Logs on 2021-10-16 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:01:50 | hololeap_ | is now known as hololeap |
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| 00:47:10 | <idris> | > |
| 00:47:12 | <lambdabot> | <no location info>: error: not an expression: ‘’ |
| 00:47:18 | idris | is now known as hippoid |
| 00:47:37 | <hippoid> | > newtype Pair a b = Pair {first::a, second::b } |
| 00:47:39 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘newtype’ |
| 00:47:56 | <monochrom> | You have two problems. |
| 00:48:05 | <hippoid> | I only wanted to show the one problem |
| 00:48:17 | <monochrom> | 1st problem: Use @let for declarations |
| 00:48:29 | <hippoid> | @let newtype Pair a b = Pair {first::a, second::b } |
| 00:48:29 | <lambdabot> | Parse failed: newtype declaration constructor must have exactly one parameter. |
| 00:48:35 | <monochrom> | 2nd problem: Use "data" if you want 2 or more fields. |
| 00:48:54 | <hippoid> | why is newtype limited to just 1 field? |
| 00:49:24 | <monochrom> | Because it has a semantic difference from "data". The semantics of newtype makes sense for 1 field only (and 1 ctor only). |
| 00:51:35 | <hippoid> | what is it about newtype semantics that only makes sense for it to have 1 field? |
| 00:52:05 | <hippoid> | maybe it's about avoiding it becoming a product type |
| 00:52:44 | <monochrom> | "newtype T = MkT S" means: After compiling to low level code and type erasure, I want T and S to be indistinguishable. |
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| 00:53:50 | <hippoid> | i can buy that |
| 00:55:28 | <monochrom> | Have you been following a good Haskell book? All the good ones explain this. |
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| 00:55:54 | <monochrom> | Even the poor ones have to say something along that line if they dare to bring up "newtype" at all. |
| 00:55:58 | <hippoid> | @let newtype T s = MkT s |
| 00:55:59 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 00:56:22 | <Inst> | hum, weird |
| 00:56:42 | <monochrom> | The other sane choice being never mentioning it. For example I don't use newtype in my course, I don't need it, and I don't need students to worry about one more thing. |
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| 00:57:00 | <Inst> | i'd like to ask the haskell community, I'm learning C++ right now and I'm being told by people on other channels that it's bad form |
| 00:57:13 | <Inst> | to just have int main() consist of nothing but function calls |
| 00:57:31 | <Inst> | since you guys are functional programming paradigm, is it bad form in function-land? |
| 00:57:40 | <monochrom> | No. |
| 00:57:53 | <Inst> | they had a misunderstanding |
| 00:57:54 | <monochrom> | And what more should be in main anyway? |
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| 00:58:10 | <awpr> | what else should it consist of? operators and literals? |
| 00:58:17 | <monochrom> | And why should I put extra things there for the sake of putting extra things there? |
| 00:58:19 | <awpr> | oh, that's what monochrom just said |
| 00:58:27 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 00:58:30 | <awpr> | oh I know, comments! |
| 00:58:32 | <hippoid> | monochrom: the book did mention it... but after the point I was at. |
| 00:58:38 | <hippoid> | monochrom: what's your course? |
| 00:58:53 | <monochrom> | http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~trebla/CSCC24-2021-Summer/ |
| 00:59:00 | <hippoid> | thanks |
| 01:00:17 | <monochrom> | So let me relate an earlier conversation and explain my stance and why it is the same stance about what to add to main. |
| 01:01:01 | <monochrom> | Someone on the library mailing list was suggesting to deprecate "read" because it is an oh-so-partial function. |
| 01:01:39 | <monochrom> | So someone here (different person) polled our opinion here. |
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| 01:02:32 | <monochrom> | I explained that I use it all the time, but with just cause: "x <- read <$> some digits" in parsers. |
| 01:03:17 | <monochrom> | So suppose the madman's wish came true, read were banned, and I had to write "x <- fromJust . readMaybe <$> some digits" |
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| 01:03:47 | <monochrom> | That would be what I call "using total functions for the sake of using total functions". |
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| 01:04:30 | <monochrom> | If you try to artificially add more things than function calls to main, you are adding other things to main for the sake of adding other things to main. Why. |
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| 01:05:02 | <awpr> | maybe the intended advice was "don't hoist the implementation of `main` out to a different function and then just make main do nothing but call that function"? |
| 01:05:20 | <monochrom> | Observe that in practice in most cases you will have a variety of things in main. But only because in each case you feel natural that way. Not because some religion wants it. |
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| 01:06:05 | <geekosaur> | by any chance do you have some specific code they were commenting on? |
| 01:06:18 | <monochrom> | Even that can have just cause in a minority of cases. |
| 01:06:39 | <awpr> | I could see that being a reasonable position, since you probably don't want the entire implementation of `main` to be callable as a library function, since such a function would be a pretty poor interface. |
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| 01:06:55 | <monochrom> | For example "just in this version for now for simplicity. next version will be more interesting." |
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| 01:08:55 | <geekosaur> | a game. first version main() just inbvokes the game loop. next version adds loading and saving games to main before/after the game loop. next version after that adds a menu for picking a saved game to load and/or a user to play as |
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| 01:46:15 | <unit73e> | ugh... now gitlab is trying to convince people to use 'main' instead of 'master' |
| 01:46:17 | <unit73e> | why? |
| 01:46:38 | <unit73e> | anyway here's my new set of SDL2 examples: https://gitlab.com/unit73e/sdl2-examples |
| 01:46:48 | <unit73e> | It's lazyfoo free |
| 01:47:22 | <unit73e> | it's WIP. so far shows a window and draws some primitives. |
| 01:49:12 | <unit73e> | geekosaur, I was actually thinking of doing something like that. not allowing to directly change the game loop. that's too much freedom that makes possible to have race conditions and so on |
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| 01:49:36 | <unit73e> | a game dev shouldn't have to know those details |
| 01:49:45 | <unit73e> | imo |
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| 01:51:08 | <unit73e> | all a game dev should care is game logic, now what each cycle does |
| 01:53:26 | <unit73e> | next example will be keyboard events and then proper movement, not lazyfoo choppy version |
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| 02:54:25 | <sm> | unit73e: +1 for making examples. But did you know about https://github.com/haskell-game/sdl2/tree/master/examples ? |
| 02:54:52 | <unit73e> | sm, yes I do know. in fact mine are based on those. |
| 02:55:04 | <sm> | I see, what's the difference ? |
| 02:55:57 | <sm> | better than lazyfoo in various ways ? |
| 02:56:07 | <unit73e> | those examples are incomplete in two ways. first neither uses font or audio because those are separate libraries and second is that they're based on lazyfoo and pals. |
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| 02:56:16 | <unit73e> | lazyfoo examples are good to start |
| 02:57:05 | <unit73e> | but it gets bad when you get to moving objects for example |
| 02:57:58 | <unit73e> | lazyfoo ended up using the crappiest way of moving an object... just move N pixels with you press the key, without repetition |
| 02:58:35 | <unit73e> | also apparently he rather developers not make ports or share code in any repository |
| 02:59:00 | <unit73e> | I was making a complete port of lazyfoo btw |
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| 03:00:08 | <unit73e> | so my idea is to make something similar but better suited for real life games |
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| 03:00:31 | <unit73e> | nobody uses choppy movement in games. most games have acceleration and max velocity |
| 03:01:10 | <unit73e> | also I get to do shared libraries while with lazyfoo everything was self-contained |
| 03:02:14 | <unit73e> | I don't really like the pacing and order of lazyfoo examples either. it's too slow and doesn't follow what one would naturally think to make a game. |
| 03:03:36 | <unit73e> | so yes it will be better. I just pushed documentation btw. my initial idea of self-documented code was bad after all so I'm just putting the explanation in the readme file. |
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| 03:07:15 | <monochrom> | BTW, github is also defaulting to "main". |
| 03:07:24 | <unit73e> | ugh... |
| 03:07:33 | <unit73e> | the wokes complained? |
| 03:07:44 | <monochrom> | I don't know! |
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| 03:08:21 | <unit73e> | I bet it had something to do with master/slave dilemma that nobody cares... |
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| 03:09:11 | <flu> | probably someone who doesn't know anything about computers or git saw master on somebody's computer and went on a rampage, and then it snowballed |
| 03:09:11 | <unit73e> | microsoft is a big fan of wasting time changing words |
| 03:09:38 | flu | is now known as orangeFlu |
| 03:09:42 | <unit73e> | because they're "offensive" to a loud minority, but that's just my opinion |
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| 03:10:15 | <monochrom> | I am sympathetic to changing "master/slave" to something else. But yeah I'm unsympathetic in contexts where there is just "master", no "slave", in which case there is nothing to fix. |
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| 03:10:33 | <unit73e> | I don't really care either way, I just find it annoying |
| 03:11:15 | <orangeFlu> | how is it offensive if doesn't have anything to do with that connotation. I know people of color who program and say it's just a waste of time to change it and they never thought of it that way |
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| 03:14:42 | <unit73e> | orangeFlu, nobody knows and there's no point in debating. it will be like any pointless fight were the craziest person wins with experience. it's not a topic for haskell anyway, just the latest pointless trend. |
| 03:15:23 | <unit73e> | big corpos are all in it to see who's has the biggest virtue points :\ |
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| 03:36:48 | <dsal> | awpr: re: "probably don't want the entire implementation of `main` to be callable" -- you'd be surprised. I've got review responses telling me that code in `app/` should have nothing but a call to a library function otherwise it can't be tested. OK, but like, there's already code that does that elsewhere and it's not tested anyway. This is just grabbing some args and calling library functions with those args. |
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| 04:07:26 | <dsal> | :t unless |
| 04:07:27 | <lambdabot> | Applicative f => Bool -> f () -> f () |
| 04:07:31 | <dsal> | Does anyone find this confusing? |
| 04:09:13 | <unit73e> | dsal, not really. what makes it confusing? |
| 04:09:39 | <dsal> | No idea. Just reading some hlint rules someone wrote up. Apparently `unless` is really confusing and you should use `when` instead. |
| 04:11:21 | <dsal> | Also `either`. One function for when left and one for when right. No way to know which is which. mnemonic: The one on the left is for lefts and the one on the right is for rights. |
| 04:12:54 | <unit73e> | for `either` I kind of get it |
| 04:13:22 | <unit73e> | because the opposite of `right` should be `wrong` lol |
| 04:13:37 | <unit73e> | but that would look stupid |
| 04:13:58 | <unit73e> | so left/right it is |
| 04:14:39 | <dsal> | Sometimes `either` is the perfect tool. |
| 04:14:43 | <dsal> | :t either fail pure |
| 04:14:44 | <lambdabot> | MonadFail m => Either String a -> m a |
| 04:15:09 | <unit73e> | yes but the confusion is what to put on `left` and on `right` |
| 04:15:18 | <unit73e> | we know `right` is for the correct path |
| 04:15:22 | <unit73e> | but that's just a convention |
| 04:15:36 | <unit73e> | it could be reversed |
| 04:16:17 | <sm> | dsal, working with some new haskellers ? |
| 04:16:26 | <unit73e> | for `unless`, I don't get it. It's just flipped `when`, so `do ... unless ...`. |
| 04:16:31 | <dsal> | The argument isn't to avoid Either, but to avoid `either` and use a case statement instead. That doesn't change the Left/Right confusion. It just means instead of `either fail pure` you write `case e of Left x -> fail x; Right x -> pure x` |
| 04:17:02 | × | azimut quits (~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 04:17:09 | <dsal> | sm: Worse, I'm working with someone who is allegedly a master of haskell but wants to write code that any beginner will easily understand. |
| 04:17:19 | <unit73e> | lmao |
| 04:17:22 | <unit73e> | good luck with that |
| 04:17:27 | <sm> | ah, that is more complicated :) |
| 04:17:41 | <sm> | I sympathise with both of you |
| 04:18:05 | <dsal> | And someone who's at least a newbie strawman. Occasionally looks and code and says it wasn't immediately obvious so it should be changed. |
| 04:18:08 | <unit73e> | how about just learn the language? |
| 04:18:22 | <sm> | maybe one of the style guides out there can be used, to avoid arguments ? |
| 04:18:24 | <dsal> | I mean, there *is* excessively confusing. |
| 04:18:49 | <dsal> | I'm not sure anybody else's style guide would suffice. |
| 04:18:54 | <unit73e> | I have a better idea. instead of just blindly using `either` and `unless`, read what it does first. |
| 04:18:59 | <sm> | it's a place to start |
| 04:19:01 | <unit73e> | just saying lol |
| 04:19:16 | <dsal> | One of the things is "just pick a formatter and use it and don't have any arguments about it just apply it" with some justification as to how aesthetics don't help the user. |
| 04:19:26 | <dsal> | But, TBH, ormolu slows me down a few times a day. |
| 04:19:45 | <dsal> | unit73e: hlint prevents commits. |
| 04:19:51 | <unit73e> | oof |
| 04:20:28 | <unit73e> | you're getting yourself into a can of worms about to be openned |
| 04:21:14 | <unit73e> | but if it's not your call I wouldn't bother much |
| 04:21:48 | <dsal> | Yeah. I'll see where it goes. I took a job so I could help out some and learn a bit. But if we want to pull down towards the LCD programmer instead of pull people up a bit, I might just do something else. |
