Logs on 2021-10-09 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 07:26:57 | <pepeiborra> | how do I get a Hackage trustee to publish a revision relaxing the upper bound of (base,ghc-prim) for ekg, ekg-core, ekg-json and snap-server? |
| 07:27:19 | <pepeiborra> | Or can anyone suggest a maintained alternative to EKG for telemetry/metrics ? |
| 07:28:22 | <maerwald[m]> | pepeiborra: NMU takes months. I have rather poor experience with it. Just use allow-newer? |
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| 07:29:10 | <pepeiborra> | I'm adding EKG metrics to Haskell-Language-Server. Using allow-newer will break the Hackage build |
| 07:29:43 | <pepeiborra> | (for ghc 9, that is) |
| 07:29:52 | <maerwald[m]> | Then don't add it :p |
| 07:31:30 | <pepeiborra> | That's why I'm asking the help of a Hackage trustee, or an alternative. It's 2021, why can't we have nice metrics? |
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| 08:36:15 | <sm> | pepeiborra: are the maintainers not responding ? |
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| 09:07:48 | <carbolymer> | I believe I've hit the limit of what ConstraintKinds lets me to do: https://bpa.st/AHXQ - is there a way in which I could write `type WithBar m = ...` ? |
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| 09:12:30 | <tomsmeding> | carbolymer: what happens if you move the 'forall r' inside the tuple (i.e. write it twice) |
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| 09:13:31 | <df> | |
| 09:13:40 | <carbolymer> | tomsmeding: that would make (MonadReader r1 m, Has Bar r2) afaik |
| 09:14:25 | <tomsmeding> | oh wait you want them to be linked explicitly |
| 09:14:37 | <carbolymer> | yep |
| 09:15:09 | <tomsmeding> | yeah I believe this has been discussed here some time ago already, someone else had this issue and I believe the conclusion was that you can't do this with a constraint type synonym |
| 09:15:12 | <coot> | @carbolymer would this worked for you: https://bpa.st/DB4A |
| 09:15:13 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
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| 09:15:49 | <tomsmeding> | yeah making a bespoke typeclass is the only way I think (not 100% sure) |
| 09:16:48 | <carbolymer> | tomsmeding: yeah, that was my feeling, that constraint kinds does not allow that; it would be nice to have small synonym to throw around the module instead of five constraints tho |
| 09:17:00 | <tomsmeding> | carbolymer: try the type class approach :p |
| 09:17:07 | <tomsmeding> | more heavy-weight but should work |
| 09:17:33 | <carbolymer> | coot: good idea, will check, but I will need to create instances for class AandB, won't I? |
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| 09:19:51 | <tomsmeding> | class (MonadReader r m, Has Bar r) => WithBar m ; instance (MonadReader r m, Has Bar r) => WithBar m |
| 09:19:54 | <tomsmeding> | only one instance carbolymer |
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| 09:21:30 | <carbolymer> | tomsmeding: Not in scope: type variable ‘r’ |
| 09:22:07 | <tomsmeding> | is there a good reason you don't want 'r' to be a type parameter of WithBar :p |
| 09:22:13 | <coot> | carbolymer: you will also need an instance `instance (A a, B a) => AandB a`, unfortunatelly it requires `UndecidableInstances`. |
| 09:22:48 | <carbolymer> | tomsmeding: yes, all I need from r is that is has instance `Has Bar r` |
| 09:22:57 | <carbolymer> | coot: :/ |
| 09:23:35 | <tomsmeding> | carbolymer: sure, but adding r as an argument to WithBar doesn't mean you have to _use_ it in the function that has that WithBar constraint :p |
| 09:23:42 | <tomsmeding> | it's kind of ugly, I admit |
| 09:24:36 | <carbolymer> | either way I need to make some compromises, so maybe.... |
| 09:26:40 | <carbolymer> | well, this works: |
| 09:26:40 | <carbolymer> | type WithBar r m = (MonadReader r m, Has Bar r) ; foo :: WithBar r m => m () |
| 09:26:40 | <tomsmeding> | yeah 'type WithBar r m = (MonadReader r m, Has Bar r)' works but is suboptimal |
| 09:26:44 | <tomsmeding> | lol yes |
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| 09:27:13 | <carbolymer> | I think I will be able to live with this suboptimal ;) thanks! |
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| 11:35:34 | <sy4> | how is this valid Haskell, and what would be an example value of this type? type Dfa = (State, State -> Char -> State, State -> Bool) |
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| 11:38:57 | <tdammers> | "type" is just a type alias, you can alias any type you want |
| 11:39:13 | <f-a> | what is the specific word for `either`, `maybe`, `bool` and friends? Recursors? Inductors? |
| 11:39:24 | <tdammers> | this one here aliases a 3-tuple, where the first element is a State, the second is a function State -> Char -> State, and the third is a function State -> Bool |
| 11:40:30 | <sy4> | tdammers: thank you for the helpful response! |
| 11:42:18 | <Franciman> | hi f-a they are indeed recursors |
| 11:42:27 | <Franciman> | they are eliminators, too |
| 11:42:47 | <Franciman> | I am not sure about the difference between recursor and inductor, apparently you call them inductors when they are dependently typed |
| 11:42:59 | <Franciman> | and recursors otherwise, but honestly, this is just skim reading HoTT |
| 11:43:05 | <Franciman> | eliminators could be more general ^^ |
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| 11:43:11 | <f-a> | thanks |
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| 13:52:50 | <Axman6> | f-a: I have heard them referred to as catamorphisms - foldr is the equivalent for lists |
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| 14:01:17 | <f-a> | thanks Axman6 |
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| 15:18:00 | <peter71> | Consider fa *> fb. Is it possible that the RTS will evaluate fb first? Or will they be evaluated sequentially like with >>? |
