Logs on 2021-10-13 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:16:08	<sm>	ansi-terminal-game is in https://www.stackage.org/nightly-2021-10-12
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01:20:44	<sm>	and I have persuaded hls to work on my thing
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01:45:18	<sm>	oops. Wrong chan.
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07:04:43	<arjun>	uhm, so, what's the prefered way set bounds on the packages when starting a new project
07:05:02	<arjun>	can't really be manually go to hackage and check the latest version ?
07:05:15	<arjun>	RITE
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07:08:57	<sm>	arjun: it depends how much you want building your thing to be hassle-free
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07:09:56	<sm>	..and compatible with a wide range of libs/ghcs
07:11:06	<arjun>	sm: lol wut
07:11:47	<arjun>	those both sound like good desirable things
07:11:53	<sm>	how much work do you want to put in ?
07:12:01	<arjun>	=.=
07:12:33	<arjun>	uhm, low - to fair amount i guess ?
07:12:35	<sm>	(as I'm writing, I'm realising it's not a simple topic)
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07:13:36	<sm>	it's a good idea prioritise. Focus on lower bounds, and the GHC version you're using, first
07:14:26	<arjun>	by manually going to hackage and checking the vesion number ?
07:14:30	<sm>	in fact, focus on base bounds (lower and upper) first. That also constrains the GHC version.
07:14:52	<sm>	https://wiki.haskell.org/Base_package tells which base versions go with which GHC
07:14:57	<arjun>	i meant to ask. that's how this stuff is usually done ?
07:15:25	<arjun>	i want say time, text, bytestring, optparse-applicative etc
07:15:50	<arjun>	i'd put them in cabal, and then lower bound them by hackage searches ?
07:16:26	<sm>	this is how I do it, but as I say there's quite a lot to it. I'd start with the GHC version you're using, and set base bounds that fit that. Then add some bounds to other deps. Prioritise the ones that have incompatible api changes more often.
07:17:10	<sm>	once you have a robust (tight) set of bounds, as you have time and desire you can test with older/newer versions of things and widen the bounds
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07:17:26	<sm>	that's the conservative, I-want-my-thing-to-always-build approach
07:17:43	<sm>	the other way is don't bother, add bounds when people report build failures
07:20:11	<sm>	some people take a middle road: provide a stack.yaml specifying a stackage snapshot, so even without bounds it's likely to build
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07:22:13	<sm>	it's not the simplest of tasks, but with practice it gets easy. There might also be tools to help, but if so they're not much used
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07:25:12	<sm>	and yes, when choosing bounds for a package you'd look at its versions on hackage, and their upload dates and base bounds and especially the changelog
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07:27:24	<jacks2>	hi
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07:27:53	<fawful>	hello
07:27:55	<jacks2>	isn't it possible to derive Random for a simple sum type?
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07:28:12	<jacks2>	for example data T = Foo \| Bar \| Baz
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07:28:57	<jacks2>	there were some deriving language extensions, but I can't google the extension name. maybe that would help
07:28:58	<fawful>	I'm new to haskell but I thought derive only worked for Show, Read, Ord, and a couple of others
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07:29:28	<jacks2>	I recall deriving Functor automatically a while ago, but I forgot what is the extension's name
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07:29:46	<fawful>	I think it's literally "derivingfunctor"
07:29:54	<fawful>	or something similar
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07:33:18	<jacks2>	ah
07:33:21	<jacks2>	{-# Language DeriveAnyClass #-}
07:33:23	<jacks2>	it works!
07:33:34	<fawful>	oh that's cool
07:33:47	<jacks2>	data Suit = Heart \| Diamond \| Spade \| Club deriving (Show, Read, Eq, Ord, Bounded, Enum, Random)
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07:35:00	<fawful>	that seems like it would make playing around with simple types like taht soo much quicker
07:35:15	<jacks2>	yes
07:35:44	<jacks2>	I'm impressed, it even works for data Card = Card Rank Suit deriving (Show, Read, Eq, Ord, Bounded, Random)
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07:38:38	<jacks2>	odd, it didn't actually work.
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07:39:09	<jacks2>	No explicit implementation for �randomR� and �random� In the instance declaration for �Random Suit�
07:39:26	<jacks2>	and randomIO :: IO Suit gives me No instance nor default method for class operation random
07:39:39	<jacks2>	am I missing some additional code?
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07:40:56	<lortabac>	jacks2: DeriveAnyClass doesn't do anything special, it's just syntactic sugar for an empty instance declaration
07:41:26	<jacks2>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/bjJ6XpZa
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07:41:30	<jacks2>	lortabac oh
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07:41:47	<jacks2>	so it only works with typeclasses that have default implementation
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07:41:52	<lortabac>	yes
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07:42:32	<fawful>	haskell is so cool
07:42:35	<lortabac>	also, DeriveAnyClass can be very confusing, please don't use it unless you make the strategy explicit with DerivingStrategies
07:43:01	<jacks2>	so what should I do, just manually implement Random instance? I can't take advantage of the fact that type is Enum and Bounded?
07:43:19	<lortabac>	but honestly I don't see the point of this extension, it just saves you a couple of characters
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07:44:07	<fawful>	are enum and bounded instances of random?
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07:44:43	<jacks2>	no. they are their own typeclasses. they allow you to do: [Heart .. Club] => [Heart,Diamond,Spade,Club]
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07:45:44	<lortabac>	sorry I am not familiar with this library, maybe there is some function that helps you make a Random instance for types that are Enum and Bounded?
