Logs on 2021-10-12 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:04:52 | <esrh> | monads amirite |
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| 01:29:35 | <zzz> | what about them? |
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| 01:32:43 | <rootard> | esrh: you're not wrong. |
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| 01:45:25 | <esrh> | thoughts on Data.List(intercalate)? |
| 01:45:30 | <esrh> | yay or nay |
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| 01:49:11 | <pavonia> | As opposed to what? |
| 01:51:35 | <Cajun> | i mean what would be wrong with it other than possibly the usage of lists when it isnt optimal? |
| 01:52:11 | <Cajun> | s/it isnt/lists arent |
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| 02:19:18 | <esrh> | nothing lol i was just kidding, i'm pretty new to haskell and the variety of list functions stuck out to me |
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| 02:29:03 | <slack1256> | When using the rts option -xc , how can I redirect to a file the output? I know that by default it uses stderr, but my app already uses that fd. |
| 02:31:42 | <hololeap> | is it correct that so-called extensible effects have something to do with free monads? I've been eyeballing polysemy since yesterday, and I kind of get how to use it, but what does it have to do with free monads? |
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| 02:41:05 | <hololeap> | I suppose it has something to do with the functor at each layer of the free monad being defined in a type-level list, so it is heterogeneous, as opposed to a static functor `f` forming a "normal" (homogeneous) free monad |
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| 03:40:45 | <lyxia_> | free X means you can interpret it into any (reasonable) X |
| 03:41:04 | lyxia_ | is now known as lyxia |
| 03:42:33 | <razor[m]> | bullshit man |
| 03:43:15 | <lyxia> | so it's kinda the nature of extensible effects that they involve free monads in one way or another |
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| 04:28:10 | <jmcantrell> | when using ghcup, is there a way to tell it not to alter my shell's rc file? |
| 04:33:02 | <jmcantrell> | looks like I can set SHELL to some bogus value, but that seems a bit hacky |
| 04:38:00 | <justsomeguy> | jmcantrell: You can do a manual install instead of the curl ... | sh buisness. https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/install/#manual-install |
| 04:38:34 | <justsomeguy> | I don't think that ghcup touches your shell startup files after the initial setup. Does it? |
| 04:39:38 | <jmcantrell> | I don't think so |
| 04:43:28 | <justsomeguy> | I wonder, if I wanted to design my own alternative to stack/cabal/nix today, what would I need to know? Just how to override GHCs search path? Or is there more? I'd like to understand how all these build tools work. |
| 04:48:42 | <justsomeguy> | Part of the reason I wonder this is because I don't know how stack test finds and executes the test suite, for example. |
| 04:49:30 | <hololeap> | in cabal, it's just defined in the .cabal file for the project |
| 04:50:02 | <sclv> | cabal is both |
| 04:50:28 | <sclv> | a build system and a dep management/orchestration system |
| 04:50:51 | <sclv> | both nix and stack use the build system component |
| 04:51:05 | <sclv> | (aka “Cabal the library”) |
| 04:51:32 | <sclv> | (aka calling Setup.hs) |
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| 05:10:24 | <Phantastes> | :quit |
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| 05:13:17 | <sm> | justsomeguy: ohh.. quite a lot to know |
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| 07:04:01 | <tomsmeding> | jmcantrell: I'm fairly sure the ghcup installer asks before writing stuff to your shell config |
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| 07:06:05 | <mc47> | Hello, how could I link to the "Contents" page using haddock? |
| 07:06:27 | <jmcantrell> | tomsmeding: it doesn't if you have BOOTSTRAP_HASKELL_NONINTERACTIVE set |
| 07:06:46 | <tomsmeding> | ah |
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| 07:43:16 | <maerwald[m]> | Jeremy Cantrell: huh? |
| 07:43:40 | <maerwald[m]> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/blob/master/scripts/bootstrap/bootstrap-haskell#L337 |
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| 07:44:36 | <maerwald[m]> | It doesn't adjust bashrc in non-interactive mode, unless you set ${BOOTSTRAP_HASKELL_ADJUST_BASHRC |
| 07:47:47 | <jmcantrell> | maerwald: this block will modify the shell rc regardless https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/blob/master/scripts/bootstrap/bootstrap-haskell#L379 |
| 07:48:51 | <maerwald[m]> | No |
| 07:49:06 | <maerwald[m]> | Because the valul is 0 |
| 07:52:42 | <jmcantrell> | I’m wondering now if I had BOOTSTRAP_HASKELL_ADJUST_BASHRC set. |
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| 08:09:41 | <kuribas> | Is there a good way to turn off shrinking in quickcheck? |
| 08:10:09 | <merijn> | don't implement a shrink function, like half of people... :p |
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| 08:10:17 | <kuribas> | it's very useful :) |
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| 08:10:24 | <kuribas> | except not for this one testcase. |
| 08:10:33 | <kuribas> | hmm, "forall arbitrary" could work. |
| 08:11:07 | <kuribas> | because for this testcase, the second parameter depends on the value of the first, and shrinking discards that dependency. |
| 08:11:30 | <kuribas> | merijn: why don't people implement it? |
| 08:12:09 | <kuribas> | too much work, or not useful? |
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| 08:19:12 | <tomsmeding> | too much work |
| 08:19:31 | <kuribas> | hmm, it was fairly easy in my case, I just used the existing combinators. |
| 08:19:50 | <tomsmeding> | yes, the amount of work required is not necessarily equal to the amount of work people think it is :p |
| 08:20:07 | <kuribas> | namely shinkList |
| 08:20:23 | <kuribas> | in othercases it seems to be just some boilerplate code. |
| 08:20:41 | <tomsmeding> | also not much tells you to do it in the first place, to be honest. For me personally, I know well that Arbitrary has a method arbitrary, but I consistently forget that it also has shrink |
| 08:20:58 | <tomsmeding> | if you forget to define 'shrink', nothing tells you that you're missing out on functionality |
| 08:21:08 | <kuribas> | right, it will default to no shrinking. |
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| 08:21:12 | <tomsmeding> | yeah |
