Logs on 2021-11-20 (liberachat/#haskell)

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01:18:02	<Guest\|35>	Can I install ghc on a macintosh with an m1 chip running monterey?
01:19:05	<geekosaur>	8.10.7 recommended and you'll need to point it at /opt/llvm
01:19:26	<geekosaur>	9.2.1 has a native codegen but some severe bugs were found post-release
01:20:02	<geekosaur>	ghcup should work fine to install either
01:20:10	<glguy>	Last time I tried I had some trouble where C libraries (openssl in my case) I wanted to use were using one architecture and GHC was compiling for the other
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01:21:41	<geekosaur>	I think most of that has been resolved, there were some aberrant uses of `arch` that inappropriately forced x86_64 builds
01:22:07	<geekosaur>	also I think you need to find a native stack binary if you use that, or stack will try to build everything x86_64
01:23:23	<glguy>	OK,I'll have to give it a shot
01:23:26	<glguy>	another*
01:23:49	<Guest\|35>	I don't mind whether it runs natively or not.. I have problems missing LLVM. I had further problems when i tried to install LLVM with home-brew.
01:23:53	<geekosaur>	possibly get stack from https://gitlab.haskell.org/maerwald/stack/-/jobs/849239/artifacts/browse/.local/bin/ ?
01:24:36	<geekosaur>	last I heard, a full working llvm is in /opt
01:24:50	<geekosaur>	you just have to convince ghc to look there
01:27:01	<glguy>	To get GHC to use my LLVM from homebrew I had to edit the lcc and opt keys in the ghc settings file
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01:29:13	<sm>	interesting
01:29:58	<dsal>	Guest\|35: I'm running it fine out of nix
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08:03:31	<jle`>	is there a ghc-pkg list that i can use within a cabal project?
08:04:36	<jle`>	ah i guess i can cabal freeze
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08:33:38	<Tisoxin>	Is there a project to implement anonymous sum types in Haskell (roc calls them „tags“: https://youtu.be/6qzWm_eoUXM?t=1008)?
08:34:23	<Tisoxin>	I have already found compound-types, but that's not quite what i want
08:35:56	<Tisoxin>	because I want to name constructors for better readibility
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08:51:43	<AndrejKarpathy>	Hi.
08:52:11	<jle`>	AndrejKarpathy: hi :)
08:52:48	<arahael>	I'm about to install haskell and cabal for a musl system (Alpine), any caveats I should be aware of? Shoudl I use the distro packages or ?
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08:53:21	<jle`>	AndrejKarpathy: your cars are very impressive, you must be very proud
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08:54:38	<Lycurgus>	arahael, this musl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musl ?
08:54:59	<arahael>	Lycurgus: Yes.
08:55:11	<Lycurgus>	in general using distro pkgs with hs is a bad idea
08:55:15	<AndrejKarpathy>	I had a question regarding the effects of Haskell code on the computational complexity of algorithms. Is there any significant change in it? I'm working on a small Haskell project that undertakes the handling of certain test cases on Codeforces. Thanks in advance.
08:55:22	<arahael>	Lycurgus: Which is why I'm asking here. :)
08:55:28	<Lycurgus>	probably manifestly so for alpine
08:55:34	<AndrejKarpathy>	@Jle Thank you. I like the civic too
08:55:34	<lambdabot>	Maybe you meant: pl let
08:55:58	<arahael>	Lycurgus: Yeah?
08:56:38	<Lycurgus>	yes by virtue of the principle of less use/exposure
08:56:55	<Lycurgus>	-/eyes
08:56:56	<jle`>	AndrejKarpathy: the "same" algorithms have the same complexities. but certain algorithsm can be easier or harder to write in haskell than in other languages, and superficial syntax similiaries can be misleading
08:57:38	<arahael>	Lycurgus: I'll try ghcup.
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08:58:34	<Lycurgus>	AndrejKarpathy, yeah at the source level easier but as far as the actual thing more work than with a simple algol like lang
08:59:08	<Lycurgus>	there are tools but with c you don't need em
08:59:21	<AndrejKarpathy>	Alright. Perfect answers, thank you jle`and Lycurgus
08:59:48	<arahael>	Lycurgus: Yeah, ghcup doesn't work.
09:00:16	<arahael>	Lycurgus: sh: /root/.ghcup/bin/ghcup: not found
09:00:29	<arahael>	Lycurgus: "_eghcup upgrade" failed!
09:01:50	<Lycurgus>	arahael, ack
09:01:51	<arahael>	Lycurgus: Looks like it's there but missing a whole bunch of libraries.
09:02:09	<arahael>	Eg, libtinfo.so.6 is missing.
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09:03:17	<AndrejKarpathy>	What is the Haskell community's collective outlook on Haskell being used as an official programming language in the competitive programming world? If possible, please mention the advantages and disadvantages of standardizing Haskell in accordance with competitive programming?
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09:04:27	arahael	hates competitive programming - it's basically ego-stroking.
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09:10:20	<arahael>	Though, I plan to do advent of code, I suppose that's competitive programming - but I tend to do that non-competitively.
09:14:17	<Hecate>	AndrejKarpathy: there is no collective outlook because there is no single Haskell community
09:14:41	<Hecate>	for example I'm certain the Russians will wholeheartedly agree that you should do Haskell for Competitive Programming
09:15:16	<arahael>	Haskell's popular in Russia?
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09:17:09	<AndrejKarpathy>	All right. :]
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09:19:20	<Hecate>	arahael: is Haskell even popular? ;)
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09:19:38	<Hecate>	but there is a Russian Haskellers community that exists and it's tightly-knit
09:19:46	<arahael>	Hecate: If that's a matter of opinion, then I'd say it is. ;)
09:20:33	<Hecate>	nah it's a matter of observing the real world
09:21:23	<arahael>	Hecate: God gives us but one Real World Token.
