Logs on 2021-11-12 (liberachat/#haskell)

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01:18:15	<ddb>	int-e: I was able to get all of what you said, and it works as far as I can tell! Even got djinn working with your patch instructions.
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02:52:58	<hololeap>	I want to reference a whole pattern match in a type family. is there any way to do this or some other way to make this snippet work? http://sprunge.us/9fimdF
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02:55:19	<awpr>	can do some workaround like `type ActualTypeFamily a0 a1 where ...` and `type Wrapper a = ActualTypeFamily a a`
02:55:42	<awpr>	things are just less convenient in type family land, pretty frequently
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03:49:41	<hololeap>	awpr: I cannot seem to get it to let me specify at the top of a recursive datakind that the root and all ancestors satisfy some constraints: http://dpaste.com/D63462PXP
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03:56:12	<awpr>	so for one, I think this will be hard to work with, since even knowing what the constraint is requires knowing which constructor of Tree/Root the parameter is
03:56:47	<awpr>	in particular `KnownTreeR t` doesn't imply `KnownTree t` until _after_ you prove which case it is
03:57:59	<awpr>	the way it's written is a bit like `case t of Node x y -> knownTree t; Leaf -> knownTree t`, in that it has to "force" the present node before making any progress
03:58:59	<awpr>	probably more useful to compare against `case t of Node x y -> (knownTree t, otherStuff x y); Leaf -> (knownTree t, ())` actually
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04:01:08	<awpr>	refactoring that to `(knownTree t, case t of Node x y -> otherStuff x y; Leaf -> ())` means you can immediately find `knownTree t`, and only the recursive stuff depends on which constructor it is
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04:07:20	<awpr>	the other side of this is: with the `singTree` method, `KnownTree` already provides knowledge about the shape of the entire tree, it's just not convenient to get the subtrees back into the form of `KnownTree` instances. so instead of recursing on `KnownTree` instances, you can recurse on `SingTree` values, and use `KnownTree` only as a convenient way of supplying `SingTree` arguments automatically
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04:10:14	<awpr>	a third, somewhat weirder angle: `data SingTree t where SingNode :: (KnownTree tl, KnownTree tr) => SingTree (Node tl tr); ...`, so that matching `SingNode` inherently brings the instances into scope, and you regain the ability to recurse on instances. I've never tried this style of recursive singletons, though, so I'm not sure whether it will go smoothly
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04:49:21	<dsal>	Is there a less repetitive way to do `liftA3 c (f a) (f b) (f c)` ?
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04:49:41	<dsal>	Er, those aren't the same c...
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04:58:58	<koz>	dsal: c <$> f a <> f b <> f c?
04:59:55	<dsal>	Heh I was hoping mainly to avoid writing `f` three times in this case.
05:00:04	<dsal>	That's more obvious on my screen.
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05:15:02	<kronicmage>	@pl g f = liftA3 c (f a) (f b) (f c)
05:15:02	<lambdabot>	g = ap (ap (liftA3 c . ($ a)) ($ b)) ($ c)
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05:15:43	<kronicmage>	Sometimes repetition is more readable lol
05:19:02	<Axman6>	@pl g f = c <$> f a <> f b <> f c -- this is not going to be better...
05:19:02	<lambdabot>	g = (c <$>) . ap ((<>) . liftM2 (<>) ($ a) ($ b)) ($ c)
05:19:03	<awpr>	@let on3 f g x y z = f (g x) (g y) (g z)
05:19:04	<lambdabot>	Defined.
05:19:32	<Axman6>	:t on3
05:19:33	<lambdabot>	(t1 -> t1 -> t1 -> t2) -> (t3 -> t1) -> t3 -> t3 -> t3 -> t2
05:19:38	<awpr>	(liftA3 f `on` c) x y z
05:19:58	<awpr>	:t on -- for comparison
05:19:59	<lambdabot>	(b -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> a -> c
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06:19:08	<DemiMarieObenour>	Anyone else wished that GHC had a concurrent compacting garbage collector?
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06:23:58	<sm>	sure!
06:24:29	<sm>	and sub second program compile times
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06:29:16	<Axman6>	doesn't it have both those things? not at the same time? I haven't looked at the state of the art in GHC garbage collection
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06:29:35	<dolio>	I don't think it has a compacting collector.
06:30:21	<Axman6>	copying totally does compacting :P
06:30:31	<dolio>	Well, that's true.
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06:44:34	<DemiMarieObenour>	yes, but it is stop-the-world
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06:44:50	<DemiMarieObenour>	looks at Java ZGC
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06:46:29	<opqdonut>	DemiMarieObenour: how about https://well-typed.com/blog/2019/10/nonmoving-gc-merge/ ?
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06:47:45	<DemiMarieObenour>	opqdonut: yes, but a non-moving GC still may run into heap fragmentation problems. A concurrent compacting collector is the holy grail of GC technology, but is a massive amount of work.
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07:30:34	<int-e>	ddb: nice :)
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11:32:54	<f-a>	hello, one some linux machines my compiled program fails with «error while loading shared libraries: libffi.so.7: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory»
11:33:14	<f-a>	reasonably enough, since I use ForeignFunctionInterface in a module
11:33:57	<f-a>	question is: if I somehow remove that module, will I still need libffi? In general, is there a way to check which module/import necessitases libxyz?
