Logs on 2021-11-09 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:11:10 | <Inst> | YESSS! |
| 00:11:17 | <Inst> | Got TinyFileDialogs isntalled via Cabal! |
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| 00:16:54 | <energizer> | i feel like pattern matching is somehow the opposite of multiple dispatch. is there something i can read about their relationship? |
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| 00:19:47 | <geekosaur> | pattern matching is multiple dispatch on structure as opposed to type. this said, there are languages which offer pattern matching which can match on multiple types |
| 00:20:05 | <geekosaur> | while still matching on structure |
| 00:21:53 | <geekosaur> | so they're only "opposites" if you take a restrictive view of "multiple dispatch", granting that many languages do take such a restrictive view |
| 00:22:22 | <energizer> | i usually think of multiple dispatch as open/extensible and pattern matching as closed |
| 00:23:23 | <geekosaur> | this again depends on the language, I think. Haskell's pattern matching is closed |
| 00:24:30 | <hpc> | there's pattern matching on Either, if you squint a bit |
| 00:24:36 | <geekosaur> | and this is considered something of a feature, since it means the compiler will at least warn you if you refactor to add a new case to a structured value / ADT and you miss a spot where it needs to be added |
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| 00:27:38 | <geekosaur> | (and if you want extensible multiple dispatch, Haskell has typeclasses. they don't do pattern matching in the Haskell sense, though, since they dispatch on types, not values) |
| 00:28:34 | <energizer> | i guess i should be asking in #idris but presumably there's dependent-typeclass dispatch or something |
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| 00:33:53 | <unit73e> | finally managed to make aeson do what I wanted |
| 00:33:53 | <sm> | I think.. it was not supposed to be such an achievement.. :) |
| 00:33:54 | <sm> | that feeling of having beat a final boss when you get a haskell package installed.. |
| 00:34:40 | <unit73e> | it was embarasingly simple... `decodeFileStrict f :: IO (Maybe (KM.KeyMap Sprite))` |
| 00:34:52 | <unit73e> | I wanted the map because the keys aren't fixed |
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| 00:35:47 | <unit73e> | I had to read the source code of aeson to figure that out lol... |
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| 01:08:58 | <yin> | /f encding |
| 01:24:37 | <danso> | is there no equivalent to the TypeOperators extension for data constructors? |
| 01:25:57 | <danso> | meaning there's no way to define something like `data T a b = ^^ a | ?? b |
| 01:26:13 | <danso> | ` |
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| 01:26:35 | <yin> | that wuld be confusing |
| 01:26:44 | <yin> | why would you want that? |
| 01:27:10 | <danso> | i can't find anything about it, but `(:)` is a type constructor operator |
| 01:28:11 | <yin> | it's infix |
| 01:28:51 | <yin> | the language supports infix data constructors starting with the character ':' |
| 01:29:26 | <danso> | i just realized i can do it using the () syntax ._. |
| 01:29:27 | <danso> | thanks anyway |
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| 01:29:59 | <danso> | oh, it only allows ':'? why is that? |
| 01:31:03 | <yin> | convention. it's the syntax rule |
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| 01:40:47 | <yin> | think of ':' as an uppercase symbol. normal function names can't start with it |
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| 01:41:36 | <yin> | @def (:+) x y = x + y |
| 01:41:36 | <lambdabot> | .L.hs:164:12: error: |
| 01:41:36 | <lambdabot> | Ambiguous occurrence ‘x’ |
| 01:41:36 | <lambdabot> | It could refer to |
| 01:41:39 | <geekosaur> | basically, pattern matches need a way to distinguish between constructors and value bindings. they use case for that, but symbols don't have case, so prefix : is treated as an "uppercase" symbol character |
| 01:41:50 | <monochrom> | Alphabetical data constructors begin with a capital letter. Symbolic data constructors begin with a colon. This helps the grammar to know that "f t = ..." and "x %%% y = ..." are defining functions f and (%%%), "F t = ..." and "x :% y = ..." are defining t, x, y using pattern matching. |
| 01:42:01 | yin | sigh |
| 01:42:04 | <yin> | @undef |
| 01:42:04 | <lambdabot> | Undefined. |
| 01:42:08 | <yin> | @def (:+) x y = x + y |
| 01:42:09 | <lambdabot> | .L.hs:151:12: error: |
| 01:42:09 | <lambdabot> | Ambiguous occurrence ‘x’ |
| 01:42:09 | <lambdabot> | It could refer to |
| 01:42:23 | <yin> | ^ what is happening here? what is this error? |
| 01:42:27 | <monochrom> | It could refer to x::Expr :) |
| 01:42:33 | <geekosaur> | ^ |
| 01:43:00 | <monochrom> | And like I said "(:+) t u = ..." defines t and u, not (:+) |
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| 01:43:13 | <monochrom> | To define (:+), please start with "data" :) |
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| 01:46:07 | <yin> | why can't anything be not confusing? |
| 01:46:20 | <monochrom> | What is confusing? |
| 01:47:20 | <yin> | explaining things in haskell seem to be harder than understanding them sometimes. i'm just sleepy... |
| 01:48:08 | <dsal> | Haha. That's partially because it usually requires explaining things less precisely while still being clear. |
| 01:48:54 | <monochrom> | Really, it can cut both ways, depending on how you mean by "explain" and by "understand". |
| 01:49:51 | <yin> | monochrom: you are proving my point :D |
| 01:50:03 | <monochrom> | Sometimes I define "explain" to just mean "see, here are the axioms", "understand" to mean "but have you seen all theorems that follow from the axioms?". In that case, understanding is harder. |
| 01:50:56 | <monochrom> | Some other times, I define "understand" to mean "I've learned this stuff", "explain" to mean "now I have to teach this stuff to other people". Clearly, teaching is harder. |
| 01:52:16 | <yin> | too many asterisks |
| 01:52:41 | <monochrom> | "My God, it's full of stars"? :) |
| 01:54:27 | <monochrom> | Anyway, lambdabot has loaded up the simple-reflect package, which defines x to support this kind of explanations: |
| 01:54:33 | <monochrom> | > foldr f a [x, y, z] |
| 01:54:35 | <lambdabot> | f x (f y (f z a)) |
| 01:55:03 | <yin> | i *think* i remember ghci r lambdabt quoting 2001 with the snarky remarks enabled |
| 01:55:05 | <monochrom> | So in fact it defines all of a to z. |
| 01:55:43 | <geekosaur> | ghci doesnn't. some lambdabot deatures use bsd's insults mode which includes lots of snarky remarks |
| 01:56:00 | <geekosaur> | *features |
| 01:56:00 | <yin> | that must've been it |
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| 01:56:29 | <geekosaur> | like if you query the quote db and it doesn't find a match |
| 01:56:40 | <monochrom> | I think @src has insults |
| 01:56:47 | <monochrom> | @src idd |
| 01:56:47 | <lambdabot> | Source not found. I've seen penguins that can type better than that. |
| 01:56:56 | <yin> | ^there you go |
| 01:57:10 | <monochrom> | Ah yeah @quote too |
| 01:57:14 | <monochrom> | @quote xyk |
| 01:57:14 | <lambdabot> | No quotes match. You untyped fool! |
| 01:58:01 | <yin> | it risks offending strict types |
| 01:58:43 | <monochrom> | Oh w00t simple-reflect also has... |
| 01:58:44 | <monochrom> | > foldr (⊗) z [a,b,c] |
| 01:58:46 | <lambdabot> | a ⊗ (b ⊗ (c ⊗ z)) |
| 01:59:13 | <monochrom> | The complete list is at https://hackage.haskell.org/package/simple-reflect-0.3.3/docs/Debug-SimpleReflect-Vars.html |
| 02:00:08 | <monochrom> | Nice debate: Does it abuse Show? >:) |
| 02:00:31 | <monochrom> | err, s/Nice/Next/ ! Although I guess either way works. |
| 02:00:34 | <danso> | i appreciate the thoughtful answers, thanks :^) |
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| 04:04:52 | <jackdk> | `fmap :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b` is like a "one to one" map from `a` to `b`; `mapMaybe :: Filterable f => (a -> Maybe b) -> f a -> f b` maps "one to zero or one"; is there a class that does `(a -> [b]) -> f a -> f b`? |
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| 04:28:04 | <c_wraith> | jackdk: I can't imagine many instances for that. lists and multimaps, and...? |
| 04:29:35 | <dsal> | :t foldMap |
| 04:29:36 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t, Monoid m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m |
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| 04:36:08 | <awpr> | an obstacle to that particular type is: how would you know how to organize the list elements into the structure of `m`? anything with more structure than a plain list would have to "make up" that extra structure |
| 04:36:44 | <awpr> | one natural way to address that is: change it so that the inner list is already `m b` instead. and then what you have is `Monad` |
| 04:37:59 | <awpr> | trees with values only at the leaves can have that kind of `Monad` instance: find a leaf value, apply a function, and graft the resulting tree in place of the leaf |
| 04:39:54 | <dsal> | I'm kind of guessing as to how close to that we need to get. |
| 04:40:34 | <dsal> | jackdk: Have you looked into recursion-schemes at all? That looks like an anamorphism. |
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| 05:02:03 | <angela> | hello |
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| 05:56:15 | <Inst> | [exa] |
| 05:56:23 | <Inst> | problem solved courtesy Functional Programming Discord |
| 05:56:35 | <Inst> | tinyfiledialogs in Hackage does the job I was looking for |
| 05:56:48 | <Inst> | and it calls Windows native dialogs, even though TFD is obsolete |
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| 06:08:22 | <dsal> | I'm proud of my Windows ignorance. |
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| 06:20:06 | <kronicmage> | Speaking of recursion schemes, is dynamic programming at all ergonomic using them? I've been experimenting for a while and have yet to find a good way |
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| 06:50:11 | <Inst> | dsal: guess what? |
| 06:50:18 | <Inst> | Chrome OS is likely going to end up murdering Windows sooner or later |
| 06:50:20 | <Inst> | market share went up |
| 06:50:28 | <Inst> | in other news, does anyone know how to get Stack to install a package globally? |
| 06:50:38 | <Inst> | I know this is typically not a good idea due to dependency hell |
| 06:52:01 | <dsal> | Inst: stack install can do that, I think, but I've not done it because why would you? |
| 06:52:17 | <Inst> | dsal: because I'm dumb, or rather I'm teaching someone else how to be dumb |
| 06:52:41 | <Inst> | and just flashing a single, small package in is likely not going to create issues |
| 06:52:52 | <Inst> | it's simpler than teaching them cabal before they know what recursion is |
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| 06:54:20 | <dsal> | `stack new` is a good first step |
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| 07:05:56 | <Inst> | creates new project |
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| 07:06:52 | jinsun__ | is now known as jinsun |
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| 07:34:24 | <Inst> | more realistically |
| 07:34:33 | <Inst> | how do i get stack to point to a different GHC folder? |