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| 08:22:24 | <tomsmeding> | conjecture: if 'shrink' was a non-optional method of the type class, half of the people merijn mentioned would now implement shrink, and the other half would complain that they have to write 'shrink = const []' |
| 08:22:49 | <tomsmeding> | s/const []/shrinkNothing/ |
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| 08:30:13 | <kuribas> | that sounds like a more sensible default. |
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| 08:34:51 | <merijn> | kuribas: People forget and the default is bad |
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| 08:39:51 | <kuribas> | is there another possible default? |
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| 08:41:05 | <merijn> | There was a talk I saw on hedgehog (I think?) where it forces you to implement shrinking |
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| 08:48:25 | <sshine> | Hedgehog does the shrinking for you |
| 08:48:46 | <sshine> | https://www.fpcomplete.com/blog/quickcheck-hedgehog-validity/ |
| 08:48:54 | <kuribas> | sshine: that looks impossible for the general case |
| 08:49:33 | <sshine> | I'm not saying it's without problems. |
| 08:49:56 | <sshine> | from tfa: "Hedgehog explicitly makes a tradeoff when it comes to shrinking. The Hedgehog authors chose to make shrinking sub-optimal in order to build it into generators. |
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| 08:50:58 | <kuribas> | then it doesn't do it for you, but it requires you to make a generator in such a way that it can do shrinking. |
| 08:52:26 | <sshine> | well, you don't think much about the shrinking when you do the generator. |
| 08:53:02 | <sshine> | you do think more about the generator, though. because the range objects that describe the probability distribution are explicit. |
| 08:53:11 | <sshine> | (an alternative to the size param) |
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| 09:05:07 | <jackdk> | Is there an easy way to ask `cabal` to consider package candidates when solving dependencies? |
| 09:05:23 | <merijn> | jackdk: There's an overlay you can use |
| 09:05:30 | <merijn> | But I'll be damned if I remember how :p |
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| 09:22:11 | <ocramz> | o/ |
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| 09:23:48 | <ocramz> | what's a good syntax for counting binders of a simply-typed lambda calculus at the type level? I'm thinking of a simple AST with only 'let', no beta reduction |
| 09:24:47 | <ocramz> | other than 'let', the operations would be only arithmetic basically |
| 09:27:32 | <ocramz> | I'm trying with GADT syntax: ALet :: KnownNat n => v -> (v -> AST n v) -> AST (1 + n) v |
| 09:27:45 | <merijn> | oof |
| 09:27:52 | <merijn> | Have you looked at Bound? |
| 09:27:54 | <merijn> | @hackage bound |
| 09:27:54 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bound |
| 09:28:53 | <ocramz> | I have, in the past, but as everything in the Kmettoverse, I need something simpler |
| 09:29:06 | <ocramz> | merijn : what's the 'oof' for? |
| 09:29:08 | <merijn> | your solution is...a billion times harder |
| 09:29:17 | <ocramz> | please elaborate |
| 09:29:36 | <merijn> | ocramz: Dealing with KnownNat and type level math is super painful |
| 09:30:05 | <ocramz> | I know, this is why I specified 'no beta reduction': the counter only goes up |
| 09:32:10 | <merijn> | I mean, why not just "not track that in the type"? That seems much simpler |
| 09:32:51 | <kuribas> | why do people want to do so much type programming in haskell? Usually it's more pain than gain. |
| 09:32:57 | <kuribas> | Is in, almost always. |
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| 09:34:04 | <lortabac> | ocramz: did you have a look at Stitch by Richard Eisenberg? |
| 09:34:47 | <lortabac> | I have a vague memory that it does what you are trying to do |
| 09:39:40 | <maerwald> | kuribas: ego |
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| 09:40:05 | <kuribas> | maerwald: what does that have to do with it? |
| 09:40:23 | <maerwald> | it's satisfying in a weird way when no one else understands your own code |
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| 09:40:38 | <kuribas> | pride perhaps |
| 09:40:51 | <maerwald> | trying to be smart is a pretty common theme in programming |
| 09:40:54 | <maerwald> | in all sorts of ways |
| 09:41:09 | <kuribas> | But it's normal when you're learning, you want to know all the fancy stuff, and use it :) |
| 09:41:21 | <lortabac> | maerwald: I disagree |
| 09:41:40 | <ocramz> | lortabac: yes that's a good suggestion. I'll look at Stitch |
| 09:41:54 | <kuribas> | It's only after you know it you realize that most of the time the simple solution is better. |
| 09:42:53 | <lortabac> | personally I tend to end up with complex type computations when I try to encode invariants in types in the most accurate way |
| 09:43:08 | <kuribas> | lortabac: yeah, I try not to do that. |
| 09:43:08 | <lortabac> | then 99% I give up because it's too complex |
| 09:43:17 | <kuribas> | indeed |
| 09:43:27 | <lortabac> | but the main motivator is certainly not ego nor pride |
| 09:44:00 | <kuribas> | yeah, it's more when you're learning that you take pride in understanding the complicated stuff. |
| 09:44:04 | <lortabac> | it's just following a certain way of representing the business domain and taking it to its extreme consequences |
| 09:44:38 | <maerwald> | I didn't say ego was bad, but I believe it's pretty hard to understand the effects of your own |
| 09:44:48 | <maerwald> | it plays a vital role in learning for sure |
| 09:45:09 | <Franciman> | if you don't do it for teh lulz, then why |
| 09:45:34 | <kuribas> | pride is not a bad thing, it motivates you to get better. |
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| 09:46:50 | <Franciman> | so is pride in being the best |
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| 09:47:14 | <kuribas> | nobody is the best. |
| 09:47:15 | <maerwald> | that's pretty hard in the internet age lol |
| 09:47:22 | <maerwald> | gives you burnout quickly |
| 09:47:49 | <Franciman> | go tell your pride that :D |
| 09:47:54 | <kuribas> | pride in being the best is a mental condition. |
| 09:48:00 | <maerwald> | there's alsways someone smarter in Russia |
| 09:48:08 | <lortabac> | :D |
| 09:48:33 | <kuribas> | and it leads to a lot of anxiety |
| 09:48:47 | <maerwald> | I think we turned this into a shrink session |
| 09:49:13 | <kuribas> | maerwald: well, you started about ego :) |
| 09:49:23 | <Franciman> | he is german |
| 09:49:38 | <Franciman> | they started it a long time ago |
