Logs on 2021-11-22 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:04:25	<dibblego>	or waargonaut, but it's not aeson
00:04:31	<dibblego>	also, g'day seanparsons
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00:10:34	<Axman6>	lens-aeson plus the uniplate stuff in the lens library lets you do some super powerful stuff with aeson Values - need to find all the URLs in strings anywhere? Bam, it's like 100 characters to do that
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00:37:09	<sub0>	hi. what is the equivalent of this in haskell? TYPE p = malloc(sizeof p); cfunc(p);
00:38:03	<sub0>	closest I could get is this, but what if it was a pointer to a type where I can't or don't want to specify some dummy value: withArray [1] $ \p -> cfunc( p)
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00:41:19	<geekosaur>	@index alloca
00:41:19	<lambdabot>	Foreign.Marshal.Alloc, Foreign.Marshal, Foreign, Foreign.Safe, Foreign.Marshal.Safe
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00:42:20	<geekosaur>	there is also malloc but you'll really want to free it in a related value's finalizer
00:45:38	<sub0>	thanks, works nicely
00:47:51	<sub0>	alloca $ \p -> do cfunc p; peek p
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00:52:10	<jle`>	any guide on how to migrate template haskell to the ghc 9.0 version that uses 'Code' for typed quotations?
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00:55:18	<jle`>	oh i just needed to add a newtype wrapper in a careful place
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01:10:17	<Axman6>	Be wery wery careful, we're huntin' newtypes
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02:20:56	<Axman6>	@hoogle Lens s t a b -> (a -> m b) -> s -> m t
02:20:57	<lambdabot>	No results found
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02:23:34	<Axman6>	there's definitely a lensy thing for that right?
02:24:19	<awpr>	> _1 print (2, 4)
02:24:20	<lambdabot>	<IO ((),Integer)>
02:24:39	<awpr>	the lens is already that result type to begin with (for any Functor m)
02:25:01	<awpr>	there might be a function `traverseOf` for that, but it's just `id`
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02:31:43	<Boarders_>	do any of you know in brick how I can add a background colour behind each of the widgets (not changing any of the widget colours?
02:31:58	<Boarders_>	it seems like the drawApp thing should allow me to do it with layering but I can't figure it out
02:33:09	<Boarders_>	e.g. in this snake example: https://samtay.github.io/posts/introduction-to-brick how would one render the area outside of the boxes as another colour?
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02:37:08	<sm>	Boarders_: do something with the outermost/largest widget
02:37:45	<sm>	there is a `margin` function that puts a margin of a certain colour
02:38:15	<sm>	I guess you want it over the full screen, showing through transparent foreground widgets ?
02:38:45	<Boarders_>	yes, exactly that last thing
02:39:21	<Boarders_>	by outermost/largest, do you mean the last widget returned in appDraw?
02:41:11	<Boarders_>	ah no, I think that is something to do with buffering
02:42:11	<sm>	Boarders_: I don't see anything about transparency in brick or vty, unfortunately
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02:42:57	<sm>	it might be in brick's issue tracker. If not I guess you have to implement it yourself (make a custom widget that combines your layers)
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02:43:42	<Boarders_>	with the last option, do you make the widget and then just give it an attribute with the relevant background colour?
02:43:47	<sm>	ansi-terminal-game is a brick-like thing where transparency is easy, just FYI
02:44:22	<Boarders_>	thanks, I'll give that a look
02:44:42	<sm>	Boarders_: a widget that fills the window and within itself implements the painter's algorithm or something
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02:45:04	<sm>	but I would ask jtdaugherty in the tracker, he is very responsive
02:45:55	<sm>	here's some discussion: https://github.com/jtdaugherty/brick/issues/74
02:47:25	<sm>	seems like you could make transparent edges (padding), but maybe holes are harder
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03:08:02	<jackdk>	I have a function where I'm accumulating a result backwards, then reversing it at the end (like lisp `PUSH`/`NREVERSE` idiom, I guess). Does this have a common name or combinator somewhere?
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03:11:17	<EvanR>	no because if taken to extremes it can be pretty inefficient
03:11:29	<EvanR>	if you can, try to accumulate results forwards
03:11:42	<EvanR>	lazily
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03:30:24	<dsal>	Can someone make Num smaller for the next ghc release?
03:30:40	<dsal>	I'm not quite sure how to think about things like `negate` on types that be negative.
03:30:43	<jackdk>	thanks EvanR . it turned out my problem was compactly expressed as a Data.List.unfold anyway
03:31:03	<EvanR>	cool
03:31:46	<dsal>	Related: ghci line editing is severely mangled on my machine. Does this sound like a known issue?
03:31:58	<dsal>	8.10.7 on M1
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03:32:59	<dsal>	> negate (5 :: Word)
03:33:01	<lambdabot>	18446744073709551611
03:33:06	<dsal>	I guess I can do something like that.
03:33:22	<EvanR>	> negate (5 :: Natural)
03:33:23	<lambdabot>	error:
03:33:23	<lambdabot>	Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Natural’
03:33:54	<EvanR>	> negate (5 :: Numeric.Natural)
03:33:55	<lambdabot>	error:
03:33:55	<lambdabot>	Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Numeric.Natural’
03:34:16	<dsal>	That's the other option.
03:34:21	<EvanR>	I guess Natural was voted off the island
03:34:23	<dsal>	I don't really like either.
03:34:52	<dsal>	I'm using Data.Fixed, so I can at least do something reasonable.
03:35:29	<dsal>	Er, Data.Finite
03:36:01	<dsal>	λ> negate (5 :: Finite 11)
03:36:01	<dsal>	finite 6
03:36:16	<dsal>	I guess since it already does it for me, I can just generalizednewtypederiving it and call it a day.
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03:38:17	<dsal>	Oh, well, fromInteger is partial. I didn't expect that.
03:41:04	<awpr>	there's not really a good Num instance for the finite sets. modular arithmetic is okay enough, but in the not-uncommon case where people do arithmetic assuming it won't be out-of-range, having it silently wrap can hide bugs, and it's extra unintuitive for `fromInteger`
03:42:00	<awpr>	do you want Num for anything other than supporting integral literals?
03:43:05	<dsal>	Heh, not really. Maybe some addition or something.
03:43:12	<dsal>	I'm representing relative time as the number of minutes since midnight.
03:43:28	<dsal>	Yeah, addition might be nice, and them modulo is the right thing to do.
03:43:56	<awpr>	hmm, maybe. seems like you'd want modular addition with an overflow flag
03:44:14	<awpr>	like you'd have in adding digits of a positional number system
03:44:29	<dsal>	This is the kind of thing that's not likely to be used incorrectly, but I decided not to make it super difficult to use for the normal case where someone wants to just stick a number in a piece of code.
03:46:14	<awpr>	yeah, my thinking is that literals should be separate from the other parts of `Num`, and along with some extra features for validating literal values, that's `dependent-literals-plugin`
03:46:30	<awpr>	it was actually created specifically to deal with the problem of literals for `Fin`s
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03:49:36	<dsal>	Yeah, I'd like to have just the representation thing, then maybe have + and * and abs/negate and - and stuff be all separate.
03:50:02	<dsal>	It's a small change, should be able to get in shortly.
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03:51:51	<awpr>	lol that's why I went for a syntax plugin. very little chance for Num to grow a superclass or literals to move to another function, at least without some new typeclass features like implicit superclass impls
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03:52:09	<awpr>	but just rewriting literals to my own typeclass method is easy
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03:53:36	<dsal>	For my use case, ~nobody's going to use this code and if I ever do, I'm just going to do a num literal probably. Or conversion from int that should fit.
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03:54:39	<awpr>	yeah, fair enough. it was only worth it to me because there were Fin literals all over the place, and if literals or arithmetic was out of range, there was no stack trace
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06:47:44	<hololeap_>	this might be a hard question to answer, but why does `cabal info` take so long to run?
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07:48:33	<sclv>	hololeap: it runs pretty quick for me on the latest cabal. but in general its got to (i think) scan through the entire zipped collection of hackage cabal files to find the ones of interest
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07:50:35	<sclv>	i.e. `cabal info bytestring` runs in 1.5 secs on my box
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11:44:31	<Franciman>	does haskell allow talking about propositional identity?
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13:52:22	<timCF>	Hello! Are there any runtime perfornamce issues because using TypeApplications `@a` syntax instead of `Proxy :: Proxy a` in generic functions with `forall a.`? For me `@a` looks better, and I'll use it any day of the week instead of Proxy, but is it coming for free in terms of performance?
13:52:48	<merijn>	timCF: Performance: Probably. Maintenance: No
13:52:56	<dminuoso>	TypeApplication could probably be cheaper since there's no token that GHC must optimize away
13:53:08	<dminuoso>	But I call premature optimization
13:54:02	<timCF>	You mean TypeApplications might be even better in terms of performance?
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13:54:25	<merijn>	TypeApplications may also break randomly when your dependencies OR compiler update, so...
