Logs on 2021-10-26 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:21:05 | <Axman6> | is negative quit join? |
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| 00:32:53 | <ski> | i'd've expected negative part to be that |
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| 01:41:51 | <hololeap> | maerwald: wait, setting it globally actually seems like a good idea... |
| 01:42:54 | <hololeap> | export GHCRTS="-N4" |
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| 01:44:47 | <hololeap> | what's wrong with that? |
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| 02:25:43 | <Cajun> | if you dont compile with -threaded and -rtsopts i believe that would throw an error, and using the threaded GC is bound to lead to lower performance in single-threaded programs |
| 02:26:25 | <Cajun> | but exporting something for quick access to the many options for debugging/profiling doesnt seem like a terrible idea |
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| 02:43:34 | <Boarders> | I am trying to use the tool stan but am unsure of how to add a rule that will exclude a particular inspection-id, do any of you know how to do that? |
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| 03:35:43 | <safinaskar> | how to statically build C program with curl on nix os? |
| 03:36:11 | <safinaskar> | (yes, this question is unrelated to haskell, but unfortunately people in #nixos keep silence, so i ask here) |
| 03:36:28 | <safinaskar> | i want whole binary to be static |
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| 04:27:02 | <Axman6> | jackdk: you know nix, any ideas about ^ ? |
| 04:28:44 | <jackdk> | yeah, #nixos moved to matrix, I have a call in 90 seconds, will think more after. What's the C program linking against? just libcurl? |
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| 05:00:41 | <Inst> | can someone help me understand what's going on with function composition? |
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| 05:02:03 | <Inst> | dropLast :: [a0] -> [a0] |
| 05:02:04 | <Inst> | dropLast [] = [] |
| 05:02:04 | <Inst> | dropLast l = (reverse. reverse . init) l |
| 05:02:10 | <Inst> | sorry |
| 05:02:14 | <Inst> | https://pastebin.com/Eg4M2W4z |
| 05:02:17 | <Inst> | this works correctly |
| 05:02:26 | <Inst> | but it shouldn't, right? |
| 05:02:47 | <Inst> | my HLS is telling me it's wrong, that the reverse is superfluous |
| 05:02:49 | <int-e> | > (reverse . reverse . init) "abc" |
| 05:02:51 | <lambdabot> | "ab" |
| 05:02:58 | <int-e> | > init "abc" |
| 05:02:59 | <lambdabot> | "ab" |
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| 05:03:06 | <Inst> | oh, i see |
| 05:03:17 | <Inst> | i'm an idiot |
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| 05:21:26 | <sm> | hls doesn't like to say that :) |
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| 05:32:05 | <Axman6> | but sometimes it should |
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| 05:35:24 | <sm> | "Inst! cut it out!" |
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| 05:36:57 | <Axman6> | "For real bro? Did you seriously just write that?" |
| 05:37:12 | <Inst> | i mistook init for tail |
| 05:37:15 | <Inst> | so it worked in that context |
| 05:37:48 | <jneira[m]> | well hls only let hlint make kind suggestions :-P |
| 05:37:51 | <Axman6> | so you actually wanted reverse . tail . reverse |
| 05:37:56 | <Axman6> | which is what init does |
| 05:38:50 | <Axman6> | but much more efficiently |
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| 05:42:06 | <Inst> | it was an exercise ;_; |
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| 05:42:19 | <Inst> | i got confused and had init' that was really tail |
| 05:42:37 | <Axman6> | heh - nice work writing O(n) tail :P |
| 05:42:51 | <Axman6> | and possibly non-terminating tail |
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| 05:46:05 | <Inst> | probably, it's a lazy piece |
| 05:46:09 | <Inst> | just have 5 more exercises to go |
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| 05:47:18 | <Axman6> | You can do it! |
| 05:47:59 | <Axman6> | Feel free to ask for feedback (if this is homework let us know because we can't just give you answers in that case - and if it is homework, there's a very good chance your lecturer is in here :) |
| 05:48:37 | <Inst> | not at cambridge or anywhere that might use John Whitington's textbook |
| 05:49:24 | <Inst> | man why am i so lazy these days |
| 05:50:08 | <Inst> | bleh, the question requires that i use elem to create a function that removes all duplicate items in a list |
| 05:50:32 | <Inst> | otherwise i'd go look up how to remove length 2 of a list comprehension nested in a list comprehension |
| 05:52:52 | <Inst> | there's also full solutions at the end of the book, so it doesn't matter |
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| 06:12:53 | <haskell-noob> | hey - i'm trying to understand my veery first line of haskell code, but i'm not sure what it does: print(sum $ map (\x -> length $ filter ((==0) . (`rem` x)) [1 .. 65535] ) [1 .. 65535]) |
| 06:13:57 | <haskell-noob> | could anyone enlighten me? |
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| 06:18:01 | <pavonia> | haskell-noob: Do you know what the individual functions do? |
| 06:18:16 | <haskell-noob> | yeah, i do |
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| 06:18:38 | <Axman6> | maybe start by using a let statement to give names to each of the parts |
| 06:19:06 | <haskell-noob> | this isn't my code -- i'm just trying to understand it |
| 06:19:10 | <Axman6> | not that I've said that, I'm not sure where to start XD |
| 06:20:01 | <Axman6> | now* |
| 06:23:09 | <Axman6> | let countFactors x = length (filter (\d -> d `rem` x == 0) [1..65536]) in print (sum $ map countFators [1..65535]) |
| 06:23:17 | <Axman6> | roughly |
| 06:24:46 | <haskell-noob> | so would the countFactors return all integers 1 to 65535 where the integer is divisible by x? |
| 06:25:54 | <Axman6> | it counts how many numbers are factors of the given number below 65536, it doesn't return them |
| 06:26:11 | <Axman6> | but filter (\d -> d `rem` x == 0) [1..65536] does |
| 06:26:15 | <haskell-noob> | ahhh |
| 06:26:16 | <haskell-noob> | right of course |
| 06:26:19 | <haskell-noob> | that makes sense |
| 06:26:20 | <Axman6> | factorsOf x = filter (\d -> d `rem` x == 0) [1..65536] |
| 06:26:40 | <Axman6> | (with the assumption that x is less than 65536 |
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| 06:27:00 | <Axman6> | I probably messed up using 65536 instead of 65535 - habits die hard |
| 06:27:07 | <haskell-noob> | so the entire thing calculates the sum of how many factors each integer in the range [1 .. 65535] has |
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| 06:30:04 | <Inst> | in a guard specified by (x:xs), how do I set a pattern match for the empty set? |
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| 06:37:45 | <[exa]> | Inst: what does "in a guard specified by (x:xs)" mean precisely? (can you pastebin a tiny bit of code?) |
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| 06:38:01 | <[exa]> | (guards are usually specified by boolean conditions) |
| 06:38:27 | <Inst> | https://pastebin.com/3zQdNxT8 |
| 06:38:38 | <Inst> | with (x:xs) as an argument |
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| 06:38:53 | <[exa]> | ah so. (x:xs) can't be of length 0 |
| 06:39:14 | <Inst> | so I just switch (x:xs) out to x, no? |
| 06:39:16 | <pavonia> | @src length |
| 06:39:16 | <lambdabot> | Source not found. Do you think like you type? |
| 06:39:19 | <[exa]> | in particular, `makeSet` doesn't support empty list, because you always require the first element by patternmatching (x:xs) |
| 06:39:21 | <pavonia> | :< |
| 06:39:41 | <[exa]> | Inst: you can easily make another version for `makeSet [] = ` below that |
| 06:41:18 | <Inst> | thanks |
| 06:41:31 | <[exa]> | btw there's a way to patternmatch in guards, which could allow you to match both [] and (x:xs) variants in there (google "pattern guards") but I guess the above variant will be nicer |
| 06:41:41 | <Inst> | still ugly, but i hate pure pattern matching |
| 06:42:19 | <Inst> | i also discovered i hate this textbook and hutton's is better, but if I don't finish it I'm just going to keep on switching from textbook to textbook until I've read the entirety of haskell literature targeted at non-programmers |
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| 06:43:21 | <[exa]> | Inst: re "pure pattern matching" -- why hate it? (the multiple definitions style?) |