11:34:27	<f-a>	and second question: is there a way I can pack libffi.so.7 in the same executable (or at least in the same zip)?
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11:35:53	<[exa]>	f-a: "pack in the same executable" is basically "link it statically", so yes
11:36:30	<[exa]>	otoh it is kinda preferable that the library is supplied by the target system
11:37:11	<f-a>	it is such a basic library, but when I have a friend try it it complains about the wrong number (API?) at the end?
11:37:25	<f-a>	makes me wonder if it could somehow choose a different one and pray
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11:37:55	<[exa]>	usually if you're distributing a binary package you need to properly list dependencies, and the target site needs to install these right
11:38:19	<[exa]>	depending on what you're trying to do I'd just advice for static linking :D
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11:39:23	<f-a>	thanks, I will try
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11:40:19	<[exa]>	f-a: in any case, what are you precisely trying to achieve? move the software without recompilation?
11:41:05	<f-a>	distribute a binary without people having to fetch a library
11:41:32	<f-a>	since it is a frigging console app and not anything complex
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11:52:27	<[exa]>	f-a: in that case the static build is the way to go :]
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11:53:05	<f-a>	I am tryig executable-static, wonder why I did not think about it before…
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12:13:08	<dminuoso>	Mmm, I really miss: fromListEff :: Applicative f => (k -> a -> f ()) -> [(k, a)] -> f (Map k a)
12:13:11	<dminuoso>	This would be so useful :(
12:13:26	<yin>	do we have linear types yet?
12:13:48	<dminuoso>	I mean I can build something similar with alterF, but definitely not with the same asymptotics
12:22:13	→	deadmarshal joins (~deadmarsh@95.38.228.222)
12:27:07	<tomsmeding>	yin: {-# LANGUAGE LinearTypes #-} works on ghc 9.0 :)
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12:28:34	<hpc>	my dream of an automatic type-safe rust ffi are inching ever closer to reality :D
12:28:35	→	jchia[m] joins (~jchiamatr@2001:470:69fc:105::c50b)
12:28:52	<tomsmeding>	dminuoso: I assume that's not just fromListEff f l = Map.fromList l <$ traverse (uncurry f) l
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12:35:52	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: Yeah.
12:35:59	<dminuoso>	I want that to be called on conflict.
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12:36:05	<dminuoso>	Oh
12:36:07	<dminuoso>	It should rather be:
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12:36:16	<dminuoso>	fromListEff :: Applicative f => (k -> k -> a -> f ()) -> [(k, a)] -> f (Map k a)
12:36:18	<dminuoso>	Obviously
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12:36:29	<dminuoso>	That would have avoided the ambiguity here I think
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12:43:35	<tomsmeding>	ah right
12:44:25	<tomsmeding>	if you want the right asymptotics without much hassle, but perhaps non-optimal constant factor: sort on key first, then groupBy ((==) `on` fst), do the deduplication yourself, and then Map.fromListAsc
12:44:30	<tomsmeding>	but yeah
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12:47:50	<dminuoso>	tomsmeding: Id probably just write something custom as opposed to groupBy
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13:18:22	<whatif>	list comprehension is really fun, map f alist = [ f(i) \| i <- alist ]
13:18:45	<Hecate>	yes
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13:20:47	<yushyin>	i don't use it that often in haskell, but fun nevertheless, yes.
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13:23:09	<whatif>	how to express a list that current one element to end, like in [1..10] but I want [3..10]
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13:24:41	<whatif>	in python, [ alist[i::] for i in range(len(alist)) if i == 3 ]
13:25:44	<whatif>	emm, for example, there's an element 3 in alist, I'd like to get the rest, start from 3
13:26:30	<whatif>	normal way is splitOn or splitAt stuff... I'd like to know the list comprehension way
13:26:58	<whatif>	[ alist[i::] for i in range(len(alist)) if alist[i] == 3 ]
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13:29:56	<hpc>	[f x \| x <- list, some boolean expression that contains x]
13:30:01	<whatif>	haskell no list slice, but has `drop`
13:30:15	<tromp>	there is no list comprehension equivalent of dropWhile (/= 3)
13:30:23	<hpc>	(which outside a list comprehension is guard)
13:30:27	<hpc>	:t guard
13:30:28	<lambdabot>	Alternative f => Bool -> f ()
13:30:31	<hpc>	there's also filter
13:30:32	<hpc>	:t filter
13:30:33	<lambdabot>	(a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
13:30:43	<xddq[m]>	* I think you look for "break"?
13:30:43	<xddq[m]>	`snd $ break (==3) [1..10]`
13:30:43	<xddq[m]>	nvm. I should read the full post :D
13:30:44	<xddq[m]>	whatif: I think you look for "break"?
13:30:44	<xddq[m]>	```snd $ break (==3) xs```
13:30:44	<xddq[m]>	> <@whatif:libera.chat> how to express a list that current one element to end, like in [1..10] but I want [3..10]
13:30:44	<xddq[m]>	* I think you look for "break"?
