminuoso> Maybe 16TiB is a bit overkill, evenb
13:39:41 <angerman> Something like that.
13:40:35 <angerman> It’s probably going to be some NAS for caching. But it’s probably going to take a few weeks to have that all sorted.
13:42:27 <maerwald[m]> And now the nix build failed
13:42:28 <maerwald[m]> Gg
13:42:36 <maerwald[m]> Such reproducible
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13:53:46 <Drew[m]> I'm trying to revive a dead library. Is there any reason not to jump directly to cabal file spec 3.0 or above?
13:54:40 <Drew[m]> If a user's tools are up to date, they should all be compatible, right?
13:55:21 <fendor[m]> you can lower if someone complains, but otherwise I start at a high cabal file spec version, too
13:55:27 <fendor[m]> you get such nice features
13:55:46 <Drew[m]> Yeah I really want that sweet set notation
13:56:25 <dminuoso> maerwald[m]: honestly, you're not even using nix to build it..
13:56:43 <dminuoso> So not sure why you feel entitled to deterministic builds if you just build inside a shell.. :p
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13:57:08 <Drew[m]> Doesn't the latest version of cabal (for now) still support GHC versions since before GHC 8?
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13:57:32 <merijn> Yes
13:57:46 <merijn> Cabal supports everything from something like early 7.x onwards
13:57:50 <merijn> 7.2 or 7.4 I think?
13:58:50 <merijn> Drew[m]: Cabal only drops support for (using) old GHCs when forced
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13:59:24 <maerwald[m]> dminuoso: what?
13:59:25 <Drew[m]> Yeah I found the RFC on dropping support for GHC 7
13:59:47 <maerwald[m]> dminuoso: creating the nix shell failed
13:59:49 <merijn> Drew[m]: Note there's 2 forms of support
13:59:59 <maerwald[m]> So yes, it's nix
14:00:00 <merijn> Drew[m]: 1) "can you build Cabal with old GHCs?"
14:00:10 <merijn> Drew[m]: 2) "can you use Cabal to build stuff with old GHCs"
14:00:29 <merijn> Drew[m]: There was recently an accepted proposal to drop GHC 7 support for case 1
14:00:38 <merijn> i.e. you won't be able to compile Cabal using old GHCs
14:00:51 <merijn> There is (currently) no plan to drop support for 7 for case 2
14:00:56 <Drew[m]> Ah, makes sense
14:01:04 <dminuoso> maerwald[m]: in a gitlab ci job there?
14:01:13 <merijn> Since there's no reason why Cabal should be build with the GHC version it uses
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14:03:08 <maerwald[m]> dminuoso: yes
14:03:26 <dminuoso> maerwald[m]: Which one?
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14:04:32 <dminuoso> Are you talking about this one? https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/jobs/811215#L31
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14:06:59 <maerwald[m]> No
14:07:26 <maerwald[m]> That's the one where the config is busted after update
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14:15:53 <kuribas> who do you run ghci on the test directory?
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14:21:34 <dminuoso> kuribas: Think that english is slightly garbled.
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14:21:47 <kuribas> s/who/how
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14:22:17 <maerwald> cabal repl --enable-tests?
14:24:22 <Drew[m]> Is it reasonable to write a constraint like this?
14:24:23 <Drew[m]> some-package (>= 0.15 && < 0.18) || ^>= 0.18
14:24:27 <Drew[m]> I want the semantics of ^>= without having to mention every version between the earliest tested version and the latest.
14:24:47 <kuribas> maerwald: thanks that works :) Now only if emacs had a way to run that...
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14:26:31 <timCF> Hello! I have a question about `bracket` function. There are multiple versions of it from different packages, for example `base` or `safe-exceptions` or `unliftio`. What's the difference and which one I should use?