| 06:43:30 | <Inst> | having to type the function over and over again |
| 06:43:33 | <Inst> | it's a nice tool when you need it |
| 06:44:21 | <Inst> | and in Haskell, is there a way to say c == (2 || 3)? |
| 06:45:24 | <Inst> | thanks for the help, [exa] |
| 06:45:32 | <lortabac> | Inst: pattern-matching does not require typing the function name over and over again |
| 06:45:47 | <lortabac> | you can use "case" |
| 06:46:20 | <lortabac> | the syntax with the repeated function name is just syntactic sugar, it's useful when you want to match on multiple arguments at once |
| 06:46:39 | <[exa]> | Inst: I guess || isn't the boolean OR, ie. the condition doesn't reduce to c==True right? |
| 06:46:55 | <[exa]> | Inst: in that case ' c `elem` [2,3] ' would work |
| 06:47:18 | <[exa]> | also yeah +1 for `case` |
| 06:47:35 | <Inst> | i see |
| 06:48:22 | <Inst> | it's intended as a boolean or, i.e, ways to stuff things on one line and so on |
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| 06:59:22 | <Axman6> | case xs of [] -> doAThing; (y:ys) | x `elem [2,3] -> doThingsFor2And3 | otherwise -> doOtherThings |
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| 07:17:08 | <jackdk> | @help tell |
| 07:17:08 | <lambdabot> | tell <nick> <message>. When <nick> shows activity, tell them <message>. |
| 07:17:23 | <jackdk> | tell safinaskar https://git.sr.ht/~jack/curl-nix-sample |
| 07:17:36 | <jackdk> | @tell safinaskar https://git.sr.ht/~jack/curl-nix-sample |
| 07:17:36 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
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| 07:18:28 | <jackdk> | Axman6: stop nerd sniping me |
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| 07:30:14 | <timCF> | Hello I do have a problem. Problem are hundreds of types generated from Google Protobuf API schema, which do have a lot of ByteString fields which are looking ugly in case I'm trying to log them using Show. I'd prefer ByteString to look just like array of bytes (Int8) or at least as normal hex string. Is there any easy solution except doing my own GHC.Generics based Show class (to not implement it for any |
| 07:30:20 | <timCF> | single of hundreds types)? |
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| 07:35:00 | <[exa]> | timCF: I guess the solution with Generics isn't bad, given it's only for showing the stuff to the user |
| 07:35:27 | <[exa]> | normally you'd need to rewrite the Show instance for ByteString which is not adviseable I'd say |
| 07:36:52 | <[exa]> | notably, `generic-pretty` is pretty good |
| 07:37:22 | <[exa]> | and you can easily inject a specialized ByteString handling there |
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| 08:07:02 | <timCF> | [exa]: thanks! |
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| 09:44:42 | <jonathanx_> | Is there a way to automatically fix --pedantic errors? Like redundant imports/language pragmas? |
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| 09:45:51 | <jonathanx_> | I'm on vscode :) |
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| 09:48:06 | <fendor> | jonathanx_, while not completely automatic, you can at least in each file click the code-action "remove redundant imports" |
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| 10:39:13 | <timCF> | I'm trying to derive Generic for `newtype Vout = Vout Word32` but there is no Generic instance for Word32 (which seems pretty basic type) - is that expected and why? |
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| 10:44:23 | <dminuoso> | % data F = F Word32 deriving Generic -- timCF |
| 10:44:24 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
| 10:44:39 | <dminuoso> | Please share your code and the error message you are getting. |
| 10:45:37 | <dminuoso> | Oh wait |
| 10:45:56 | <dminuoso> | % newtype F = F Word32 deriving Generic -- timCF |
| 10:45:56 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
| 10:46:00 | <dminuoso> | There this is the correct example. |
| 10:46:42 | <timCF> | dminuoso: I'm usually using `deriving newtype` strategy. Strange it's not working. |
| 10:47:48 | <dminuoso> | timCF: Of course that wouldn't work. |
| 10:48:05 | <timCF> | dminuoso: the same example but with `deriving newtype` gives error `No instance for (Generic Word32)` |
| 10:48:15 | <dminuoso> | timCF: GND uses coerce to pierce the newtype and give you the underlying instance instead. |
| 10:48:25 | <dminuoso> | But Word32 doesnt have a Generic representation, because its a builtin/primitive type. |
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| 10:49:31 | <timCF> | dminuoso: Got it, thanks! Do you know, can I still use `deriving newtype` for other classes, but use `deriving stock` for Generic? |
| 10:49:45 | <timCF> | Somehow in one expression |
| 10:49:52 | <dminuoso> | timCF: You can use it for any class you want in general, even Generic. |
| 10:49:59 | <dminuoso> | In one expression? |
| 10:50:05 | <dminuoso> | These are not expressions, gramatically |
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| 10:50:14 | <timCF> | yes, without standalone instance syntax |
| 10:50:16 | <dminuoso> | timCF: You can use DerivingStrategies to specify multiple ones. |
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| 10:51:08 | <timCF> | dminuoso: wow, that's cool extension! Thanks! |
| 10:51:13 | <dminuoso> | % newtype F = F Word deriving stock Generic deriving newtype Num |
| 10:51:13 | <yahb> | dminuoso: |
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| 11:46:28 | <albet70> | what's the major changes in ghc 9.x than 8.x? |
| 11:47:08 | <merijn> | albet70: Check the release notes? :p |
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| 11:51:51 | <Cajun> | quite a bit, 9.2 looks especially fun :) |
| 11:53:10 | deni_ | is now known as deni |
| 11:54:13 | <albet70> | "Cajun :quite a bit, 9.2 looks especially fun :)", in which way? |
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| 11:55:48 | <merijn> | albet70: Presumably extensions, whether those are relevant depends how useful those are for you :p |
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| 11:56:28 | <merijn> | albet70: Note that the GHC user guide has release notes somewhere at the start documenting all import new features |
| 11:57:03 | <merijn> | Actually, there's one exciting new thing in 9.2 |
| 11:57:09 | <merijn> | -XNoFieldSelectors ! |
| 11:57:40 | <yushyin> | ^ i want that! |
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| 11:58:37 | <merijn> | I mean, screw all these complex record extensions, NoFieldSelectors means safe usage of record fields in sumtypes and that's all I really want :p |
| 11:59:20 | <merijn> | NoFieldSelectors + NamedFieldPuns, new match made in heaven |
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| 12:17:17 | <mastarija> | Do you think a game server for a game like Agar.IO implemented in Haskell can be profitable? |
| 12:17:44 | <dminuoso> | I dont think games are profitable in general. |
| 12:17:45 | <merijn> | Yes, no, maybe, it depends |
| 12:18:03 | <mastarija> | I've been working on a similar game for a while now, and now I'm thinking about costs of maintaining such a game server |
| 12:18:18 | <dminuoso> | Most game developers do it out of either misbelief in hidden fortunes, because they are masochists or because they just like games a lot. |
| 12:18:22 | <merijn> | Let me refine my answer: If you think technology matters for game success, you probably don't understand games well enough to make a profit :) |
| 12:18:46 | <mastarija> | Or rather, since margins will probably be tight I'm not sure if I could cover server expenses |
| 12:19:01 | <dminuoso> | The only way to make money off a game, is by hiring hords of underpayed developers, giving them high pressure to release poor code quickly, do good marketing, and then sell your game. |
| 12:19:04 | <merijn> | mastarija: Doubt it, servers are *really* cheap these days |
| 12:19:24 | <dminuoso> | mastarija: What's expensive about games is the developers and marketing. |
| 12:19:36 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Or channel divine inspiration and solo develop the biggest game of the year in fucking "GameMaker Studios" >.> |
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| 12:20:19 | <merijn> | Looking at you, Undertale, inspiring inferiority complexes in aspiring game developers everywhere... >.> |
| 12:20:23 | <mastarija> | dminuoso, I'm just looking to publish my work and keep it running |