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| 08:14:05 | <kuribas> | There is no way to make a formal specification, and proof that the implementation is conform it, without fancy types or dependent types, right? |
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| 08:14:10 | <kuribas> | like Servant for example. |
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| 08:21:54 | <energizer> | is there a word for taking a complicated type describing a collection of values with various properties and dumbing down the type into "list of float"? |
| 08:22:21 | <lortabac> | kuribas: maybe an alternative would be to keep the types of the implementation simple and prove correctness extrinsically with something like Liquid Haskell |
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| 08:22:26 | <energizer> | (or some other dumb type) |
| 08:22:37 | <lortabac> | energizer: unrefine? |
| 08:22:53 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: The closest thing I know of is coq + program extraction. |
| 08:22:56 | <kuribas> | energizer: evaluate? calculate? |
| 08:23:26 | <kuribas> | lortabac: define correctness. |
| 08:23:41 | <dminuoso> | Also dont forget tests. |
| 08:23:43 | <lortabac> | kuribas: you have already given the definition :P |
| 08:24:03 | <lortabac> | "a proof that the implementation is conform to the specification" |
| 08:24:06 | <dminuoso> | Especially with quichcheck or even just unit tests, these can simple serve as formal specifying properties that you can test by simply running the test suite. |
| 08:24:11 | <kuribas> | lortabac: I wouldn't call that "correctness". The word is so much overloaded. |
| 08:24:25 | <dminuoso> | Say where you specify associativity of an operator to hold, you can simply describe that with quickcheck. |
| 08:24:48 | <lortabac> | kuribas: ok I didn't want to type that long sentence |
| 08:25:04 | <kuribas> | lortabac: I prefer "conform" or "consistent". |
| 08:26:04 | <kuribas> | would you say that haskell (without other tools), isn't really suited for this purpose? |
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| 08:26:57 | <lortabac> | what I wanted to say is: whatever you can prove intrinsically with fancy types, (I think) you can prove it extrinsically and move the complexity from the implementation to the proof |
| 08:27:21 | <lortabac> | I don't know whether this is always possible |
| 08:28:36 | <lortabac> | think of the various lists-with-proofs, like sized-vectors, fin etc., they all require separate implementations |
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| 08:29:17 | <kuribas> | lortabac: you mean like an external specification, and some test suite? |
| 08:29:25 | <lortabac> | whereas if you use plain lists you might be able to move the same proofs to Liquid Haskell |
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| 08:31:13 | <kuribas> | lortabac: liquid haskell seems to me even more fancy than type level extensions. |
| 08:31:44 | <kuribas> | There is no garantee it will support all ghc features at any time, is there? |
| 08:31:47 | <lortabac> | yes, but the complexity is not in the implementation, you can delete all the proofs and the code will still work |
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| 08:32:33 | <lortabac> | whereas if you use for ex. Vec, you are stuck with it |
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| 08:33:06 | <kuribas> | I see your point. I think I'd prefer tests or property tests in that case, as dminuoso suggested. |
| 08:33:20 | <kuribas> | There are no really "proof", but can be close to proofs. |
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| 08:33:39 | <lortabac> | fair point, tests are probably the best thing we have at the moment |
| 08:33:57 | <kuribas> | I guess I underestimate the usefulness of tests which can keep the code simple. |
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| 08:36:06 | <kuribas> | And garantee consistency at the same time. |
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| 08:38:58 | <lortabac> | regarding Liquid Haskell, IIRC it doesn't really care about the various GHC features since it works on Core (memories from Zurihac ~2018, so I might be wrong) |
| 08:39:14 | <kuribas> | Does core retain types? |
| 08:39:53 | <lortabac> | yes, Core is typed |
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| 09:31:24 | <DigitalKiwi> | cc. Hecate; #haskell-offtopic; hecate never made me a good artists CRM so i don't know all of the infos anymore :( |
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| 10:14:03 | <cads> | hey is there any writing done on how to make haskell "read like prose", how to simplify poorly written haskell, or how to structure haskell so that it is readable for people with a fundamentally low ability to read and process math symbols? |
| 10:15:09 | <cads> | in the OOP world we have uncle bob and the clean coding practice, and there are even specific clean architectures that are supposed to make code readable and extensible |
| 10:15:30 | <cads> | is there an uncle bob of haskell? |
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| 10:15:42 | <dminuoso> | cads: I dont believe in "clean coding practice" |
| 10:15:53 | <dminuoso> | It presumes that there's some universal communicatable silver bullet in how to write code. |
| 10:16:45 | <dminuoso> | Writing code that communicates well is one of the key skills you develop with years of expertise |
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| 10:18:19 | <cads> | dminuoso, that is just an excuses to not answer my question, lol |
| 10:18:34 | <dminuoso> | It's similar to how authors become good. They practice writing and they read what others do. |
| 10:19:42 | <cads> | yeah, but I can point you to a book called How to Write a Mystery which will give you a decade's head start on being a mystery writer, simply by informing you the different ways of writing mysteries, which you may not be aware of |
| 10:20:06 | <dminuoso> | Mmm, well Im not aware of any such books about Haskell |
| 10:20:17 | <dminuoso> | And given the relatively low popularity, I dont think such a specialized book that you're asking for exists. |
| 10:20:45 | <cads> | likewise, I would not expect a coder to spontaneously manifest a great library of OOP patterns without first reading gang of four |
| 10:20:49 | <dminuoso> | Refactoring poorly written code into readable code is probably highly individual based on how you perceive code and your target audience |
| 10:21:10 | <dminuoso> | cads: OOP patterns is something *significaly* different from communicatable code. |
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| 10:21:38 | <dminuoso> | GoF patterns are not grand achievements and the ideal, they are rather dirty workarounds to solve simple problems in poor languages. |
| 10:21:55 | <dminuoso> | They have become somewhat of a religious item |
| 10:21:58 | <dminuoso> | For reasons that are beyond me |
| 10:22:11 | <cads> | yeah, actually reading the book I am struck by how hack to solutions seem, and how applicatives can do most of this stuff nowadays |
| 10:22:21 | <cads> | how hacky the solution seems* |
| 10:22:29 | <tromp> | does anyone know if ghcup plays nice with ihp ? |
| 10:23:27 | <tromp> | does ihp try to install its own ghc? |
| 10:24:45 | <lortabac> | dminuoso: they are hacky but they are a lingua franca |
| 10:24:51 | <dminuoso> | cads: Consider something like "Factory pattern". What they dub a "pattern" with a lot of moving internal parts, I simply call a function. Apply it to some argument, get something back. |
| 10:24:53 | <dminuoso> | Done. |
| 10:25:24 | <lortabac> | instead of everybody reinventing their own dirty hacks, we all use the same ones and can understand each other's code better |
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| 10:25:54 | <lortabac> | not saying is a good state of things, I'm just trying to explain why they are popular |
| 10:27:10 | <cads> | dminuoso, what is a factory good for? |
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| 10:31:47 | <energizer> | https://hackage.haskell.org/packages/top what does the "Downloads" column mean? it can't be "total downloads ever" can it? |
| 10:33:51 | <cads> | lortabac, I get the frustration with the cult mentality around the original GoF pattern. It's 25 years old, and there is no clear successor. So folks recommending GoF are recommending what may well be a kind of dead end in software engineering. |
| 10:37:34 | <dminuoso> | cads: Much of it is also patterns revolving around very constrained languages |
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| 10:43:40 | <cads> | dminuoso, I think there are some good modern patterns, for example, View/Viewmodel <-> Interactor <-> Respository. I think this model is only about a decade old. But it is relevant - for example, it has become the foundation for android apps. |
| 10:44:06 | <dminuoso> | Sure, I dont mind general architectural design styles |
| 10:44:06 | <cads> | and I believe lenses can accomplish basically the same thing, but I haven't seen anyone say so |
| 10:44:46 | <dminuoso> | energizer: Mmm, judging from the numbers it seems *roughly* to be the past 30 days |
| 10:44:52 | <dminuoso> | Or perhaps a 30 days average |
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| 10:45:11 | <dminuoso> | No it is the past 30 days exactly |
| 10:45:14 | <dminuoso> | Misread |
| 10:46:38 | <cads> | For reference, here is uncle bob's post announcing the clean architecture https://blog.cleancoder.com/uncle-bob/2012/08/13/the-clean-architecture.html |
| 10:47:02 | <Franciman> | uncle bob is fun |
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| 10:48:03 | <cads> | I don't think it's trying to be a "universal silver bullet for communicatable code" either... it just managed solve scaling problems that, if I were to solve them the naive way, would result in a totally awful an difficult to understand code |
| 10:49:28 | <cads> | I suppose that to gain the same kind of confidence with my solutions in haskell, I should dig into papers |
| 10:50:22 | <dminuoso> | cads: The only general piece of advice I have: |
| 10:50:28 | <dminuoso> | You cant have enough bindings. |
| 10:51:41 | <dminuoso> | By creating more bindings, you can provide both smaller representations, as well as various semantic abstractions |
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| 10:55:39 | <cads> | Lol, there are no writings about how to remediate stinky haskell code. Every haskell coder knows their code reeks of pure roses. And may God help you if you say otherwise! |
| 10:56:34 | <dminuoso> | Uh, I have written many poor lines of code. |
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| 10:57:30 | <cads> | yeah, but do you want to clean them up? |
| 10:58:33 | <cads> | I will keep compiling references on haskell code smells and how to remediate them. If you think of anything, let me know! |
| 10:58:52 | <dminuoso> | Yes, sometimes I have the time to do it, othertimes I dont |
| 11:00:32 | <cads> | dminuoso, here's an example of an article claiming /descriptive variable names/ are a code smell in haskell. I think you'll enjoy it for its zaniness, and I'd be curious if you agree with the final conclusion! file:///home/m/Zotero/storage/YI3V6P9L/insufficiently-polymorphic.html |
| 11:00:35 | <cads> | oops |
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| 11:00:56 | <cads> | https://degoes.net/articles/insufficiently-polymorphic |
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| 11:04:26 | <dminuoso> | cads: Im not really interested in discussing that article. |
