Logs on 2021-10-25 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:00:31	<AWizzArd>	c_wraith: always surprising how difficult strings can be :)
00:00:37	<Axman6>	you I've thought about that problem a lot, and using succinct structures you can got away with something like less than 1% overhead
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00:01:12	<c_wraith>	My solution is to either write a full text editor or not edit text.
00:01:20	<c_wraith>	there is no in-between that works well
00:04:16	<AWizzArd>	yeah
00:09:38	<pavonia>	Axman6: How would such a stucture look like?
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00:35:14	<D4v1d>	Hello I am trying to install glirc but I encountered the error as shown in https://paste.tomsmeding.com/zsunUhIt ; however I already have openssl installed via homebrew and has linked them. Would you please help? Thank you.
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00:39:06	<geekosaur>	ghoulguy, ^^ thta looks a rather custom error message, presumably you know what else it might be doing?
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00:44:38	<D4v1d>	He may be busy 'cause he is a staffer
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00:49:08	<awpr>	liskin: actually I think this is likely to be it; I do have caching of the Hackage index but no explicit update step. will try right now
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01:12:03	<Axman6>	pavonia: take a look at rank/sleect operations over succinct structures - I couldn't find a good liunk in 2 mins of googling but I might come back to it
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01:17:23	<awpr>	no luck, Stack thinks there are no updates available
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02:13:22	<D4v1d>	My issue has been solved! I solved it by building OpenSSL from the canonical master branch instead of using Homebrew and the error message disappears!
02:13:55	<D4v1d>	*The HSOpenSSL build error disappeared
02:16:56	<kronicmage>	does anyone know if there's a 4 bit word/int type?
02:17:06	<kronicmage>	trying to limit inputs to a single base 16 digit
02:18:36	<ski>	<https://hackage.haskell.org/package/leancheck-0.9.10/docs/Test-LeanCheck-Utils-Types.html#t:Int4>,<https://hackage.haskell.org/package/leancheck-0.9.10/docs/Test-LeanCheck-Utils-Types.html#t:Word4> apparently
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02:29:49	<jophish>	<kronicmage> "does anyone know if there's a..." <- Also, `Unsigned 4` (or `Signed 4`) from `clash-prelude`
02:32:06	<jophish>	Or https://hackage.haskell.org/package/finite-typelits-0.1.4.2/docs/Data-Finite.html#t:Finite
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02:32:36	<awpr>	also https://hackage.haskell.org/package/fin-int along the same lines, you could do `Fin 16`
02:32:50	<awpr>	(and it's an `Int` rather than `Integer` under the hood)
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02:45:41	<awpr>	liskin: you were right after all, I just had to make sure the `stack update` was before the `stack setup`, because apparently the latter chooses all the deps and writes a `stack.yaml.lock`, so by having them in the wrong order, it chose the stale .cabal file before the update downloaded it. thanks!
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04:20:43	<dsal>	Ick, looks like an attoparsec upgrade is coming and breaks a library I depend on.
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04:38:41	<Axman6>	what's changed in it?
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04:57:03	<dsal>	I'm not entirely sure. It broke websockets and I've got a library that depends on that.
04:57:19	<dsal>	I should figure out how to make my library not depend on websockets, but use it if you want it. That sounds complicated.
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06:05:23	<kronicmage>	is there any way to set over two lens setters at once? something like `set (_1 && _2) 5 (undefined, undefined)` to get `(5, 5)`
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06:11:41	<Axman6>	% set (_1 <> _2) (undefined, undefined) 5 -- I don't think this will work, but works for getters/traversals
06:11:42	<yahb>	Axman6: ; <interactive>:142:1: error:; * Could not deduce (Field1 s0 t a0 (a1, b)); from the context: (Semigroup t, Field1 s t a (a1, b), Field2 s t a (a1, b), Num s); bound by the inferred type for `it':; forall {t} {s} {a} {a1} {b}. (Semigroup t, Field1 s t a (a1, b), Field2 s t a (a1, b), Num s) => t; at <interactive>:142:1-39; The type variables `s0', `a0' a
06:12:02	<Axman6>	% set (_1 <> _2) 5 (undefined, undefined)
06:12:02	<yahb>	Axman6: ; <interactive>:143:1: error:; * Ambiguous type variable `b0' arising from a use of `print'; prevents the constraint `(Show b0)' from being solved.; Probable fix: use a type annotation to specify what `b0' should be.; These potential instances exist:; instance Show a => Show (ZipList a) -- Defined in `Control.Applicative'; instance Show NestedAtomically -- Defined in
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06:12:31	<Axman6>	% set (_1 <> _2) 5 (True, False) :: (Int,Int)
06:12:31	<yahb>	Axman6: ; <interactive>:144:6: error:; * Couldn't match type `Int' with `Bool'; arising from a functional dependency between:; constraint `Field1 (Bool, Bool) (Int, Int) Bool Int' arising from a use of `_1'; instance Field1 (a, b) (a', b) a a' at <no location info>; * In the first argument of `(<>)', namely `_1'; In the first argument of `set', namely `(_1 <> _2)';
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06:39:26	<jackdk>	Conduit question: I have a ConduitT () ByteString m r representing a large file, and I want to process it in chunks, where each chunk is between some minimum and maximum (constant) number of bytes. I feel like I would want to write a function like `chunksBetween :: Monad m => Integer -> Integer -> ConduitT i ByteString m r -> ConduitT i (ConduitT i ByteString m ()) m r` that streams smoothly from the input conduit.
06:39:31	<jackdk>	Axman6: ;-)
06:40:41	<jackdk>	Pipes appears to have this operator as in pipes-group, as some kind of crazy lens that lets you look at it as a FreeT or something, and I can't make heads or tails of it
06:41:07	<jackdk>	Streaming should give you a Stream (Of (Stream (Of o))) ...
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06:41:49	<Axman6>	yeah that pretty much sums up my question, ta :P
06:42:45	<jackdk>	It would be sufficient to ignore i; I'm happy to work over `ConduitT () ByteString m ()`
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06:48:44	<Axman6>	streaming does it in a slight weird way, where it has splitAt :: Monad m => Int64 -> ByteStream m r -> ByteStream m (ByteStream m r) (where ByteStream is basically Stream (Of ByteString) m r)
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06:59:13	<janus34>	Been studying haskell the last couple of weekends and yesterday I thought: "How do you print from a haskell program?"
07:00:27	<janus34>	So a quick search showed that printing is popular and most of it is pretty! : ) After filtering out all the pretty-printers the search came up with ... nothing.
07:01:35	<janus34>	I can come up with some ways to create files that would print pretty, but how do you print to a printer from haskell?
07:01:57	<jackdk>	Axman6: I think you need to seal the conduit and the use Data.Conduit.List.unconsM but that's as far as I've managed
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07:13:19	<Axman6>	jackdk: I don't know hwo to print to a printer in any language - personally I would generate HTML or a PDF and then use my OS. There's probably ways to use postscript... but that sounds like not a lot of fun. this is not a simple problem IMO
07:13:30	<Axman6>	uh, janus34
07:13:33	<jackdk>	I think you mean the other `ja<tab>`
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07:13:51	<Axman6>	`j<tab>`, because I'm a monster, but yeah
07:17:25	<janus34>	I have done PostScript in the past and that is one of the ways I was thinking about. I think I was mostly surprised that a search for it turned up nothing.