| 12:20:35 | <dminuoso> | merijn: heh. There's a lot of survivor bias in that. :) |
| 12:20:38 | <mastarija> | not really looking for riches |
| 12:20:46 | <dminuoso> | The huge masses of indie game developers that are not successful.. |
| 12:20:52 | <kuribas> | mastarija: ask for a subscription fee. |
| 12:21:04 | <merijn> | mastarija: What makes you think the expenses of a server will be too high? How big a server do you think you need and how much do you imagine that costs? |
| 12:21:12 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Hence the "channel divine inspiration" |
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| 12:21:18 | <merijn> | That part is the hard bit :p |
| 12:21:35 | <merijn> | dminuoso: See also Stardew Valley and RimWorld :p |
| 12:21:35 | <mastarija> | Developing server in Haskell seems easier than doing it in Cpp (though I'm comfortable with both) |
| 12:21:47 | <mastarija> | I just have 0 experience in real life production Haskell |
| 12:21:53 | <kuribas> | mastarija: high server fees makes it sound like you'll have a lot of users :) |
| 12:22:08 | <mastarija> | That's the end goal |
| 12:22:16 | <dminuoso> | mastarija: First reality is, if you want contributors for a game, haskell is a terrible pick out of its low popularity. |
| 12:22:21 | <merijn> | mastarija: Note that if you're in comfortable with C and C++ then mixing and matching with Haskell as glue code is fairly straightforward |
| 12:22:28 | <kuribas> | mastarija: so start with a small working, cheap server. |
| 12:22:29 | <mastarija> | dminuoso, I don't want contributors :D |
| 12:22:52 | <mastarija> | merijn, yes I did some FFI |
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| 12:23:20 | <mastarija> | But my primary trade is WebDev and I have very little intuition about game servers |
| 12:23:37 | <zincy> | Is there a marketing plan for the game? |
| 12:23:49 | <mastarija> | zincy, yes |
| 12:24:03 | <mastarija> | I've been working on the idea for the past few years |
| 12:24:06 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Its not just divine inspiration though. You also need to channel divine energy to keep you alive while working tirelessly 15 hours a day, 6.5 days a week for 53 weeks in a year to deliver your indie game. |
| 12:24:20 | <dminuoso> | It's a darn cutthroat business. |
| 12:24:27 | <zincy> | When it comes to building projects people generally spend way too much time on the technology and then find out no one cares about the product |
| 12:24:33 | <dminuoso> | It's pretty much like fintech, except without the money. |
| 12:24:33 | <zincy> | *products |
| 12:24:33 | <mastarija> | With corona + some crypto gains I finally had some time to relax and work on the game ;) |
| 12:25:10 | <mastarija> | I've read that one of the "price" bottlenecks for games is bandwidth |
| 12:25:23 | <dminuoso> | Or any startup I guess? :) |
| 12:25:34 | <mastarija> | + I have somewhat more complex physics than agar |
| 12:25:37 | <zincy> | You will most likely face a user demand issue first before anything else |
| 12:25:46 | <mastarija> | I can deal with that :D |
| 12:26:03 | <mastarija> | My country subreddit is pretty active and supportive of gamedevs |
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| 12:26:09 | <mastarija> | So that's an entry point |
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| 12:27:22 | <merijn> | mastarija: bandwidth is fairly cheap in the grand scheme of things. You can get a 2 core server with 2TB bandwidth per month for, like, 5 dollars or less. The main bandwidth restriction in gaming is that you need good latency which limits how much data you can rely on sending |
| 12:27:35 | <mastarija> | So Haskell memory and cpu usage are not a big concern for a game server you think? |
| 12:27:47 | <dminuoso> | Seeing as Im working at an ISP, I can tell you right away that servers and bandwidths are mostly for free. |
| 12:27:48 | <mastarija> | merijn, yes, latency is a given |
| 12:27:54 | <dminuoso> | Their cost is almost completely negligible. |
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| 12:28:16 | <dminuoso> | You have to scale incredibly high for their cost to become a relevant factor |
| 12:28:28 | <merijn> | mastarija: If you earn non-zero incoming, paying for a big enough server is easy, because servers are generally fairly cheap (unless you have crazy usage) |
| 12:28:38 | <merijn> | The real issue is ever hitting non-zero income :p |
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| 12:28:43 | <dminuoso> | mastarija: One of the problems with Haskell, is that in GHC Haskell we have a stop-the-world garbage collector. |
| 12:28:46 | <dminuoso> | That can create latency issues. |
| 12:29:17 | <boxscape_> | There is a low-latency garbage collector as well though, now |
| 12:29:18 | <mastarija> | dminuoso, yes that's ok I think |
| 12:29:31 | <merijn> | boxscape_: "low" |
| 12:29:37 | <boxscape_> | lower, at least |
| 12:29:38 | <dminuoso> | mastarija: Its okay if your game server pauses for 10ms in the wrong moment? |
| 12:29:40 | <dminuoso> | Just asking. |
| 12:29:58 | <mastarija> | yes, I have decent client side prediction |
| 12:30:51 | <mastarija> | my main concern now is "if" I suddenly get a lot of trafic, I don't want to loose those customers because I couldn't scale |
| 12:31:10 | <dminuoso> | There's no silver bullet |
| 12:31:17 | <mastarija> | yes |
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| 12:31:51 | <dminuoso> | It's a very subtle balance to write software that can architecturally be adapted (!) to scale, but not overspend on premature optimization. |
| 12:31:56 | <merijn> | Ok, lemme stop you there and tell you know that engineering to scale with abitrary *hypothetical* large traffic spikes is a great way to never get anywhere :) |
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| 12:32:22 | <lortabac> | merijn: +1 |
| 12:32:26 | <dminuoso> | Have predicted growth, aim for that. |
| 12:32:29 | <mastarija> | merijn, I know that, however I don't think I'm optimizing prematurely here |
| 12:32:36 | <dminuoso> | If the growrth exceeds your predictions, refactor. |
| 12:32:46 | <dminuoso> | Yes you are. |
| 12:32:50 | <dminuoso> | 14:30:51 mastarija | my main concern now is "if" I suddenly get a lot of trafic, |
| 12:33:00 | <merijn> | Well, you don't even have a game, so you can't even predict how traffic will affect your game :p |
| 12:33:01 | <kuribas> | merijn: no, it's not! That's why every project needs microservices + cloud computing! |
| 12:33:14 | <dminuoso> | mastarija: write code, profile, optimize. in that order. |
| 12:33:25 | <kuribas> | and kubernetes and inlimited scalability. |
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| 12:33:38 | <dminuoso> | mastarija: you are trying to mix in hypothetical predictions of growth of users you dont have, playing a game you dont have. |
| 12:33:39 | <boxscape_> | is a microservices architecture feasible for a game server? |
| 12:34:05 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: Must be why so many games run on k8s. |
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| 12:34:19 | <mastarija> | don't know kubernetes, I have only resources to finish the basic game (it's already in a somewhat working state), also I don't have much funds so I'll be the only one working |
| 12:34:20 | <dminuoso> | This is quite an interesting remark, I shall remember it. |
| 12:34:40 | <dminuoso> | mastarija: You said yourself, you only have web development experience. |
| 12:34:42 | <kuribas> | mastarija: I was being ironic, don't use kubernetes :) |
| 12:35:02 | <mastarija> | "if" I get a lot of trafic, it won't be "profitable" for at least a while |
| 12:35:22 | <dminuoso> | You want to: a) build a game, b) expect to scale beyond expectations, c) design for that scale, and you have very limited funds, and d) no experience in writing scaling software or game software. |
| 12:35:24 | <geekosaur> | you can scratch the "if" part of that :) |
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| 12:35:40 | <dminuoso> | Not trying to dissuade you, but it sounds to me like you have a bad project plan. |
| 12:35:44 | <mastarija> | and being the only dev with no cash I can't scale |
| 12:35:57 | <merijn> | I mean, realistically getting more than 0 traffic exceeds the average indie |
| 12:36:08 | <merijn> | Your problem won't be "I can't scale" |
| 12:36:23 | <dminuoso> | merijn: Haha. Read that news about that fancy "electronic drivers license app" fail in Germany? |
