Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2021-11-21 (liberachat/#haskell)

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01:06:12 <arahael> maerwald: just had a look for the missing libraries... libtinfo.so.6 does not exist in alpine. it's a transitional package, too.
01:06:40 <arahael> maerwald: so it's looking very unlikely that there is an easy way for me to get haskell going in this environmenr.
01:07:01 <geekosaur> symlink to libncurses.so.6
01:08:06 <geekosaur> ideally configure would detect lack of libtinfo and use libncurses instead
01:09:43 <arahael> hmm. what about libnuma?
01:09:54 <geekosaur> that one I don't know
01:11:13 <geekosaur> on my ubuntu it's from libnuma1, but that probably doesn't help
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01:14:11 <arahael> i think i have it in the numacl package so lets try that...
01:14:13 <geekosaur> https://pkgs.alpinelinux.org/contents?branch=edge&name=numactl-dev&arch=x86&repo=main
01:14:19 <arahael> that! :)
01:14:51 <geekosaur> lso I just noticed you pointed to a .so but you won't find those on alpine iirc, it's all static
01:15:00 <geekosaur> so you still have a problem
01:15:52 <geekosaur> I thought we had a static/alpine build of ghc somewhere though
01:15:59 geekosaur digs
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01:17:11 <arahael> No, there's .so files too.
01:17:18 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/8.10.7/ghc-8.10.7-x86_64-alpine3.10-linux-integer-simple.tar.xz ?
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01:17:30 <arahael> Yeah, but I'm on aarch64
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01:17:34 <geekosaur> oh
01:17:43 <geekosaur> dunno about that one
01:18:00 <arahael> It's been confirmed you guys don't have it.
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01:18:40 <geekosaur> and if you need a libnuma.so then numactl won't have iot, it's only got a static library
01:18:53 <arahael> No, I've got it now, had to install that.
01:19:27 <arahael> Hmm... What's teh difference between libncursesw and libncurses, I have the former...
01:19:58 <geekosaur> there isn't one in api level 6
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01:20:13 <geekosaur> used to be that ncursesw was wide character (unicode) support
01:20:16 <arahael> Ah.
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01:20:44 <arahael> Hmm, ok, so I think it just don't work - I have now satisfied all libraries but still three missing symbols.
01:21:00 <arahael> Missing symbols: gnu_dev_makedev, gnu_dev_major, gnu_dev_minor
01:21:20 <geekosaur> uh. that's a libc issue
01:21:44 <arahael> Seems like ghcup's binary isn't compiled for my system at all then.
01:22:05 <geekosaur> sounds like somehow they got a few glibc headers mixed in with musl?
01:22:22 <geekosaur> because I'd expect those to be macros
01:23:05 <arahael> maerwald: Has pointed out there's no bindist for this system, though I assumed he was referring to the static bindists.
01:23:13 <arahael> But I guess there isn't one at all.
01:23:38 <arahael> s/:/, :)
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01:24:22 <arahael> I think I may be best investigating rust instead if I want to support this system.
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01:27:10 <arahael> (Especially since I haven't actually written this yet, though, I do really like the idea of using haskell's network-simple-tls.)
01:33:35 <arahael> I could consider compiling haskell, but I've no other compiler to bootstrap it, so it's still back to cross compiling, and I'm not really keen to get into that with haskell.
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02:15:43 <danso> is (->) mathematically a bifunctor, but isn't in haskell for practical computery reasons?
02:18:03 <awpr> the Bifunctor class is a very specific form of bifunctor that (->) isn't
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02:18:53 <awpr> Bifunctor is Hask x Hask -> Hask bifunctors, but (->) is Hask_op x Hask -> Hask. for that, there's Profunctor
02:20:57 <danso> hm ok thanks
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04:03:53 <dsamperi> Have recent revisions of GHC provided a work-around for the fact that field names have file/module scope? SPJ says something about this in his lecture on Lenses.
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04:08:31 <dsal> There's nothing special about field names in that regard. You can choose to or choose not to export those symbols.
04:08:45 <dsal> There are new features that allow you to have records without generating the accessor functions.
04:08:52 <dsal> And a few other weird record hacks.
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04:11:41 <sm> a growing number of weird record hacks
04:14:57 <dsamperi> Simon suggested a future release might include a work-around for field name conflicts in the same module using Lens library.
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04:22:42 <helby> Hey, I am not familiar with cabal/ghc, trying to build HsOpenSSL on OpenBSD and had some errors ;/ https://envs.sh/E2h.log
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04:29:51 <dsal> dsamperi: It's unclear what you mean. lens can do this with "classy" lenses, but you can't just make a function mean different things.
04:30:50 <dsal> You can always qualify symbols to the module that's exporting them.