| 04:22:18 | <unit73e> | I'm stilll trying to figure how `do ... unless ...` is confusing. reads like normal english. |
| 04:23:10 | <unit73e> | I guess because it's a negative? not a positive? |
| 04:24:20 | <dsal> | Yeah, I guess I'll ask. I have the same issue. `when (not . isGood) $ x` seems more confusing to me. |
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| 04:25:04 | <tapas> | `let bad = not . isGood` |
| 04:25:08 | <tapas> | `when bad x` |
| 04:25:19 | <unit73e> | lol unless is just more readable |
| 04:25:43 | <tapas> | `unless (not . bad) x` |
| 04:25:49 | <awpr> | how to abide by that rule: `when't = when . not` and then just use that |
| 04:26:17 | <tapas> | `unlessn't f = unless (not . f)` |
| 04:27:38 | <dsal> | Yeah, the strawman newbie guy wrote a style guide that included always using `let` and ~never using `where` because it's really confusing for him to see things that are used before they're defined and I'm just like... no. |
| 04:27:48 | <dsal> | Use a non-declarative language if that confuses you. |
| 04:28:03 | <dsal> | I tend to write the thing I want and then fill in the details later, leaving the high level thing first. |
| 04:29:14 | <unit73e> | that's just bad advice |
| 04:29:31 | <unit73e> | not using `where` |
| 04:29:41 | <unit73e> | I favor where to let tbh |
| 04:30:07 | <unit73e> | I don't really care about particularities of the main code, so where hides htat |
| 04:30:19 | <unit73e> | let doesn't. it's noise. |
| 04:30:57 | <unit73e> | that newbie is probably used to imperative languages |
| 04:30:58 | <dsal> | Yeah, that's kind of how I see it. People have weird views of readability. |
| 04:31:57 | <unit73e> | in C it was (maybe still is) good pratice to declare everything first |
| 04:32:05 | <unit73e> | I always found it silly |
| 04:32:45 | <dsal> | The document also suggested using longer variable names for readability and gave a "bad" example and a "good" example where the "bad" example was clearly better. It had stuff like "serverEnvironment = getServerEnvironment" and then just uses it once on the next line. Like, dude, call it "env" and if I forget what it is, I'll look at the line above again. |
| 04:33:37 | <unit73e> | yup that's Java style |
| 04:33:41 | <dsal> | Some of these files have lots of symbol names with five or six words and minimal hamming distance between them. Almost can't read it without a code that will highlight symbols when you click on them. |
| 04:33:57 | <unit73e> | even Scala got rid of that verbose nonsense |
| 04:34:22 | <unit73e> | and Scala is just Java 2.0 |
| 04:34:40 | <unit73e> | well Java is already 2.X but you get the point |
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| 04:35:06 | <dsal> | I did go readability reviews for a bunch of years trying to convince people that they don't need really long names for really short scopes. |
| 04:35:34 | <unit73e> | that's useful in Java because there's not much composition going on |
| 04:35:58 | <unit73e> | but in haskell you're always using generic functions |
| 04:36:06 | <dsal> | Only once had someone tell me he had a neurological problem that made it impossible for him to understand variable names that were not ~7 words long even used one time immediately after declaration and was super angry. |
| 04:36:31 | <unit73e> | I only do that for examples |
| 04:36:40 | <unit73e> | like my SDL examples project lol |
| 04:36:55 | <unit73e> | call it "renderer" instead of "r" |
| 04:37:08 | <unit73e> | it doesn't really make much of a difference for simple examples |
| 04:37:17 | <dsal> | Yeah, there are times where it's illustrative. |
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| 04:39:03 | <dsal> | This thing also has the "don't use `sum`" thing. I have to wonder where that's a problem in practice. AIUI, they fixed it in newer GHCs. Seems easier to just fix the compiler than to train everyone that something incredibly basic is a bad idea. |
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| 04:42:36 | <monochrom> | Performance advices rarely stand the test of time. The 3-party dynamic dance of programmers, compiler writers, and hardware designers perpetually 2nd-guessing each others and lagging behind. |
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| 04:45:39 | <clever> | monochrom: ive also heard that a number of haskell performance benchmarks, that kept an eye on the rts, where dependant on the total size of the env vars when the test got ran |
| 04:45:52 | <clever> | because the env vars go on the stack before main(), and change the alignment of the stack |
| 04:46:06 | <monochrom> | haha yikes |
| 04:46:48 | <dsal> | This specifically calls out Data.Foldable.sum which is `getSum #. foldMap Sum` But this still feels a bit like voodoo to try to avoid. |
| 04:47:46 | <awpr> | `base` picked up the coercion-composition stuff from lens? presumably a version specialized to (->)? |
| 04:47:50 | <dsal> | > foldMap (\x -> (Sum x, Sum 1)) [13..185] -- I do stuff like this which technically isn't `sum` but does the same thing. |
| 04:47:52 | <lambdabot> | (Sum {getSum = 17127},Sum {getSum = 173}) |
| 04:48:22 | <monochrom> | A general form of Wadler's law applies. Most people pay most attention to the most superficial, simplistic things. |
| 04:49:18 | <monochrom> | "Don't use short names." "Don't use a language that doesn't use {}". Simple enough for bird brains. |
| 04:49:43 | <monochrom> | "Do what's right for the particular situation." Too hard. |
| 04:49:50 | <dsal> | Part of the problem is that a coalition decided to declare "Simple Haskell" as a good way forward, but I can't figure out wtf it is. https://www.simplehaskell.org |
| 04:50:14 | <awpr> | it's Go with layout |
| 04:50:52 | <awpr> | (sensationalized for entertainment purposes) |
| 04:51:11 | <dsal> | I get stuff like "don't use monad constraints, just run everything in IO" which is pretty cool except like, now there's a logging API and it only works in a specific reader monad and I have a different reader monad, so I don't get to do logging. |
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| 04:52:06 | <monochrom> | That may be solvable by monad morphisms. Learned it last night. :) |
| 04:52:08 | <dsal> | The problem I'm running into with "Simple Haskell" is that, like go, Simple often means "just copy that code a lot." Don't use classes, run everything in IO, etc... |
| 04:52:31 | <monochrom> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mmorph-1.2.0/docs/Control-Monad-Morph.html |
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| 04:53:51 | <dsal> | I doubt it. That sounds "fancy." All I really needed was `HasLogger` for all the logging methods, but a `HasLogger` class might not work because someone might implement it incorrectly and break something or whatever. |
| 04:56:32 | <monochrom> | Hey maybe next April 1 I should post my idea of simple haskell and get them to link to my post. |
| 04:56:50 | <monochrom> | It's simply going to be "I don't teach newtype or do-notation to my students". >:) |
| 04:56:51 | <dolio> | Why do you care about "simple haskell"? |
| 04:57:36 | <monochrom> | But it's written in Snoyman style >:) |
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| 04:58:16 | <dsal> | dolio: I care about making supportable code. To a degree, that's simple. But simple is so vague everyone argues about what it means. |
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| 04:58:44 | <dolio> | Yeah, but the thing you're talking about is some branded thing. Why do you care about that specifically? |
| 04:59:00 | <dsal> | monochrom: I thought about you when asked to convert something simple to `do` syntax because it's "easier" for newbies. Well you and all the times I've seen people here (and myself) confused by what is happening in a `do` block before writing it out. |
| 04:59:03 | <monochrom> | I think more like annoyed that it exists? :) |
| 04:59:17 | <dsal> | dolio: Oh, I don't care about that specifically. But people talk about the name, so I go trying to find a definition and I find that. |
| 05:00:12 | <monochrom> | The first time I taught this course I used do-notation. I got reliable feedback that skipping do-notation is better. |
| 05:00:42 | <dolio> | Like, I agree that people waste a lot of time on things that don't contribute to getting the job done. The problem is that there isn't a specific feature list that rules out people doing that. |
| 05:00:57 | <monochrom> | do-notation is easier for newbies who expect to cargo-cult, no doubt. |
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| 05:02:08 | <dsal> | do notation is *really* confusing when trying to understand list or maybe monads. It's easy to understand those without it. |
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| 05:02:20 | <monochrom> | But my students did not expect to cargo-cult. They expect me to make sense. |
| 05:02:48 | <dolio> | Most GHC features can be used in small amounts to make specific things nicer by people that know how, even if they can also be used to do complicated, unhelpful stuff. |
| 05:04:25 | <dsal> | For me, fitting more things into existing categories is easier. e.g., I understand what a semigroup is, so telling me something is a semigroup is easier trying to keep up with several different concepts that are all semigroups but with different names, possibly different rules, and no ability to reuse existing parts. |
| 05:04:33 | <dsal> | ("code being too generic is bad") |
| 05:06:57 | <monochrom> | Oh yeah I don't teach type aliases either haha. |
| 05:07:29 | <dsal> | type aliases seem kind of harmful. |
| 05:07:58 | <ski> | monochrom : "ReadS is a type alias, so, not mandatory :)" -- but helpful, in this kind of situation, to avoid extra clutter. the main use of it, for me |
| 05:08:25 | <dsal> | NamedFieldPuns is banned according to this list, but RecordWildCards is used in places where it's far easier, safer, and clearer not to. |
| 05:09:40 | <dsal> | And TupleSections. This dude *hates* TupleSections for reasons I don't understand. When I was learning sections, I ran into TupleSections because it seemed like a super obvious way to write things and I didn't understand why I had to add a language extension use it. |
| 05:09:41 | <monochrom> | Is that the same list that says "use longer names"? |
| 05:09:53 | <dsal> | I don't think hlint itself allows that. |
| 05:10:11 | <dsal> | hlint feature request: All symbol names must be complete sentences. |
| 05:10:24 | <monochrom> | Because oddly enough "use more names" is a logical prerequisite for "use longer names", no? |
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| 05:10:48 | <dsal> | Function names must all be valid German words. |
| 05:12:33 | <monochrom> | Oh yeah I don't teach ($) either. When explaining the equivalence between <*> and liftA2, I write liftA2 (\f x -> f x). |
| 05:13:54 | <monochrom> | And I am still looking for a nice way to write Applicative laws with liftA2 rather than <*>. So that I can omit <*> too. |
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| 05:16:24 | <ski> | yea, imho, `RecordWildCards' is more confusing than `NamedFieldPuns'. and the main problem with `NamedFieldPuns' is the clashing with reuse of field names as field name extraction functions .. without that, i wouldn't have a problem with `NamedFieldPuns' |
| 05:16:29 | <monochrom> | Actually not just a nice way. A practical way, too. |
| 05:17:16 | <monochrom> | Because at some point I explain that we care about identity laws and associative laws because they justify a lot of refactorings. |
| 05:17:54 | <monochrom> | And if I dare say that, I ought to demo it a bit with an actual short proof of an actual short example, no? |
| 05:18:18 | <monochrom> | Well, currently, both versions of Applicative laws make the proof very long and also very artificial. |
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| 05:18:48 | <monochrom> | Unlike monad laws. The monad laws are actually way better in this case. |
| 05:18:49 | <dsal> | This code does a lot of `let thingKey = x; thingVal = y; thingStuff = z in Thing{..}` type of code. I changed a field name and suddenly fields just weren't set. Seems like a weird convention. |
| 05:19:12 | <monochrom> | (Proofs that are both short and obvious.) |
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| 05:20:33 | <ski> | dsal : ugh, yea .. not a fan of bringing names into scope implicitly (or the reverse, implicitly using names in scope) |
| 05:21:12 | <dolio> | The unit laws don't seem bad. |
| 05:21:56 | <dolio> | And associative laws seem like they're going to be messy anyway. |
| 05:22:19 | <dsal> | ski++ |
| 05:22:26 | ski | twitches |
| 05:23:32 | <dsal> | succ ski |
| 05:23:53 | <ski> | preferable, i guess |
| 05:24:14 | <dsal> | I like that `undefined` is in the banned function list, but the author is a proponent for writing `let Thing _ _ _ _ = undefined` in various code as a change detector. |
| 05:25:53 | ski | . o O ( `forall f ia ib ic. liftA2 (\(a,b) c -> f a b c) (liftA2 (,) ia ib) ic = liftA2 (\a (b,c) -> f a b c) ia (liftA2 (,) ib ic)' ) |
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| 05:26:07 | <ski> | change detector ? |
| 05:26:21 | <dsal> | Yeah, so like, if you add a new field to Thing, this code should break. |
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| 05:26:39 | <ski> | oh |
| 05:27:04 | <dsal> | That's marginally preferable to "this code should work correctly" but not enough that I lost all those arguments yet. |
| 05:28:12 | <dsal> | This lists `fromEnum` as "# Does not do what you think it does." -- this one is kind of weird. I think it does do what I think it does. I found a couple pages of code where people had Enum instances for a simple sum type and then manually wrote out the exact same Enum instance under a different name. |
| 05:31:19 | <monochrom> | This is why my simple (pun intended) model of the human brain is: memoizing random generator. |
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| 05:31:44 | <monochrom> | First randomly generate an opinion. Then remember to stick to it. |
| 05:32:06 | <dsal> | It also spreads. |
| 05:32:21 | <monochrom> | So suppose you want to opine on 100 functions in the standard library. |
| 05:32:35 | ski | . o O ( oracles & forcing ) |
| 05:33:08 | <monochrom> | Easy! For each function, randomly generate an opinion. Done! Now you also prove yourself to have no consistency. |
| 05:33:12 | <ski> | you flip a coin to determine whether to keep or to drop, and then invent reasons why ? |
| 05:33:21 | <monochrom> | Yeah! |
| 05:35:03 | <monochrom> | There is no simpler way to explain why a person can believe both "names should be more explicit" ("longer names") and "names should be more implicit" ("don't use NamedFieldPuns"). |