| 11:05:00 | <cads> | what's to discuss? It's wrong, lol. |
| 11:05:13 | <dminuoso> | My issue with it is deeper than that |
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| 11:10:26 | <dminuoso> | It's just one of those many typical blog articles people put out there for publicity. It's poorly written with non-motivating example, some random claims with poor reasoning.. |
| 11:11:03 | <cads> | yeah, I want to yell at john for the example being bullshit, but I am physically scared of him |
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| 11:14:07 | <cads> | I feel like the article would be good if the suggested refactoring - "Extract Monomorphism" - were really desribed with enough detail |
| 11:15:55 | <cads> | this sort of "Problem -> Refactoring Method -> Solution" triples are really all we can hope for when learning about a code smell. Not universal principle, but a useful option in the toolbelt. I feel a dearth of that sort of support in haskell |
| 11:16:25 | <cads> | but I guess I should be the solution I wanna see, and use haskell more |
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| 12:01:14 | <maerwald> | "Monomorphic code is much more likely to be incorrect than polymorphic code" |
| 12:01:16 | <maerwald> | ahahaha |
| 12:01:26 | <maerwald> | has he ever used lens? |
| 12:01:57 | <maerwald> | the gap between "yeah, it compiles" and "yeah, it actually does what I think it does" |
| 12:02:44 | geekosaur | thinks they're reaching for "properly typed code is much more likely to be correct" and missed by quite a margin |
| 12:03:05 | <geekosaur> | but still this is not someone I want on my team |
| 12:03:09 | <maerwald> | or classes so abstract that knowing their laws gives you zero help with understanding what they *actually do* in this context |
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| 12:04:27 | <lortabac> | I think his claim is true if we are only talking about parametric polymorphism |
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| 12:04:49 | <cads> | geekosaur, forget team. This is someone that you could have /as your CEO/. |
| 12:05:14 | <geekosaur> | that's still my team in some sense. and I'd be looking for a way out |
| 12:05:41 | <cads> | I would be lifting weights, because gains is the only way to earn a meathead's respect. |
| 12:06:13 | <cads> | once you have greater gains you can tell them the idea is ludicrous |
| 12:06:28 | cads | supposes that is still a toxic dynamic |
| 12:06:28 | <geekosaur> | not interested in a meathead's respect tbh |
| 12:07:03 | <maerwald> | why did this turn into ad hominem? |
| 12:07:13 | <cads> | sorry |
| 12:07:32 | <maerwald> | "Whether in OOP or FP, the effect is the same: making the code more polymorphic reduces the space of possible implementations." |
| 12:07:39 | <maerwald> | that's not entirely false |
| 12:08:04 | <maerwald> | but really hard to generalize |
| 12:08:41 | <maerwald> | I'm writing a backend and I want my code actual things... you can't have all polymorphic functions. You need some data in the end. |
| 12:11:50 | <maerwald> | "In other words, if your method only needs to know if a thing is a Shape, then don’t also require it to be a Hexagon (a subtype of Shape)." |
| 12:12:11 | <maerwald> | seems like there's a small truth that was simply over-marketed with clickbait |
| 12:12:52 | <maerwald> | your fairly standard blog post |
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| 13:51:32 | <yin> | why isn't `f \x -> y` parsed as `f (\x -> y` ? |
| 13:51:49 | <yin> | why isn't `f \x -> y` parsed as `f (\x -> y)` ? *correction |
| 13:52:24 | <geekosaur> | I think it is with BlockArguments? |
| 13:52:44 | <geekosaur> | don't recall how it gets parsed without |
| 13:53:11 | <dminuoso> | It doesn't get parsed at all |
| 13:53:45 | <yin> | i don't see ambiguity |
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| 13:53:57 | <dminuoso> | yin: Look at the grammar difference in https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/blob/master/proposals/0090-block-arguments.rst |
| 13:55:14 | <dminuoso> | That is: https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/blob/master/proposals/0090-block-arguments.rst#proposed-change-specification |
| 13:55:40 | <yin> | i see |
| 13:56:11 | <yin> | what a mess |
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| 13:57:30 | <gaff> | i have some code at https://paste.ofcode.org/DCiTkXtTH7YHPbcY97b5Bd |
| 13:58:01 | <gaff> | i would like to know how `readsPrec` in the code works -- it seems to be infinitely recursive |
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| 14:02:23 | <geekosaur> | note that the r in each case is different because of the lambda binding |
| 14:02:46 | <geekosaur> | so readsPrec is polymorphically recursive and will eventually bottom out at a leaf |
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| 14:03:14 | <geekosaur> | (that code is kinda unfortunate, reusing bindings like that is fairly confusing) |
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| 14:04:32 | <geekosaur> | so r is successively an entire tree node, then the left subtree, then the right subtree, the latter two captured by lambda bindings |
| 14:04:48 | <gaff> | geekosaur: yeah, very confusing ... what do you mean by "reusing the binding"? i didn't understand ... |
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| 14:04:54 | <yin> | what's the reason for Control.Monad.State not exporting the State data constructor, and providing instead the functino state :: (s -> (a,s)) -> State s a ? |
| 14:04:57 | <geekosaur> | calling them all "r" |
| 14:05:07 | <gaff> | oh ok |
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| 14:05:29 | <geekosaur> | yin, State is not a data constructor, it's an alias for StateT s Identity |
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| 14:06:11 | <geekosaur> | which can't be used to construct a new State, so we need the function state. or a bidirectional pattern binding, which I think is being considered for later releases? |
| 14:06:27 | <yin> | ah i see. i was outdated |
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| 14:07:06 | <geekosaur> | yeh, the data constructor was form mtl1 days |
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| 14:07:13 | <geekosaur> | *from |
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| 14:11:43 | <geekosaur> | hm, actually I misspoke because they're all Tree nodes, so it's not polymorphic |
| 14:11:53 | <geekosaur> | they're just different nodes |
| 14:12:07 | <geekosaur> | it's still needlessly confusing |
| 14:12:49 | <yin> | they're all what now? |
| 14:13:06 | <geekosaur> | that was about gaff's question, not yours |
| 14:13:14 | <geekosaur> | sorry |
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| 14:15:55 | <gaff> | geekosaur: yeah, i was wondering about what you said about being polymorphic |
| 14:16:08 | <yin> | :) |
| 14:16:23 | <geekosaur> | there should still be a polymorphic use since there are presumably values involved somewhere, not just tree nodes |
| 14:16:32 | <gaff> | i think the recursion convergence happens in the application of `readParen` |
| 14:16:35 | <geekosaur> | but those aren't polymorphic |
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| 14:17:34 | <gaff> | my concern was -- how does `readsPrec` converge? |
| 14:18:04 | <gaff> | i think that happens in the code for `readParen` |
| 14:18:10 | <geekosaur> | each subsidiary use of readsPrec is reading a different thing, either another tree node or a value |
| 14:19:01 | <gaff> | it is a very confusing code -- i wouldn't write it this way if i could |
| 14:19:38 | <gaff> | the code for readParen is @ https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/8.4.2/docs/html/libraries/base-4.11.1.0/src/GHC.Read.html |
| 14:19:42 | <geekosaur> | outer_r = [(] left_subtree_r :^: right_subtree_r [)] |
| 14:19:49 | <gaff> | ok |
| 14:20:21 | <geekosaur> | where left_subtree_r and right_subtree_r may be another split Tree node or a Leaf with a value attached, as I read it |
| 14:20:41 | <gaff> | correct |
| 14:20:47 | <geekosaur> | the code should really have used something like t, lt,k rt to distinguish instead of calling them all r |
| 14:21:00 | <geekosaur> | s/lt,k/lt,/ |
| 14:22:19 | <geekosaur> | so eventually readsPrec will bottom out at a Leaf node and invoke itself one more time to read the value (this is the polymorphic one) |
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| 14:23:07 | <gaff> | ok |
| 14:23:08 | <geekosaur> | of course it may not actually bottom out there, since the values may be lists or even new Trees |
| 14:23:23 | <geekosaur> | but eventually it will bottom out |
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| 14:23:39 | <gaff> | exactly, otherwise you couldn't define a Tree |
| 14:23:49 | <gaff> | it has to bottom out |
| 14:26:46 | <geekosaur> | it may be easier to follow what's going on by looking at how lists work, since it's only recursive once instead of twice |
| 14:27:03 | <geekosaur> | each node of a [a] is (a : [a]) |
| 14:27:25 | <gaff> | geekosaur: yea, i know ... but this is the code given in the haskell report 2010, so i wanted to understand it |
| 14:27:28 | <geekosaur> | and you bottom out when the value on the right of the (:) is [] |
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| 14:28:12 | <gaff> | also, writing a custom `readsPrec` is not that easy, i think |
| 14:28:39 | <geekosaur> | it's fairly mechanical, actually. just a fair amount of work, which is why we make the compiler do it for us |
| 14:28:51 | <gaff> | ok |
| 14:28:52 | <geekosaur> | deriving Read wouldn't work if it were actually hard |
| 14:29:15 | <gaff> | just like `Show`, you mean? |
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| 14:29:55 | <gaff> | writing a custom showsPrec is not hard |
| 14:30:10 | <geekosaur> | right |
| 14:30:21 | <gaff> | of course, you can derive `Show` as well |
| 14:30:24 | <geekosaur> | readsPrec is a little more work, but not that much more |
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| 14:30:30 | <gaff> | correct |
| 14:31:04 | <geekosaur> | more fiddly but it's all mechanical to the point that the Report specifies how the compiler should do it (well, that the compiler should do something equivalent to it) |
| 14:31:25 | <gaff> | yeah ... |
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| 14:31:44 | <f-a> | when I compile a program and run it on another machine I get: «error while loading shared libraries: libffi.so.7: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory». Is there a way to catch this error? I would like if possible to print a more friendly version for people who are less used to such errors. |
| 14:31:54 | <gaff> | geekosaur: how long have you been working with haskell? you seem to know a lot :) |
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| 14:32:49 | <geekosaur> | 2007 |
| 14:33:06 | <gaff> | wow ... that's a really long time :) |
| 14:33:40 | <gaff> | it's a beautiful language |
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| 14:34:16 | <geekosaur> | f-a, that's output by the shared object loader before your program even runs. there are some environment variables you can set to control what the loader does (see ld.so(8) on linux) but afaik the only way to catch them is a wrapper script |
| 14:34:27 | <gaff> | and the people in it, unlike some of the other places, really come to haskell because of its beauty ... they just love it ... and i like that |