04:31:47 <helby> it would help if at least I know what these errors means ;/
04:32:52 <awpr> this kinda looks like an incompatibility between some low-level Haskell/C interface code and the C headers your system provides
04:33:24 <awpr> the error is coming from C land, where something is trying to find the offset of a struct field, in a type that's not been defined yet, only forward-declared
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04:34:56 <helby> well openbsd uses libressl, not openssl, don't know if it can be related, but I assume
04:35:14 <awpr> that sounds like it's probably the issue
04:38:15 <awpr> from skimming the issue tracker, it looks like it intends to support libressl, maybe on a best-effort basis. it might be worth filing a bug report https://github.com/vshabanov/HsOpenSSL/issues
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08:54:12 <albet70> what's the relationship between json and yaml?
08:58:09 <sm> four letter names, plain text, popular, overused, hard to displace
08:58:19 <pavonia> JSON is a subset of YAML
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09:01:27 <[exa]> also, parsing json is afaik decidable
09:01:37 <[exa]> albet70: you meant the packages right? :D
09:02:16 <albet70> "🟢 [exa] :albet70: you meant the packages right? :D", just the name
09:03:02 <albet70> "pavonia :JSON is a subset of YAML", aha
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09:07:21 <albet70> is that simple to use parsec to parse yaml? I tried json at once
09:07:56 <albet70> or megaparsec?
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09:21:48 <[exa]> albet70: there's the specialized parser in `yaml` package that can be recommended, but if you are okay with parsing a decent safe subset of yaml, megaparsec should just work
09:22:37 <[exa]> there's even some support for autoparsing the indentation blocks, which well, you know, helps a lot.
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10:48:12 <smunix> modified
10:48:38 [exa] welcomes the change
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10:49:37 <linkedlistist> Hey, folks, does anyone have any experience of calling Haskell from Rust?
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11:13:28 <[exa]> linkedlistist: it should be possible using the "reverse FFI" as from C, given Rust can call C symbols with ccall.
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11:15:06 <[exa]> i.e., just simulate what's happening in here https://wiki.haskell.org/Calling_Haskell_from_C
11:15:29 <[exa]> you'll just need to take the `test.rs` and compile it yourself to `.o`
11:15:52 <albet70> haha, calling haskell from rust
11:16:18 <[exa]> like, honestly I'd expect the other way around.
11:16:19 <[exa]> :D
11:16:27 <albet70> nowadays, people always compare those two
11:16:46 <albet70> which one is better or harder to learn
11:17:40 <[exa]> yeah comparing the incomparable is a popular fun. :D
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11:18:33 <[exa]> nyway rust is pretty good, at least for beginners who require the tooling, esp. compared to the other languages in that niche
11:18:39 <[exa]> seriously looking forward to how that develops
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11:19:01 <albet70> I saw there was a rust book in the library, and it's so big I mean there're too many pages, so I didn't learn rust from there
11:20:27 <albet70> and then I saw learn yourself a haskell for good, it doesn't have so many pages, so I buy it and learn haskell
11:21:31 <sshine> albet70, I started solving the Rustlings tutorial. it's a nice alternative to reading a book.
11:21:33 <albet70> it's a good book for beginners, but it lacks lots of concepts
11:21:55 <albet70> sshine, does it have so many pages?
11:22:04 <sshine> it's not a book.
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11:23:07 <sshine> it's a git repository. you download it, set up a development environment, enable "file watch" (turn the compiler to recompile the tutorial project every time a file is changed), and start fixing intentional bugs left in each tutorial file. when you're done with one file, the next file complains.
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11:23:25 <albet70> also there's another language that comes to compare with haskell, scala
11:23:31 <sshine> eventually, when you get to the stuff about borrowed pointers, I do feel the need to read up. but I can still use just online resources.
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11:24:25 <albet70> haskell, rust, scala those three are very argued
11:24:59 <sshine> they're argued?
11:25:03 <albet70> the pointers, is like C or C++?
11:25:15 <sshine> yes, but stronger typed pointers.
11:26:29 <albet70> C's pointers are not typed?
11:26:50 <sshine> they're loosely typed. you almost always have to cast things eventually.
11:26:54 <albet70> I totally forget how to write C
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11:27:36 <yushyin> good old voidpointers ;)
11:27:38 <sshine> and function pointers in C are somewhat of a hack.
11:27:40 <albet70> I most use python or kotlin at work
11:27:42 <sshine> yeah :)
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11:28:49 <sshine> rust differentiates between references, pointers, whether they're mutable/immutable, and several kinds of smart pointers: https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch15-00-smart-pointers.html -- depending on the use-case.
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11:39:32 <albet70> could >> implement in other languages?
11:39:40 <albet70> be implemented
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12:00:08 <geekosaur> it has been implemented, although it has shortcomings because very few languages are polymorphic in the way Haskell is
12:00:19 <geekosaur> usually it's called "andthen"
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12:07:19 <albet70> geekosaur, has it been implemented in python?
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12:07:35 <albet70> and what it looks like?
12:07:48 <geekosaur> I don't do python so I don't know
12:07:55 <geekosaur> probably someone has
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12:09:42 <albet70> ok
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12:12:02 <albet70> geekosaur, I googled python andThen, and it gives me "compose"...
