Logs on 2021-11-14 (liberachat/#haskell)

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01:15:55	<sm>	soo.. haskell numbers defeat me again. I want to raise to a power, like ** 1.5. How do I make a `Floating a` ?
01:16:24	<sm>	also, which is the partial conversion function that should be avoided ? fromIntegral, fromInteger.. ?
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01:25:02	<sm>	the answer seems to be: more fromIntegral
01:25:53	<sm>	`tot + round ( fromIntegral tot * 1 ** ((fromIntegral sp - 15) / 10) )`
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02:04:24	<monochrom>	@quote monochrom fromIntegral
02:04:24	<lambdabot>	monochrom says: You've got an Int / But you want Double / Who do you call? / "fromIntegral!"
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06:35:45	<energizer>	takeWhile f = foldr (\x acc -> if f x then x : acc else []) []
06:36:15	<energizer>	can someone explain how that's proportional to the length of the output (not the length of the input)
06:36:35	<energizer>	i assume it's because of nonstrict, but i can't get my head around it
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06:38:31	<energizer>	ok maybe i get it now
06:38:38	<energizer>	that's crazy
06:39:52	<energizer>	..it is because of nonstrict, right?
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07:24:40	<c_wraith>	energizer: yes. It's because as soon as (f x) in the lambda returns false, acc is unused. Recursion only happens in folder when acc is used.
07:24:47	<c_wraith>	*in foldr
07:24:56	<c_wraith>	I'm obviously thinking phonetically
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07:40:00	<energizer>	ok
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07:49:08	<int-e>	c_wraith: fold-arr ;-)
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08:08:11	<anna_user2_>	I'm a beginner and I don't know how to call my function. I get "The IO action ‘main’ is not defined in module ‘Main’
08:08:11	<anna_user2_>	"
08:09:51	<anna_user2_>	error is pasted on tomsemeding
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08:11:49	<gentauro>	anna_user2_: do you expose it? Like this? `module Main (main) where`
08:13:43	<anna_user2_>	I just said "main :: IO()" and "main = return()" and it compiles and links now. IDK if it is doing anything. I would like to load up an array and pass it to my funciton.
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08:16:19	<anna_user2_>	Maybe I say "data = ..."?
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08:22:30	<anna_user2_>	Can anyone please tell me how to create a small array of integers?
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08:24:59	<anna_user2_>	OK I may have created an array. I would like to dispaly it to the console
08:26:51	<gentauro>	anna_user2_: if you are using `return`, then you are a `function` of the Monad type-class
08:28:03	<gentauro>	please start the `interpreter` (if you use `stack`, it's like this: `stack ghci`). Then you can type: `:info Monad` and you will see: `class Applicative m => Monad m where … return :: a -> m a`
08:28:04	<anna_user2_>	I don't know if I need a Monday type-class. I just want to load up an array and pass it with an integer to my funciton, which inserts the integer
08:28:23	<gentauro>	so the correct syntax would be: `main = do return ()` as it seems that you are using `do-notation`
08:28:41	<anna_user2_>	Since I have no idea what a Monad is...
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08:29:22	<gentauro>	anna_user2_: then I would suggest you read this "online tutorial" first :) http://learnyouahaskell.com/chapters
08:30:30	gentauro	I hope SPJ before leaving to play Fortninte that he renames the Monad type in Haskell to Monday :)
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08:49:37	<tomsmeding>	Foldable -> Friday, Traversable -> Thursday?
08:49:53	<tomsmeding>	or rather Functor -> Friday
08:51:23	<[exa]>	constructing a haskellish advent calendar?
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08:52:55	<tomsmeding>	[exa]: https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/lchaskell/2021/11/14?id=271388#trid271388
08:53:56	<[exa]>	ah rofl.
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10:34:27	<gentauro>	tomsmeding: I like it :)
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12:31:44	<AndreasK__>	Anyone have a good implementation of a "sized IntSet". Basically IntSet with size being O(1)
12:32:36	<xerox>	size is O(1) in IntSet
12:33:07	<xerox>	oh dang it's not!
12:33:15	<Hecate>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/containers-0.6.5.1/docs/Data-IntSet.html#v:size
12:33:18	<Hecate>	nope
12:33:19	<Hecate>	:'D
12:33:39	<xerox>	I had this one in mind https://www.stackage.org/haddock/lts-18.16/containers-0.6.5.1/src/Data-Set-Internal.html#size
12:33:42	<AndreasK__>	xerox: If only it would be that easy :D
12:34:00	<[exa]>	O(1) size?
12:34:01	<xerox>	whereas theirs does work https://www.stackage.org/haddock/lts-18.16/containers-0.6.5.1/src/Data-IntSet-Internal.html#size
12:34:35	<[exa]>	can you just keep a counter next to the set?