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07:19:54	<jackdk>	Axman6: the other problem is that we want to pass a `ConduitT () ByteString (ResourceT IO) ()` into `chunkedBody`
07:20:50	<janus34>	People are doing financial backend stuff, so I would have expected invoices or inventory or something. It was just a thought, not a need.
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07:23:48	<lortabac>	janus34: I guess most people delegate printing to the operating system or the browser
07:24:37	<lortabac>	it's something you generally try to avoid because of all the details that are hard to get right and the differences between OS's
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07:28:26	<janus34>	Yes and with pandoc you can convert them to multiple other formats. Thank you and I think I will pop in here some more in the future.
07:29:31	<lortabac>	janus34: the only time I really needed to print directly from an application I used QZTray, which gives you a simple API you can call from your browser
07:30:10	<lortabac>	but it was a very specific use case, most of the time you can just let users download the PS/PDF and print it themselves
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07:39:32	<janus34>	lortabac: I can see how that will be useful. Conclusion: Generate something printable and delegate.
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08:15:22	<merijn>	English question: "converges on" or "converges to"?
08:16:31	<zincy>	I like "converges to".
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08:20:44	<zincy>	For building a turn based card game I can't choose between Machines or Streamly to implement the Mealy machines for game state
08:20:50	<zincy>	I am a bit lost in this design space.
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08:21:40	<zincy>	What is the overlap between Machines and libraries like Streamly/Conduit/Pipes?
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08:34:53	<tomsmeding>	merijn: in maths it's "converges to"
08:35:03	<tomsmeding>	not sure how mathy your sentence is
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10:01:18	<liskin>	awpr: glad to hear that :-)
10:02:41	<kuribas>	Once again, haskell tooling is driving me completely crazy.
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10:03:04	<kuribas>	"eff is not a visible construtor field name"
10:03:08	<kuribas>	Yes in fact it is.
10:03:33	<kuribas>	and running with stack gives me other errors.
10:03:34	bens_	is now known as bens
10:04:16	<kuribas>	But emacs flycheck (which also runs stack) gives another (wrong) error.
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10:07:42	<jneira[m]>	the first error is thrown by cabal?
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10:09:04	<kuribas>	nope, both stack.
10:09:25	<kuribas>	maybe solving the errors on the other modules first will help this.
10:09:48	<jneira[m]>	so the error is shown in editor using lsp and hls?
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10:11:01	<kuribas>	nah, this is flycheck-emacs
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10:12:03	<jneira[m]>	hmm hls has problems with stack and exe/test components if the main lib does not build
10:12:27	<jneira[m]>	due to known `stack repl` limitations, so maybe it is affecting you too
10:12:45	<jneira[m]>	in the hls case make the lib build and restarting the editor helps
10:13:07	<xsperry>	what stack repl limitations?
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10:14:28	<jneira[m]>	mainly https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack/issues/4616
10:14:49	<jneira[m]>	but also https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack/issues/5380
10:15:08	<kuribas>	jneira[m]: this is all in the lib.
10:15:33	<jneira[m]>	oh, so it might be not the same issue, sorry
10:15:58	<kuribas>	maybe it has to do with how the modules are loaded.
10:16:12	<kuribas>	Because the relevant records are generated using TH.
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11:41:28	<maerwald>	why are you usint stack again?
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14:16:54	<AWizzArd>	I have a function `foo :: Text -> Either String Bool` and `bar` which has the same sig but `Double` instead of `Bool`. Now I would like to put both into a `Typeable a => Map Text (Either Text a)`. How can I do this?
14:16:58	<AWizzArd>	I.e. let myMap = M.fromList [("foo", foo), ("bar", bar)]
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14:18:59	<merijn>	You can't, the Typeable constraint on Map doesn't change that all values should have the same 'a'
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14:19:23	<merijn>	You could use a newtype wrapper with an existential quantification, but that's a mess
14:19:47	<AWizzArd>	When I make foo and bar return `... -> Either String Dynamic` then I can get this running. It would change the implementation of foo and bar, as they would have to make a toDyn call.
14:20:03	<merijn>	Yes
14:21:54	<AWizzArd>	merijn: why would that existential q around a newtype wrapper be messy?
14:22:06	<merijn>	AWizzArd: I mean, Dynamic is an existential wrapper
14:22:32	<merijn>	So, it's messy for the same reason that "modifying everything to wrap/unwrap is messy"
14:22:42	<AWizzArd>	k
14:22:44	<lortabac>	I would only choose the existential solution if I wanted an extensible solution
14:22:54	<AWizzArd>	lortabac: exactly
14:23:02	<lortabac>	that is, if I am making a library
14:23:11	<AWizzArd>	lortabac: yes, this is my usecase.
14:23:39	<lortabac>	however if users of foo and bar have access to the source code, a plain sum type is better
14:24:05	<AWizzArd>	My initial thought tho was that foo and bar could just stay as they are, without a toDyn call.
14:24:33	<AWizzArd>	lortabac: here definitly no sum type as there are infinitely many solutions. I seriously want dynamic typing here.
14:27:44	<lortabac>	depending on what you need to do with these values, you might use Data.Dynamic or introduce a type-class and require users to define an instance
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14:44:48	<AWizzArd>	Can I combine the import of specific names and make that module qualified? I.e. import Data.Map.Strict (Map, fromList) qualified as M
14:45:29	<AWizzArd>	(putting `qualified` at the end, cause this now works from 8.10 on or so)
14:45:39	<merijn>	Sadly, no
14:45:48	<merijn>	You need two separate imports
14:46:04	<merijn>	I would also recommend against postfix qualified, tbh
14:46:15	<AWizzArd>	merijn: okay, will continue doing two. Thanks for confirming.
14:46:15	<sshine>	#tosoon?
14:46:23	<merijn>	It's a bad extension, imo
14:46:30	<AWizzArd>	merijn: why?
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14:46:52	<merijn>	AWizzArd: It does nothing, essentially
14:46:59	<geekosaur>	encourages sloppiness
14:47:18	<merijn>	Would Haskell have been nicer if the import syntax had been more elegantly designed (for example with postfix qualified?)? Yes
14:47:36	<sshine>	I guess it makes the library names align because half of them don't have 'qualified' in front of them.
14:47:48	<merijn>	However, gratuitous "custom syntax" extensions with no gain in expressivity just fracture the "real syntax" anyone has to learn for no gain in power
14:47:57	<geekosaur>	and at this point all it accomplishes is to force a limit on the number of ghc versions you can support
14:48:15	<merijn>	Various syntactic sugar extensions have a real cost
14:48:18	<merijn>	In terms of maintenance
14:48:22	<sshine>	merijn, I agree with that. I remember when someone lent me a scala book, and I realized I need to lift weights to hold the book, just because of the syntactic variation.