07:45:46	<jacks2>	or more generically, [minBound .. ] :: [Suit]
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07:46:48	<lortabac>	anyway it should be easy to make one, thanks to Enum you can easily map an Int to a constructor
07:46:54	<jacks2>	yeah
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07:48:47	<fawful>	I think I want to learn more about enum and bounded. I feel like they are exactly what I need for something
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07:49:42	<fawful>	anyway just poking my head in, bye bye
07:50:01	<jacks2>	bye
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08:03:19	<jacks2>	I got it working. https://paste.tomsmeding.com/yZYEIvu9
08:04:47	<jacks2>	nd just as I posted, I figured I could replace genericRandom definition with: genericRandom = genericRandomR (minBound, maxBound)
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08:12:32	<jacks2>	this is so cool.. :). allCards = (,) <$> [Two ..] <*> [Heart ..]
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08:14:46	<cads>	type Kaleidoscope a s = ProfOptic Any (->) Any (->) Applicative Nat Compose Identity App App a a s s
08:15:13	cads	proposes we should call this a thick type, because it has that a a s s
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08:16:00	<cads>	in other news how can a type be this unspeakably cursed / how can we rewrite this sort of thing to be more prosaic and readable?
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08:16:26	<cads>	more fun examples here: https://github.com/maxsu/vitrea/blob/master/source/Optics.hs
08:17:13	<cads>	I guess part of why this seems so cursed, on the surface, is that tambara modules are at play, and those are pretty cursed, from a syntax perspective
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08:19:55	<cads>	but I feel like there should be some way to refactor these types so that they don't just read like raging hell symbols
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08:27:18	<cads>	here is an another example of a more primitive code listing written in what I'll call this "profunctorially hectic" style. It /should/ be easier to understand https://github.com/maxsu/vitrea/blob/master/source/CategoriesInstances.hs
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08:28:23	<cads>	What could I do to improve the code? One idea is that I could research and document the undocumented instances.
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09:00:21	<kuribas>	jacks2: welcome to haskell :)
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09:12:03	<famubu>	i was trying to a 'shift' an ascii character by a specified number of positions (like a caesar cipher for a single character) and came up with `shift ch n = chr ((mod (((ord ch) - (ord 'a')) + n) 26) + (ord 'a'))`
09:12:15	<famubu>	Is there a way to reduce the number of parenthesis here?
09:12:16	<kuribas>	Does there exist a Monad over Categories? Then bind' :: someCat (m a) (someCat (someCat a (m b)) (m b))
09:13:01	<famubu>	Had heard of `$` but couldn't figure out how it would be used when there are functions with multiple arguments.
09:13:23	<dminuoso>	cads: You can take a look at optics to get an idea, perhaps
09:13:30	<kuribas>	famubu: shift ch n = chr $ (ord ch - ord 'a' + n) `mod` 26 + ord 'a'
09:14:58	<famubu>	kuribas: Thanks. Much more readable now.
09:15:01	<famubu>	Would there be any advantage in moving the `ord 'a'` part into a `let variable in` section?
09:15:30	<nshepperd2>	kuribas: i think that `mod` is going to have the wrong precedence there...
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09:15:57	<kuribas>	:i mod
09:16:01	<jacks2>	kuribas thanks. I am not that new actually, just don't use haskell regularly, and I enjoy seeing concise code like that
09:16:09	<nshepperd2>	oh, it has an explicit infixl, huh
09:16:37	<kuribas>	"infixl 7 `mod`" "infixl 6 +"
09:17:02	<kuribas>	nshepperd2: otherwise infix is more tight, no?
09:18:08	<nshepperd2>	> 5 `mod` 2 + 3
09:18:10	<lambdabot>	4
09:18:35	<nshepperd2>	scary
09:18:42	<kuribas>	> let foo = mod in 5 `foo` 2 + 3
09:18:44	<lambdabot>	4
09:19:27	<kuribas>	nshepperd2: so it would only fail if mod was made explicitly less strong than (+)
09:19:44	<kuribas>	but mod has same fixity as (*)
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09:20:44	<kuribas>	but if it is hard to reason about fixity, maybe parens are better.
09:20:47	<nshepperd2>	i thought `backticks` were pretty low precedence by default
09:21:26	<nshepperd2>	apparently not
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09:24:43	<kuribas>	nope, high precendence :)
09:25:53	<cads>	dminuoso, there's still a lot of cryptic types here
09:25:59	<cads>	default conjoined__ :: Coercible (p i s t) (p j s t) => (p i a b -> p i s t) -> (p i a b -> p j s t) -> (p i a b -> p j s t)
09:26:36	<cads>	the only thing I understand about this code is the (p i s t) part, because that is the emotion I feel when I see this sort of code, lol
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09:30:58	<kuribas>	nshepperd2: higher than any operator IIRC
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09:34:24	<dminuoso>	cads: Not in optics
09:34:27	<arjun>	sm: turns out you can just name build depends without bounds and install
09:34:29	<dminuoso>	cads: There it's `conjoined :: forall (is :: IxList) i k s t a b . HasSingleIndex is i => Optic k NoIx s t a b -> Optic k is s t a b -> Optic k is s t a b`
09:34:33	<arjun>	and then run cabal gen-bounds
09:34:38	<dminuoso>	Which is fairly well readable
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09:35:36	<sm>	arjun: nice, did it work well ?