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| 15:20:17 | <hpc> | it is possible |
| 15:20:38 | <hpc> | it's also possible with (>>), they are the same thing |
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| 15:21:12 | <hpc> | but that's evaluation, perhaps you're confusing that with ordering of effects? |
| 15:21:20 | <peter71> | Maybe. |
| 15:21:46 | <hpc> | evaluation is just taking an expression like (map (*2) [1..10]) and reducing it to 2:4:6:... |
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| 15:22:14 | <peter71> | I simply want to guarantee that (putStrLn "user prompt" :: IO ()) is displayed before (getLine :: IO String) |
| 15:22:24 | <hpc> | it will |
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| 15:25:49 | <peter71> | My understanding is that in (fab <*> fa) I don't know if fab or fa will be evaluated first and that in (ma >>= amb) ma will always be evaluated first because the monad enforces a sequence. Is this wrong? |
| 15:26:44 | <hpc> | evaluation is independent from... we'll call it "execution" |
| 15:27:26 | <hpc> | and that difference is what IO captures |
| 15:27:53 | <hpc> | if you did say, (++) <$> getLine <*> getLine, the result will always be the first line you typed, then the second line you typed |
| 15:28:39 | <hpc> | but for something where evaluation order matters, perhaps you try (++) <$> (getLine >> error "1") <*> (getLine >> error "2") |
| 15:29:04 | <hpc> | which error triggers depends on which gets evaluated first |
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| 15:29:21 | <hpc> | if we ignore errors, the only thing evaluation does is make your cpu warm :P |
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| 15:33:08 | <peter71> | I tried your example a couple of times and it always produces the error message "1". |
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| 15:34:06 | <hpc> | that might be a ghc thing |
| 15:34:21 | <hpc> | strictly speaking (heehee), evaluation can happen in any order |
| 15:34:42 | <peter71> | The difference between eval vs effect ordering is a hard topic for me. Is there a resource you can recommend, a book or blog post? |
| 15:34:49 | <geekosaur> | right, technically there is no order but a given implementation might always do the same thing. it's allowed, not required |
| 15:35:05 | <hpc> | none off the top of my head, i learned it in a very hodgepodge sort of way |
| 15:35:17 | <geekosaur> | so for example changing optimizations might cause it to always produce "2" |
| 15:35:27 | <hpc> | and yeah, it's pretty mind-bending |
| 15:36:14 | <peter71> | And if I would use monadic operators instead would it change the semantics at all? |
| 15:36:31 | <hpc> | it will be the same |
| 15:37:31 | <hpc> | the thing that ultimately made it all snap into place for me was realizing evaluation and execution don't happen on their own, they're always triggered by something |
| 15:37:43 | <hpc> | when you run a haskell program, a miracle occurs that makes main get executed |
| 15:37:44 | <peter71> | Then why do we say a monad enforces a sequence if there is no difference? |
| 15:38:03 | <hpc> | and that execution triggers evaluation however it needs to, in order to know what primitive operations to perform |
| 15:38:47 | <geekosaur> | (monads don't always enforce a sequence; see Cont) |
| 15:38:59 | <hpc> | it enforces sequencing of something else, not evaluation |
| 15:39:10 | <hpc> | when you write (a / b), either a or b can be reduced to a number |
| 15:39:16 | <hpc> | but you can't say that's the same as (b / a) |
| 15:39:22 | <hpc> | same with (>>) and friends |
| 15:39:36 | <hpc> | *can be reduced to a number first |
| 15:40:09 | <peter71> | so a bit like commutativity vs associativity? |
| 15:41:08 | <hpc> | more like commutativity vs you looking at the formula and reducing it to something more simple |
| 15:41:35 | <hpc> | you know intuitively that you can start wherever you want in the expression |
| 15:41:47 | <hpc> | (super complicated formula) * 0 doesn't require you to evaluate from left to right ;) |
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| 15:47:11 | <peter71> | hpc: the (a / b) example is good. Let's say both could throw an error and let's say both in fact do. Then the error I see depends on the evaluatin order. But if a and b both don't go wrong then I see the same result no matter which one is evaluated first. But it would matter if I changed it to b / a. |
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| 15:50:41 | <hpc> | exactly |
| 15:53:44 | <hpc> | this idea is my favorite part of haskell, more than the laziness and type system and so on |
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| 15:54:25 | <hpc> | it means things like IO get completely extracted out of the language, and into things you can manipulate directly as values |
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| 15:58:10 | <hpc> | and once you really internalize it, you'll start hating when you have to write "foo(function() {a; b; c;});" |
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| 15:58:52 | <hpc> | and wishing you could just write "foo $ do {a; b; c}" instead, because wrapping actions in functions just feels wrong |
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| 16:30:23 | <peter71> | Another example: a1 >>= a2. Let's say a1 and a2 are both IO actions that involve syscalls, a1 is something with an HTTP request and a2 needs to access a data base. In the beginning the RTS doesn't know what a1 and a2 are at all. It starts evaluating a2 and builds a "recipe" and recognizes that it will have to make a syscall in the future when it will execute this recipe. After that the RTS starts |