| 12:36:29 | <merijn> | Your real problem will be "nobody will care enough for scaling to ever be relevant" |
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| 12:36:49 | <merijn> | So focus on solving the "make people care problem", then you can solve scaling if/when that happens |
| 12:36:53 | <merijn> | dminuoso: No? |
| 12:37:01 | <mastarija> | I'm pretty confident in success :), so investing a bit of time in advance, at least in a plan of how to scale is worth it from my perspective |
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| 12:38:08 | <kuribas> | mastarija: spend you time in advance to make it work, then if you'ld get enough traffic, you should have more funds to make it performant. |
| 12:38:08 | <dminuoso> | merijn: It was some "government spends many millions on blockchain nonsense" on an electronic drivers license that is worthless (its not recognizable in a traffic control), and it turns out that after the first thousand registration the entire thing came crashing in performance. It couldn't even scale to *hold* or process more than a thousand registrations. |
| 12:38:10 | <dminuoso> | Total. |
| 12:38:16 | <lortabac> | mastarija: I'd suggest you to focus on one problem at a time |
| 12:38:17 | <dminuoso> | Not thousand a second, Just some thousand total. |
| 12:38:43 | <lortabac> | for now the focus should be on releasing the game and have users |
| 12:39:15 | <mastarija> | lortabac, I know that, I was just looking for some opinions since I have no experience with Haskell in production |
| 12:39:28 | <dminuoso> | mastarija: Since you have limited funds, pick a language you're already familiar with. |
| 12:39:43 | <geekosaur> | there might be better ways to get experience on haskell in production than trying to dive into gamedev with no experience |
| 12:39:44 | <dminuoso> | It reduces costs of making the many learning mistakes of a completely strange programming language. |
| 12:39:58 | <geekosaur> | my own experience is one new thing is enough, two at once is asking for trouble |
| 12:40:09 | <kuribas> | It will be much harder to get good latency in haskell than in C++. |
| 12:40:13 | <dminuoso> | Haskell is particularly nasty to create performance problems with if you don't have experience. |
| 12:40:20 | <mastarija> | It takes some effort to write the server, if for some reason unbeknownst to me Haskell might be troublesome for a game server (other than garbage collector) than I'd go with CPP |
| 12:40:28 | <mastarija> | I know CPP and Haskell very well |
| 12:40:34 | <dminuoso> | If I was to write a game server, I might do it in Rust perhaps? |
| 12:40:35 | <mastarija> | So that's why I was asking |
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| 12:40:44 | <dminuoso> | Gives me good performance, an acceptable type system and semantics... |
| 12:40:52 | <mastarija> | dminuoso, don't really know rust |
| 12:40:53 | <dminuoso> | And more easily predictable memory behavior |
| 12:40:59 | <kuribas> | +1 for rust |
| 12:41:00 | <maerwald> | gamedev needs a lot of ecosystem |
| 12:41:04 | <maerwald> | Haskell doesn't have it |
| 12:41:13 | <maerwald> | serious gamedev, that is |
| 12:41:24 | <mastarija> | client is JS, server is Haskell, I just need networking library |
| 12:41:43 | <maerwald> | I don't think performance is your worst enemy in gamedev... I mean people are writing games in C# |
| 12:41:46 | <mastarija> | maerwald, sure, I'm not serious gamedev thoug :D |
| 12:42:11 | <maerwald> | and the GC in C# causes serious issues |
| 12:42:58 | <mastarija> | I guess I'll report back in few months :D |
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| 12:45:08 | <timCF> | Speaking about games - recently I did some small googling about simple games for developers designed to be played by developer-written bots, not humans. Shuch that you and your co-workers are writing multiple bots which fight with each other on some sort of arena |
| 12:45:30 | <dminuoso> | Many decades old. |
| 12:45:38 | <merijn> | timCF: A ton of those exist |
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| 12:46:07 | <mastarija> | I think there's even a site like codewars where you program such bots |
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| 12:46:37 | <timCF> | merijn: I did found only one called BatteSnake (I want it to allow implement bot in any programming language and communicate through web API) |
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| 12:47:47 | <kuribas> | corewars? |
| 12:48:07 | <geekosaur> | you may be using the wrong search terms. those kinds of game have been around since the 90s |
| 12:48:12 | <geekosaur> | yeh, that |
| 12:48:24 | <merijn> | corewars, there's the online scripted MMORTS |
| 12:48:31 | <merijn> | a billion variants of corewars, tbh |
| 12:48:40 | <dminuoso> | We had a bunch of such DOS games at the time |
| 12:48:52 | <dminuoso> | Cant recall the names, but there was a plethora of these |
| 12:49:06 | <kritzefitz> | I think screeps is a more recent example. |
| 12:49:16 | <merijn> | ah, screeps is the one I was thinking off, yeah |
| 12:49:20 | <geekosaur> | corewars was the first one I heard of and may have been the first one to exist |
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| 12:52:13 | <kritzefitz> | I once set out to make such a game in Haskell, but as discussed earlier, insufficient experience in game development and lack of ecosystem for gamedev in Haskell have prevented me from finishing this project (yet). |
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| 12:54:03 | <geekosaur> | hmm, ytry: try to trick another bot into making a Y combinator :þ |
| 12:54:05 | <mastarija> | kritzefitz, hopefully, once ARM is fully supported this will change |
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| 12:55:30 | <kritzefitz> | I'm not sure how support for ARM (by GHC?) would affect my experience in game development or the adoption of Haskell for game development. |
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| 13:06:21 | <tim1> | Just got Real World Haskell from my library. Has anyone read this book, is it good? |
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| 13:07:08 | <Clint> | i found it to be inconsistent and outdated |
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| 13:07:31 | AlexNoo_ | is now known as AlexNoo |
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| 13:07:58 | <sshine> | outdated. I think it was good at some point. there are still chapters that are good. |
| 13:08:09 | <tim1> | Oh ok do you have any other recommendation. |
| 13:08:55 | <sshine> | I don't think there is a realer world haskell book :) what are you looking for? |
| 13:09:23 | <mastarija> | kritzefitz, ARM support would incentivize mobile app development in Haskell, it's also easier to sell your apps on mobile. Money is great incentive to put some effort into GUI / Graphics libraries. |
| 13:09:51 | <tim1> | I just want to get started with haskell, bc I never did much in functional programming so basically an Introduction to Haskell |
| 13:10:10 | <mastarija> | tim1, just read / follow "Learn you a haskell" |
| 13:10:36 | <mastarija> | It's simple and easy to start with |
| 13:10:47 | <boxscape_> | tim1 here's a list of links http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/index.html |
| 13:10:51 | <merijn> | tbh, LYAH is not a very good book in terms of teaching |
| 13:10:53 | <merijn> | @where books |
| 13:10:53 | <lambdabot> | https://www.extrema.is/articles/haskell-books, see also @where LYAH, RWH, YAHT, SOE, HR, PIH, TFwH, wikibook, PCPH, HPFFP, HTAC, TwT, FoP, PFAD, WYAH, non-haskell-books |
| 13:11:03 | <boxscape_> | tim1 I gave you the wrong link -.- |
| 13:11:10 | <boxscape_> | I meant to post this https://github.com/bitemyapp/learnhaskell |
| 13:11:15 | <mastarija> | merijn, I've heard this sentiment |
| 13:11:27 | <mastarija> | I think it's better at teaching basic haskell than any other book I've read |
| 13:11:41 | <tim1> | No problem thank you all learn you a haskell sounds really cool |
| 13:11:46 | <opqdonut> | tim1: try haskell.mooc.fi |
| 13:11:46 | <mastarija> | http://learnyouahaskell.com/chapters |
| 13:11:53 | <merijn> | It doesn't really teach you anything, tbh. Once you finish LYAH you can't really write any real code |
| 13:12:00 | <opqdonut> | tim1: it's an online course with exercises that get automatically checked |
| 13:12:07 | <opqdonut> | tim1: (and it's completely free & open) |