09:36:05	<arjun>	sm: it did for what i had.
09:36:16	<arjun>	i had half of them bounded and half just named
09:36:21	<arjun>	it bounded all
09:36:27	<cads>	dminuoso, that I think I can agree with. It uses a meaningful constructor Optic, rather than the anonymous p
09:36:38	<arjun>	i'll have to try with all of them unbounded and see if _that_ workds
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09:37:10	<cads>	Coercible (prof i s t) (prof j s t) => (prof i a b -> prof i s t) -> (prof i a b -> prof j s t) -> (prof i a b -> prof j s t)
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09:37:27	<dminuoso>	cads: Arguably, you can even sort of deduce its behavior from the type!
09:37:44	<cads>	^ I feel even this would be an improvement
09:37:45	<sm>	from https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cabal-package.html?highlight=gen-bounds#generating-dependency-version-bounds, it seems to expand pinned versions to full major version ranges. Does it do more than that ?
09:38:12	<cads>	though it stretches my ability to "book-keep" that index type
09:38:31	<sm>	it picks the latest major version I guess ?
09:39:26	<sm>	that sounds useful, even if you might want to expand the range later
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09:43:54	<cads>	dminuoso, I just finished the second read of the type you displayed, and I think I'm at 30% comprehension. Now I am trying to understand forall (is :: IxList) i k s t a b. I will assume that the ikstab in question is the corona vaccine, and the statement is really a statement about lens mappings between different classes of antivaxxers
09:44:17	<cads>	So that forall is just quantifying over all these variables, plus constraining the `is` variable to be an IxList
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09:48:51	<cads>	then, if the IxList has a single index x, we have a function that takes an unindexed optic and an is-indexed optic with otherwise matching type parameters, and returns an is-indexed optic with the same other type parameters
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09:50:08	<cads>	I think I'm at 50% understanding now - I have to learn about ixlists, the NoIx constant, and the Optic constructor
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09:54:13	<cads>	dminuoso, could we take `Optic k NoIx s t a b -> Optic k is s t a b -> Optic k is s t a b` and write it as `NoIndexOptic -> IndexedOptic -> IndexedOptic where NoIndexOptic = k NoIx s t a b, IndexedOptic = Optic k is s t a b` ?
09:54:49	<cads>	err
09:55:06	<cads>	that would be `NoIndexOptic = Optic k NoIx s t a b`
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09:58:22	<cads>	I think in the end it's more characters, but could make the line easier to interpret by itself. I would see `NoIndexOptic -> IndexedOptic -> IndexedOptic` and think 'oh, it's a function between these things the author is temporarily calling indexed and noindex optics
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09:59:24	<cads>	then I would look to the next lines and see the types of NoIndexOptic and IndexedOptic, which would hopefully be easier, because I've been prompted to think about indexes
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10:01:14	<jacks2>	what's the proper syntax? foo :: forall a. (T1 a, T2 m) => String -> m a?
10:01:31	<jacks2>	I am getting Not in scope: type variable �m�
10:02:17	<cads>	how are you currently quantifying over m?
10:02:57	<cads>	I see that you are constraining m to be in typeclass T2, right? But where is m being introduced as a type variable?
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10:05:57	<cads>	> type foo :: forall a. (T1 a, T2 m) => String -> m a
10:05:58	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘type’
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10:06:12	<cads>	> type foo :: forall a, m. (T1 a, T2 m) => String -> m a
10:06:14	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘type’
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10:06:40	<cads>	jacks2, help :(
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10:07:37	<cads>	I think the second line will typecheck, but I don't know how to get labmdabot to confirm this
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10:11:30	<jacks2>	I don't know how to introduce T2 with forall syntax
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10:11:50	<jacks2>	^^ cads
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10:13:34	<jacks2>	I used to have just (T1 a, T2 m) => String -> m a, but I need to use forall syntax because I am using ScopedTypeVariables
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10:18:06	<cads>	jacks2, I don't know about scoped type variables. However, the compiler is complaining about not finding m. Have you tried including m in the forall, like forall a m. (T1 a, T2 m) => String -> m a ?
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10:18:46	<jacks2>	that was it! thanks
10:19:31	<cads>	also, can you write forall (a::T1) (m::T2). String -> m a ?
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10:20:07	<cads>	I'm too lazy to install haskell or learn how to talk to lambdabot, so if you'll allow, I am using use as my interactive haskell interpreter
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10:20:46	<jacks2>	no. it asked for a bunch of extensions, and then gave a cryptic error
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10:25:40	<cads>	Oh, right, the library I am looking at is rocking extensions that let it use that a constrained forall quantifier.
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10:43:56	<kuribas>	Is there liftIO for applicatives?
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10:44:03	<kuribas>	as in Applicatives which aren't Monads?
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10:45:07	<dminuoso>	What would that mean?
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10:45:16	<kuribas>	https://stackoverflow.com/questions/26064297/is-there-an-applicativeio-class/26070251#26070251
10:45:19	<dminuoso>	kuribas: IO is inherently monadic.
10:45:32	<kuribas>	dminuoso: it's also inherently Applicative :)
10:45:57	<timCF>	Hello! Is there any way to have some extension globally in default-extensions, but disable just in one particular file?