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| 05:37:12 | ski | . o O ( "Continuity of Gödel's system T definable functionals via effectful forcing" by Martín Hötzel Escardó in 2013 at <https://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/dialogue/dialogue.pdf> ) |
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| 05:38:08 | <ski> | monochrom : hm .. perhaps one of those is as a reaction to the other |
| 05:38:21 | <monochrom> | I once wrote a memoizing random generator using unsafeInterleaveIO and posted on lpaste :) :( |
| 05:39:42 | <dolio> | That's how some of Bouwer's counterexamples work. |
| 05:39:44 | <ski> | istr hearing QuickCheck for Erlang used memoizing random generator, to generate a random function |
| 05:40:14 | <monochrom> | A lazy binary tree. At each node there is data, but the data is randomly generated when the user first visits the node. Interactive. |
| 05:41:32 | ski | . o O ( Fudget oracles tell the user the outcome of a concurrency scheduling decision ) |
| 05:41:47 | <ski> | dolio : elaborate ? |
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| 05:43:21 | <dolio> | Like, the counterexample to Markov's principle. You say, "there is an infinite bit sequence that satisfies the premise." I think it's supposed to be that not all are 0. |
| 05:43:48 | <dolio> | Then when people ask you about individual bits, you always tell them 0, and remember the indexes they asked about. |
| 05:44:31 | <dolio> | But, if they try to claim all bits are 0, you decide that an index they haven't asked about yet is 1. |
| 05:44:38 | <ski> | hm, is that related to Kreisel's no-counterexample-interpretation ? |
| 05:44:44 | <monochrom> | Adversary arguments :) |
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| 05:46:53 | <dolio> | Maybe. I'm not familiar with that. |
| 05:48:20 | <monochrom> | For example why elem :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> Bool must examine more than n-1 elements (if n is the length of the list). |
| 05:48:28 | <ski> | instead of `exists x. forall y. R (x,y)', you claim `forall f. exists x. R (x,f x)' (dual of AoC). so instead of constructing `x' immediately, you want for your opponent to tell how they intend to choose `y', given `x'. then you use that to construct your `x' |
| 05:49:03 | <ski> | s/want/wait/ |
| 05:49:39 | <monochrom> | The adversary thinks up non-matching elements for your n-1 queries. |
| 05:50:34 | <monochrom> | Then, if your algorithm returns True, the adversary thinks up one more non-matching element for the one spot you didn't ask about. |
| 05:51:02 | <monochrom> | If your algorithm returns False, the adversary claims that the spot you didn't ask about has the element. |
| 05:52:31 | <monochrom> | One more use case for unsafeInterleaveIO! :) |
| 05:54:04 | <dolio> | Yeah. I think basically Brouwer doesn't think that infinite sequences need to be limited to some pre-defined describable procedure. |
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| 05:55:07 | <dolio> | That's obviously a pathological example concocted for that particular principle. |
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| 05:57:25 | <dolio> | The broader point is, an infinite sequence generted by a mathematician who wants to invalidate Markov's principle is a valid sequence. Or if the sequence depends on their mood when you inquire about a particular bit (as long as they don't contradict themselves if you ask twice), or ... |
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| 06:01:32 | <dolio> | Which is a useful notion, since it means you can accomodate sequences that can't feasibly be feasibly associated to, like, a Turing machine. Like, measuring a physical instrument, even if you for some reason believe that 'in principle' you could give a Turing machine that will reproduce those results. |
| 06:01:52 | <dolio> | Oops, I duplicated a word. |
| 06:02:07 | <ski> | "computable" vs. "algorithmic" |
| 06:02:58 | <ski> | no need to assume a Cauchy sequence is algorithmic, to be able to compute with it, it's a superfluous assumption |
| 06:03:26 | <dolio> | Right. You can run algorithms on data that is not generated by an algorithm. |
| 06:03:57 | <dolio> | Even if it's merely because you don't know the algorithm. |
| 06:04:07 | <ski> | iirc Escardó talks a little bit about that, in his thesis |
| 06:04:39 | <ski> | (and the difference it makes for the topology, depending on whether you assume external data is algorithmic, or not) |
| 06:07:12 | <ski> | i suppose induction vs. coinduction, introduction vs. elimination, finitary vs. infinitary, is related |
| 06:07:50 | <dolio> | Yeah, this comes up with modest sets and realizability toposes, too. You can have things realized in a way where only some of the realizers are computable. The arrows are always realized by computable realizers, but the objects aren't necessarily. |
| 06:08:20 | <dolio> | In that context "computable" means by an algorithm. |
| 06:09:52 | <ski> | mm |
| 06:09:56 | <dolio> | And there's a modality #A that picks out just the computable stuff. |
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| 06:10:03 | <ski> | the objects involve some function or relation ? |
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| 06:16:47 | <dolio> | I'm not sure what the question is. One view is that your realizers form a partial combinatory algebra, which is like a model of SK calculus. So ℕ^ℕ is one that contains non-computable stuff. A map `f : A → B` is always given by a computable realizer, but the exponential `B^A` 'has' non-computable realizers. |
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| 06:18:24 | <dolio> | I'm not sure how that shows up exactly, but probably there's some sense in which there are things that don't factor through 1 or something. |
| 06:18:55 | <ski> | yea, i was wondering what it meant that objects aren't necessarily "computable", whether it e.g. meant that some function or relation that goes into the make-up of objects in this category wasn't necessarily that |
| 06:18:58 | <dolio> | Because the points `f : 1 → B^A` are computable. |
| 06:19:14 | ski | nods |
| 06:21:36 | <dolio> | I guess 1 is probably not a "separator". |
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| 06:30:22 | <ski> | hm, inapropos, was it you who once mentioned some YouTube link of a mathematician (on a Zoom call or something), talking about coinduction and dynamical systems, or somesuch ? |
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| 06:31:18 | <dolio> | Hmm. Maybe. |
| 06:32:42 | <ski> | (looking for it, i found "Monad-comonad interaction laws, monad algebras, comonad coalgebras" by Tarmo Uustalu in 2020-10-22 at <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHIKGC_oxFA>, but i don't think that's the one i had in mind) |
| 06:33:31 | <dolio> | Are you talking about this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqywV-wkKSE |
| 06:34:02 | <ski> | hm, that might've been it ! |
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| 06:57:29 | <hololeap> | @hoogle (e -> m a) -> ExceptT e m a -> m a |
| 06:57:30 | <lambdabot> | No results found |
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| 07:01:13 | <ski> | @type \h e -> either h return =<< runExceptT e |
| 07:01:14 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => (a -> m b) -> ExceptT a m b -> m b |
| 07:04:48 | <hololeap> | % :t \f -> either f pure <=< runExceptT |
| 07:04:49 | <yahb> | hololeap: Monad m => (a -> m c) -> ExceptT a m c -> m c |
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| 07:05:19 | <hololeap> | yeah, i'm a little surprised this isn't in the ExceptT module |
| 07:07:42 | <ski> | @hoogle (e -> m b) -> (a -> m b) -> (ExceptT e m a -> m b) |
| 07:07:43 | <lambdabot> | Control.Error.Util exceptT :: Monad m => (a -> m c) -> (b -> m c) -> ExceptT a m b -> m c |
| 07:08:04 | <ski> | @hoogle Exception e => (e -> IO b) -> (a -> IO b) -> (IO a -> IO b) |
| 07:08:05 | <lambdabot> | No results found |
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| 07:49:52 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: I made some bad drawings https://tomsmeding.com/f/ghcup-logo/index.html |
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| 07:53:55 | <kuribas> | Do you think data-oriented programming in haskell is feasible or desirable? It means describing your business logic as data, and then having an interpreter to implement that logic. |
| 07:54:06 | <kuribas> | It also looks hard to make robust and type safe. |
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| 07:54:59 | <kuribas> | Because if you want to be type-safe, those datastructures need to describe the types as well as the logic. |
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| 07:58:39 | <kuribas> | I suppose you need GADTs then. |
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| 08:04:04 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: the predicate "can model this real-world concept in the Haskell type system" has some very non-intuitive structure |
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| 08:04:34 | <tomsmeding> | that is: innocuous changes in the requirements have a tendency to have a profound effect on how easily you can model your problem using haskell types |
| 08:04:59 | <kuribas> | But what if you try to push as much as possible in value level? |
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| 08:05:24 | <tomsmeding> | if you're staying restrained in terms of how much you use from GADTs, GHC haskell has quite powerful tools for working with them |
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| 08:06:03 | <tomsmeding> | like, only simple type tags, preferably no type variables of kind other than Type |
| 08:06:27 | <kuribas> | For example, using higher kinded types to map the meta information to actual runtime information. |
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| 08:06:50 | <tomsmeding> | not that you cannot have those more fancy type variables; it works very well, but I think the correlation between "I need type variables of non-Type kind" and "my problem requires extensions/techniques that are not for the faint of heart" is quite high |
| 08:07:26 | <tomsmeding> | but this is philosophising, I think you can't say anything much more concrete without having a case in front of you |
| 08:07:55 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: that sounds cool but I frankly have no idea what you mean with that, concretely :p |
| 08:07:56 | <kuribas> | for example: describing a data model declaratively, then generating queries to fetch the model from the database. |
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| 08:08:05 | <tomsmeding> | hm |
| 08:08:18 | <kuribas> | Assuming the data model has pointers to which tables are relevant etc... |
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| 08:08:27 | <tomsmeding> | that sounds quite possible |
| 08:08:39 | <kuribas> | But the question is of course, does this have an advantage over simply making a separate module with curstom queries. |
| 08:08:56 | <tomsmeding> | also sounds like the type-indexedness of GADTs only helps for correctness here; plain ADTs would work fine if all programmers are diligent |
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| 08:09:14 | <tomsmeding> | (which is a precarious assumption :p ) |
| 08:10:09 | <tomsmeding> | module with custom queries is less cool and less flexible in some ways, but more flexible in other ways (easier to encode exceptions to the general patterns) and also easier for beginning haskellers to understand |
| 08:10:26 | <kuribas> | indeed |
| 08:11:04 | <kuribas> | And I find the ability to compose queries makes this not that painful. |
| 08:11:41 | <kuribas> | As you can extract common patterns, and make flexible queries corresponding to the requirements. |
| 08:12:24 | <tomsmeding> | I mean, don't get me wrong, not too long ago I willingly wrote and used a data type with 8 type parameters |
| 08:12:45 | <kuribas> | hehe |
| 08:13:22 | <tomsmeding> | it even made me write a tool to refactor my code to add a type parameter to that type while parsing existing occurrences of the type better than regexen can https://git.tomsmeding.com/refactor-type-parameters/tree/ |
| 08:13:41 | <tomsmeding> | may or may not have been a bad use of my time |
| 08:13:54 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: yes indeed |
| 08:14:17 | <tomsmeding> | for a business application I would naively expect that the kind of flexibility that the "module with custom queries" approach gives you is precisely the flexibility that you need |
| 08:14:50 | <tomsmeding> | the composability of the data-driven version is cool but ultimately more suited to more PL-theoretic environments like compilers, I think |
| 08:14:57 | <tomsmeding> | (which is :( ) |
| 08:16:00 | <kuribas> | yeah, and I find in real business applications you often get edge cases etc which have to be encoded in the data model, so it becomes less and less clean over time. |
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| 09:38:49 | <sm> | what could explain this: an error call in my program can be caught, an error call in a lib can not be ? |
| 09:38:53 | sm | sent a haskell code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/ce943f8bb2ade3235929801a0bf419b437d75e7e |
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| 09:40:17 | <sm> | displaySize code: https://hub.darcs.net/ffaf/ansi-terminal-game/browse/src/Terminal/Game/Layer/Object/IO.hs#120 |
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| 09:42:29 | <tomsmeding> | sm: laziness |
| 09:42:41 | <tomsmeding> | displaySize returns a pair of thunks, one of which contains the error call |
| 09:42:52 | <tomsmeding> | evaluating the tuple is fine, and 'catch' only does WHNF |
| 09:43:06 | <tomsmeding> | 'print' then forces the error |
| 09:43:13 | <tomsmeding> | (or at least that's what I think is happening) |
| 09:43:39 | <sm> | urgh.. that makes sense, thank you |
| 09:44:00 | <sm> | stupid tuples.. |
| 09:44:14 | <tomsmeding> | throwing an asynchronous exception when getting TERM fails is bad though IMO |
| 09:44:24 | <tomsmeding> | were it an IO exception, it would've been fine :p |
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| 09:45:19 | <stengah> | hey guys new here |
| 09:45:30 | <sm> | agreed. An ErrorCall is not an IOException I guess. |
| 09:45:30 | <stengah> | I learned basics |
| 09:45:39 | <stengah> | how learn more? |
| 09:45:45 | <stengah> | how to learn more? |
| 09:46:00 | <stengah> | how to become pro like you guys? |
| 09:47:00 | sm | wonders how to force it to fully evaluate |
| 09:47:10 | <tomsmeding> | sm: the point with throwIO is that it's sequenced in the IO monad, so you're guaranteed to get the exception |