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12:12:13 <albet70> composing functions
12:12:53 <geekosaur> mm, that may mean it's as close as it gets then
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12:13:18 <geekosaur> like I said, most languages aren't as polymorphic as Haskell is, the whole concept of "monad" is difficult for them
12:13:19 <albet70> I saw some python code using >>, I was very curious it, because I know what it's doing in haskell, then I wonder why someone in python would use it
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12:14:22 <albet70> and then I read the code in python, it makes no sense
12:14:54 <yushyin> maybe something similar in the future/promises api of python
12:15:22 <albet70> so I wonder the author write that, it seems he/she knowing >> like haskell, but they implement it wrong
12:15:42 <yushyin> https://docs.python.org/3/library/asyncio-future.html?#asyncio.Future.add_done_callback
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13:04:12 <albet70> is >> related to . ?
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13:05:09 <albet70> when m~ r->, <$> equal to .
13:05:34 <albet70> what about >> ?
13:05:35 <geekosaur> you could say >>= is . on a higher level. Arrowes were intended to capture that abstraction but it never quite worked in practice
13:05:54 <geekosaur> >> is just >>= discarding the input but keeping any effects
13:06:02 <geekosaur> *Arrows
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13:07:27 <albet70> :t (>>)
13:07:28 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> m b -> m b
13:07:40 <albet70> :t (>>=)
13:07:41 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
13:08:13 <albet70> :t (.)
13:08:14 <lambdabot> (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
13:09:41 <geekosaur> % :t (>>) @((->) _) -- let's see if this works
13:09:41 <yahb> geekosaur: (w -> a) -> (w -> b) -> w -> b
13:10:13 <geekosaur> not quite the same, but you can see the similarity
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13:10:43 <albet70> "geekosaur :% :t (>>) @((->) _) -- let's see if this works", what this mean?
13:10:55 <albet70> that @
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13:11:17 <geekosaur> it's a type application. I had to direct it to yahb because lambdabot doesn't understand type applications
13:11:48 <geekosaur> so I in effect told it to expand the type of (>>) using ((->) r) (function application) as the monad
13:12:32 <albet70> alright, when m~ (w->)
13:13:25 <albet70> but >> is similarity to >>=, not (.)
13:13:48 <albet70> (.) would be like (b -> c) -> m b -> m c
13:14:08 <albet70> >> like m a -> m b -> m b
13:14:44 <geekosaur> % :t (>>=) @((->) _)
13:14:44 <yahb> geekosaur: (w -> a) -> (a -> w -> b) -> w -> b
13:15:10 <geekosaur> this is closer to (.) but has that extra parameter in the middle
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13:15:46 <geekosaur> this is part of why Arrows never quite worked; there is a strong abstract similarity to (.) but not even Haskell can quite capture it
13:16:35 <geekosaur> actually we have a sort-of way now via Control.Category, but I think that requires you understand some category theory to work with it
13:16:52 <geekosaur> since it's modeling categories to capture the abstraction
13:17:46 <albet70> "yahb :geekosaur: (w -> a) -> (a -> w -> b) -> w -> b", (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c I don't see how this similarity
13:18:13 <albet70> not just the extra parameter in the middle
13:19:45 <albet70> when b~w, c~a, it would like (w->a) -> (x ->w) -> (x -> a)
13:20:42 <geekosaur> right, it's thrown off because the ((->) r) monad always injects that extra "r" (we call it "r" by convention but yahb called it "w")
13:21:12 <geekosaur> I used it because it comes closest to looking like (.) but the extra "w" complicates things
13:23:40 <geekosaur> Arrows make things fit together more directly by wrapping Monad in Kleisli, but at the cost that you have to use `arr` which strongly limits its usefulness
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13:26:46 <geekosaur> and the problem with showing this is (.) has only one type fitting its "type schema" which is not *quite* the same as ((->) r), but Monad has many that fit; and it's not easy to see how the two relate without using some category theory
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13:27:15 <geekosaur> Control.Category defines its own version of (.) which makes it a bit clearer
13:27:18 <geekosaur> hm
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13:27:45 <geekosaur> % :t (Control.Category..)
13:27:45 <yahb> geekosaur: forall {k} {cat :: k -> k -> *} {b :: k} {c :: k} {a :: k}. Category cat => cat b c -> cat a b -> cat a c
13:28:04 <geekosaur> clear as mud :(
13:28:14 <hpc> just ignore everything before "."
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14:23:25 <hololeap> what would be an example of a profunctor in haskell that is not strong?
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14:30:25 <xdej> /9
14:30:29 <xdej> sorry
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14:32:00 <hololeap> from the looks of it, Op is a Category, but not an Arrow, so it would be a profunctor that is not strong, right?