12:34:38	<AndreasK__>	The code I'm looking at currently uses what amounts to `Data.Set Int` which isn't anywhere near optimal.
12:35:03	<AndreasK__>	[exa]: Yes. But the question is then how do you update the counter?`insert doesn't tell you if it modified the set.
12:35:22	<[exa]>	yeah you need to have a special insert that tells you :/
12:35:49	<[exa]>	anyway, there are weight-balanced trees somewhere in haskell (at least in Set), getting a size there is O(1)
12:36:01	<AndreasK__>	[exa]: Then there are more complex operations like union etc. It's not trivial. Which is why I would rather just use someone elses work haha
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12:36:40	<AndreasK__>	[exa]: Yeah `Data.Set Int` works. But everything except size is just soo much slower than IntSet
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12:38:44	<[exa]>	AndreasK__: btw what's your usecase? there might be a specialzied approach
12:39:07	<AndreasK__>	[exa]: Looking at optimizing https://github.com/ghc/ghc/blob/c60652929ebd2510e52c05a2f61d52e2bf1846ad/compiler/GHC/Cmm/Expr.hs#L313
12:40:19	<AndreasK__>	[exa]: The set is used in dataflow analysis for things like liveness, we check if facts changed by checking if the size changed
12:40:34	<[exa]>	the RegSet is relatively tiny right? (less than 100 elements?)
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12:41:14	<AndreasK__>	Not guaranteed but often yes.
12:43:36	<[exa]>	in that case you might just want to take a vector of ones/zeroes and some magic with fromEnum
12:45:57	<[exa]>	running through a continuous array of ~100 elements is usually faster on average than just jumping 2 pointers
12:46:55	<AndreasK__>	Given that as you traverse the programm you can encounter any "number" going forward I'm not sure how to construct such a magic function unless we go all the way to using a hashmap.
12:48:18	<[exa]>	I understood that GlobalReg and LocalReg are "finite" right?
12:48:46	<AndreasK__>	LocalReg represents virtual registers, of which there can be arbitrary many
12:49:00	<AndreasK__>	I've seen code where we can have >3k
12:49:18	<[exa]>	ah okay
12:49:49	<AndreasK__>	GlobalReg is properly finite. But that's also not really causing performance issues.
12:50:23	<AndreasK__>	Yeah otherwise you could just compute a static mapping from Reg <-> Int
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12:54:21	<AndreasK__>	I think in this case such a magic function would need to use a map internally, and you would end up with the same problem in a very roundabout way.
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13:34:47	<yin>	do peano encoded nats "collapse" as they are evaluated? will `n > 9` be faster after i do `n > 7`?
13:35:21	<yin>	i know "collapse" may not be the right word here
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13:36:39	<hpc>	the term to google is "thunk"
13:37:23	<hpc>	basically before something is evaluated, it's stored as a chunk of code that would compute the actual value
13:37:36	<hpc>	then once it's evaluated, as long as it stays in memory it doesn't have to be recomputed
13:38:05	<hpc>	how long it stays in memory is complicated, and what actually gets evaluated by each expression is complicated
13:38:47	<yin>	i guess what im asking is if `data Nat = Z \| Succ Nat` will behave the same as `iterate succ 0`
13:39:06	<hpc>	oh, no it won't
13:39:17	<hpc>	you'll always have that chain of Succ
13:39:38	<hpc>	an equivalent operation would be turning a linked list into an array automatically
13:39:48	<hpc>	which ghc also doesn't do
13:40:10	<hpc>	however, you do get a built-in Natural type
13:40:32	<hpc>	which uses libgmp, so it's not a peano nat
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13:43:14	<yin>	is that GHC.TypeLits.Nat ?
13:44:25	<hpc>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.0.0/docs/Numeric-Natural.html#t:Natural
13:44:46	<hpc>	that one is for type-level nonsense :D
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13:54:31	<yin>	ok
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13:55:10	<yin>	is there a way i can guarantee my program is total?
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13:57:28	<yin>	meaning no `undefined`
13:57:59	<hpc>	that's equivalent to the halting problem, so no
13:58:06	<hpc>	maybe someday
13:58:27	<hpc>	there are other languages that deliberately fall just short of turing-completeness in order to have that guarantee though
13:58:48	<hpc>	they're usually used for theorem proving, but that's a whooooole other topic
13:59:11	<yin>	ah, no. i'm perfectly ok with non-termination. what i mean is no `error` or `undefined` as a result
13:59:51	<hpc>	ah, then sort of
14:00:14	<hpc>	you can have ghc warn on non-exhaustive patterns
14:00:31	<hpc>	and iirc error/undefined are covered by the safe haskell stuff
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14:00:51	<yin>	what is "the safe haskell stuff"?