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10:15:45	<euouae->	Hello what are some good benchmarking packages for speed and memory?
10:16:25	<Hecate>	euouae-: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tasty-bench
10:16:27	<euouae->	I'm reading https://chrisdone.com/posts/fast-haskell-c-parsing-xml/ which mentions the 'weigh' package for memory tracking
10:17:32	<euouae->	Hecate, thank you
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10:20:51	<euouae->	Hecate, how can I use tasty-bench with stack instead of cabal?
10:21:44	<euouae->	Hecate nevermind me, I misread the instructions. It's like every other package.
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10:28:52	<euouae->	Actually, I don't understand how to write benchmarks with stack, `stack bench --help` doesn't have information on the package.yaml syntax and I can't find it in the docs either.
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10:30:49	<euouae->	I guess I'll look up a popular package and see how they do it
10:32:41	<Hecate>	euouae-: stack bench is just a shortcut to run the benchmarks stanza of your Cabal file, not write them
10:33:04	<euouae->	Hmmm so maybe I should `stack --help` and go from there
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10:34:46	<euouae->	for example `hspec` seems to use stack but it doesn't have any benchmarks
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10:35:02	<Hecate>	euouae-: `stack` is just a CLI tool to run builds, tests and benchmarks
10:35:21	<Hecate>	learn how to make benchmarks, `stack` is just how you call them, and is interchangeable with `cabal`
10:35:56	<euouae->	But stack is using the files `package.yaml` and `stack.yaml` which cabal doesn't know about, and package.yaml is where you specify the unit tests
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10:36:07	<Hecate>	no
10:36:11	<Hecate>	stack uses the cabal file
10:36:29	<Hecate>	package.yaml is turned into *.cabal through the use of a tool called hpack, which stack uses
10:36:33	<euouae->	It generates a cabal file
10:36:49	<Hecate>	stack.yaml is only here for dependency resolution, not calling tests and benchmarks
10:37:09	<Hecate>	you should maybe read the Stack manual if you want to use it
10:37:16	<euouae->	OK so if I learn about cabal and how hpack works, I'll figure it out
10:37:27	<euouae->	right
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10:51:56	<maerwald>	arahael: ghcup should work on alpine
10:52:27	<maerwald>	because ghcup binaries are built on alpine...
10:53:02	<arahael>	maerwald: Ah, good to know, that probably means there's just a dependency or two it's missed.
10:53:39	<maerwald>	well, I don't know the error
10:54:32	<arahael>	maerwald: It's a minimal system, ghcup is literally the first thing that's added.
10:54:49	<maerwald>	you need curl at least
10:56:12	<arahael>	Yeah, I tried, found curl wasn't installed, instaleld that, and then now stuck, but I ahven't been trying hard as I'm a bit lazy today.
10:56:18	<arahael>	It's missing the following libraries:
10:56:20	<maerwald>	works here https://imgur.com/He0FQpE.png
10:56:32	<arahael>	libtinfo.so.6, libnuma.so.1
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10:57:23	<arahael>	I'm on alpine 3.14, though actually I should update just in case.
10:57:36	<maerwald>	I still don't understand what exactly failed, you're only giving half the information
10:59:16	<arahael>	There's two libraries that are missing on my system that's required by ghcup, and a bunch of symbols which, I assume, are provided by those libraries.
10:59:31	<maerwald>	ghcup binary is static, it needs nothing
10:59:40	<arahael>	Uh? That's weird, then.
11:00:03	<arahael>	It's definintely dynamic here.
11:00:20	<maerwald>	/ # ldd ~/.ghcup/bin/ghcup
11:00:22	<maerwald>	/lib/ld-musl-i386.so.1: /root/.ghcup/bin/ghcup: Not a valid dynamic program
11:00:34	<arahael>	Yeah, that's what I'm running, and it's definitely dynamic.
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11:01:05	<maerwald>	what's the checksum of the binary
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11:01:29	<arahael>	The sha256sum is...
11:02:13	<arahael>	5a3075337...2974c4a2. First and last 8 characters or so of the hash.
11:02:27	<arahael>	More than that and the chance I make a typo becomes pretty high. :)
11:02:31	<maerwald>	what's the architecture?
11:02:36	<arahael>	aarm64
11:02:47	<arahael>	aarch64*. ARM 64, anyway.
11:02:48	<maerwald>	well, yeah... there are no static binaries for that arch
11:03:03	<arahael>	That explains the mystery!
11:03:19	<maerwald>	because there's no GHC aarch64 musl bindist
11:04:04	<maerwald>	and alpine repos don't have one either
11:04:10	<maerwald>	no one ever bootstrapped one
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11:04:38	<euouae->	Why is - -with-rtsopts="-A32m -T" giving me an error about -T" being an unknown option?
11:04:39	<arahael>	Hmm. And I'm guessing that means I can't build static haskell applicatiosn on this either (unless I were to bootstrap one, and that's probably a bit over my head at the moment)
11:05:03	<euouae->	in package.yaml
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11:06:37	<arahael>	Looks like this is https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/6715
11:06:55	<arahael>	(Closed, but only because they want it solved by #6616)
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11:07:57	<maerwald>	arahael: that's about normal linux arm
11:08:01	<maerwald>	and that's already solved
11:08:35	<arahael>	Ah, so it's the musl one that's peculiar, then.
11:08:44	<maerwald>	musl is always peculiar
11:09:10	<arahael>	Heh.
11:09:22	<arahael>	Well, it sounds like I can make do with a dynamically linked one, at least.
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11:09:32	<arahael>	Just gotta find these libs - which isn't going to be today. (It's getting late)
11:09:49	<arahael>	Would've been nice if it was static, but it's not a big deal.