13:54:26	<dminuoso>	timCF: Personally I prefer Proxy in most situations because a) it guarantees stable and communicatable API, b) doesn't demand yet-another extension from a user, and it's often easier to pass things around by binding a proxy pattern rather than introduce some forall at some outer level
13:55:19	<merijn>	TypeApplications is great, if you like things like "accidentall tying the stability of my API to implementation details of your specific compiler version"!
13:55:20	<dminuoso>	If both sides (the definition and call site) are under your full control, it probably doesn't matter
13:55:34	<dminuoso>	But be sure to introduce all variables explicitly via forall
13:56:52	<timCF>	merijn: dminuoso: thanks!
13:57:23	<timCF>	merijn: you mean it might brake when I'm using some dependency, and then they switch order in forall expression for some reason?
13:57:38	<dminuoso>	Also, TypeApplications tends to be a bit brittle when since you cant apply polymorphic things to visible type arguments after inference has done its job
13:57:48	<merijn>	timCF: Yes. And also if they never used an explicit forall and the GHC infers a different order for implicit foralls
13:57:49	<dminuoso>	e.g.:
13:57:52	<dminuoso>	% f = id
13:57:52	<yahb>	dminuoso:
13:57:54	<dminuoso>	% :t f
13:57:54	<yahb>	dminuoso: a -> a
13:58:04	<dminuoso>	% :t f @Int
13:58:05	<yahb>	dminuoso: ; <interactive>:1:1: error:; * Cannot apply expression of type `a0 -> a0'; to a visible type argument `Int'; * In the expression: f @Int
13:58:06	<merijn>	timCF: Which is not a hypothetical situation, because we've already had 1 GHC release that broke TypeApplications that way
13:58:19	<merijn>	(changed the order constraints were inferred in)
13:58:23	<dminuoso>	timCF: ^- Do instantly and intuitively know why this is?
13:59:12	<timCF>	dminuoso: AllowAmbiguousTypes or something like this?
13:59:16	<dminuoso>	Nope.
13:59:31	<merijn>	Is it...the monomorphism restriction? :D
13:59:38	<dminuoso>	Nope
13:59:42	<merijn>	aww
13:59:43	<kuribas>	merijn: solution: always use explicit forall.
14:00:04	<dminuoso>	timCF: You cant apply things with "invisible" type variables to visible type arguments.
14:00:14	<dminuoso>	There's subtle reasons for why all that is
14:00:40	<dminuoso>	But the consequence is that you cant use TypeApplications as freely because as soon as GHC does type inference, you cant use TypeApplications anymore
14:00:51	<dminuoso>	That is, if GHC repolymorphizes
14:00:54	<merijn>	kuribas: Do your dependencies do that, though?
14:01:12	<dminuoso>	timCF: Proxy is really much more solid and obvious. :)
14:01:20	<timCF>	merijn: who knows really :)
14:01:22	<dminuoso>	Albeit a bit noisy, but other than that it has mostly just benefits
14:01:31	<merijn>	kuribas: Also, I don't, because I dislike TypeApplications for reasons above
14:01:31	<kuribas>	merijn: I don't use TypeApplications if they don't.
14:01:50	<dminuoso>	timCF: Though you can do one interesting combination
14:01:52	<dminuoso>	That one I favor
14:01:57	<dminuoso>	Proxy with TypeApplications
14:02:03	<kuribas>	Just use a language where you can apply types as arguments.
14:02:04	<dminuoso>	f (Proxy @Int)
14:02:12	<dminuoso>	This is a nice middle ground
14:02:16	<timCF>	dminuoso: that's actually cool
14:02:58	<timCF>	kuribas: for example?
14:03:05	<kuribas>	timCF: idris
14:03:07	<merijn>	Idris :p
14:03:10	<timCF>	hmmm
14:03:11	<merijn>	Agda, Coq
14:03:18	<merijn>	timCF: He's mostly joking :p
14:03:21	<merijn>	(I assume)
14:03:30	<timCF>	Are they better version of Haskell then? :)
14:03:42	<timCF>	(probably not)
14:03:52	<Hecate>	Idris 2
14:03:58	<kuribas>	merijn: yes and no. If you are doing extensive type level programming, you may be better of with idris than with haskell.
14:04:12	<merijn>	timCF: Define "beter", "version", and "haskell" :p
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14:05:34	<timCF>	Prelude> better version haskell
14:05:34	<timCF>
14:05:34	<timCF>	<interactive>:1:1: error:
14:05:34	<timCF>	Variable not in scope: better :: t0 -> t1 -> t
14:05:34	<timCF>
14:05:36	<timCF>	<interactive>:1:8: error: Variable not in scope: version
14:05:39	<timCF>
14:05:41	<timCF>	<interactive>:1:16: error: Variable not in scope: haskell
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14:05:50	<timCF>	:)
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14:09:23	<kuribas>	merijn: idris is not production ready, but it will never be if people keep shoehorning type level stuff into haskell, instead of using a more appropriate language.
14:09:37	<maerwald>	kuribas++
14:10:19	<merijn>	Haskell won't be production ready if people keep doing that too :p
14:10:31	<maerwald>	but I want my toys!
14:11:45	<kuribas>	merijn: it has been for a long time.
14:12:14	<kuribas>	merijn: wait, you mean it will not be production ready if people keep adding on top of it?
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14:12:33	<timCF>	merijn: I actually never tried any of them (Idris, Agda, Coq). Which of them is the most enterprise-oriented in your opinion? Toys are important, but I'm kinda doing web programming.. It will be hard without Persistent, Esqueleto, Yesod, Servant, Conduit and others
14:12:54	<kuribas>	merijn: If so, I agree. I'd rather see other improvements than DH.
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14:13:08	<kuribas>	in particular tooling improvements.
14:13:26	<merijn>	kuribas: The latter, yes
14:13:44	<dminuoso>	Web development itself is a disgusting field honestly
14:14:06	<kuribas>	timCF: frankly none of them.
14:14:11	<dminuoso>	More so than other fields this requires good availability of libraries to help pull the weight.
14:14:25	<kuribas>	timCF: you may use them as a prototype, or for verifying parts of your program.
14:14:28	<timCF>	dminuoso: With Haskell not that disgusting actually. After switch from Erlang I'm sleeping much better at night.
14:14:59	<dminuoso>	We dont have a plethora of good options to generate HTML with
14:15:10	<timCF>	Yesod/Blaze?
14:15:17	<dminuoso>	Highly opinionated.
14:15:24	<maerwald>	dminuoso: because we're busy adding more complicated stuff to our toybelt
14:15:29	<maerwald>	that serves a few edge cases
14:16:02	<dminuoso>	There's also reflex-dom if you enjoy FRP
14:16:13	<dminuoso>	But the toolstack you start accomulating gets unreal
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14:16:34	<kuribas>	IMO Dependent Haskell makes even less sense for teaching.
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14:18:33	<dminuoso>	timCF: Also yesod is becoming less and less relevant, there's not as many active contributions anymore
14:18:50	<dminuoso>	And it comes with a bus factor of 1.1
14:18:54	<kuribas>	dminuoso: as opposed to what?
14:18:56	<maerwald>	fpco seems to shift more into devops, rust and blockchain
14:19:11	<dminuoso>	kuribas: As opposed to the past.
14:19:14	<dminuoso>	https://github.com/yesodweb/yesod/graphs/contributors
14:19:53	<kuribas>	dminuoso: I meant, what are people using then?
14:20:09	<dminuoso>	No clue
14:20:18	<kuribas>	servant?
14:20:26	<kuribas>	spock, ...
14:20:28	<dminuoso>	Based on various factors Id assume web developers simply pick more suitable tools.
14:20:36	<dminuoso>	Based on surrounding technologies
14:20:41	<maerwald>	same for snap https://github.com/snapframework/snap/graphs/contributors
14:20:41	<dminuoso>	Say they might build the frontend in reactjs
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14:21:22	<dminuoso>	maerwald: Yup.
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14:22:42	<dminuoso>	From a business point of view, deciding to simply do it in Django seems more worthwhile. You have to be fairly religious to do web development in Haskell.
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14:23:27	<merijn>	dminuoso: The kinda religious that'd just switch to Ur/Web ;)
14:23:47	<kuribas>	dminuoso: or clojure?
14:24:16	<timCF>	dminuoso: Yesod is just enterprise web framework for Haskell, when I've started to use it - I had no idea how to write actual Haskell, but was already able to build websites with postgres storage. And then I've gradually learned about stuff like Functors, Applicatives, Monads, Alternatives (just new use cases when more complex web forms were needed)
14:24:28	<dminuoso>	timCF: What does "enterprise web framework" even mean?
14:24:41	<maerwald>	dminuoso: you start with no clue what you're doing
14:24:47	<dminuoso>	ah heh
14:24:55	<timCF>	dminuoso: maerwald: exactly
14:25:36	<dminuoso>	kuribas: Like I said, Id focus on picking a language that has rich tooling and active participation of wide industry. For web development, that's mostly JavaScript and some Python.
14:25:43	<timCF>	It's not the most efficient way of learning Haskell anyway. It's actually very inefficient, but works for some people
14:25:53	<merijn>	dminuoso: I have a better solution!