| 14:35:25 | <f-a> | argh, that is less than optimal geekosaur (but better than nothing, I guess) |
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| 14:35:43 | <geekosaur> | (I'm oversimplifying a little bit, your program uses ld.so as its "interpreter", but no code you write can intercept what ld.so does) |
| 14:35:53 | <gaff> | geekosaur: thanks a bunch. i will look into the code more with your ideas ... and if there some things unclear i will get back here |
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| 15:42:21 | <yin> | i don't like transformers |
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| 15:42:57 | <yin> | /vent |
| 15:49:29 | <sshine> | how do you transmit electric current between circuits, then? |
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| 15:54:49 | <dminuoso> | With a pair of cables? |
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| 15:58:16 | <kuribas> | with copper traces. |
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| 15:58:59 | <dminuoso> | Also, you can use capacitors to achieve the same effect! |
| 15:59:05 | <dminuoso> | (See capacitive power supplies) |
| 15:59:27 | <kuribas> | transformers provide impedance matching |
| 16:01:09 | <maerwald> | I also don't like them. They're clunky and have no precise semantics. You always reason about them operationally, from experience and pitfalls (e.g. MonadFail behavior in ExceptT). |
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| 16:02:47 | <dsal> | yin: there are lots of effect systems because everyone dislikes each of them. |
| 16:03:25 | <dsal> | My least favorite is "all functions are in IO" which seems to be required in every other programming language. |
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| 16:04:15 | <maerwald> | effects systems just shift the problem to the interpreter... now you can't reason about anything, because you don't know what interpreter is run when looking at a function? |
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| 16:13:09 | <maerwald> | imagine file system effects as a DSL... even something seemingly simple as 'copyFile' or 'deleteFile' can have 10 different implementations. Differences in atomicity, error handling, recursion (cp -r) etc etc |
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| 16:15:37 | <dolio> | "All functions are in IO" isn't even a good effect system. |
| 16:15:52 | <maerwald> | it's honest though |
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| 16:34:22 | <monochrom> | I am a formal methods person. I like precise semantics. But as much as I do that, I recognize that most programmers don't care. |
| 16:35:02 | <dolio> | The problem isn't a lack of precision. |
| 16:35:05 | <monochrom> | They use good-enough approximate models all the time. Not just for MonadState. For everything. For C. For jquery. |
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| 16:36:54 | <dolio> | It's the same problem as the mindset of only thinking about types as catching errors. |
| 16:37:25 | <monochrom> | I know how to give MonadState a precise semantics. There is already a paper doing that, to (MonadState s m) => ... alone. I know what it is missing, the usual frame problem of what happens if you have instead (MonadState s m, MonadWriter w m) => .... I know how to use the usual solutions to the frame problem to solve that. It can all be done. |
| 16:37:53 | <monochrom> | But I don't anticipate that users will actually value that. |
| 16:38:27 | <maerwald> | Well, here's the problem: not everything is precise (filesystems, networks, ...). I feel `IO` captures this pretty well, by saying "you have to apply operational reasoning right now". I wonder if we could make this distinction better somehow, but probably not |
| 16:38:27 | <dolio> | Monads in Haskell, and other recent effect stuff aren't just more precisely dividing up which parts of the program use some pre-canned set of effects. The 'effects' are additional ways of structuring programs. |
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| 16:39:12 | <monochrom> | Yeah, the types are expressing interfaces. |
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| 16:40:36 | <maerwald> | which is non-declarative, in a way |
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| 16:41:35 | <maerwald> | The only thing my mtl constraints tell me is what functions might be used further down in the callstack. It rarely helps with figuring out what's going on though. |
| 16:42:16 | <maerwald> | but I have no idea how to make it better. I think there's a somewhat hard problem here though |
| 16:44:39 | <yushyin> | every time I switch to this channel and read a bit, it's always the same discussions :D (and often the same people too) |
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| 16:45:18 | <monochrom> | Don't worry, I try to give new information! Like this time. I had never said that thing before. |
| 16:45:38 | <yushyin> | ;) |
| 16:47:05 | <monochrom> | Even Haskell itself lacks a precise semantics. Not one that enjoys community consensus. |
| 16:48:00 | <monochrom> | Javascript has a precise semantics but programmers don't actually use it; most don't even know that it exists. |
| 16:48:31 | <monochrom> | And libraries. Most libraries don't have precise semantics. Any language. |
| 16:49:24 | <monochrom> | I want you to meditate on how programmers still have the empirical success they have now, despite this. |
| 16:52:25 | <maerwald> | can you propose precise semantics for a blockchain? xD |
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| 16:53:22 | <maerwald> | or... dependency resolution |
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| 17:20:47 | <yin> | yushyin: repetition is good |
| 17:21:55 | <yin> | and so is consistency |
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| 17:44:49 | <dsal> | I'm pretty annoyed by repetition. People genuinely arguing that copying and pasting stuff three times in a row is better than naming it, because, you know, if something has a name, you'd have to look it up. (then the thing is basically `fromRight` but with an error message and I'd expect anyone reading the code to just know what it did without even looking it up because there's only so much it *can* do). |
| 17:45:32 | <dminuoso> | Third alternative, use `replicateM_ 3 foo` |
| 17:45:53 | <dminuoso> | Sometimes the trick lies not in naming, but in picking the right tools. |
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| 17:52:28 | <dsal> | Heh. It's three different actions, but the arguments are similar. I'm in a strange world where people want to use haskell, but are deathly afraid of any abstraction. |
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| 17:54:10 | <dsal> | Now we want to copy and paste `TE.decodeUtf8With TE.lenientDecode` everywhere instead of just naming it somewhere and reusing it because something about making the decision every time or something. Except we don't, we use that one. |
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| 17:59:16 | <yin> | what's that asterisk doing there? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.0.0/docs/Control-Applicative.html#v:liftA |
| 17:59:49 | <awpr> | haddock markup mistake |
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| 18:00:05 | <dsal> | liftA f a = pure f <*> a |
| 18:00:07 | <awpr> | supposed to be `<*>`, but it looks like it got interpreted as URL syntax |
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| 18:00:16 | <geekosaur> | yeh, that's markup fail |
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| 18:03:22 | <yin> | another fail: |
| 18:03:22 | <yin> | • The function ‘pure’ is applied to two arguments, |
| 18:03:23 | <yin> | but its type ‘(a0 -> a0) -> m0 a1 -> a0 -> a0’ has only three |
| 18:03:38 | <yin> | *only* |
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| 18:06:40 | <maerwald> | dsal: deduplication isn't abstraction |
| 18:07:13 | <maerwald> | sometimes, duplicating code is the right decision, because the implementations may diverge and coupling will cause bugs and confusion |
| 18:07:47 | <dsal> | Sure, I understand the distinction (at least to a degree, it gets fuzzy at some point). |
| 18:08:11 | <maerwald> | I start with duplication a lot, in fact... and after I'm done, I look at the overall code, and wonder if I can see an *actual* abstraction |
| 18:08:33 | <maerwald> | but it's good to make a note "TODO: maybe factor out" |
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| 18:09:22 | <maerwald> | starting with the deduplication sends your code on an odd journey, sometimes |
| 18:09:28 | <dsal> | The larger argument has been along the lines of "code should continually march off to the right in case statements" and I'm like, "Hey, this always does the same thing in `Left` and `Nothing` cases and you only really care about the end result of all the Rights/Justs. What if we *don't* have all that stuff? |
| 18:09:36 | <maerwald> | introducing boolean flags to functions, for instance |
| 18:09:52 | <dsal> | I do tend to start writing things that are less ideal in many cases. Gets me going at least. |
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| 18:12:08 | <maerwald> | all good projects start with "I don't know what I'm doing" |
| 18:12:22 | <johnjay> | maerwald: i think the assumption is you'll build a bunch of stuff on top of your code |
| 18:12:31 | <johnjay> | so then you can't feasibly refactor it later to remove the duplication |
| 18:12:50 | <maerwald> | that means there is no duplication |
| 18:13:01 | <maerwald> | it just started with a similar structure |
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| 18:13:36 | <johnjay> | well if you define x to be 1 a hundred times that's a hundred things to unite under one abstraction |
| 18:13:39 | <yin> | all good projects start with "i know what i'm *not* doing" i find |
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| 18:14:14 | <maerwald> | johnjay: I can't follow this example |
| 18:14:41 | <maerwald> | I'm pretty sure you'll find a couple of hundred variables in big codebases (maybe even GHC RTS) that are just 1 |
| 18:14:50 | <dsal> | The argument here is the opposite. It's something along the lines of "If we make functions for things we do, we won't be able to understand what we're doing without understanding those functions!" |
| 18:14:55 | <johnjay> | yes but that's not what i mean |
| 18:15:23 | <maerwald> | and 1 here may be an index, length of a list, and a hundred other things |
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| 18:15:30 | <geekosaur> | dsal, I feel like they should go back to MS-BASIC |
| 18:15:35 | <maerwald> | that are fine to name explicitly |
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| 18:15:39 | <johnjay> | ok how about a simple example. in every file you need an array of length 10 |
| 18:15:49 | <johnjay> | so you define it each time instead of one global array |
| 18:16:15 | <johnjay> | whether that was a good idea can only be determined later. that's the problem |
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| 18:17:08 | <maerwald> | I don't see the problem. You can always refactor later. |
| 18:17:33 | <dsal> | geekosaur: Honestly, I can't tell what are actual arguments and what are strawman. I have code like `thing1 <- errLeft "can't getThing1" =<< getThing1` and they're like, "I can't know what this code does without going to read the definition of `errLeft`" I'm like... are you sure? Maybe it can use a better name, but `getThing1` returns an `Either err Thing1` and you're using a `Thing1` here. |