14:01:08	<yin>	is there a safe prelude?
14:01:14	<hpc>	you'll have to google it, i don't remember everything
14:01:50	<hpc>	ah, nvm, that doesn't cover error/undefined
14:01:57	<hpc>	it's just for type safety stuff
14:03:25	<yin>	i see
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14:45:05	<albet70>	could fmap or >>= break in []? like in other languages "for i in alist: if i==0: break"
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14:51:22	<geekosaur>	fmap can't really, althouhg you could fake it with a flag in the "accumulator"
14:51:55	<geekosaur>	>>= will stop that path if you fail, but it will still try other paths; this is what leads to "nondeterminism"
14:53:23	<albet70>	oh traverse may do the trick
14:54:55	<albet70>	break a loop or iteration is a very common need in most languages, and it's hard in haskell...
14:55:23	<davean>	albet70: its not hard - those aren't loops tohugh
14:55:54	<davean>	Theres nothing even sequential about them
14:56:07	<davean>	there as parallel as they are sequential
14:56:19	<davean>	Theres no order at all, and they might all happen at the same time
14:56:24	<davean>	THEY ARE NOT LOOPS
14:57:10	<davean>	There are not even related to loops in any meaningful way
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14:57:47	<albet70>	for i in alist: if i==0: break else: f(i) if there's no 0 in alist, f will apply on every element, you say this is not loop?
14:58:13	<davean>	it is a loop, fmap and >>= are not
14:58:23	<davean>	in any way
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14:59:02	<albet70>	when they meet []
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15:00:03	<davean>	I'm not sure what you mean by that, but if you're saying when they're on lists, no still no where related to a loop
15:00:05	<davean>	ENTIRELY different
15:00:15	<davean>	if you want a loop, use a loop
15:00:16	<albet70>	when m~[], what's the fmap's behavior?
15:00:35	<geekosaur>	sorry, I was thinking fold earlier, no9t fmap
15:00:38	<davean>	Nothing at all related to a loop
15:01:02	<geekosaur>	fmap can't be treated as a loop, as davean said. and >>= "follows all possible paths at once"
15:01:28	<davean>	I can talk aboutspecific implimentations, but fmap fmaps, which is closer related to opengl than a loop
15:01:31	<davean>	opengl has projections
15:01:35	<davean>	fmap is projective
15:01:49	<davean>	the actual evaluations, in GHC practice, will happen when they're looked at
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15:01:58	<davean>	the order is entirely undefined
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15:03:20	<davean>	haskell has loops, if you want that, use that
15:05:08	<davean>	albet70: fmap is fairly closely related to projecting 3D objects into 2D space - this might be worth thinking on
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15:07:36	<albet70>	what's the fmap function definition about []? I can't find it
15:08:26	<albet70>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mtl-2.2.2/docs/Control-Monad-List.html#v:fmap
15:09:50	<geekosaur>	https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/libraries/base-4.16.0.0/Prelude.html#g:10 leads to a list of instances for Functor, all of which have Source links
15:10:20	<geekosaur>	which for instance Functor [] leads to https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/html/libraries/base-4.16.0.0/src/GHC.Base.html#line-1158
15:11:08	<geekosaur>	("g:10" is "Monads and functors" in the sidebar for Prelude)
15:12:04	<geekosaur>	and I knew to look in Prelude because you don't have to import anything to use fmap
15:13:33	<albet70>	map f (x:xs) = f x : map f xs
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15:14:04	<davean>	yep
15:15:15	<albet70>	it's recursive, not iteration
15:15:28	<davean>	Iteration is a special case of recursion
15:15:38	<geekosaur>	also that's because lists are defined recursively
15:16:03	<geekosaur>	data [] a = [] \| a : [] a
15:16:12	<davean>	also thats not performing the fmap the way you probably think of it, its declaring what it is, and setting up the computation
15:16:19	<albet70>	"davean :Iteration is a special case of recursion", why you say that?
15:16:32	<davean>	Because all iteration is recursion but not all recursion is iteration
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15:18:15	<albet70>	wait a sec, most languages support iteration, but not support TCO, you can't say all iteration is recursion
15:18:37	<davean>	Yes I can, look at what the loop is
15:18:40	<davean>	open up your assembler
15:18:47	<geekosaur>	tco does not define recursion, it merely limits how the language can optimize it
15:19:02	<davean>	your language HAPPENS to optimize loops specificly
15:19:07	<geekosaur>	tco is tail call optimization
15:19:16	<davean>	but if you look at the code generated, it is SPECIFICLY recursion
15:19:27	<davean>	thats the ONLY IMPLIMENTATION
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15:20:57	<davean>	They just don't have the power to optimize recursion in general so they give yo uspecial cases they CAN optimize
15:21:40	<davean>	and now we're out side of haskell in to basic CS
15:21:56	<davean>	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_recursive_function
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15:23:51	<davean>	but seriously, open up the assembly your compilers generate, what they'll have is a small piece of code for the body of the loop, and a (conditional) jump from the end to the start (or they'll have a condition at the start to leave it, and a non-conditional jump at the end)
15:24:12	<davean>	whats a jump? Its a TCO function call when tis to its parent function
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15:24:51	<yin>	this pen is blue, so it follows that all pens are blue
15:25:35	<davean>	yin: sunrise problem :)
15:25:47	<davean>	I believe in this case its 50% probably all pens are blue?