14:25:58	<Franciman>	dminuoso: I would choose a language which is not lazy
14:25:59	<merijn>	dminuoso: I just gave up on having a website! :p
14:26:02	<dminuoso>	merijn: Yup.
14:26:19	<Franciman>	default laziness is plain dumb, optimal evaluation is much better idea
14:26:39	<kuribas>	dminuoso: you might not use haskell at all! Except for the blockchain!
14:26:41	<timCF>	Franciman: just use StrictData and you will be safe in most cases
14:26:45	<merijn>	Default lazy is still better than default strict
14:26:59	<maerwald>	merijn: that's hard to assess
14:27:22	<Franciman>	sure
14:27:26	<Franciman>	default lazy on the web
14:27:30	<Franciman>	so that chromium consumes 200GB
14:27:32	<Franciman>	instead of 32
14:27:39	<Franciman>	is awesome choice
14:27:44	<maerwald>	the only real argument pro default laziness is that GHC can optimize some stuff better
14:27:47	<Franciman>	web sucks :P
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14:28:01	<maerwald>	but that's a brittle argument from a language perspective
14:28:04	<merijn>	maerwald: I have a better argument
14:28:18	<merijn>	maerwald: "too lazy" can always be solved locally. "too strict" cannot
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14:28:29	<Franciman>	I am speaking about web dev
14:28:35	<maerwald>	merijn: well, that's not true... I have a complicated example where that didn't work
14:28:38	<merijn>	Therefore it's easier to obtain the desired semantics by having default lazy
14:28:43	<maerwald>	but it's proprietary code
14:28:44	<dminuoso>	Third opinion: Both suck, a lazy-polymorphic like levity would be ideal.
14:28:51	<dminuoso>	Let the user pick what they want.
14:28:53	<merijn>	dminuoso: Yes, that's what I want
14:29:04	<merijn>	dminuoso: And well get started on, as soon as someone will pay me :p
14:29:17	<Franciman>	I also don't understand why you have to pick between a totally wrong solution (laziness) and a totally incorrect approximation (strictness)
14:29:18	<merijn>	dminuoso: Together with proper, pure, exceptions
14:29:21	<Franciman>	when you can choose optimal evaluation
14:29:25	<maerwald>	the final value was forced, but there was a huge intermediate thunk buildup, which caused immense performance regression in a hot loop... forcing the final value doesn't help you at all
14:30:06	<maerwald>	so we had to go through the entire codebase and identify the issues... most of them were in data constructors
14:30:32	<maerwald>	that's why some people say laziness is global state
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14:31:55	<Franciman>	laziness is a bit of cargo cult, because optimal evaluation is not industry read yet
14:32:00	<maerwald>	and that issue was disrupting the business
14:32:05	<maerwald>	and cost money
14:32:12	<Franciman>	it's become axiomatic
14:32:17	<Franciman>	either laziness or strictness
14:32:20	<Franciman>	how about no?
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14:33:00	<maerwald>	Franciman: by the time we have something better, I'll not be programming anymore :D
14:33:02	<lortabac>	Franciman: I guess you answered your own question. Optimal evaluation is not production-ready yet
14:33:17	<lortabac>	it's mostly a research topic AFAIK
14:33:41	<Franciman>	wasn't haskell the same?
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14:35:41	<lortabac>	Franciman: yes, it took a long time to make laziness even remotely usable
14:35:53	<merijn>	Not really, there were a bunch of lazy languages. Haskell exists so that people could focus their work on one language instead of reinventing the wheel every time
14:35:55	<lortabac>	the first IO system in Haskell was not very ergonomic
14:36:16	<Franciman>	merijn: not really to what?
14:36:20	<lortabac>	merijn: did those languages have a usable IO system?
14:36:30	<Franciman>	not really to not being cargo cult of laziness?
14:36:31	<merijn>	lortabac: Some, ys
14:36:42	<Franciman>	laziness as the only truth?
14:37:16	<merijn>	Franciman: That Haskell wasn't the only lazy language
14:37:23	<Franciman>	lol
14:37:25	<Franciman>	ok
14:37:47	<merijn>	The Haskell committee was explicitly formed to unify efforts in several lazy languages
14:37:57	<Franciman>	btw, I think that we could benefit from some easy tutorials on the internal STG machine
14:38:00	<merijn>	The first Haskell compiler was implemented in Lazy ML
14:38:10	<merijn>	So, obviously Haskell wasn't the first lazy language
14:38:13	<Franciman>	so that people get more sense of how laziness works
14:38:13	<dminuoso>	How can I easily share a bunch of common dependencies at preset verious in multiple components in a cabal file?
14:38:17	<Franciman>	instead of pretending haskell is magic
14:38:21	<merijn>	dminuoso: common block
14:38:39	<lortabac>	merijn: do you know another sane IO mechanism before monads?
14:38:40	<Franciman>	do we have, as a community good tutorials on STG machine?
14:38:40	<merijn>	dminuoso: https://github.com/merijn/Belewitte/blob/master/benchmark-analysis/benchmark-analysis.cabal#L34-L62
14:38:51	<merijn>	lortabac: Uniqueness types
14:38:53	<merijn>	lortabac: See Clean
14:38:56	<dminuoso>	merijn: Spot on, thanks!
14:39:10	<merijn>	dminuoso: You can even import multiple common blocks into one component to compose them
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14:39:41	<maerwald>	Franciman: I hate having to know internals of the compiler to understand how a language works (and behaves, operationally). The more important compiler knowledge becomes, the more broken I consider the language.
14:40:03	<maerwald>	which means C++ is utterly broken
14:40:05	<Franciman>	eh but then how do you understand haskell's computational model?
14:40:08	<Franciman>	if you want to optimize
14:40:21	<Franciman>	laziness is hard because you can't reason about it
14:40:23	<Franciman>	easily
14:43:12	<Franciman>	laziness requires graphs
14:43:17	<Franciman>	strictness is about trees
14:43:33	<Franciman>	I personally work better on trees, but just because I am more used to them
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14:43:53	<Franciman>	if you teach me how laziness computationally behaves, I think I can understand haskell's computational model better
14:44:01	<Franciman>	and fix laziness bugs earlier
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14:45:24	<Franciman>	imho laziness is the best default when you are coding on paper and don't expect your code to run anywhere
14:45:40	<Franciman>	otherwise you also need to, some extent, understand the computational model of the machine
14:45:58	<Franciman>	hence, if you are so fond of retaining laziness, you need a way to understand how the code runs
14:46:20	<maerwald>	Franciman: that's a moving target
14:46:40	<maerwald>	inlining behavior etc changes a LOT between GHC versions
14:48:23	<Franciman>	then we are doomed
14:48:25	<Franciman>	whant can I say
14:48:28	<Franciman>	what*
14:48:34	<Franciman>	I thought haskell standard gave a semantics
14:48:42	<Franciman>	I understand that ghc can have its quircks
14:48:50	<Franciman>	but if they compose the 98% of the semantics of haskell
14:48:52	<Franciman>	we are doomed
14:48:56	<Franciman>	you can't reason about anything
14:49:35	<dminuoso>	You need to understand how the code runs irrspective of the language if you want performing code. And the reality is, you're going to be sad if you write code with the assumption of an implementation.
14:49:53	<dminuoso>	v8 made a major reengineering, which caused a massive performance degradation of thousands of JS packages
14:50:06	<lortabac>	I found this tool very interesting for GHC, I haven't tried it yet though: https://youtu.be/I4lnCG18TaY
14:54:32	<Franciman>	dminuoso: ok, but I don't have a freaking clue about what happens in my code
14:54:40	<Franciman>	I can only use a very abstract substitution based semantics
14:54:42	<Franciman>	to understand what happens
14:54:53	<Franciman>	it's hard to understand laziness
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14:55:01	<Franciman>	that's why I said, probably we need to know better how ghc works
14:55:14	<Franciman>	if the behaviour of haskell changes 98% at every ghc version
14:55:17	<Franciman>	then that's a problem
14:55:36	<Franciman>	but if there is a core semantics, that mostly gets you an idea, that's a better approximation of saying
14:55:37	<maerwald>	performance properties, not behaviour
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14:55:39	<Franciman>	uhm laziness magic!
14:56:04	<Franciman>	if we want the cargo cult of laziness as the ultimate magic you don't have to think about
14:56:06	<Franciman>	then ok
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14:56:24	<Franciman>	but in practice i found myself wanting to understand what was going on
14:57:35	<Franciman>	imagine C++ with default lazy semantics
14:57:43	<Franciman>	that would be a nightmare
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14:58:30	<Lycurgus>	that's just like ur opinion man
14:59:36	<Lycurgus>	also a lot of people here think c/c++ are a nightmare regardless
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15:00:09	<Franciman>	now imagine mutable state + laziness
15:00:20	<Franciman>	+ c++ quirks
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15:01:26	<Lycurgus>	a minority prolly recognize it as the defacto universal machine lang of this time
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15:04:01	<Lycurgus>	ghc changing 98% even at every leading number change prolly wouldn work and i'm reasonably confident isn't in fact the case
15:04:42	<Lycurgus>	although it's rate of mutation is different than other comparable langs
15:05:21	<Lycurgus>	that would be like a complete rewrite on every major release
15:05:56	<Lycurgus>	98% of something out the end of the thing maybe
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15:08:44	<Lycurgus>	*its rate
15:11:06	<Franciman>	Lycurgus: what I mean is probably best expressed by this meme
15:11:20	<Franciman>	this channel: laziness is godsent and is incredibly awesome for reasoning about code
15:11:26	<Franciman>	real world: screams in all directions
15:11:34	<Franciman>	so I suggested
15:11:39	<Franciman>	well I don't usggest
15:11:49	<Lycurgus>	turning it off?