14:48:26	<merijn>	In terms of making Haskell harder to learn for beginners
14:48:36	<merijn>	In terms of making people memorise a billion syntax tweaks
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14:48:51	<AWizzArd>	merijn: haha, a billion :)
14:49:07	<merijn>	A consistent, unchanging (albeit slightly clunky/awkward) syntax is better than infinite optional variations
14:49:47	<merijn>	Any syntactical extension should really provide. A considerable gain in expressivity/power to be worth it.
14:49:53	<geekosaur>	AWizzArd, there are quite a few redundant syntaxes even in basic Haskell 98, to say nothing of some of the extensions
14:50:14	<merijn>	This is also why I think RecordDotSyntax, etc. are a mess
14:50:22	<shapr>	I think rarely used extensions need to be deprecated, even if they're really cool.
14:50:24	<geekosaur>	there are people who dislike view patterns because they don't really get you anything, for exanple
14:50:32	<merijn>	They do nothing, but make things worth
14:50:46	<merijn>	geekosaur: And trivially replaceable with pattern guards
14:51:05	<merijn>	shapr: Yeah, but who gets to decide that?
14:51:11	<shapr>	merijn: I'll do it!
14:51:15	<merijn>	Especially since the odds of a new Haskell Report are unlikely
14:51:24	<shapr>	first I shall vote TransformListComp off the island
14:51:30	<merijn>	So any random syntactical extension is likely to just hang around indefinitely
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14:51:56	<merijn>	I vote for -XNoFieldSelectors -XNamedFieldPuns to become the default Haskell behaviour
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15:05:50	<shapr>	merijn: we can make a Haskell IRC Report 2021 and just go with it.
15:06:09	<shapr>	like an RFC or whatever
15:06:25	<geekosaur>	not sure fragmenting the language even more is a win either
15:06:26	<shapr>	"We have found these extensions work well together, and these others are inoffensive, and these are never used, so don't use 'em"
15:06:39	<geekosaur>	we already have ghc2021
15:06:44	<shapr>	oh really?
15:06:46	shapr	searches
15:06:56	<geekosaur>	it's in 9.2
15:06:56	<sshine>	Haskell 1459 Report
15:07:18	<shapr>	oh, it's this one? https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/blob/master/proposals/0380-ghc2021.rst
15:08:15	<shapr>	geekosaur: as long as someone's doing it
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15:11:26	<sshine>	what's that extension for allowing 1.3e4 for integers as long as it's actually an integer?
15:11:56	<merijn>	NumDecimals
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15:12:07	<geekosaur>	https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/exts/num_decimals.html
15:13:03	<sshine>	thanks
15:13:32	<dminuoso>	Im onto a real strange thing here. It seems diffBy in Diff has some fundamental bug.. I get this bizarre behavior of two items being equal in the predicate being listed as both First and Second. If I filter the input lists to singleton lists containing the offending items, I get a Both..
15:13:38	dminuoso	is starting to get headaches
15:14:03	<dminuoso>	Maybe I violated some precondition?
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15:42:08	<dminuoso>	Yeah, I pretty much confirmed it now.
15:42:17	<dminuoso>	Diff seems to have a fundamental bug.
15:42:22	<dminuoso>	Uh this hurts.
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15:51:22	<kritzefitz>	is there a version of `traverse` for `Alternative` that ignores `empty` results in the result?
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15:51:35	<janus>	which diff package is that?
15:51:39	<dminuoso>	Diff
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15:52:17	<dminuoso>	Or I have some pretty deep `text` bug creeping up here.
15:52:25	<dminuoso>	Let me try switching this to string
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15:58:44	<janus>	kritzefitz: wouldn't it be possible to do "traverse (\x -> do y <- myFun x; guard (y /= empty); pure y)" or is there something more to it?
16:00:00	<dminuoso>	kritzefitz: Yes, it's called Witherable
16:00:13	<dminuoso>	With the contained class method `wither`
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16:00:35	<dminuoso>	wither :: (Witherable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f (Maybe b)) -> t a -> f (t b)
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16:01:15	<dminuoso>	janus: And no you cant
16:01:17	<dminuoso>	% :t guard
16:01:18	<yahb>	dminuoso: Alternative f => Bool -> f ()
16:01:21	<dminuoso>	% :t traverse
16:01:21	<yahb>	dminuoso: (Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
16:01:29	<janus>	ah bummeeeeeer
16:01:41	<dminuoso>	janus: traverse in its laws guarantees that you cant change its chape
16:01:43	<dminuoso>	*shape
16:02:01	<dminuoso>	But Witherable roughly fits what kritzefitz asked for, though it doesnt quite work with Alternative.
16:02:10	<kritzefitz>	Hmm, maybe I'm asking for a too general case. Let me rephrase.
16:02:52	<dminuoso>	Hooray. Okay, I managed to reduce the Diff bug to a test case of comparing two string lists of 5 elements each.
16:03:28	<dminuoso>	And in that degenerate case, I roughly get [First "foo", Second "foo"] as a sublist.
16:03:31	<dminuoso>	This is so broken...
16:03:41	<kritzefitz>	I have a bunch of STM actions (currently in a Set, but I could live with using a list) actions and I want to run them all and get all results that don't retry.
16:03:53	<janus>	to bad the project is on darcs so you'll never find out how many other people emailed Sterling Clover about the same issue ;)
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16:05:12	<dminuoso>	I think Im using it wrong.
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16:05:35	<dminuoso>	This is more likely than me discovering a fundamental bug in Diff which seems to drive thousands of projects.
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16:05:48	<dminuoso>	Time to read the paper I guess
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16:06:59	<janus>	79 reverse deps: https://packdeps.haskellers.com/reverse/Diff
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16:07:41	<dminuoso>	janus: The download count suggests this appears on many many projects.
16:07:46	<dminuoso>	Even if transitively
16:07:47	Hecate	just posted a controversial message on libraries@
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16:07:52	<Hecate>	pray for my soul
16:08:05	<dminuoso>	Hecate: Are there non-controversial messages on that ml?
16:08:08	<janus>	well aeson depends on Diff. that alone should account for it
16:08:38	<dminuoso>	janus: haha careful
16:08:40	<janus>	but most people probably do not rely on that part of aeson ;)
16:08:46	<Hecate>	dminuoso: hahahaha
16:08:49	<dminuoso>	This is just used in its test suite, in just a single occurence
16:09:13	<janus>	ok, maybe it is from dhall, fourmolu, hledger or pandoc then :P
16:09:39	<geekosaur>	well. nice big bikeshed for everyone to paint
16:10:03	<geekosaur>	flip side, this one actually has a reason, unlike the original proposal
16:10:17	<Hecate>	dminuoso: I've posted about the "single-method Eq" change
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16:11:18	janus	opens ML expecting to read about HoTT
16:11:26	<geekosaur>	then, as Ord needs to be changed anyway, might as well go all the way and introduce PartialOrd at the same time
16:11:29	<Hecate>	janus: no, thank go no
16:11:33	<Hecate>	*god
16:11:39	<dminuoso>	janus: Okay, I think Im just holding it wrong.