| 09:47:16 | <oak-> | Write some more code and solve practical real world problems :) |
| 09:47:24 | <tomsmeding> | sm: length (show result) `seq` restofyourcode |
| 09:48:41 | <stengah> | Also I don't need I understand monad |
| 09:49:00 | <stengah> | oak- : what practical real world problems you solved? |
| 09:49:10 | <stengah> | do you also know PL theory? |
| 09:50:05 | <sm> | tomsmeding: that's not quite it, but I'll get there |
| 09:50:41 | <kuribas> | stengah: how much do you know now? What is your goal? |
| 09:51:29 | <stengah> | My goal for now is to learn enough to write compilers |
| 09:51:35 | <stengah> | getting into PL theory |
| 09:51:50 | <tomsmeding> | sm: okay better guess: print =<< (displaySize >>= \sz -> length (show sz) `seq` return sz) `catch` \(_::SomeException) -> return (0,0) |
| 09:52:07 | <tomsmeding> | (clearly that length . show thing should be deepseq but less deps and stuff) |
| 09:52:25 | <stengah> | I've read the book by hutton |
| 09:52:31 | <stengah> | and gentle introduction to haskell |
| 09:52:48 | <stengah> | also wrote some small programs |
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| 09:53:33 | <sm> | tomsmeding: nice! thanks for the example |
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| 10:00:31 | <tomsmeding> | stengah: what's "small programs"? |
| 10:03:23 | <stengah> | let's say code with less than 200 lines |
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| 10:04:03 | <stengah> | programs that does nothing significant |
| 10:06:10 | <stengah> | or worthy |
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| 10:06:37 | <bluenode> | hello folks |
| 10:06:52 | <bluenode> | simple question; why won't this compile? |
| 10:06:53 | <bluenode> | fullString = concat (intersperse " " ["hello","there","folks"]) |
| 10:06:53 | <bluenode> | let toPrint = ["a", "da"] |
| 10:06:54 | <bluenode> | main = print toPrint |
| 10:07:25 | <tomsmeding> | stengah: written a mandelbrot renderer yet? |
| 10:07:36 | <stengah> | nope |
| 10:07:40 | <tomsmeding> | just writing ascii art to output is fine :p |
| 10:07:42 | <tomsmeding> | do that |
| 10:07:53 | <tomsmeding> | far less than 200 lines but always nice |
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| 10:08:18 | <stengah> | Okay |
| 10:08:38 | <stengah> | starting right now |
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| 10:09:50 | <tomsmeding> | stengah: then write a calculator that takes input in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_Polish_notation |
| 10:10:13 | <tomsmeding> | slightly more advanced is making that accept normal infix notation |
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| 10:11:56 | <stengah> | ok |
| 10:12:04 | <stengah> | will do both |
| 10:12:27 | <stengah> | bluenode: try each line in ghci |
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| 10:13:24 | <sm> | bluenode: if only we had some kind of automatic analysis tool.. :) |
| 10:13:30 | <tomsmeding> | stengah: also write interpreters for whatever language you like |
| 10:13:36 | <tomsmeding> | start with brainfuck perhaps |
| 10:14:09 | <tomsmeding> | then try to optimise the brainfuck before you execute it :p |
| 10:14:29 | <stengah> | and how do you understand monad? |
| 10:14:38 | <bluenode> | sm: if the compiler's error message was helpful then i wouldnt be asking here ;) |
| 10:14:41 | <stengah> | is there a particular way to look into it? |
| 10:14:43 | <bluenode> | stengah: yes that works in ghci but not in a script. i realise i need to get rid of the let if i want it to compile in a script, but why is that? |
| 10:15:17 | <tomsmeding> | stengah: Monad is an abstraction that generalises _many_ different things. Most monad tutorials or descriptions give intuition for just one kind of monad. |
| 10:15:17 | <stengah> | main = do print toPrint |
| 10:15:20 | <stengah> | try this |
| 10:15:20 | <xsperry> | bluenode ghci (roughly) pretends to be in IO block, where let works |
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| 10:15:45 | <tomsmeding> | stengah: I understood it by not understanding it and then working with them too often |
| 10:15:54 | <tomsmeding> | also implement Monad instances for lots of types |
| 10:16:37 | <stengah> | tomsmeding: so you just get familiar with the laws |
| 10:16:53 | <tomsmeding> | yes, by playing with monads |
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| 10:17:09 | <sm> | bluenode: I hear you. We can take a look. |
| 10:17:09 | <sm> | @where paste |
| 10:17:10 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 10:17:10 | <tomsmeding> | not by reading a book (I never learned programming by reading from a book, but I know other people like to work differently) |
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| 10:17:30 | <stengah> | I've read lots of books |
| 10:17:48 | <sm> | (but I guess you figured it out) |
| 10:17:51 | <tomsmeding> | stengah: which means you need to get writing instead of reading :) |
| 10:17:52 | <stengah> | but always found myself stuck when doing thinhs |
| 10:18:06 | <tomsmeding> | stengah: which means that you haven't been doing things often enough ;) |
| 10:18:07 | <stengah> | s/thinhs/code |
| 10:18:13 | <stengah> | yeah! |
| 10:18:16 | <tomsmeding> | so do more things! |
| 10:18:42 | <stengah> | I shall do things from now on :) |
| 10:18:50 | <tomsmeding> | (sounds like I'm making a joke now but I really am not, practice makes perfect, especially in haskell) |
| 10:20:25 | <sm> | +1 |
| 10:21:15 | <stengah> | I am going to do things |
| 10:21:18 | <stengah> | starting now |
| 10:21:26 | <stengah> | brb |
| 10:21:27 | <sm> | be warned, it can also make you crazy. There sure is a lot to trip you up in haskell. |
| 10:21:34 | <bluenode> | can confirm. |
| 10:22:02 | sm | was going along fine for ages and suddenly it's dragons at every turn |
| 10:23:30 | <stengah> | I have you guys for that. |
| 10:23:43 | <stengah> | those who came before me |
| 10:23:46 | <stengah> | :) |
| 10:24:40 | <bluenode> | i find writing basic scripts to be more practical than ghci to help me learn haskell |
| 10:24:57 | <maerwald> | tomsmeding: do you think so? |
| 10:25:03 | <maerwald> | I'm not sure actually |
| 10:25:33 | <bluenode> | what's the best way to leverage scripts to learn the language? do you print things as you go along? do you run it in the debugger with breakpoints? |
| 10:25:52 | <maerwald> | debugger? :D |
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| 10:29:18 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: that practice is especially important with haskell you mean? |
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| 10:29:47 | <tomsmeding> | I'm saying that mostly in contrast with learning something new in the imperative world if you know a bit of imperative programming |
| 10:29:58 | <tomsmeding> | you're not going to get the functional programming mindset without _doing_ it |
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| 10:30:18 | <maerwald> | tomsmeding: no, my hunch is that practice doesn't make a better programmer, because you usually stay in your bubble if you just ramp up programming time |
| 10:30:32 | <tomsmeding> | you do have a point there |
| 10:30:40 | <maerwald> | so I think it's more exposure to other programmers |
| 10:30:41 | <tomsmeding> | but to get there you need to have done practice already |
| 10:30:43 | <jacks2> | hi. thoughts on doing this with System.Console.Ansi: private to module themeRef = unsafePerformIO $ newTVarIO defaultTheme; and then expose withTheme :: Theme -> IO a -> IO a ? |
| 10:31:00 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: OP said that they'd read two (!) books on haskell and written some <200 line programs |
| 10:31:08 | <tomsmeding> | to me that sounds like an off-balance scale |
| 10:31:22 | <maerwald> | the times I really felt I've learned something usually was either 1) contributing to a project I didn't start or 2) coding with a work colleague who had wildly different mindset/style |
| 10:31:24 | <tomsmeding> | once you've righted that balance, you can start thinking about learning more good things |
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| 10:32:02 | <maerwald> | practice just makes you faster/more efficient in what you naturally are good at |
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| 10:32:21 | <tomsmeding> | and you need some baseline of efficiency in order to effectively build on the knowledge |
| 10:32:34 | <tomsmeding> | you're right that practice won't make perfect, that was the wrong phrase perhaps |
| 10:32:53 | <tomsmeding> | but with too little practice you're not going to get good either |
| 10:34:11 | <bluenode> | speaking of which |
| 10:34:13 | <jacks2> | where theme is something like this: withTheme theme action = do setTheme and update global reference..; check for nested calls; `finally` restore default theme |
| 10:34:14 | <bluenode> | why won't this compile |
| 10:34:17 | <bluenode> | myList = ["foo", "bar"] |
| 10:34:17 | <bluenode> | "hello" : myList |
| 10:34:26 | <jacks2> | +call action |
| 10:34:28 | <bluenode> | (in a script, not in ghci) |
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| 10:35:07 | <xsperry> | : is wrong syntax for that. you already defined myList in previous line, type was inferred, and you can't change it |
| 10:35:41 | <bluenode> | xsperry: ok so how am i supposed to do it? |
| 10:36:16 | <bluenode> | and why is it wrong syntax if it's in the docs https://wiki.haskell.org/How_to_work_on_lists |
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| 10:36:26 | <xsperry> | myList = ["foo", "bar"] :: [Type] |
| 10:36:50 | <xsperry> | oh, you are using (:) |
| 10:37:05 | <xsperry> | see the type of (:) |
| 10:37:14 | <xsperry> | :t (:) |
| 10:37:16 | <lambdabot> | a -> [a] -> [a] |
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| 10:37:48 | <xsperry> | what is the type of myList? |
| 10:38:07 | <bluenode> | [String] |
| 10:38:21 | <xsperry> | that doesn't type check. first argument is a, second [a] |
| 10:38:39 | <bluenode> | why does it work on ghci?? |
| 10:38:46 | <stengah> | tomsmeding: I never thought about balance between reading books and _doing_ it |
| 10:38:47 | <xsperry> | I doubt it does |
| 10:39:09 | <stengah> | I thank you for pointing me. |
| 10:39:10 | <bluenode> | xsperry: it does, try it for yourself |
| 10:39:28 | <jacks2> | bluenode what is the error |
| 10:39:44 | <bluenode> | jacks2: Parse error: module header, import declaration or top-level declaration expected.typecheck |
| 10:40:01 | <jacks2> | you can't put arbitrary code at top level |
| 10:40:38 | <phaazon> | I realize that the problem I tried to fix yesterday is probably unsound, but I would like to be sure |
| 10:40:40 | <jacks2> | top-level = outside of functions |
| 10:41:04 | <bluenode> | jacks2: but i can do plenty of things at the top-level; i can define that list, print elements in it, etc. |
| 10:41:34 | <jacks2> | but you can't do naked "hello" : mylist |
| 10:41:46 | <jacks2> | what would that even accomplish |
| 10:42:05 | <bluenode> | i am just trying to append a new element to a list |
| 10:42:24 | <tomsmeding> | bluenode: you can't modify the list, you can only create a new list that is "the old list with a new element in front of it" |
| 10:42:32 | <jacks2> | so assign it to a top-level variable |
| 10:42:47 | <bluenode> | so lists are immutable in scripts but NOT in ghci? |
| 10:42:47 | <tomsmeding> | writing '"hello" : myList' is like writing '1 + 2' -- it doesn't actually modify anything, it just computes a value |
| 10:42:49 | <jacks2> | newList = "hello" : myList |
| 10:43:01 | <tomsmeding> | bluenode: lists are also immutable in ghci |
| 10:43:13 | <phaazon> | given a parametric typeclass (two type variables) representing a « backend feature » some backend packages will implement it for a set of parameters (second type variables), but they won’t implement the same; the big thing is that, I want to find a way to express values depending on that typeclass so that the second type variable is inferred from the use, a bit like a rank-N quantification; |
| 10:43:15 | <phaazon> | the end goal is that I don’t want to restrict backends to all implement the same types for this second variable, and I don’t want users to annotate all the possible type classes; any idea? I tried both in Haskell and Rust and I have no solution |
| 10:43:16 | <bluenode> | tomsmedding: why does this work: |
| 10:43:17 | <bluenode> | Prelude> myList = ["foo", "bar"] |
| 10:43:17 | <bluenode> | Prelude> "hello" : myList |
| 10:43:18 | <bluenode> | ["hello","foo","bar"] |
| 10:43:23 | <jacks2> | yes (:) doesn't mutate original list. there's no way to mutate it |
| 10:43:25 | <tomsmeding> | > 1 + 2 |
| 10:43:26 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
| 10:43:33 | <tomsmeding> | bluenode: evaluating an expression gives a value :) |
| 10:43:39 | <phaazon> | I guess the thing I want is really a rank-N constraint but I have no idea how to do that |
| 10:43:41 | <tomsmeding> | bluenode: try typing "myList" after that |
| 10:43:44 | <tomsmeding> | it didn't change |
| 10:44:59 | <phaazon> | so for instance in some end-user code, right now, you need something like foo :: (Backend b Int, Backend b Double, Backend b Bool) => … |
| 10:45:10 | <phaazon> | I want foo :: ExistsBackend b => … |
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| 10:46:10 | <bluenode> | tomsmeding jacks2: so to the expression result being unused produces a "import declaration or top-level declaration expected" error. |
| 10:46:18 | <tomsmeding> | phaazon: what will determine what that second type parameter is? The caller, or because there _is_ only one instance of Backend with that b parameter, or something else? |
| 10:46:22 | <phaazon> | in Rust it would be fn foo<B>(…) where B: Backend<i32> + Backend<f64> + Backend<bool>, and what I want would be fn foo<B>(…) where B: for<T> Backend<T>, // hence why I mention « rank-N » constraint |
| 10:46:34 | <kuribas> | phaazon: can't you use a type family? |
| 10:46:40 | <phaazon> | tomsmeding: the user code, mainly |
| 10:46:43 | <tomsmeding> | bluenode: because writing an expression that does nothing at the top level is useless, haskell disallows it |
| 10:46:46 | <phaazon> | it’s like « this backend can do that with this T » |
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| 10:47:04 | <phaazon> | imagine like the backend is a database, and the second variable is whether it knows how to handle a given type row |
| 10:47:17 | <bluenode> | tomsmeding: i get it now. but you gotta admit that the compilation error message was misleading |
| 10:47:18 | <jacks2> | bluenode, result being unused it not a problem, using code that isn't valid at top-level, at top-level, is |