15:11:57	<Franciman>	I suppose that if one learns a bit more about the internals of how laziness is used
15:12:02	<Franciman>	and executed
15:12:05	<Franciman>	i.e. the STG machine
15:12:09	<Franciman>	the screams get reduced
15:13:41	<Lycurgus>	telling a lisp audience that laziness sucks is like telling romance lang speakers their lang is effeminate or germans theirs is brutish
15:13:51	<Lycurgus>	*haskell audience
15:14:42	<Franciman>	I am not saying it sucks
15:14:44	<Franciman>	holy hell
15:15:18	<lortabac>	Lycurgus: they can say anything they want about my language, it's not me who invented it, I'm just a user :P
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15:15:39	<lortabac>	(I mean natural language)
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15:15:53	<Franciman>	Lycurgus: I just said, maybe problems with laziness can be more easy to solve if we all learn about STG machine
15:15:57	<Lycurgus>	it's all perspective, a boon in the right mindset
15:16:16	<geekosaur>	not sure "the STG machine" is the right target here, either. STG is a way to efficiently do graph reduction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_reduction may be more helpful
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15:16:38	<Franciman>	I also said that I don't like the dychotomy `default laziness is of course better than strictness by default'
15:16:43	<Franciman>	because you have other solutions
15:16:52	<geekosaur>	that is, if you look for the details on STG you will find a lot of stuff on implementing it on hardware
15:17:12	<geekosaur>	because STG is about doing graph reduction on real hardware
15:17:14	<Lycurgus>	i don't wanna know about STG machine, just wanna be able to turn it off if it causes a problem I don't have time to fix right now
15:18:34	<Lycurgus>	in general I don't wanna know about anything internal any deeper than TH
15:18:51	<geekosaur>	and there is -XStrictData for that
15:19:03	<Franciman>	how often do you use it?
15:19:11	<Franciman>	rarely?
15:19:20	<Lycurgus>	i think people use it all the time
15:19:25	<geekosaur>	(-XStrict generally goes too far, you'd have to replace the Prelude and nobody has written a strict Prelude replacement yet)
15:20:05	<maerwald>	XStrict is also odd, I think it also depends on how you write down your functions
15:20:09	<Franciman>	it's been shown by maerwald that -XStrict can become dodgy
15:20:14	<Franciman>	oh well
15:20:33	<maerwald>	afair `foo x = id x` is not the same as `foo = id` under XStrict
15:20:51	<merijn>	Lycurgus: I'm pretty confident that the people using StrictData are the vast minority on hackage
15:21:10	<Lycurgus>	merijn, ack
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15:21:30	<lortabac>	merijn: I have worked in 3 different teams, and all of them had StrictData enabled at project-level
15:22:44	<geekosaur>	#ghc also strongly suggests that -XStrictData is pretty common in larger environments
15:22:59	<lortabac>	it's recommended by some popular blog post
15:23:00	<Hecate>	yeah, we do so in my team as well
15:23:02	<Hecate>	hi lortabac o/ :)
15:23:15	<lortabac>	Hecate: hello :)
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15:23:31	<merijn>	lortabac: There's lots of popular blog posts that aren't necessarily, correct, though :p
15:23:47	<merijn>	tbh, StrictData project wide seems like a "Go-lang" solution
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15:25:02	<merijn>	In the "we can't be arsed or don't trust our juniors to be trained adequately to think about what they're doing, so we just settle for a predictable/plannable form of mediocre"-sense
15:25:16	<merijn>	There's certainly a business argument for that
15:26:12	<maerwald>	nonsense... the cases where you really need lazy data constructors isn't hard to figure out
15:26:15	<merijn>	But I don't like it
15:26:56	<Franciman>	good
15:27:16	<maerwald>	StrictData isn't enabled to make juniors more comfortable
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15:28:57	<maerwald>	it's also enabled in network packages like warp... and Kazu isn't a junior
15:29:37	<maerwald>	https://github.com/yesodweb/wai/pull/752#issuecomment-501531386
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15:55:12	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	we use -XStrict and -XStrictData in my work codebase
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15:56:55	<vaibhavsagar[m]>	it's comforting to know other people do it too
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15:58:36	<Hecate>	:)
15:59:43	<Hecate>	< merijn> tbh, StrictData project wide seems like a "Go-lang" solution // These are strong words from someone who doesn't do it :P
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16:00:08	<merijn>	Hecate: How so?
16:02:17	<Hecate>	well, instead of being interested by the phenomenon and asking people who actually do it at work all day long, you go for statements like "Go-lang solution", "plannable form of mediocre", "we can't be arsed or don't trust our juniors"
16:02:40	<Hecate>	and the only valid argument that you allow is a business one even though you say that you dislike it
16:03:21	<Hecate>	Would you allow a valid technical argument for StrictData or shall I give the email of my senior colleagues so you can insult them directly? :)
16:04:37	<hippoid>	yeah, give us the emails
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16:05:10	<merijn>	Hecate: I prefer to only insult vague unspecified groups of people who disagree with me, because that makes it easier to have plausible deniability of my opinion of any actual specific person :p
16:05:21	<Hecate>	hahahaha
16:05:39	<merijn>	Because it turns out insulting individuals makes it really hard to work with them, even if you're right >.>
16:05:56	<Hecate>	no fucking shit
16:05:59	<Hecate>	:p
16:07:02	<merijn>	Hecate: In general, the technical arguments I've seen so far don't convince me. Now, maybe I've only seen terrible technical arguments (not unlikely). I could be convinced with proper empirical science, but let's be real the state of "proper" empirical science when it comes to things as "programming language usage" is so abysmal it might as well not exist
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16:10:02	<merijn>	Besides, I don't expect anyone who likes StrictData to care about my opinion on it
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16:12:17	<merijn>	Hecate: The main technical arguments I've seen presented in favour of it have been, essentially, "I hate having to think whether this data should be strict". Which I just haven't found to be such a huge issue, so I'm curious what the technical argument of your colleagues is if it isn't that
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16:18:58	<Hecate>	merijn: because we have 150k LOC in our project and 8 years of production experience that tell us that it is the best course of action
16:18:59	<sclv>	i don't think there's technical arguments because in both cases you have control over strictness, and the only question is what the better default is
16:19:09	<Hecate>	^ +1
16:21:29	<merijn>	sclv: Right, which given my previous defense of laziness means I dislike StrictData
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16:22:19	<sclv>	in my experience, it depends on what data structures you're defining. for our autogenerated Big Records that match up to other stuff going over the wire, strict by default is right
16:22:33	<sclv>	for our embedded ASTs, strict by default is wrong
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16:22:48	<merijn>	Basically, there seems to have been a big influx of people into Haskell that seem like what they really want is SML. And it's kinda weird that they then keep complaining about Haskell all the time, instead of just, like, writing SML or Ocaml?
16:23:09	<sclv>	(i should add: strict and unpacked for those records!)
16:23:12	<merijn>	Like, it's fine to not like laziness
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16:23:31	<merijn>	But why you gotta keep complaining about it in Haskell discussions?
16:24:18	<merijn>	Ask Lennart for the mail addresses of SBC lawyers and complain at them to open source Mu instead or something >.>
16:24:25	<sclv>	i don't find strict data helps much with thunk leaks -- that's about writing code carefully. i do find it helps when pared with unpacking for controlling memory usage in certain specialized situations
16:24:36	<merijn>	Maybe legal will agree if they get annoyed too much
16:26:05	<merijn>	sclv: I mean, the big record case also seems fairly obvious, so I fail to see how "project wide StrictData" improves that situation.