| 18:18:43 | <dsal> | One of the pieces I suggested changing looks like this: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/QK1uEeLR/abstraction.png |
| 18:19:13 | <maerwald> | the original looks like junior code |
| 18:19:23 | <dsal> | They preferred #1 for readability, but were willing go with #3. I can almost understand that, but I'm having trouble understanding if there's a *real* concern. |
| 18:19:31 | <dsal> | It *was* fairly junior code. |
| 18:19:45 | <awpr> | even the JavaScript community hates the first option enough to add entire language features to avoid it |
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| 18:20:05 | <maerwald> | you mean nested promises vs await? |
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| 18:20:07 | <dsal> | I was like, "hey, that's harder to follow (it was much longer stuff that marched all the way off the screen)", how about this!? Senior person hated it and thought it made the code harder to read with no value. |
| 18:20:08 | <awpr> | (in the case of promises with cascading nested functions -> async notation for promises) |
| 18:20:10 | <awpr> | yeah |
| 18:20:28 | <geekosaur> | senior person sounds very junior to me |
| 18:20:31 | <maerwald> | I've written nested promises code a long time ago in angular 1 I think |
| 18:20:44 | <maerwald> | sometimes you get your brackets wrong, like in clojure |
| 18:20:48 | <maerwald> | stuff still runs |
| 18:20:52 | <maerwald> | but does something else |
| 18:21:08 | <dsal> | Senior person is very opinionated and has various credentials and stuff. Has some good ideas, but I'm having a difficult time just accepting them without buy-in. |
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| 18:21:34 | <johnjay> | isn't embedding implicit datastructures in nested case or for loops Always A Bad Idea? |
| 18:22:01 | <maerwald> | dsal: I usually just give up then. The time arguing wastes more of my energy than just abiding by a couple of nonsense. |
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| 18:22:36 | <johnjay> | yes. you don't get to define reality, that's the project manager's job |
| 18:22:47 | <dsal> | Yeah, I just didn't write any code yesterday because it's equivalent to writing code I think is an obvious improvement and then having it rejected for reasons I disagree with and can't be helped to understand. |
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| 18:23:18 | <maerwald> | e.g. when it's about code formatting, my stance is: "I'll do whatever you want, but please leave me alone with review comments about style, unless those are formalised rules" |
| 18:23:46 | <maerwald> | and I don't want to be involved in any discussions about code formatting |
| 18:24:01 | <dsal> | Right, there are formalized rules. It's a new project and I disagree with some of them, but don't get any say. I really dislike ormolu, but one of the tenants is that someone picks one and everyone has to use it and you can't discuss it. |
| 18:24:06 | <yin> | and if they are formalised rules, just have a stiler do it |
| 18:24:18 | <maerwald> | yin: yeah |
| 18:24:21 | <geekosaur> | tenets? |
| 18:24:29 | <dsal> | Sorry, yeah. heh |
| 18:24:35 | <maerwald> | ormolu is odd, yes |
| 18:24:43 | <maerwald> | forces me to squint |
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| 18:24:55 | <dsal> | It's not universally terrible, but it does a few things that I think make things more difficult to read. |
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| 18:25:23 | <maerwald> | I like this as a style rule: everyone please do whatever the f*** they want. |
| 18:25:36 | <maerwald> | This worked on a pretty large codebase, btw. The world didn't stop. |
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| 18:25:48 | <geekosaur> | I actually think consistent style is a good thing, especially in an indentation sensitive language |
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| 18:25:57 | <yin> | maerwald: problem is, there are infinite distinct ways of doing the same thing |
| 18:25:59 | <maerwald> | I don't think consistent style serves any purpose |
| 18:26:08 | <maerwald> | except helping some people with their OCD |
| 18:26:09 | <geekosaur> | I don't always agree with the chosen style, but I''ll abide by it |
| 18:26:46 | <maerwald> | yin: it's not a problem... it actually gives me information, because I can see from the style who touched the code (and how many) without even opening git blame |
| 18:27:02 | <yin> | oh i don't mind alignment and such, that's the automatic formatters job |
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| 18:27:03 | <exarkun> | maerwald: So ... it helps some people? :) |
| 18:27:23 | <maerwald> | I mean, programmers have trained their brains to see patterns... |
| 18:27:29 | <yin> | maerwald: lol |
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| 18:27:47 | <yin> | that's one reason i dont like vertical alignment |
| 18:27:49 | <dsal> | ormolu specifically mutilates any alignment or indentation. |
| 18:27:58 | <maerwald> | if you work with your team mates for 6+ months, you'll know every single weird code style they have |
| 18:28:28 | <dsal> | It also really hates putting more than one thing on a line. So you end up with really tall code and reverse indentation. |
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| 18:29:26 | <yin> | my brain is trained to read the body of a where clause at char x. vertically aligning stuff by the arbitrary number of characters that it took to define the function makes no sense |
| 18:29:50 | <dsal> | I like having some alignment in my imports and relatively short pattern matching. You know, get the `=` and `->` lined up so you can easily tell the difference between the left side and right side across all cases. |
| 18:30:04 | <maerwald> | oh, but what I believe in is this: use a lot of where clauses with cool names, so that the main function body really reads like prose |
| 18:30:14 | <yin> | dsal: yes, that i consider helpful |
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| 18:30:28 | <yin> | maerwald: yes! |
| 18:30:44 | <yin> | and forget that if then else exists |
| 18:30:58 | <yin> | and use let in sparingly |
| 18:31:17 | <johnjay> | yeah code formatting is definitely one area you need a consistent standard |
| 18:31:19 | <dsal> | elm folks thought that the most important thing in formatters was making sure that whatever diff tool they use shows the smallest diff for any change possible, so they built their canonical formatter around that. ormolu followed. Those with better tools ore other priorities are SOL. |
| 18:31:25 | <maerwald> | it allows you to skip the details and get high-level understanding of what functions do |
| 18:31:55 | <dsal> | yin: It probably wouldn't surprise you that these people prefer `let` over `where` most of the time. |
| 18:32:17 | <yin> | who are these peple? |
| 18:32:31 | <yin> | ^o |
| 18:32:34 | <johnjay> | dsal's coworkers |
| 18:32:37 | <maerwald> | yin: but one problem is that you can't have: 1. where-clauses where functions don't see each other and 2. where-clauses that don't have access to top-level arguments |
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| 18:32:44 | <johnjay> | what I want to know is who "they" are |
| 18:32:48 | <dsal> | yin: one person who's relatively well-known and a bunch of people who are learning Haskell. |
| 18:33:02 | <maerwald> | if there was a GHC extension with more restrictive `where`, I'd use that |
| 18:33:12 | <dsal> | A lot of the arguments are "I, as someone learning Haskell don't understand this thing that you did at first glance." |
| 18:33:17 | <jkaye> | More restrictive how? |
| 18:33:26 | <maerwald> | see above |
| 18:33:32 | <johnjay> | dsal: that's a legitimate argument though. if most of the team is like that |
| 18:33:54 | <johnjay> | my take is you should put a comment saying this is tricky or advanced code |
| 18:34:09 | <johnjay> | instead of punishing someone for using the features the language provides |
| 18:34:21 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | I will admit to liking `let` over `where` |
| 18:34:21 | <jkaye> | Whoops |
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| 18:34:33 | <dsal> | johnjay: In abstract, sure. But it degrades to never naming anything because someone won't immediately know what it means and will have to go look it up instead of just writing out lots of stuff all the time. |
| 18:34:35 | <yin> | maerwald: use pattern guards? |
| 18:34:56 | <yin> | (pattern guards are my guilty pleasure) |
| 18:35:10 | <johnjay> | dsal: yeah i don't get that myself. there's nothing wrong with having a URL in the description pointing to some doc in pdf or html to consult |
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| 18:35:17 | <johnjay> | sometimes you have to look things up. that's life |
| 18:35:40 | <maerwald> | vaibhavsagar[m]: I think I only use `let` in do notation |
| 18:35:42 | <geekosaur> | shouldn't looking things up be the job of the editor tool (HLS)? |
| 18:35:53 | <maerwald> | no, HLS job is to crash |
| 18:35:55 | <maerwald> | xD |
| 18:35:57 | <maerwald> | jk |
| 18:36:14 | <dsal> | johnjay: Or like, lens is bad because someone saw `_Just` and didn't know what it meant and immediately went to haddock and couldn't understand traversals and blah blah, so I should write a 10 line function every time I need a thing instead of trying to learn something handy in this test. (Not that everyone should use lens all the time, but that's just not a good way to argue) |
| 18:36:30 | <maerwald> | but that has been most of my experience with it |
| 18:36:38 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | maerwald: my current work codebase has a lot of stuff in `where` clauses and IMO it makes it hard to follow the flow of what's happening |
| 18:36:57 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | I have to keep jumping back and forth between the definitions and the function body |
| 18:36:59 | <maerwald> | if those are recursive definitions yes |
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| 18:37:37 | <johnjay> | vaibhavsagar[m]: having 2 windows open can help a lot with that. i'm just starting to do multi-windows on my incredibly widescreen monitor |
| 18:37:39 | <dsal> | vaibhavsagar[m]: In general, Haskell is declarative. You can write what you want done before you write all of the prerequisites. When it's done well, you only have to jump to those definitions when you need more. |
| 18:37:44 | <yin> | vaibhavsagar[m]: just start by reading the where clauses if the function is not obvious enough (which is a separate problem) |
| 18:37:47 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | no, these aren't recursive |
| 18:37:48 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | but even in my own non-work code I like `let` clauses |
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| 18:38:17 | <dsal> | In practice, the difference is between looking up and looking down. Some people strongly want to look up (define all the steps first) and some people want to look down (define the high level goal first, the steps are just details). |
| 18:38:26 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | it's nice that we have both in Haskell though |
| 18:39:10 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | I would say I'm the former |