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14:33:00 <hololeap> although it's probably costrong
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14:38:10 <hololeap> % unfirst (Op (f :: forall d. (b,d) -> (a,d))) = Op $ \b -> fst $ f (b,undefined)
14:38:10 <yahb> hololeap: ; <interactive>:12:14: error:; * Couldn't match expected type: b -> a; with actual type: forall d. (b1, d) -> (a1, d); * When checking that the pattern signature: forall d. (b1, d) -> (a1, d); fits the type of its context: b -> a; In the pattern: f :: forall d. (b, d) -> (a, d); In the pattern: Op (f :: forall d. (b, d) -> (a, d)); * Relevant bindings incl
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14:43:57 <hololeap> % unfirst (Op (f :: (b,d) -> (a,d))) = Op $ \b -> fst $ f (b, undefined)
14:43:57 <yahb> hololeap:
14:44:02 <hololeap> % :t unfirst
14:44:02 <yahb> hololeap: Op (a, d) (b, d) -> Op a b
14:44:07 <hololeap> so yeah, it's costrong
14:47:10 <ProfSimm> Hey anyone here know physics theoreticians who wanna brainstorm about things with me?
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15:25:16 <Hecate> :27
15:25:18 <Hecate> eh
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15:33:36 <jiribenes> hololeap: Tagged :: Type -> Type -> Type from `tagged` has a Profunctor instance but not a Strong instance in `profunctors`
15:34:00 <jiribenes> (as far as I can tell)
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16:31:28 <EvanR> would you say that in foldr the f happens first, and in foldl the recursion happens first
16:31:42 <EvanR> and is this typical of right fold and left fold in general
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16:40:44 <Lycurgus> how is "recursion" different from "f"?
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17:12:45 <dsal> dante stopped working for me a while ago and I just finally got around to looking into the issue. It's trying to run some kind of pure nix shell to run a cabal repl or something that was just not going to happen. I told it to run `nix-shell -p stack --run 'stack ghci'` and suddenly everything works again.
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17:32:01 <Sqaure> I wonder if theres commonly used i18n library for haskell. Id be fine with a key-value with some sort of replacement mechanism for parameterized strings (that allows a replacement mechanism)?
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17:44:03 <sm> there's something in the shakespeare family of packages
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17:44:12 <sm> and an i18n section on hackage I believe
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17:45:04 <sshine> The i18n packages was unfortunately last released in 2016.
17:47:43 <sshine> Sqaure, there's a section on i18n in the Yesod book. https://www.yesodweb.com/book/internationalization -- but it seems like they didn't pick language-agnostic standards like gettext.
17:48:23 <sm> oh wow, people are really not using the https://hackage.haskell.org/packages/#cat:I18n category
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17:48:50 <Sqaure> I checked out shakespear and i18. I felt the former had too many dependencies. The latter seemed a bit too specialized
17:49:21 <Sqaure> ...and had no built in replacement.
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17:49:52 <sm> hgettext ?
17:49:53 <sshine> I guess the i18n package is a standard wrapper around gettext .po files. that's pretty neat, no?
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17:50:41 <Sqaure> i guess i can work around it
17:51:58 <hololeap> it looks like pandoc rolled their own as well: https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/blob/master/src/Text/Pandoc/Translations.hs
17:53:26 <maerwald> pretty basic
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18:41:03 <EvanR> is there a name for this pattern: your monad code is polymorphic in the monad but includes a subclass monad constraint to provide "API calls"
18:42:01 <EvanR> or this one: your code is in some custom monad, but is parameterized by an known monad m and there is a record of m actions in the context
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18:42:37 <EvanR> (I see these accomplish very similar things)
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18:43:31 <EvanR> I've only ever seen it referred to by these long winded explanations xD
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18:56:18 <sshine> EvanR, if I understand correctly, what you're describing are similar to what Matt Parsons calls "capabilities" here: https://www.parsonsmatt.org/2018/03/22/three_layer_haskell_cake.html -- or?
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18:59:18 <sshine> EvanR, or rather, that's one way to parameterise your monad over certain things... https://github.com/parsonsmatt/cardano-sl/blob/10e55bde9a5c0d9d28bca25950a8811407c5fc8c/docs/monads.md#the-has-constraints -- but I've seen other, simpler approaches related to free effect systems where you have simpler Has* classes.
18:59:42 <sshine> EvanR, I was gonna call that "has-style" type classes. but I can't find a reference to anyone calling them that. I'm sure I didn't come up with it, though.
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19:05:25 <EvanR> heh.... nice post. I'm not sure what capability refers to there. At the end they give up and call the three layers imperative, object oriented, and functional xD
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19:05:44 <EvanR> but they are covering what I'm talking about basically
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19:09:19 <[exa]> EvanR: re first one if you say "mtl-like HasMonads" everyone will know :] the second is much closer to actual effect systems and interpreters, perhaps some naming from the effect packages would fit
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19:10:43 <EvanR> mtl-like is like class Monad m => MonadCoolThing m where ?