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11:13:13	<arahael>	maerwald: I see your name pops up in a few of those tickets :) I'm happy to raise a bug report if you want, but not today - perhaps tomorrow? However, I'm really quite OK with finding these libs and bootstrapping it that way. I can probably just get all the required libs by installing the alpine ghc anyway.
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11:16:24	<maerwald>	there is no alpine ghc on aarch64
11:18:08	<arahael>	Ah, ha!
11:18:31	<arahael>	Looks like that might be a bit tricky, then! Well, will check it out tomorrow.
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11:18:36	<arahael>	G'night. :)
11:19:38	<arahael>	(And thanks)
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14:00:32	<euouae>	Hello how can I memoize the function (a -> a) -> a -> [a] given by [x, f x, f $ f x, f $ f $ f x, ...]
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14:01:38	<hololeap>	euouae: you could use the monad-memo package
14:02:07	<euouae>	hm, that looks nicer than the memoize package, which has very little docs
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14:02:29	<hololeap>	I've used it before. you can also roll your own pretty easily
14:04:00	<hololeap>	but you will necessarily end up with something that looks like: (a -> m a) -> a -> m [a]
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14:09:58	<euouae>	thanks
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14:12:51	<euouae>	If I have a vector of N elements and I'd like to iterate over all k-tuples with elements fron that vector, how can I do it without building a vector of N^k elements?
14:13:08	<euouae>	One way is by using indices, maybe that's it?
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14:14:51	<hpc>	you just make the list of tuples and loop over it
14:15:11	<euouae>	I'm assuming N,k large
14:15:14	<hpc>	the whole list won't be in memory at once unless you need all of it at the same time, or hold onto a reference to it
14:15:25	<hpc>	a list is just a loop waiting to happen :D
14:15:44	<euouae>	I don't understand, can it really be true?
14:15:59	<hpc>	> [1..] -- unless you think lambdabot has infinite memory, it must be true :D
14:16:01	<lambdabot>	[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,...
14:16:13	<hpc>	laziness in action
14:16:25	<euouae>	You're saying I can have e.g. let xs = map f [1..n], and then you can loop over k-tuples and what is the space/time analysis
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14:17:54	<euouae>	I'm not convinced :P
14:17:58	<hpc>	as long as you write it so there's no lingering references to parts of the list you have already looped over, it will be f*n
14:18:19	<euouae>	but the list is looped over k elements
14:18:35	<euouae>	e.g. [g a b c d ... z \| a <- xs, b <- xs, ... z <- xs]
14:19:03	<euouae>	so up until the very last few iterations, all elements are needed, right?
14:19:03	<hpc>	oh, i was misreading what xs was there
14:19:22	<hpc>	all elements of xs, sure
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14:19:42	<hpc>	but that fits in memory anyway, since that's a precondition to your question
14:20:16	<euouae>	right. oh yeah. but [ g ...] is an N^k list.
14:20:20	<hpc>	[g a b ...] will not all be in memory at once unless you hold onto a reference to it
14:20:31	<euouae>	Oh, I see!
14:20:48	<euouae>	Very nice, thanks
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14:22:40	<kuribas>	I wish more libraries would use abstractions such as monad, aplicative, (pro)functor, etc...
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14:23:42	<kuribas>	Looking at graphql libraries, the choice is either: a dynamically typed library following the javascript model, a fancy type level library (alla servant), and even more crazy, a library that uses your database schema as the API.
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14:24:38	<Lycurgus>	speaking of which, does impredication in 9 break much stuff or it can easily be turned off to be 8 like?
14:24:52	<geekosaur>	it defaults off
14:24:59	<Lycurgus>	ah
14:25:06	<kuribas>	What does impredication allow?
14:25:13	<geekosaur>	it's just a fixed ImpredicativeTypes, which was always a hack before that
14:26:04	<kuribas>	Does it mean you can return polymorphic functions from a function?
14:27:16	geekosaur	is actually not sure, this goes beyond his small understanding of type theory
14:27:40	<geekosaur>	I think it allows inference of forall-ed types
14:27:41	<Franciman>	kuribas: it allows
14:27:44	<Franciman>	\x. x x
14:27:46	<Franciman>	to be well typed
14:27:59	<Franciman>	but you can never use it :P except for applying it to id
14:28:25	<geekosaur>	to an extent at least, since ghc's type inference doesn't really support rank-2 polymorphism and rank >2 is undecidable
14:28:37	<Franciman>	yes you can return \forall x. x -> y
14:29:04	<kuribas>	I don't care about infering rank-2 or type extensions.
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14:35:39	<hololeap>	I care about your bear
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14:36:02	<kuribas>	hololeap: I don't have a bear...
14:36:05	<kuribas>	I have cat though
14:36:17	<hololeap>	close enough
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14:39:57	<euouae>	Suppose I want the functionality `lookup x xs` to be fast, as well as `add x xs` and `remove x xs`. What data structure should I be using? Hash table?
14:40:19	<euouae>	the adds won't be many, but there will be a lot of lookups
14:40:46	<euouae>	and there will be a lot of "modify" so to speak, I basically store (x,y) values where x is used for lookup and y is updated
14:41:46	<euouae>	IntMap would do, x is an int
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14:42:12	<geekosaur>	if x is an Int you probably want IntMap, yeh
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14:45:53	<hololeap>	vector might make sense too
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14:46:56	<euouae>	I'm going to write something cool and share soon
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14:54:10	<zincy>	Does anyone want to look over my code and help me connect two Mealy machines? https://gist.github.com/therewillbecode/22ad270985e3970f4d08444afdad704f
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15:05:47	<euouae>	Here it is, https://paste.tomsmeding.com/rQEcSSn0
15:07:02	<euouae>	maybe I should call it minimalRepresentatives
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15:19:09	<int-e>	> M.assocs . M.fromListWith min . map ((`mod` 2) &&& id) $ [100,200,301,401]
15:19:11	<lambdabot>	[(0,100),(1,301)]
15:20:48	<int-e>	euouae: `fromListWith` + `map` can express your `aux`
15:21:48	<euouae>	int-e nice! let me think about it
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15:26:34	<hololeap>	euouae: one simple change would be to replace your case block with: let y = f x in aux f xs $ IntMap.insertWith min y x m
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15:28:17	<serg>	Hi. I have data Expr a = ... I want a Show instance for a = Int. I write instance Show (Expr Int) where but I get a error: Int is not a type variable. True. Can I have a Show instance for Expr Int?