10:46:24	<kuribas>	hmm: "So, even in a world with AMP, ApplicativeIO m and MonadIO m are really different things, even when m is a Monad"
10:47:23	<timCF>	I have a problem with StrictData in one particular file, but I still like how it works and want data be strict by default in other files https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/16141
10:47:27	<kuribas>	dminuoso: but yeah, it probably would not order the IO actions...
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10:49:38	<kuribas>	dminuoso: wait, Applicative actions can be ordered. They just cannot depend on each other.
10:50:09	<dminuoso>	kuribas: I see, so you're asking for a generalization of say `cacheResult :: Request r a => r a -> IO a -> GenHaxl u w a`?
10:52:20	<kuribas>	dminuoso: yeah, that was actually my usecase :)
10:52:38	<kuribas>	well, not using Haxl
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11:03:47	<byorgey>	timCF: you should be able to enable StrictData in default-extensions and then say {-# LANGUAGE NoStrictData #-} in the one file
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11:04:49	<timCF>	byorgey: That's what I needed, thanks a lot!
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11:27:21	<lortabac>	kuribas: you can use 'Compose IO MyType'
11:27:42	<kuribas>	lortabac: but that's a different type :)
11:27:55	<kuribas>	lortabac: MonadIO is a typeclass.
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11:32:24	<lortabac>	alternatively, you can define your own monomorphic liftIO
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11:40:27	<kuribas>	yeah
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12:52:48	<kritzefitz>	If I have a `TVar (Map k v)` and many transactions only change specific keys of the Map, is it beneficial for perfomance to make it `TVar (Map k (TVar v))` instead?
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12:54:04	<kritzefitz>	While most transactions only change the values of specific keys, some others might change the structure of the map by removing or adding keys.
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13:01:43	<kuribas>	kritzefitz: probably not. TVar's aren't free.
13:02:59	<kuribas>	kritzefitz: if you only have one TVar, you could use MVar as well.
13:03:13	<kuribas>	That will perform better.
13:03:27	<kritzefitz>	Good point.
13:04:38	<kuribas>	TVars have less chance to deadlock than MVars, but at a performance cost.
13:05:25	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	kritzefitz: have you seen https://hackage.haskell.org/package/stm-containers already?
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13:07:05	<kuribas>	that seems rather unnecessary. "but also scale well on concurrent access patterns". immutable Maps are very good for concurrency, because lazy update takes almost no time.
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13:07:31	<kritzefitz>	I had not. It looks interesting. But I noticed that each key in my map is only worked on by one thread, so I can probably omit the map entirely.
13:07:48	<kuribas>	and then lookup becomes a mutable operation.
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13:37:01	<justsomeguy>	How would you describe what a base case is? I'm struggling to come up with a good explanation of the idea.
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13:39:21	<cigsender>	justsomeguy: it's nonrecursive. so maybe just, "it's a case where the result is direct, instead of dependent on further compputation"?
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13:43:45	<shapr>	justsomeguy: when to stop? I think of washing dishes in the sink 0. If there aren't any dirty dishes, we're done 1. if there are dirty dishes, put one in the sink 2. rinse that dirty dish in clean water 3. put the rinsed dish in the rack
13:45:13	<shapr>	or also matching pairs of socks out of the dryer 0. if there are zero socks, we're done 1. pick up a sock, try to find its matche 1a. if you do not find a match, put the sock in your graveyard 1b. if you find a match, put the pair in the done pile
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13:53:31	<hippoid>	:t fmap
13:53:32	<lambdabot>	Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
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14:15:41	<hippoid>	:t (<>)
14:15:43	<lambdabot>	Semigroup a => a -> a -> a
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14:34:14	<hippoid>	I'm trying to do this first exercise on Typeclassopedia
14:34:14	<hippoid>	Implement Functor instances for Either e and ((->) e).
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14:35:34	<hippoid>	I start out wiht "instance Function (Either a) where" ...
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14:35:57	<hippoid>	but I get a duplicate instance declaration as it's defined in 'Data.Either'
14:36:09	<hippoid>	what am i doing wrong here
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14:38:21	<__monty__>	hippoid: Simplest solution is probably to not import Data.Either and just define your own Either type.
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14:39:02	<hippoid>	__monty__: that makes sense. I'm not explicitly import Data.Either. I think it's coming in through prelude
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14:39:17	<geekosaur>	yeh, was about to say that one comes fromthe Prelude
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14:39:40	<geekosaur>	so you may have to either define your own Functor-liuke typeclass, or use NoImplicitPrelude
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14:40:01	<hippoid>	geekosaur: that makes sense.
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14:41:39	<__monty__>	Maybe the wiki could be updated with some info about how to reproduce it for yourself?
14:43:47	<hippoid>	or a note that you're going to run into this problem if you do it right
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15:13:42	<gaff>	I am using GHC 8.10.4, and in GHCi, `Ratio` is defined as `data Ratio a = !a GHC.Real.:% !a`. what is `GHC.Real` in this constructor?