15:26:35	<davean>	(Ok, that s a VERY reductive comment, but yours is too so ...)
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15:27:21	<maerwald>	davean: are you a Popper fan too?
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15:29:21	<davean>	maerwald: No idea what you're even talking about so no
15:30:33	<yin>	the criticism of inductive reasoning i think
15:31:04	<maerwald>	yeah, specifically "The Logic of Scientific Discovery"
15:31:15	<maerwald>	where he talks about the sunrise problem as well
15:31:40	<davean>	the sunrise problem is very well known in statistics?
15:31:47	<davean>	Its a classic problem
15:32:21	<yin>	maerwald: is davean's method inductive or deductive though?
15:33:02	<yin>	did he confirm his theory by looking at the assembly ode or did he derive it from observation?
15:33:21	<yin>	s/ ode/code
15:34:49	<maerwald>	yin: well, Popper didn't really say that induction is wrong. Inductive thoughts are the basis for ideas and theories, it's just that they carry little value as a naked argument.
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15:35:40	<maerwald>	he called it the "irrational moment" that happens when you "think up" a theory
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15:37:01	<davean>	I like the implication we have rational moments
15:37:04	<maerwald>	haha
15:37:06	<davean>	Its really optimistic
15:37:52	<geekosaur>	does it imply that, or that we have other kinds of irrational ity at other times?
15:38:06	<davean>	Good point
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15:39:41	<maerwald>	Well, the idea was to very clearly distinguish the construction of a theory from the discourse of whether it has merits, especially in order to allow and encourage more radical scientific theories, without getting nonsense like "how did you think of that?".
15:39:59	<maerwald>	Like, it's really none of your business :D
15:42:27	<davean>	The more interesting question is how you didn't think of things
15:42:31	<davean>	thats where improvements are to be made
15:42:42	<davean>	like understanding the computational hierarchy in albet70's case
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16:39:29	<yin>	oh no i had to get away for a bit. i was enjoying the conversation
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16:40:36	<yin>	davean: i'm curious to know in what context is "all iteration recursion"
16:49:00	<Rembane_>	yin: All kinds of iteration can be expressed as recursion. Not the other way around though.
16:49:38	<Rembane_>	Hm... lets just assume I'm wrong about that and say that iteration = recursion.
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16:51:45	<yin>	all right. but can we have iteration without recursion?
16:52:12	<jkaye>	yin, in Haskell, or in general? I assume the former
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16:53:08	<yin>	my question is in which contexts can we make that argument and in which we can't
16:53:25	<c_wraith>	it's mostly a math thing
16:54:00	<Rembane_>	In C we can have iteration without recursion.
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16:55:29	<yin>	Rembane_: davean's argument is that if you look at the assembly code you'll always see it as recursion. isn't that also true for C?
16:57:41	<Rembane_>	yin: It is? I gotta read some backlog.
16:57:43	<c_wraith>	It's not really very interesting to argue about
16:58:03	<c_wraith>	because to make any headway, you need to define "iteration" and "recursion" precisely.
16:58:14	<jkaye>	You could write the loop in assembly without recursion using conditional jumps
16:58:17	<c_wraith>	And doing that generally removes any questions
16:58:20	<jkaye>	So, I'm not sure that's true?
16:58:43	<jkaye>	c_wraith, yeah pretty much what I'm saying as well, I think it's definitional
16:59:02	<davean>	jkaye: conditional jumps are conditional calls - a call is just a jump with register push
16:59:22	<jkaye>	And right there we get to c_wraith's point that it's all in the definition
16:59:23	<yin>	so my question becomes "what is the definitional difference between iteration and recursion we are assuming here?"