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14:28:33 <merijn> the unliftio and safe-exceptions function try to deal with async exceptions and lifting monad stacks through it. Whether their way of dealing with those is sensible...depends on your point of view and what you want
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14:33:41 <timCF> merijn: so it's basically `base` version, but it just can run in any monad which implements some classes (for example UnliftIO class)?
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14:34:46 <timCF> maybe you know is there some principle difference between `safe-exceptions` version and `unliftio` version (except different class monad should implement)?
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14:39:31 <merijn> timCF: safe-exceptions handles async exceptions differently
14:39:40 <merijn> Whether it should is a matter of personal opinion
14:39:42 <merijn> Or rather
14:39:53 <merijn> It *tries* to handle async exceptions differently
14:40:03 <merijn> but that only really works if you use the safe-exceptions library everywhere
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14:43:29 <timCF> Ehh, I'm writing in Haskell more than a year, but async exceptions are still pain in a butt. As far as I understood from the source code `unliftio` catches async exception, doing uninterrupable cleanup and then throwing it again. Not so sure about other 2 bracket versions.
14:47:58 <merijn> async exception are always a pain in the butt
14:48:19 <merijn> We haven't found any way (in any language) to do async exceptions well
14:49:08 <dminuoso> timCF: The mind model of unliftio is that you cannot recover from an async exception using its interface.
14:49:24 <dminuoso> Not that its not possible, but you have to be very explicit should you ever want this.
14:51:45 <dminuoso> The state with `mask` is even more annoying
14:53:27 <dminuoso> Rather than calling it `interruptibleMask` and `mask`, they called them `mask` and `uninterruptibleMask`, such that it's not dead obvious from `mask` that its still interruptible in some situations.
14:53:35 <ldlework> i mean try { await foo(); } catch () { //... } is ok
14:54:09 <dminuoso> ldlework: Its not okay in any language. The moment you allow for this, resource management becomes near impossible to do right.
14:54:22 <dminuoso> Or with the right masking you risk dead locking
14:54:46 <timCF> dminuoso: so to do cleanup **and** recovery I should do something like `catch (bracket x y z) h`?
14:54:57 <dminuoso> timCF: well no. so here's the thing:
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14:55:29 <merijn> ldlework: THat's not really async exceptions
14:55:39 <merijn> ldlework: async exceptions are more like posix signals
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14:55:55 <dminuoso> Except posix signals require cooperation to receive them... :p
14:56:14 <dminuoso> And the ones that dont, you cant recover from anyway
14:56:14 <merijn> ldlework: Your example is just "an exception that happened in a primitive that happens to be called async"
14:57:25 <dminuoso> timCF: bracket before after thing = mask $ \restore -> do a <- before; r <- restore (thing a) `onException` after a; _ <- after a; return r
14:57:50 <dminuoso> timCF: So if you just stare at it, naively you might say "oh this is great. so my resource acquisition and release is in a critical section, I cant get interrupted" right?
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14:58:53 <dminuoso> That is, if we assume mask to mask async exceptions.
14:59:02 <timCF> dminuoso: looks ok then, yes
14:59:08 <dminuoso> timCF: Except it's not true!
14:59:20 <dminuoso> You *can* get interrupted by async exceptions in some situations.
15:00:11 <dminuoso> Which makes for a hilarious mind model. Once you're in whats called "an interruptible operation", async exceptions can pierce your mask and interrupt you.
15:00:31 <dminuoso> So whether brackets protects you from async exceptions really depends on what you're doing inside the resource/release stage.
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15:00:58 <timCF> dminuoso: So `unliftio` version fixes this?
15:01:16 <dminuoso> Well "fixes" fsvo of fixes.
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15:01:22 <dminuoso> timCF: Lets have a look at why this is
15:01:48 <dminuoso> The main concern now is: what is an "interruptible" action. Well, most IO for starters.
15:02:04 <dminuoso> Or rather some IO.