| 18:39:10 | <yin> | ohhh that's where i disagree |
| 18:39:16 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | but it's also the case that this code doesn't make much sense to me |
| 18:39:30 | <dsal> | There are plenty of reasons the code may not make sense. :) |
| 18:39:31 | <yin> | i prefer having the least ammount of different ways to achieve the same thing, semantically |
| 18:40:01 | <dsal> | Yeah, I agree. let and where are different, but when it doesn't matter, I prefer where. There are different kinds of cases where it matters. |
| 18:40:19 | <maerwald> | could define a new keyword `there`, which disallows recursive definitions and can't access top-level function arguments and |
| 18:40:45 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | that's nice until the language removes both `let` and `where` since everything is functions anyway |
| 18:40:47 | <yin> | s/semantic/syntactic |
| 18:41:03 | <yin> | maerwald: lol |
| 18:41:17 | <yin> | vaibhavsagar[m]: that sounds great actually |
| 18:41:22 | <sshine> | maerwald, and a 'thine' |
| 18:41:26 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2013-July/109116.html |
| 18:41:46 | <awpr> | `heretofore xs = 2 : xs0` |
| 18:41:53 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | yin: I think it sounds better in theory than practice |
| 18:42:16 | <sshine> | let x = 5. it is known. |
| 18:42:20 | <awpr> | or `henceforth` |
| 18:42:34 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | it's fine to disagree, but I'm glad we're not working on the same codebase :) |
| 18:42:36 | <yin> | who cares about practice? |
| 18:42:40 | <awpr> | maybe it would implicitly insert its contents as `where` bindings whenever its free variables are in scope |
| 18:42:47 | <sshine> | awpr, henceforth is nice because it wouldn't allow for recursive definitions. :) |
| 18:43:33 | <dsal> | awpr: Ha, dude loves RecordWildCards, but thinks NamedFieldPuns is bad because it just adds extra syntax that's confusing. |
| 18:44:00 | <yin> | i'm tongue in cheek, by the way. this are very minor annoyances, and completely acceptable divergences in _preference_ |
| 18:44:17 | <dsal> | He thinks the same about TupleSections which is extra weird to me because I'd think most people would discover that by assuming it works and being told to turn it on. That's how I did, anyway. |
| 18:44:31 | <yin> | awpr: we already have 'otherwise' |
| 18:44:45 | <dsal> | I should start using otherwise randomly. |
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| 18:44:53 | <vaibhavsagar[m]> | good to know, I find it hard to read tone sometimes on IRC |
| 18:44:54 | <maerwald> | RecordWildCards are awesome for writing code and terrible for reading it |
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| 18:45:12 | <awpr> | `f x = x * x despite y = 5` |
| 18:45:35 | <dsal> | RecordWildCards is sometimes useful. I have a lot of code like let someField = 1; otherField = 2 in T{..} |
| 18:46:11 | <dsal> | I was reading about "Plain English" yesterday. It sounds horrifying. |
| 18:46:26 | <yin> | ? |
| 18:46:48 | <dsal> | Plain English is a programming language where you write all your code in, you know, plain english. |
| 18:47:12 | <dsal> | It sounds insane to me, but this guy seems serious about it: https://osmosianplainenglishprogramming.blog |
| 18:47:21 | <yin> | i hate the philosphy that programming languages should emulate natural ones |
| 18:47:35 | <dsal> | I don't understand it well enough to hate it. |
| 18:48:09 | <yin> | i don't even infix my `on`s |
| 18:48:29 | <dsal> | The idea is that some genius business guy has an idea, but he's frustrated that he has to hire programmers to get programmers to do it. Programmers are annoying and never understand him. If computers just understood plain english, he could be rich without having those annoying intermediates. |
| 18:48:42 | <dsal> | Except like, programmers are compilers. And your specification is terrible. |
| 18:49:03 | <yin> | unless |
| 18:49:08 | <dsal> | unless is banned |
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| 18:49:20 | <yin> | ;) |
| 18:49:27 | <yin> | unless: github copilot |
| 18:49:48 | <dsal> | `when (not $ thing) $ doUnlessThing` is the preferred style. |
| 18:49:58 | <maerwald> | dsal: I actually dislike unless as well |
| 18:50:02 | <maerwald> | there's a great talk about it |
| 18:50:49 | <dsal> | I'd like to hear a great talk about it. :) I mostly just get "X is confusing" for various things that aren't confusing to me and I don't understand how they're confusing to people. |
| 18:52:13 | <jkaye> | I have no issues with unless, or RecordWildCards, or any of these things. Each person is different? Probably the real answer right there |
| 18:52:57 | <geekosaur> | until one such person gets to force their own idiosyncrasies on a bunch of people who don't know any better |
| 18:53:08 | <monochrom> | COBOL used to be the "w00t business types can now code too!" dream. |
| 18:53:21 | <dsal> | RecordWildCards is mostly OK for introducing values into a small scope. I think it's usually terrible to gather bindings and create a value. |
| 18:53:46 | <maerwald> | dsal: https://youtu.be/2mnYf7L7Amw?t=1282 |
| 18:53:48 | <maerwald> | there it is |
| 18:53:50 | <maerwald> | hehe |
| 18:53:59 | <jkaye> | geekosaur, Completely different problem there. That person could just as easily force you to use untyped js |
| 18:54:10 | <dsal> | Writing `T { fieldA: something, fieldB: somethingElse }` as `let fieldA = something; fieldB = somethingElse in T{..}` is definitely bad. |
| 18:54:17 | <awpr> | also good for cute tricks like `\T{..} -> T{ x = something, ..}` |
| 18:54:54 | <dsal> | OMG, did you just invent lens? |
| 18:54:56 | <awpr> | admittedly not necessary since you could just record update a variable |
| 18:55:56 | <awpr> | hmm, that may actually be a slightly better way to implement a lens |
| 18:57:13 | <dsal> | I usually just `\t v -> t{x = v}` |
| 18:58:00 | <monochrom> | unless you want to do t{x=x+1} |
| 18:58:19 | <dsal> | I think senior dude who's life work seems to be testing pushed a failing test and went to bed or something. |
| 18:58:21 | <awpr> | if you use `field1 f x = f (field1 x) <&> \f1 -> x { field1 = f1 }`, the whole input record is retained in the closure |
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| 18:59:35 | <awpr> | vs. `field1 f T{..} = f field1 <&> \f1 -> T{ field1 = f1, ..}`, that no longer retains the original `field1` value |
| 18:59:58 | <johnjay> | monochrom: so the dream is it requires expertise and study to do X. Wouldn't it be great if we didn't need expertise to do X!? |
| 19:00:20 | <dsal> | I think that's perfectly reasonable. |
| 19:00:31 | <dsal> | The only problem is that people don't realize how bad they are at communicating in English. |
| 19:00:38 | <johnjay> | ^ |
| 19:00:45 | <johnjay> | dunning-kruger is rela |
| 19:00:59 | <awpr> | maybe Plain English is a good way to demonstrate to people that their plain English descriptions are nowhere near sufficiently precise |
| 19:01:16 | <monochrom> | I'm cynical, I think the business-type dream is getting rid of all cost centres. |
| 19:01:18 | <dsal> | People feel that they're really good at getting their points across. Someone recently came in here and had a huge wall of stuff nobody could understand and got mad at everyone because he was sure his presentation was perfect. |
| 19:01:34 | <johnjay> | monochrom: i mean isn't that the entire point of automation and AI? |
| 19:01:39 | <monochrom> | Me, I would take it one step further, why not keep humans out of the loop. |
| 19:01:51 | <dsal> | maerwald: Thanks for the link. I think about ruby when I see `unless` so it's kind of funny it came up this way. |
| 19:01:54 | <johnjay> | The arc of history bends toward Butlerian Jihad |
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| 19:03:04 | <monochrom> | I saw "unless" in Perl, which was long before Ruby existed. I think I also saw it in Racket. |
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| 19:03:49 | <dsal> | I've managed to forget almost everything I knew about perl. |
| 19:03:55 | <maerwald> | lol |
| 19:04:09 | <maerwald> | I think it's better that way |
| 19:04:09 | <monochrom> | And in Perl you have both "$x=1 unless $y>0" and "$x=1 if $y>0" |
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| 19:04:55 | <dsal> | I think unless at the beginning of a sentence is way less harmful. |
| 19:04:57 | <monochrom> | But you know what, your point still stands. Perl has them precisely because Larry Wall admired plain English, too. |
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| 19:06:04 | <monochrom> | And this is precisely why I say "so the programming profession attracts the religious delusional type, for example Larry Wall". |
| 19:06:46 | <monochrom> | or rather s/attracts/is left with/ |
| 19:07:30 | <yin> | where do the 'lusional' people go? |
| 19:07:48 | <monochrom> | Oh haha so let me repeat my complete analysis again. |
| 19:09:10 | <monochrom> | If you are scientifically minded, e.g., you actually know how to formulate useful hypotheses and properly test them, you would have a more rewarding career as a scientist or a biochem drug researcher. So, the programming profession is deprived of people who actually know how to do testing. |
| 19:09:51 | <monochrom> | If you are good with plain English, you would have a more rewarding career as a writer or even lawyer. So, the programming profession is deprived of people who can actually read/write docs. |
| 19:10:05 | <davean> | monochrom: I think thats true for the masses, but I don't think its generally true |
| 19:10:42 | <monochrom> | If you are good at math, you would have a more rewarding career as a mathematician or even a Wall-Street quant. So, the programming profession is deprived of people who are good at math. |
| 19:10:51 | <monochrom> | So what do we have left? |
| 19:11:25 | <monochrom> | Religious, delusional, bad at math, bad at natural languages. Just look at Larry Wall. |
| 19:12:24 | <yin> | lol |
| 19:12:43 | <yin> | what about logic |
| 19:12:56 | <davean> | yin: humans are horrid at logic, look at the world |
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| 19:13:09 | <yin> | i want monochrom to answer |
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| 19:13:21 | <maerwald> | hmm... and what if you're bad at everything? Become a teacher? ;p |
| 19:13:24 | <monochrom> | I still don't know how to spin that one. |
| 19:13:26 | <dsal> | monochrom: If you're good at Haskell, you would have a more rewarding career as a Cryptocurrency quant. |
| 19:13:39 | <monochrom> | For now I swipe it under the math rug. |
| 19:13:49 | <monochrom> | swipe? shove? |
| 19:14:08 | <awpr> | leave as an exercise for the reader |
| 19:14:20 | <yin> | monochrom: shove? bind? |
| 19:14:31 | <[exa]> | fold |
| 19:14:45 | <yin> | i fold |
| 19:14:52 | <monochrom> | Or, lawyers need logic greatly, too. I can put it there. |
| 19:15:01 | <davean> | maerwald: Now now, teachers are good at ignoring student response |
| 19:15:22 | <davean> | maerwald: I once found a classroom the teacher didn't realize the students spoke spanish, and none had full english proficiency |
| 19:15:47 | <davean> | maerwald: They just declared them behavioral problems instead of noticing they litterly couldn't speak to them |
| 19:15:48 | <maerwald> | xD |
| 19:16:05 | <monochrom> | Knuth says that programming is an extreme special case of teaching. |