16:11:47	<dminuoso>	at the very least this is a documentation bug.
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16:12:09	<Hecate>	https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/libraries/2021-October/031492.html <- this is my email
16:13:03	<geekosaur>	or, since Ord is apparently documented to be a partial order, introduce TotalOrd and let the next wave of bikeshedding wait until it's settled a few versions on
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16:14:06	<Hecate>	geekosaur: ;_;
16:14:10	<Hecate>	nuh
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16:20:17	<fryguybob>	kritzefitz: All in one transation or running separately?
16:20:29	<kritzefitz>	All in one transaction.
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16:22:09	<Hecate>	/2
16:24:07	<kritzefitz>	Ah, now I understand dminuoso's comment. I not only need "Witherable" but also "optional".
16:24:11	<shapr>	/3
16:25:27	<fryguybob>	kritzefitz: Something like: atomically . mapM (\t -> (Just <$> t) `orElse` pure Nothing)
16:26:36	<dminuoso>	kritzefitz: wither + optional sounds fairly expressive :)
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16:27:21	<kritzefitz>	Yeah, but I'd like to avoid the additional dependency on witherable, so I'm probably gonna go with catMaybes + optional.
16:27:33	<dminuoso>	Absolutely, catMaybes is just wither monomorphized to list.
16:27:43	<janus>	kritzefitz: have you seen `withered` here https://chrispenner.ca/posts/witherable-optics
16:28:00	<dminuoso>	In our project I simply defined `wither` on the spot for the datatype I used rather than depend on witherable too
16:28:06	<dminuoso>	Personally I think `Witherable` should have been in base.
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16:29:24	<dminuoso>	kritzefitz: Hold on, the above characterization is wrong.
16:29:42	<dminuoso>	wither f t = catMaybes <$> traverse f t
16:29:44	<dminuoso>	witherAlt f = wither (optional . f)
16:29:48	<dminuoso>	kritzefitz: ^- haha. I even wrote witherAlt too! :)
16:29:58	<dminuoso>	This is straight from our largest project
16:30:24	<janus>	(witherAlt is withered from Chris Penner)
16:30:58	<dsal>	I saw a thing once that described the difference between adding data and functionality in OO vs. FP and can't remember it. I need that right now for someone who's wanting to "extend" data types. Anyone have any idea what I'm thinking of?
16:31:34	<fryguybob>	kritzefitz: Note that the order you are running these actions can have an effect on what result you get.
16:31:37	<dminuoso>	dsal: Mmm, sounds like the expressibility problem?
16:31:44	<dminuoso>	Or expression problem its called
16:32:02	<kritzefitz>	fryguybob: even if all the actions are read-only?
16:32:14	<dsal>	dminuoso: Yeah, thanks!
16:32:44	<dminuoso>	kritzefitz: Potentially, yes.
16:32:51	<fryguybob>	kritzefitz: Read-only actions commute with each other.
16:32:52	<dminuoso>	If there's other threads working these things in parallel
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16:33:20	<dminuoso>	That is, even if your wither on the structure causes read-only, if there's mutation operations outside, it could alter the behavior evidently
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16:33:32	<fryguybob>	kritzefitz: But say one action has a lot of reads, if that is at the end, there is a higher probability that the whole transction will succeed, so the performance can change.
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16:33:54	<dminuoso>	kritzefitz: Also, since STM is monadic, the read output can influence the further action selection...
16:34:04	<dminuoso>	So yeah. The order can still have an impact.
16:34:17	<dminuoso>	Ah but hold on
16:34:20	<dminuoso>	Nevermin dme
16:34:20	<janus>	dminuoso: where is optional from?
16:34:26	<dminuoso>	janus: base
16:34:30	<dminuoso>	% :i optional
16:34:31	<yahb>	dminuoso: optional :: Alternative f => f a -> f (Maybe a) -- Defined in `Control.Applicative'
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16:34:50	<dminuoso>	Very useful in parser combinators and STM
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16:35:27	<janus>	oh i hadn't realized that :info puts a comment on the type
16:35:29	<janus>	how rare
16:35:47	<Franciman>	mundane ^^
16:35:57	<Franciman>	ah no
16:36:00	<Franciman>	not mundane
16:36:03	<Franciman>	^^
16:36:09	<Franciman>	false friends
16:36:13	<Franciman>	fancy
16:36:16	<Franciman>	I meant
16:37:09	<janus>	Franciman: which language is the false friend in?
16:37:22	<kritzefitz>	Now I'm confused. Does the order of read-only actions in STM matter or does it not?
16:38:10	<kritzefitz>	Apart from performance. I don't think that matters a lot in my case, because the whole transaction is read-only.
16:38:21	<Franciman>	I thought it meant mondano, janus in italian, which means: brillantly and clostly refined
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16:39:40	<fryguybob>	kritzefitz: The only difference if they are all read only would be performance.
16:42:39	<kritzefitz>	Do you have an example of when performance would be affected?
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16:44:43	<fryguybob>	kritzefitz: The one I gave above. You can think of every transaction as having a probability of committing. Each read has a probability that the value seen gets overwritten. If highly likely to be overwritten reads happen first, that decresses the probability of commit vs if they happen last.
16:46:23	<fryguybob>	Failing ot commit means the transaction has to be run again (this is not the same as retry ) and that takes time.
16:47:20	<kritzefitz>	Ok, sure. But is there actually a possibility that a transactions has to be run again, if it never "retry"s?
16:47:35	<fryguybob>	kritzefitz: Absolutely.
16:47:52	<fryguybob>	kritzefitz: Any observation of a change in the read leads to running the transaction again.
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16:48:08	<kritzefitz>	Ah, right.
16:49:48	<kritzefitz>	Would running multiple transactions actually be better in this case?
16:50:13	<fryguybob>	If you can get a way with it is almost always better to have more smaller transactions than one big one.
16:50:41	<fryguybob>	But there is per-transaction overhead.
16:51:38	<fryguybob>	There is also readTVarIO which is much faster than atomically . readTVar
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17:55:18	<justsomeguy>	I'm getting -Wincomplete-patterns warnings on this function https://github.com/kingparra/hpfp/blob/master/08_-_recursion/exercises/8.6.3_-_recursion.rst.d/sum-to/src/Lib.hs
17:55:39	<justsomeguy>	How do I figure out which type it is partial for?
17:55:59	<monochrom>	The same type "a".
17:56:02	<monochrom>	@type signum
17:56:03	<lambdabot>	Num a => a -> a
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17:56:41	<monochrom>	It is very unclear that 0, 1, -1 cover all cases, even to humans.
17:56:45	<awpr>	GHC doesn't understand that signum can only ever return {0, 1, -1}, it's just Int
17:56:55	<monochrom>	Indeed, try signum on Complex Double.
17:57:06	<geekosaur>	this is in a way a shortcoming of signum, it should really use an ADT
17:57:20	<geekosaur>	although there is that, yeh
17:57:48	<awpr>	is it a unit vector of the same direction as the input?
17:57:53	<awpr>	(or zero)
17:58:18	<monochrom>	Let's try!