| 13:12:10 | <mastarija> | merijn, it's for getting started |
| 13:12:37 | <boxscape_> | reminds me of a duolingo courses for natural languages :) |
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| 13:13:43 | <tim1> | Ok thank you guys will check them out! :) |
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| 13:16:27 | <justsomeguy> | Some of these books like "Haskell Programming from First Principles" and "Get Programming with Haskell" have online meetups, sometimes, which I find useful. |
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| 13:18:00 | justsomeguy | personally likes "Get Programming with Haskell" most, since it's brief and conversational. It doesn't do a good job of explaining environment setup, though. (Build tools, etc.) |
| 13:18:22 | <justsomeguy> | But maybe I shouldn't be reccomending books, since I don't yet know haskell. |
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| 13:20:11 | <tim1> | haha but thanks will check it out |
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| 13:24:45 | <albet70> | what's the easiest way to distro a binary package compiled by ghc? |
| 13:25:18 | <albet70> | distribute |
| 13:27:37 | <shapr> | albet70: ooh, I want to know that too |
| 13:27:52 | <shapr> | albet70: I've seen people upload to hackage, but that's a binary distribution |
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| 13:28:02 | <shapr> | I've seen people use nix to build a binary. |
| 13:28:56 | <kritzefitz> | albet70: If you don't have data files, you might get away with distributing a single statically compiled binary. |
| 13:30:29 | <kritzefitz> | albet70: otherwise you might want to look at this link, even though the answers there might be a bit unsatisfactory: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/68761677 |
| 13:31:27 | <shapr> | justsomeguy: or maybe you have a good viewpoint because others of us already know haskell? |
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| 13:36:33 | <justsomeguy> | Maybe the frustrations of trying to learn are fresher in my mind. |
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| 13:38:10 | <albet70> | kritzefitz, statically? how? musl? |
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| 13:38:29 | <albet70> | shapr, I'd like to have a binary distribution |
| 13:38:35 | <dminuoso> | albet70: Do it on an alpine docker image for ease. |
| 13:39:04 | <dminuoso> | That way you have the full toolchain available, including musl and other static .a libraries |
| 13:39:15 | <dminuoso> | Remember to pass the appropriate linker flags to ghc |
| 13:39:27 | <albet70> | I see |
| 13:40:14 | <albet70> | most gnu linux distro use dynamic links, not good to ghc |
| 13:40:37 | <kritzefitz> | albet70: I guess it depends on your target audience and what foreign dependencies you have besides libc. If you only have foreign dependencies on “standard” libraries, you could just assume that your users will probably already have those libraries installed. |
| 13:41:37 | <albet70> | archlinux, debian 9, debian 10, those three I don't think they share the same libs |
| 13:42:02 | <albet70> | specially archlinux, pain in the ass |
| 13:42:14 | <dminuoso> | albet70: Yeah. So far Ive only had two good experiencing making static haskell binaries. Alpine Linux or on Nixos with static-haskell-nix, but the latter is only sensible if you're already an intermediate/expert at nix. |
| 13:42:19 | <merijn> | albet70: You'll have to compile executables per distro, yes. Like all other compiled languages |
| 13:42:21 | <dminuoso> | Alpine Linux is way easier and very reliable. |
| 13:42:36 | <dminuoso> | And doing it via docker makes it very portable as to where you build it. |
| 13:43:00 | <dminuoso> | We used to do this via docker executors in our gitlab back when we still did static linking. |
| 13:43:49 | <dminuoso> | albet70: So the usual way is that you dont care about distribution packaging, and make it the problem of some volunteer maintainer. |
| 13:44:10 | <dminuoso> | With some lucky you get them part of your project, such that you can coordinate releases |
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| 13:48:36 | <shapr> | albet70: If you find more answers, will you post them somewhere? |
| 13:48:40 | <kritzefitz> | albet70: in case you want to make distribution specific packages you might want to take a look at cabal-debian, but that only gets you far if you already have debian packages for all your dependencies. |
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| 13:50:37 | <albet70> | "🟢 shapr :albet70: If you find more answers, will you post them somewhere?", I think docker alpine musl is the best anwser, no need to post |
| 13:50:59 | <shapr> | albet70: fair enough |
| 13:51:30 | <shapr> | I'd like to have some automatic way to publish my Haskell programs to linux and mac |
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| 13:52:45 | <albet70> | "🟢 kritzefitz :albet70: in case you want to make distribution specific packages you might want to take a look at cabal-debian, but that only gets you far if you already have debian packages for all your dependencies.", does cabal has something like raco? |
| 13:53:05 | <albet70> | raco is a tool for racket to distribute binary file |
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| 13:54:05 | <kritzefitz> | I don't know raco well enough to know for sure, but from your description it sounds like cabal doesn't have something like that. |
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| 13:54:30 | <shapr> | What does raco do? |
| 13:54:43 | <shapr> | does it create a static binary? |
| 13:55:08 | <albet70> | raco would create a package which contain libraries and binary |
| 13:55:16 | <shapr> | oh |
| 13:55:16 | <merijn> | The real problem isn't Haskell/GHC, but the fact that glibc refuses to be statically linked sanely |
| 13:56:46 | <albet70> | merijn, if glibc use statically linked, what is the bad for it? file size will be too big? |
| 13:56:47 | <dminuoso> | Oh it doesnt. |
| 13:56:52 | <dminuoso> | glibc happily statically links |
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| 13:57:05 | <dminuoso> | You get just error prone and undefined behavior if you use NSS or other things.. |
| 13:57:09 | <merijn> | albet70: No, glibc is intentionally designed to behave badly/break when statically linked |
| 13:57:13 | <dminuoso> | Yup |
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| 13:57:40 | <dminuoso> | albet70: If you statically link against glibc and you use getaddrinfo from it, you *must* also dynamically load the same glibc version. |
| 13:57:41 | <merijn> | Because one of the core glibc maintainers is a fundamentalist who hates static linking for ideological reasons |
| 13:57:46 | <dminuoso> | albet70: just digest that for a moment. |
| 13:58:14 | <dminuoso> | statically linking glibc means you *must* have a dynamic variant of it of the same version around still in most cases. |
| 13:58:18 | shapr | cannot digest, and must regurgitate |
| 13:59:33 | <albet70> | "merijn :Because one of the core glibc maintainers is a fundamentalist who hates static linking for ideological reasons", how Linus feel about this? support or disagree? |
| 13:59:57 | <merijn> | albet70: Linus is not involved at all? |
| 14:00:05 | <dminuoso> | albet70: The problem is this. The original author is largely known as an "dictator asshole" amongst many internet communities, for having extremely religious views on things. He really thinks its his place to educate people that static linking is so bad, that glibc was designed to make it as hard as possible. |
| 14:00:06 | <albet70> | ok |
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| 14:00:10 | <shapr> | oh my |
| 14:00:13 | <merijn> | Why would he be? He deals with linux and the kernel, not GNU and distro packaging |
| 14:00:31 | <albet70> | but this glibc is really effect lots of things in linux |
| 14:00:34 | <dminuoso> | albet70: https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=10134 |
| 14:00:40 | <dminuoso> | Take a good look at this bug report. |
| 14:00:43 | <dminuoso> | It's humerous but true. |
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| 14:02:11 | <janus> | but why does it matter what the original author (Drepper?) thinks when he doesn't have a commit bit anymore? |
| 14:02:47 | <merijn> | Pretty sure Drepper still maintains glibc |
| 14:05:05 | <albet70> | the other system like BSD or OSX, what they use? glibc? |
| 14:05:34 | <merijn> | They use their own libc |