| 19:16:07 | <davean> | ... 3 months into the school year and still hadn't figured it out |
| 19:16:19 | <davean> | maerwald: This is seriously not a joke |
| 19:16:37 | <geekosaur> | sweep |
| 19:16:56 | <monochrom> | Oh haha imagine you're coding Haskell for 3 months but you're running the C compiler. |
| 19:17:20 | <davean> | monochrom: only conclusion: Haskell is a horrid language its impossible to write a working program in |
| 19:18:29 | <davean> | maerwald: I have to think tehy were a good complainer too, becaue the other teachers said approximately "they're a wonderful teacher who just is really unlucky and keeps being given the problem kids" |
| 19:18:45 | <carbolymer> | I'm cancelling an async, can I get some kind of stacktrace where exception "has entered" that async? |
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| 19:18:52 | <davean> | maerwald: So you give teachers too much credit, some of them have things they're good at, and that makes it all the worse |
| 19:20:31 | <monochrom> | Cancellation is internally done by throwing exceptions. |
| 19:20:31 | <carbolymer> | I guess `callStack` will give stack trace at the call place, not where the exception entered the thread |
| 19:20:39 | <carbolymer> | monochrom: yes |
| 19:20:44 | <geekosaur> | davean, that sounds horribly familiar, only I encountered it in first grade |
| 19:20:47 | <monochrom> | Ah then I don't know. |
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| 19:21:45 | <maerwald> | davean: I only taught a full classroom once... and I could feel the disengagement of every single student... how they didn't understand what I just said, but didn't ask. Leaving you totally helpless. Should you continue or give up? |
| 19:21:55 | <maerwald> | My conclusion: only tutoring works (with maybe 3-5 people) |
| 19:22:07 | <davean> | maerwald: So we have people who specialized in classroom management |
| 19:22:23 | <davean> | and even little things like saying every step seperately an waiting for it to be accomplished went a LONG way |
| 19:22:26 | <davean> | and I mean every step |
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| 19:22:29 | <geekosaur> | I think maybe 2-3 is considered best |
| 19:22:31 | <davean> | "take out your pencils" |
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| 19:22:34 | <maerwald> | haha |
| 19:22:35 | <davean> | "take out your notebooks" |
| 19:22:41 | <davean> | standing at the front, facing them |
| 19:22:45 | <sm> | Inst: installing globally: `cd; stack install foo` |
| 19:22:54 | <davean> | not doign the standard "take out your pencils and notebook" and then turnign and startign writing on teh board |
| 19:23:23 | <davean> | people speak up and explain themselves more when being waited on explicitely for one |
| 19:23:30 | <davean> | anyway, this is barely Haskell |
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| 19:24:09 | <davean> | but if you want a classroom to respond, IMO, get a psych student who's good and who's only task is to get the classroom stuff done smoothly and they can go home when its done well |
| 19:24:13 | <davean> | don't get a teacher |
| 19:24:20 | <davean> | teacher's don't listen to advice |
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| 19:24:30 | <davean> | psych students who want to go home though? |
| 19:24:33 | <carbolymer> | other related question: my thread gets stuck - can I get the stacktrace somehow from that thread? -prof is not an option here |
| 19:24:34 | <davean> | they lit review on their own |
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| 19:29:43 | <johnjay> | monochrom: that is an incredible black pill. but maybe true |
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| 19:38:05 | <dsal> | carbolymer: can you get event logs? |
| 19:38:28 | <dsal> | Some builds can dump stacks, but none I've used. :) |
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| 19:39:55 | <johnjay> | monochrom: also i guess if you consider perl to be a bad language that would make more sense |
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| 19:40:31 | <monochrom> | I don't actually know whether Perl is a bad language. But certainly I don't like many aspects of it. |
| 19:41:07 | <maerwald> | they say perl is for writing, not for reading |
| 19:41:18 | <dsal> | I punished my children whenever brought up perl. |
| 19:41:21 | <monochrom> | That I agree. |
| 19:41:41 | <monochrom> | Along with LaTeX. |
| 19:42:17 | <mark__> | dminuoso: You explained to me that "x = 42; seq x ()" does nothing unless the MMR is :set. I am wondering if this explanation is correct: |
| 19:42:30 | <mark__> | If "42 :: Num a => a" is polymorphic then :sprint can't do anything because a constraint is converted to a simple function parameter in core which means that "42 :: Num a => a" is actually a function in core that is waiting for a dictionary. And a function that is not applied already is in WHNF and therefore "42 :: Num a => a" is in WHNF. It's impossible evaluate any further without the dictionary |
| 19:42:31 | <mark__> | e.g. without knowing the concrete type of "a". |
| 19:43:06 | <yushyin> | it was (is?) an okay glue language back in the days, and the first programming language I learned |
| 19:43:24 | <johnjay> | apparently openssh requires perl to be built |
| 19:43:33 | <johnjay> | lots of random packages you depend on require perl. Xd |
| 19:43:57 | <maerwald> | yeah, often for build system and tests |
| 19:43:57 | <monochrom> | GHC used to require Perl to be built, too. >:) Don't worry, that was a long bygone era. |
| 19:43:59 | <geekosaur> | don't forget that it was only relatively recently that ghc stopped using a perl script when compiling programs (the evil mangler) |
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| 19:52:58 | <dolio> | You guys are too old. |
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| 19:53:52 | <dsal> | I had a perl codebase in the millions of lines in the 90s |
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| 19:54:14 | <dolio> | It's probably been like 12 years since GHC used the evil mangler. |
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| 19:55:28 | <monochrom> | I am not old enough to have the honour of using 8-inch floppy diskettes or Fortran :) |
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| 19:56:05 | <monochrom> | When I started, it was already 5.25-inch, and BASIC. |
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| 19:56:12 | <dolio> | Don't get me wrong, I'm also too old, because it doesn't seem like that long ago to me, either. |
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| 19:58:11 | <monochrom> | Oh and Lode Runner. |
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| 19:58:40 | <monochrom> | Anyone wanna reimplement Lode Runner in Haskell so it can't possibly run on an Apple II? >:) |
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| 20:01:59 | <geekosaur> | [09 19:55:28] <monochrom> I am not old enough to have the honour of using 8-inch floppy diskettes or Fortran :) |
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| 20:02:03 | <geekosaur> | lucky you |
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| 20:12:25 | <unit73e> | lol I only used a 8-inch floppy disk once |
| 20:13:28 | <unit73e> | 3 1/2 was already the norm, and it was the high density version |
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| 20:18:58 | <unit73e> | even 5 1/2 was dead already |
| 20:19:53 | <geekosaur> | now I'm remembering SLS on 50 5¼ floppies |
| 20:20:50 | <sm> | I want Lode Runner in haskell! |
| 20:21:47 | <carbolymer> | dsal: what do you mean by event logs? those from SIGUSR2? |
| 20:22:15 | <dsal> | carbolymer: sigquit, I think |
| 20:22:19 | <dsal> | It'll tell you. :) |
| 20:22:24 | <geekosaur> | -eventlog runtime parameter? which requires recompiling with eventlog support, so if profiling is out so may be that |
| 20:22:41 | <unit73e> | sm, lol I am making SDL2 real world examples lol. Had some trouble loading a sprite sheet with spritesheepacker and loading the result with aeson but managed to do it. Lode Runner shouldn't be hard. |
| 20:23:42 | <dsal> | carbolymer: I've traced that kind of issue with eventlog, which also had me have to name all of my threads so I knew what I was looking at. Then I wrote a custom eventlog regret l reader that would tell me my problem. |
| 20:24:05 | <unit73e> | lazyfoo examples are not what a game dev would do. he did it while learning in college. |
| 20:24:10 | <dsal> | It was rare... Like once a month on a relatively busy server. Bad connection where just wrong. |
| 20:25:38 | <carbolymer> | dsal: same, in our case thread gets stuck also once in a month |
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| 20:26:26 | <dsal> | Neat. The stuff I did with eventlog was really helpful. I did have to name everything, though. |
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| 20:27:44 | <dsal> | I.e., I made a `namedAsync` and used it for all my calls so the threads had names telling me what was going on. |
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| 20:28:02 | <carbolymer> | nice |
| 20:28:10 | <carbolymer> | I'll look into that, thanks dsal |
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| 20:29:43 | <geekosaur> | I think my first "job" was doing backups on a machine with an 8" drive. boring as all get-out. |
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| 20:31:11 | <dsal> | carbolymer: this is there commit where I did a bunch of that: https://github.com/dustin/mqtt-hs/commit/7668dcd8c2173f7703769e1b0044f80e0ae063a7 |
| 20:31:49 | <carbolymer> | dsal: that's suprisingly clean |
| 20:32:02 | <sm> | oh now.. I bet an accurate Lode Runner is quite hard |
| 20:32:08 | <dsal> | Looks like this was my bug fix: https://github.com/dustin/mqtt-hs/commit/50634bada037406bceba7ab13fd7632a97a2ff82 |
| 20:32:25 | <dsal> | Stuff was getting parked in stm when a disconnection happened at exactly the right time. |
| 20:33:38 | <dsal> | The eventlog reader was a one off, but I think I still have it. |
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| 20:37:04 | <carbolymer> | I wonder if in those GHC events I would be able to find out where my thread gets stuck, it seems that's mostly log of events (like the name suggests), not sure if there's an event for "HALP I'M STUCK HERE FOR 4 HRS" from a thread |
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| 20:41:24 | <dsal> | I can't remember what my thing did but it answered my question quickly. |
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| 20:42:20 | <dsal> | You can add stuff like timeouts and extra info. |
| 20:42:45 | <dsal> | In my case, I think it was "where did the currently running threads start?" |
| 20:43:28 | <dsal> | Then I used my brain runtime to debug. |
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| 21:02:17 | <dsal> | carbolymer: This was the hack I used to figure out what threads were running: https://gist.github.com/dustin/2ca9e66543c4e5c5158650f790454a99 |
| 21:02:58 | <carbolymer> | nice, thanks |
| 21:04:44 | dsal | It's gross and I don't even know what it was supposed to do, but it did it. :) |
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| 21:16:47 | shapr | attaches a debugger to his brain |
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| 21:20:55 | <dsal> | There's some ugly stuff in there. Like, what's `\Event{evTime} -> evTime` |
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| 21:32:12 | <[exa]> | dsal: field pattern? |