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19:13:18 <[exa]> yes, MonadState MonadReader MonadWhatever
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19:14:10 <EvanR> is that naming scheme really common or is there something less Monady xD
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19:15:20 <[exa]> not sure, AFAIK everyone who goes with typeclasses just goes with that
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19:26:11 <sshine> EvanR, yeah so I think you can discuss granularity here. "has-style" could also be finer, e.g. HasLog, HasDatabase. and the particular example from cardano-sl was one degree more parameterised, e.g. Has LoggingParams. but here's a similar approach with GADTs: https://github.com/hasura/eff#eff-in-action
19:28:41 <EvanR> oh, here Effect is a datakind?
19:29:20 <EvanR> hmm no
19:29:55 <EvanR> the m out of nowhere in Filesystem is weird
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19:32:12 <sshine> hmm, yeah.
19:32:42 <sshine> I'm not sure about that, either.
19:33:29 <[exa]> freer? (there the "logging" of actions is the default though)
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20:14:16 <nf> guess i'll cross-post from #haskell-lens: is there some way to combine the indices of two indexed folds? for example, i'd want something like ["ab","cd"] ^@.. ifolded . ifolded to return [((0, 0), 'a'), ((0, 1), 'b'), ((1, 0), 'c'), ((1, 1), 'd')]
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20:31:48 <[exa]> nf: icompose (,) ?
20:32:23 <[exa]> (wild guess)
20:33:58 <nf> ah, that looks like what i want
20:34:10 <nf> or <.>
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20:34:50 <nf> yep, ifolded <.> ifolded
20:34:55 <nf> thanks [exa] !
20:35:39 <[exa]> oh wow, wild guess worked
20:35:42 <[exa]> \o/
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20:38:12 <nf> weirdly enough, folded <.> folded seems to work too
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20:39:59 [exa] stumped
20:40:00 <nf> seems like folded indexes any foldable generically, whereas ifolded has a separate typeclass
20:41:49 <[exa]> yeah possibly with better index types
20:42:39 <[exa]> ooh yeah, `FoldableWithIndex k (Map k)`
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20:43:33 <[exa]> wuw, some useful stuff there, `FoldableWithIndex [Int] Tree`
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20:44:24 <nf> nice
20:45:41 <nf> it gets weirder: TraversableWithIndex i f => TraversableWithIndex [i] (Free f)
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20:47:22 <[exa]> Free monads are basically trees with some piping around, so yeah, good :]
20:47:56 <[exa]> the one for Compose is nice too
20:48:23 <[exa]> I need some indexed bikeshedding project to play with all this stuff
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21:21:08 <euouae> I'm looking into the Alloy analyzer, https://alloytools.org/ does Haskell have any tools like this?
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21:22:41 <dsal> euouae: That's kind of a different class of thing, but I guess you could write such a thing in Haskell. I use TLA+ some which is written in Java, so if it can be done there, it can be done anywhere.
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21:24:36 <euouae> what do you use TLA+ for?
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21:25:11 <dsal> Describing whether a concept is even possible given known primitives.
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21:27:15 <dsal> Place I'm working has this thing written in some hacky node stuff with MongoDB. I modeled it in TLA+ to prove that it's completely impossible to guarantee it can any of the things they'd expect it to do (except for special cases where everything goes perfect).
21:27:35 <euouae> got'em
21:28:21 <euouae> I am starting with Alloy to test a design of a backend thing I want to write
21:28:32 <euouae> I don't know if this will be a waste of time or not but I'm giving it a shot
21:28:37 <dsal> I started by modeling my idea, which was really boring because my idea was fairly simple and just kind of worked. Makes that type of tool pretty confusing because like, yeah, the thing I thought works the way I think it might.
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21:33:00 <trcc> I am trying to write a simple CLI using optparse-applicative. The first argument has to be a string, without any option. I.e. ./program hello -arg1 -arg2 -arg3 where hello is the first argument and a string
21:33:48 <dsal> trcc: you can build named subcommand parsers like that.
21:34:19 <trcc> dsal: subcommand. That was the keyword I was after. Thank you, I will try and find it.
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21:34:38 <dsal> Yeah. optparse-applicative does a lot of stuff.
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21:35:10 <dsal> trcc, e.g.: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/5MOYg4gI/sink.txt
21:36:36 <trcc> dsal: ye makes sense. In this case I want to create a file. I.e. ./program hello creates a file called hello. ./program hello_world creates a file called hello_world etc
21:36:54 <trcc> so it is not really fixed like in that exampe
21:37:06 <dsal> Ah, then you probably don't want to do that. heh
21:37:49 <dsal> I do have a command to interact with s3 that works a bit like cp:
21:37:52 <euouae> trcc you can leave the argumetns unparsed, pop one out and then parse them
21:37:53 <dsal> dsmac:tesla dustin$ s3up create *.md blah
21:37:53 <dsal> E: Invalid paths for create: final parameter must be an object ending in /
21:38:27 <dsal> (i.e., if there are two arguments, the second can be anything, but if there are more than two, the last has to end in /)
21:38:47 <trcc> euouae: can you elaborte?