15:29:27	<hololeap>	serg: wouldn't you want Show a => Show (Expr a) ?
15:29:41	<hololeap>	why limit it to Int?
15:30:04	<janus>	% data Expr a
15:30:04	<yahb>	janus: type role Expr phantom; type Expr :: forall {k}. k -> *; data Expr a
15:30:20	<janus>	% :set -XFlexibleInstances
15:30:20	<yahb>	janus:
15:30:30	<euouae>	How can I refer to the constructor of some field in case of ambiguous name?
15:30:36	<janus>	% instance Show (Expr a) where
15:30:37	<yahb>	janus: ; <interactive>:61:10: warning: [-Wmissing-methods]; * No explicit implementation for; either `showsPrec' or `show'; * In the instance declaration for `Show (Expr a)'
15:30:41	<euouae>	e.g. I have both `area` as a constructor and as a function
15:31:00	<euouae>	ah -- nevermind me
15:31:03	<hololeap>	euouae: simply put, you can't
15:31:15	<serg>	This means I have to write show for every a not only Int?
15:31:25	<janus>	% instance Show (Expr Int) where
15:31:25	<yahb>	janus: ; <interactive>:62:10: error:; * Overlapping instances for Show (Expr Int) arising from a use of `GHC.Show.$dmshowsPrec'; Matching instances:; instance Show (Expr Int) -- Defined at <interactive>:62:10; instance [safe] forall k (a :: k). Show (Expr a) -- Defined at <interactive>:61:10; * In the expression: GHC.Show.$dmshowsPrec @(Expr Int); In an equation for `showsPre
15:31:26	<hololeap>	serg: no, just derive it
15:31:57	<hololeap>	data Expr a = ... deriving (Show, ...)
15:32:00	<int-e>	% :q
15:32:00	<yahb>	int-e:
15:32:36	<serg>	I know. I wanted to exercise. So meaning of Show a => is every a in Expr a has Show instance too?
15:32:49	<hololeap>	right
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15:33:08	<serg>	And FlexibleInstances of janus?
15:33:12	<geekosaur>	"if there is a Show instance for a, then the Show instance for (Expr a) is …"
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15:33:24	<int-e>	% data FooBar a = Foo a \| Bar
15:33:25	<yahb>	int-e:
15:34:50	<hololeap>	at some point when writing show or showsPrec for `Expr a`, you will inevitably be calling show or showsPrec for `a`
15:35:14	<int-e>	% instance Show a => Show (FooBar a) where show (Foo a) = "a Foo holding a " ++ show a; show Bar = "a Bar holding nothing"
15:35:14	<yahb>	int-e:
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15:35:18	<hololeap>	thus `a` needs to have a Show instance
15:35:21	<int-e>	% Foo Nothing
15:35:22	<yahb>	int-e: a Foo holding a Nothing
15:36:00	<int-e>	% Foo (Foo Bar)
15:36:00	<yahb>	int-e: a Foo holding a a Foo holding a a Bar holding nothing
15:36:15	<int-e>	Hah.
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15:36:35	<janus>	what is the motivation for having data constructors here?
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15:37:10	<int-e>	me? just having some fun
15:37:57	<janus>	right right, just wanted to make sure i wasn't missing anything. seemed to me like the question was not concerned with data
15:38:01	<serg>	I think I understand. show inside show for Expr is a different show.
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15:38:45	<serg>	but original solution works with flexibleinstances
15:39:24	<janus>	but i think the question is if that is really want you want. but since this is an exercise i guess the requirements cannot be pinned down
15:39:46	<serg>	is flexibleinstances bad?
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15:40:40	<geekosaur>	not in and of itself. but using it for this is something of a smell
15:40:44	<int-e>	Nah, FlexibleInstances is benign. UndecidableInstances is benign if your code compiles. Anything overlapping is a road to hell, where incoherent instances live.
15:41:25	<janus>	benign also according to diehl http://dev.stephendiehl.com/hask/#classes
15:41:39	<int-e>	Yeah I wonder why FlexibleInstances would be required for something simple like this.
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15:41:54	<geekosaur>	just because haskell98/2010 doesn't spec it
15:42:14	<serg>	Is meaning of flexibleinstances only Show instance for Expr a for some a?
15:42:21	<geekosaur>	"must be of the form T a b c where a, b, c are type variables"
15:43:01	<int-e>	if you have instance (Show a) => Show (Expr a) where ... then that doesn't require FlexibleInstances
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15:43:12	<int-e>	though enabling FlexibleInstances won't hurt of course
15:43:38	<serg>	this works: instance Show a => Show (Expr a) where show (Lit a) = show a ...
15:44:12	<serg>	I think I understand. Thank you.
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15:48:01	<janus>	where can a read more about how templateHaskell causes more module invalidation than w/o TH?
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15:52:50	<euouae>	A file contains this data, "Just [(0,Triangle {a = Point {x = 0, y = 0}, b = Point {x = 0, y = 0}, c = Point {x = 0, y = 0}})]\n" how can I read it back into a variable?