| 10:47:20 | <phaazon> | I « could » move that to the abstraction, but then all backends would be required to implement all the same types |
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| 10:47:27 | <phaazon> | so it would mean leveling by the bottom, or having runtime checks |
| 10:47:29 | <sm> | bluenode: printing things as you go is helpful, and especially master Debug.Trace |
| 10:47:30 | <tomsmeding> | phaazon: if there is only ever one t for a b in the Backend b t type class, you can add a functional dependency b -> t to the Backend type class |
| 10:47:34 | <phaazon> | kuribas: I tried with that, I failed |
| 10:47:54 | <phaazon> | tomsmeding: I showed example where you have several values |
| 10:47:54 | <tomsmeding> | if the caller of 'foo' needs to decide, they need a way to express their decision |
| 10:48:05 | <phaazon> | i.e. this: |
| 10:48:15 | <phaazon> | phaazon | so for instance in some end-user code, right now, you need something like foo :: (Backend b Int, Backend b Double, Backend b Bool) => … |
| 10:48:33 | <phaazon> | maybe that problem is unsound and there is no solution |
| 10:48:38 | <tomsmeding> | 'foo :: forall t b. Backend b t => ...'; then use 'foo @Int' or 'foo @Bool' in user code? |
| 10:48:47 | <phaazon> | I thought QuantifiedConstrain was a solution but awpr showed me yesterday it won’t work |
| 10:48:56 | <phaazon> | QuantifiedConstraint* |
| 10:48:56 | <tomsmeding> | (not sure if this solves your problem, but the reason why it doesn't helps me understand what the problem is) |
| 10:49:12 | <tomsmeding> | also yeah you can have '(forall t. Backend b t) =>', but that's forall, not exists |
| 10:49:25 | <phaazon> | yeah, that’s QuantifiedConstraint, it won’t help |
| 10:49:30 | <phaazon> | maybe the problem is that I’m designing this wrong |
| 10:50:08 | <kuribas> | phaazon: I find it hard to understand what you are solving? |
| 10:50:10 | <jacks2> | bluenode, what is legal at top-level: imports, type and value declarations, module clause, pragmas |
| 10:50:15 | <phaazon> | tomsmeding: so basically, without talking code, what I want to do is that I have two packages, one user facing, one backend package (we could have many backend packages and I actually have many) |
| 10:50:19 | <kuribas> | phaazon: maybe some example code could be helpful. |
| 10:50:45 | <phaazon> | I have this as a Rust example, if you want |
| 10:51:04 | <phaazon> | I thought that if I can’t solve that in Haskell, I won’t be able to solve it in Rust :D |
| 10:51:45 | <phaazon> | but mainly, the idea is that I there is a « backe type » in each backend package that will implement a typeclass in the user-facing package, and they will implement it for various types that are compatible with the bcakend |
| 10:52:05 | <phaazon> | when the user wants to abstract other the backends, they can’t assume the backend implements the types they want |
| 10:52:26 | <tomsmeding> | phaazon: as I understand your problem (please correct me!), you have a number of backends, each of which have some base type 'b' and implement some interface for one or more value types 't'. You want to write a function 'foo' that is generic over both the backend base type and the value type. |
| 10:52:40 | <phaazon> | so if they use an Int and Bool version in their code, right now, they need to provide the constraints manually, as in (Backend t Int, Backend t BOol) |
| 10:53:10 | <kuribas> | phaazon: so you want to move the supported types somewhere else? |
| 10:53:14 | <tomsmeding> | oh wait you want ghc to infer the necessary Int/Bool values automatically? |
| 10:53:15 | <phaazon> | tomsmeding: there’s no fundep between b and t |
| 10:53:19 | <phaazon> | kuribas: yes |
| 10:53:22 | <phaazon> | I want them to be rank-N |
| 10:53:26 | <phaazon> | tomsmeding: yes |
| 10:53:33 | <tomsmeding> | ghc won't do that |
| 10:53:38 | <tomsmeding> | at least, not with this setup |
| 10:54:01 | <tomsmeding> | if you want to let ghc do type inference, you should just not give the function a type signature |
| 10:54:06 | <tomsmeding> | otherwise it won't |
| 10:54:07 | <phaazon> | instead of (Backend b Int, Backend b Bool), I want (exists t. Backend b t) => UniversalBackend b |
| 10:54:12 | <phaazon> | something like that |
| 10:54:37 | <tomsmeding> | where ghc decides, based on the function body of 'foo', what the constraints of 'foo' need to actually be? |
| 10:54:48 | <phaazon> | argh, I thought it was somehow possible to introduce that kind of existential quantification |
| 10:54:57 | <phaazon> | tomsmeding: it has to look at the content |
| 10:55:01 | <phaazon> | a bit like what you would do with rank-2 |
| 10:55:02 | <kuribas> | phaazon: those constraints look very reasonable to me. |
| 10:55:06 | <tomsmeding> | the content of _what_ exactly? |
| 10:55:13 | <tomsmeding> | of an argument? of foo? |
| 10:55:15 | <phaazon> | tomsmeding: the right side of the expression |
| 10:55:21 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 10:55:22 | <phaazon> | i.e. where you use « b » |
| 10:55:23 | <tomsmeding> | that's impossible |
| 10:55:25 | <phaazon> | like in rank-2 |
| 10:55:27 | <phaazon> | oh :( |
| 10:55:33 | <tomsmeding> | rank-2 is something differnt |
| 10:55:34 | <kuribas> | phaazon: rank-N is a forall right? But in your case you want to limit the types. |
| 10:55:47 | <phaazon> | it’s not that different to me |
| 10:55:50 | <tomsmeding> | rank-2 is allowing a polymorphic function as argument to a function |
| 10:55:59 | <tomsmeding> | (an _explicitly_ polymorphic one) |
| 10:56:11 | <kuribas> | phaazon: also, rank-N is not inferred. |
| 10:56:38 | <tomsmeding> | there it's not that ghc decides what instantiations are necessary based on the right-hand side, it's that you as the programmer require in the type signature that the argument needs to be fully generic |
| 10:56:46 | <tomsmeding> | it's like foo :: (forall t. Backend b t) => ... |
| 10:56:47 | <phaazon> | foo :: (forall a. SomeConstraint a => a -> IO) -> …; inside foo, when can use foo for different types that will be checked inside the expression, but they won’t work nor all the types |
| 10:56:57 | <phaazon> | so I thought it would be possible to do the same with type inference on the constraints |
| 10:57:13 | <phaazon> | that sentence wasn’t very English, I hope you got what I meant :D |
| 10:57:17 | <tomsmeding> | you can write something like that using rank-N types and quantifiedconstraints, but ghc won't _infer_ it |
| 10:57:23 | <kuribas> | phaazon: or do you want to have a set of types which are supported by all backends? |
| 10:57:39 | <tomsmeding> | s/something like that/precisely that |
| 10:57:39 | <phaazon> | kuribas: so that’s the « leveling by the bottom » thing |
| 10:57:39 | <kuribas> | phaazon: you could use a constraint type synonym. |
| 10:57:42 | <phaazon> | and no, I don’t want that |
| 10:57:48 | <phaazon> | right now, this is what it looks like in real code: |
| 10:58:19 | <phaazon> | https://github.com/phaazon/luminance-rs/blob/master/examples/common/src/polymorphic_hello_world.rs#L115-L128 |
| 10:58:30 | <phaazon> | (it’s Rust, but you should be able to see the problem quickly even without knowing Rust :D) |
| 10:58:51 | <phaazon> | for every usage in the user client, I need to add another constraint here |
| 10:58:54 | <phaazon> | it’s… really annoying |
| 10:58:57 | <tomsmeding> | well that trick you can do with type classes too |
| 10:58:59 | <phaazon> | hence why I wanted some kind of rank-N |
| 10:59:13 | <phaazon> | tomsmeding: what do you mean? |
| 10:59:21 | <tomsmeding> | rank-N gives you more freedom in specifying types and constraints; it doesn't do anything with ghc's inference |
| 10:59:28 | <phaazon> | also, I presented that as a technical problem, but maybe it’s a design problem and there is a better way to do that |
| 10:59:47 | <phaazon> | I don’t want to restrict all backends to implement the same types |
| 10:59:50 | <phaazon> | it would be obviously easier |
| 11:00:04 | <phaazon> | but it would have huge impcat |
| 11:00:06 | <tomsmeding> | class (Pipeline Dim2 a, RenderGate a, TessBackend () () () Interleaved a, ...) => Luminance a; instance (Pipeline Dim2 a, RenderGate a, TessBackend () () () Interleaved a, ...) => Luminance a |
| 11:00:14 | <tomsmeding> | now Luminance is a synonym of those things |
| 11:00:18 | <phaazon> | i.e. what if a backend doesn’t support a type? should it return an Either e a? then I have runtime checks, etc. |
| 11:00:23 | <tomsmeding> | which is what you're doing here in rust, right? |
| 11:00:29 | <phaazon> | tomsmeding: that’s what I do in Rust too |
| 11:00:35 | <phaazon> | but I still need to annotate the « user » types here |
| 11:00:37 | <phaazon> | so that’s not universal |
| 11:00:42 | <phaazon> | yes it is |
| 11:00:42 | <tomsmeding> | yeah I was saying, you can do this same thing with type classes :p |
| 11:00:45 | <tomsmeding> | doesn't solve anything yet |
| 11:00:51 | <phaazon> | https://github.com/phaazon/luminance-rs/blob/master/examples/common/src/polymorphic_hello_world.rs#L115-L128 here |
| 11:01:30 | <tomsmeding> | you'll have to manually annotate what second-type-parameter-of-Backend's the function 'foo' requires |
| 11:01:39 | <phaazon> | so there is no solution to this problem :( |
| 11:02:00 | <tomsmeding> | as I understand it, not really no |
| 11:02:07 | <kuribas> | phaazon: the type has to have all the constraints of the function. |
| 11:02:10 | <phaazon> | besides either requiring all backends to support all types; taking the maximum of them leads to runtime checks — I don’t want that; taking the minimum is leveling by the bottom |
| 11:02:24 | <tomsmeding> | but what is the _problem_? That you don't want to write out all the constraints because verbosity? |
| 11:02:29 | <tomsmeding> | like, I accept that as a problem :p |
| 11:02:34 | <phaazon> | tomsmeding: yes |
| 11:02:39 | <phaazon> | that’s the problem |
| 11:02:47 | <kuribas> | phaazon: make a big constraint type synonym with common constraints? |
| 11:02:56 | <phaazon> | that’s not possible |
| 11:02:58 | <tomsmeding> | AFAIK that's impossible to solve in this particular case |
| 11:03:04 | <phaazon> | for instance, in the example I showed, Vertex is a user type |
| 11:03:04 | <Franciman> | hi phaazon long time no see |
| 11:03:06 | <tomsmeding> | aside from kuribas's last suggestion right now |
| 11:03:08 | <Franciman> | everything alright? |
| 11:03:09 | <phaazon> | and there is no « default Vertex » |
| 11:03:23 | <phaazon> | hi Franciman! yeah I’ve been lurking here for ~10 years :D |
| 11:03:27 | <phaazon> | yeah all good, what about you? |
| 11:03:34 | <jacks2> | bluenode, while beginner questions are fine in here too, there's #haskell-beginners when this channel gets a bit busy, like now. os if you have any more questions you might want to try there |
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| 11:03:57 | <phaazon> | tomsmeding: kuribas yeah, thanks for your hindsight, it’s been two days I’ve been trying to find a solution |
| 11:04:05 | <phaazon> | I found « one » but then I can’t write the instances |
| 11:04:08 | <phaazon> | so it’s not usable |
| 11:04:09 | <bluenode> | jacks2: (y) i didnt know about that channel, ill go lurk there |
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| 11:06:12 | <tomsmeding> | phaazon: one way I guess is that it's possible to write a type class Backends so that "Backends b '[Int, Bool, Char]" is the same as "(Backend b Int, Backend b Bool, Backend b Char)" |
| 11:06:14 | <tomsmeding> | if that helps |
| 11:07:01 | <phaazon> | well I thought about that but it’s a lot of work for no real improvement |
| 11:07:15 | <phaazon> | I thought ghc could find a way to infer the constraint for me |
| 11:07:19 | <phaazon> | given the user code |
| 11:07:29 | <tomsmeding> | it can, right? if you don't give a type signature |
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| 11:08:02 | <kuribas> | phaazon: haskell is often verbose on the type level, that's just how it is. |
| 11:08:09 | <kuribas> | phaazon: type synonyms can often help there. |
| 11:08:23 | <phaazon> | sure, the problem is the same in Rust |
| 11:08:35 | <phaazon> | my « super trait » allows to use SuperTrait instead of the whole list of constraints |
| 11:08:40 | <phaazon> | but yet, if the user adds a new usage |
| 11:08:44 | <phaazon> | like with a new Vertex type for instance |
| 11:08:49 | <phaazon> | they will have to add another constraint to the list |
| 11:08:59 | <kuribas> | phaazon: the user can make his own type synonym. |
| 11:09:11 | <phaazon> | yes, which is currently what people do if they require polymorphic code |
| 11:09:16 | <phaazon> | and they complained about that |
| 11:09:34 | <phaazon> | I have a solution for people who don’t care that much about abstracting over the backend and let the compiler do the work for you |
| 11:10:14 | <phaazon> | (I select the backend type at compilation time using the compilation target and replace types like TheType back a b c t… by TheType a b c t… |
| 11:10:21 | <phaazon> | for this last use case, there is no issue |
| 11:10:36 | <phaazon> | but for the case where people want the backend explicitely stated as a type variable… |
| 11:10:38 | <phaazon> | :( |
| 11:10:42 | <kuribas> | phaazon: or... you could not track the backend in the type system, and just throw an exception. |
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| 11:10:54 | <phaazon> | how do you track it? |
| 11:10:56 | <phaazon> | at runtime? |
| 11:11:14 | <kuribas> | yes |
| 11:11:23 | <phaazon> | that’s not okay to me, the whole purpose of all of this is to make it safer at compile-time |
| 11:11:25 | <kuribas> | then the backend is just a record of maybe functions. |
| 11:11:36 | <phaazon> | yeah, nah :D |
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| 11:11:58 | <kuribas> | phaazon: or group the functionality in features. |
| 11:12:10 | <kuribas> | you cannot have type-safety and not tracking stuff in types. |
| 11:12:13 | <phaazon> | maybe I will end up forcing backends to implement the same types |
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| 11:12:18 | <phaazon> | and « whatever » : |
| 11:12:20 | <phaazon> | :D |
| 11:12:39 | <phaazon> | kuribas: oh it would be tracked, but at the expression level, not at the head level |
| 11:12:43 | <phaazon> | I guess I’m dreaming |
| 11:13:12 | <kuribas> | phaazon: if you want *proof* that the backend supports it, it means you track at type level. |
| 11:13:58 | <phaazon> | yeah, hence why I have so many constraints right now :D |
| 11:14:53 | <kuribas> | group the constraints in features, then there has to be only a constraint per feature. |
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| 11:16:25 | <phaazon> | I don’t see how it’s doable |
| 11:17:19 | <phaazon> | thanks for the hindsight :) maybe I will end up restricting types in the user package and pray for no backend supporting more :D |