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15:15:27	<geekosaur>	it's an internal module
15:15:50	<geekosaur>	https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/libraries/base-4.15.0.0/GHC-Real.html
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15:16:14	<geekosaur>	basically, the :% constructor is not exported, so ghci shows its full name
15:16:16	<gaff>	yeah, i know. but i am wondering about the syntax in the constructor
15:16:24	<gaff>	ah ok
15:16:40	<gaff>	ok, got it
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15:17:05	<geekosaur>	% is not actually a constructor, it's an operator which reduces the ratio to lowest terms before feeding it to :%
15:17:05	<yahb>	geekosaur: ; <interactive>:45:30: error: parse error on input `,'
15:17:16	<geekosaur>	bah
15:17:25	<geekosaur>	shaddap stupid bit :þ
15:17:29	<geekosaur>	*bot
15:18:01	<geekosaur>	anyway we call that a "smart constructor"
15:19:04	<geekosaur>	you'll find those in a few other places, for example Data.Map.fromList sorts and uniquifies the list before constructing the Map so it obeys the internal constraints on the Map's structure
15:20:34	<geekosaur>	as for the colon, operators don't have uppercase so a constructor operator always starts with a colon
15:20:54	<geekosaur>	this basically borrows from list syntax where : is a constructor operator
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15:23:11	<gaff>	sure, thanks. also, fromRational :: Fractional a => Rational -> a, but this works: fromRational 8.987678. how come?
15:25:12	<maralorn>	Huh, yesterday. I asked about how to represent my "tree" in a config file. I decided to use json. Now my implementation is finished. I am really satisfied. But aeson throws away the order of leaves in my json. ☹️
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15:26:37	<geekosaur>	because a Fractional literal is represented as a Rational when compiled
15:27:05	<gaff>	geekosaur: ok, as a ratio of two Integers?
15:27:08	<geekosaur>	it won't work for a variable, just for a literal
15:27:09	<geekosaur>	yes
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15:27:36	<gaff>	geekosaur: but surely you would lose some precision, won't you, if you do that?
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15:27:59	<geekosaur>	nope, it can always represent exactly what you entered as a Rational
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15:28:21	<geekosaur>	because you can't enter a literal irrational number, only a rational approximation of it
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15:28:46	<gaff>	geekosaur: so that comes from math ... you can represent any fractional as a ratio of two integers?
15:29:02	<gaff>	geekosaur: oh ok
15:29:09	<geekosaur>	you could enter an expression which computes an irrational, but then fromRational would fail because it's not operating on a literal any more
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15:30:00	<geekosaur>	8.987678 is 8987678 % 10000000
15:30:17	<geekosaur>	sorry knock one of those zeroes off
15:30:28	<gaff>	geekosaur: and any rational approximation of an irrational number you can represent as a ratio of two integers, i suppose.
15:30:39	<gaff>	geekosaur: ah got it
15:30:47	<geekosaur>	that;s what "rational" means
15:30:53	<gaff>	ok
15:30:59	<gaff>	geekosaur: thanks much
15:31:05	<geekosaur>	it's alwaysy a ratio of two integers
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15:32:44	<RunRun>	Hello Helo
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15:55:34	<__monty__>	maralorn: JSON imposes no order on objects. You'd have to use lists or add identifiers that can be used to restore the order later.
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16:01:14	<maralorn>	__monty__: Yeah, I know that now.
16:01:32	<maralorn>	I actually probably already knew it. But I conveniently forgot.^^
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16:03:19	<monochrom>	> toRational pi -- >:)
16:03:21	<lambdabot>	884279719003555 % 281474976710656
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16:21:29	<dminuoso>	monochrom: Squaring the circle, finally.
16:21:59	<dminuoso>	Given that there were proofs of its impossibility, Id say you have unraveled an inconsistency in mathematics. Let's call it the trebla paradox.
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16:36:43	<tomsmeding_>	> take 5 $ fix(\s(w:a)g->let d@(e:_)=dropWhile(on(>) denominator w)g in w/e:s a d)(map(9801/2/)(scanl1(+)[fromInteger(product[1..4k](1103+26390k))/fromInteger(product[1..k]^4396^(4*k))\|k<-[0..]]))(iterate(\x->(x+2/x)/2)1)
16:36:45	<lambdabot>	[2307312216 % 734440271,5583528839414195121176657929876644864 % 177729242937...
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16:37:03	<tomsmeding_>	TIL lambdabot has a difference in truncation behaviour between personal chat and #haskell
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16:38:26	<tomsmeding_>	> map ((1.0) . realToFrac) $ fix(\s(w:a)g->let d@(e:_)=dropWhile(on(>) denominator w)g in w/e:s a d)(map(9801/2/)(scanl1(+)[fromInteger(product[1..4k](1103+26390k))/fromInteger(product[1..k]^4396^(4k))\|k<-[0..]]))(iterate(\x->(x+2/x)/2)1)
16:38:28	<lambdabot>	[3.1415927300097626,3.141592653589794,3.141592653589793,3.141592653589793,3....
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16:47:45	<geekosaur>	yep
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16:53:58	<monochrom>	dminuoso: https://xkcd.com/816/ :)
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17:34:20	<shapr>	I still wish hoogle could search for typeclass instances
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17:51:13	<cigsender>	shapr: something in particular you're looking for?
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17:56:18	<shapr>	cigsender: yeah, I followed this post https://stackoverflow.com/questions/32975116/how-to-search-for-typeclass-instances-on-hoogle
17:56:59	<shapr>	I was looking for an Arbitrary instance for ByteString, because we're converting our cryptohash code to cryptonite
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18:01:11	<cads>	kuribas, if we have a monadic instance of MonadIO / LiftIO, can't we sort of yell loudly to /forget/ that we're dealing with a monad? And doing this forgetful thing, can't we derive a "for free" applicative version?