13:30:45	<xddq[m]>	`snd $ break (==3) [1..10]`
13:30:45	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘<@’
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13:31:23	<whatif>	xddq[m]: I wonder the list comprehension way
13:31:56	<whatif>	I found that list comprehension and list slice are very useful in python
13:32:02	<whatif>	and fun
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13:32:39	<yushyin>	your python example returns a list in list
13:33:10	<yushyin>	it's not really a slice, i would argue
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13:34:33	<whatif>	for example, get the a digit string from a string's end, "abc12" -> "12", "ab12c3" -> "3", with python, [ alist[i::] for i in range(len(alist)) if alist[i::].isdigit() ]
13:34:34	<yushyin>	i can translate your example `[ alist[i::] for i in range(len(alist)) if alist[i] == 3 ]' directly to haskell and it would look like this `let alist = [1..10] in [[i .. (length alist)] \| i <- alist, i == 3]'
13:36:13	<whatif>	yushyin: what if the list is [1,3,2,7,9]
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13:36:52	<whatif>	python code still return [3,2,7,9], the right one
13:37:36	<yushyin>	we would use dropWhile/takeWhile or so
13:38:43	<whatif>	yushyin: get the a digit string from a string's end, "abc12" -> "12", "ab12c3" -> "3", what's the haskell list comprehension way?
13:38:45	<yushyin>	or at least I wouldn't use list comprehension for such things
13:39:58	<whatif>	python lack Data.List, toolz module lack lots of function than Data.List
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13:48:12	<whatif>	[ if (isDigit (drop n alist)) then (drop n alist) else [] \| n <- [0.. (length alist)] ]
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14:10:23	<whatif>	> let alist = "ab12c36" in [ drop n alist \| n <- [0..((length alist) -1)], all isDigit (drop n alist) ]
14:10:24	<lambdabot>	["36","6"]
14:11:07	<_________>	> let alist = "abc12c3" in [ alist !! idx \| idx <- map fst $ reverse.takeWhile (Data.Char.isDigit.snd).reverse $ zip [0..] alist ]
14:11:08	<lambdabot>	"3"
14:11:38	<_________>	list comprehension is ugly :p
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14:13:27	<whatif>	_________: you should use it like that...
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14:14:10	<whatif>	what's the point? if you use split to split list and zip to address the index
14:16:47	<_________>	you wanted to translate python code using list comprehensions into haskell code using list comprehensions, right ? that's how it would look in haskell - without indexing it wouldn't be python equivalent ;)
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14:18:07	<_________>	without list comprehension it would be something like this in haskell: reverse.takeWhile Data.Char.isDigit $ reverse "abc12c3"
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14:23:19	<dminuoso>	What does alist[i::] do in python?
14:23:35	<whatif>	dminuoso: drop i alist
14:23:36	<yushyin>	a slice from the index i to the end
14:23:45	<dminuoso>	Including i?
14:23:53	<whatif>	including
14:23:55	<yushyin>	i think so, yes.
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14:24:41	<whatif>	dminuoso: it's fancy to express something with that list slice
14:26:00	<whatif>	for example, remove the duplicate element, [ alist[i] for i in range(len(alist)) if alist[i] not in alist[i+1::] ]
14:26:29	<whatif>	so [1,1,2,3,2] would be [1,3,2]
14:26:50	<dminuoso>	let s = "ab12c3" in reverse . takeWhile isDigit . reverse $ s
14:26:55	<dminuoso>	% let s = "ab12" in reverse . takeWhile isDigit . reverse $ s
14:26:55	<yahb>	dminuoso: "12"
14:26:58	<dminuoso>	% let s = "ab12" in reverse . takeWhile isDigit . reverse $ s
14:26:58	<yahb>	dminuoso: "12"
14:27:40	<yushyin>	but they want it to be list comprehension
14:27:45	<dminuoso>	The answer is: dont?
14:28:28	<dminuoso>	I dont understand why you'd insist on using a list comprehension in the first place, both Haskell or Python
14:30:35	<dminuoso>	14:34:33 whatif \| for example, get the a digit string from a string's end, "abc12" -> "12", "ab12c3" -> "3", with python, [ alist[i::] for i in range(len(alist)) if alist[i::].isdigit() ]
14:30:39	<yushyin>	me neither, i find it ugly in haskell as well in python. there are a few situations in which it is halfway nice
14:30:44	<geekosaur>	it might be the easiest way to do it in python, but that doesn't necessarily carry over to haskell
14:30:46	<dminuoso>	This is very unidiomatic python code to begin with
14:30:59	<dminuoso>	And terribly inefficient ontop
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14:33:10	<dminuoso>	The pythonista way would probably be: re.match('.*?([0-9]+)$', str).group(1)
14:34:00	<whatif>	> let alist = [1,1,2,3,2] in [ alist !! n \| n <- [0..(lenght(alist) - 1)], (alist !! n) `notElem` (drop (n+1) alist) ]
14:34:02	<lambdabot>	error:
14:34:02	<lambdabot>	• Variable not in scope: lenght :: [a0] -> Int
14:34:02	<lambdabot>	• Perhaps you meant one of these:
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14:34:25	<dminuoso>	Anyway. Not sure what the point of translating poor python code into poor Haskell is.