| 11:17:53 | <kuribas> | Or at least, make some feature mandatory, then there don't have to be constraints for those. |
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| 11:23:07 | <kuribas> | phaazon: so only constraints for features that are possibly not supported by the backend. |
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| 12:11:48 | <Midjak> | Hi there |
| 12:12:23 | <yushyin> | hi Midjak |
| 12:13:50 | <Midjak> | I am a beginner is this channel ok for newbie question ? Or is there some channel for beginners ? |
| 12:15:04 | <yushyin> | Midjak: beginner questions are welcome here, but if you feel that there is too much going on and your question is not getting through, there is also #haskell-beginners |
| 12:16:30 | <Midjak> | Nice! Thank you yushyin |
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| 13:01:47 | <Midjak> | I have a fresh Haskell install pn macosx 11. When I try to install dependencies of a project I get an error about Cocoa. https://paste.tomsmeding.com/NBeA8Lci |
| 13:02:44 | <Midjak> | I am looking on the internet. Any idea ? |
| 13:04:08 | Midjak | looking this https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/18592 |
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| 13:09:30 | <sm> | Midjak: it sounds like using a newer GHC version might fix it |
| 13:09:42 | <Midjak> | yes sm |
| 13:09:42 | <sm> | add --resolver=lts-18, eg |
| 13:10:10 | <Midjak> | what does it means sm ? |
| 13:11:04 | <Midjak> | I am looking what GHC version I have |
| 13:11:27 | <Midjak> | I know I am on the stable release. |
| 13:11:36 | <sm> | resolver means snapshot, it tells stack which set of packages and which GHC version to use |
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| 13:11:54 | <Midjak> | ok thank you sm |
| 13:12:35 | <sm> | since you didn't specify a resolver in your command, it used the one in $HOME/.stack/global-project/stack.yaml. Yours seems a bit old since it has GHC 8.8.4, GHC 8.10 is the current best version |
| 13:12:59 | <Midjak> | ok I am going to upgrade this |
| 13:13:28 | <Midjak> | in fact I have made a default installation but I think 8.8.4 is related to a previous install |
| 13:13:42 | <Midjak> | just now, the default install |
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| 13:19:24 | <Midjak> | it works with the proper resolver. thank you sm |
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| 13:20:07 | <sm> | no problem Midjak |
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| 13:28:18 | <Glassy> | Hi I'm trying to learn how to use mutable unboxed vectors with ST. Suppose I create a new mutable vector (new 5) that holds 5 integers, what type should I give (new 5)? I've tried (forall s. ST s (STVector S Int) which doesn't seem to work. |
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| 13:28:31 | <Glassy> | i think it returns a reference actually not a mutable vector |
| 13:28:49 | <sm> | what does :t say it is in GHCI ? |
| 13:29:16 | <Glassy> | i've actually never included a package in ghci, let me learn how to do that |
| 13:29:31 | <sm> | ghci -package vector, might work |
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| 13:29:58 | <Glassy> | cannot satisfy, i guess i need to make a stack project |
| 13:30:10 | <sm> | stack ghci --package vector, then |
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| 13:37:46 | <Glassy> | the command finished, `new 5 |
| 13:37:47 | <Glassy> | :: (primitive-0.7.2.0:Control.Monad.Primitive.PrimMonad m, |
| 13:37:47 | <Glassy> | Unbox a) => |
| 13:37:48 | <Glassy> | m (MVector |
| 13:37:48 | <Glassy> | (primitive-0.7.2.0:Control.Monad.Primitive.PrimState m) a) |
| 13:37:49 | <Glassy> | ` |
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| 13:40:27 | <hpc> | that looks like ST s (STVector s a)? |
| 13:40:51 | <hpc> | or, MVcetor |
| 13:41:48 | <Glassy> | what exactly is primstate/ |
| 13:43:04 | <Glassy> | it kind of looks like some sort of type family? |
| 13:43:10 | <hpc> | it's a type family, yeah |
| 13:43:15 | <hpc> | for ST, it does https://hackage.haskell.org/package/primitive-0.7.2.0/docs/src/Control.Monad.Primitive.html#line-213 |
| 13:43:29 | <hpc> | so (PrimState (ST s)) ~ s |
| 13:45:27 | <Glassy> | thank you |
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| 13:50:17 | <Glassy> | why does `y= new 2 :: (forall s. ST s (STVector s Int))` work but `y :: (forall s. ST s (STVector s Int)) = new 2` doesn't? |
| 13:50:34 | <Glassy> | this is with `:set -XRankNTypes` and `:set -XScopedTypeVariables` in GHCi |
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| 13:53:57 | <hpc> | weird rank n stuff? |
| 13:54:12 | <hpc> | for the longest time even ($) didn't work quite right with it |
| 13:54:30 | <Glassy> | is ($) type level? |
| 13:54:38 | <hpc> | :t ($) |
| 13:54:40 | <lambdabot> | (a -> b) -> a -> b |
| 13:54:47 | <Glassy> | oh i was wondering if you promoted it or something |
| 13:54:52 | <Glassy> | oh you just mean normal application |
| 13:54:56 | <hpc> | yeah |
| 13:55:21 | <hpc> | like you couldn't do runST $ do ..., because ($) breaks the forall s |
| 13:55:45 | <Glassy> | rankN is a really old extension though i think |
| 13:56:22 | <ski> | hm, i think a pattern signature is before generalization ? |
| 13:56:38 | <ski> | try `let y :: ...; y = ...' instead ? |
| 13:59:06 | <Glassy> | yeah it works `f x = 2 where y :: (forall s. ST s (STVector s Int)); y = new 2 |
| 13:59:06 | <Glassy> | ` |
| 13:59:11 | <Glassy> | also with where is fine |
| 13:59:53 | <Glassy> | kinda strange but i guess i'll just put my type signature on the line above or to the right |
| 14:01:15 | <ski> | in `y= new 2 :: (forall s. ST s (STVector s Int))', you're checking that `new 2' is polymorphic, then immediately specializing it to `ST _s (STVector _s Int)' for a new type variable `_s', and `y' gets this type, which is then generalized back to `forall s. ST s (STVector s Int)' |
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| 14:02:34 | <Glassy> | is it because my type is too polymorphic? |
| 14:02:47 | <Glassy> | like if i actually knew the state `s` it would work (not that I do)? |
| 14:03:02 | <ski> | in `y :: (forall s. ST s (STVector s Int)) = new 2', `new 2' has type `ST _s (STVector _s Int)' (`new' is polymorphic, but is specialized upon use). so (i think), `y' (before generalization) gets type `ST _s (STVector _s Int)', and then you're attempting to check that it (already) has type `forall s. ST s (STVector s Int)', with the pattern signature, and apparently that doesn't work, since, it seems, |
| 14:03:08 | <ski> | generalization only happens *after* this check |
| 14:03:26 | <ski> | none of the types here are polymorphic, they're all monomorphic |
| 14:04:34 | <ski> | (`forall s. ST s (STVector s Int)' is not a polymorphic type, and neither is `ST _s (STVector _s Int)'. they're both monomorphic. the first is a universal type, a `forall'-type. `forall'-types are the types of polymorphic *values*. a polymorphic *type* is something else) |
| 14:04:56 | <Glassy> | why does the forall type get converted? |
| 14:05:02 | <ski> | converted, how ? |
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| 14:05:23 | <Glassy> | so my `forall s. ST s (STVector s Int)' becomes 'ST _s (STVector _s Int)'? |
| 14:05:36 | <ski> | that's polymorphic instantiation |
| 14:06:19 | <ski> | every time (apart from `PolymorphicComponents'/`Rank2Types'/`RankNTypes') you use a polymorphic value, that happens |
| 14:06:44 | <Glassy> | is this like giving it an `s` to substitute? |
| 14:07:13 | <Glassy> | sorry i've studied analysis but not lambda calculus so i haven't heard of polymorphic instantiation before |
| 14:07:30 | <Glassy> | maybe i need to go read a book? |
| 14:07:39 | <ski> | if you call `map toLower "Foo"', then `map' which has type `forall a b. (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]', gets (implicitly) specialized, its type becomes instantiated to `(Char -> Char) -> [Char] -> [Char]' (by setting `a' and `b' to `Char') |
| 14:08:03 | <Glassy> | okay yup sure |
| 14:08:12 | <ski> | let's take `reverse', or `take' |
| 14:08:33 | <ski> | take :: Int -> [Integer] -> [Integer] |
| 14:08:41 | <ski> | is one valid signature for `take' |
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| 14:08:43 | <ski> | another one is |
| 14:09:02 | <ski> | take :: Int -> [(Bool,Integer,IO String)] -> [(Bool,Integer,IO String)] |
| 14:09:25 | <ski> | `take' has infinitely many types (hence "poly"-"morphic", "many" "shapes") |
| 14:09:29 | <Glassy> | yup sure |
| 14:09:30 | <ski> | but they're all of the pattern |
| 14:09:37 | <ski> | take :: Int -> [a] -> [a] |
| 14:09:47 | <ski> | where `a' is any type. has to be the same type in both places |
| 14:10:08 | <ski> | however, taking one step back, the actual type of `take' is |
| 14:10:17 | <ski> | take :: forall a. Int -> [a] -> [a] |
| 14:11:26 | <ski> | Haskell allows one to omit the explicit `forall', commonly (but not always). but conceptually, it's still there, for `take' |
| 14:12:37 | <ski> | note that, strictly speaking, under this view, `take' is not a function. it's a "polymorphic value". functions are values whose types have the shape `... -> ...'. polymorphic values are values whose types have the shape `forall a. ..a..' |
| 14:12:57 | <ski> | `take' is a polymorphic value that, once specialized, becomes a function |
| 14:13:27 | <ski> | just like `[2,3,5,7]' is not a number. it's a list that, once you extract an element from it, you get a number |
| 14:14:25 | <ski> | however, you explicitly have to write code, to extract elements from a list. while, for polymorphic values, they *implicitly*, without you writing any extra code, gets converted to their specialization |
| 14:14:37 | <Glassy> | alright |
| 14:15:33 | <ski> | in `(reverse [2,3,5,7 :: Integer],reverse [True,False])', the first `reverse' is specialized to have type `[Integer] -> [Integer]', while the second `reverse' is specialized to have type `[Bool] -> [Bool]' |
| 14:16:16 | <Glassy> | is this like the monomorphism restriction? how if you don't give something a type signature and use it once it gets specialised to something concrete? |
| 14:16:24 | <ski> | there is actually an extension that allows you to write the specialization explicitly. it'd look like `(reverse @Integer [2,3,5,7],reverse @Bool [True,False])'. but if you don't use this, specialization happens implicitly |
| 14:16:33 | <Glassy> | type application? |
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| 14:16:38 | <ski> | yea |
| 14:17:06 | <Glassy> | yup i've used it for when things the type checker can't figure out the right type |
| 14:17:07 | <ski> | DMR isn't really that similar to this, no |
| 14:17:16 | <Glassy> | DMR? |
| 14:17:24 | <ski> | Dreaded Monomorphism Restriction |
| 14:17:43 | <Glassy> | lololol never heard of it like that |
| 14:17:47 | <Glassy> | i thought it made your code speedy |
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| 14:20:12 | <ski> | it was introduced, as a way to avoid getting surprises that some computation wasn't cached under lazy evaluation, due to (type class) constrained polymorphism being inferred. unfortunately, DMR itself is causing a different confusion (especially for newbies), who wonders why their code isn't polymorphic when they expected it to be |
| 14:21:06 | <ski> | anyway, please don't think that `Int -> [a] -> [a]' is "short for" `forall a. Int -> [a] -> [a]'. it is not |
| 14:21:33 | <Glassy> | oh so is it a hack? |
| 14:21:50 | <ski> | `take :: Int -> [a] -> [a]' is (usually) "short for" `take :: forall a. Int -> [a] -> [a]'. this is different |
| 14:21:58 | <ski> | this only happens "directly after a `::'" |
| 14:22:44 | <ski> | being able to write `take :: Int -> [a] -> [a]' is nothing deep. it's just a handy (and sometimes confusing) abbreviation |
| 14:23:09 | <jacks2> | ski, how is it difference? I'm looking at both types, and I can't see any difference |
| 14:23:13 | <jacks2> | different* |
| 14:23:52 | <ski> | if, however, `Int -> [a] -> [a]' was actually short for `forall a. Int -> [a] -> [a]', then that would mean that e.g. `foo :: (Int -> [a] -> [a]) -> (Int -> [a] -> [a])' was short for `foo :: (forall a. Int -> [a] -> [a]) -> (forall a. Int -> [a] -> [a])' -- which is completely incorrect |
| 14:24:33 | <ski> | similarly, it would also mean that `data Bar a = MkBar (Int -> [a] -> [a])' was short for `data Bar a = MkBar (forall a. Int -> [a] -> [a])' -- which is also false |
| 14:25:14 | <ski> | "insertion of implicit `forall'" *only* happens directly after a `::' ! |
| 14:25:33 | <Glassy> | oh so is this like the compiler saying that's what we think you meant? |
| 14:25:38 | <ski> | it's not the type `Int -> [a] -> [a]' which means `forall a. Int -> [a] -> [a]' |
| 14:25:39 | <Glassy> | i know some languages require explicit forall |
| 14:26:23 | <ski> | it's the type *signature* `take :: Int -> [a] -> [a]' (which strictly speaking has an unbound type variable `a') which is taken to mean `take :: forall a. Int -> [a] -> [a]' (in which the type variable `a' is bound by the `forall') |
| 14:26:50 | <Glassy> | but in `data Bar a` that's because a is typically bound to something like Int or String and in take :: Int -> [a] -> [a] we don't have some variable a so there is nothing else reasonable to do but add forall a. ? |
| 14:27:17 | <Glassy> | maybe this is lazy haha |
| 14:27:37 | <ski> | Glassy : yes. that makes for less confusion about this issue. like i said, being able to omit (sometimes) `forall' in Haskell, is nothing conceptually deep. it's just "make the compiler insert a `forall' that i was too lazy to spell out", in some situations |
| 14:27:51 | <Glassy> | okay yup cool |
| 14:27:53 | <ski> | "oh so is this like the compiler saying that's what we think you meant?" -- exactly |
| 14:28:02 | <Glassy> | so how does this relate to the specialisation and generalisation? |
| 14:28:10 | <Glassy> | in my where pattern |
| 14:29:20 | <ski> | Glassy : in `data Bar a = ..a..', the `Bar a' part binds the tyvar `a'. in `take :: forall a. ..a..', the `forall' binds `a' |
| 14:29:44 | <Glassy> | sure |
| 14:30:27 | <Glassy> | but i meant where does the specialization happen in `y :: (forall s. ST s (STVector s Int)) = new 2` |
| 14:30:28 | <ski> | compare the `data Bar a = ..a..' situation with `f x = x*x + 1', where `f x' binds `x' in the body `x*x + 1'. and compare `forall a. ..a..' to `\x -> x*x + 1'. it's not exactly the same thing, but the binding behaviour is similar |
| 14:30:50 | <Glassy> | is this because `new 2` finds itself a nice thing to put for `s`? |
| 14:31:15 | <Glassy> | and it doesn't get regeneralized? |
| 14:33:02 | <ski> | well, the type of `new' here is `forall s. Int -> ST s (STVector s a)' (simplifying somewhat from the more general situation, with overloading over different types of mutable vectors) |