15:53:06	<euouae>	I've tried `read <$> f :: IO (Maybe (Int, [Triangle]))` but it's not working out
15:53:17	<euouae>	Also tried with `return`, but that didn't work out either
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15:56:16	<janus>	% newtype A = A Int deriving (Show, Read)
15:56:16	<yahb>	janus:
15:56:19	<janus>	% read (show (A 1))
15:56:19	<yahb>	janus: *** Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
15:57:41	<int-e>	% read (show (A 1)) :: A
15:57:41	<yahb>	int-e: A 1
15:58:07	<janus>	ooh it is type defaulting :O omg
15:58:10	<int-e>	(it's ghci with extended defaulting rules... defaults to ())
15:58:34	<int-e>	% read "A 1" :: ()
15:58:34	<yahb>	int-e: *** Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
15:58:35	<euouae>	I recall doing something like `((,) <*> f <$> g) x y` to get (f x, g y)...
15:58:39	<euouae>	But I can't get it to work, is that wrong?
15:59:10	<int-e>	((,) <*> f <$> g) x is (f x, g x)
15:59:18	<janus>	euouae: are you using the same deriving strategy for Read and Show?
15:59:24	<euouae>	janus yeah
15:59:28	<zincy>	With the Machines library how do you express a bidirectional relationship between machines. For example machine A writes output which updates machine B but depending on the state of machine B, machine A might need to be updated.
15:59:40	<int-e>	:t curry (?f *** ?g)
15:59:41	<lambdabot>	(?f::a -> c, ?g::b -> c') => a -> b -> (c, c')
15:59:42	<euouae>	int-e oh nice
16:00:05	<euouae>	That's /actually/ what I need
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16:00:26	<int-e>	:t f &&& g
16:00:27	<lambdabot>	(Arrow a, FromExpr (a b c), FromExpr (a b c')) => a b (c, c')
16:00:39	<int-e>	:t id . (f &&& g)
16:00:40	<lambdabot>	(Show a, FromExpr c, FromExpr c') => a -> (c, c')
16:00:56	<int-e>	oh, duh
16:01:00	<int-e>	:t id . (?f &&& ?g)
16:01:01	<lambdabot>	(?f::a -> c, ?g::a -> c') => a -> (c, c')
16:02:15	<euouae>	`fromListwith min $ map ((,) <*> f <$> id) xs` is what you propose int-e I believe
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16:02:40	<int-e>	euouae: yeah I used &&& earlier
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16:08:02	<euouae>	I'm getting it wrong because things like `((,) <*> (1+) <$> Just) 1` fail
16:08:07	<euouae>	I'm not sure why, ugh :D
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16:08:47	<int-e>	euouae: oh you've mixed up <$> and <*>
16:09:06	<euouae>	I'm going with &&&, seems nice
16:09:06	<int-e>	(and I copied it without noticing)
16:09:47	<int-e>	> ((,) <$> (1+) <*> Just) 1
16:09:49	<lambdabot>	(2,Just 1)
16:10:03	<int-e>	> ((1+) &&& Just) 1
16:10:05	<lambdabot>	(2,Just 1)
16:10:35	<int-e>	and before you ask, &&& comes from Control.Arrow
16:10:45	<euouae>	Indeed -- no worries, I hoogled that
16:11:01	<janus>	applicative style is better just because it avoids control.arrow ;)
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16:11:46	<janus>	and you have less churn when you need a third member.
16:12:33	<janus>	even less churn if you decide to have a dedicated data type instead of tuples
16:12:38	<int-e>	in that spirit you should minimize dependencies and write a lambda \x -> (f x, x)
16:12:49	<Rembane_>	Applicative style isn't as cool though :D
16:13:35	<janus>	int-e: unavoidable dependencies don't need to be avoided ;)
16:13:54	<janus>	applicative is in prelude, no?
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16:17:51	<int-e>	Not in Haskell2010 :P
16:18:01	<euouae>	I think that might be a good idea too, to write it that way
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16:19:24	<janus>	Rembane_: here's a cool applicative pattern in purescript: instance DecodeJson Person where decodeJson json = o <- decodeJson; Person <$> { name: _, age: _ } <$> (o .: "name") <*> (o .: "age")
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16:20:30	<janus>	(advantage is multiple errors if an element has a problem) (possible because the _ are arguments to an implicit anonymous function)
16:21:14	<Rembane_>	janus: That's pretty. Should there be two <$> in that line?
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16:22:47	<janus>	Rembane_: yeah, depends whether you want to wrap your records with a newtype constructor or not. we do that here. but if you don't , just remove "Person <$>". purescript's records are not necessarily wrapped in a data constructor with a similar name to the type, as is common in haskell
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16:23:26	<Rembane_>	janus: Got it. Cool!
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16:25:49	<hololeap>	zincy: those mealy machines seem confusing
16:25:59	<zincy>	hololeap: How come?
16:26:23	<hololeap>	I guess I just don't have an intuition for them
16:27:35	<zincy>	Its just a turn based game that has a mealy for whether each player has acted and a mealy for game stages
16:28:01	<zincy>	Players cannot act if they are in an inactive state etc ...
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16:29:37	<hololeap>	unfoldMealy :: (s -> a -> (b, s)) -> s -> Mealy a b
16:30:10	<hololeap>	this is a much more understandable representation to me, which makes me wonder if the whole Mealy abstraction is worth it or if it's just extra mental overhead
16:30:57	<hololeap>	but I guess that could be said about any abstraction I don't have an intuition for :p
16:31:09	<hololeap>	then again, you seem to be having problems with it as well, zincy
16:31:49	<zincy>	yes I am hehe
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16:40:22	<hololeap>	A Profunctor p is a Cosieve on f if it is a subprofunctor of Costar f.
16:40:49	<hololeap>	where does ekmett get these terms from?