14:34:27	<whatif>	> let alist = [1,1,2,3,2] in [ alist !! n \| n <- [0..(lengh(alist) - 1)], (alist !! n) `notElem` (drop (n+1) alist) ]
14:34:29	<lambdabot>	error:
14:34:29	<lambdabot>	• Variable not in scope: lengh :: [a0] -> Int
14:34:29	<lambdabot>	• Perhaps you meant one of these:
14:34:39	<dminuoso>	It's certainly not insightful or helpful
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14:35:11	<dminuoso>	Let me give you a direct translation:
14:35:48	<whatif>	let alist = [1,1,2,3,2] in [ alist !! n \| n <- [0..(length(alist) - 1)], (alist !! n) `notElem` (drop (n+1) alist) ]
14:36:02	<whatif>	> let alist = [1,1,2,3,2] in [ alist !! n \| n <- [0..(length(alist) - 1)], (alist !! n) `notElem` (drop (n+1) alist) ]
14:36:04	<lambdabot>	[1,3,2]
14:36:47	<whatif>	the list comprehension, express the question with list comprehension, and the anwser it is
14:37:12	<yushyin>	indexing haskell linked lists is usually not a good idea
14:37:17	<[exa]>	whatif: I always kinda guessed that the !! operator is named like that so that people know it should not be used very often :]
14:37:41	<dminuoso>	whatif: Even the python code is very poor already.
14:37:46	<[exa]>	whatif: what should the code do btw? (in human words)
14:37:47	<yushyin>	[exa]: lol, maybe your are right
14:38:01	<[exa]>	yushyin: you can literally read it as BANG BANG MAAN
14:38:26	<dminuoso>	% let xs = "foo123" in [ drop i xs \| i <- [0..length xs], all isDigit (drop i xs) ] -- whatif
14:38:26	<yahb>	dminuoso: ["123","23","3",""]
14:38:34	<dminuoso>	whatif: ^- that is a direct translation of what your python code does.
14:38:45	<whatif>	[exa]: remove the duplicate element in alist, so if element is not show up in the rest, then it is single
14:38:47	<dminuoso>	Without random access
14:38:58	<dminuoso>	Let me rewrite with a let binding
14:39:17	<dminuoso>	% let xs = "foo123" in [ xs' \| i <- [0..length xs], let xs' = drop i xs, all isDigit xs' ]
14:39:18	<yahb>	dminuoso: ["123","23","3",""]
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14:39:41	<yushyin>	looks like tails with filter all isDigit
14:39:51	<dminuoso>	Yeah
14:40:23	<[exa]>	whatif: what about: alist input = [x \| (x:xs) <- tails input, x `notElem` xs]
14:40:58	<dminuoso>	Why are we discussing poor translations of poor python code anyway?
14:41:31	<dminuoso>	The real answer is: In python nobody sane would have written that, and in Python you'd just have used `reverse . takeWhile isDigit . reverse`
14:41:41	<dminuoso>	Both would have ended up with better readable code with better asymptotics
14:41:49	<dminuoso>	And better cache behavior ontop
14:42:02	<whatif>	python doesn't have Data.List
14:42:09	<dminuoso>	Yes, in Python you would have used a regex.
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14:42:20	<dminuoso>	re.match('.*?([0-9]+)$', str).group(1)
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14:43:27	<[exa]>	whatif: well if that was the only thing Python would be missing... :]
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14:43:50	<dminuoso>	Side note of interest, String being a list is not always a good thing either.
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14:49:33	<whatif>	re.match('.*?([0-9]+)$', str).group(1) I think regex is not good readable
14:49:52	<dminuoso>	If you have any regex experience, it's very readable.
14:50:07	<dminuoso>	And since regex are very common and idiomatic in Python, Im going to suggest that any pythonista can make quick sense of it
14:50:09	<whatif>	I know BRE
14:50:13	<dminuoso>	Much quicker than with a list comprehension
14:51:20	<whatif>	since then, why list comprehension is created at the first?
14:51:46	<whatif>	70s'? first apperance in which language?
14:52:20	<dminuoso>	Python burrowed them from Haskell
14:52:41	<whatif>	python burrowed a lot of things from others
14:52:45	<dminuoso>	And whether Haskelled burrowed them from another language Im not sure, but the syntax/semantics was inspired by set builder notation in mathematics
14:53:18	<dminuoso>	That is, <- is an ascii approximation of a ∈ A
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15:00:21	<janus>	what, i thought it was supposed to be an arrow
15:00:55	<janus>	never even considered that it would be a ∈
15:01:12	<janus>	and even the fancy haskell typesetting contracts them to an arrow, i thought
15:01:46	<dminuoso>	\ is an ASCII approximatino of λ
15:01:51	<dminuoso>	:)
15:02:20	<yushyin>	whatif: with re.search the regex kann be even simpler. re.search('[0-9]+$', str).group(0) # i think this is readable enough
15:02:48	<dminuoso>	janus: Consider in Math you might write [ x * 2 \| x ∈ ℕ ]
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15:03:26	<whatif>	> let alist=["ab","ef","ij"], blist = ["cd","gh","kl"] in [ (alist !! n) <> (blist !! n) \| n <- [0..(length alist)-1] ]
15:03:28	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:27: error: parse error on input ‘,’
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15:06:06	<[exa]>	whatif: you mean `zip` right?
15:06:34	<whatif>	or get the sequence of x * y < 10, x and y <- [0..10], use list comprehension is readable
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15:06:49	<janus>	dminuoso: but just because it has one origin in the list comprehension syntax, it could have another origin in monadic syntax
15:07:43	<janus>	i mean, if '<-' is used to set an MVar, it doesn't seem similar to "is a member of"
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15:08:55	<whatif>	[exa]: yes, zip
15:09:36	<whatif>	I forget how to use two variable in let
15:09:54	<whatif>	not let a=..., b=... in ?