| 09:49:45 | <Franciman> | :D |
| 09:51:52 | <kuribas> | I find there is always tension between wanting to learn new stuff, and using it practically. |
| 09:52:34 | <maerwald> | I only learned Haskell, because an internet friend was doing it and I got anxious about him being smarter |
| 09:52:51 | <maerwald> | "damn, I'll show you" |
| 09:53:05 | <Franciman> | ahahah |
| 09:53:07 | <maerwald> | I stopped trying when he moved to Agda |
| 09:53:22 | <Franciman> | that friend was the creator of agda |
| 09:53:41 | <Hecate> | maerwald: and now you're stuck with a kid^W^Wghcup :P |
| 09:53:47 | <maerwald> | crap |
| 09:54:38 | <Franciman> | maerwald: what got you into ghcup at first? |
| 09:54:46 | <Franciman> | trying to emulate stack? |
| 09:55:00 | <maerwald> | Franciman: my own bashrc becoming complicated |
| 09:55:12 | <Franciman> | fair |
| 09:57:17 | <maerwald> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup/-/issues/1 |
| 09:57:26 | <maerwald> | there were a few shell scripts floating around too |
| 09:58:21 | <Franciman> | :') |
| 09:58:43 | <Franciman> | I still fail to see an use for custom built ghcs, like with integer-simple |
| 09:58:51 | <maerwald> | https://github.com/sol/ghc-env |
| 09:58:54 | <Franciman> | but maybe that's because I never program on anything strange |
| 09:58:57 | <maerwald> | don't remember that even |
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| 09:59:29 | <Franciman> | maerwald: I only ever knew about ghcup |
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| 09:59:35 | <Franciman> | because it had the easiset install method |
| 09:59:36 | <Franciman> | :P |
| 09:59:56 | <Franciman> | so being a bash script was a win, over having to run stack, in those ages stack was raging over |
| 10:00:17 | <Franciman> | I was so angry that I could not use it, because I kept forgetting the names of the commands |
| 10:00:29 | <Franciman> | memoeries |
| 10:01:01 | maerwald | goes back to doing type level programming |
| 10:01:49 | <kuribas> | maerwald: you should try idris :) |
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| 10:02:10 | <maerwald> | I tried liquidhaskell |
| 10:02:21 | <Franciman> | that's rad |
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| 10:02:47 | <maerwald> | and F*... which isn't really usable as a general purpose programming language |
| 10:02:57 | <Franciman> | F* the one with effects? |
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| 10:03:29 | <maerwald> | I guess |
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| 10:03:58 | <Franciman> | I've heard lexilambda working on delconts as primitives of ghc |
| 10:04:00 | <Franciman> | hence |
| 10:04:09 | <Franciman> | effects as in efficient effects raging over haskell |
| 10:04:13 | Franciman | can't wait |
| 10:04:15 | <maerwald> | the main issue I have with these things is... the design space is so extremely huge, what are you gonna do with it? |
| 10:04:22 | <maerwald> | Haven't seen anyone address this |
| 10:04:27 | <ocramz> | kuribas : I try to avoid type-level origami as much as I can. In this particular case, I'm working with staged compilation of functions, and I really need to keep track of how many free variables the generated function will have |
| 10:04:29 | <Franciman> | these things -> *? |
| 10:05:04 | <maerwald> | Franciman: dependent types, effects systems, linear types, refinement types, ... |
| 10:05:25 | <Franciman> | they want to get code that's easier to reason about and prove correct |
| 10:05:30 | <kuribas> | ocramz: but why at type level? |
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| 10:05:39 | <maerwald> | Franciman: that's not what I mean with design space |
| 10:05:53 | <Franciman> | oh ok sorry, then I ddidn't get the question |
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| 10:06:03 | <maerwald> | design space is the art of sitting down in front of an empty code editor and getting ideas about what to do |
| 10:06:20 | <Franciman> | ah ahhh |
| 10:06:21 | <Franciman> | ahhh |
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| 10:06:42 | <maerwald> | We have barely figured out the design space of simple functional programming |
| 10:06:59 | <kuribas> | ocramz: if you want to verify it, write it in coq and export to haskell :) |
| 10:07:31 | <Franciman> | does coq eqsport to haskell? |
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| 10:07:40 | <ocramz> | kuribas: thanks, but most likely not. I don't need formal proof in this case |
| 10:07:50 | <Franciman> | that's game changing, who needs haskell anymore then |
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| 10:08:05 | <kuribas> | ocramz: I don't enough about your problem to give a meaningful answer... |
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| 10:09:18 | <ocramz> | kuribas: re. your question why tracking # of binders at the type level. My output is a variadic function, i.e. a -> r , a -> b -> r , etc. The input is an AST that will compile to that |
| 10:09:57 | <ocramz> | I do this by piecing together bits of code with typed template haskell |
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| 10:10:34 | <ocramz> | I mean sure, you don't _need_ type-level stuff for this, but the alternative is building template haskell splices like a caveman |
| 10:10:48 | <kuribas> | ocramz: did you consider generics? |
| 10:11:14 | <kuribas> | ocramz: in particular, I like generics-eot: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/generics-eot-0.4.0.1/docs/Generics-Eot.html |
| 10:12:39 | <ocramz> | kuribas: this is for data though, how are functions constructed with generics? |
| 10:13:10 | <kuribas> | ocramz: instead of returning a variadic function you could return a polymorphic function a -> r, (a, b) -> r, ... |
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| 10:17:08 | <ocramz> | kuribas : I'll need to think about this one. What's the relationship between a, (a, b), (a, b, c) then? a type family? |
| 10:17:46 | <kuribas> | ocramz: a typeclass? |
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| 10:23:03 | <maerwald> | do we have a syscall sandbox in haskell? |
| 10:23:54 | <ocramz> | maerwald : that would be handy |
| 10:24:02 | <ocramz> | not that I know of though |
| 10:25:42 | <maerwald> | who do I pay to do this? |
| 10:25:52 | <ocramz> | Well Typed ? |
| 10:25:59 | <maerwald> | good call |
| 10:26:49 | <maerwald> | maybe lambdabot already has something like it? |
| 10:29:20 | <ocramz> | maerwald : for sure. mueval too : there was this "safe IO" |
| 10:29:29 | <ocramz> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mueval |