| 14:05:39 | <albet70> | there're two things I hated in most linux distro, systemd and glibc |
| 14:05:56 | <merijn> | FreeBSD uses it's own libc and OSX uses a fork of that |
| 14:06:13 | <albet70> | they can do statically linked? |
| 14:06:22 | <merijn> | afaik |
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| 14:13:29 | <janus> | there are also linux distros that use musl |
| 14:13:42 | <albet70> | "janus :there are also linux distros that use musl", alpine |
| 14:13:58 | <albet70> | most living in docker |
| 14:14:30 | <albet70> | not a real installed system on hard disk |
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| 14:17:17 | <janus> | albet70: what are you using now? since you write 'hated' in past tense |
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| 14:18:17 | <zzz> | is this an interesting idea? https://www.unisonweb.org/ |
| 14:18:30 | <janus> | zzz: nope |
| 14:18:40 | <albet70> | "🟢 janus :albet70: what are you using now? since you write 'hated' in past tense", windows |
| 14:18:52 | <shapr> | oh my |
| 14:18:53 | <zzz> | janus: are you familiar with it? |
| 14:19:40 | <janus> | zzz: only superficially :P just thought i'd give a random answer to a random question, sorry. |
| 14:19:49 | <zzz> | fair enough :p |
| 14:21:08 | <zzz> | > Unison definitions are identified by content. Each Unison definition is some syntax tree, and by hashing this tree in a way that incorporates the hashes of all that definition's dependencies, we obtain the Unison hash which uniquely identifies that definition. |
| 14:21:10 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:89: error: parse error on input ‘,’ |
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| 14:22:05 | <janus> | zzz: let's discuss it in #haskell-offtopic |
| 14:22:18 | <zzz> | janus: yeah that makes sense |
| 14:22:23 | <zzz> | sorry about that |
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| 14:22:55 | <geekosaur> | freebsd can do static libc. os x does dynamic everything |
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| 14:23:25 | <geekosaur> | you can't even get a static libSystem, iirc |
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| 14:24:06 | <merijn> | There isn't even a library file anymore :p |
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| 14:43:56 | <janus> | albet70: i'd like to learn about linking on windows. join me in #haskell-offtopic |
| 14:45:28 | <dminuoso> | Does sqlite-simple have an equivalent of the In newtype wrapper, to fit inside `WHERE x IN ?` |
| 14:46:33 | <dminuoso> | Oh hah hold on |
| 14:46:35 | <dminuoso> | sqlite cant do this |
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| 14:48:30 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Sure you can! |
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| 14:48:46 | <merijn> | dminuoso: foreign export a haskell predicate function and inject it into your query! |
| 14:49:04 | <merijn> | And rewrite to "WHERE pred(x)" for an arbitrary predicate! |
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| 14:50:18 | <merijn> | I haven't done it (yet), but I know enough that you can do it :p |
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| 14:50:59 | <dminuoso> | o.o |
| 14:51:19 | <dminuoso> | merijn: That needs some custom ToField for that too I guess?> |
| 14:52:27 | <merijn> | dminuoso: I don't think you can do that it that way, tbh |
| 14:53:00 | <merijn> | dminuoso: But you can have your query calling arbitrary code in the same process, including whatever Haskell predicates you want :p |
| 14:53:22 | <merijn> | Whether it's worth the effort depends on the size of your query and how badly you need it over stringly manipulation of your where :p |
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| 15:28:51 | <moonoid> | Hi, I need a two dimensional Int matrix. Is Vector (Vector Int) a good idea or should I use another another package? |
| 15:29:10 | <merijn> | @hackage hmatrix -- ? |
| 15:29:10 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hmatrix -- ? |
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| 15:32:45 | <moonoid> | merijn: I did a bad job explaining. I'm a beginner and I'm familiar with the Vector api. Can I get away with representing an Int matrix as nested Vectors or will I soon run into trouble? |
| 15:33:06 | <dminuoso> | moonoid: depends (tm) |
| 15:33:14 | <moonoid> | :D |
| 15:33:27 | <dminuoso> | It all depends on what you intend to do |
| 15:33:28 | <merijn> | That, yes |
| 15:33:33 | <adamCS> | moonoid: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/massiv is also pretty good. Very much depends on what you need to do with the matrix, though. |
| 15:33:56 | <dminuoso> | If you're just dabbling with some excercise and you need to represent some 2 dimensional discrete space, a Vector of Vector is probably fine. |
| 15:34:08 | <dminuoso> | If you want to do linear algebra or some kind you probably to use hmatrix |
| 15:34:10 | <merijn> | hmatrix uses BLAS/LAPACK internally, so it'll be *much* faster for most non-trivial operations |
| 15:34:39 | <merijn> | If you just need a simple 2D array, I'd use either "Map (Int, Int) a" or Array |
| 15:35:16 | <merijn> | adamCS: No benchmarks comparing with hmatrix :( |
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| 15:37:06 | <moonoid> | For now I don't care about performance. I will give Map (Int,Int) a try. |
| 15:37:18 | <adamCS> | merijn: Yeah. I assume hmatrix would be faster for all the things where BLAS/LAPACK are in the critical path. But if you are doing all the low-level manipulation yourself, it's less clear. Benchmarks would be good. |
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| 15:43:42 | <monochrom> | I have benchmarks comparing hmatrix with hmatrix. It says they perform the same. #identitymatrix >:) |
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| 15:45:48 | <xerox> | moonoid: there's also Data.Array from the array package (and some variations on it) |
| 15:46:14 | <xerox> | dimensionality is achieved through Data.Ix |
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| 16:51:27 | <zzz> | am i wrong to say that continuations are "closures"? |
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| 16:52:12 | <geekosaur> | they're one specific kind of closure |
| 16:53:17 | <moonoid> | Is it possible to call a Haskell script from the bash command line as if it were "cd" or "rm". So no specifying the path to the script and no "$ ghc ..."? |
| 16:55:42 | <yushyin> | moonoid: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cabal-commands.html#cabal-v2-run |
| 16:56:49 | <geekosaur> | not sure if runghc lets you have a #! line as the first line of the file… |
| 16:56:56 | <yushyin> | with one disadvantage, the compiled executable is not cached |
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| 16:57:45 | <merijn> | moonoid: Kinda, but your probably don't want that as it'll be slow |
| 16:58:04 | <merijn> | moonoid: You'd wanna compile it once and then just use the result, tbh |
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| 16:59:24 | <moonoid> | yushyin: So the idea is that a globally accessible cabal cmd knows about this script? |
| 16:59:45 | <moonoid> | merijn: So basically make an executable and add the dir to PATH? |
| 16:59:50 | <merijn> | moonoid: Well, yes |
| 16:59:59 | <merijn> | Like in any other compiled language :p |
| 17:00:45 | <moonoid> | True but Haskell somehow feels special. ;) |
| 17:01:13 | <geekosaur> | not really |
| 17:01:21 | <merijn> | runghc and the cabal run shebang are possible options, but they're gonna be significantly slower |
| 17:01:29 | <geekosaur> | it's not that different from C / C++ in this regard |
| 17:02:11 | <geekosaur> | it feels different if what you're used to is js or python, I'll grant |
| 17:03:02 | <merijn> | geekosaur: I think he meant haskell doesn't feel like C :p |
| 17:03:34 | <geekosaur> | rust's crate might be closer? |
| 17:03:52 | <geekosaur> | I think they even borrowed some things from cabal |
| 17:08:55 | <AWizzArd> | Linear Types. Does it count as one use if I use a var in the Then branch and the Else branch of an IF? |
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| 17:19:49 | <Franciman> | yes AWizzArd |
| 17:20:25 | <dminuoso> | It'd be a bit strange if linear types couldn't even chase linearity through something as simple as if-then-else |
| 17:20:35 | <Franciman> | wait it depends |
| 17:20:45 | <Franciman> | do you use the linear variable in the if condition? |