17:00:28	<jkaye>	Iteration and recursion are (I think) isomorphic in that they can freely be converted from one to the other. Saying one cannot exist without the other therefore I think doesn't make sense, since the definition of either could be written in terms of the other
17:00:44	<jkaye>	Regardless of which definitions we were to choose
17:00:54	<davean>	jkaye: you can't convert recursion (except primitive recursion) to loops
17:01:01	<yin>	^ this
17:01:41	<jkaye>	I'm fairly sure you can by using a stack. Could be mistaken
17:01:48	<davean>	primitive recursion is exactly what you can do with loops
17:01:59	<jkaye>	Can you show a situation that cannot be converted? We should be able to prove with contradiction if that is true
17:02:36	<geekosaur>	make sure you look at not only the definition of primitive recursion, but also why there is a difference
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17:02:58	<EvanR>	the least defined thing so far is "loops"
17:03:00	<yin>	i'm looking up the definition of loop
17:03:11	<yin>	EvanR: exactly
17:03:14	<EvanR>	primitive recursion is cool
17:03:31	<jkaye>	Also, unrelated to all of this, but does anyone have a better way to do this? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/MppfHUD5 Thinking both towards efficiency and de-duplication of code if possible
17:04:12	<jkaye>	This one is a little more complete in case it helps https://paste.tomsmeding.com/fbVa3VZE
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17:05:09	<EvanR>	I like how the idea of loops comes up in so many ways without needing a concrete definition
17:05:42	<Guest89>	j
17:07:36	<EvanR>	if the pesky professor didn't define algorithms as a finite list of steps for yadda yadda maybe we wouldn't need loops xD
17:08:19	<yin>	i'm curious to know how any usual definition of "loops" and "recursion" are different if we look at the actual way we run bits through logic gates. as i understand it, haskell translates recursive functions to loops wich can be then considered recursion
17:08:42	<hpc>	i wonder what the difference even is, between finite and infinite lists of steps
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17:09:21	<EvanR>	presumably you can't load an infinite list of steps on a computer-- oh
17:09:33	<Rembane_>	Decidability?
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17:10:12	<monochrom>	Doesn't an x86 CPU interprets your recursive asm code by a loop, and that counts as converting recursion to iteration?
17:10:24	<EvanR>	yin: insisting on considering bits in gates and programming terms and recursion theory all at the same time seems... confusing
17:10:25	<yin>	it's never finite if we consider that any "finite" computation outputs something, even if in the form of photons that are transmitted to our brain that then continues a (mostly believed) infinite computation of the world
17:10:42	<davean>	monochrom: x86 doesn't have loops - I know no real archs with loops
17:10:53	<davean>	It only has call/jump
17:10:54	<jkaye>	That's why I was saying that I think the question is somewhat meaningless
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17:11:13	<monochrom>	No I mean the microcode inside the CPU.
17:11:13	<yin>	monochrom: that's what i'm thinking, but by then we must consider a loop as something that's recurring in the machine
17:11:25	<jkaye>	davean, jump could easily be defined as a loop. You're saying "jump isn't loop" but you haven't shown why.
17:11:38	<EvanR>	first do you even have an understanding of the terms isolated to their own area
17:11:48	<EvanR>	before mixing them up and seeing if they explode
17:11:49	<davean>	jkaye: no it can't becasue its clearly mathametically more powerful
17:11:52	<jkaye>	You can't just keep saying "it is X" or "it is not X", there has to be a reason that's the case
17:12:11	<davean>	conditional jump is turing complete
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17:12:20	<yin>	EvanR: i don't (have an understanding of the terms isolater to their own area)
17:12:26	<jkaye>	davean, if I can transform one to the other in practical space, I don't really care about the "mathematical power" of it :)
17:12:29	<davean>	jkaye: its mostly I'm really bored by basic discussions
17:12:39	<EvanR>	after enough time and no input from the outside world, any program with finite memory has to repeat, i.e. The Big Loop xD
17:12:41	<jkaye>	As am I by circular logic
17:12:43	<davean>	jkaye: mathematical pwoer says you can't do the conversion though
17:12:52	<jkaye>	So let's prove it by contradiction!
17:13:03	<jkaye>	I am happy to be wrong here, it's an interesting thought exercise
17:13:19	<monochrom>	The following may be serious or may be trolling, I haven't decided yet: No, looping plus stack plus stack smashing is more powerful than recursion, you now even have call/cc.
17:13:24	<jkaye>	We need a (working, in code) recursion implementation that cannot be converted to an iterative form
17:13:33	<jkaye>	C or C++ should suffice
17:13:36	<dankey>	test
17:14:27	<davean>	jkaye: yes, and I'm saying that is a standard basic CS topic - I linked you to primative recursion which covers which ones can'ty
17:14:54	<davean>	if you can't even read, then see the ackermann function - the classic example
17:15:39	<EvanR>	in before someone questions the church turing thesis
17:15:47	<yin>	:D
17:16:07	<jkaye>	You have posted no links, and apparently cannot engage in conversation without degrading into whatever that was supposed to be. Probably not worth interacting with you I suppose
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17:16:21	<yin>	hey come on
17:16:27	<davean>	I'm really not interested in this interaction
17:16:30	<yin>	let's keep this entertaining
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17:16:44	<jkaye>	Sorry yin, not worth my time for someone like that :)
17:16:49	<jkaye>	I was having some fun too
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17:19:22	<yin>	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7sm9dzFtEI
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17:20:57	<monochrom>	http://www.vex.net/~trebla/compsci/imperative-functional.html
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17:23:03	<yin>	and between these two links i think we can call it a day
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17:24:59	<EvanR>	another gem from /~trebla/
17:25:07	<monochrom>	:)
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17:28:40	<Guest6622>	Hi, I'm not sure what keywords to search for: I'm looking for a typeclass family, that looks like Applicative&Monad, but has no pure/return or fmap
17:29:17	<davean>	what does that mean? what does it do? Maybe you mean something like semigroup/monoid?