15:11:04	<_________>	let a = 1; b = 2 in [a, b]
15:11:06	<_________>	> let a = 1; b = 2 in [a, b]
15:11:07	<lambdabot>	[1,2]
15:11:09	<whatif>	I hate people add 's in English if it's not one, in my mother language, no such thing
15:11:32	<whatif>	one apple, two apple, three apple
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15:12:22	<whatif>	_________: yes
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15:18:33	<WhateverRabbit>	hi all
15:20:22	<whatif>	what's function name that fmap take two lists?
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15:20:46	<whatif>	fmap (+) alist blist, I forget the name
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15:20:55	<_________>	zipWith ?
15:21:03	<WhateverRabbit>	+
15:24:13	<whatif>	_________: right
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15:24:32	<_________>	you can also use hoogle to find them by type signature
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15:25:01	<whatif>	_________: then hoogle will tell me liftM2
15:25:17	<_________>	https://hoogle.haskell.org/?hoogle=(a%20-%3E%20b%20-%3E%20c)%20-%3E%20%5Ba%5D%20-%3E%20%5Bb%5D%20-%3E%20%5Bc%5D - it tells me it's zipWith
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15:59:13	<hololeap>	awpr: I figured out a (the?) trick, which is to add constraints to the singleton GADT constructors, that way the compiler is assured that they will be satisfied at each layer of the tree
15:59:50	<hololeap>	I threw out the type family constraint thing as it was not working
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16:48:22	<johnjay>	i tried installing something with cabal and it says error couldn't find opt from llvm. but i have llvm. is llvm required for haskell packages?
16:48:48	<monochrom>	No.
16:49:13	<geekosaur>	er, that depends. if you are on an m1 mac and you are using 8.10.7 to build natively, you need llvm
16:49:38	<monochrom>	Sorry.
16:49:49	<geekosaur>	9.2.1 has direct-to-asm compilation, but recently it was found to be broken
16:49:59	<johnjay>	i don't know what i want to do. i just typed 'cabal install -j <name>' because it said to
16:50:08	<johnjay>	do i have to build natively?
16:50:32	<johnjay>	and yes this is an m1 mac. XD
16:50:50	<johnjay>	seems to have a few bugs. scikit-learn doesn't install for instance
16:51:00	<johnjay>	although somehow i got numpy
16:51:12	<geekosaur>	if you install an x86 cabal you can use: arch x86 cabal install -j whatever
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16:51:53	<johnjay>	ah so that's how you run one of the parts in a universal binary
16:51:55	<geekosaur>	but you'll have to install x86 versions of any C library dependencies, and if you're using e.g. brew to install such dependencies it will relaly want to install native versions instead of x86
16:52:10	<johnjay>	yes i'm using brew. it's like you know my life story
16:52:27	<geekosaur>	pretty much everyone on a kmac does these days
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16:52:50	<geekosaur>	and ghc would only look for llc/opt when using -fllvm, which is only default on m1 macs
16:53:05	<geekosaur>	so it's not that hard to work out :)
16:53:57	<johnjay>	i see
16:54:26	<johnjay>	i tried briefly to install things from the app store. but quickly gave that up
16:54:38	<johnjay>	brew and macports are the only alternatives i know of. not even sure if there's a native llvm you can get
16:54:49	<johnjay>	although clang is installed by default but pretends to be gcc for some reason
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16:57:23	<geekosaur>	yeh, apple does that. it's really confusing
16:57:44	<geekosaur>	and you have to install a full llvm via brew or macports because apple only provides part of it
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16:58:56	<sm>	what's the package failing to install ?
16:59:31	<johnjay>	some haskell project i wanted to look at with cabal
16:59:38	<johnjay>	never installed with cabal before
16:59:58	<johnjay>	and the readme doesn't say how to build it. should i read the stack manual to build it myself? or how do i do that
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17:07:33	<sm>	if you tell us more, I'd be willing to look at it a little more
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17:07:44	<sm>	otherwise it's hard to say
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17:16:09	<maerwald>	johnjay: llvm isn't added to path by default
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17:17:26	<maerwald>	on M1 it should be in /opt/llvm/bin or so
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17:19:51	<sm>	I have a homebrew `llvm` package installed, which provides `clang` and `llvm` binaries, don't know if that's normal
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17:27:12	<johnjay>	yes i recompiled with llvm in the path and it seemed to work
17:27:27	<johnjay>	what i meant is i thought ghc was the compiler so why is it using llvm
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17:27:52	<johnjay>	also i can link you the project when i'm back on my m1
17:28:03	<johnjay>	it had some .yaml and a .cabal or something file
17:28:23	<johnjay>	(meaning in the cloned git repo)
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17:33:05	<maerwald>	johnjay: native codegen for aarch64 M1 isn't in 8.10.7 yet, so it uses the llvm backend
17:34:28	<johnjay>	oh ok. i assume this is somehow plugging into the llvm framework then
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17:34:54	<johnjay>	should i be using stack or cabal for something cloned directly from github?