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16:43:04	<hololeap>	Sketches of an Elephant – A Topos Theory Compendium
16:43:09	<hololeap>	is that the original source?
16:45:10	<hololeap>	I'm tired of going into a drooling stupor when I read the docs for profunctors
16:48:59	<zincy>	I am finding this library quite tricky to understand
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17:11:56	<ProfSimm>	I have something odd to ask, but I wanna her your opinion. In Haskell, two identical types by different names are different, right. Nominal
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17:18:26	<timCF_>	Hello! Let's say I do have a `newtype PosRat = PosRat (Ratio Natural)` with smart constructors and stuff to create new values of this type with potential failure for example in case where value is == 0. Is there the way to have literals of my new type which I can write in a code just as values (without applying smart constructors)? Basically I want to apply smart constructor in compile-time. But without
17:18:32	<timCF_>	TH. Just similar the way Natural type literals are handled.
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17:19:15	<ProfSimm>	Haskell is nominal, right. Two identical types with different name would be different types
17:19:54	<monochrom>	Yes.
17:21:39	<ProfSimm>	Let's imagine a system where two differently named types are compared structurally, at depth, and Haskell speculatively branches by executing the code twice by substituting one of the other. And at some threshold, if they cause the same outcomes, they become one type.
17:22:09	<ProfSimm>	Is there a name for this idea
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17:24:50	<geekosaur>	timCF_, not without patching the compiler to recognize the new literals
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17:25:16	<timCF_>	geekosaur: so TH is the simplest way to go I guess?
17:25:17	<geekosaur>	heck, it doesn't even recognize Ratio Integer literals, % is a smart constructor
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17:25:44	<geekosaur>	or quasiquoters, which amount to the same thing
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17:26:03	<timCF_>	geekosaur: but it does recognize Natural, and will not compile negative literals
17:26:15	<geekosaur>	right
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17:29:20	<dsal>	ProfSimm: We do have a concept of a type role which allows us to treat (or prevents us from treating) a structure of one type as a structure of another type with the same representation, but the deep comparison thing is orthogonal, I think.
17:29:33	<dsal>	(super likely I don't understand what you're getting at, but this at least sounds similar)
17:30:14	<ProfSimm>	dsal, the structural comparison would be some initial sanity check. But I think two types stand the test of being compatible if they actually produce the same outcomes
17:30:53	<zero>	if we can have a total linear function that only uses total linear functionss, we could pattern match against them, couldn't we?
17:30:54	<ProfSimm>	dsal well I'm using a type a bit differently here. Not as in "same contract, different result, different implementation"
17:31:08	<ProfSimm>	But as in "same contract and result, different implementation"
17:31:32	<ProfSimm>	zero, do you know how epicycles work (related concept fourier transform)
17:31:49	<zero>	ProfSimm: i know nothing about it
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17:32:09	<zero>	not by name at least
17:32:22	<ProfSimm>	zero, basically you can take a signal and decompose it to frequencies, each a sine wave with different amplitude
17:32:31	<zero>	ah yes
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17:32:46	<dsal>	ProfSimm: Yeah, I don't think that concept exists directly. I'm thinking about coerce, which looks like this: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.0.0/docs/Data-Coerce.html -- type role allows us to say that given a `Map k v` the `v` can be coerced without changing meaning, but the `k` cannot.
17:32:52	<ProfSimm>	zero, do the same in 2D you get circles. You can use this analysis to draw homer simply by connecting rotating circle of various size and speed
17:33:17	<shapr>	o hi ProfSimm, how's code?
17:33:20	<ProfSimm>	zero: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVuU2YCwHjw
17:33:34	<zero>	ProfSimm: yes, i get that. how does it relate to my questin?
17:33:41	<ProfSimm>	shapr, I'm in a very odd place dude. I'm gonna need a quantum computer to implement some features :-)
17:34:10	<ProfSimm>	zero, well the thing I wanna achieve is not match linear functions, but match result
17:34:32	<ProfSimm>	And actually "close enough" is an allowance, for some specific amount of close enough
17:35:10	<ProfSimm>	Wait, let me redefine this
17:35:35	<ProfSimm>	Imagine if Haskell trained a neural network on a type, and when they get close enough, it replaces the type with the neural network
17:36:02	<zero>	ProfSimm: ah, i was confused. i entered the channel just now to ask my question, have no idea of what you were talking about ;)
17:37:39	<ProfSimm>	Oh OK
17:38:58	<dsal>	ProfSimm: It's not clear to me what it means to change a type along the way. It sounds like you're describing a sum type at some point with some kind of ability to coerce that I don't think you're going to get for free.
17:40:25	<geekosaur>	zero, I think you would need more than linearity to pattern match a function
17:41:03	<geekosaur>	try figuring out what this would look like
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17:54:11	<hololeap>	@hackage validated-literals -- timCF_
17:54:11	<lambdabot>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/validated-literals -- timCF_
17:54:22	<hololeap>	this uses TH, but it might be useful for you
17:57:19	<awpr>	oh I missed that question -- check out https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dependent-literals-plugin
17:59:26	<awpr>	it's a bit heavyweight just to rule out zero without calling a smart constructor, but I guess it could be worth it if you have code with tons of PosRat literals that would be overwhelmed with noise otherwise
18:00:01	<timCF_>	thanks!
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19:23:03	<sm>	g'day all
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19:24:18	<sm>	so.. for haskell code, 2-space indent, or 4 ?