15:03:23 <dminuoso> There are places where receiving async exceptions is needed due to the internal implementation. Say `takeMVar`
15:04:06 <dminuoso> So if you had something like `mask $ \restore -> do { a <- takeMVar m; .... }` this could actually dead lock if `mask` fully masked off async exceptions.
15:04:18 <dminuoso> But due to the way things work, a lot of things happen to be "interruptible"
15:05:45 <timCF> dminuoso: So if I'm using `unliftio` version - I should be extremely aware of things I'm using on cleanup function?
15:06:27 <dminuoso> timCF: Heh well so unliftio uses uninterruptibleMask, which properly masks async exceptions.. except now you have to be extremely careful to not deadlock!
15:06:39 <dminuoso> Say if you used unliftio mask/bracket, and used takeMVar, you'd deadlock
15:07:05 <timCF> dminuoso: but with `safe-exceptions` version it's not the case I guess, as well as `base` version?
15:07:35 <dminuoso> timCF: the safe-exceptions version is the same
15:08:46 <dminuoso> or at least in that respect.
15:09:06 <timCF> dminuoso: ok, so unliftio and safe-exceptions are full-masked (just using different monad classes) and base version - is not fully masked
15:09:09 <dminuoso> That is, both unliftio and safe-exceptions use the interruptibleMask inside bracket
15:09:15 <dminuoso> well they're not fully masked
15:09:32 <dminuoso> its rather, that some of their primitives use uninterruptibleMask rather than mask
15:09:36 <dminuoso> See following issues:
15:09:46 <dminuoso> https://github.com/fpco/safe-exceptions/issues/3
15:09:47 <dminuoso> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/18899
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15:13:03 <dminuoso> timCF: A far more pressing difference is that base lets you accidentally recover from async exceptions.
15:13:13 <timCF> dminuoso: thanks! But anyway, if I really know that cleanup function is safe, but I still want to recover, is `catch (bracket a c x) h` way to go? As far as I understood all brackets by design should re-throw exception? It's a bit confusing because not reflected in a types
15:14:57 <dminuoso> timCF: and both safe-exceptions, and in the "newer version of it" in unliftio, both by design dont let you recover from async exceptions implicitly/by accident. All the primitives that allow you to do cleanup (say onException) will still operate on async exceptions, but something like catch will not.
15:16:25 <dminuoso> timCF: And yes, this would work.
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15:24:20 <timCF> dminuoso: this a bit remings me Erlang process exit signals, like :kill will allow process to terminate, but :brutal_kill signal will not. Brobably similar way it works in Linux in general
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15:45:26 <arjun> so i've been helping a friend, and that involves me writing clojure
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15:45:54 <arjun> didn't realize how much i missed the type system untill it's gone
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15:46:55 <maerwald> clojure will never die out I think
15:47:07 <maerwald> not many people love it
15:47:13 <maerwald> but those who do, do so radically
15:47:19 <maerwald> it's scary
15:47:21 <arjun> so, like emacs
15:49:01 <arjun> you know any scary people maerwald ? : O
15:49:39 <arjun> scary clojure people&
15:49:43 <arjun> people*
15:49:44 <arjun> ffs
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15:54:08 <kuribas> What's the command to load a test file into ghci using cabal or stack?
15:54:56 <sclv> `:load` or `:add`
15:55:13 <sclv> that's just a straight ghci command, regardless of cabal or stack or whatever invokes it
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15:59:22 <kuribas> sclv: how would that know I want the test modules?
15:59:35 <sclv> well you have to pass it explicitly those modules
15:59:51 <sclv> i'm not sure what exactly you're asking to do
16:00:04 <sclv> load all the modules of the test stanza from a cabal file if you don't have them loaded?
16:00:17 <kuribas> :l tests/ActList.hs worked...
16:00:23 <sclv> great
16:00:50 <kuribas> sadly not from emacs...