17:29:23	<davean>	got something more concrete?
17:30:08	<EvanR>	a monad without pure is one thing but how could it not have fmap
17:30:11	<Guest6622>	Basically I want to keep all values inside the typeclass, don't want to be able to inject values (like return) or functions (like fmap)
17:30:26	<davean>	so how does it do anything at all?
17:30:27	<Franciman>	Guest6622: what about extracting things ?
17:30:37	<davean>	yah he could mean comonad
17:30:42	<Franciman>	can you have a function with type, w a -> a ?
17:30:47	<EvanR>	comonad has fmap
17:30:49	<Guest6622>	no extraction either
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17:31:37	<davean>	Guest6622: so the only thing I can think of is semigroup/monoid
17:31:44	<davean>	but I have no idea what you're attempting to do
17:32:19	<EvanR>	so Guest6622 wants myMethod :: MyClass m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b, but no fmap
17:32:42	<Guest6622>	I'm trying to ensure isolation between the world inside the typeclass and the world outside
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17:32:52	<EvanR>	I'm guessing there are no known laws to follow xD
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17:33:55	<EvanR>	since the correspondence between bind and join relies on fmap, and you don't want it, maybe you want join :: MyClass m => m (m a) -> m a instead?
17:33:55	<davean>	EvanR: but that injects a function?
17:34:22	<EvanR>	yeah it's not clear
17:34:37	<Guest6622>	EvanR: yes join seems like something I'd need
17:35:03	<EvanR>	It's hard to imagine using join a lot without fmap...
17:35:03	<Guest6622>	davean: could you elaborate? how does join inject a function?
17:36:20	<davean>	EvanR talked about >>=
17:38:17	<EvanR>	maybe you don't want a typeclass in the first place, it would be easier to know if you gave a better picture of the interface
17:38:52	<Guest6622>	as I imagine it, bind would no allow arbitrary function injection, like fmap, only a pre-defined list of API functions, that would allow controlled entry into the type
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17:39:44	<EvanR>	no you can use any function with the right type
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17:40:04	<Guest6622>	EvanR: possibly. The basic idea is: I want to build a world, with no entry or exit into "normal" haskell world
17:40:06	<davean>	he could name the functions in an associated data
17:41:20	<Guest6622>	EvanR: right, but if there's no return, you cannot create arbitrary functions that generate values inside the closed type, only combine functions from the API
17:42:13	<EvanR>	functions aren't what let you arbitrarily work on the type, that's determined by the type itself. Like do you expose the constructors or hide them and only expose operators
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17:42:51	<EvanR>	user functions given to bind or fmap can't do anything not allowed by the type's API
17:42:55	<Guest6622>	a real world usage I can think of is an HSM or GPU, where you build up a world inside a separate system
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17:43:48	<EvanR>	oh yeah, sort of like compiling to a different category by conal
17:44:01	<Guest6622>	the type itself would not have constructors
17:44:29	<EvanR>	without changing the compiler you can't really stop the user form using haskell functions wherever they want
17:45:02	<EvanR>	within the code of some value
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17:46:48	<EvanR>	but maybe look at how this guy did it https://hackage.haskell.org/package/atom
17:49:10	<EvanR>	it looks like you write an Atom () action which when passed to compile, generates C code
17:49:29	<EvanR>	so it's ok if haskell code runs during that
17:53:09	<Guest6622>	yes, this looks like an instance for what I'd like. I was hoping for a higher level abstraction that would cover the general case (maybe it's the Conal reference you shared earlier, I just started processing it)
17:54:52	<EvanR>	there's a few shader DSLs on duckduckgo
17:57:09	<Guest6622>	I'm not much of a theoretician, so I was hoping someone already did the generalisations from these DSLs
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18:05:07	<yin>	Guest6622: have you looked into GADTs to see if that's what you're after?
18:08:11	<Guest6622>	yin: as I see it, GADTs are useful when you're creating those DSLs. What I'm looking for is more a framework, that covers this kind of "a system separate from this" case.