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| 10:29:55 | <ocramz> | sorry I had the wrong string in my paste buffer |
| 10:30:27 | <maerwald> | seems like it's more of some trickery than an actual sandbox |
| 10:30:31 | <maerwald> | and doesn't support IO |
| 10:30:55 | <ocramz> | the only safe IO is no IO at all |
| 10:31:09 | <maerwald> | you can restrict syscalls |
| 10:32:03 | <maerwald> | https://git.exherbo.org/sydbox-1.git/tree/ |
| 10:32:43 | <ocramz> | what are we looking at here |
| 10:32:57 | <maerwald> | here's another one https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/sandbox.git/tree/ |
| 10:33:29 | <maerwald> | you can restrict network, filesystem access to certain directories etc |
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| 10:34:30 | <maerwald> | https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v4.16/userspace-api/seccomp_filter.html |
| 10:35:27 | <maerwald> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hsseccomp-0.1.0.2 outdated bindings |
| 10:36:51 | <maerwald> | but Linus said "we never break user space" |
| 10:36:55 | <maerwald> | so should just work, right? |
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| 10:40:29 | <ocramz> | maerwald : this seems relevant https://hsyl20.fr/home/posts/2014-04-01-libc-considered-harmful.html |
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| 10:43:13 | <maerwald> | just gonna throw money in some directions |
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| 11:22:37 | <merijn> | maerwald: If only linux supported OpenBSD's pledge |
| 11:23:26 | <merijn> | Incidentally, that libc post wouldn't work on OpenBSD anymore |
| 11:23:47 | <merijn> | Apparently OpenBSD now kills any process that tries to make syscalls from anything other than libc... |
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| 11:56:27 | <fendor_> | can I have two instances of a typeclass where one has more constraints than the other? Intention is basically a typelevel pattern match, if this type satisfies the given constraints, use this implementation, otherwise use the other. (or a an explicit instance for that type) |
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| 11:58:08 | <merijn> | fendor: No, not if you plan to remain sane (and maybe not even if you're willing to sacrifice your sanity) |
| 11:58:34 | <merijn> | fendor: tbh, it sounds like what you want is "can I have a default implementation based on another typeclass Foo with the option to override it", though |
| 11:59:00 | <fendor> | yeah true I guess, so a default method might work? |
| 11:59:40 | <merijn> | default method *will* work, with the caveat that your forced to explicitly write "instance MyClass Bar" to define the instance when using the default version |
| 11:59:48 | <merijn> | Small price to pay to preserve your sanity, though |
| 11:59:59 | <fendor> | yeah, that seems sensible |
| 12:01:06 | <merijn> | At the very least it will be much more robust and maintainable than any type-level, constraint-based dispatch :p |
| 12:01:15 | <fendor> | awesome, thanks! |
| 12:01:50 | <merijn> | fendor: I use DefaultSignatures to great effect for exactly this case here: https://github.com/merijn/validated-literals/blob/master/ValidLiterals.hs#L86-L88 |
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| 12:41:04 | <sshine> | counting binders? |
| 12:41:18 | <sshine> | oops, chronologically challenged. |
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| 12:48:16 | <merijn> | Not necessarily chronologically challenged, more temporally challenged :p |
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| 13:22:25 | <dexterfoo> | what flag do i pass to ghci to ignore .ghc.environment file? |
| 13:22:31 | <hololeap> | what would be the recommended library to use to create an oscilloscope visual in haskell? something with gl? |
| 13:23:47 | <geekosaur> | hololeap, possibly diagrams? |
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| 13:48:31 | <hololeap> | I need something that can do splines |
| 13:48:42 | <hololeap> | and a decent framerate |
| 13:49:36 | <geekosaur> | yeh, you're probably talking something gl-based. althoiugh I understand gloss has a poor frame rate |
| 13:50:35 | <fryguybob> | hololeap: What kind of splines? |
| 13:51:38 | <hololeap> | the normal kind? i'm not sure. I wanted to do a visual of a fourier transform over a sliding window of an audio file |
| 13:52:18 | <hololeap> | maybe I should use gnuradio... |
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| 13:53:14 | <hololeap> | if anyone is familiar with gnuradio's qt visualization widgets, that's kind of what I'm going for |
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| 13:55:40 | <fryguybob> | hololeap: Like this: https://wiki.gnuradio.org/images/f/f0/Freq-sink-ex.png ? |
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| 13:56:28 | <hololeap> | yeah although they have an averaging function that makes it look more smooth |
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| 13:58:13 | <fryguybob> | hololeap: Like the top of this: https://github.com/xmikos/qspectrumanalyzer ? |
| 13:59:07 | <hololeap> | yeah |
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| 14:00:09 | <fryguybob> | My guess is they are not using splines for that. Maybe some other averaging to smooth, but the results look good because of antialiasing more than anything else. |
| 14:00:41 | <hololeap> | hm, ok |
| 14:01:19 | <fryguybob> | Splines don't do very well with a high density of points. |
| 14:02:08 | <fryguybob> | They are modeling a "low energy path" through the points and having a lot of points constrains that path too much so all the paths are pretty high energy. |
| 14:02:22 | <fryguybob> | At least, that is one way to think of splines. |
| 14:02:29 | <hololeap> | I was thinking splines after the averaging function |
| 14:04:05 | <fryguybob> | For the example you would need subpixel points at which point linear interpolation would give better results. |
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| 14:17:45 | <ocramz_> | o/ |
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| 14:28:32 | <hololeap> | fryguybob: that was a good explanation. I might end up using gpipe-glfw if I can figure it out |
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| 14:40:30 | <fryguybob> | hololeap: No problem. Note that getting anti-aliasing right can be tricky, you might have to care about alpha channels and how they are combined and the order of things. |
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| 15:44:40 | <kuribas> | or use a library that can draw a polyline antialiased? |