17:58:37	<monochrom>	> signum (3.0 :+ 4.0)
17:58:39	<lambdabot>	0.6 :+ 0.8
17:58:52	<monochrom>	> 0.6^2 + 0.8^2
17:58:53	<lambdabot>	1.0
17:59:05	<justsomeguy>	Ok, intersting, I didn't know that Data.Complex existed until just now.
17:59:20	<awpr>	that one worked out pleasingly well as far as decimal arithmetic goes
17:59:40	<monochrom>	I chose pleasing examples :)
18:00:04	<monochrom>	3,4,5 is a well-known Pythagorean triple :)
18:00:45	<dolio>	Yeah, but is dividing by 5 known to not cause eventual results like 1.000000001?
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18:01:05	<dolio>	:)
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18:01:57	<monochrom>	> magnitude (signum (3.0 :+ 4.0))
18:01:58	<lambdabot>	1.0
18:02:03	<monochrom>	> magnitude (signum (3.0 :+ 4.0)) - 1
18:02:04	<lambdabot>	0.0
18:02:11	<monochrom>	I'm lucky!
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18:07:42	<Heisen>	Good evening, could someone help me get this to work? Ive been stuck for a while. https://paste.tomsmeding.com/m4s9flyC
18:08:42	<Heisen>	Also I am new to IO so no complicated functions
18:10:01	<monochrom>	In what sense does it "not" "work"?
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18:13:17	<dminuoso>	Also what is "copyAll"?
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18:16:24	<Heisen>	It only saves the contents from the first file (x) monochrom
18:16:32	<Heisen>	not the other ones
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18:21:47	<monochrom>	I think dminuoso's question is also relevant.
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18:22:43	<Heisen>	It takes a couple of .txt files and add the contents together in a new file
18:23:02	<monochrom>	files? filenames?
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18:24:47	<dminuoso>	Best to share its definition in a paste.
18:25:13	<monochrom>	dminuoso, it is a recursive call.
18:25:21	<geekosaur>	they pasted it earlier
18:25:22	<dminuoso>	Oh.,
18:25:26	<Heisen>	I pasted it already?
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18:25:33	<dminuoso>	Haha, sorry I actually did not realize that.
18:25:45	<monochrom>	But what's in xs and is it what copyAll should expect?
18:27:02	<yin>	what do we call the ability of a language's function containing references to itself?
18:27:15	<monochrom>	recursion
18:27:31	<geekosaur>	explicit recursion, to be more precise
18:27:54	<geekosaur>	(as distinct from, say, using fix to achieve recursion)
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18:28:04	<yin>	geekosaur: that's it
18:28:10	<Heisen>	For example you have three .txt files, a.txt has hello, b.txt has help, c.txt has me. We call copyAll ["a.txt","b.txt","c.txt"] "d.txt"
18:28:21	<Heisen>	and we should expect d.txt to have hello help me
18:29:05	<monochrom>	Have you printed out xs to verify that it looks like ["b.txt", "c.txt"] for example?
18:29:34	<monochrom>	Or rather, more succintly, you evaded my question.
18:30:02	<monochrom>	My questions are guiding questions, if you evade them you learn nothing, you're just stuck with your confirmation bias.
18:30:45	<maerwald>	`(x:xs) <- sequence $ map readFile fromFiles`
18:31:06	<awpr>	#haskell corollary to Betteridge's law: when a question is answered with the question, the answer is the opposite of what you think
18:31:07	<maerwald>	that looks like a partial pattern match
18:31:19	<awpr>	with a question*
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18:32:57	<maerwald>	but yeah, it makes no sense
18:33:29	<monochrom>	The whole thing makes no sense, really. For example I wonder why not sequence_
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18:34:31	<monochrom>	But let's stab this existing solution bit by bit to a slow death first. >:)
18:34:36	<maerwald>	you could fix it by unsafeInterleaveIO xD
18:34:50	<maerwald>	in order to not read unnecessary files
18:34:55	<monochrom>	I think readFile already contains the necessary unsafeInterleaveIO.
18:35:34	<maerwald>	monochrom: well, it causes an open syscall still
18:35:41	<maerwald>	just the contents are lazy
18:35:52	<maerwald>	afaik
18:36:04	<monochrom>	Yes.
18:36:29	<maerwald>	lazy IO in Prelude was a mistak
18:36:33	<maerwald>	lazy IO is hard
18:37:54	<Heisen>	xs <- sequence $ map readFile fromFiles
18:37:54	<Heisen>	writeFile toFile (concat xs)
18:38:04	<Heisen>	solved, thanks anyway.
18:38:07	<maerwald>	Heisen: what?
18:38:19	<maerwald>	do you know what that does?
18:38:30	<Heisen>	Yep
18:38:34	<maerwald>	what does it do?
18:39:20	<monochrom>	Uh, I wouldn't ask that question, because any answer would be informationless anyway, in the same sense as...
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18:39:35	<monochrom>	<Q> Did you lie? <A> No.
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18:39:52	<maerwald>	Heisen: please check the contents after you've written the files :)
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18:46:23	<Inst>	why do I keep on getting parse error on input \|?
18:46:38	<dminuoso>	Inst: Share your code.
18:47:19	<monochrom>	"It depends." :)
18:47:20	<Inst>	It's utter noob crap
18:47:21	<Inst>	https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/528863657363505159/902267069444292608/unknown.png
18:47:46	<monochrom>	I don't see the parse error.
18:47:47	<dminuoso>	monochrom: haha, I was intent on writing the same thing as a conclusion from the chat in -ot
18:48:14	<monochrom>	In addition to why do you still think a screen crop is a good idea.
18:48:16	<geekosaur>	not` x
18:48:28	<geekosaur>	` should perhaps be '
18:49:14	<dminuoso>	Mmm, this would require a more sophisticated lexer to error out better right?
18:49:22	<geekosaur>	yeh
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18:51:47	<Inst>	ah, thanks
18:51:56	<Inst>	Still new, can't remember to use grave instead of single quote
18:52:24	<Inst>	oh wait, it should be single quote, not grave, right?
18:52:40	<dminuoso>	Indeed.
18:52:53	<Inst>	thanks
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19:03:51	<hippoid>	:t fmap.return
19:03:53	<lambdabot>	Functor f => b -> f a -> f b
19:04:16	<hippoid>	why is that type class restraint Functor f and not Monad m?
19:04:24	<hippoid>	:t return
19:04:24	<dminuoso>	hippoid: the name is utterly misleading.
19:04:25	<lambdabot>	Monad m => a -> m a
19:04:41	<dminuoso>	Probably some historical accident, something from our dark past better not mentioned.
19:04:50	<dminuoso>	return = <$
19:04:57	<dminuoso>	% :t (<$)
19:04:57	<yahb>	dminuoso: Functor f => a -> f b -> f a
19:05:29	<hippoid>	dminuoso: what name is utterly misleading?
19:05:32	<monochrom>	No, instead, I think a particular Monad instance is forced.