17:35:22	<WhateverRabbit>	you can use it
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17:36:02	<maerwald>	johnjay: depends on the project
17:36:04	<sclv>	ghc has a llvm backend to the compiler, and that's the only way you will be able to compile for M1 in the short term
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17:36:17	<johnjay>	it had a stack.yaml if i recall and also a somethingsomething.cabal
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17:36:25	<sclv>	both stack and cabal can drive ghc in llvm mode, so it doesn't really matter
17:36:37	<maerwald>	there's no native stack M1 binary yet, though
17:36:40	<johnjay>	ok
17:36:50	<maerwald>	so it may pick x86 arch and so weird stuff
17:36:52	<sclv>	for native compilation you'll want to stick to cabal/ghcup since that supports M1 properly -- but again, that native compilation is busted until the next ghc patch release
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17:37:37	<johnjay>	i think i have ghc8 something
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17:37:44	<johnjay>	you said it needs a patch update for M1 aarch64?
17:37:46	<johnjay>	ghc that is
17:37:54	<maerwald>	only if you want to use native codegen
17:38:20	<geekosaur>	I said that earlier, 8.10.7 uses llvm and works, 9.2.1 has native codegen but is broken
17:38:27	<geekosaur>	bugs they only found after release
17:38:42	<johnjay>	ah ok. so if I did have 9.2.1 would it try to native codegen and fail?
17:38:49	<johnjay>	yeah 8.10
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17:38:51	<johnjay>	whatever brew has
17:39:01	<geekosaur>	it would produce a binary that would probably crash
17:39:08	<johnjay>	oof
17:39:44	<maerwald>	https://discourse.haskell.org/t/psa-9-2-1-aarch64-miscompilation/3638/2
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18:02:20	<f-a>	hello, I am asking a friend to test something on his win machine with the new io manager (-with-rtsopts=--io-manager=native). I am getting a series of errors like this: {handle: <stdout>}: handleToHANDLE: inappropriate type (not a file HANDLE)
18:02:34	<f-a>	any idea where I should start to debug this?
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18:04:11	<geekosaur>	not sure you'll find any windows experts in here, reddit or the discourse may be better
18:04:51	<f-a>	sensible idea, also I should of course read carefully the release notes
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18:05:16	<geekosaur>	but it being stdout makes me wonder… is this a gui program by any chance? it won't have proper stdin/stdout/stderr in that case
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18:05:29	<f-a>	this is a terminal application geekosaur
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18:05:53	<f-a>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ansi-terminal-game using this
18:07:25	<maerwald>	ghc version?
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18:07:36	<f-a>	x86_64-mingw32 ghc-Version {versionBranch = [9,2], versionTags = []}
18:07:50	<f-a>	(the one my friend is using to test this)
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18:08:46	<f-a>	9.2.1 precisely
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19:16:57	<f-a>	geekosaur: in case you care, http://www.ariis.it/link/t/paste1132317-0 this very minimal example fails with the same error, I will file a bug against ansi-terminal
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19:17:57	<f-a>	although it is a bit puzzling that all it takes to fail is a simple `clearScreen`
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19:49:52	<int-e>	f-a: Hmm the error comes from here, https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/libraries/base/GHC/IO/Handle/Windows.hs#L216-226 ...so part of the story is that GHC distinguishes between console handles and native handles, both of which embed a HANDLE (See https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/libraries/base/GHC/IO/Windows/Handle.hsc#L106 ) but that code only supports the...
19:49:58	<int-e>	...NativeHandle case.
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19:50:45	<int-e>	I don't know whether that's an oversight or a conscious decision; however, given the lack of comments about it I assume the former.
19:50:58	<geekosaur>	that sounds kinda pointless when part of the intent is to be able to use 16-bit functions for console I/O
19:51:15	<geekosaur>	instead of the chcp hack
19:51:15	<int-e>	disclaimer: I'm just reading code, not running anything
19:51:39	<viole>	I have a function validate :: ByteString -> Either String Address, Address constructor not exported, and I want to declare a couple of costant addresses in top level. I could do case validate bs of Right x -> x, but I'd like to avoid such thing. I agree this is bad practice but only for external data; for stuff defined literally that are known to be ok, I should be able to do it partially and
19:51:42	<viole>	in case something's not right, it shouldn't compile. What's the recommended way to do this?
19:53:02	<int-e>	the whole logic was introduced in this commit two years ago, so it's relatively new: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/commit/356dc3feae967b1c361130f1f356ef9ad6a693e4
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19:55:00	<maerwald>	viole: should be possible with TH
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21:17:39	<energizer>	is there a way to pattern match a concatenation into left++right \| left++mid:right ? maybe there's some package that supports this?
21:19:43	<dsal>	It's not super clear what you're trying to do. Are you wanting a snoc list? You can't pattern match infinite lists, but you can do some guarding.
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21:20:14	<energizer>	in this case i have a finite list
21:20:28	<dsal>	Sure, but you can't tell the compiler that.
21:21:00	<dsal>	You can make specific patterns for the cardinalities you expect, but I think you're doing something else, but I don't know what it is. :)
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21:21:26	<energizer>	i want it to work for any finite size
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21:21:54	<dsal>	Sure, just define `it` a bit better. 2^32 is a finite size, but you probably don't want to pattern match it.
21:22:05	<energizer>	why not?
21:22:27	<energizer>	i can take the left and right halves of that, no?
21:23:31	<dsal>	As long as you don't mind allocating 2^31 new elements, I guess. But you're definitely using the wrong data structure for whatever you're trying to do.
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21:24:32	<dsal>	ViewPatterns will kind of get you part of the way there, but it'd be easier if you stated your problem a bit better and used the right tools to solve it. :)
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21:31:24	<energizer>	say i have a tuple of 1000 and i want to define leftHalfView
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21:34:06	<energizer>	i guess it's not allowed to say (1,2)++(3,4) anyway
21:34:16	<geekosaur>	tuples are not lists
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21:34:58	<geekosaur>	and the maximum number of elements in a tuple is 63, not that you can do much with such tuples
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21:36:08	<energizer>	maybe fixed-vector is better for this conversation?