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16:26:44	<sclv>	not projectwide -- modulewide. easier to stick a pragma on top than clutter each field quite as much
16:26:55	<merijn>	The weirdest thing to me is people arguing "oh, but I can still make things lazy!". Ok, but then you still gotta think about what you're doing and then there's literally no benefit from StrictData except maybe "less annotations if you've got a lot of strictness"
16:27:02	<merijn>	sclv: Right, but nobody ever argues that
16:27:16	<sclv>	i do :-P
16:27:17	<merijn>	sclv: See in the previous discussion everyone talking about enabling it project wide
16:28:24	<merijn>	All the pro-StrictData discourse presents it as a magical bullet that solves all your laziness problems. Which just strikes as a weird ass position to take
16:28:36	<maerwald>	no one said that
16:28:59	<merijn>	maerwald: Lots of people say that on Twitter/issue trackers/what not
16:29:02	<sclv>	i do agree that there's been some overhype of it
16:29:04	<c_wraith>	every time I say "I write code that uses laziness and I would appreciate it if you didn't break it" I get told I'm doing it wrong
16:29:14	<sclv>	there's a time and place for it, and we learned it wasn't as magic as we thought
16:29:32	<sclv>	like there was an experimental "strict everything" pragma too iirc and it just turned out... not that helpful
16:29:48	<c_wraith>	yeah, so that crowd is going to be all-in on UnliftedDataTypes soon
16:29:55	<c_wraith>	only making things worse
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16:30:48	<sclv>	i mean performance is really 90% "find the tight inner loop" and 10% "do terrible things to that inner loop alone"
16:30:50	<EvanR>	nothing makes laziness more confusing than unexpected strictness xD
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16:31:23	<merijn>	anyway
16:31:34	<merijn>	I gotta go dancing instead of arguing why people are wrong on the internet
16:31:49	<maerwald>	EvanR: yeah, like the `tar` package abusing lazy bytestring in ways that forces the entire file contents into memory
16:31:55	<merijn>	Before everything gets locked down again until, like, 2024 or something >.>
16:32:25	<maralorn>	I can contribute that I have been bitten by thinking StrictData works that way. I have a huge record, which really should be strict. But most fields are Maybes and Sets and when I disabled StrictData I wasn‘t knowledgable enough to realize how little this helps me.
16:32:29	<int-e>	Why does the search term "thunk cost fallacy" produce hits that have nothing to do with laziness, sad :P
16:33:06	<lortabac>	:D
16:33:06	<sclv>	lmao
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16:33:46	<[exa]>	int-e: maybe there's no fallacy! :D
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16:35:08	<[exa]>	Hecate: sitting on 150kloc in haskell is one way to produce bias, honestly
16:35:21	<int-e>	[exa]: Tbf I'm not quite sure what that would be... but it could be a nice pun.
16:39:27	<int-e>	Maybe one should argue this way... Haskell is lazy by default... but that default can be changed with a pragma. So what that really means is that now there's another bit of information I need to track when reading code. :-/
16:39:46	<dsal>	I'm surprised again to not find an Alternative instance for Either. I feel like that surprises me a lot.
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16:40:09	<geekosaur>	I feel like that's expected after Error went away?
16:40:59	<dsal>	I continue to not expect it. :)
16:41:05	<[exa]>	dsal: you may want Validation
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16:41:21	<lortabac>	dsal: what would 'empty' be for Either a?
16:41:40	<lortabac>	anyway, there is Alt in semigroupoids
16:41:47	<dsal>	Oh, I remember Alt.
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16:43:30	<int-e>	dsal: I guess this happens because there are several equally plausible instances.
16:44:00	<dsal>	Yeah, I assume that's the case. It should just default to whatever I'm thinking is a good idea at the moment.
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16:44:49	<c_wraith>	that'd be the worst. someone else looks at your code and your already-compiled program changes behavior.
16:44:50	<int-e>	dsal: So, it should roll a die at compile time and synthesize one of the instances accordingly?
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16:45:23	<dsal>	I'm back into arguing that deeply nesting case statements isn't a good idea. Alt makes a lot of sense for this type of use case.
16:45:25	<int-e>	(we need more random compiler errors (cf. INTERCAL))
16:46:14	<monochrom>	I support enforcing UB by runtime randomization too >:)
16:46:14	<int-e>	dsal: maybe whoever you're arguing with isn't worth arguing with
16:47:06	<dsal>	At least it's a softer argument: "I really don't see the issue with code going to the right"
16:47:21	<dsal>	The last time it was that test code doesn't have to look like production code. Now it's actually production code. :/
16:47:32	<monochrom>	haha
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16:47:51	<int-e>	. o O ( 32:9 monitors for all programmers now! )
16:47:59	<c_wraith>	I agree that you should keep nested cases to less than 10 levels of nesting
16:48:13	<int-e>	(this ultra-wide monitor trend is weird)
16:48:15	<monochrom>	I think 32:9 is already realized as "dual head"
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16:48:30	<int-e>	monochrom: you can now get it as a single monitor
16:48:33	<[exa]>	dsal: what's wrong with just putting First in Validation tho? :D
16:48:41	<monochrom>	Yikes.
16:48:44	<dsal>	It's also ormolu, so each line only has like one word and there's two space indentation.
16:49:07	<c_wraith>	Ormolu is its own set of bad choices...
16:49:30	<monochrom>	ormolu helps you make your code look like Sheet Music Boss youtube videos >:)
16:53:16	<monochrom>	Back in the good old days, I heard this probably wise thought: If you compose a face from the most beautiful eyes, the most beautiful nose, the most beautiful mouth, ... the face can be the most ugly.
16:53:32	<Hecate>	int-e: +1 for "thunk cost fallacy", love it
16:54:03	<monochrom>	Then, around the turn of the century, someone actually did that for programming practices, called it "extreme programming".
16:54:10	<Hecate>	[exa]: well, it's not my first Haskell rodeo, and we have people working on the performance of our monolith, it's not something that came yesterday :P
16:54:14	<monochrom>	perhaps s/for/to/
16:54:36	<monochrom>	And now, someone does that to code layout, calls it "ormulu".
16:54:50	<dsal>	What is "thunk cost fallacy?"
16:55:04	<EvanR>	a play on words
16:55:12	<dsal>	Sure, but I mean what's the context?
16:55:34	<dsal>	There's a lot of cargo culting around strict fields in areas like the one thing we look at the one time at startup before copying it to something else.
16:55:36	<monochrom>	unexpected laziness and unexpected strictness
16:56:21	<monochrom>	and presuming that laziness hurts, strictness helps, blindly unconditionally
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16:56:37	<dsal>	Also: That it matters at all, which is the thing I keep running into.
16:56:46	<monochrom>	Yeah, that too.
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16:57:03	<monochrom>	premature optimization again
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16:57:54	<davean>	Its not even an optimization
16:57:58	<dsal>	Why are all these types boxed? Unboxed is even more strict!
16:58:35	<EvanR>	unboxed linked list when
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16:59:04	<monochrom>	Why is the unboxing day called the boxing day? >:)
16:59:39	<EvanR>	the phenomenon of unboxing needs a less negative word
16:59:54	<EvanR>	not sure what
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17:01:00	<c_wraith>	boxing day is usually the day after unboxing day. Not that I know why
17:01:07	<c_wraith>	that seems to violate causality
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17:18:50	<int-e>	dsal: I'm not sure yet... but something like the idea that thunks are expensive and therefore you should avoid them all by making everything strict.
17:19:25	<dsal>	That's what it sounded like. I think it'd be a great blog post with the three main case: True, False, Stop wasting your time.
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17:32:16	<EvanR>	True, False, FileNotFound
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17:54:56	<nf>	int-e: how do i allow my own instance of lambdabot to import Control.Lens? should i add lens to trustedPackages? is that safe?
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17:56:57	<int-e>	nf: Yes you need to trust lens to allow that. Is it safe? I don't know. Last I checked it looked like the worst thing it does is open access to `coerce`. But its huge and it's easy to miss something.
17:58:38	<dsal>	lens is bad because you can magnify things and start fires.
17:58:43	<int-e>	(Data.Coerce is unsafe... and indeed it was initially riddled with various type checking problems that allowed people to write `unsafeCoerce`. But I think they've been addressed.
17:58:50	<int-e>	)
17:58:58	<dsal>	Data.Coerce is unsafe?
17:59:00	<int-e>	sorry, "is unsafe" meaning it's declared as unsafe.
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17:59:21	<nf>	by safety i really mean unability to run arbitrary IO
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17:59:37	<nf>	that shouldn't be a problem, right?
17:59:57	<int-e>	https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/libraries/base/Data/Coerce.hs#L1
18:00:19	<dsal>	Lame
18:00:20	<int-e>	nf: It should, yes.
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18:02:56	<nf>	hm, i'm still getting "Control.Lens: Can't be safely imported! The module itself isn't safe."
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18:03:26	<int-e>	you need to trust some of lens's dependencies too; profunctors in particular.
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18:04:12	<int-e>	wait
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18:04:48	<int-e>	That actually sounds like safety support in Lens may have bitrotted a bit.
18:05:08	<nf>	still not
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18:06:48	<int-e>	(this lambdabot is on lens-4.19.2, I have not tried lens-5.x)
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18:08:37	<int-e>	anyway, I usually try these things out with ghci -XSafe (invoking mueval directly is also an option, but lambdabot's truncated error messages aren't helpful for tracking these things down)
18:09:51	<nf>	how can i know which module is causing the unsafeness with ghci?
18:09:59	<int-e>	huh, actually 4.19.2 seems to require a patch too: https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/blob/libera/patches/lens-4.19.2.patch
18:11:20	<nf>	:/
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18:11:52	<int-e>	nf: well it alrady told you that Control.Lens isn't safe. Since Control.Lens isn't marked as Trustworthy, that is an inferred property. So you can import the modules it depends on to narrow things down.