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| 15:51:23 | <hololeap> | kuribas: such as what? |
| 15:52:09 | <kuribas> | SDL? |
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| 15:55:27 | <kuribas> | https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL_HINT_RENDER_SCALE_QUALITY |
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| 16:02:36 | <monochrom> | boo, RecordWildCards does not enable wildcards in record updates sob sob |
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| 16:19:21 | <sm> | it does, I think monochrom ? |
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| 16:19:46 | <sm> | I've seen let a=1, b=2 in foo{..}, at least |
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| 16:25:12 | <hololeap> | kuribas: thanks |
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| 17:22:23 | <maerwald> | how do you find the location of the cabal config? |
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| 17:55:42 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: Judging from the code, I think you have to mimic its behavior |
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| 17:56:14 | <maerwald> | yeah, can run `cabal config init` and then read stdout lol |
| 17:56:23 | <dminuoso> | Which is either CABAL_DIR or https://hackage.haskell.org/package/directory-1.3.7.0/docs/System-Directory.html#v:getAppUserDataDirectory |
| 17:56:30 | <dminuoso> | Ah, or that I guess |
| 17:56:52 | <dminuoso> | maerwald: You can also just default to CABAL_DIR, and if not set mimic getAppUserDataDirectory "cabal" behavior |
| 17:57:06 | <dminuoso> | See src/Distribution/Client/Config.hs if need be |
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| 17:57:29 | <maerwald> | I was just trying to find the cabal config location in github windows actions env |
| 17:57:39 | <dminuoso> | %APPDATA%/cabal then |
| 17:57:45 | <maerwald> | appears it's 'C:\Users\runneradmin\AppData\Roaming\cabal\config' |
| 17:57:49 | <dminuoso> | Yes. |
| 17:57:57 | <dminuoso> | As per getAppUserDataDirectory "cabal" |
| 17:57:57 | <maerwald> | and chocolatey doesn't seem to create one |
| 17:58:23 | <maerwald> | which I find a little confusing, because how does it expose msys2 to cabal? |
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| 18:05:39 | <maerwald> | indeed, it doesn't add it |
| 18:05:44 | <maerwald> | now I'm confused |
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| 18:06:48 | <sclv> | maerwald: i think its the "haskell development environment" or similar that does it? i.e. not just cabal on its own |
| 18:06:48 | <sclv> | https://community.chocolatey.org/packages/haskell-dev#individual |
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| 18:07:08 | <maerwald> | that's not installed in actions/virtual-environments I guess |
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| 18:22:07 | <sm> | huh, new windows package manager coming: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28829716 |
| 18:22:58 | <maerwald> | 40 years late or so |
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| 18:25:27 | <justsomeguy> | I'm so glad I don't have to use Windows anymore. |
| 18:26:41 | <shapr> | same here, but most computer users do use Windows |
| 18:27:24 | <Franciman> | lately i've been told microsoft is more secure than linux |
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| 18:27:32 | <Franciman> | that may be a selling point for some |
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| 18:28:32 | <geekosaur> | with their record, I'm not sure I believe it. and their code signing is a joke |
| 18:28:54 | <maerwald> | I've been considering to switch to windows for a while, just so my thinkpad finally has working thermal throttling and suspend to ram |
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| 18:30:52 | <justsomeguy> | maerwald: https://tinyapps.org/blog/201811300700_windows_10_ltsc.html |
| 18:31:34 | <maerwald> | how does that help me broken linux hardware support? :) |
| 18:31:45 | <maralorn> | I am looking for a configuration language I can easily parse with haskell. I don‘t think I need it to be strongly typed, but I needs to be able to represent a tree. |
| 18:32:11 | <maerwald> | yaml |
| 18:32:31 | <justsomeguy> | maerwald: It doesn't, but at least if you have to use windows you can get an installation that probably harvests less of your personal information. |
| 18:33:27 | <maerwald> | yeah, I'm sure google-chrome on fedora doesn't harvest my cookies :p |
| 18:33:55 | <geekosaur> | there is of course chromium |
| 18:33:56 | <maerwald> | (although I'm using brave these days) |
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| 18:35:21 | <geekosaur> | of course I use enough other google stuff (gmail, keep, etc.) that I just use google-chrome and let big brother protect me :þ |
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| 18:36:07 | <maerwald> | if you have a mobile phone... what's the point of pretending you have privacy? |
| 18:36:35 | <Franciman> | I try to avoid using the computer for anything except coding and reading |
| 18:36:45 | <Franciman> | if they steal my pc, they do me a favour |
| 18:36:49 | <Franciman> | so I stop using it for a while |
| 18:36:57 | <maerwald> | they? |
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| 18:37:11 | <Franciman> | i don't know how to speak in english |
| 18:37:12 | <Franciman> | sorry |
| 18:37:22 | <justsomeguy> | I wish my pinephone's battery lasted longer than 20 minutes. Then I could ditch my android smartphone. |
| 18:37:25 | <Franciman> | i keep getting the pronouns wrong |
| 18:37:55 | <Franciman> | when my programming language is done, I will abstain from coding |
| 18:37:57 | <Franciman> | forever |
| 18:38:03 | <Franciman> | and just close everything |
| 18:38:09 | <Franciman> | life goals |
| 18:38:09 | <maerwald> | and do what? |
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| 18:38:56 | <Franciman> | no idea :O |
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| 18:40:07 | <maerwald> | when you think you burned out it takes 3 months tops to figure out you actually are bored-out |
| 18:40:16 | <maerwald> | thin line |
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| 18:48:36 | <sm> | maralorn: would https://glguy.net/config-demo work ? |
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| 18:51:30 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: config-schema from glguy gets my vote too. |
| 18:51:34 | <dminuoso> | It's absolutely lovely. |
| 18:51:47 | <dminuoso> | Im not entirely sure it would support a tree though. |