18:01:27	<cigsender>	shapr: looks like cryptonite defines its own instance Arbitrary ByteString
18:02:19	<shapr>	oh, didn't see that
18:02:54	<cads>	kuribas, I don't know precisely why, but I feel like there is a forgetful functor from the category of monadic functors to the category of applicative functors
18:03:11	<cigsender>	shapr: it's in a test module though: https://github.com/haskell-crypto/cryptonite/blob/master/tests/Hash.hs
18:04:55	<shapr>	thanks for pointing that out, didn't know about it.
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18:07:36	<cads>	kuribas, this is in regards to your question "Is there liftIO for applicatives?"
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18:12:41	<cads>	Like, say F is the forgetful functor from from Monad to Applicative. Can F translate liftIO for applicatives that we "forget" from monads?
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18:13:10	<cads>	it seems like this approach does not help us for those applicative that are not also monads.
18:23:04	<monochrom>	https://github.com/treblacy/cabalgc \∩/
18:24:16	<[exa]>	this is some high quality material
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18:32:42	<cads>	hrm, it's not immediately obvious that I should be able to take an ordinary monad and derive from it an applicative (a lax functor and a tensorial strength). There is a slight impedance mismatch.
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18:48:07	<tomsmeding>	cads: you probably already know this, but with Haskell's concept of Applicative and Monad, you of course can: pure = return; (<*>) = ap
18:49:40	<cads>	I don't know that - I have not worked with haskell in a decade, lol
18:49:53	<tomsmeding>	@src ap
18:49:53	<lambdabot>	ap = liftM2 id
18:49:58	<tomsmeding>	lol that's not helpful
18:50:03	<cads>	I will verify what you say
18:50:29	<tomsmeding>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.15.0.0/docs/src/GHC-Base.html#ap
18:50:35	<monochrom>	It really means liftM2 ($)
18:51:03	<monochrom>	And you could use liftM2 for liftA2, too.
18:51:48	<shapr>	cads: want a job?
18:51:50	<tomsmeding>	:t (. ((. (return .)) . (>>=))) . (>>=)
18:51:52	<lambdabot>	Monad m => m (a1 -> a2) -> m a1 -> m a2
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18:52:23	<monochrom>	hahaha
18:52:27	<cigsender>	:D
18:52:35	<tomsmeding>	"pointfree!"
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18:53:44	<monochrom>	@quote monochrom 17-ary
18:53:44	<lambdabot>	monochrom says: I am 17-ary, going on 18-ary, I can take curry of you
18:54:08	<tomsmeding>	you mean I can cook for you?
18:54:33	<monochrom>	Naw, it was referring to id being 17-ary and can be 18-ary too.
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18:54:56	<monochrom>	And currying plays a role.
18:55:52	<monochrom>	And one of the songs in The Sound of Music.
18:56:10	<tomsmeding>	very important role, that one
18:56:31	<tomsmeding>	a nominal one, I think
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19:06:45	<hippoid>	How do I increase the number of tests QuickCheck runs? Google and SO is failing me.
19:07:30	<tomsmeding>	hippoid: quickCheckWith stdArgs { maxSuccess = 9999 } ?
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19:07:39	<cigsender>	hippoid: withMaxSuccess?
19:07:58	<tomsmeding>	ah
19:08:28	<hippoid>	tomsmeding: yes, thanks!
19:08:32	<tomsmeding>	(note that Tasty has a different thing for this)
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19:19:18	<hippoid>	:t ->
19:19:19	<lambdabot>	error: parse error on input ‘->’
19:19:22	<hippoid>	:t (->)
19:19:23	<lambdabot>	error: parse error on input ‘->’
19:19:30	<tomsmeding>	:k (->)
19:19:31	<lambdabot>	* -> * -> *
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19:25:26	<hippoid_>	I'm trying to understand this Functorz definition of (Either a). The 'kind' of Either is ->->*, but on line 4 I only have to provide one type variable, a. Why don't I have to provide a second type variable, like (Either a, b)? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/VGGwMBV6
19:25:49	<tomsmeding>	:k Functor
19:25:50	<monochrom>	Because a Functor instance has kind * -> *
19:25:50	<lambdabot>	(* -> *) -> Constraint
19:25:56	<tomsmeding>	:k Either a
19:25:58	<lambdabot>	error: Not in scope: type variable ‘a’
19:26:00	<tomsmeding>	:k Either Int
19:26:01	<lambdabot>	* -> *
19:26:17	<monochrom>	You don't say "instance Functor (Maybe a)", you say "instance Functor Maybe".
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19:26:35	<geekosaur>	you can think of this as meaning you have no controil nor access to the other type variable; your definition has to work for any type the user chooses for the other type variable
19:26:35	<monochrom>	For the same reason it is not going to be "instance Functor (Either x y)"
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19:27:12	<hippoid_>	I have to ponder this, I think I might get it. Also the 'a' is not used at all, so it's just there to satisfy the kind signature?
19:27:25	<tomsmeding>	you could imagine that you should be able to write something like "instance Functor (\y -> Either x y)", but you can't write type-level lambdas in Haskell
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19:27:51	<monochrom>	It is used. Write out the type of fmap for Either a.
19:27:51	<tomsmeding>	hippoid_: you're now defining a Functor instance for 'Either a' for all values of 'a'
19:28:04	<cigsender>	it means that for any type `a`, (Either a) is a Functor, i.e. you can fmap :: (x -> y) -> Either a x -> Either a y
19:28:37	<tomsmeding>	you could also have created an instance just for 'Either Int', for example
19:29:27	<monochrom>	And by the time you write "fmap f (Left x) = Left x", and ask yourself what's the type of x, the answer is a.