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| 14:33:43 | <ski> | er, actually, `forall s a. Int -> ST s (STVector s a)' |
| 14:34:45 | <ski> | the first thing that happens is that this polymorphic value gets specialized, by substituting specific types, for the (bound) type variables `s' and `a' |
| 14:35:59 | <ski> | we "know" that `a' will end up being chosen as `Int' (or at least, that's our intent) .. but what about `s' ? |
| 14:36:56 | <Glassy> | what the compiler likes? |
| 14:37:20 | <ski> | the type checker doesn't know, to begin with. so what it does is it uses "placeholders", aka "metavariables". later, we may discover what specific types we actually want to use in place of these. i'll write these placeholders as `_s' and `_a' |
| 14:38:10 | <Glassy> | alright |
| 14:38:20 | <ski> | so, the polymorphic `new' of type `forall s. Int -> ST s (STVector s a)' gets specialized to a *monomorphic* `new' (with the syntax from above, it would be `new @_s @_a') of type `Int -> ST _s (STVector _s _a)' |
| 14:38:56 | <ski> | then this is applied to `2', which must have type `Int'. and the resulting application has type `ST _s (STVector _s _a)' |
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| 14:39:47 | <Glassy> | is this where _a = Int? |
| 14:39:55 | <Glassy> | or is it still a place holder? |
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| 14:40:12 | <ski> | let's say we're currently considering |
| 14:40:20 | <ski> | y :: forall s. ST s (STVector s Int) |
| 14:40:22 | <ski> | y = new 2 |
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| 14:42:06 | <ski> | starting from the other end, that is the signature `y :: forall s. ST s (STVector s Int)', the way to check this is to first generate an instantiation of this type getting rid of the `forall'), and then checking the body (the defining equation) of `y', against this instantiation |
| 14:42:53 | <ski> | so, at this point, we'd check that this instantiation (which i've not yet said how it looks like) agrees with the above inferred type for `new 2' (which was `ST _s (STVector _s _a)') |
| 14:42:59 | <ski> | Glassy : following, so far ? |
| 14:43:02 | <Glassy> | huh |
| 14:43:10 | <Glassy> | so they both are given place holders |
| 14:43:13 | <Glassy> | and the placeholders match up |
| 14:43:20 | <Glassy> | or can match up |
| 14:44:19 | <ski> | .. it might actually be better to start with a different example, say one in which we're *only* inferring (say for a polymorphic operation), with no explicit checking (apart from the checking that the operations and constructions you perform are consistent with each other) |
| 14:46:33 | <Glassy> | actually i think it might help if i come back another time. just because i think i'm jumping too far ahead |
| 14:47:04 | <Glassy> | i've studied first order logic before and maybe could look at the theoretical side of system-f omega or whatever then think about how to actually type check it |
| 14:47:12 | <Glassy> | though thanks for the help :) |
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| 14:47:18 | <Glassy> | just i got to go back to basics i think |
| 14:47:50 | <ski> | ok. i was thinking perhaps we could consider say `totalLength rows = sum (map length rows)', as an example of inferring types |
| 14:49:07 | <Glassy> | umm maybe another time sorry :( just i also got to go outside |
| 14:49:30 | <Glassy> | anyway have a nice day /wave |
| 14:49:38 | ← | Glassy parts (~Glassy@user/glassy) () |
| 14:50:15 | <ski> | "so they both are given place holders","and the placeholders match up" -- almost. the type `forall s. ST s (STVector s Int)' from the signature of `y' above would actually be specialized to something like `ST %s (STVector %s Int)', where `%s' is just a custom notation that i just invented for "skolems" aka "rigid type variables". they're not quite the same as the placeholders `_s',`_a' from before |
| 14:50:21 | <ski> | ok |
| 14:50:34 | <ski> | jacks2 : did it become clear ? |
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| 15:09:57 | <stengah> | :t words |
| 15:09:58 | <lambdabot> | String -> [String] |
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| 15:17:47 | <f-a> | can someone explain to me why RWS is not an instance of MonadThrow? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/exceptions-0.10.4/docs/Control-Monad-Catch.html#t:MonadThrow |
| 15:18:04 | <f-a> | What blocks `Identity` from having its MonadThrow instance? |
| 15:22:52 | <janus> | f-a: IdentityT does have MonadThrow, hmm, dunno what to conclude from that |
| 15:23:19 | <f-a> | yeah that is what puzzled me |
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| 15:24:23 | <hpc> | (IdentityT m) has an instance because m can be MonadThrow |
| 15:24:41 | <hpc> | and then when when throwM with the (IdentityT m) it defers to m's instance |
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| 15:27:26 | <janus> | but since State can be rewritten as StateT Identity, i was thinking maybe IdentityT could be rewritten in a similar way with something like IdentityT Unit, but Unit is not a monad so i guess it makes no sense |
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| 15:29:06 | <jacks2> | is this a valid prime number, even if it isn't very efficient? it looks to me like it is. https://paste.tomsmeding.com/r16Z49gf |
| 15:29:07 | <geekosaur> | Identity *is* the "unit" there |
| 15:29:12 | <jacks2> | prime number checker* |
| 15:30:03 | <f-a> | jacks2: why not checking it with https://hackage.haskell.org/package/primes-0.2.1.0/docs/Data-Numbers-Primes.html |
| 15:30:35 | <jacks2> | it is a homework assignment |
| 15:30:38 | <f-a> | and yup, it is quite slow |
| 15:30:45 | <jacks2> | it is valid, though? |
| 15:31:14 | <ski> | yes |
| 15:31:34 | <f-a> | jacks2: that is why I said «check it with Data.Numbers.Primes». No better way to check your output that against a well know implementation, right? But yeah, it looks fine |
| 15:32:58 | <ski> | `if ... then False else ...' is `not (...) && ...' |
| 15:33:47 | <f-a> | running your assignment through `hlint` will make your tutor happy, too |
| 15:34:30 | <ski> | `hlint' is opinionated |
| 15:35:23 | <Franciman> | tbf 80% of the time i don't like hlint |
| 15:35:33 | <ski> | (it often gives suggestions i don't care for) |
| 15:35:34 | <Franciman> | what hlint |
| 15:35:36 | <Franciman> | says |
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| 15:58:03 | <jacks2> | which one do you prefer? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/KFIHLugK |
| 15:59:01 | <jacks2> | pattern matching for 2 vs everything in guards |
| 15:59:17 | <gaff> | toRational :: Real a => a -> Rational, pi :: Floating a => a, but `toRational pi` works. how is that possible? |
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| 16:02:01 | <c_wraith> | gaff: it works as long as pi is used at a type that is both an instance of Real and an instance of Floating |
| 16:02:23 | <c_wraith> | gaff: if you don't provide it any more information, it will default to Double, which is an instance of both |
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| 16:03:17 | <gaff> | c_wraith: but `pi` already has a type, has it not? |
| 16:03:31 | <c_wraith> | > pi :: Double |
| 16:03:33 | <lambdabot> | 3.141592653589793 |
| 16:03:49 | <c_wraith> | > pi :: Float |
| 16:03:51 | <lambdabot> | 3.1415927 |
| 16:03:58 | <c_wraith> | pi is polymorphic. |
| 16:04:03 | <gaff> | i see |
| 16:04:38 | <gaff> | but this doesn't work: `fromRational pi` |
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| 16:04:53 | <c_wraith> | :t fromRational |
| 16:04:54 | <lambdabot> | Fractional a => Rational -> a |
| 16:05:02 | <gaff> | correct |
| 16:05:10 | <c_wraith> | yes. Rational doesn't have a Floating instance. |
| 16:05:57 | <gaff> | but Rational does have a Fractional instance |
| 16:06:38 | <c_wraith> | pi is only polymorphic over Floating instances. (It's actually part of the Floating class) |
| 16:06:48 | <gaff> | ok |
| 16:07:38 | <gaff> | and Floating is a subclass of Fractional |
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| 16:08:36 | <gaff> | `fromRational` is in `Fractional` class |
| 16:09:25 | <c_wraith> | that means all instance of Floating must also be instances of Fractional. Not the other way around. |
| 16:09:27 | <janus> | hmm i am bit bummed that pi isn't infinite precision now that it is so polymorphic |
| 16:09:34 | <janus> | @src pi |
| 16:09:34 | <lambdabot> | Source not found. BOB says: You seem to have forgotten your passwd, enter another! |
| 16:10:37 | <hpc> | it's as precise as the type you use it with |
| 16:10:41 | <hpc> | > pi :: CReal |
| 16:10:43 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 16:10:43 | <lambdabot> | Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘CReal’ |
| 16:10:43 | <lambdabot> | Perhaps you meant ‘Real’ (imported from Prelude) |
| 16:10:52 | <hpc> | :( i thought that was imported |
| 16:11:27 | <gaff> | c_wraith: shouldn't all instances of Floating implement the `fromRational` ethod? |
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| 16:11:53 | <gaff> | sorry, i mean "method" |
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| 16:12:43 | <gaff> | i suppose `pi` is just a value defined in Flaoting |
| 16:12:47 | <c_wraith> | fromRational is polymorphic in the return type |
| 16:12:48 | <gaff> | Floating |
| 16:12:56 | <c_wraith> | not in the argument type |
| 16:13:00 | <gaff> | yeah, correct |
| 16:13:19 | <c_wraith> | So fromRational can return a value of any type that pi can be |
| 16:13:41 | <c_wraith> | but its input must always be Rational |
| 16:13:45 | <janus> | % :set -XDataKinds |
| 16:13:45 | <yahb> | janus: |
| 16:13:46 | <gaff> | correct |
| 16:13:53 | <janus> | % :m +Data.Fixed |
| 16:13:53 | <yahb> | janus: |
| 16:14:14 | <janus> | % realToFrac pi :: Fixed 1000 -- i had hoped this would give me the precision of the type |
| 16:14:14 | <yahb> | janus: 3.141 |
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| 16:14:57 | <gaff> | and `pi` is not Rational ... but here is the question: pi isn't Fractional either? |
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| 16:17:06 | <janus> | why shouldn't it be Fractional? it supports real division |
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| 16:21:17 | <gaff> | so pi is Fractional as well, because Floating is a subclass of Fractional? |
| 16:22:14 | <gaff> | janus: is that what your argument is? |
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| 16:23:15 | <janus> | gaff: my problem is that by putting 'pi' in 'Floating', i think you can't have a way that it would work for e.g. "KnownNat n => Fixed n" |
| 16:23:45 | <janus> | so in effect the name has been taken by a class that can't even faithfully represent the entity :P |
| 16:23:46 | <gaff> | janus: ok, i ma talking about something else, i think |
| 16:25:19 | <gaff> | c_wraith: something like `fromRational 8.6756` works just fine, because unlike pi, 8.6756 can be represented as a Rational? |
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| 16:26:19 | <c_wraith> | it's not about representation |
| 16:26:23 | <janus> | % fromRational 1.5 :: Fixed E0 -- it will throw away precision though... |
| 16:26:23 | <yahb> | janus: 1.0 |
| 16:26:51 | <c_wraith> | It's just that numeric literals are more polymorphic than pi is |
| 16:27:04 | <c_wraith> | :t 8.6756 |
| 16:27:05 | <lambdabot> | Fractional p => p |
| 16:27:17 | <c_wraith> | Rational is an instance of Fractional |
| 16:27:22 | <c_wraith> | :t pi |
| 16:27:23 | <lambdabot> | Floating a => a |
| 16:27:23 | <gaff> | c_wraith: correct, i forgot about that! |
| 16:27:28 | <c_wraith> | Rational is not an instance of Floating |
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| 16:27:46 | <gaff> | ok, now i understand |
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| 16:28:40 | <gaff> | c_wraith: thanks much |
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| 16:43:59 | <gaff> | c_wraith: one followup question -- Floating is a subclass of Fractional, which has the `fromRational` method. shouldn't all `Floating` instances implement `fromRational`? |
| 16:44:47 | <c_wraith> | yes - but remember the polymorphic side of fromRational is the return value, not the argument |
| 16:45:12 | <c_wraith> | :t \x -> fromRational x `asTypeOf` pi |
| 16:45:13 | <lambdabot> | Floating a => Rational -> a |
| 16:46:21 | <c_wraith> | fromRational can return any type that pi can be. |
| 16:46:33 | <gaff> | ok |
| 16:47:16 | <gaff> | ah i see |
| 16:48:26 | <gaff> | but its argument has to be Rational (not polymorphic), so pi is out of the picture |
| 16:49:25 | <c_wraith> | yes |
| 16:50:08 | <gaff> | quite tricky to underatnd at first, but now i see. thanks much |
| 16:51:17 | <gaff> | c_wraith: also the class heirarchy names are not so obvious, at least at first glance. |
| 16:51:32 | <c_wraith> | The names make no sense to me at all. I try not to think about them. :) |
| 16:51:38 | <gaff> | i mean the number classes |
| 16:51:43 | <c_wraith> | Yeah |
| 16:52:02 | <c_wraith> | Floating, Real, RealFrac... I couldn't tell you what any of those are, specifically. |
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| 16:52:17 | <c_wraith> | until I look at the docs, anyway |
| 16:52:25 | <gaff> | yeah |
| 16:52:52 | <c_wraith> | Fortunately, those details aren't important most of the time. |
| 16:53:08 | <gaff> | i suppose they prefixed `Real` to denote real numbers, as opposed to complex numbers. that's all i can say |
| 16:54:11 | <gaff> | and `Real` is subdivided into integers and fractions, so that's where you get RealFrac, i suppose |
| 16:54:28 | <gaff> | :) |
| 16:54:30 | <c_wraith> | I rarely write code that deals with non-integral values, and when I do I can almost always get away with only using Double or Rational |
| 16:54:40 | <gaff> | yeah |
| 16:55:07 | <gaff> | thanks much for your help |
| 16:55:17 | <c_wraith> | you're welcome |
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| 19:00:18 | <remexre> | is there a good way to benchmark GHC? I've got a not-terribly-large grammar I'm giving to Happy, and it's taking over 5 minutes to compile the resulting .hs file, and I'm not sure why |
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| 19:02:26 | <remexre> | er, benchmark's probably the wrong word; profile? |
| 19:04:36 | <geekosaur> | -ddump-timings might be of interest. otherwise you'd need a ghc built profiled, which is uncommon and probably would require you to build from source |
| 19:05:41 | <geekosaur> | (build ghc itself, that is) |
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| 19:07:38 | <remexre> | okay, thanks; it's already hanging on Renamer/typechecker with that, so I think I've found my cuprit :) |
| 19:07:43 | <remexre> | culprit* |