| 18:51:57 | <dminuoso> | Well, config-value would at least. |
| 18:52:27 | <maerwald> | so I assume it doesn't have yaml anchors? |
| 18:53:01 | <maralorn> | thx, will evaluate it. |
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| 18:53:10 | <maerwald> | I'm still looking for something to deduplicate large yaml files without resorting to dhall |
| 18:53:20 | <sm> | dminuoso: what do you enjoy about it ? |
| 18:53:21 | <maerwald> | simple templating |
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| 18:53:40 | <sm> | maerwald: m4 ? |
| 18:53:45 | <maerwald> | lol |
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| 18:54:27 | <sm> | I'd say it's a good option if you don't have to change your templates much |
| 18:54:31 | <dminuoso> | sm: I get a really simple way to specify a config schema, derive a parser with decent diagnostics from it, and also have a way to output matching documentation. |
| 18:54:36 | <sm> | write once :) |
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| 18:54:41 | <dminuoso> | It's similarly convenient like servant |
| 18:54:51 | <dminuoso> | Except its much simpler to use |
| 18:55:03 | <dminuoso> | Or perhaps its sort of like optparse-applicative |
| 18:55:09 | <dminuoso> | yeah I think that comparison works better. |
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| 18:55:45 | <sm> | dminuoso: thanks, good to hear |
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| 18:59:37 | <maerwald> | so what are the dhall alternatives |
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| 19:01:24 | <maerwald> | https://github.com/bazelbuild/starlark |
| 19:01:27 | <maerwald> | oops |
| 19:01:39 | <maerwald> | your config interpreted |
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| 19:04:11 | <maerwald> | oh, jsonnet |
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| 19:05:31 | <maralorn> | Can I generate config-value from nix? |
| 19:06:18 | <maerwald> | oh, there is yaml templating: https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/carvel-ytt |
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| 19:09:29 | <a6a45081-2b83> | So I'm parsing a json and have an optional key-value pair, where I have modelled the value as Maybe String. I want to now also include a list of key values to the value, i.e. `V = Nothing | Just value | Just Map String String` |
| 19:09:48 | <a6a45081-2b83> | should I use `Maybe (Either String (Map String String))`? |
| 19:11:34 | <monochrom> | V = Zero | One String | Many (Map String String) |
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| 19:15:06 | <maerwald> | Sounds like `Map String String` would theoretically work :p |
| 19:15:46 | <maerwald> | [] -> Zero, [("", "yo")] -> One, the other -> Many |
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| 19:21:06 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: There's no builtin primitives. And its not a superset of JSON either, so.. |
| 19:21:34 | <dminuoso> | And there wouldn't be anything native sensibly, as you can have arbitrary atoms |
| 19:21:53 | <dminuoso> | But it shouldn't be too much of a hassle to write some toMyConfigSchema function |
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| 19:21:55 | <dminuoso> | In nix |
| 19:22:09 | <a6a45081-2b83> | I am wondering how will I write FromJSON for V. i.e. `{}` (Nothing), `{"key": "value"}` (Just value), `{"key": {"key1": "value1", ...}}` (Map String String) |
| 19:22:13 | <dminuoso> | The main problem is that you'd have to encode some kind of schema in nix too |
| 19:24:37 | <maerwald> | a6a45081-2b83: parse the value depending on the key-name |
| 19:25:12 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: Is JSON not working for you? |
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| 19:26:29 | <maralorn> | dminuoso: json will probably work. I just was curious if there was something shiny and new. |
| 19:26:45 | <isovector1> | does anyone have a good understanding of how kind-generics represents existentials? |
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| 19:27:31 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: Well you can also go builtins.toDhall |
| 19:27:40 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: So that's the shiny/new way. |
| 19:27:51 | <dminuoso> | But I dont think "shiny/new" is a particularly good requirement. |
| 19:28:08 | <dminuoso> | It's better if you have technical/implementation requirements instead. |
| 19:28:23 | <dminuoso> | Sorry wait, toDhall is in lib/generators.nix, not builtins |
| 19:28:52 | <a6a45081-2b83> | I was thinking to pattern match in the FromJSON instance of V, i.e. instance FromJSON V where {parseJSON (Text t) = One t; parseJSON (Object v) = Many (parseJSON v)} |
| 19:28:55 | <a6a45081-2b83> | something like this |
| 19:29:06 | <maralorn> | dminuoso: Wouldn‘t "I want to smoothly represent a tree" prevent me from using dhall? |
| 19:29:31 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: What does "smoothly represent a tree" even mean? |
| 19:29:32 | <maerwald> | a6a45081-2b83: there are many ways to do it, yeah |
| 19:29:43 | <maerwald> | why not use stock deriving? |
| 19:30:27 | <dminuoso> | maralorn: Anything JSON-like, except null, can be turned into Dhall - and then the json or dhall representations are equivalent. |
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| 19:30:58 | <dminuoso> | You can turn attrsets, lists, numbers and bools into dhall. What more do you want? |
| 19:31:16 | <dminuoso> | But like I said. Without knowing what you're trying to solve, Im not convinced Dhall is the best. |
| 19:31:25 | <dminuoso> | JSON is easy enough to parse from Haskell, has builtin support in nix |
| 19:31:30 | <dminuoso> | And if it works, Id just go with that. |
| 19:31:43 | <dminuoso> | Just be careful with numbers appropriately (encode them via strings if necessary) |
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| 19:32:45 | <maralorn> | [ { name: "Firefox", command: "/usr/bin/firefox" } { name: "Chatapps", menu: [ { name: "Element", command: "element-desktop" } ] ] |
| 19:33:01 | <maralorn> | I want to write something like that. |
| 19:33:29 | <maralorn> | Basically a list and every element is a command or a menu. Were a menu is again a list like that. |
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| 19:34:12 | <maralorn> | And from what I remember writing a dhall type for that is basically impossible. |
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| 19:53:35 | <koz> | Is adding a new dependency a major or minor bump by PVP? |
| 19:54:27 | <razor[m]> | no ehy u think so |