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| 17:21:15 | <Franciman> | that would count as one usage :P |
| 17:21:18 | <Franciman> | asking for making sure |
| 17:21:33 | <dminuoso> | Mmmm https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/19477 |
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| 17:25:14 | <geekosaur> | mm, I've been thinking it is getting to be time to take QualifiedDo to heart and just split up RebindableSyntax into its components |
| 17:25:26 | <geekosaur> | it's the modern -fglasgow-exts |
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| 17:27:14 | <AWizzArd> | Franciman: Not using it, yet, just wondering if it could do that. But as dminuoso said it would be strange if it couldn’t do this. |
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| 17:36:37 | <merijn> | btw, what's the term when numerical errors compound into a catastrophic error in the final result? |
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| 17:40:21 | <geekosaur> | "sadness" |
| 17:40:39 | <merijn> | actually "catastrophic error propagation" sounds good :p |
| 17:41:59 | <Rembane_> | CEP-flag |
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| 17:49:34 | <sm> | moonoid: stack scripts are similar, but a little better: they cache the compiled version, and are more reproducible |
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| 18:01:33 | <maerwald> | for some very narrow meaning of reproducible :) |
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| 18:02:23 | <maerwald> | but yeah, you probably can't use a freeze file with a cabal script |
| 18:02:48 | <sclv> | you just put the version bounds directly in the header |
| 18:02:49 | <sclv> | *shrug8 |
| 18:03:36 | <maerwald> | that's not a freeze file |
| 18:04:07 | <sclv> | yes, but it freezes the deps nonetheless |
| 18:04:14 | <maerwald> | the direct dependencies only |
| 18:05:31 | <monochrom> | It is legal to include indirect dependencies. |
| 18:06:53 | <maerwald> | how would you expan them? :) |
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| 18:07:36 | <monochrom> | "perseverence" |
| 18:08:02 | <merijn> | What's fancy math speak for the "parts" of a summation? |
| 18:08:12 | <monochrom> | summand |
| 18:08:28 | <monochrom> | terms |
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| 18:08:43 | <sclv> | you can generate them by generating a freeze file and pasting the output in |
| 18:08:45 | <merijn> | summand is probably best |
| 18:08:56 | <sclv> | or a gen-bounds |
| 18:08:59 | <monochrom> | Ugh I was inconsistent. summand or term; summands or terms. |
| 18:09:11 | <sclv> | (actually gen-bounds only does direct, disregard) |
| 18:10:27 | <monochrom> | I hesitated to suggest "use cabal freeze" because it would defeat the point of being too lazy to write a *.cabal file :) |
| 18:12:06 | <sm> | yes, it is still quite hard to make a cabal script reproducible. The other part of it, mentioned here recently, is that it depends on you having done cabal update recently |
| 18:12:30 | <sclv> | i don't think "paste in the deps" is hard. *shrug* |
| 18:12:46 | <sclv> | i do think we should better document the grammar of the cabal header block |
| 18:12:52 | <maerwald> | how do you generate a freeze file without a cabal file? |
| 18:12:57 | <sclv> | i think its closer to a cabal.project than a cabal file, but ot sure |
| 18:13:22 | <sclv> | i didn't think the use case for scripts was "too lazy to generate a cabal file" |
| 18:13:44 | <maerwald> | yes that's the use case |
| 18:13:45 | <sclv> | i thought it was "ease of distribution" |
| 18:14:05 | <geekosaur> | scripts always struck me as a haskell source with a cabal file at the top |
| 18:14:12 | <geekosaur> | phrased a little differently |
| 18:14:31 | <geekosaur> | which doesn't seem very lazy |
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| 18:24:15 | <shapr> | speaking of which, I keep meaning to try https://github.com/BrianHicks/nix-script |
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| 18:30:24 | <sm> | the idea of a script is "one file, just works" |
| 18:30:27 | <sm> | and secondly, "easier to make than a cabal project" |
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| 18:31:30 | <sm> | if you try shipping haskell code that just works, including for non-haskellers, you'll find all the pain points |
| 18:32:02 | <maerwald> | yeah, send them a nix config, haha |
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| 18:38:58 | <superstar64> | How do I get hpc to work with cabal? I've tried running `cabal test --enable-coverage` but the pages it generates inside dist-newstyle are empty. |
| 18:40:56 | <geekosaur> | do you run the program to completion, or do you interrupt it somehow? |
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| 18:42:20 | <superstar64> | It runs to completetion and cabal tells me that my tests pass and that the html files are written |
| 18:42:34 | <maerwald> | cabal version? |
| 18:42:48 | <maerwald> | I've never actually done this, will give it a go |
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| 18:43:17 | <superstar64> | cabal-install version 3.0.0.0 |
| 18:43:24 | <superstar64> | compiled using version 3.0.1.0 of the Cabal library |
| 18:43:26 | <maerwald> | upgrade to something newer |
| 18:43:31 | <maerwald> | 3.4.1.0 or 3.6.2.0 |
| 18:43:45 | <maerwald> | hunting bugs in legacy versions isn't worth it |
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| 18:43:52 | <superstar64> | It's the default on debian testing |
| 18:44:03 | <maerwald> | well |
| 18:44:14 | <maerwald> | https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/ |
| 18:44:18 | <maerwald> | install something new |
| 18:46:13 | <superstar64> | How out of date is 3.0.0.0? debian testing is usually pretty new |
| 18:46:19 | <maerwald> | it's not new |
| 18:46:51 | <maerwald> | from 2019 |
| 18:46:54 | <maerwald> | pre-covid |
| 18:47:17 | <geekosaur> | we're on 3.6.x now, this should say something |
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| 18:50:10 | <janus> | i wonder if distros will ever admit that they just shouldn't try to package stuff they don't need for the system :P |
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| 18:51:08 | <geekosaur> | not as long as the distro repos are the first place people look for stuff |
| 18:52:46 | <janus> | i think the first place people look for stuff is using google ;) so they won't find https://www.debian.org/distrib/packages first |
| 18:53:12 | <superstar64> | I try to use debian's package manager when ever possible |
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| 18:53:38 | <maerwald> | well, good luck then :p |
| 18:53:43 | <superstar64> | A lot of cabal packages are actually on debian's repos |
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| 18:53:54 | <maerwald> | yeah, avoid those |
| 18:54:12 | <superstar64> | Why? |
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| 18:55:58 | <janus> | because they are unmaintained as you can see |
| 18:56:12 | <superstar64> | Having it as a dpkg package actually uninstall it |
| 18:56:42 | <superstar64> | actually lets me uninstall things* |
| 18:57:31 | <[exa]> | superstar64: it's good for supporting the other debian packages, but if you need something a bit custom (bumping one version of something in the middle of dependency chain), you just can't |
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| 18:59:06 | <[exa]> | that said, it works (I'm keeping system pandoc installation that way), also for development, but there you're sooner or later going to hit a wall |
| 18:59:42 | <merijn> | having pandoc dependencies installed as separate debian package is a dumb ass decision anyway |
| 19:00:00 | <merijn> | They should just install the final static binary and not a 100+ transitive haskell dependencies as dynamic libs |
| 19:01:04 | <geekosaur> | debian's not the one that does that |
| 19:01:29 | <geekosaur> | they do have the poackages but that's because a system should be able to reproduce itself; thy're build-only deps |
| 19:01:51 | <geekosaur> | if you install pandoc you get only pandoc |
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| 19:03:14 | <[exa]> | there's some debian policy that prevented this, but given the amount of software installed as static (mainly the venerable 450MB docker binary) I guess it could use an update |
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| 19:03:24 | <[exa]> | geekosaur: wow is that a recent update? |