18:12:17	<nf>	i see
18:12:27	<int-e>	It's no fun... there's no tooling (beyond ghci) around SafeHaskell as far as I know.
18:12:45	<nf>	disclaimer i have no idea what Trustworthy or even Safe mean
18:13:37	<int-e>	"Trustworthy" is how you override the inferred unsafety of a module: if the user trusts the package that contains a Trustworthy module, then that module can be imported from Safe modules.
18:14:37	<int-e>	So... "inferred safe" basically means that all imports are Safe or trusted and Trustworthy.
18:14:57	<nf>	ok
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18:17:01	<int-e>	nf: Huh, apparently profunctors doesn't need to be trusted anymore. https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/blob/libera/lambdabot/scripts/online/run.sh#L4-L15 is what lambdabot uses (with lens-4.19.2 plus the above patch)
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18:19:04	<nf>	thanks
18:20:39	<nf>	so apparently Control.Lens.Equality imports GHC.Exts which is unsafe
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18:21:26	<nf>	right, this is what your patch is about
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18:21:46	<nf>	should that patch be upstreamed maybe?
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18:22:16	<int-e>	undoubtedly
18:22:25	<int-e>	I'd do it to if I wasn't so great at procrastination
18:22:27	<nf>	oh https://github.com/ekmett/lens/blob/master/src/Control/Lens/Equality.hs#L7
18:22:42	<nf>	you did it 2 years ago lmao
18:22:47	<int-e>	Ah.
18:22:57	<nf>	more like precrastination
18:23:13	<int-e>	well, one year ago
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18:23:40	<int-e>	Let's meet in the middle, 1 1/2.
18:23:47	<nf>	right
18:24:03	<nf>	anyway, that's in v5 and i just realised i'm also on 4.19.2
18:24:25	<nf>	i think i will figure this out now
18:24:27	<nf>	thanks for your help
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18:34:25	<nf>	it works with 5.0.1 :)
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18:52:51	<dsal>	Does `T {..}` look better than `T{..}` to people? That space always looks weird to me.
18:53:42	<nf>	definitely looks better
18:54:09	<EvanR>	T <backspace> { double strike would save space and still be recognizable xD
18:55:37	<geekosaur>	narrow space? :þ
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19:04:05	<dsal>	nf: space looks better you say?
19:04:24	<dsal>	It's not the space savings, it's' just that it ends up looking like a distinct argument.
19:05:01	<EvanR>	T {..} looks like application, T{..} looks like an atomic piece of syntax
19:05:03	<dsal>	So my brain has to compensate and think "no wait, this is part of the previous argument, it's just got a space in the middle for some reason"
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19:06:22	<monochrom>	"T {..}" has the benefit of being consistent with "Just 5".
19:06:49	<monochrom>	"T{..}" has the benefit of following the Python style guide that you don't need a space here.
19:06:57	<dsal>	But you can't write `f Just 5 = ...`
19:08:24	<EvanR>	record syntax shouldn't be confused for application
19:08:51	<EvanR>	it's hard enough to get people on board with f x xD
19:09:07	<monochrom>	That is orthogonal to coding style, IMO.
19:09:10	<int-e>	nf: good to know ("works with 5.0.1")
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19:10:00	<dsal>	It doesn't really matter, as ormolu's gonna ormolu. I'm just surprised that it looks clear to people.
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19:10:43	<dsal>	Speaking of things that look clear to people, inline per-character color coded diffs of expected vs. got output are hilarious.
19:15:57	<tomsmeding>	% import Control.Concurrent
19:15:57	<yahb>	tomsmeding:
19:15:59	<tomsmeding>	% forkIO (putStrLn "hello") >> forkIO (putStrLn "goodbye")
19:15:59	<yahb>	tomsmeding: ThhgreoeloalddobI; yde ; 95
19:16:05	<tomsmeding>	dsal: does it look like that?
19:16:12	<dsal>	Yes, but in color!
19:16:26	<dsal>	I can kind of read it when I try hard.
19:16:34	<tomsmeding>	beautiful
19:16:45	<dsal>	It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.
19:16:55	<tomsmeding>	maybe there's a reason then
19:17:09	dsal	wages war on Christmas
19:17:30	<tomsmeding>	with ghc?
19:18:09	<dsal>	This is someone's test framework thing.
19:18:23	<dsal>	But I do have a ghc problem. The line editing stuff is completely wrecked.
19:18:32	<dsal>	Has anyone heard of completely wrecked line editing stuff in ghc?
19:19:09	<dsal>	er ghci
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19:19:41	<tomsmeding>	I've had it before, and I vaguely recall it having to do with changing the window size and then editing a multiline command
19:19:54	<xerox>	dsal: what os and versuon
19:20:14	<geekosaur>	there was also a report of it being broken in 9.0.1 on arm, iirc
19:20:15	<xerox>	that's what I get for trying to type with gloves on
19:20:36	<geekosaur>	which is probably what xerox is asking about :þ
19:20:44	<dsal>	Yeah, it's that one.
19:20:47	<xerox>	yep! that one has been solved! :-)
19:21:00	<xerox>	an ffi mismatch with made wrong ioctls
19:21:02	<dsal>	Oh cool. Actually, this one is 8.10.7
19:21:29	<xerox>	if you want a workaround you can do "TERM=dumb ghci"
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19:21:45	<xerox>	till you get a fixed version
19:21:54	<dsal>	I don't want dumb ghci :(
19:22:05	<dsal>	dsmac:tesla dustin$ TERM=dumb stack ghci
19:22:05	<dsal>	Segmentation fault: 11
19:22:08	<dsal>	Oh good, I don't get one.
19:22:14	<xerox>	ooops
19:22:30	<dsal>	It almost works.
19:22:31	<tomsmeding>	terminal is too smart for you, rejects being made dumb
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19:23:42	<xerox>	I ended up compiling a fixed ghc and that was that
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19:26:59	<monochrom>	perhaps TERM=vt100 works a bit better
19:27:52	<awpr>	I've had broken line editing in ghci resulting from using color sequences without the appropriate width annotations
19:28:05	<geekosaur>	still runs into the terminal ioctls being wrong
19:28:12	<monochrom>	Ah OK.
19:28:20	<awpr>	does it go horribly wrong when line-wrapping a long line, and put the cursor in the wrong place?
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19:28:28	<geekosaur>	this is an FFI issue, the only way TERM helps is TERM=dumb prevents them from being used at all
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19:33:49	<dsal>	mine goes horribly wrong whenever I edit anything. Trying to insert characters just mangles everything.
19:34:44	<xerox>	do you have haskeline customizations?
19:35:07	<awpr>	ok, probably a different issue then. here's a reference for the ANSI escape sequence issue I had, though: https://github.com/judah/haskeline/wiki/ControlSequencesInPrompt
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19:49:02	<dsal>	xerox: I don't think I have anything fancy. This is the only thing that's kind of broken when I switch to the native build.
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20:39:26	<reumeth>	I'm new to Haskell trying to make a function Aeson.Value -> Aeson.Value that fuzzes JSON values. I managed to create a deterministic function of that type, but I really want the function to replace all strings with random string/int (kind of like the strings/ints QuickCheck generates)
20:40:27	<reumeth>	Since I want some randomness it feels like I have to do this in IO or something? Or at least seed some generator and send it as an argument to my function?
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20:41:28	<geekosaur>	the ideal way to use randomness is indeed you seed it in IO and pass the generator around
20:42:11	<geekosaur>	System.Random has a number of functions that will help you do this, and you can pick a number of RNG backends
20:42:21	<reumeth>	Is there a way to reuse the strings/ints Quickcheck generates?
20:42:25	<geekosaur>	("random" package)
20:42:46	<reumeth>	geekosaur: That will only fix my random integer problem though, right?
20:43:02	<geekosaur>	you can use `arbitrary` but you'll pull in QuickCheck and its dependencies and you might find that a little heavy just for `arbitrary`
20:43:15	<geekosaur>	there are ways to generate random strings and such as well
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20:43:50	<geekosaur>	(every so often one wishes `arbitrary` were available separately from QC for things like this)
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20:44:04	<reumeth>	geekosaur: For me that will be fine. I like the fact that QuickCheck has lots of different generator like (valid utf8 strings, random bytestrings etc)
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20:44:45	<reumeth>	I'm just struggling to see where/how I can use the arbitrary from QC
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20:47:13	<reumeth>	Right now my fuzz function is stupid and is of the form: fuzz (Array x) = map fuzz x; fuzz (Number x) = Number (x + 1) etc.
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20:47:57	<reumeth>	I'm pretty sure I can't just add QC.arbitrary stuff inside here, at least the signature of fuzz will have to change, right?
20:48:45	<geekosaur>	yes
20:49:06	<geekosaur>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/QuickCheck-2.14.2/docs/Test-QuickCheck-Gen.html#t:Gen
20:49:29	<geekosaur>	it's a monad, so your signature becomes Aeson.Value -> Gen Aeson.Value
20:49:47	<HuGoDrOcHa>	?