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| 19:11:23 | <geekosaur> | also if it's really a small grammar, the ghc issue tracker might want a reproducible example :) |
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| 19:13:00 | <remexre> | 124 lines of grammar, ~100 lines of helper functions |
| 19:13:34 | <remexre> | and adding top-level type signatures doesn't help :( |
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| 19:14:15 | <remexre> | well, helps a bit looks like, 157800ms -> 56852.393ms |
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| 19:15:13 | <remexre> | but that's will all non-parameterized nts getting one |
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| 19:18:56 | <remexre> | https://git.sr.ht/~remexre/sylvan/tree/main/item/bootstrap/Language/Sylvan/Parser.y is the parser if you want to take a look |
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| 19:19:33 | <jacks2> | @hoogle Int -> Integer |
| 19:19:34 | <lambdabot> | Test.DejaFu.SCT.Internal toId :: Coercible Id a => Int -> a |
| 19:19:34 | <lambdabot> | Prelude toInteger :: Integral a => a -> Integer |
| 19:19:34 | <lambdabot> | GHC.Real toInteger :: Integral a => a -> Integer |
| 19:19:55 | <jacks2> | odd.. Variable not in scope: toInteger' |
| 19:20:08 | <remexre> | ' ? |
| 19:22:46 | <geekosaur> | yeh, that prime looks suspicious |
| 19:22:59 | <jacks2> | geekosaur, mine? why? |
| 19:23:27 | <geekosaur> | it's just toInteger, no prime |
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| 19:25:09 | <jacks2> | ok.. that is obvious :P. I asked about isPrime function several hours ago, so I'm still confused what you're talking about |
| 19:25:19 | <remexre> | prime being the ' mark |
| 19:25:27 | <geekosaur> | yeh, math terminology |
| 19:25:30 | <remexre> | toInteger =/= toInteger' |
| 19:25:37 | <geekosaur> | > let x' = 5 in x' |
| 19:25:39 | <lambdabot> | 5 |
| 19:25:47 | <jacks2> | oh, god damn |
| 19:25:49 | <geekosaur> | pronounced "eks prime" |
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| 20:30:51 | <jacks2> | remind me please, how to wrap some value, say Int, in a haskell type without boxing the value? so extracting it and doing caclulations should be as fast as if I used plain Int64 |
| 20:31:37 | <Hecate> | jacks2: `newtype` + UNPACK + StrictData ? |
| 20:32:17 | <jacks2> | is that good enough to avoid any performance hit? |
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| 20:32:31 | <jacks2> | I'd rather lose type safety if that is the case |
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| 20:32:59 | <Hecate> | then a type alias :P |
| 20:33:22 | <geekosaur> | you can also enable MagicHash and work with Int# |
| 20:33:36 | <jacks2> | I need 64 bit int |
| 20:33:58 | <geekosaur> | that will be 64 bit on a 64 bit platform, but if you must be certain there is also Int64# |
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| 20:34:12 | <Hecate> | yup' |
| 20:34:14 | <jacks2> | ah ok |
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| 20:41:36 | <liskin> | uh, I thought newtype is transparent at runtime, so newtype X = X Int should be equivalent in performance to Int; has anything changed while I wasn't looking? |
| 20:43:29 | <geekosaur> | it is mostly transparent. there are some edge cases where it can't be removed fully; that's why Coercible exists |
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| 20:45:07 | <geekosaur> | you can read the Coercible paper for details. (that said, I'd be really surprised if they came up here) |
| 20:46:29 | <hpc> | there's also the general rule for performance that you write the simple thing until you can prove it's a problem |
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| 20:48:17 | <geekosaur> | yes, that's also true. in most cases ghc should be able to prove strictness and that it can unbox things itself |
| 20:48:39 | <geekosaur> | so the fancy unboxed code is just doing by hand what ghc would do for you anyway |
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| 20:51:25 | <liskin> | oh, right, so the gist of it is that one might want to use coerce instead of higher-order functions like fmap and stuff as that might not always be optimised away |
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| 21:32:09 | <f-a> | I forgot, how do I tell cabal to rebuild when needed when running — say — `cabal build program --enable-profiling`? |
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| 21:33:26 | <f-a> | as now I get many `Perhaps you haven't installed the profiling libraries for package ‘file-embed-0.0.12.0’?` errors and I do not know how to address them |
| 21:34:04 | <geekosaur> | hm, it should figure that out for itself normally |
| 21:34:44 | <f-a> | unfortunately I had to install ghc from apt-get (Debian), as recent ghcs segfault on my machine; that might be it |
| 21:35:18 | <geekosaur> | any packages you installed via apt/dpkg you will need to separately install the profiling packages for |
| 21:36:00 | <geekosaur> | on my ubuntu system it looks like libghc-file-embed-prof is what you need |
| 21:36:37 | <f-a> | makes sense |
| 21:36:43 | <f-a> | thanks |
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| 21:44:52 | <jacks2> | is there deleteAll? |
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| 21:45:34 | <geekosaur> | in what context? |
| 21:45:51 | <jacks2> | same as delete, but instead of just one it deletes all matching elements |
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| 21:45:58 | <jacks2> | oh, that is filter! |
| 21:46:00 | <jacks2> | :P |
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| 22:30:56 | <Inst> | question |
| 22:31:01 | <Inst> | why is PYPL claiming that Haskell |
| 22:31:03 | <Inst> | jumped a cliff |
| 22:31:15 | <monochrom> | What is PYPL? |
| 22:31:44 | <geekosaur> | and why should we care about its? their? opinion? |
| 22:31:45 | <mestre> | people that use python |
| 22:31:51 | <Inst> | https://pypl.github.io/PYPL.html |
| 22:32:08 | <Inst> | Haskell dropped from 0.2% of new language learners to 0.0% |
| 22:32:09 | <monochrom> | And why should we know? Why not ask the author? |
| 22:32:34 | <mestre> | abap going storng |
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| 22:33:42 | <geekosaur> | also we seem to be getting the same number of new learners around here as usual, so I question 0.0% |
| 22:33:45 | <monochrom> | And to be clear, if someone writes "I have been productive in Haskell", we wouldn't know why either, only the author knows. No? |
| 22:34:13 | <monochrom> | I know why I am productive in Haskell, but I can't know about someone else. |
| 22:34:59 | <hololeap> | \(a, T m) -> let (b,m') = f (a,m) in (b, T m') |
| 22:35:08 | <monochrom> | Hell, I probably don't even quite know why I'm productive in Haskell. |
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| 22:35:35 | <hololeap> | if I have a lens that unwraps T, how can I use it here? |
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| 22:38:37 | <c_wraith> | hololeap: I think you want alongside |
| 22:39:40 | <hololeap> | oh, interesting |
| 22:40:03 | <c_wraith> | you can use id for the other component |
| 22:40:33 | <Inst> | eh, it's a search analytics methodology |
| 22:40:38 | <hololeap> | that's going to be very helpful, because I'm using optics (package) and I've been looking for more ways to combine optics, especially over tuples |
| 22:40:40 | <Inst> | do you know when Haskell 20 / Haskell 2.0 is coming out? |
| 22:40:55 | <awpr> | assuming it's an Iso, it seems like a relevant profunctor to use with that optic might be `newtype Second a b p c d = Second (p (a, c) (b, d))` |
| 22:41:01 | <hpc> | haskell 2.0 is looooooooong in the past |
| 22:41:23 | <hpc> | if it can really be called that |
| 22:41:24 | <awpr> | with the right wrapping and unwrapping, I think that would lift the Iso to work on the right element of a tuple |
| 22:41:40 | <awpr> | hpc: yeah we're at least 2008 versions past that |
| 22:41:56 | <hpc> | we still need to catch up with python 3000 though |
| 22:42:11 | <awpr> | only need 979 years |
| 22:42:24 | <hpc> | we'll be on firefox 3000 by then too |
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| 22:42:37 | <d34df00d> | Hi folks! |
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| 22:42:55 | <Inst> | I heard a rumor that a major new release of the Haskell Report was supposed to have been in the pipeline? |
| 22:43:06 | <Inst> | TBH, the irony is, I want to use Haskell for the same reason other people use Python; i.e, ease of use. |
| 22:43:21 | <d34df00d> | Did anybody use nvim-hs? I'm trying to display some debugging output from my plugin written in haskell, and I fail at that. |
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| 22:43:45 | <hpc> | python's "ease of use" is the biggest secret success story of distro packaging ever |
| 22:44:09 | <hpc> | i once tried to get a different version of python on ubuntu and after many hours ended up with something that could run the repl but not pip install |
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| 22:46:19 | <arahael> | hpc: i used to be a python fan but after working with it in the enterprise for a while... nup, its awful. |
| 22:46:33 | <arahael> | hpc: however, for your use case, look at pyenv. |
| 22:46:36 | <hpc> | pypi is also missing so much basic stuff |
| 22:46:44 | <Inst> | i mean python is for private use; i.e, it's not really designed for production environments |
| 22:46:45 | <jacks2> | > map (length &&& id &&& map toUpper) ["foo", "bar", "baz"] |
| 22:46:46 | <lambdabot> | [(3,("foo","FOO")),(3,("bar","BAR")),(3,("baz","BAZ"))] |
| 22:46:47 | <hpc> | i can go to hackage and see what things a package depends on, with version numbers |
| 22:46:51 | <hpc> | click a module to get documentation |
| 22:47:03 | <jacks2> | how can I get [(Int, String, String)] instead of [(Int, (String, String)]? |
| 22:47:04 | <int-e> | Python's Implementation of Pain |
| 22:47:05 | <hpc> | on pypi i have to download the whole damn package and read source code to figure out the same thing |
| 22:47:11 | <hpc> | and if you're lucky, the docs are googleable |
| 22:47:14 | <int-e> | (=pip) |
| 22:47:26 | <arahael> | hpc: nevermind pypi, pip is missing a lot, and with bonus exploitability by hackers. |
| 22:48:26 | <Inst> | when was the last time someone did a major production project with haskell, anyways? |
| 22:48:27 | <arahael> | jacks2: i'd probably keep it simple and just "map (\(a, (b, c)) -> (a, b, c)" |
| 22:49:46 | <jacks2> | well yeah, I can just do |
| 22:49:48 | <ski> | > map ((\(n,(s0,s1)) -> (n,s0,s1)) . (length &&& id &&& map toUpper)) ["foo","bar","baz"] |
| 22:49:50 | <lambdabot> | [(3,"foo","FOO"),(3,"bar","BAR"),(3,"baz","BAZ")] |
| 22:49:50 | <jacks2> | > map (\x -> (length x, x, map toUpper x)) ["foo", "bar", "baz"] |
| 22:49:52 | <lambdabot> | [(3,"foo","FOO"),(3,"bar","BAR"),(3,"baz","BAZ")] |
| 22:50:01 | <jacks2> | but I was hoping there's a nifty arrow operator that does this, like *** |
| 22:50:27 | <arahael> | jacks2: then i wouldnt understand your code! |
| 22:50:57 | <hpc> | Inst: https://simulavr.com/ |
| 22:51:01 | <ski> | what're you doing with the triples ? |
| 22:52:22 | <Inst> | thanks |
| 22:52:23 | <jacks2> | making two way map out of it |
| 22:52:41 | <jacks2> | I'll just use lambda, no big deal |
| 22:52:49 | <ski> | `Map Int (Map String String)' ? |
| 22:53:20 | <jacks2> | no, types were made up for the question purpose |
| 22:53:34 | <ski> | what do you mean by "two way map" ? |
| 22:53:52 | <jacks2> | I'll try to make a short test case in a few minutes |
| 22:53:53 | <hololeap> | this is what I'm trying to do: http://sprunge.us/wqrAZF -- the constructors have lenses through OverloadedLabels and Optics.Label and I'm wondering how I can do this with optics combinators |
| 22:54:21 | <jacks2> | as far as my original question goes, I'm pretty sure I did this with arrows before though. or maybe I just did a pair? |
| 22:54:23 | <jacks2> | ie: |
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| 22:54:44 | <jacks2> | > map (length &&& id) ["fooo", "bar"] |
| 22:54:45 | <lambdabot> | [(4,"fooo"),(3,"bar")] |
| 22:56:16 | <ski> | i tend to call `(id &&&)', `graph' (and `(||| id)', `cograph') |
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| 23:28:45 | <ManofLetters[m]> | arahael: hi! I tried to message you (from Matrix), but it says you are blocking the messages |
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| 23:29:12 | <ManofLetters[m]> | was it you kindly interested in LambdaHack yesterday? I left some backlog, but not sure if it reached you |
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| 23:41:16 | <jacks2> | what should I use for fixed length list/array? |
| 23:41:46 | <jacks2> | I only have a few elements, so efficiency shouldn't matter, but I want compile-time guarantee that there are only n-elements |
| 23:42:19 | <geekosaur> | Array probably |
| 23:42:34 | <jacks2> | hmm, or maybe just (a, a, a, a) ? |
| 23:42:37 | <arahael> | ManofLetters[m]: thanks :) i do block dm's from unregistered users. i was curious but not hugely so, it might be more for sm? |
| 23:42:48 | <arahael> | ManofLetters[m]: as in, the user known as "sm" :) |
| 23:42:53 | <jacks2> | or data FourList = FourList a a a a |
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| 23:43:23 | <awpr> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/short-vec jacks2, if you're comfortable with there being DataKinds involved for the length |
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| 23:43:47 | <awpr> | although if it's _always_ four and that's the only length you need, that `FourList` is good too |
| 23:43:58 | <ManofLetters[m]> | arahael: oh yes, we chat with sm a lot :) |
| 23:44:11 | <ManofLetters[m]> | arahael: could I ask you a favour? |
| 23:44:27 | <arahael> | ManofLetters[m]: i am just about to duck out... maybe later tonight? |
| 23:44:43 | <ManofLetters[m]> | sure, np, later |
| 23:44:45 | <arahael> | (10:45 am here) |
| 23:44:50 | <arahael> | laters! |
| 23:44:55 | <ManofLetters[m]> | 1:45am here :) |
| 23:45:01 | <arahael> | ha. sleep well! |
| 23:45:16 | <ManofLetters[m]> | have a good day! |
| 23:46:05 | <ManofLetters[m]> | BTW, does anybody know in what sense I'm unregistered? IRC-unregistered or Matrix-unregistered? |
| 23:46:27 | <arahael> | ManofLetters[m]: thanks. and fyi, it's irc-unregistered. |
| 23:46:28 | <ManofLetters[m]> | (this causes me to be unable to message some people) |
| 23:46:34 | <ManofLetters[m]> | oh, ok, fine |
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| 23:52:54 | <arahael> | ManofLetters[m]: also, i deliberately block unregistered users. due to spam. |
| 23:53:03 | arahael | is on his walk now! laters. |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-10-16.