19:24:58	<geekosaur>	I use 2 fwiw
19:25:06	<sm>	I use 2, but I'm getting the feeling 4 might be smoother with haskell syntax
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19:25:47	<sm>	let a=1
19:25:48	<sm>	b=2
19:25:48	<sm>	... eg
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19:26:07	<EvanR>	hah
19:26:48	<awpr>	I've seen some people just put the first let-binding on a new line. but I tend to just make an exception and align let-bindings at 4 spaces, and use 2 for normal indentation
19:26:53	<geekosaur>	I wouldn't use 2 there but that's because of block indentation; I'd use 2 if I hit enter after the let
19:28:27	<EvanR>	if I need recursive definitions I try hard to use where not let
19:29:10	<EvanR>	if I need a sequence of lets I do https://paste.tomsmeding.com/xHhQbPoZ
19:29:14	<EvanR>	which is rare
19:30:17	<EvanR>	basically, over 1 level of indentation and I feel like I did something wrong
19:30:37	<EvanR>	(which sm's let has)
19:32:05	sm	was trying out floskell, which uses 4 by default
19:32:41	<monochrom>	I use a 2-4 combo. "f x = y" "<2 spaces>where" "<4 spaces>y = x+x"
19:33:21	<Hecate>	hohai
19:33:27	<Hecate>	I've done a thing: https://twitter.com/TechnoEmpress/status/1462135732680769539
19:33:27	<maerwald>	I use whatever I feel like at the moment
19:33:36	<monochrom>	I learned it from tibbe's style guide. I think it's an ingenious design accomodating "where" which you don't find in other languages.
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19:34:12	<monochrom>	https://github.com/tibbe/haskell-style-guide/blob/master/haskell-style.md
19:34:21	<sm>	thanks
19:34:30	<maerwald>	burn all style guides
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19:34:48	<sm>	ah yes, half-indent for `where`
19:35:07	<monochrom>	In other languages (e.g., C, shell script), I use 2 spaces.
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19:35:18	<sm>	that's another reason I think 4 might be smoother. Half of a 2-indent is not much
19:35:39	<maerwald>	I've worked on a 4spaces indent codebase, I remember some corner cases there too
19:35:53	<sm>	though, I tend to give `where` a full indent, and just indent the definitions more
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19:36:11	<maerwald>	ah yeah... there's a corner case with `do` and indenting
19:36:33	<geekosaur>	yeh, my usual style means it's indented by 3 because of block indenting
19:36:43	<geekosaur>	unless I start it with a newline, then it's 2
19:36:47	<sm>	(why should where bindings be indented less than let bindings, after all)
19:37:35	<monochrom>	I'm very happy that in "let x=1", the "let " length is 4, so when on the next line I have "<4 spaces>y=2" it lines up.
19:38:30	<maerwald>	here strict 4 indenting makes compilation fail: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/rLQWB31q
19:38:49	<sm>	I guess I'll start by just adopting the 4-space indent for let.. that's pretty low impact
19:39:14	<sm>	low benefit too I guess, code formatters will be confused
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19:40:15	<EvanR>	I put the main where at the end of the line before the indented chunk, and people seem to hate it
19:40:23	<EvanR>	dunno why
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19:41:23	<maerwald>	in all the time I had to engage in styling discussions in industry... I could have written a Haskell compiler
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19:42:57	<monochrom>	I don't hate it, but I don't do it because " where" is like 9% of your "70-column line" quota.
19:43:36	<monochrom>	Although, I have long relaxed to 80 columns.
19:44:15	<geekosaur>	I'm up to 96
19:44:26	<monochrom>	It's the 21st century. We use 16:9 screens, not 9:16 screens. Even 100 columns is reasonable.
19:44:38	<maerwald>	savage... what if someone reads your code on a small ssh terminal in a bunker after doomsday?
19:44:41	<geekosaur>	70/72 died with card readers, 80 died with physical terminals :)
19:45:04	<monochrom>	dragging column limits screaming kicking into the century of the 16:9 screen.
19:45:06	<Rembane_>	OTOH, human eyes seem to have a max width that's reasonable to read
19:45:45	<maerwald>	Rembane_: there's neuroscience research that moving your eyes laterally increases happiness (I'm not kidding) :p
19:45:58	<sm>	for code, I think logical grouping by line is more important than line width
19:46:13	<sm>	we are usually skimming code, not reading every word
19:46:36	<sm>	it's fine if the last bit is cut off at times
19:46:51	<Rembane_>	maerwald: Nice! Now we need some creative surgery so we can rotate the eyes inside the skull :D
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19:46:59	<Rembane_>	maerwald: Eyes go: "WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!"
19:47:11	<monochrom>	Oh well, I guess 30 years later people read code on TikTok, they will be back at 40 columns again (remember those? >:) )
19:47:22	<EvanR>	if you aren't coding in style, what's the point
19:47:28	<EvanR>	:sunglasses:
19:47:29	<maerwald>	https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6596227/
19:47:51	<sm>	but for text, speaking of short lines readability.. I really like the newspaper-style layout of https://scroll.pub
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19:48:02	<geekosaur>	after the great emp pulse we won't be reading code at all :þ
19:48:25	<sm>	geekosaur: :-/
19:48:28	<monochrom>	Actually I hate those double-column layouts.
19:48:56	<monochrom>	Well OK, I'm fine with in on physical paper. But on a 16:9 screen?!
19:49:42	<geekosaur>	I use a 2-column layout. two separate editor windows, usually on different files
19:49:43	<maerwald>	Rembane_: people usually get really confused if you bring scientific research into the style discussion... I mean if you're nitpicking on irrelevant stuff, do it all the way!
19:50:12	<Rembane_>	maerwald: Sure thing! Eventually we need to go to the sources.
19:50:27	<monochrom>	OK, I'm fine with it on a 16:9 screen if each column fits within the verticle screen length.
19:50:36	<monochrom>	Clearly, academic paper
19:51:00	<monochrom>	Clearly, neither academic paper PDFs nor scroll.pub satisfies that.
19:51:29	<sm>	monochrom: scroll.pub doesn't do that (it fits the width, and extends downward). But that (fitting the height, and extending sideways) would also be nice to try.