| 16:30:25 | <peter71> | evaluating a1 (building the recipe for a1). But then it will always _execute_ the a1 syscall before the a2 syscall. Or can the _execution_ of the a2 syscall hapen before the a2 syscall? |
| 16:31:46 | <peter71> | Sorry: *can execution of a2 happen before a1? |
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| 16:51:03 | <hololeap> | a2 requires the result of a1, so probably not, unless a2 just drops the result or something |
| 16:52:58 | <hololeap> | not sure if ((a1 >> a2) :: IO ()) always evaluates in the same order |
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| 16:53:05 | <int-e> | unless you play games with unsafeInterleaveIO or unsafePerformIO the result doesn't really matter; the effects of a1 (including FFI calls) will take place before those of a2. |
| 16:54:22 | <int-e> | really ordering effects is the main point of IO (and its sibling, ST) |
| 16:54:37 | <int-e> | ordering and forcing effects, I should say |
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| 16:56:17 | <hololeap> | I would also assume that State forces evaluation in the same order every time, since it has to thread a value through a specific ordering of actions |
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| 16:58:02 | <hololeap> | unless one of the actions just ignores the previous value and sets it to something static... then I suppose it could split the evaluation at that point and do both pieces in parallel... if the compiler is smart enough to do that |
| 16:59:31 | <int-e> | > evalState (undefined >> return 42) undefined |
| 16:59:33 | <lambdabot> | 42 |
| 16:59:55 | <hololeap> | evalState (undefined >>= return) undefined |
| 16:59:58 | <hololeap> | > evalState (undefined >>= return) undefined |
| 17:00:00 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: Prelude.undefined |
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| 17:00:50 | <hololeap> | int-e: are you saying the Applicative instance of IO and ST force the evaluation order? |
| 17:00:58 | <int-e> | State is pretty lazy actually. And I need to remind myself what exactly is strict in the Control.Monad.State.Strict version of it. |
| 17:01:01 | <int-e> | hololeap: Yes |
| 17:01:11 | <int-e> | hololeap: I mean, no, I didn't say that. But they do. |
| 17:01:20 | <hololeap> | :) |
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| 17:02:25 | <hololeap> | I think that the strict version of State immediately evaluates the argument of `put` instead of having it hang around in a thunk until `get` gets called |
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| 17:05:50 | <int-e> | I think the ...Strict variant is strict in the /actions/. So the example above bottoms out, but this works fine: evalState (modify undefined >> return undefined >> return 42) undefined |
| 17:06:56 | <int-e> | > evalState (modify' undefined >> return 42) undefined -- this would produce bottom with the .Strict variant |
| 17:06:57 | <lambdabot> | 42 |
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| 17:21:06 | <hololeap> | % import qualified Control.Monad.Trans.State.Strict as SS |
| 17:21:06 | <yahb> | hololeap: |
| 17:21:28 | <hololeap> | % SS.evalState (SS.modify' undefined >> return 42) undefined |
| 17:21:28 | <yahb> | hololeap: *** Exception: Prelude.undefined; CallStack (from HasCallStack):; error, called at libraries/base/GHC/Err.hs:75:14 in base:GHC.Err; undefined, called at <interactive>:3:26 in interactive:Ghci4 |
| 17:21:51 | <hololeap> | % SS.evalState (SS.modify' (error "e1") >> return 42) (error "e2") |
| 17:21:51 | <yahb> | hololeap: *** Exception: e1; CallStack (from HasCallStack):; error, called at <interactive>:4:27 in interactive:Ghci4 |
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| 17:22:29 | <hololeap> | % SS.evalState (SS.modify (error "e1") >> return 42) (error "e2") |
| 17:22:29 | <yahb> | hololeap: 42 |
| 17:22:57 | <hololeap> | % SS.evalState (SS.put (error "e1") >> return 42) (error "e2") |
| 17:22:57 | <yahb> | hololeap: 42 |
| 17:23:09 | <hololeap> | hm |
| 17:23:11 | <hololeap> | ok |
| 17:24:12 | <hololeap> | % SS.evalState (SS.put (error "e1") >> SS.get >> return 42) (error "e2") |
| 17:24:12 | <yahb> | hololeap: 42 |
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| 17:27:09 | <peter71> | hololeap: I don't think a1 >> a2 necessarily always evaluate in the same order but I hope a1 always gets executed first. |
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| 17:28:44 | <hippoid> | I'm trying to figure out why `fmap.const` is of type `b -> f a -> f b`. I thought it would be `(b->a) -> f a -> f b` |
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| 17:29:42 | <hololeap> | hippoid: just follow the type signatures |
| 17:31:10 | <hippoid> | hololeap: I tried following the type signatures and working it out on paper, yet I don't see what's going on |
| 17:31:14 | <hpc> | start with (.) |
| 17:31:18 | <hpc> | :t (.) |
| 17:31:20 | <lambdabot> | (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c |
| 17:31:26 | <hpc> | fill in fmap's type for the first argument |
| 17:31:31 | <hpc> | fill in const's type for the second argument |
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| 17:31:40 | <hpc> | and solve for a, b, c |
| 17:31:58 | <hippoid> | hpc: thanks, I'm going to try that |
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| 17:32:22 | <hpc> | if you start with fmap, you're going to have trouble getting anywhere, since it's not actually the "root" of the expression |
| 17:32:34 | <geekosaur> | it alos helps to rename the variables since the a -> b -> a in const is different from the a, b, c in (.) |
| 17:33:28 | <hololeap> | fmap . const === \myVal myFunctor -> fmap (const myVal) myFunctor |
| 17:34:24 | <hololeap> | === \myVal myFunctor -> fmap (\_ -> myVal) myFunctor |
| 17:34:57 | <hololeap> | it also ends up just being (<$) |