19:29:50	<monochrom>	All these are pointing towards more writing code and less armchair philosophizing.
19:30:26	<shapr>	yeah, I need to do that
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19:35:19	<kuribas>	:t concatMap sequence
19:35:20	<lambdabot>	(Traversable t1, Foldable t2) => t2 (t1 [a]) -> [t1 a]
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19:35:44	<hippoid_>	ok get it, at least more than I did before. Functor can vary on one type, while Either varies on two, so to match the kind of Either to Functor, one type must be held constant. Apologies for all the wrong terminology
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19:38:24	<tomsmeding>	hippoid_: that's actually not a bad way to put it I think, even if it's not the standard way of speaking
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19:38:59	<tomsmeding>	the thing that's missing in your description is that the "varying" type must be the _last_ one in the list of type variables of the type that you're implementing Functor for
19:39:15	<shapr>	speaking of which, I was trying to find a type level flip recently
19:39:25	<tomsmeding>	you can't without a newtype, right?
19:40:15	<shapr>	I found a reddit post that linked to a bifunctor ... ok, I'll go find it
19:40:27	<monochrom>	A type alias and FlexibleSomething can get you some distance but not all.
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19:41:24	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: won't you run into the fact that you can't partially apply a type synonym?
19:41:28	<geekosaur>	I thought Control.Category defined Flip
19:41:43	<monochrom>	Ah.
19:42:12	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur: this thing? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bifunctors-5.5.11/docs/Data-Bifunctor-Flip.html#t:Flip
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19:42:46	<geekosaur>	yeh, that was what I was thinking of. C.Category turns out to be very minimal, sorry
19:42:51	<shapr>	oh yeah, this was it https://www.reddit.com/r/haskellquestions/comments/pxy6tz/like_flip_but_with_types/
19:43:20	<shapr>	one of the comments mentioned Data.Bifunctor.Flip, which I haven't tried yet
19:43:43	<tomsmeding>	that looks to be literally the same type as the one in OP
19:43:49	<tomsmeding>	with a different record field name
19:43:54	<shapr>	I was trying to specify the types to cryptonite's Crypto.Hash.hash and I was using @_ and @ByteString and wondered if there was a flip
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19:44:17	<geekosaur>	probably not for that
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19:44:40	<geekosaur>	this is one of the recurring issues with TypeApplications
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19:45:03	<awpr>	that might actually be a good use for the type alias version
19:45:04	<geekosaur>	well, that and a reasonably small (and non-PVP-reflected) change can break all your type applications
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19:45:31	<awpr>	actually not so much, you'd still have to write extra _s
19:45:34	<dolio>	That's another thing that would just work if type applications were sugar for proxy arguments. :þ
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19:46:16	<awpr>	as in, value-level flip would then capture the type parameters?
19:46:24	<hippoid_>	doing this helped cement the idea... though not sure if it's a valid functor https://paste.tomsmeding.com/bbPLfG5b
19:46:24	<monochrom>	Haha nice
19:46:28	<dolio>	Yeah.
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19:46:53	<monochrom>	It is a valid functor.
19:47:11	<tomsmeding>	hippoid_: that's a great example, going to steal that
19:47:18	<hippoid_>	please do
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20:09:06	<sm>	hi glguy, Is there any complete example of reading and writing a config file with config-value ?
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20:12:09	sm	figures it out
20:15:42	<sm>	in my mind, at least. We shall see.
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20:21:48	<ghoulguy>	sm: hi
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20:23:14	<ghoulguy>	sm: the first real-world, public examples that come to mind can be found in https://github.com/glguy/irc-core/blob/v2/src/Client/Configuration/Colors.hs and other modules in this directory
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20:28:25	<shapr>	sm: I use config-value and config-schema in flm: https://github.com/shapr/fermatslastmargin/blob/master/src/Lib.hs#L412
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20:28:55	<sm>	thanks ghoulguy , shapr!
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21:18:28	<monochrom>	Ah, System.Directory.getAppUserDataDirectory is the one I should use that unifies over unix $HOME/.cabal and windows %APPDATA%\cabal
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21:19:15	<monochrom>	But maerwald is right, just use cabal-install-parsers (which calls that) and be done with it.
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21:24:16	<maerwald>	monochrom: it's even more complicated... there's also CABAL_DIR and CABAL_CONFIG and then a store-dir setting in said config
21:24:28	<monochrom>	Yeah.
21:24:35	<maerwald>	you could be setting all 3 :D
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21:25:26	<monochrom>	Next version!
21:25:52	<monochrom>	Err, I mean I procrastinate but it will be done in the next version.
21:25:54	<maerwald>	there's an issue about removing CABAL_DIR at least, but I find it's kinda convenient
21:26:07	<monochrom>	I'm just surprised that some packages don't have the "depends" field...
21:26:29	<maerwald>	monochrom: `fail`
21:26:41	<maerwald>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/fail
21:26:45	<maerwald>	it's just base, which isn't in there
21:27:05	<maerwald>	not sure why
21:27:16	<maerwald>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/fail-4.9.0.0/fail.cabal
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21:28:02	<maerwald>	right, so empty depends is indeed valid
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21:31:15	<monochrom>	Yikes, a package that builds to no code whatsoever. Not even a library-dirs field...