20:50:09	<geekosaur>	…yes?
20:50:18	<HuGoDrOcHa>	yes
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20:50:51	<reumeth>	geekosaur: Hm, ok I'll try to see if I can get any further. Thanks
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21:31:03	<jle`>	anyone familiar with the Cabal library? is there any -> IO PackageDescription function to get the description of the current project?
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21:32:45	<jle`>	hm i guess i could use Distribution.Parsec (maybe?) but i'd still need to get the cabal file name
21:33:34	<sclv>	jle`: yeah given a file there's easy functions to read the package description
21:33:58	<jle`>	hm, is there a way to get the name of the current project? is that what that Paths_ module is for?
21:34:02	<sclv>	but not sure what the easy function is to pick the "right" filename
21:34:47	<maerwald>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Cabal-3.6.2.0/docs/Distribution-PackageDescription-Parsec.html#v:parseGenericPackageDescriptionMaybe
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21:36:21	<jle`>	whoa there's both a Distribution.PackageDescription and a Description.Types.PackageDescription, thanks for the tip
21:36:52	<jle`>	hm, is the ByteString option here the contents of the file?
21:36:57	<jle`>	s/option/argument
21:36:57	<sclv>	yes
21:37:27	<jle`>	ah, thanks
21:37:33	<jle`>	hm i guess i just have to find a way to get the project name then
21:37:43	<jle`>	or i guess i could glob for *.cabal
21:38:44	<maerwald>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/filepattern
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21:41:38	<jle`>	ooh thanks :)
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21:43:15	<jle`>	and then i can use it with getDatadir
21:43:17	<sclv>	the cabal logic as i understand it is it just looks for a unique file and throws if there's more than one and none is explicitly specified
21:44:51	<jle`>	yeah, i meant i can use it to get the directory to search in
21:45:04	<sclv>	jle`: ooh, found it! https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Cabal-3.6.2.0/docs/Distribution-Simple-Utils.html#v:defaultPackageDesc
21:45:34	<jle`>	:O
21:45:51	<jle`>	sweet, thanks a bunch
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21:55:56	<[itchyjunk]>	Hi, wondering if this makes sense `if fst(divMod n 10) == 0 then snd(divMod n 10) else snd(divMod n 10)`
21:56:38	<[itchyjunk]>	i know logically its not brushed up yet, just syntactically
21:57:14	<dsal>	That's weird in several ways.
21:57:29	<dsal>	The lack of space between the function and the parameter is super weird, let me get past that one.
21:57:40	<dsal>	But then like, why are you using divMod if you just want div or mod?
21:58:13	<[itchyjunk]>	i want to do mod based on the value of div but i haven't sorted that out in my head yet
21:58:46	<dsal>	> let f n = let (d,m) = divMod n 10 in if d == 0 then m else m in f 11
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21:58:47	<lambdabot>	1
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22:01:25	<monochrom>	Saying "divMod n 10 Beetlejuice" 3 times in a row is a serious violation of DRY. In any language.
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22:02:21	<maerwald>	people still follow DRY? :p
22:02:36	<dsal>	I get into arguments about repetition a lot. I kind of get them, but the arguments are often readability vs. building a new (local) abstraction that makes it clear that it's actually the same thing three times and not some typos or something.
22:02:47	<dsal>	I slow down a lot more when I see what looks like a copy and paste.
22:02:52	<maerwald>	I always start with repetition.
22:03:02	<monochrom>	You know, I have long realized that if a desirable principle has a name, it means people are refusing to do it. >:)
22:03:11	<maerwald>	and then after a while, an abstraction will show itself (or it doesn't)
22:03:23	<monochrom>	Yes I'm OK with that.
22:03:27	<dsal>	Oh sure. There's nothing wrong with repeating yourself until you realize that copying and pasting the same thing a bunch might be a pain.
22:03:38	<monochrom>	But this one is way too basic.
22:04:04	<dsal>	The one I just looked at was just three copies of some code and a review comment about adding a comment as to when we should add new ones. I'm like, "Hey, can we just make this a list?"
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22:04:36	<monochrom>	There are very obvious, staring at your face repetitions that even 1st-year students can easily recognize.
22:04:50	<dsal>	One of the bits of code that was copied and pasted a lot (because that's good for tests!) needed to be updated for a change I made this morning and I figured out that the original one that got copied a lot also had a bug.
22:05:34	<maerwald>	I've long ceased to be that invested in stuff when being paid for coding
22:05:39	<monochrom>	What you're referring to are less obvious cases that really takes experience to see, and even then you can argue about pros and cons.
22:05:40	<dsal>	haha
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22:06:54	<dsal>	monochrom: that's kind of the approach I'm taking. I'll probably catch flak for even spending time on this, but let me write up a big thing describing why copying and pasting this is bad and various benefits of putting stuff in a list instead of unrolling the loop in a big do block.
22:07:15	<maerwald>	monochrom: many coders I've seen start thinking about the abstraction too early... when they should really just copy paste. And that leads to really shitty abstractions
22:07:32	<dsal>	Yeah, I've definitely been in those code bases as well.
22:07:57	<dsal>	that's part of the reason there's knee-jerk in the opposite direction here. Previous Prelude was insanely large. No idea where anything came from and all kinds of weird stuff happening.
22:08:22	<monochrom>	That is caused by OOP education. Or at least bad OOP education. (Perhaps there is good OOP education too.)
22:08:36	<dsal>	That's why I qualified (local) abstraction. They love naming various values with extremely long names and stuff. But then strategies just get copied and pasted.
22:09:11	<[itchyjunk]>	Every second I confuse myself more.
22:09:22	<dsal>	[itchyjunk]: It's called "learning"
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22:09:27	<[itchyjunk]>	lol
22:09:33	<[itchyjunk]>	In that case, great!
22:09:46	<monochrom>	1st-year OOP courses, the bad ones, tend to start with "What's wrong with this struct? Person = { String name; int age; }"
22:09:51	<maerwald>	Code is so unpredictable... you think up something in your head and when you try it, it turns out totally different, because of a bazillion reasons (unexpected API, bugs, corner cases).
22:09:53	<monochrom>	Really, there is nothing wrong.
22:10:24	<maerwald>	the crap has to settle first
22:10:42	<dsal>	Yep, don't disagree.
22:10:45	<maerwald>	like a dough
22:10:47	<monochrom>	Then the party line reveals the model answer: "It is not hidden behind an interface. What if there are future changes? The right thing to do is getter methods."
22:11:15	<[itchyjunk]>	I have a function and it does a tiny step of what i want. i want to save each of the mini results in a list. i should have a small working function then stitch it so that this another function uses this function and puts the result in a list. then have a third function that uses this whole thing multiple times?
22:11:16	<monochrom>	That kind of brainwashing in 1st-year courses is why people have premature abstractions. "abstractions"
22:11:17	<dsal>	"What if there are future changes" is an argument both for and against abstractions, depending on who's proposing them. :)
22:11:48	<[itchyjunk]>	I am in a first year OOP course @_@
22:11:59	<maerwald>	dsal: write code that's easy to delete.
22:12:11	<dsal>	Yep, I love deleting code.
22:12:13	<monochrom>	Really, even if there are future changes, you don't even know which direction it will be in. The expression problem implies that if you enable one, you disable the other.
22:12:43	<maerwald>	yes, so better delete the previous code and start anew
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22:13:07	<maerwald>	but people still think that starting anew is too expensive
22:13:16	<maerwald>	it is if your code is hard to delete
22:13:18	<geekosaur>	sunk code fallacy?
22:13:35	<dsal>	I argue that fairly tall code with 8 levels of indentation in nested case blocks (with two space indentation) is kind of hard to follow and should be clearer. It's completely local, but like, I have to think too hard to follow it. Just give the structure a bit of name.
22:14:00	<monochrom>	However! DRY is still a good principle, and does not conflict with what I said. I am just against premature interfaces.
22:14:40	<maerwald>	monochrom: well, but dry doesn't focus on abstraction. Deduplication and abstraction is not the same
22:14:43	<dsal>	I got it down to a square of around 6 levels of indentation and 6-8 lines tall with the whole thing on a page so you can see it all at once.
22:15:17	<maerwald>	sometimes, when you see repetition, the abstraction is really somewhere else
22:15:50	<maerwald>	but because we're educated with DRY, we focus on removing the repetition
22:20:47	<[itchyjunk]>	if i have a function returning r and i do (r):[], is this list created locally within that context and lost later on?
22:21:05	<[itchyjunk]>	i.e should i be `let myList = []` and using myList to hold the returns?
22:21:32	<monochrom>	myList will always be [].
22:21:52	<monochrom>	even s/be/stay as/
22:21:58	<monochrom>	For eternity!
22:22:08	<[itchyjunk]>	oh rigiht.. r:myList creates a new list with [r]
22:22:16	[itchyjunk]	recursively rips hair
22:22:17	<monochrom>	Yes.
22:24:05	<monochrom>	This is why in my course I open with "think 'function' as in math functions, not C functions; think algebra, not control flow".