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| 17:35:00 | <hololeap> | :t (<$) |
| 17:35:01 | <lambdabot> | Functor f => a -> f b -> f a |
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| 17:35:43 | <hippoid> | hpc: what does "root" of expresssion mean? |
| 17:36:08 | <hpc> | hippoid: imagine you're a compiler or parser or something, and you're given an expression |
| 17:36:17 | <hpc> | you parse it into a tree |
| 17:36:22 | <hpc> | and (.) here is the root of that tree |
| 17:36:33 | <hpc> | it has two leaf nodes, fmap and const |
| 17:36:56 | <hippoid> | ahhh, that makes sense |
| 17:37:45 | <hololeap> | > 4 <$ Just 10 |
| 17:37:47 | <lambdabot> | Just 4 |
| 17:38:15 | <hololeap> | it just replaces the value in the functor with the first value you give it |
| 17:39:08 | <hpc> | hololeap: don't give away the answer for free |
| 17:39:17 | <hololeap> | haha sorry |
| 17:39:20 | <hpc> | in #haskell we don't lead a horse to water, we teach a horse to fish |
| 17:39:33 | <hololeap> | lol |
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| 18:11:02 | <maerwald> | dhall doesn't even have string comparsion? ugh |
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| 18:50:59 | <dsal> | I really wanted to like Dhall. It seemed to do all the things I wanted. |
| 18:51:26 | <dsal> | At least, like it could. There's that new one that looks like JSON. I didn't look into it that much because I'm pretty sure it's just differently disappointing. |
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| 18:55:52 | <sm> | was that https://hackage.haskell.org/package/config-schema dsal ? |
| 18:56:03 | <sm> | https://glguy.net/config-demo rather |
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| 19:20:08 | <maerwald> | new aeson release already breaking lots of packages... :D |
| 19:21:31 | <awpr> | presumably this is one that addresses the lack of salting? I didn't hear what resolution they ended up choosing |
| 19:22:12 | <maerwald> | an API breaking solution that abstracts over 'KeyMap' |
| 19:23:24 | <awpr> | so packages are broken by version bounds rejecting 2.0, or by incorrect version bounds and failing to compile? |
| 19:23:32 | <maerwald> | both |
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| 19:24:52 | <maerwald> | conversion isn't really hard |
| 19:24:58 | wildsebastian[m] | is now known as wildsebastian |
| 19:26:00 | <maerwald> | but you know... getting maintainers to actually patch it is |
| 19:28:05 | <awpr> | I don't think any of my packages have aeson deps, but I'll double-check |
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| 19:28:48 | <aegon> | I'm trying to figure out a way to encode unique message id's -> message type for encoding / decoding a messageID / Bytestring pair but I'm not sure what extensions will get me there. |
| 19:28:54 | <aegon> | Here's the current thing I'm running with |
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| 19:28:57 | <aegon> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/qsCMpGYA |
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| 19:31:31 | <geekosaur> | no aeson deps in xmonad, not even in -extras |
| 19:40:03 | <sm> | I'll ask this here too: a practical haskell puzzle: how would you play a continuous sound, and vary the volume dynamically while it plays ? |
| 19:40:16 | <fuzzypixelz> | is it just me or is stack build/test very slow? |
| 19:40:45 | <sm> | fuzzypixelz: that entirely depends, but --fast is a quick way to speed it up a bit |
| 19:41:02 | <maerwald> | fuzzypixelz: that's a pretty generic question |
| 19:41:10 | <maerwald> | slow compared to what? |
| 19:41:50 | <sm> | are you talking about installing-ghc-and-libs-before-building-my-thing, or just rebuilding-my-thing ? |
| 19:42:29 | <fuzzypixelz> | compared to GHC? I'm only depending on Text and Megaparsec and stack run takes about 8 seconds _every time_, even after minor changes |
| 19:42:36 | <fuzzypixelz> | just rebuilding |
| 19:43:01 | <sm> | is it recompiling something ? or is this just a constant startup delay ? |
| 19:43:07 | <fuzzypixelz> | to be fair I have all my lib in a 300 liner |
| 19:43:34 | <fuzzypixelz> | but I did not know about --fast so I'll check it out |
| 19:43:38 | <kuribas> | Does quickcheck try small values first, or is it completely random? |
| 19:43:51 | <fuzzypixelz> | yes it's recompiling the ... 300 lines of my Lib.hs |
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| 19:44:15 | <sm> | is the compilation taking 8 seconds ? or the linking ? |
| 19:45:43 | <sm> | you can avoid the slow linking step by using ghcid [-T main] instead of stack build/test/run |
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| 19:49:04 | <fuzzypixelz> | I'd say the compilation is the one taking the longest. with --fast I'm down to 3-4 secs |
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| 19:49:35 | <fuzzypixelz> | once the compilation is over the linking is almost instant |
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| 19:50:25 | <sm> | ok, you could experiment with your source to see what's slow - it might be something you could change |
| 19:50:34 | <fuzzypixelz> | if I do split my code into multiple source files, will I benefit from unchanged compiled parts |
| 19:50:35 | <sm> | or a known slow case for your ghc version, which a different ghc version might handle better |
| 19:50:35 | <fuzzypixelz> | ? |
| 19:50:45 | <sm> | yes |
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| 19:51:40 | <sm> | are you generating a lot of code with derive or TH, perhaps |
| 19:51:40 | <fuzzypixelz> | hmm, where can I read up on on module system? I've always put it off |
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| 19:52:11 | <fuzzypixelz> | oh I have derive Eq on all my types |
| 19:52:11 | <sm> | the haskell language report I guess |
| 19:52:22 | <fuzzypixelz> | TH? |