21:36:53	<geekosaur>	it's still not clear what you are actually trying to do.l or what problem you are trying to solve
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21:38:24	<dsal>	I keep guessing, but if my guesses are wrong, it's just going to be more confusing. Can you describe your goal, energizer?
21:39:17	<energizer>	pattern matching is useful for decomposing a collection of data and i want to decompose a finite-length sequence into a its left and right halves. the goal seems straightfoward, no?
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21:40:07	<geekosaur>	only if it is specifically constructed as left and right halves
21:40:09	<dsal>	Screwdrivers are useful for adjusting screws. If you clamp two of them together with vice grips, you can use them to loosen bolts.
21:40:48	<dsal>	Things like Set and Map can be chopped in ~half because that's how the data structure was defined.
21:41:07	<dsal>	If you do that with something like a list, the left half is going to be super expensive to construct, but the right half will be cheap once you get there.
21:41:19	<energizer>	[1,2]++[3]++[4] isn't constructed from left and right halves but we still know what it means to decompose it into left and right halves
21:41:34	<geekosaur>	"we" do but the compiler doesn't
21:41:50	<geekosaur>	and it's a list so it will be expensive regardless
21:42:25	<geekosaur>	lists are not designed to be split into halves
21:42:35	<dsal>	Data.Sequence might be a better starting point.
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21:43:17	<dsal>	𝑂(log(min(𝑖,𝑛−𝑖))) split isn't too bad.
21:47:04	<[exa]>	energizer: a bit more generally, "half of some sequence" isn't a constant-looking pattern, right?
21:47:39	<energizer>	[exa]: constant-looking?
21:48:49	<[exa]>	like, "everytime the same"
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21:51:24	<[exa]>	moreover, no matter how cool the patternmatching looks, it's basically a precise deconstruction of the constructed datastructure. If you didn't construct the sequence explicitly by joining 2 halves with a special half-and-half constructor, you can't match it because it's not going to magically appear there
21:53:25	<[exa]>	anyway -- more practically -- Vectors support creating any kind of slices (incl. halves) in O(1), so I'd advise trying these. :]
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21:56:49	<hololeap>	data SomeX = forall t. SomeX (X t)
21:57:02	<hololeap>	data SomeY = forall t. SomeY (Y t)
21:57:55	<hololeap>	how do I write a function that will handle X and Y given any t, where it is the same t for both types
21:58:45	<dsal>	That sounds like a type class.
21:59:08	<dsal>	Otherwise, "how do I write a function that works on any type that contains an Int"
22:00:33	<monochrom>	You will never be told that you have two values of the same t type. In fact existential typing decrees that you have two different t's.
22:02:37	<monochrom>	The solution is to completely redesign your design based on to what extent you actually need this.
22:02:53	<dsal>	Good general advice.
22:02:59	<geekosaur>	I call xy problem. what problem are you actually trying to solve?
22:03:34	<monochrom>	Heh I avoided saying "xy" because this one literally has an X and a Y >:)
22:03:41	<hololeap>	ok, I think I see how I might do this
22:03:44	<dsal>	Yeah, it's got both X, Y, and SomeX, SomeY
22:03:53	<hololeap>	I can try to explain...
22:04:41	<hololeap>	problem involves a binary tree which is parsed from input, and a path (also parsed from input) which serves as a key to locate a single node
22:06:21	<monochrom>	That doesn't sound like needing any polymorphism in the first place.
22:06:45	<hololeap>	I made a skeleton tree type Tree, which just stores the shape of the tree, and I'm using DataKinds to prevent a path being constructed that would be out-of-bounds
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22:07:07	<hololeap>	I already wrote my entire program using this and now I hit the part where I write the parser...
22:08:17	<hololeap>	but I think I see how I can do it, still. 1) parse the tree as SomeTree 2) parse the path within the `withSomeTree` function
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22:12:39	<seanparsons>	Hmmm, looks like Hackage has done a dead to me...
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22:14:23	<dolio>	Yeah, 503.
22:17:18	<ddb>	int-e: ok, so I have lambdabot running famously, but when I try to connect to irc I get the following error
22:17:20	<ddb>	lambdabot> irc-connect tilde club.tilde.chat 6697 lambdabot
22:17:22	<ddb>	[ERROR] : <socket: 12>: hGetLine: end of file
22:17:54	<int-e>	6697? it doesn't do TLS
22:18:24	<ddb>	ah gotcha
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22:18:53	<int-e>	I'm using this for lambdabot here: socat TCP4-LISTEN:6667,bind=127.0.0.1,reuseaddr,fork,forever OPENSSL:irc.libera.chat:6697
22:19:10	<int-e>	(and the bot connects to 127.0.0.1:6667)
22:20:38	<int-e>	I've also heard of people using a bouncer (znc?)