| 19:54:44 | <monochrom> | I think a point bump. |
| 19:54:45 | <razor[m]> | it has always been a nice interchange |
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| 19:55:09 | <koz> | monochrom: Sorry, what do you mean by a 'point bump'? |
| 19:55:20 | <monochrom> | Less than minor. |
| 19:55:22 | <awpr> | don't think PVP considers that to change the package's API at all, so I'd say it's a fourth-component bump |
| 19:55:37 | <awpr> | but if it adds instances for that package, then minor version IIRC |
| 19:55:41 | <monochrom> | major1.major2.minor.point |
| 19:55:44 | <maerwald> | four or 3 are the same, no? |
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| 19:55:48 | <maerwald> | lol |
| 19:55:54 | <maerwald> | that sounded stupid |
| 19:56:06 | <koz> | OK, thanks. |
| 19:56:13 | maerwald | sees himself out |
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| 19:58:20 | <monochrom> | I actually agree with major1.major2 acknowledging that there is a social, cultural difference between "not backward compatible but in a small way" and "not backward compatible but in a revolutionary way" |
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| 19:59:10 | <monochrom> | A major flaw of most programmers is they pretend that there is nothing other than technicalities. |
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| 19:59:30 | <monochrom> | (Pun intended haha) |
| 20:01:36 | <maerwald> | the point of PVP is for someone to be able to ship bugfixes to older versions, but I've never seen anyone do that :D |
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| 20:01:53 | <geekosaur> | ghc? |
| 20:02:02 | <maerwald> | it's not even strictly PVP |
| 20:02:12 | <geekosaur> | true |
| 20:02:21 | <awpr> | I've made transitional versions with minor version bumps to let packages support two consecutive small-major versions |
| 20:02:35 | <geekosaur> | I think they're regretting most of the violations though (looking at you 8.10.5) |
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| 20:03:24 | <maerwald> | I'd rather forge alliances and understand maintainers of the stuff I depend on, rather than assume communicating through a string is gonna be enough |
| 20:03:39 | <maerwald> | but that sounds crazy I guess |
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| 20:04:04 | <awpr> | do alliances and mutual understanding help Cabal make correct build plans? |
| 20:04:26 | <maerwald> | during the year of the rabbit yes |
| 20:04:27 | <awpr> | my understanding is PVP is for build plans and alliances are for collaborating on evolving code |
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| 20:05:22 | <geekosaur> | maerwald, you need only look at the dependencies of lens to see how that one fails |
| 20:06:11 | <geekosaur> | (yes, you do need to consider transitive dependencies) |
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| 20:07:14 | <maerwald> | many companies just use git hashes :p |
| 20:07:23 | <maerwald> | rolling hashes |
| 20:07:29 | <geekosaur> | god help you when someone force pushes |
| 20:07:51 | <maerwald> | why? |
| 20:08:42 | <geekosaur> | seriously? because the hash you depend on is only in the reflog after that, you can't check it out any more |
| 20:08:50 | <maerwald> | force pushing doesn't remove a git commit from the server |
| 20:09:03 | <maerwald> | unless you run a GC |
| 20:09:27 | <maerwald> | for stuff like github, I think they keep it indefinitely |
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| 20:11:27 | <maerwald> | a new clone probably doesn't pull it, yeah |
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| 20:12:50 | <geekosaur> | of course what this really tells you is "force pushing is bad, mmmkay?" |
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| 20:13:21 | <geekosaur> | which is not to say I haven't done it, but I make sure I'm not stepping on any toes first |
| 20:14:18 | <geekosaur> | and only on pull requests, not regular branches |
| 20:14:43 | <geekosaur> | once it's landed I consider it immutable because I have nfc who might have pulled it |
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| 20:18:12 | <maerwald> | I'll switch to bazaar |
| 20:19:24 | <maerwald> | you can use it on svannah I believe https://savannah.gnu.org/ |
| 20:19:31 | <maerwald> | modern interface, screw github |
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| 20:20:55 | <maerwald> | there are job postings even |
| 20:21:23 | <maerwald> | https://savannah.gnu.org/people/?category_id=1 no haskell dev though |
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| 20:38:56 | <Franciman> | maerwald: srsly |
| 20:39:07 | <maerwald> | xD |
| 20:41:04 | <Franciman> | i like your stance |
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| 21:05:27 | <Guest|8> | hi, how can i uninstall haskell from windows? (cant find it on 'Add Or Remove Programs') |
| 21:06:19 | <zzz> | Guest|8: honestly? Linux subsystem |
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| 21:08:37 | <sm> | how did you install it ? |
| 21:09:29 | <zzz> | oh sorry. i read "install" |
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| 21:13:20 | <Guest|8> | from the official site - > https://www.haskell.org/downloads/ |
| 21:14:03 | <Guest|8> | used powershell with the command Set-ExecutionPolicy Bypass -Scope Process -Force;[System.Net.ServicePointManager]::SecurityProtocol = [System.Net.ServicePointManager]::SecurityProtocol -bor 3072;Invoke-Command -ScriptBlock ([ScriptBlock]::Create((Invoke-WebRequest https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/sh/bootstrap-haskell.ps1 -UseBasicParsing))) |
| 21:14:04 | <Guest|8> | -ArgumentList $true |
| 21:16:18 | <maerwald> | Guest|8: there should be a desktop shortcut |
| 21:16:33 | <Guest|8> | its crashing when trying to create shortcut on some unexisting folder and when im trying to "reinstall" (while trying the command again) its crashing again |
| 21:17:06 | <maerwald> | it's failing to create the desktop shortcuts? |
| 21:17:47 | <maerwald> | more information please |
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| 21:17:50 | <Guest|8> | it's failing to create a shortcut on some folder, its not the desktop one |
| 21:18:05 | <maerwald> | logs/screenshots |
| 21:18:39 | <maerwald> | usually there should be a "Uninstall Haskell" shortcut on your desktop |
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| 21:20:25 | <Guest|8> | There's nothing there |
| 21:20:40 | <Guest|8> | Uploaded file: https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/b00a9313b1c6361da8637e19aebea40a/image.png |