| 19:52:33 | <sm> | that doesn't sound slow, but worth comparing without it.. TH is template haskell |
| 19:53:10 | <geekosaur> | Eq should be pretty fast since it generates very little code |
| 19:53:27 | <geekosaur> | Generic's the really slow derive |
| 19:54:40 | <sm> | regarding my sound question, would anyone have an example or a (penetrable) lib for synthesizng audio in a streaming way ? |
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| 20:00:20 | <hololeap> | sm: there's the synthesizer-* packages, but I couldn't wrap my head around them last time I tried |
| 20:00:36 | <fuzzypixelz> | is there a variant of zipWith that only cosumes two elements if they both satisfy some predicate? |
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| 20:01:26 | <fuzzypixelz> | as in zipWith___ :: (a -> b -> Maybe c) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c] |
| 20:01:41 | <sm> | thanks |
| 20:01:44 | <fuzzypixelz> | no that doesn't make sense |
| 20:01:52 | <sm> | likewise with sox lib |
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| 20:07:41 | <dsal> | :t catMaybes . zipWith |
| 20:07:42 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 20:07:42 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match type ‘[a] -> [b] -> [c]’ with ‘[Maybe a1]’ |
| 20:07:42 | <lambdabot> | Expected type: (a -> b -> c) -> [Maybe a1] |
| 20:07:55 | <dsal> | Oh right. Something like that, though. |
| 20:10:22 | <maerwald> | sm: did you check your aeson bounds? :> |
| 20:11:11 | <sm> | some adjustments now needed, eh ? |
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| 20:11:25 | <maerwald> | if you access the Object Hashmap |
| 20:11:53 | <sm> | thanks, we shall see! |
| 20:12:29 | <maerwald> | sm: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/WUjkytRu |
| 20:12:39 | <maerwald> | there are some examples |
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| 20:12:55 | <sm> | thanks maerwald |
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| 20:13:35 | <hololeap> | :t \f xs ys -> filter (\(x,y) -> f x y) (zip xs ys) -- fuzzypixelz |
| 20:13:36 | <lambdabot> | (t1 -> t2 -> Bool) -> [t1] -> [t2] -> [(t1, t2)] |
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| 20:14:11 | <d34df00d> | Hi! |
| 20:14:28 | <geekosaur> | œ |
| 20:14:36 | <sm> | folks here might enjoy https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28794614 (small haskell compilers) |
| 20:14:41 | <hololeap> | there's also padZip from the semialign package if the lists are of different lengths |
| 20:14:54 | <d34df00d> | What's the library of choice nowadays to quickly plot logarithmic time distribution of some performance measurements? |
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| 20:15:07 | <d34df00d> | I typically use Charts for that, but last time I did that was a year or two ago and I've forgotten its API again. |
| 20:16:26 | <aegon> | d34df00d: vega-lite seems pretty good, but its the only lib i've used so there are prolly better out there |
| 20:17:01 | <d34df00d> | aegon: yay, never heard of that, thanks! |
| 20:17:32 | <zero> | is it possible to preserve color when running :!commands in ghci? |
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| 20:18:29 | <aegon> | d34df00d: np, happy library travels :) |
| 20:18:38 | <geekosaur> | --color=always option for those commands that support it |
| 20:19:06 | <geekosaur> | I think :! always goes though a pager so most commands will refuse to use colors |
| 20:19:14 | <aegon> | d34df00d: this is a good run down https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hvega-0.4.0.0/docs/Graphics-Vega-Tutorials-VegaLite.html |
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| 20:19:32 | <zero> | geekosaur: oh that's my mistake. im piping the output to less |
| 20:19:39 | <zero> | so this is more a less question |
| 20:19:42 | <zero> | sorry |
| 20:20:07 | <geekosaur> | you still need something like --colors=always because otherwise the command will not output colors at all |
| 20:20:18 | <awpr> | well, ghci also prevents shell commands from having color. maybe it's a ghci feature request to launch shell commands via a pty? |
| 20:20:21 | <geekosaur> | there's also a less option to make it try to understand the color escapes |
| 20:20:57 | <geekosaur> | awpr, it shouldn't need one normally since it'd be outputting to the current tty. unless, as I said, it pipes output to a pager anyway |
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| 20:21:05 | <hololeap> | aegon: isn't vega some jupyter thing? |
| 20:21:09 | <sm> | d34df00d: easyplot was mentioned yesterday. There's also r things if you're into r |
| 20:21:29 | <awpr> | it evidently creates a pipe to talk to the subprocess, since it makes them default to no-color |
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| 20:21:59 | <awpr> | or maybe you mean "normally" as in "if it's doing things in the traditional way", in which case, it apparently isn't |
| 20:23:00 | <aegon> | easyplot seems way simpler to use. hololeap possibly, i first ran into it working with hasktorch and that group is used to jupyter tools |
| 20:23:27 | <aegon> | hololeap: it doesn't seem to have any hard ties though, i read it like a d3 style tool https://vega.github.io/vega-lite/ |
| 20:25:14 | <aegon> | outputting html seems overboard for simple graphs though, gonna read through easyplot, sounds like a better go-to for simple graphs |
| 20:25:40 | <sm> | hvega is the one if you want pretty charts I think |
| 20:25:48 | <geekosaur> | I think it's less -m to interpret escapes |
| 20:26:01 | <idnar> | -R |
| 20:26:09 | <geekosaur> | ah |
| 20:27:53 | <hololeap> | aegon: ok, I just got confused last time I looked into that whole ecosystem |
| 20:28:53 | ← | f-a parts (f2a@f2a.jujube.ircnow.org) () |
| 20:30:21 | <sm> | d34df00d: and there's also command-line tools like https://github.com/GregorySchwartz/ploterific |