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16:04:34 <kupi> hi, is there a way in haskell to generate code like this: https://gist.github.com/theqp/9a450ffdc6dbb3de77a275c8debfb1eb
16:04:37 <kupi> to this: https://gist.github.com/theqp/bf5061b6e9202b70a97133888e770550
16:04:41 <kupi> at compile time?
16:05:21 <kuribas> ugh, why is the documentation for hspec smallcheck so terrible?
16:05:30 <kuribas> Nothing on how to change the depth.
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16:05:53 <kuribas> Not even a google search shows anything useful.
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16:09:36 <kuribas> "The packages http://hackage.haskell.org/package/tasty-smallcheck and http://hackage.haskell.org/package/hspec-smallcheck provide integration with Tasty and HSpec, two popular testing frameworks."
16:09:43 <kuribas> Not even a little example of how to use it.
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16:31:44 <absence> anyone know how i can make this TH code compile? https://pastebin.com/zEjN3TiL
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16:35:46 <dsal> Does anyone here use persistent and can help convince me it's a good idea?
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16:40:00 <byorgey> absence: does it help if you add A(..) to the import list on line 12?
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16:41:27 <absence> byorgey: unfortunately not
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16:42:05 <byorgey> absence: hmm, I don't know then
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16:43:17 <monochrom> I wonder if it is one of those TH's "declaration groups" business.
16:43:25 <absence> i can work around it by pattern matching on the A instead of using the accessor, but it seems weird that it shouldn't work
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16:44:18 <int-e> meh, missing extensions, missing imports
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16:45:13 <monochrom> And yeah it's a bit difficult to reproduce the error given non-self-contained example. :)
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16:46:36 <absence> sorry about that, i copied it out from a bigger project
16:46:38 <int-e> absence: it compiles with 8.10 and 9.0?
16:48:20 <absence> int-e: oh really? i'm on 8.10.7.. perhaps there's some unfortunate interaction with any of the other stuff in the project i copied the code from
16:48:45 <int-e> *checks* 8.10 is 8.10.7
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16:50:38 <absence> int-e: thanks for the info, it's good to know it should've worked. must be something weird about the project, i'll fiddle around with it
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16:51:11 <int-e> absence: I shouldn't be upset but I am a little... I mean, your paste lies.
16:51:31 <monochrom> On bad days I would be upset too.
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16:52:13 <monochrom> Whenever you see me harping again "see, programmers are unscientific", that's when I'm upset about this. :)
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17:01:12 <danso> i find gabriel gonzalez's post "scrap your typeclasses" really informative and compelling: https://www.haskellforall.com/2012/05/scrap-your-type-classes.html
17:01:23 <danso> has there been much follow-up discussion to this, beyond the comments there?
17:01:47 <danso> specifically, i'm wondering how haskell could support polymorphic operators without typeclasses
17:02:46 <monochrom> I think "Edit: My opinion on type classes has mellowed since I wrote this post" sums it up.
17:03:26 <danso> i saw that line, but there's no information there
17:03:57 <monochrom> In practice, only beginners, and only the subset of beginners coming from OOP, go overboard with classes, and would need to know this alternative.
17:04:59 <monochrom> Ah, I guess I have a life-long experience to help me understand the weight of that one single sentence.
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17:05:39 <dminuoso> Honestly typeclasses are weird in that it's not quite obvious how or when they are useful.
17:05:56 <dminuoso> And it's really difficult to give precise advise to newcomers when to use them or when not.
17:06:07 <monochrom> When I was young and arrogant and thought I knew it all, I wrote similar articles too. Articles that say "this thing that everyone does is overrated. here is the simpler better alternative I use."
17:06:56 <dminuoso> So now you are old, grumpy, still think you know better than your students, but instead you hold lectures now?