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| 19:03:42 | <geekosaur> | I didn't get gallons of crap when I installed pandoc |
| 19:03:57 | <geekosaur> | that said I'm on ubuntu which might have altered that policy, I guess |
| 19:04:12 | <[exa]> | oh wow really, there we go 148M /usr/bin/pandoc |
| 19:04:13 | <geekosaur> | ut they certainly don't install stuff dynamically like arch does |
| 19:04:38 | <janus> | no, it's not just ubuntu, it also doesn't install all the deps on debian bullseye |
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| 19:09:46 | <[exa]> | ok cool, seems like I completely confused myself into believing that pandoc actually depends on that stuff |
| 19:10:02 | <[exa]> | what a great day to learn this. |
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| 20:09:27 | <ski> | merijn : fwiw, there's also "augend" (that which is added to) and "addend" (the thing to add) |
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| 20:10:08 | <geekosaur> | "augend" looks too much like "augeas" |
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| 20:12:16 | <maerwald> | so, how do you install ghcjs? Are there bindists? |
| 20:12:17 | <merijn> | ski: To fancy ;) |
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| 20:26:54 | <ski> | i'd only use "augend","addend", when there's a clear difference between the "absolute amount", and the "relative amount" added to it |
| 20:27:22 | <ski> | (e.g. adding a vector to a point. or adding a temperature difference to an absolute temperature, &c.) |
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| 21:32:32 | <jackdk> | Conduit question: I have a ConduitT () ByteString m r representing a large file, and I want to process it in chunks, where each chunk is between some minimum and maximum (constant) number of bytes. I feel like I would want to write a function like `chunksBetween :: Monad m => Integer -> Integer -> ConduitT i ByteString m r -> ConduitT i (ConduitT i ByteString m ()) m r` that streams smoothly from the input conduit. |
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| 21:33:53 | <maerwald> | jackdk: too bad you're not using streamly :D |
| 21:34:02 | <maerwald> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/streamly-0.8.0/docs/Streamly-Prelude.html#v:chunksOf |
| 21:34:11 | <jackdk> | Pipes appears to have this operator in `pipes-group`, as some kind of crazy lens that lets you look at it as a `FreeT` or something, and I can't make heads or tails of it. Streaming looks like it could give you a `Stream (Of (Stream (Of o))`, which is what's driving my intuitions about where I want conduit to go. The other option would be conduit's connect-and-resume `SealedConduit` stuff, but the library I'm using only accepts a conduit |
| 21:35:20 | <maerwald> | jackdk: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/conduit-1.3.4.2/docs/Data-Conduit-Combinators.html#v:chunksOfE |
| 21:35:22 | <maerwald> | ? |
| 21:38:32 | <juri_> | hmm. if you've got a test suite written using quickcheck and `shouldbe` from hunit, is there a way, when a test is falsifiable, to see the sets of values that didn't fail? |
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| 21:41:52 | <jackdk> | maerwald: right, now the full hardmode context. I'm helping Axman6 with amazonka-s3-streaming. The high-level goal: create a multipart upload in S3, and perform upload part requests such that each chunk is between some minimum and maximum size. amazonka can accept a conduit describing the body to upload. This makes me think about generating a stream of conduits, where each one streams from the outer conduit with minimal rechunking |
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| 21:43:30 | <maerwald> | multipart upload works easier from the frontend side :p |
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| 21:43:44 | <jackdk> | maerwald: ? |
| 21:43:58 | <maerwald> | yep, you can do multipart upload from the fronted to S3 |
| 21:44:13 | <maerwald> | with a tokenish link |
| 21:44:19 | <maerwald> | I forgot the details |
| 21:44:21 | <jackdk> | I mean sure, but also this library is a tool that is useful to people |
| 21:44:26 | <maerwald> | yeah sure |
| 21:44:48 | <maerwald> | but it's less efficient, in a way |
| 21:45:02 | <maerwald> | because you stream to the backend and then from the backend to S3 |
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| 21:45:42 | <jackdk> | that's only if amazonka-s3-streaming is used in the context of a webapp, no? |
| 21:45:48 | <maerwald> | yeah |
| 21:46:05 | <jackdk> | we want minimal unnecessary rechunking at the S3 multipart upload level (so like if we're just under our target part size, just throw the next chunk in - don't split it), and also once the first part is uploaded, we need to be able to send the remainder of the conduit to the next part |
| 21:46:24 | <jackdk> | and do that without buffering an entire part's worth of chunks |
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| 21:47:07 | <maerwald> | yeah, I don't think that exists... there's only chunksOfE and chunksOfExactlyE |
| 21:48:01 | <jackdk> | juri_: I don't use quickcheck but is there a setting that controls general test verbosity? I wonder if the `shouldbe` stuff is a red herring? |
| 21:48:21 | <maerwald> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/conduit-1.3.4.2/docs/src/Data.Conduit.Combinators.html#chunksOfE |
| 21:48:27 | <maerwald> | but you can probably just leverage the code |
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| 21:54:30 | <jackdk> | right, but there are two levels of grouping going on here - I want to group the ByteStrings in such a way that I send between minPartSize and maxPartSize to each amazonka upload-part request. Then within each part, I want to emit at least minChunkSize chunks |
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| 21:55:57 | <jackdk> | and do this two-level grouping without buffering each part, and with a minimum of reallocations |
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| 22:05:43 | <maerwald> | jackdk: do you have a link to the ticket/PR? |
| 22:06:17 | <jackdk> | there isn't one yet, Axman6 and I have been hashing it out 1-1 |
| 22:06:42 | <jackdk> | (chunkedbody uploads have been broken in amazonka for a while anyway, so this stream grouping stuff hasn't even been an option yet) |
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| 22:07:14 | <maerwald> | that's why I went with frontend-side uploads back when I needed that |
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| 22:10:49 | <maerwald> | https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSJavaScriptSDK/latest/AWS/S3.html#createPresignedPost-property |
| 22:10:52 | <maerwald> | that one |
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| 23:03:57 | <Axman6> | To be clear, I am also ok with just storing data in memory in a Builder and writing it out - the amount of data in memory should be bounded (though might have some issues if someone maliciously sends very large bytestring - someone like jackdk) |
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| 23:19:20 | <Axman6> | (To be more clear, jackdk is not (necessarily) malicious, but he did think about this possibly being a problem) |
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| 23:37:28 | <jackdk> | It's more that I am always willing to troll Axman6 |
| 23:37:59 | <Axman6> | chaotic good |
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| 23:38:23 | <jackdk> | but also that the maximum size of a multipart upload part is 5GB, and if we could stream parts of that size rather than buffer 5GB, that'd be grand |
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| 23:49:46 | <Axman6> | yeah - need to add something to cap that chunksize too... |
| 23:50:36 | <Axman6> | so... a lot of these problems could be fixed with threads and channels potentially |
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| 23:52:14 | <Axman6> | stream in bytestring chunks, fork a thread for each upload chunk when needed then push chunks into the channel. in the thread, making a conduit which reads from the channel is pretty easy and would allow concurrent upload and input. at the moment they're interleaved which isn't ideal |
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| 23:52:44 | <Axman6> | if I bound the size of the channel then it should provide the appropriate backpressure to prevent filling up ram if something going wrong |
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