19:05:53	<tomsmeding>	:t \x -> fmap . x
19:05:54	<lambdabot>	Functor f => (a1 -> a2 -> b) -> a1 -> f a2 -> f b
19:05:54	<dminuoso>	Ohh hold on. Somehow I read this as `Data.Functor.return`
19:05:58	<dminuoso>	My mind is playing tricks on me today
19:06:09	<tomsmeding>	:t return :: a -> b -> c
19:06:10	<lambdabot>	error:
19:06:10	<lambdabot>	• Couldn't match type ‘a1’ with ‘c1’
19:06:10	<lambdabot>	‘a1’ is a rigid type variable bound by
19:06:31	<tomsmeding>	:t return :: a -> b -> a
19:06:32	<lambdabot>	a -> b -> a
19:07:00	<monochrom>	Consider in "\x -> fmap (return x)", consider unifying "a -> b" with "return x :: Monad m => m c"
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19:07:38	<tomsmeding>	yeah, 'return' here is the return of the ((->) b) monad; i.e. it's a -> m b where "m" is "b ->"
19:07:59	<tomsmeding>	:t fmap . const
19:08:00	<lambdabot>	Functor f => b -> f a -> f b
19:08:03	<tomsmeding>	same thing
19:09:14	<yin>	i'm trying to "really" understand the y combinator and i have a question. would this be a good place to ask?
19:09:16	<Boarders>	in my hlint file I have: -ignore: {name: "Move brackets to avoid $"}
19:09:21	<tomsmeding>	:t return :: a -> b -> a
19:09:22	<lambdabot>	a -> b -> a
19:09:23	<tomsmeding>	:t (<*>) :: (a -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> (a -> c)
19:09:24	<lambdabot>	(a -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
19:09:26	<Boarders>	but I keep getting that suggestion, is there something different I am supposed to write?
19:09:30	<tomsmeding>	K and S combinators anyone?
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19:10:18	<tomsmeding>	yin: probably :)
19:10:52	<yin>	here it goes
19:10:53	<yin>	Y = λf.(λx.f(x x))(λx.f(x x))
19:10:53	<yin>	Y = λf.(λx. x x )(λx.f(x x))
19:10:53	<yin>	^
19:10:54	<monochrom>	I wouldn't "understand" the Y combinator. I would understand the diagonal trick first, e.g., my http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~trebla/CSCC24-2021-Summer/09-semantics-1.html#rec
19:10:55	<yin>	what difference does this f make?
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19:11:26	<tomsmeding>	yin: have you tried just writing out what "Y(f)" evaluates to?
19:11:41	<tomsmeding>	it should be f(f(f(f(....))))
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19:13:21	<monochrom>	Or Oleg's https://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/fixed-point-combinators.html#Self-application
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19:16:02	<yin>	tomsmeding: yes
19:16:13	<yin>	so there is no difference
19:16:38	<yin>	theoretially at least
19:16:47	<tomsmeding>	well, with the additional 'f' you have "one extra f"
19:16:52	<yin>	is there any advantage of using one form over the other?
19:16:56	<tomsmeding>	which doesn't make a difference because there's infinitely many anyway
19:17:26	<tomsmeding>	yin: to speak about advantages, you have to give a use case :)
19:17:30	<yin>	i'm guessing one can be more performant than the other when applied to some language, depending on the implementation?
19:17:41	<tomsmeding>	I don't know any practical of this form of the fixpoint combinator
19:17:48	<tomsmeding>	s/practical/practical uses/
19:18:07	<hippoid>	so how does fmap.const and fmap.return have the same type? const is a->b->a, and return is a -> M a. Should I think of return as taking two parameters?
19:18:17	<hippoid>	:t fmap.const
19:18:18	<lambdabot>	Functor f => b -> f a -> f b
19:18:21	<hippoid>	:t fmap.return
19:18:22	<tomsmeding>	any language that cares about performance is going to implement the fixpoint combinator differently
19:18:23	<lambdabot>	Functor f => b -> f a -> f b
19:18:29	<monochrom>	<monochrom> Consider in "\x -> fmap (return x)", consider unifying "a -> b" with "return x :: Monad m => m c"
19:18:52	<monochrom>	After that, consider how, for that Monad instance, return = const.
19:19:05	<tomsmeding>	another hint: note that "a -> b" is the same as "(->) a b"
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19:19:22	<hippoid>	ok good stuff, need to chew on that
19:19:55	<tomsmeding>	partial application of (->), always sparkly the first time you taste it :)
19:20:12	<hippoid>	lol
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19:20:27	<geekosaur>	not to say mind-warping
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19:20:44	<geekosaur>	don't feel bad that it isn't clicking, people always have prolems the first time they hit this
19:20:58	<geekosaur>	and it takes a while to get used to
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19:21:10	<hippoid>	and i assume it's worth understanding?
19:21:17	<monochrom>	YES
19:21:18	<geekosaur>	it is, yes
19:21:28	<tomsmeding>	the ((->) a) instance is very useful for pointfree code golfing :p
19:21:58	<tomsmeding>	but disregarding that, understanding this will help a lot in getting a better feel for how Haskell's type system orks
19:22:00	<tomsmeding>	*works
19:22:11	<tomsmeding>	even if you won't use this instance often in particular
19:22:34	<monochrom>	And enriching what you know what "monad" means.
19:22:50	<hippoid>	good to know the path is a worthy one
19:22:51	<monochrom>	Since every surprising example enriches it.
19:23:16	<zincy>	Are there any alternatives to the Machines library if I want a Mealy machine?
19:24:01	<monochrom>	People keep asking "where to read yet another wordy intuition of monad" and miss the mark. To build intuition you confront a million examples, not a million essays.
19:24:16	<monochrom>	Actually true of learning anything.
19:24:22	<tomsmeding>	yeah
19:24:56	<tomsmeding>	I achieved some decent working understanding of Monad after I'd implemented a state monad and then a parser combinator monad
19:25:13	<monochrom>	Another enrichment is to, for example, see the equivalence between "data P a = MkP a a" and "((->) Bool) a". I put that on the exam.
19:25:14	<tomsmeding>	understanding at least for the common cases, that is
19:26:04	<Inst>	why do people claim that pattern matching is hard to learn?
19:26:06	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: where does the monad come in there?
19:26:29	<geekosaur>	Inst, because people expect to compare values, not match structure
19:26:38	<monochrom>	You will be surprised that you write >>= for P the same way you would write >>= for (->)e in general, and then just set e=Bool.
19:26:43	<Inst>	is there something I don't understand about pattern matching?
19:26:53	<Inst>	like, I'm treating it as effectively an overloaded function
19:26:57	<Inst>	it should be intuitive
19:26:59	<monochrom>	And then the even bigger surprise is that this is the only lawful solution for P.
19:26:59	<geekosaur>	in fact "structure" throws them off because this is where ADTs start to show their power
19:27:07	<monochrom>	(I learned it the hard way.)
19:27:17	<tomsmeding>	Inst: maybe because the control flow through pattern matching is non-linear? Like, you go into a pattern, perhaps fail a match, then back outward again and try the next
19:27:23	<geekosaur>	they just look like funny type declarations until you strat to understand this
19:27:38	<geekosaur>	*start to
19:27:48	<Inst>	yeah it's probably because my first language is basic and i haven't done this for years
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19:27:51	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: ooh, nice, Monad instance for P
19:28:00	<monochrom>	Inst: I claim that pattern matching is easy to learn. Now please ask those other people back "why do people claim that pattern matching is easy to learn?"