| 21:21:00 | <maerwald> | well, so it does fail installing the desktop shortcuts |
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| 21:21:05 | <Guest|8> | i get this error when the downoad fails |
| 21:22:20 | <maerwald> | Guest|8: which windows version? |
| 21:22:36 | <Guest|8> | 10 |
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| 21:23:04 | <maerwald> | Guest|8: can you run this in your powershell: [Environment]::GetFolderPath("Desktop") |
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| 21:23:53 | <Guest|8> | yeah |
| 21:23:58 | <Guest|8> | wait |
| 21:24:06 | × | kmein quits (~weechat@user/kmein) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 21:24:15 | <Guest|8> | no *O* |
| 21:24:16 | × | Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 21:24:21 | <maerwald> | what? |
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| 21:25:16 | <Guest|8> | oh well the func doesnt recognized |
| 21:25:25 | <Guest|8> | I'll try something |
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| 21:25:40 | <maerwald> | this is official windows API... there's something wrong if it doesn't work |
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| 21:44:51 | <Guest|8> | THANK YOU SO MUCH |
| 21:44:55 | <Guest|8> | ITS WORKING |
| 21:44:56 | <maerwald> | ? |
| 21:45:14 | <maerwald> | why |
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| 21:47:03 | <Guest|8> | the location was saved in my home language, with you ive fix it |
| 21:47:15 | <maerwald> | uhm |
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| 21:47:33 | <maerwald> | what was the fix? |
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| 21:48:26 | <monochrom> | Oh, do you mean "Desktop" is English, but your Windows is not using English? |
| 21:48:38 | <Guest|8> | changing the location to the default |
| 21:48:51 | <maerwald> | but why can't windows handle it? |
| 21:48:55 | <maerwald> | It's UTF-16 |
| 21:49:21 | <Guest|8> | well idk |
| 21:49:50 | <Guest|8> | but its now wotking, so i I guess its al good |
| 21:50:14 | <maerwald> | I still don't like the taste of it |
| 21:50:21 | <geekosaur> | sounds like a bug to be fixed to me |
| 21:50:31 | <geekosaur> | need to find out more though |
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| 21:50:44 | <geekosaur> | what language is your normal locale? |
| 21:50:46 | <maerwald> | maybe encoding was mixed somehow |
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| 21:51:22 | <Guest|8> | idk |
| 21:51:50 | <Guest|8> | hebrew |
| 21:51:56 | <Guest|8> | אימאמלד אים |
| 21:52:00 | <Guest|8> | thanks tho |
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| 21:53:21 | <awpr> | just witnessed a https://xkcd.com/979/ in the making |
| 21:53:26 | <maerwald> | https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/code-quality/ca1302?view=vs-2019 |
| 21:53:33 | <maerwald> | lol |
| 21:54:50 | <maerwald> | I'll ask over in #powershell |
| 21:55:15 | <monochrom> | I bet it's Environment.SpecialFolder.Desktop :) |
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| 21:57:08 | <maerwald> | I'm wondering what else might be broken |
| 21:57:12 | <maerwald> | this can't be the only thing |
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| 22:09:30 | <zzz> | have i mentioned WSL? oh i have... carry on |
| 22:10:10 | <monochrom> | WSL doesn't help build exes for Windows |
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| 22:12:13 | <maerwald> | if only one could reasonably cross-compile for windows |
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| 22:13:16 | <zzz> | monochrom: the point is to bypass windows completely |
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| 22:14:06 | <monochrom> | That's probably not up to you are me to impose. |
| 22:14:14 | <monochrom> | err, s/are/or/ |
| 22:14:53 | <monochrom> | <sarcastic>Sure, wouldn't the world be simpler if everyone did everything my way?</sarcastic> |
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| 22:17:22 | <hpc> | procrastination is compatible with all operating systems |
| 22:17:37 | <jackdk> | monochrom: I agree, the world would be simpler if everyone did everything my way. |
| 22:18:06 | <int-e> | operating systems do a ton of shit on demand |
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| 22:21:31 | <maerwald> | https://hastebin.com/raw/isugajeruh <- apparently that's the solution lol |
| 22:21:44 | <maerwald> | windows api is beautiful |
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| 22:23:56 | <monochrom> | Yikes haha handwritten GUID |
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| 22:26:15 | <hpc> | the guid format is already ridiculous, what's taking it a little bit further |
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| 22:30:50 | <arahael> | maerwald: I see that rule has been "deprecated" (that one you posted 30 min ago) |
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| 22:55:00 | <maralorn> | Can someone tell me, what the Haskell equivalent of this function is? https://docs.rs/fork/0.1.18/fork/fn.daemon.html |
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| 22:56:51 | <hpc> | if you search "daemon" on hackage it'll probably come up |
| 23:01:40 | <maralorn> | hpc: thx. Apparently it’s System.Posix.Daemon.runDetached from deamons |
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| 23:07:13 | <maralorn> | Another question how can I get "exec" behavior in Haskell. I would like to terminate my process and run another command instead. |
| 23:07:51 | <hpc> | System.Process probably has it |
| 23:09:03 | <hpc> | you should spend some time just exploring hackage, looking for the usual things and neat other stuff |
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| 23:09:35 | <hpc> | like for arg parsing you can go the usual getopt way, or use optparse-applicative |
| 23:09:48 | <maralorn> | I looked through System.Process and I can‘t find it. |
| 23:09:49 | <hpc> | it'll answer a lot of these questions before you even know to ask them :D |
| 23:11:11 | <hpc> | ah, hmm |
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| 23:12:38 | <hpc> | maybe the unix package? |
| 23:14:13 | <maralorn> | Hah, yeah. executeFile |
| 23:14:36 | <maralorn> | Not as flexible as I had hoped for, but better than nothing. |
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| 23:14:52 | <sm> | I see one in rio I think: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rio-0.1.21.0/docs/RIO-Process.html#v:exec |
| 23:15:59 | <hpc> | it seems to be as powerful as execvpe |
| 23:16:33 | <maralorn> | Yeah, it can do what I want. |
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