| 20:32:34 | <d34df00d> | Yay, thank you for the pointers! |
| 20:32:42 | <d34df00d> | Onwards to making charts! |
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| 20:41:01 | <jaitoon> | Hello, I have a question. If lists in Haskell are immutable, then why does the "length" function take linear time? Shouldn't the size be set and stored when the list is defined if it's immutable? Why would we need to traverse the whole linked list? |
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| 20:41:48 | <geekosaur> | who says the size is stored anywhere? |
| 20:41:59 | <geekosaur> | also that's not quite what "immutable" means |
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| 20:42:20 | <awpr> | also, who says the size is finite? |
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| 20:43:21 | <awpr> | supposing you were to define lists s.t. they cache their size (which is a reasonable thing to want in some cases), then the size would be problematic for `let yes = "yes" : yes in yes` |
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| 20:44:29 | <aegon> | jaitoon: if you want linear time and more c like lists for some domain theres Vector and Sequence |
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| 20:45:20 | <awpr> | so, storing the size on the head of the list would make lists less useful as a streaming control structure, and more useful as a data structure. the problem is, they're still awful as a data structure, and they're meant to be good as a control structure |
| 20:46:02 | <fuzzypixelz> | is there is a function/operator to take two f :: a -> Bool and g :: a -> Bool and return h :: a -> Bool s.t. "h a == f a || g a" ? |
| 20:46:36 | <d34df00d> | awpr: ideally finite lists and infinite lists would be separate entities, because data and codata and all that. |
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| 20:47:30 | <fuzzypixelz> | But maybe again just a lambda is simpler |
| 20:47:42 | <monochrom> | I gave an exam question about "so you want a finite list type to store its own length..." |
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| 20:48:53 | <Morrow[m]> | fuzzypixelz: liftA2 (||) |
| 20:49:12 | <sm> | can a haskell program test at runtime if a C lib is present, and then dynamically load it and start using it if so ? |
| 20:50:04 | <sm> | also, relatedly: how hard would it be to make stack/cabal's script interpreter mode also able to download C libraries ? |
| 20:50:05 | <aegon> | sm: yes but i forget the library |
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| 20:50:23 | <aegon> | sm: er, the module, i think theres info in ghcs user docs |
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| 20:50:40 | <sm> | aegon, thanks |
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| 20:51:15 | <aegon> | sm: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/shared_libs.html#finding-shared-libraries-at-runtime |
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| 20:52:07 | <aegon> | sm: theres a module that does dynamic loading and then can give handles to functions given a symbol and all that jazz but I'm having trouble finding it, hopefully someone can link in the channel |
| 20:52:17 | <sm> | nice! I'm thinking about using this to depend on say SDL-mixer but degrade gracefully when it's not installed |
| 20:52:48 | <sclv> | sm: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dynamic-linker-template |
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| 20:56:13 | <sm> | thanks! |
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| 20:59:45 | <aegon> | sm, this is the jumping off point I found when looking into it last time https://wiki.haskell.org/Foreign_Function_Interface#Dynamic_function_call has a ton of info on all that stuff |
| 20:59:50 | <geekosaur> | sm, re downloading, the problem there is coming up with a registry of such libraries. or if you want to use youyr system package manager, first you have to figure out which package manager the system uses, then the package name which may not be the same as the C library, then you need some way to do installs as root… |
| 21:01:07 | <sm> | yes indeed. Still I wonder how far one could get - perhaps just a few high value C libs, perhaps just certain on OS's/with certain system packaging tools available |
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| 21:02:33 | <aegon> | i can't tell, does ghc support dynamic linking on windows at the moment? it looks like maybe not |
| 21:03:55 | <aegon> | i mean importing dll's on windows at runtime vai LoadLibrary etc, it looks like its only support in *nix land |
| 21:04:35 | <geekosaur> | I have a vague recollection of LoadLibrary breaking badly on Windows when they tried it |
| 21:05:20 | <sm> | ah. Yes that sounds rather likely |
| 21:05:40 | <sm> | that would be the first platform to test |
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| 21:06:17 | <sm> | another though is to use conditional compilation (CPP), if that works in a stack script |
| 21:06:24 | <sm> | thought |
| 21:07:03 | <geekosaur> | something about having to link in a separate libc for the dynamic libraries, and then any heap-stored CRT stuff breaks |
| 21:07:09 | <geekosaur> | iirc |
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| 21:11:31 | <fuzzypixelz> | I wrote something kind of ugly, using `takeWhile1P (\c -> c `elem' ['a'..'z'] || c == '.')` but because I don't care for the dots, I want to drop them so I `filter (\= '.')` |
| 21:12:56 | <sm> | no, I think CPP does not work in a stack script |
| 21:12:57 | <fuzzypixelz> | I read through https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parser-combinators-1.3.0/docs/Control-Monad-Combinators.html but there doesn't seem to be any combinator(s) for "takeIfPelseifQdrop"" |