19:52:05	<maerwald>	Rembane_: also, really good argument for spaces: https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/06/15/developers-use-spaces-make-money-use-tabs/
19:52:06	<sm>	even as it is now, I found it pretty refreshing and efficient for reading a faq
19:52:20	<Rembane_>	maerwald: I dig that!
19:52:51	<maerwald>	and apparently, haskell is wrong with using camelCase: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5521745
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19:53:18	<monochrom>	Therefore, when a sentence is split between 2 columns, it is also separated by like a metre.
19:53:39	<monochrom>	a metre of scrolling
19:53:51	<sm>	it gets worse the more content you put on one page, yes
19:53:53	<monochrom>	How would any human consider it ergonomic, I don't know.
19:54:30	<sm>	but newspapers work like that too, and we manage
19:54:58	<monochrom>	scroll.pub itself shows an ample example of doing it wrong.
19:55:14	<monochrom>	newspapers are on physical paper, as said. you just fly your eyes.
19:55:45	<geekosaur>	newspapers also have "above/below the fold"
19:55:53	<monochrom>	Where as on scroll.pub, consider the section "How do I check browser performance?"
19:56:05	<monochrom>	You have an opening sentence.
19:56:21	<monochrom>	And then, what, the sample code requires scrolling all the way back to the top.
19:56:36	<monochrom>	Remember cathoy ray tubes?
19:57:14	<monochrom>	Remember its electron beam goes horizontally normally, but it has to quickly fly back to the left for the next line.
19:57:34	<monochrom>	I feel like 2-column layout fanatics want me to do the same manually vertically.
19:57:52	<monochrom>	I feel like they are maschosists.
19:58:03	<monochrom>	"Hahaha let's torture the readers thus!"
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19:58:36	<hololeap>	I indent using random fibonacci numbers
19:58:38	<monochrom>	If you have 5 lines of code to post.
19:58:46	<awpr>	once per page, though. if I see lines the full width of my monitor, I have no chance of moving my eyes correctly back to the start of the next line
19:59:03	<awpr>	with a newspaper column width line, it's almost 100% reliably accurate
19:59:20	<monochrom>	They're like "let's put 3 of those lines at the far bottom, let's put the other 2 lines at the far top, so that people cannot use copy-paste".
19:59:25	<hololeap>	just for that e e cummings vibe
19:59:59	<maerwald>	but the realy question is: do you align vertically?!
20:01:55	<monochrom>	It breaks all kinds of proximity, locality principles.
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20:02:24	<EvanR>	quantum style
20:02:50	<EvanR>	my C code is entangled
20:03:14	<maerwald>	I have seen suggestions like this: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/TV7JCPRb
20:03:30	<maerwald>	so you can see relations of identifiers
20:03:33	<EvanR>	:horror:
20:04:20	<maerwald>	I mean... in maths you sometimes do that
20:06:03	<monochrom>	You know, it works when your function can be linearly typed. Clearly, in retrospect.
20:06:32	<monochrom>	If your x needs to be mentioned at 100 places, good luck with that.
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23:40:00	<timCF_>	Is there the way to unlift somehow name of the type (just normal kind *) from type level (in case of usage from generic function) to value level (for example a String)?
23:41:01	<geekosaur>	not entirely sure what you're talking about
23:41:14	<geekosaur>	types don't exist at runtime so their names normally aren't known
23:42:07	<geekosaur>	there is Data.Typeable which carries type information in a dictionary at runtime, but (a) it won't work for polymorphic types (b) you need to carry it around in your types
23:42:07	<timCF_>	Something like `showType :: forall a. a -> String`
23:42:34	<EvanR>	that type doesn't have enough information to work
23:42:36	<geekosaur>	:t typeOf
23:42:38	<lambdabot>	Typeable a => a -> TypeRep
23:42:42	<awpr>	> show (typeRep (Proxy @Int))
23:42:43	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:22: error: parse error on input ‘@’
23:42:46	<EvanR>	:t show . typeOf
23:42:47	<lambdabot>	Typeable a => a -> String
23:43:06	<timCF_>	Exactly what I wanted
23:43:11	<timCF_>	Thanks!
23:43:44	<EvanR>	interested to see how you end up with an unknown type at runtime xD
23:44:35	<timCF_>	hmmm
23:44:50	<geekosaur>	betting it's polymorphic, in which case as I said this won't work
23:45:02	<timCF_>	actually why I do even need a value of "a"?
23:45:06	<geekosaur>	you can't find out the actual type it was called at
23:45:33	<timCF_>	why just not `showType :: forall a. String`
23:45:35	<awpr>	you don't need a value; there's a Proxy version, or `undefined` will work
23:45:59	<awpr>	`base` tends to avoid using ambiguous types that need TypeApplications to work
23:46:03	<timCF_>	and then `showType @a` from some generic function
23:46:11	<timCF_>	aa
23:46:14	<geekosaur>	also Typeable predates Proxy and TypeApplications
23:46:24	<EvanR>	forall a . String is a constant
23:46:41	<timCF_>	it's kinda a function on types
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23:46:50	<awpr>	you can write that API, though: `showType :: forall a. Typeable a => String` `showType = show (typeRep @a Proxy)`
23:46:52	<timCF_>	but on value level it's a constant
23:46:54	<EvanR>	your're mixing levels now
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23:47:56	<awpr>	type parameters don't exist at runtime (at least until `foreach` from distant-future dependent haskell becomes a thing), so there needs to be something passed in to identify the type at runtime if it's going to be something other than a constant (in this case, a `Typeable` instance)
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23:56:13	<timCF_>	Yeah, typeRep works perfectly with Proxy type. Cool stuff!

All times are in UTC on 2021-11-20.