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18:09:32	<Guest6622>	not to say, that GADTs can't be useful for that as well, but they're lower level tool, than I was hoping already exists.
18:10:11	<EvanR>	the idea of "no entry or exit" seems kind of besides the point, since when you design a DSL part of the idea is you could have different interpretations for the DSL programs. Whether you could interact with something is part of the interpretation
18:15:53	<Guest6622>	mNo
18:16:25	<Guest6622>	it isn't besides the point to me :)
18:17:15	<EvanR>	if that is the only criteria... then it seems to me it leaves a lot of options open xD
18:17:41	<Guest6622>	what I'm trying to look at is what meaningful abstractions have already been built for these use cases
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18:19:44	<Guest6622>	yes, and I don't have the capacity to research those open options myself, so I was looking for the giants to hop their shoulders
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18:45:16	<yin>	is there any reason not to use {-# LANGUAGE Safe #-} ?
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18:45:54	<[exa]>	useful instances of unsafePerformIO in libs
18:46:11	<[exa]>	also, (slightly faster) unsafe ops for vectors
18:46:19	<geekosaur>	all your imports have to be FFI-free or guarantee that all their FFI uses are safe, iirc
18:47:10	<geekosaur>	but a loot of things are done via FFI; I think this for example precludes ByteString and Text?
18:47:29	<geekosaur>	s/loot/lot/
18:48:31	<yin>	doesnt Safe allow for Trustworthy imports?
18:48:53	<geekosaur>	that's what "guarantee all their FFI uses are safe" is
18:49:00	<yin>	right
18:49:10	<geekosaur>	the question becomes how well audited those libraries are
18:49:45	<yin>	so i should get into the habit of having it on by default
18:49:56	<geekosaur>	and whether their authors are willing to commit to their safety
18:50:12	<geekosaur>	which is more or less what they are doing if they declare themselves Trustworthy
18:50:16	<yin>	understood
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18:51:18	<yin>	is there an extension for guaranteeing that i don't import functions that are either incomplete or explicitly return bottom values?
18:53:43	<geekosaur>	no
18:54:33	<monochrom>	{-# LANGUAGE Agda #-} >:)
18:56:39	<EvanR>	that would be an interesting "guarantee"
18:56:55	<EvanR>	no obvious bottoms
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19:11:12	<yin>	well, i figure it wouldn't be that hard. just a check at the type level that all polimorphic functions eventually resolve to some "bottomless" type. i'm excluding non-termination, of course
19:11:55	<yin>	s/functions/values ? (i don't really know what i'm talking about)
19:12:13	<geekosaur>	pattern match checking has been shown to be anything but easy and still misses some cases, I think
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19:29:26	<yin>	shame shame
19:30:02	<geekosaur>	the more complete you try to be about such things, the closer you get to the halting problem
19:30:21	<geekosaur>	it's much harder than you think even if you try to scale the problem down to supposedly manageable subsets
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19:31:50	<geekosaur>	you end up doing what languages like agda do, restrict the scope of the language itself to prevent bottoms — but then you make the language much less usable
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19:33:54	<Franciman>	much less usable how? You mean you found yourself in a situation where you couldn't write a program to solve your problem?
19:34:30	<Franciman>	or that it's harder? You should also consider that you can tweak agda to get correct by construction software
19:34:43	<Franciman>	up to agda bugs :P
19:36:37	<geekosaur>	but agda won't let you write some things unless you also write a proof that it will terminate
19:36:54	<geekosaur>	or that it won't bottom out some other way
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19:42:11	<yin>	what's liquid haskell?
19:42:36	<yin>	what's -> how does it relate to this?
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19:42:54	<geekosaur>	it's a preprocessor (which I think is being rewritten to a set of ghc plugins?) that adds refinement types
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19:44:31	<geekosaur>	the problem with relating them to this discussion is that bottom is not a value, so cannot be captured or refuted by a refinement type
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19:58:28	<dolio>	Agda will let you write things that don't obviously terminate without a proof. It just won't let you give them a type that says they'll definitely terminate.
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20:00:15	<dolio>	It'll even let you just declare that something terminates, too, strictly speaking.
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20:03:36	<kuribas>	I found the concept of "fuel" in idris interesting. You can make a function that terminates given finite "fuel", and to make it run forever, you just give it infinite fuel.
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20:04:51	<kuribas>	On the other hand, "terminating" functions may not practically terminate.
20:05:03	<kuribas>	As in they terminate but not in any reasonable time.
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20:05:11	<dolio>	Well, that's always been true.
20:05:21	<hpc>	a better term for it might be "productivity"
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20:05:38	<dolio>	The Ackermann function is a terminating function, as far as type theory is concerned.
20:05:53	<kuribas>	So terminating functions are mostly useful for proofs?