| 21:13:44 | <fuzzypixelz> | chaining filter and takWhileP works but maybe it could be better? |
| 21:13:52 | <sm> | it doesn't like the shebang line. A pity. |
| 21:18:21 | sm | thinks about sdl2-foo-compat libs that would always build |
| 21:18:47 | <aegon> | geekosaur: :( Thats rough, reading up on it doesn't give me much hope for dynamic loading to work out on windows |
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| 21:19:52 | <aegon> | but then if one were to make a haskell game engine you couldn't really define a clean seperation point for character or game mode logic to be reimplimented externally for mods |
| 21:20:46 | aegon | cries in the corner and makes more coffee to smother the existential despair |
| 21:20:47 | <sm> | how do you mean aegon ? |
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| 21:21:58 | <sm> | oh, you're thinking about plugin user modules written in haskell to be loaded by game |
| 21:22:17 | <aegon> | quake 3 had a cool trick where it defined functions for the core engine to call to play out game logic, modders could do crazy stuff with mods because it didn't have to be handled by some engine scripting language, they could literally write new dll's / so's that implemented the exposed functions to be loaded at runtime and durastically extend or change engine behavior for their mod |
| 21:22:23 | <aegon> | yeah |
| 21:22:47 | <aegon> | i was hoping someday to experiment with recreating that sort of thing in haskell, but the windows issue is a new found roadblock |
| 21:22:57 | <sm> | I'm just trying to have basic sound working for some people without making the app completely uninstallable |
| 21:23:10 | <aegon> | i didn't do my research thoroughly enough, stopped at finding a LoadLibrary path for *nix |
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| 21:24:19 | <sm> | there's the xmonad (and hledger, kind of) solution: make your mod the top level app, have it call the engine |
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| 21:28:12 | <aegon> | thats an interesting work around. Theo nly extra thing that imposes is that if the "mod" was implemented in a differnt language and compiled down you'd need to load the ghc runtime in that and manage its lifecycle |
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| 21:30:21 | <aegon> | i've never tried going that direction (external language -> haskell module). If everything is written in haskell the module as the top level seems the same. Anyone have experience trying to run some haskell code from c or similar war stories :) |
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| 21:35:29 | <sm> | realistically, I think a haskell game would use lua as its extension language |
| 21:35:38 | <sm> | like pandoc |
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| 21:36:17 | <sm> | until we have an easily-embeddable haskellscript |
| 21:37:59 | <geekosaur> | there is a mechanism for running Haskell from C |
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| 21:38:34 | <geekosaur> | the basics are documented in the H2010 Report, ghc's additions are in its user guide |
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| 21:45:49 | <fuzzypixelz> | I found (in Megaparsec.Char.Lexer) this: `data SP = SP !Integer {-# UNPACK #-} !Int` |
| 21:46:16 | <fuzzypixelz> | what are the '!' before the types and the UNPACK extension for ? |
| 21:46:23 | <fuzzypixelz> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/megaparsec-9.2.0/docs/src/Text.Megaparsec.Char.Lexer.html#dotDecimal_ |
| 21:48:22 | <aegon> | fuzzypixelz: strictness annotations and using raw literals i think |
| 21:48:48 | <geekosaur> | UNPACK means the value is stored directly instead of storing a pointer to it |
| 21:48:49 | <aegon> | (no thunks or wrappers, like a struct by value) |
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| 21:49:01 | <aegon> | i'm wrong :P |
| 21:49:42 | <fuzzypixelz> | does UNPACK only apply to the first value? |
| 21:49:45 | <geekosaur> | it only works with simple values (one constructor, and I think it can only have one field as well?) |
| 21:49:50 | <fuzzypixelz> | or .. the second? |
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| 21:50:15 | <geekosaur> | the UNPACK comes before the value to be unpacked. you'd need multiple UNPACK pragmas to unpack multiple fields |
| 21:50:39 | <fuzzypixelz> | and ... what about the !s |
| 21:50:53 | <geekosaur> | anyway this is just an implementation detail that doesn't change usage, just does some manual optimization |
| 21:51:14 | <fuzzypixelz> | oh alright so I don't care for it then |
| 21:51:21 | <geekosaur> | those indicate the field is strict (evaluated immediately when stored, instead of possibly storing a pointer to a computation that produces the final value) |
| 21:51:23 | <fuzzypixelz> | still, would be nice to know |
| 21:51:42 | <geekosaur> | which is what aegon meant by "thunk" |
| 21:52:18 | awpr | adds another bullet point to his imaginary "why we should think about making a Haskell Syntax 2.0" list |
| 21:52:20 | <geekosaur> | basically thunks are how laziness happens: the pointer to a "value" can instead be a pointer to code that computes the value when it's needed |
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| 21:52:47 | <fuzzypixelz> | you mean if I say `SP (2+3) (sum [1..]) it will immediatly start counting instead of later when I want my SP ? |
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| 21:53:07 | <awpr> | it could be called Haskell 2077, because: a) that's when it'd be ready, b) it'd be full of bugs at launch, and c) it'd be very futuristic |
| 21:53:17 | <geekosaur> | fuzzypixelz, yes |
| 21:53:25 | <geekosaur> | which means it would hang |
| 21:53:45 | <geekosaur> | you have to be fairly careful in the presence of strictness |
| 21:54:11 | <geekosaur> | usually we don't annotate things, and the compiler will try to figure out what should be made strict |