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22:24:52	<ddb>	I'm not familiar with socat, but I think I can do plaintext on localhost in my situation
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22:26:43	<statusbot>	Status update: Hackage and many www services are down due to host connectivity issues. We hope this will be resolved shortly. -- http://status.haskell.org/pages/incident/537c07b0cf1fad5830000093/618eea229604e60540fd03ad
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22:39:08	<statusbot>	Status update: Connectivity at our host appears to have been restored. -- http://status.haskell.org/pages/incident/537c07b0cf1fad5830000093/618eea229604e60540fd03ad
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22:46:05	<ddb>	alright, getting close now, it's connected, but how do I get it to join a room?
22:46:24	<ddb>	I tried /invite, but that did not seem to work
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22:47:19	<geekosaur>	http://users.ece.cmu.edu/~allbery/lambdabot/COMMANDS.more
22:47:37	<geekosaur>	I think that's still the only reference to lambdabot admin commands
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22:48:29	<dsal>	heh. I spent a while trying to parse that as CoMonads, no wait, it's spelled wrong. CommaNDS? What's NDS?
22:48:38	<geekosaur>	and no, I don't think lambdabot knows how to respond to an /invite
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22:50:06	<dsal>	I'm having a bit of trouble understanding `review`. It seems strange and unnecessary.
22:50:12	<dsal>	> review _Just 3
22:50:14	<lambdabot>	Just 3
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22:51:02	<ddb>	hmm now how to become an admin
22:51:12	<energizer>	(1+2)+(3+4) which side gets evaluated first?
22:51:48	<geekosaur>	undefined, since it's a pure expression
22:52:04	<geekosaur>	the compiler is free to pick any evaluation order
22:52:06	<dsal>	It's possible none of that gets evaluated.
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22:54:07	<monochrom>	dsal, a long time ago when I was learning unix, the textbook explained that uucp is acronym for "Unix-to-Unix CoPy". For a long long time I was splitting that camelcase CoPy into "co" "py" and wondering what would "py" mean such that it had a co- version called "co-py".
22:54:48	<energizer>	python
22:54:58	<dsal>	haha. And now we have a new python derivative that does everything backwards.
22:55:19	<geekosaur>	ddb, the console and config file are always run as admin. you can use that to add users to the admin acl, which should also be documented (@admin +, iirc, but it's been a decade)
22:56:29	<geekosaur>	note that lambdabot does not check user registrations, so for safety you should only add users who are registered with nickserv and have protected their accounts
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23:11:30	<Franciman>	been trying to write a sexpr parser in Zig
23:11:36	<Franciman>	it is insanely fast and small
23:11:50	<Franciman>	what are the usual techniques to improve Haskell's parsing?
23:11:54	<Franciman>	I am using attoparsec
23:11:58	<Franciman>	for example
23:12:08	<Franciman>	i give up on size, because ehe
23:12:11	<Franciman>	it's not fair
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23:12:30	<Franciman>	haskell is a dinosaur if compared with zig, talking about runtimes. so it's unfair
23:12:51	<Franciman>	to improve haskell's parsing speed
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23:32:43	<maerwald[m]>	<Franciman> "what are the usual techniques to..." <- Streamly can be really fast, but needs a lot of library knowledge
23:33:07	<maerwald[m]>	The fastest is an ad-hoc xeno approach, using only bytestring functions that use memchr under the hood like elemIndex
23:33:31	<maerwald[m]>	attoparsec for example is really slow compared to that
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23:35:32	<maerwald[m]>	Simple line parsing is slow even in attoparsec
23:35:32	<maerwald[m]>	https://github.com/hasufell/parselines/blob/master/app/Main.hs
23:35:54	<maerwald[m]>	Someone tweaked the streamly code to make it almost as fast as the bytestring variant afair, but I don't have the code
23:37:41	<maerwald[m]>	streamly is lacking partial parsers where you can reset to some position in the chunked input array. That would allow to combine memchr based primitives I believe
23:38:24	<maerwald[m]>	There are some non-idiomatic workarounds of course, but that's hairv
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23:38:55	<dsal>	I find it strange that Aeson returns a `Result` type that looks just like `Either String` but doesn't offer any conversions. I wonder how many codebases convert that to `Either String` or `Maybe`
23:41:55	<monochrom>	But I would use eitherDecode which gives an Either.
23:42:15	<monochrom>	I don't think I ever needed to touch Result.
23:42:57	<maerwald[m]>	Maybe it has interesting instances?
23:45:37	<janus>	how do i find the minimum calculated using a custom function, but with the ability to recover the original item?
23:46:36	<janus>	i was thinking to make a newtype and have one item be 'Min a' and the other be 'a' but feel like i am reinventing the wheel
23:47:03	<monochrom>	Something about ArgMin or Arg.
23:47:43	<monochrom>	in Data.Semigroup
23:48:45	<janus>	oooh perfect!
23:48:49	<monochrom>	:)
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23:55:57	<dsal>	If you use fromJSON, you get a Result. It just seems odd to have a custom type for that. I don't know why it'd need to be less powerful.
23:57:13	<dsal>	It might have something interesting. I'm looking at a piece of code that converts it to a `Maybe` and wonder how often that function is written.
23:57:37	<monochrom>	But I don't use fromJSON. I use eitherDecode.
23:58:29	<monochrom>	I bet the vibe is "Result is internal and/or if you bypass part of normal aeson workflow".
23:58:39	<dsal>	Sure, those just do different things. This codebase I'm using has three different uses of fromJSON
23:59:00	<dsal>	Making it slightly more annoying, I guess...
23:59:03	<Franciman>	thanks maerwald[m] awesome

All times are in UTC on 2021-11-12.