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21:39:16 <trcc> dsal: something like that. I need the first argument to be a string and then whatever optional arguments are next
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21:45:24 <euouae> trcc https://blog.ocharles.org.uk/posts/2012-12-17-24-days-of-hackage-optparse-applicative.html
21:45:36 <trcc> thanks
21:45:59 <[itchyjunk]> Hi, i wanted to mod some number with %. i wrote a function and from what haskell told me realized that my signature should be (Integral a) => a -> String
21:46:22 <trcc> ye exactly euouae. thanks
21:46:39 <[itchyjunk]> Now i wanted to `iterate` this function on numbers 1 through 10. but `iterate f [1 .. 10]` doesn't work because i think these are Num and not Integrals
21:46:42 <trcc> actually just found the argument parser here hehe https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optparse-applicative-0.16.1.0#builders
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21:48:25 <euouae> [itchyjunk], what do you mean by "iterate"?
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21:48:48 <euouae> Because the iterate function will apply f multiple times, and the signature doesn't match
21:48:53 <[itchyjunk]> i wanted to repeatedly apply function f to natural numbers between 1 and n. google recommended iterate :s maybe i misread
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21:48:57 <[itchyjunk]> oh
21:48:59 <geekosaur> this whole thing sounds confused. in particular % is not mod
21:49:31 <[itchyjunk]> oops, right % is not mod, `mod` is mod. i've fixed that part already, sorry
21:49:40 <[itchyjunk]> let me post the code as well
21:49:47 <euouae> > take 10 $ iterate (*2) 1
21:49:48 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512]
21:50:09 <geekosaur> > take 10 $ iterate (*2) 1.0
21:50:11 <lambdabot> [1.0,2.0,4.0,8.0,16.0,32.0,64.0,128.0,256.0,512.0]
21:50:12 <[itchyjunk]> https://bpa.st/QQSQ
21:50:22 <[itchyjunk]> this is my helper function that i wanted to apply to a list of natural numbers
21:51:04 <geekosaur> hm. is there a point to making it any Integral instead of just specializing to Int or Integer?
21:51:27 <[itchyjunk]> i loaded the function without a signature and checked with :t
21:51:37 <[itchyjunk]> i originally had (Num a) which gave me errors
21:51:50 <[itchyjunk]> :t was using Integral so i used that
21:51:50 <lambdabot> error:
21:51:50 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope:
21:51:50 <lambdabot> was :: t0 -> (a0 -> Integer) -> t1 -> Expr -> t2 -> t3 -> t
21:51:59 <[itchyjunk]> oops sorry
21:52:00 <geekosaur> usually you don't need or want the fully generalized type, to be honest
21:52:09 <geekosaur> it just complicates things later
21:53:02 <geekosaur> but, in any case, you misunderstand the problem. specifically, this is valid:
21:53:11 <[itchyjunk]> changing it to Int and Integer both generate error
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21:53:51 <geekosaur> :t [1 .. 10] :: Integral a => [a]
21:53:52 <lambdabot> Integral a => [a]
21:54:06 <geekosaur> maybe you should show the actual code and actual error
21:54:09 <geekosaur> @where paste
21:54:09 <lambdabot> Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
21:54:18 <[itchyjunk]> the code i posted is the actual error
21:54:22 <[itchyjunk]> code*
21:55:02 <[itchyjunk]> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/7hmCUEA6
21:55:16 <[itchyjunk]> Int, Integer and Integral in signature respectively
21:55:31 <geekosaur> ok, that one is because you misunderstand the difference between a type and a constraint
21:55:47 <geekosaur> Int and Integer are types. Integral and Num are constraints
21:56:08 <[itchyjunk]> oh i thought you contained it to a type
21:56:27 <geekosaur> (Integral a => a) means "any type a which has an Integral instance"
21:56:56 <geekosaur> if you wanted to use Int you'd just say Int instead of (Integral a) => … a …
21:57:47 <euouae> Integral can be thought of as an interface. It's the things that you can demand of a type
21:58:30 <geekosaur> ^
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21:59:49 <EvanR> the implementation for that type is sitting in some pile somewhere, and putting the constraint lets you grab the right one without explicitly find it and passing it around
22:00:03 <[itchyjunk]> hmmm
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22:00:31 <[itchyjunk]> So what does the Integral interface give me that Num interface doesn't? Because seems to not work with Num interface, right?
22:00:36 <EvanR> division
22:00:40 <[itchyjunk]> ahhh
22:00:43 <geekosaur> :t mod
22:00:44 <lambdabot> Integral a => a -> a -> a
22:00:53 <geekosaur> :t divMod
22:00:54 <lambdabot> Integral a => a -> a -> (a, a)
22:01:30 <EvanR> > :t 0 `div` 0
22:01:32 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’
22:01:36 <EvanR> :t 0 `div` 0
22:01:37 <lambdabot> Integral a => a
22:01:38 <geekosaur> divMod is actually the more fundamental one on most CPUs including x86; you get division and remainder at the same time from a single machine opcode
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22:02:03 <EvanR> is divMod actually implemented that way? sounds too good to be true xD
22:02:06 <geekosaur> so div and mod do divMod at machien level and throw halfd of it away
22:02:11 <geekosaur> yes
22:02:27 <geekosaur> there is no specific "div" or "mod" machine op iirc
22:02:32 <geekosaur> just a div+mod op
22:02:48 <geekosaur> which puts the div part in one register and the mod in another
22:02:48 <[itchyjunk]> oh interesting
22:02:53 <EvanR> how about multiply with the excess
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22:04:31 <EvanR> that gets throw away too I think
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22:04:44 <dsal> Yay, I finally used Finite for the first time in a real program.