| 21:54:16 | <fuzzypixelz> | well strictness is the enemy of laziness afterall |
| 21:54:17 | <awpr> | wait, I think the answer is no: "later when I want my SP", i.e. when you force the SP, is when it'd be evaluated |
| 21:54:20 | <geekosaur> | but sometimes you need to give it some help |
| 21:54:54 | <geekosaur> | the strictness annotation should be applied when the SP is built,m not when it is demanded |
| 21:55:07 | <awpr> | but it doesn't make the SP be forced when it otherwise wouldn't be |
| 21:55:28 | <awpr> | it just makes it so that forcing the SP constructor also forces the fields |
| 21:55:37 | <aegon> | fuzzypixelz: $! is similar but for expressions if you run into it later |
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| 21:57:23 | <awpr> | actually my phrasing was a bit misleading: it makes it so that forcing the thunk that evaluates to an SP constructor must also involve forcing the fields so that they can have been put into that SP constructor |
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| 22:00:09 | <awpr> | not suggesting anything you said was wrong, just that I think you're answering the question from a perspective of assuming "now" = "when the SP is forced", but I suspect the question was asked from a perspective of "now" = "some time earlier than that when the SP thunk is built" |
| 22:00:42 | <dsal> | Argh. This project is using ormolu and I just can't deal with having one word per line. This is a crime against humanity. |
| 22:00:43 | <geekosaur> | yeh, hard to tell from what was asked |
| 22:00:59 | <geekosaur> | but then they might not have thought about the fact that laziness means there's a difference |
| 22:01:22 | <awpr> | o |
| 22:01:22 | <awpr> | r |
| 22:01:22 | <awpr> | m |
| 22:01:22 | <awpr> | o |
| 22:01:22 | <awpr> | l |
| 22:01:23 | <awpr> | u |
| 22:01:28 | <geekosaur> | …laziness can be really difficult to reason about |
| 22:01:37 | <dsal> | OMG, yeah, awpr |
| 22:02:03 | <dsal> | Also one line for ] and then another line for ) -- it somehow doesn't put $ on its own line. |
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| 22:02:07 | Rembane | hands dsal an unormolu |
| 22:03:14 | <jaitoon> | is there anything like this for windows or linux?http://haskellformac.com/ |
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| 22:03:46 | <dsal> | jaitoon: Just use VS Code? |
| 22:05:28 | <geekosaur> | nothing that fancy, no. someone made a start at one (manatee) and promptly vanished into some large corporation |
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| 22:06:20 | <geekosaur> | so it's 10 years dead :( |
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| 22:06:57 | <jaitoon> | that's sad |
| 22:07:09 | <jaitoon> | dsal: is it as good |
| 22:07:11 | <Cajun> | yeah vscode or emacs (its personal preference) is your best bet. the experience isnt even that bad |
| 22:07:24 | <jaitoon> | i'm completely new but i've just been using vim |
| 22:07:56 | <Cajun> | i couldnt imagine what a haskell IDE would even be like.. intellij is so complicated, yet most of it is never used |
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| 22:08:34 | <aegon> | i use neovim and haskell-language-server with nvim.coc and its been good to me |
| 22:09:01 | <Cajun> | yeah vim is a good choice too. a lot of people like vscode/emacs because you get to utilize the HLS for pre-compilation error checking |
| 22:09:19 | <Cajun> | but whatever works *shrug* |
| 22:09:21 | <dsal> | I use emacs, but never got hls working. heh |
| 22:10:06 | <aegon> | i use hls with vim :P |
| 22:10:27 | <hololeap> | hls with kate here |
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| 22:36:40 | <fuzzypixelz> | If I'm writing a Show instance for Type and I have a bunch of constructors where I just want to run show on their inner value, |
| 22:37:17 | <fuzzypixelz> | do I have to type in show (Constructor1 x) = show x, show (Constructor1 y) = show x ... |
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| 22:37:47 | <fuzzypixelz> | given that some _other_ constructors have "custom" behaviour |
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| 22:44:03 | <geekosaur> | first off, custom Show instances are disrecommended becuase Show is best used for debugging, not pretty-printing. There are pretty-printing libraries for that |
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| 22:44:23 | <geekosaur> | second, yes if you *do* do that then you have to write it all out manually |
| 22:45:22 | <fuzzypixelz> | aha! what pretty printing libraries do you recommend? (I really did think Show was peak Haskell) |
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| 22:46:12 | <fuzzypixelz> | but honesly my printing is pretty simple |
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| 22:53:16 | <geekosaur> | the idea behind Show and Read is they work together, so you can feed the output of a Show instance to a Read instance (ideally; this doesn't, for example, work for values with loops in them, of course). it's also often useful for debugging to be able to cut and paste show output into ghci and get a valid expression |
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| 22:54:41 | <geekosaur> | that said, for simple programs it may well be easier to just abuse Show. it just makes your life harder later if you find yourself expanding the program (and I've seen too many "toy" programs turn into something real and important that just grows…) |
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| 22:56:49 | <dsal> | UTCTime et. al. are a great example. If you use that in a data structure and derive Show, you suddenly get output that isn't valid Haskell. |
| 22:58:42 | <sm> | pretty-simple is quite good |
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