20:05:54	<hpc>	you can define things that deal with infinite structures, but they have to always produce something at every step
20:06:13	<hpc>	filtering an infinite list needs to always have a next element, for instance
20:06:15	<kuribas>	streams are total in idris as well.
20:06:25	<kuribas>	As it knows you are not producing the whole list.
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20:06:56	<kuribas>	But that could rule out a function like "loeb".
20:07:00	<dolio>	Just because it doesn't solve all problems doesn't mean it's useless.
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20:26:51	<kuribas>	dolio: not useless, but heavy for what it gives.
20:27:18	<kuribas>	It may sometimes catch an accidental recursion, which is easy with lazyness.
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21:13:54	<[itchyjunk]>	Hi, slightly offtopic link https://www.cambridge.org/core/blog/2021/11/11/journal-of-functional-programming-moving-to-open-access/
21:14:16	<[itchyjunk]>	I don't have stomach for reading papers especially FP papers but there must be people who can digest it!
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21:24:18	<tomsmeding>	yay!
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21:32:04	<tomsmeding>	[exa]: I suddenly realise that your regex lib request was for adiff
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21:48:17	<[exa]>	tomsmeding: precisely
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21:48:26	<[exa]>	it's a bit on hold
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21:48:40	<[exa]>	:]
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22:19:21	<yin>	@type flip id
22:19:22	<lambdabot>	b -> (b -> c) -> c
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22:19:31	<energizer>	which other languages have `where`?
22:19:50	<yin>	^ can anybody quickly help me wrap my head around this?
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22:21:05	<[exa]>	yin: do you know how substitutions and unifications work?
22:21:22	<yin>	not formally but i got the intuition
22:21:23	<monochrom>	Specialize id to (b->c)->(b->c) = (b->c)->b->c, which is ($).
22:21:31	<[exa]>	yin: in short, you have: id :: x->x; flip :: (a -> (b -> c)) -> b -> (a -> c)
22:21:58	<[exa]>	then you need to make x -> x fit into the first parameter, so you got equation x->x == a->(b->c)
22:22:10	<[exa]>	in turn you'll get a == x == b->c
22:22:26	<yin>	(b -> c) -> b -> (x -> x) -> c
22:22:27	<yin>	?
22:22:47	<yin>	ah no
22:22:50	<yin>	ok i got it
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22:23:18	<[exa]>	first step you solve x->x == a->(b->c) because you need to smash the `id` into the first argument
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22:23:37	<[exa]>	solution of a symbolic equation is a substitution of variables that makes the sides equal
22:23:46	<yin>	yeah it clicked
22:23:50	<yin>	thanks
22:24:05	<yin>	i'm tired
22:24:08	<sshine>	x -> x = a -> b -> c, so that is when a = x, and (b -> c) = x.
22:24:10	<[exa]>	(you can wiki "robinson unification" btw, the process is surprisingly straightforward) :]
22:24:32	<[exa]>	anyway, just to finish that, you'll eventually get a fact that a==(b->c)
22:24:46	<EvanR>	energizer, SQL? xD
22:24:55	<energizer>	elixir, apparently
22:24:59	<[exa]>	which should lead to final flip id :: b -> ((b->c) -> c)
22:25:03	<geekosaur>	what variety of `where`?
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22:25:16	<[exa]>	EvanR: rofl
22:25:38	<geekosaur>	if you mean where blocks, they exist but are not especially common. I couldn't name any off the top of my head though
22:26:31	<energizer>	https://hexdocs.pm/elixir/guards.html#where-guards-can-be-used
22:27:15	<energizer>	what's the other kind of where in haskell?
22:27:20	<[exa]>	julia has a where keyword for type constraints
22:27:55	<[exa]>	and then there's the SPARQL where but let's not open that box
22:28:19	<geekosaur>	`where` has multiple meanings in haskell. consider `module Foo where`, `class Foo a where`, etc.
22:28:47	<geekosaur>	syntactically they all have the same form, but have varied meanings
22:28:47	<yin>	are we talking about a "where" keyword, or just syntactic sugar for closures in general?
22:29:17	<[exa]>	sugary still a keyword though
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23:52:42	<olibiera>	hello guys, is there any easy way to turn a string that is a math expression (ex: "4*3") in the result (12)
23:52:52	<olibiera>	?
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23:54:03	<dsal>	olibiera: you write a parser and evaluate the result.
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23:54:26	<dsal>	So, yeah, pretty easy, but you have to do some of the work.
23:55:06	<olibiera>	my english is not really good, can u explain what a parser is pls
23:55:41	<dibblego>	A parser for things is a function from strings to lists of pairs of things and strings.
23:56:13	<olibiera>	oh k ty :)
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All times are in UTC on 2021-11-14.