19:28:05	<Inst>	~"Haskell Is The Best Imperative Language"~
19:28:29	<monochrom>	Pattern matching is so easy to learn, Racket has it.
19:28:49	<tomsmeding>	C has pattern matching!
19:29:00	<tomsmeding>	on all the sum types that it supports, which is only integral values
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19:29:17	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: What c has is not real pattern matching.
19:29:28	<monochrom>	I love vacuously true statements :)
19:29:34	<Inst>	Pattern Matching is a better or worse written "Switch", I suppose
19:29:36	<tomsmeding>	okay disregarding that you can goto random places in a switch statement
19:29:37	<dminuoso>	It's way more complex than that because of fallthrough and additional control flow that can easily interrupt it.
19:29:45	<Inst>	the annoying thing about pattern matching seems to be having to type in the function over and over again
19:29:46	<yin>	Inst: nooo
19:30:01	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: even then, fallthrough is a disgusting thing.
19:30:01	<tomsmeding>	Inst: f x y = case x of
19:30:04	<monochrom>	Also disregard that duff-something device heh
19:30:09	<tomsmeding>	or if it's the last parameter, use \case
19:30:22	<Inst>	oh so there's syntax to avoid having to type all the damn patterns
19:30:28	<yin>	Inst: use pattern guards
19:30:32	<tomsmeding>	Inst: well, just use a case expression :p
19:30:35	<Inst>	yeah i prefer guards to pattern matching
19:30:42	<monochrom>	Yeah people hate "f x = case x of" because it seems to have to type in the "x" over and over again haha
19:30:55	<yin>	Inst: with pattern guards, you get the best of both worlds
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19:31:03	<Inst>	idgi, how bad are commodity coders
19:31:05	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: and fallthru is problematic because you can create unreadably complex code with it, by carefully placing breaks and interleaving it with effects..
19:31:08	<dminuoso>	And this is repeatedly done.
19:31:12	<yin>	i did ONLY pattern guards for everything for a while. it was "My style" :p
19:31:18	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: to be honest, Haskell's pattern matching could do with disjunctive patterns, like f (X a \| Y a) = ... a ...
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19:31:36	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: yes I'm personally guilty of writing such code at some point
19:31:38	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: Sure, but because C interleaves that with effects, its horrid.
19:32:04	<monochrom>	More seriously, I think the Haskell designers consciously preferred saying "f" over and over again. There is an aesthetic to it when you're the reader.
19:32:24	<Inst>	repetition is an important element of poetry
19:32:26	<Inst>	and prose
19:32:32	<dminuoso>	You can attach side effects to the X case, the Y case, and if the X branch has a fallthrough, then if you provide an X then you have two combined effects, in case of Y you have one.
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19:32:35	<tomsmeding>	yeah, though that aesthetic quickly wears down when the repeating part is long enough
19:32:45	<dminuoso>	And suddenly you have this non-obvious thing
19:32:46	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: it's beautiful
19:32:46	<monochrom>	Right? Because like, even when writing factorial, "f 0 = 1; f (n+1) = ..." looks really nice.
19:32:56	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: If you dont have to maintain that code, sure.
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19:33:01	<monochrom>	nice to read, of course.
19:33:02	<tomsmeding>	:D
19:33:13	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: is that an NplusKpatterns?
19:33:22	<monochrom>	Yeah that too.
19:33:26	<monochrom>	Old times.
19:33:29	<tomsmeding>	juicy
19:33:52	<monochrom>	We now understand that the computer should simply be telepathic so we need write nothing.
19:33:55	<tomsmeding>	I feel like if I'd confront students with NplusKpatterns, they'd just get more confused
19:34:36	<monochrom>	The only obstacle is that we are still not telepathic so you wouldn't be able to ESP the code that I ESP'ed into the computer!
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19:35:04	tomsmeding	reads EFI system partition
19:35:12	<monochrom>	Yeah no worries I am not teaching "f (n+1) = ..." to students.
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19:37:21	<dminuoso>	monochrom: We dont need to be telepathic, we are all part of a gigantic planet sized computer built for hyperintelligent, pan-dimensional beings.
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19:37:58	<dminuoso>	Speaking of which, weechat keeps writing your name in yellow. Mmmm.
19:38:20	tomsmeding	's weechat doesn't
19:38:35	<tomsmeding>	is that machine-dependent?
19:38:42	<dminuoso>	Curious question.
19:38:44	<geekosaur>	inverse bikeshedding!
19:39:02	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: Go on a journey and find out?
19:39:07	tomsmeding	goes
19:39:22	<byorgey>	is there a library function to do Monad m => [m (Maybe a)] -> m (Maybe a), which runs the computations until the first one which returns Just?
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19:40:12	<monochrom>	Some kind of msum or asum may be involved.
19:40:24	<maerwald>	I'd also expect Alternative rather than Maybe a
19:40:29	<dminuoso>	byorgey: `iterateWhile isJust` from monad-loops?
19:40:36	<dminuoso>	Ah not quite
19:40:55	<dminuoso>	Indeed, asum with an appropriate instance seems likely
19:41:36	<monochrom>	If you convert "m (Maybe a)" to "MaybeT m a" you have "sequence :: [MaybeT m a] -> MaybeT m a"
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19:41:52	<monochrom>	Err no, not sequence.
19:42:05	<dminuoso>	I'd expect it to have a shape of `(Traversable t, Alternative f) => t a -> (a -> f (Maybe b)) -> f b` perhaps?
19:42:25	<geekosaur>	wouldnm't it be asum at that point?
19:42:33	<monochrom>	@type asum
19:42:34	<lambdabot>	(Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a
19:42:49	<monochrom>	asum :: [MaybeT m a] -> MaybeT m a
19:42:52	<byorgey>	ah, asum at MaybeT might do it.
19:42:58	<monochrom>	:)
19:43:16	<byorgey>	thanks!
19:43:48	<maerwald>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/transformers-0.6.0.2/docs/src/Control.Monad.Trans.Maybe.html#line-165
19:43:50	<maerwald>	looks like it
19:43:56	<monochrom>	You may also like: unsafeCoerce bwhaahahah
19:44:11	<maerwald>	some Alternative instances propagate into the inner monad
19:44:16	<maerwald>	you can never trust classes
19:44:29	<monochrom>	Sure, I said MaybeT very concretely.
19:44:36	<dminuoso>	:s/classes/code/
19:44:49	<monochrom>	s/code//
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19:45:05	<maerwald>	no, I mean classes... I don't trust classes :)
19:45:09	<dminuoso>	Now we have a trailing space. :(
19:45:20	<dminuoso>	M-x delete-trailing-whitespace
19:45:24	<dminuoso>	Done now?
19:45:24	<monochrom>	"to be continued"
19:45:29	<maerwald>	can't even trust them to be lawful
19:45:48	<maerwald>	and once you enter transformers, is there anything really lawful?