21:31:40	<monochrom>	Damn stupid degenerate corner cases.
21:31:54	<maerwald>	and it's a popular package
21:32:00	<maerwald>	108682 downloads
21:32:42	<hpc>	a true follower of the codeless code :D
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21:34:03	<hpc>	there's always going to be some package with empty dependencies, btw
21:34:08	<hpc>	unless we allow circular dependencies
21:34:17	<hpc>	something has to be at the root of the DAG
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21:35:55	<maerwald>	it seems people call `fail` way too often
21:36:20	<maerwald>	why can't we have something nice at the root
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22:31:11	<koz>	What is the correct wrapper for Maybe such that <> two Nothings gives a Nothing, Just beats nothing, and first Just wins?
22:31:26	<koz>	(this is for 8.10's base in case it matters)
22:33:11	<Hecate>	koz: with a rapid test in ghci, I think Alternative does what you want
22:33:21	<Hecate>	% Nothing <\|> Nothing
22:33:22	<yahb>	Hecate: Nothing
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22:33:31	<Hecate>	% Nothing <\|> Just 3
22:33:31	<yahb>	Hecate: Just 3
22:33:35	<Hecate>	% Just 1 <\|> Just 3
22:33:36	<yahb>	Hecate: Just 1
22:33:58	<koz>	So I need a wrapper which just translates 'mempty = empty' and '(<>) = (<\|>)'.
22:34:16	<koz>	Alt I think?
22:34:23	<Hecate>	koz: sounds like it yeah, if you have no choice but to use (<>)
22:34:26	<c_wraith>	You want either (Data.Monoid.First a) or Maybe (Data.Semigroup.First a)
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22:34:52	<koz>	c_wraith: I don't think First (Maybe a) does what I want here.
22:34:54	<Hecate>	koz: oh, Alt gives an interesting vibe. What do you think c_wraith ?
22:35:13	<c_wraith>	the former has been around longer, the latter is cleaner
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22:35:36	<c_wraith>	koz: Maybe (First a), not First (Maybe a)
22:35:40	<koz>	Ah.
22:35:49	<koz>	Would Alt Maybe a work?
22:35:57	<koz>	(even if it's 'too strong')
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22:36:07	<c_wraith>	yes, it's just less idiomatic
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22:39:30	<koz>	Also, is there a version of Last that wraps an 'a' (as opposed to a 'Maybe a'), but which isn't a Monoid?
22:40:01	<koz>	Ah lol, imported from wrong place.
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22:41:43	<c_wraith>	yes, those are the Data.Semigroup ones, rather than the Data.Monoid ones.
22:41:49	<c_wraith>	that name collision is a bit a problem
22:42:05	<c_wraith>	+of
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22:42:37	<koz>	Firster and Laster, lol.
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23:08:07	<jollygood2>	hi. what xml reader is usually recommended? I found several on hackage
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23:10:40	<Axma53541>	might depend what you want to do. I usually start by searching hackage and sorting by downloads to get a rough idea of at least what's being used
23:11:05	<dsal>	jollygood2: it doesn't come up much. Heh. Depends on what you're doing, though. I used xeno last time I needed to do XML
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23:13:29	<jollygood2>	I just wanted to read someone elses xml file. ist is pretty basic, and not too large, about 200 kB
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23:14:31	<jollygood2>	so I'd take simplicity and ease of use over, say, performance
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23:32:03	<Axma53541>	Those are rookie numbers, if you read that in using String, you can easilt make that 200kB 2GB+!
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23:36:02	<jollygood2>	some xml libraries use strings? I am looking at xeno, tagsoup, xml and xaml
23:36:16	<jollygood2>	s/xaml/haxml
23:37:59	<monochrom>	tagsoup and xml are pretty simple, perhaps simplistic.
23:38:09	<jollygood2>	am I misunderstanding this, or is tagsoup converting everything to String? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tagsoup-0.14.8/docs/src/Text.HTML.TagSoup.Manual.html#parseTagsOptions
23:38:31	<jollygood2>	meaning that there's no benefit in using Text?
23:39:01	<monochrom>	StringLike has ByteString and Text instances.
23:39:23	<jollygood2>	right. but they are calling toString, which converts everything to String. I see that all over the place
23:43:06	<jollygood2>	maybe I'm jumping the gun, but I experienced something similar a couple of years ago with scalpel web scraping lib. It also had similar StringLike data type, and internally worked with String everywhere. and when I converted my code to use Text over String, it made everything slightly slower
23:44:04	<monochrom>	I think your assessment is right.
23:45:01	<monochrom>	If one goes "fromString . parse . toString", the parser in the middle is usually too complicated for the compiler to say "I understand, I'll do fusion".
23:48:12	<jollygood2>	I don't actually care about speed, I'm doing it at program startup, and the file is relatively small. but high memory use could be a concern
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23:49:19	<jollygood2>	so maybe conversion is not an issue for memory use, if String in the middle is picked up by garbage collector
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23:55:57	<dsal>	If you're reading a 200 kB piece of XML once at startup, I don't know that I'd worry about performance or memory use.
23:56:55	<jollygood2>	I wasn't worrying until Axma mentioned 200kB turning into 2GB+. maybe he was sarcastic, so I'll just give tagsoup a try
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All times are in UTC on 2021-10-13.