| 21:32:39 | <[exa]> | ah that was not a question. :D |
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| 21:45:17 | <carbolymer> | ;) |
| 21:45:25 | <carbolymer> | dsal: but it works! |
| 21:45:58 | × | cjb quits (~cjbayliss@user/cjb) () |
| 21:46:01 | <carbolymer> | when I was doing java, I missed Haskell's abstractions |
| 21:46:09 | <carbolymer> | now I'm doing Haskell, I miss JVM instrumentation |
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| 21:47:13 | <sm> | ekg, any good ? |
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| 21:48:03 | <carbolymer> | yeah, ekg is okayish |
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| 21:55:47 | <maerwald> | iohk-monitoring-framework uses it |
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| 21:57:24 | <maerwald> | https://github.com/input-output-hk/iohk-monitoring-framework/blob/master/plugins/backend-ekg/src/Cardano/BM/Backend/EKGView.lhs |
| 21:59:34 | <carbolymer> | that looks impressive |
| 21:59:49 | <carbolymer> | are they writing all their code as literate haskell?\ |
| 22:00:36 | <maerwald> | it's probably one of their worst libraries |
| 22:00:38 | <maerwald> | :D |
| 22:00:46 | <carbolymer> | haha |
| 22:00:47 | <carbolymer> | why |
| 22:00:56 | <maerwald> | well, try to use it and check the documentation |
| 22:00:58 | <carbolymer> | I haven't figured out what it really does |
| 22:00:59 | <carbolymer> | though |
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| 22:07:52 | <dsal> | carbolymer: When I started doing java, I missed squeak's instrumentation. heh |
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| 22:08:31 | <dsal> | This is some stuff I was doing in haskell a couple weeks ago: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/8saPPh6O/ping.png |
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| 22:09:28 | <carbolymer> | dsal: that's nice, realy informative |
| 22:09:30 | <dsal> | I wrote some literate haskell in markdown at my last job. It was pretty neat since our source browser rendered markdown and also the flow diagrams I was using inside of the file and stuff. |
| 22:10:20 | <dsal> | carbolymer: It's more than it appears at first! The little /\ is pointing to when a postgres lock was acquired. Understanding what the actual code is doing, you can tell exactly when a connection was acquired from a pool, what had it last, when it asked for a lock, when it got a lock, and how long each little piece of the transaction took. |
| 22:10:59 | <dsal> | Also, this kind of thing: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/qpJ9Y6E1/query.png |
| 22:11:19 | <carbolymer> | wow |
| 22:11:55 | <carbolymer> | thats from output from event log, or -prof? |
| 22:11:59 | <dsal> | eventlog |
| 22:12:11 | <carbolymer> | that's a lot of data |
| 22:12:11 | <carbolymer> | nice |
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| 22:13:21 | <dsal> | This is opentelemetry. It also covers distributed traces, though the viewing tool I was using can't actually show that. You could trace a new connection being made to the DB back to the function that issued the request in another process. |
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| 22:14:20 | <dsal> | Yeah, I didn't even get a screenshot of that because this tool couldn't do it. |
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| 22:19:56 | <mark__> | Still confused regarding WHNF. 1) Is a partially applied value constructor in WHNF, like (:) True ? 2) Is a lambda abstraction applied to an argument in WHNF, like (\x -> x) "A" ? |
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| 22:24:46 | <mark__> | I think the expression in "x = \(x :: Int) -> x" is in WHNF. There is nothing that could be evaluated but "seq x (); :sprint x" returns "x = _". Is this because a lambda is not showable? |
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| 22:35:21 | <lyxia> | Yeah |
| 22:35:27 | <geekosaur> | right, lambdas are in WHNF but there's nothing to show |
| 22:35:33 | <geekosaur> | they have to be applied |
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| 22:58:04 | <monochrom> | Partially applied value constructor is translated to lambda, e.g., "(:) True" means \y -> True : y |
| 22:58:37 | <byorgey> | mark__: (1) yes, (2) no |
| 22:58:55 | <monochrom> | In fact let's not fear 0. (:) = \x y -> x : y |
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| 23:03:28 | <remexre> | are there any circumstances where (traceM "foo" >> undefined) would error, but not print the traceM? |
| 23:04:33 | <mark__> | So I never evaluate arguments unless I have to and i keep evaluating case expressions and applying my lambdas until I reach a value constructor or get "stuck" (too few arguments)? |
| 23:06:42 | <monochrom> | remexre: Yes, I think Control.Monad.State.Lazy may do that. |
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| 23:13:27 | <remexre> | monochrom: how does that work? doesn't the trace need to get forced to tell if the LHS of >> is _|_ or not? |
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| 23:17:01 | <monochrom> | Does >> of State.Lazy force the LHS of >> ? |
| 23:17:15 | <monochrom> | Does it even care? |
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| 23:21:10 | <danso> | would an equivalent definition for Alternative be `(Applicative f, forall a . Monoid (f a)) => Applicative f` with no methods? |
| 23:21:47 | <danso> | this requires QuantifiedConstraints, but i am not aware of any drawbacks to enabling it |
| 23:22:36 | <hpc> | there might be overlapping Monoid instances that depend on knowledge of a |
| 23:22:49 | <remexre> | monochrom: on phone so checking is slow, but it looks like it doesn't override it, and I think runStateT on the LHS should force it? |
| 23:22:51 | <hpc> | and do a different but valid thing |
| 23:22:56 | <remexre> | Which the (>>=) does |
| 23:23:14 | <hpc> | but probably yes if this is just "am i understanding Alternative correctly" |
| 23:23:28 | <monochrom> | Ugh phone is not a suitable medium for this kind of investigation. |
| 23:23:49 | <remexre> | Yeah... Heading home from work /shrug |
| 23:24:35 | <monochrom> | Pen and paper, however, is perfect for this kind of calculational work. |
| 23:26:11 | <monochrom> | A simplified version of Lazy.State's >>= is: (State stf) >>= k = State (\s0 -> let (a, s1) = stf s0 in runState (k a) s1) |
| 23:27:24 | <remexre> | Right, and the traceM should trace when it matches against the State stf, right? |
| 23:27:32 | <monochrom> | If k = \_ -> undefined, calculate whether the above definition even cares what stf is. |
| 23:28:12 | <monochrom> | And let me remind you the semantics of let: |
| 23:28:22 | <monochrom> | > let (x,y) = undefined in 42 |
| 23:28:23 | <lambdabot> | 42 |
| 23:28:49 | <monochrom> | Even this: |
| 23:28:55 | <monochrom> | > let Just x = Nothing in 42 |
| 23:28:57 | <lambdabot> | 42 |
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| 23:30:13 | <monochrom> | Also, "(State stf)" is a newtype wrapper, "(State stf) >>= ..." is as though "stf >>= ..." |
| 23:30:26 | <remexre> | Hm, okay... |
| 23:30:36 | <monochrom> | So, who forces stf again? |
| 23:30:48 | <remexre> | stf doesn't need to be forced |
| 23:31:06 | <remexre> | traceM x = trace x (pure ()) |
| 23:31:16 | <remexre> | So to get the State it should force the trace |
| 23:32:04 | <monochrom> | OK, name me your favourite newtype wrapper that's on lambdabot. I'll show you what it really does. |
| 23:32:32 | <remexre> | Uh I do not know lambdabot well... Data.Functor.Identity.Identity? |
| 23:32:41 | <monochrom> | OK! |
| 23:32:53 | <monochrom> | > case undefined of Identity x -> 32 |
| 23:32:55 | <lambdabot> | 32 |
| 23:33:55 | <remexre> | Huh, I guess this kinda makes sense for newtypes... |
| 23:34:31 | <monochrom> | After type erasure it's just "case undefined of x -> 32" |
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| 23:36:02 | <monochrom> | I ran into this once. My course material used to use newtype. One day I decided to s/newtype/data/ so I don't have to explain newtype to students. Then I got an unexpected bottom. |
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| 23:36:35 | <remexre> | Okay, I guess that all makes sense, thanks! |
| 23:37:26 | <yin> | > case undefined of StateT x -> 32 |
| 23:37:28 | <lambdabot> | 32 |
| 23:37:29 | <yin> | oh no |
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| 23:37:47 | <remexre> | Oof |
| 23:38:16 | <danso> | thanks hpc. with the overlapping instances, are you saying that for some `f`, `f Int` could have a difference Monoid instance than `f String` ? |
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| 23:38:37 | <remexre> | Also rip getting massive lag... Well, I'll check that my transformer stack has at least one strict monad in it when I'm back home, thanks |
| 23:39:17 | <monochrom> | Yeah if you just say "Control.Monad.State" you get the Lazy one, for example. |
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| 23:40:28 | <monochrom> | In retrospect I think that that decision was as naïve as defining foldl. |
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| 23:51:28 | <yin> | monochrom: what do you mean? |
| 23:52:05 | <Axman6> | foldl is bad, lazy state by default is bad |
| 23:52:25 | <yin> | nooo |
| 23:53:26 | <monochrom> | Yeah, that. |
| 23:53:56 | <yin> | i like having to be explicit when we want strictness |
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| 23:54:22 | <Axman6> | there are definnitely times where strictness by default is the right choice, and both of those are good examples |
| 23:54:46 | <monochrom> | What if I put it this way: For a long time, foldl' did not exist, that's the real naïvity. |
| 23:54:47 | <Axman6> | there's no reason for foldl to not be strict except in very rare, usually contrived examples |
| 23:55:12 | <yin> | i think defaults should be predictable |
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| 23:55:41 | <yin> | if you know everything is lazy by default, you'll know when to require lazyness |
| 23:55:58 | <yin> | if not, you are in the dark |
| 23:56:12 | <yin> | s/lazyness/stricness |
| 23:56:21 | <yin> | ^t |
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| 23:57:38 | <Axman6> | if you cvan think of an example where lazy foldl is useful, I will be impressed. The current one leads to unexpected (and hence, unpredictable) behaviour, which is very difficult to debug if you don't know about foldl's behaviour. You end up with stack overflows in completely unrelated parts of your program |
| 23:57:54 | <monochrom> | I can be talked into either having no defaults or having defaults aligning with majority use cases. But I am skeptical about having defaults aligning with ideology. |
| 23:57:59 | <Cajun> | "if you know everything is lazy...lazyness" i disagree. you may know strictness may be necessary for some semblance of performance, but not necessarily know exactly when strictness should be made explicit |
| 23:58:15 | <Cajun> | like "should i add bang patterns to this?" |
| 23:58:32 | <monochrom> | The time-proved retrospective observation is that foldl and State.Lazy have much fewer use cases. |
| 23:58:41 | ← | pennychase[m] parts (~pennychas@2001:470:69fc:105::1:3043) () |
| 23:58:48 | <monochrom> | Similarly Data.Map.Lazy for example. |
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| 23:59:22 | <Axman6> | "Shoukd I add a bang pattern to this?" The answer is always "yes" :P |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-11-09.