19:45:57	<monochrom>	Yes.
19:46:01	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: weechat.look.nick_color_hash determines a hash function that indexes into weechat.color.chat_nick_colors
19:46:06	<tomsmeding>	so it's config dependent
19:46:15	<monochrom>	Err, nevermind, I'm not ready to back it up.
19:46:19	<maerwald>	heh
19:46:27	<maerwald>	that was my point
19:46:47	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: djb2 for me
19:46:50	<tomsmeding>	me too
19:47:00	<tomsmeding>	cyan,magenta,green,brown,lightblue,default,lightcyan,lightmagenta,lightgreen,blue
19:47:01	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: Does it perhaps insert ones own name into the hash?
19:47:20	<monochrom>	Do you trust parametricity?
19:47:26	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: Ohh that's it
19:47:27	<dminuoso>	I have more.
19:47:36	<tomsmeding>	oh pardon weechat.look.nick_color_hash_salt is also included
19:47:59	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: looks like it's just the salt and the nickname to be printed https://github.com/weechat/weechat/blob/950c2bb8985a7c4eccf1c43d34045337fffd3714/src/gui/gui-nick.c#L134
19:48:15	<dminuoso>	We might have different salts too
19:48:24	<tomsmeding>	my salt is an empty string lol
19:48:31	<dminuoso>	Same as well
19:48:33	<dminuoso>	But I have more colors
19:48:39	<monochrom>	Right? Much as you say about uncertainty over "StateT s m" for example, since m is parametric, since StateT's >>= can't even ask "which m am I talking about here?", its naughtiness is very much restricted.
19:48:42	<dminuoso>	weechat.color.chat_nick_colors string "red,lightred,162,167,204,green,lightgreen,035,042,047,084,120,154,148,yellow,brown,165,191,222,208,cyan,045,051,087,117,123,159,lightmagenta,128,171,176,213,111,148"
19:48:55	<tomsmeding>	now that I realise that I could use more colours because my terminal is cool I want more colours, but I'm afraid of getting different colours for nicks I know
19:49:19	<maerwald>	monochrom: that would be fantastic... behavior bubbling up lol
19:49:44	<maerwald>	well
19:49:46	<maerwald>	we can do that
19:49:57	<maerwald>	overlapping instances
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19:50:30	<monochrom>	You can do that in Java.
19:50:49	<tomsmeding>	haskell too, but you need to explicitly say you want RTTI (i.e. Typeable)
19:50:50	<monochrom>	Yes even when only using the generics part of Java.
19:53:21	<maerwald>	playing hide and seek
19:53:36	<maerwald>	that sums up my experience with Java
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19:54:15	<maerwald>	I like trees... I can reason about trees.
19:54:46	<Franciman>	maerwald: they also absorb co_2
19:54:57	<maerwald>	depends on the time of the day, no?
19:54:59	<monochrom>	trees are a social construct
19:55:04	<Franciman>	yep
19:55:24	<Franciman>	they also help regulating temperature in their ecosystem
19:55:33	<maerwald>	even on the command line, I have a mind map of trees...
19:55:46	<maerwald>	like, `gcc` won't invoke `make`, right?
19:56:12	<maerwald>	we can't do without trees
19:56:39	<Franciman>	they also make shadow
19:56:48	<Franciman>	Literally awesome objects
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19:58:03	<ski>	monochrom : oh, curious. i've usually seen it called ⌜ω⌝, never `diagonal'
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19:58:18	<monochrom>	OK here is what backs me up: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.90.2560
19:58:46	<monochrom>	has laws and theorems. includes transformers, e.g., StateT
19:59:31	<maerwald>	but you can't know whether an inner monad of your stack will be lawful :p
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19:59:44	<maerwald>	there's no typeclass "LawfulMonad m"
20:00:11	<monochrom>	ski: Well OK, Oleg says delta, didn't say why. So I tried to guess why, eventually I guessed diagonal because the halting problem diagonalization proof also does "run this program with its encoding as input"
20:00:29	<monochrom>	I am aware of that.
20:00:47	<maerwald>	and some instances are deliberately unlawful and so we say "yeah, don't use it this or that way"
20:01:34	<ski>	monochrom : yea, it's reasonable. just i can't recall seeing it before
20:01:36	<monochrom>	You know, I don't even know that mathematics as we know it is consistent.
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20:01:59	<tomsmeding>	me neither
20:02:00	<monochrom>	But I can work with "if it's consistent, then my code makes some kind of sense"
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20:03:07	<shapr>	ghoulguy: Have you ever written a document on tools for competitive programming?
20:03:17	<shapr>	or is there one you'd suggest?
20:03:18	<maerwald>	monochrom: I've heard that even the "mathematical induction" proof method is questioned by some.
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20:05:54	<maerwald>	but as long as the laws of mathematics make my rice cooker work, I think I'm fine with it
20:06:46	<maerwald>	although I'm not sure... they might be running embedded java these days
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20:34:10	<ghoulguy>	shapr: I don't remember writing anything permanent. I talked to someone about my thoughts and they included them in their own post to reddit for AoC. I'd probably tell someone to start by not using Haskell for it :3
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20:56:29	<yin>	/f yin
20:58:53	<yin>	f is for fail
20:59:17	<ski>	\t yang
20:59:18	<ski>	?
21:00:21	<yin>	\|φ unit
21:03:12	<shapr>	hi yin, how you doin?
21:03:38	<yin>	take 1 . tails -- the "one with everything" function
21:03:41	<yin>	shapr: hey
21:04:11	shapr	hops cheerfully
21:06:54	<Rembane_>	Happy beer! \o/
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21:21:57	<monochrom>	> (take 1 . tails) [1,2,3,4]
21:21:58	<lambdabot>	[[1,2,3,4]]
21:23:26	<geekosaur>	> (:[]) [1,2,3,4]
21:23:28	<lambdabot>	[[1,2,3,4]]
21:23:47	<geekosaur>	hungry monkey makes you one with everything!
21:27:32	<monochrom>	why you exploit hungry monkey labour?!
21:27:35	<monochrom>	>:)
21:29:53	<maerwald>	:t (flip id $) . (:[]) . (>=>)
21:29:54	<lambdabot>	Monad m => (a -> m b) -> ([(b -> m c1) -> a -> m c1] -> c2) -> c2
21:30:02	<maerwald>	ah, like I thought
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21:31:54	<monochrom>	That looks like some nested CPS goodness :)
21:32:15	<maerwald>	that's what I was aiming for, yeah... right...
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21:33:56	<carbolymer>	anyone tried to escape +RTS in systemd unit file?
21:34:12	<carbolymer>	that seems to break my unit file
21:34:24	<maerwald>	wrap it in a shell script
21:34:45	<geekosaur>	or use $GHCRTS instead
21:35:35	<carbolymer>	yeah, GHCRTS looks cleaner
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21:35:52	<carbolymer>	geekosaur: thx
21:36:03	<maerwald>	make sure it's not set globally :p
21:36:09	<carbolymer>	;]
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All times are in UTC on 2021-10-25.