22:04:52 <geekosaur> anyway the machine op requires types that are Integral, so div, mod, and divMod have that constraint
22:05:08 <EvanR> congratz, you're now a finitist
22:05:12 <geekosaur> the Num constraint gives you (+), (-), and (*) but no division
22:05:28 <geekosaur> Integral gives you divMod and friends; Fractional gives you (/) which is real division
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22:07:14 <geekosaur> ("real" in the sense of (a simulation of) mathematical "real numbers" as distinct from mathematical integers)
22:08:00 <EvanR> > (5 :+ 0) / (0 :+ 1)
22:08:02 <lambdabot> 0.0 :+ (-5.0)
22:08:26 <EvanR> unreal division
22:08:37 <geekosaur> I was going to leave the complex plane out of it, this is already confusing enough :)
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22:09:46 <geekosaur> anyway haskell tends to get somewhat precise about these kinds of things (although not precise enough for some; revisions of the Num hierarchy are requested somewhat regularly and there are some implementations on Hackage)
22:10:59 <geekosaur> … so enough with that diversion. you said even with the Integral constraint you were getting an error?
22:11:26 <geekosaur> the only thing I see in your paste is a tabs warning
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22:11:59 <euouae> You also mentioned 'iterate' and I think you mean 'map'
22:12:00 <geekosaur> much like python, haskell is indentation sensitive and editors don't always agree with each other or the compiler about what a tab means, so it's best to avoid them
22:12:04 <geekosaur> yeh
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22:12:36 <[itchyjunk]> so Num is like natural numbers
22:12:46 <[itchyjunk]> with no division
22:12:57 <geekosaur> it's the set of operations that are meaningful on any kind of number
22:13:01 <[itchyjunk]> so Integral must be like.. something else. Z ring?
22:13:20 <geekosaur> remember, these are essentially interfaces
22:13:47 <[itchyjunk]> right
22:13:56 <geekosaur> so Num is the set of operations you can define on any kind of number (integers, reals, complex, quaternion, you name it)
22:14:28 <geekosaur> Integral is the operations you can define on specifically integer-like numbers, namely integer division / modulus
22:14:55 <geekosaur> Fractional is (floating point) division and related operations
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22:15:25 <geekosaur> Floating is trigonometric operations and other things that can result in transcendental numbers
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22:16:17 <[itchyjunk]> hmm i've never come across Floating type data structure i think
22:16:25 <geekosaur> :t sin
22:16:26 <lambdabot> Floating a => a -> a
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22:16:38 <geekosaur> :t sqrt
22:16:39 <lambdabot> Floating a => a -> a
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22:17:20 <geekosaur> usually this distinction doesn't mean much because you're almost always using Double or occasionally Complex Double, which is both Fractional and Floating
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22:19:11 <[itchyjunk]> Ah, things can implement multiple interfaces
22:19:18 <geekosaur> yep
22:19:27 <geekosaur> % :info Int
22:19:28 <yahb> geekosaur: type Int :: *; data Int = I# Int#; -- Defined in `GHC.Types'; instance Eq Int -- Defined in `GHC.Classes'; instance Ord Int -- Defined in `GHC.Classes'; instance Enum Int -- Defined in `GHC.Enum'; instance Num Int -- Defined in `GHC.Num'; instance Real Int -- Defined in `GHC.Real'; instance Show Int -- Defined in `GHC.Show'; instance [safe] PrintfArg Int -- Defined in `Text.Printf'; instance Data Int --
22:19:48 <geekosaur> you can ask ghci for the full set
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22:21:03 <geekosaur> so as to your earlier comment about the Z ring, the standard Haskell numeric typeclasses don't really capture the notion of rings. there are alternative typeclasses that do
22:21:27 <EvanR> Num isn't the same as a ring just because haskell likes to take laws seriously, which would make Double for instance not Nummable
22:21:32 <geekosaur> although those have their own problems because Int, for example, doesn't fit them well because it's secretly a quotient type
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22:22:00 <geekosaur> which you can't truly capture within Haskell
22:22:24 <EvanR> Int is a cromulent ring though isn't it
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22:22:55 <geekosaur> Int is Z/2^64, which is a perfecly fine ring but not one you can describe in Haskell
22:23:15 <EvanR> that's Word
22:23:19 <[itchyjunk]> hmm
22:23:39 <geekosaur> mm, yes, sorry
22:24:07 <EvanR> if it obeys laws... to hell with describing it in haskell XD
22:25:47 <[itchyjunk]> I thought math people liked haskell because of math axioms being carried over :D
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22:26:00 <EvanR> you can use other types that obey your laws if you want
22:26:01 <[itchyjunk]> at least, proof assistance seems to be popularly written in FP
22:26:17 <[itchyjunk]> ah true, i guess the laws don't generally matter
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22:26:35 <EvanR> haskell doesn't check your laws, unfortunately
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22:27:03 <EvanR> though it may rely on them sometimes
22:27:15 <EvanR> Functor laws, Monad laws
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22:30:10 <euouae> I like Haskell because I can very quickly dish out programs that do what I want :P
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22:32:40 <[itchyjunk]> People using Py say the same :D
22:32:47 <[itchyjunk]> I wonder if people who use asm say the same also
22:33:53 <EvanR> yeah, menuetOS (OS by/for asm programmers)
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23:15:09 <unit73e> did the SDL2 animation example base on time. next will do movement. proper movement, not that choppy lazyfoo example.