17:06:57 <int-e> danso: if your code relies in instantiation a lot (as printf type of things do) it'll be a minor nightmare to use
17:07:04 <int-e> danso: you'll be like _printf (make'PrintF'Double (make'PrintF'Float (make'PrintF'String (make'PrintF'Base)))) "%s %f %f" "abc" 1.0 42.0
17:07:14 <int-e> Which is kind of what GHC does under the hood when finding the PrintFArg (or whatever that class is called) instance to use for printf "%s %f %f" "abc" 1.0 42.0 :: IO ()
17:07:24 <dminuoso> monochrom: Seems like not much has changed. :p
17:07:29 <monochrom> Haha
17:07:51 <monochrom> I don't think I know better than my students.
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17:08:11 <monochrom> I have observed cases when I outwit my students, and cases when they outwit me.
17:08:11 <int-e> . o O ( Back in my days we respected our elders. )
17:08:16 <dminuoso> I know, but I had to sound snarky for the humor.
17:08:32 <monochrom> Statistically the former is more frequent but I no longer assume. I listen.
17:08:42 <monochrom> Yeah heehee
17:10:18 <monochrom> Here is an example of young arrogant dismissive me: https://www.vex.net/~trebla/stuff/TeX.html
17:11:15 <int-e> dvips, have not seen that in a long long time
17:12:24 <[exa]> dvips the mark of elders
17:13:21 <dminuoso> Backslash is a elegant weapon for a more civilized age.
17:13:36 <int-e> there were dedicated dvi viewers too :)
17:14:19 <Franciman> monochrom: how do you deal with the cases when you get outwitted?
17:14:51 <monochrom> At any rate, Gonzalez's article can be understood from the technical POV as rediscovering that classes can be implemented by dictionary passing. Dictionary passing is well-known, so no further discussion.
17:15:09 <int-e> . o O ( and direct dvi to dot matrix printing )
17:15:38 <monochrom> "hahaha beautiful/cool/awesome"
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17:15:47 <[exa]> dotmatrix printer the music of the elders
17:16:02 <geekosaur> and indirecting through gs for the cases there wasn't a direct dvi to dot matrix for
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17:16:46 <int-e> well, gs survived and is still part of modern printing pipelines
17:16:55 <Skyfire> int-e: Does GHC has hardcoded magic to handle “printf”, just like OCaml?
17:17:05 <int-e> Skyfire: no
17:17:57 <geekosaur> and there's several printf implementations, from the arcane to the truly complex
17:17:57 <int-e> Skyfire: there's a type-classed based implementation in Text.Printf which is driven by the types of the printed values; it checks the format string at runtime.
17:17:59 <[exa]> Skyfire: you can utilize typeclasses to make a function that swallows a variable number of arguments, which is basically the haskell `printf`.
17:18:19 <Skyfire> Oh, the format string is checked at runtime. I see.
17:18:23 <int-e> There's probably a couple of TemplateHaskell based ones that check types statically.
17:18:27 <Skyfire> Thanks, int-e and [exa].
17:20:00 <[exa]> honestly this is one of the few usecases where TH makes sense for me, there's even a nice package called roughly "string interpolation" that does this stuff.. (The other major usecase is the codegen for lenses)
17:20:42 <[exa]> uh seems like it's just `interpolate`. Skyfire that might be a nice alternative to printf.
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17:21:48 <int-e> [exa]: Oh I wasn't judging. I just never investigated the situation because usually either Text.Printf is good enough or I want fully fledged pretty-printing anyway.
17:22:55 <[exa]> int-e: ah I didn't want to imply you were judging :] sorry if it looked so
17:24:11 <mortemeur> is it normal for haskell-language-server to cause issues?
17:24:38 <geekosaur> yes, it's still a bit unstable at times
17:24:48 <geekosaur> still under heavy development
17:25:09 <geekosaur> sometimes you just have to kill and restart it because it becomes very confused
17:25:15 <[exa]> int-e: (probably mixed too much of my dislike of TH and like of the interpolate package together :D )
17:25:20 <dminuoso> [exa]: TH is in my opinion underused.