23:15:32 <unit73e> with colision that's enough for a simple game
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23:16:13 <unit73e> It's taking some time but I'll finish this
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23:16:31 <unit73e> I mean this here: https://gitlab.com/unit73e/sdl2-examples
23:16:43 <Lycurgus> what machine lang coders could/can say is that nothing is getting between them and the iron
23:17:23 <unit73e> except what's between the chair and keyboard :p
23:17:23 <dolio> They can't say that, though.
23:17:45 <dolio> Unless they buy a CPU without microcode or something.
23:18:15 <Lycurgus> in the day, microcoded arches weren't that common
23:18:45 <dolio> I mean, people will still say it anyway.
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23:19:15 <unit73e> if you're talking about why you like Haskell that's because I don't like to do maintenance and Haskell encourages programmers do avoid doing some of the silly things that will later make the app unmaintainable
23:19:36 <Lycurgus> also there were user microprogrammable archees
23:19:51 <Lycurgus> only one major one though
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23:21:49 <unit73e> and then java/c/python/c# devs say, oh muh mutable objects are so much easier to work with, yes but it's also a lot easier to mess your entire program with that
23:22:50 <Lycurgus> also the biggest microcoded arch, 360/370 the instruction set in effect was the machine/iron
23:24:34 <Lycurgus> there's a lot of free stuff from haskell but generally you have no idea how it actually at the lowest level works
23:25:25 <Lycurgus> relatively speaking, it's a faith
23:26:32 <unit73e> does a driver have to care how the gasoline electrons collide with each other when the engine starts?
23:26:46 <unit73e> it's the same for high level languages
23:27:49 <Lycurgus> what you actually have to be believer of though is the pure mathematics is the only right model of computation
23:27:52 <geekosaur> I'm inclined to agree with that. Even for C I'm placing my faith in the compiler
23:27:59 <geekosaur> enh
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23:28:10 <geekosaur> Haskell is rather far from pure maths
23:28:21 <geekosaur> and I never use it as if it were
23:29:09 <geekosaur> something loike numeric-prelude gets you much closer to pure mathematics as computing substrate. you can go count how many packages use it at packdeps.haskellers.com/reverse
23:29:53 <Lycurgus> i said that was the notional conceit, not the claimed realization
23:30:02 <geekosaur> Monad is *inspired by* category theory. it doesn't require you to know CT to use it, or even to develop your own monads
23:30:12 <Lycurgus> like communicating objects before it
23:31:34 <smunix> unit73e, nice! What would it take to add nix to it? It may help remove the `Requirements` section
23:31:43 <Lycurgus> well they were coeval igess, but then OO got stale and corporatized
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23:34:30 <unit73e> smunix, nix as in nixos? I put SDL2 apps/plugins required to be generic for any OS. Should be easy enough for anyone to figure out, I think.
23:34:43 <EvanR> unit73e, see also #haskell-game xD
23:35:06 <unit73e> there's a specific haskell game server? lol
23:35:07 <unit73e> thanks
23:35:20 <EvanR> channel
23:35:25 <EvanR> just a*
23:35:28 <geekosaur> "room" if you prefer
23:35:38 <unit73e> yes channel, I mix a lot because of discord and friends :\
23:35:57 <EvanR> fr--- libera is the server lol
23:36:02 <unit73e> yeah
23:36:16 <EvanR> well, network I guess
23:36:26 <unit73e> and hashtags used to mean channels but twitter ruined that lol
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23:36:51 <Sqaure> Is there some easy way to query Aeson "Value" type. Im thinking lens like getters if you will.
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23:38:20 <unit73e> ? you have to give a type to Aeson, not the other way around, right?
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23:39:29 <Sqaure> Aeson is the lib that defines a tree like structure called Value. Basically just typed json. I see now there is lens-aeson
23:40:05 <seanparsons> Sqaure: I can definitely recommend lens-aeson, I often use it to drill into instances of Value.
23:40:30 <Sqaure> seanparsons, ah ok. I guess I'll roll with that then
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All times are in UTC on 2021-11-21.