17:25:38 <int-e> [exa]: yeah we should stop apologizing to each other then :)
17:25:44 <dminuoso> There's too much Generic code that should either have received a regular code generator or TH instead. Or if TH helpers do exist like in aeson, they're weirdly never used.
17:25:46 <mortemeur> geekosaur: thank you. do you use it? are you used to restarting it?
17:25:46 <[exa]> :]
17:26:54 <geekosaur> I don't use it because I don't have alot of Haskell code and it's all simple enough that I don't need it, plus I come from a time before IDEs (see /nick :) I have seen people here who are fighting with a confused HLS and end up needing to kill and restart it
17:26:56 <[exa]> dminuoso: likely true, actually I might be biased by the sight of historical misuses
17:27:37 <geekosaur> my biggest code base is xmonad-contrib and I know it well enough that I don't really need an IDE at this point
17:28:00 <geekosaur> it's large but mostly simple
17:28:19 <int-e> I wish TH could separate compile time and runtime dependencies, but it's a hard problem.
17:30:09 <[exa]> that's more of a cabal job right?
17:30:27 <[exa]> ah no, you actually need a special include for that
17:30:32 <dminuoso> int-e: Yeah, Ive stumbled over linker bugs that could not clearly be attributed to GHC or Cabal, things that would simply panic GHC, and its simply because of the way TH works..
17:30:40 <int-e> [exa]: A bit of both
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17:35:24 <int-e> [exa]: what I meant is that you easily end up with heavy dependencies (say you want to support some custom splices, so you need to do your own parsing of Haskell code (using a quasi-quoter) and that means depending on haskell-src-exts or ghc-as-a-library...) and while that stuff is only needed at compile time, these dependencies will be linked with the final program
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17:36:30 <dminuoso> int-e: I think this could be avoided if GHC had an additional TH mode, one that would splice into the AST, modify the source files, and then be done.
17:36:38 <int-e> So we'd need a variant of `import` just for compile time, for TH.
17:36:50 <dminuoso> Which is something I'd really want for a couple reasons.
17:36:52 <geekosaur> sadly zeroth turned out to be unmaintainable
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17:37:05 <int-e> dminuoso: that's not addressing the root cause
17:37:12 <geekosaur> (TH as a preprocessor)
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17:37:27 <c_wraith> int-e: there's already a proposal for that in the works
17:37:39 <c_wraith> wait, you're the one implementing it, aren't you?
17:37:40 <int-e> c_wraith: yeah I think I saw at least one of those
17:38:03 <sclv> is there a proposal for exposing ghc being able to directly parse to and emit th ast?
17:38:05 <int-e> and it'll be exciting if it ever manifests :P
17:38:07 <c_wraith> Or am I misremembering the discussion badly? :)
17:38:14 <sclv> that's what I'd _really_ like
17:38:24 <int-e> c_wraith: I'm not. Maybe int-index?
17:38:31 <c_wraith> ah, yes. that's it.
17:39:29 <c_wraith> sclv: Well, there's a project in the works to unify the template-haskell AST with the AST ghc uses internally
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17:40:03 <c_wraith> sclv: though IIUC that is sort of on pause due to performance issues with the approach they were trying
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17:40:16 <int-e> oh https://hackage.haskell.org/package/derive looks pretty dead :/
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17:41:13 <int-e> pointing to generics as an alternative, which kind of brings this discussion around a full circle
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18:30:41 <zwro[m]> is there a class for "unliftable" types? eg: class Unliftable w where unlift :: w a -> a
18:31:09 <dminuoso> What would "unlift" even mean?
18:31:14 <dminuoso> What does that do?
18:31:21 <int-e> "extract" ala comonads?
18:31:33 <dminuoso> There is Copointed I guess then.
18:31:40 <dminuoso> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pointed-5.0.2/docs/Data-Copointed.html#t:Copointed
18:32:56 <zwro[m]> nice, thanks!
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20:22:32 <Athas> Is there a good way to write megaparsec-based parsers that parse text where every line has a certain prefix?
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20:22:56 <Athas> For example, consider parsing markup inside blocks of Haskell line comments.
20:23:36 <Athas> (Assuming for simplicity that the line comments all start in the first column.)
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20:26:58 <jackdk> can someone please help me fetch an updated version of a package using cabal.project? I checked out https://github.com/gilt/kms-s3 , added https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/9q3l4xUX/cabal.project and ran `cabal build`. After fetching the repository and building the packages in cabal.project, it claims to be unable to find modules provided by those packages (which are definitely listed in build-depends)
20:27:45 <dsal> Athas: thats just `parsePrefix *> parsething`
20:28:07 <Athas> dsal: I want the main part of the parser to be ignorant of the fact that a prefix might exist.
20:28:33 <Athas> E.g. I want to write an expression parser that just skips "whitespace" or whatever, which also transparently would skip the prefix, if any.
20:28:51 <Athas> Also, I want the parser to be configurable in whether there is a prefix or not.
20:29:07 <dsal> I'm sure you could make that part of your whitespace consumer. It seems slightly weird.
20:29:32 <dsal> Any horizontal spaces or a newline and an optional prefix and any horizontal whitespace.
20:29:46 <Athas> What I have done now is parameterise my parser on what it considers whitespace, but this is verbose and clumsy.
20:30:06 <sclv> c_wraith: even without that approach, just being able to get the th ast directly would bypass the need for haskell-src-meta, which would obviate the biggest source of why people have huge TH-time deps not linked in
20:30:13 <dsal> Sure, but that's exactly what you're asking for. "whitespace" just means "the part you shouldn't pay attention to"
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20:30:20 <sclv> and furthermore, it would make the whole quoting ecosystem much more robust
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20:32:53 <Athas> Maybe the easiest solution is to write a separate parser that reads the entire block, strips the prefixes, passes the result to megaparsec, and then messes with any parse errors that occur to add back the prefix.
20:32:57 <c_wraith> I mean, that's what I was getting at. When those are unified, the GHC parser could in theory be used directly in TH code, which would be nicer than having separate packages that need to be kept in sync with ghc and TH
20:33:13 <Athas> Looks like megaparsec has a pstateLinePrefix in PosState to help with this.
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20:34:16 <sclv> right, i don't disagree. i'm just suggesting that well short of unification we could still have a win :-)
20:34:47 <sclv> although maybe without unification the code bloat to ghc would be too high (if it implmemented the translation internally while keeping two asts)
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20:38:29 <jackdk> (This is on cabal 3.4)
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20:42:15 <sclv> jackdk: do you see the whole "cloning into" thing where it fetches and builds the clones?
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20:43:36 <jackdk> sclv: I do, and then I realise like a dummy that the old code I'm trying to save was trying to import modules that have moved into `other-modules:`. PEBCAK
20:43:47 <jackdk> ty, though
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22:08:32 <Skyfire> Are there any mature Haskell libraries for commutative algebra computations? I want to compute the Hilbert series of a graded subring of C[x,y].
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22:10:54 <sclv> sadly nothing pleasant to use that i know of
22:11:47 <sclv> Skyfire: probably your best bet -- https://hackage.haskell.org/package/HaskellForMaths
22:11:58 <Skyfire> Thanks. Let's see if there is something for Hilbert series.
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22:22:58 <Skyfire> Wow, the Math.CommutativeAlgebra.GroebnerBasis module seems very nice. But apparently the hilbertSeriesQA function assumes that the generators have degree 1, which is not true in my case.
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23:03:40 <zzz> someone finally did it
23:03:42 <zzz> https://youtube.com/watch?v=ADqLBc1vFwI
23:03:55 <monochrom> haha
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All times are in UTC on 2021-10-07.