22:24:30	<[itchyjunk]>	You teach haskell?
22:24:41	<jle`>	oh now i have to convert Cabal's Extension type to haskell-src-ext's extension type
22:24:47	jle`	. o ( read . show )
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22:25:08	<[itchyjunk]>	I thought i'd do a simple exercise to feel I have been productive. Instead i've put myself into a hole :D
22:25:30	<monochrom>	And don't worry, I don't really say that thinking C functions and control flow are wrong, I just say that you'll have a better time at the beginning if you think my way. After you're experienced, it doesn't matter then.
22:26:03	<monochrom>	Well, strictly speaking, I'm supposed to teach principles of programming languages. I end up doing more Haskell than I should.
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22:26:46	<[itchyjunk]>	I'm in a "Accelerated object oriented programming" class
22:26:49	<maerwald>	interesting, I always think in control flow, no matter the language
22:26:57	<[itchyjunk]>	we use java
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22:27:32	<monochrom>	And what does the unaccelerated one do?
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22:28:40	<dsal>	I learned Java after learning Eiffel (from Object Oriented Software Construction). Most of the important OO principles from eiffel are exactly the opposite of java best practices.
22:28:44	<[itchyjunk]>	the unaccelerated one is shorter course. this one is supposidly 3 fused into one. principle of programming, intro to OOP and intro to Java
22:28:54	<maerwald>	wow
22:29:04	<[itchyjunk]>	i just needed the principles class but they weren't offering one so i was thrown into this one :(
22:29:07	[itchyjunk]	is no programmer
22:29:22	<maerwald>	learning principles of programming through java? ok.
22:29:39	<[itchyjunk]>	I don't think my uni offers anything else to start off with
22:29:47	<[itchyjunk]>	ive heard there are graduate level FP classes
22:29:52	<maerwald>	well, you'll know what getters and setters are pretty soon
22:30:00	<[itchyjunk]>	I know those!
22:30:03	<maerwald>	and that's all you need to know for java
22:30:09	<[itchyjunk]>	lol
22:30:12	<monochrom>	haha
22:30:26	<monochrom>	I can't say there is nothing else to know.
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22:30:44	<monochrom>	But my students do behave like that's all they have learned. >:)
22:30:47	<dsal>	You also get to learn about building factories.
22:31:09	<dsal>	Anyone can construct a new object, but not just anyone can build a whole factory that constructs objects.
22:31:19	<[itchyjunk]>	if i do r:[] to create [r], how to i refrence to this [r] list ?
22:31:25	<[itchyjunk]>	its lost in memory somewhere?
22:31:26	<geekosaur>	and then FactoryFactory, etc.
22:31:35	<dsal>	[itchyjunk]: how do you want to reference it?
22:31:41	<dsal>	Also, [r] is a fine way to make [r]
22:31:46	<maerwald>	well, you can also learn about Java generics and then realize they're just difficult to understand implicit casts
22:31:49	<monochrom>	If I provide "data X = MkX Int X" on an assignment, many of my students code up "getInt :: X -> Int" and "getNext: X -> X" right away.
22:31:59	<[itchyjunk]>	i have a function doing things and i want to store the return values somewhere
22:32:07	<dsal>	monochrom: They don't start writing lenses?
22:32:15	<monochrom>	Nah.
22:32:28	<maerwald>	xD
22:32:31	<dsal>	[itchyjunk]: It's really best to start by thinking of what you want your functions to look like. Type signatures do most of the work for you when you let them.
22:32:36	<monochrom>	Heh
22:33:05	<maerwald>	store the return value? You could use a database
22:33:10	<maerwald>	start with beam
22:33:20	<monochrom>	No, use a file system... >:)
22:33:20	<geekosaur>	"store" isn't really a thing in Haskell. "pass" is
22:33:37	<maerwald>	file system is too easy.. you want to debug SQL errors when you start your application
22:33:40	<geekosaur>	think functions, not "variables"
22:34:16	<monochrom>	No no, you want to worry about file locking when you start your application...
22:34:27	<maerwald>	well, don't ship for windows
22:34:32	dsal	uses a software transactional filesystem
22:34:33	<geekosaur>	use sqlite, then you get to deal with both! }:>
22:34:44	<monochrom>	\∩/
22:34:50	<dsal>	Actually, that's true, I just use SQLite.
22:34:55	<dsal>	Except now I'm using Postgres.
22:35:06	<dsal>	Totally forgot how much I like postgres.
22:35:13	<maerwald>	such webscale
22:35:19	<monochrom>	The Pilgrim's Postgres.
22:35:47	<maerwald>	[itchyjunk]: was that helpful? :)
22:35:55	<monochrom>	The Pilsqlim's Postgres.
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22:36:03	<[itchyjunk]>	If i apply f to n, i get (a,b). i want b to go in a list. then apply f to a and get (c,d), then i want d in the same list and apply f to c ad nausium
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22:36:39	<dsal>	What are `n`, `a`, and `b`?
22:37:07	<monochrom>	Perhaps you can write a simple recursion for it.
22:37:14	<dsal>	That's kind of a strangely shaped thing. Are you writing unfoldr?
22:37:18	<dsal>	:t unfoldr
22:37:19	<lambdabot>	(b -> Maybe (a, b)) -> b -> [a]
22:37:19	<maerwald>	[itchyjunk]: the way you'd do that is that your "store" is an argument to your recursive function
22:37:22	<[itchyjunk]>	n is the input i give f, f maps n to (a,b)
22:37:27	<monochrom>	I can write it for you but I think it's within your reach.
22:37:31	<[itchyjunk]>	yes i need recursion but nothign is simple :D
22:37:35	<maerwald>	when your recursive function terminates, you return the "store"
22:37:46	<monochrom>	OK, beginner-level.
22:38:16	<dsal>	[itchyjunk]: Can you write the actual type signature? I'm not sure I understand `:: n -> (a,b)` -- those types have to come from somewhere.
22:38:22	<geekosaur>	what defines "terminates" here?
22:38:48	<maerwald>	crashes with an SQL error
22:38:54	<[itchyjunk]>	if the first value in the tuple is 0
22:39:00	<[itchyjunk]>	let me think of the signature
22:39:01	<dsal>	So it's an Int?
22:39:18	<[itchyjunk]>	yes n , a , b are ints
22:39:23	<dsal>	Ooh. that's very different
22:39:35	<dsal>	`:: Int -> (Int, Int)`
22:40:12	<monochrom>	But that's for f. And this f may be already given.
22:40:26	<[itchyjunk]>	thats what happens in each step but i want to get a [Int] after all is said an done
22:40:30	<monochrom>	In question is another function, call it g, that uses f again and again etc.
22:40:45	<[itchyjunk]>	okay, then i was kinda in the right track
22:41:02	<[itchyjunk]>	i have a function that applies this once that i have called helperf
22:41:22	<dsal>	Yeah, doing it just once is great. Then you can just keep calling it.
22:41:24	<dsal>	> let f n = (n + 1, n * 2) in iterate (f . snd) (1,1)
22:41:25	<lambdabot>	[(1,1),(2,2),(3,4),(5,8),(9,16),(17,32),(33,64),(65,128),(129,256),(257,512)...
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22:41:38	<dsal>	> let f n = (n + 1, n * 2) in snd <$> iterate (f . snd) (1,1)
22:41:39	<lambdabot>	[1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16384,32768,65536,131072,2...
22:41:52	<dsal>	That's a dumb function. I assume yours isn't. heh
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22:42:18	<monochrom>	Here is a hint. You probably haven't thought that you can do this:
22:42:20	<monochrom>	@src map
22:42:20	<lambdabot>	map _ [] = []
22:42:20	<lambdabot>	map f (x:xs) = f x : map f xs
22:42:37	<monochrom>	Sleep on that. You don't always need an "accumulator".
22:43:31	<dsal>	@src unfoldr
22:43:31	<lambdabot>	unfoldr f b = case f b of
22:43:31	<lambdabot>	Just (a, b') -> a : unfoldr f b'
22:43:31	<lambdabot>	Nothing -> []
22:43:38	<dsal>	ooh. I didn't think that'd work.
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22:44:44	<dsal>	@src iterate
22:44:44	<lambdabot>	iterate f x = x : iterate f (f x)
22:45:32	<dsal>	We should just teach fix and get rid of all this recursion stuff.
22:45:33	<dsal>	@src fix
22:45:34	<lambdabot>	fix f = let x = f x in x
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22:49:48	<monochrom>	That also gets rids of a lot of the weaker students. >:)
22:49:54	<dsal>	heh
22:50:32	<monochrom>	I am very uncomfortable with getting rid of weak students because I don't want my class average to be too damn high!
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22:52:34	<zero>	get rid of map and just fold
22:52:34	<dsal>	Do you get paid by a measurable amount of education you put into people?
22:52:43	<dsal>	I like fold
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22:52:58	<monochrom>	Do you go one step further, switch to untyped lambda calculus, so that you don't even need that version of fix? >:)
22:53:19	<maerwald>	dsal: ahaha
22:53:30	<monochrom>	No, my pay is not tied to the class average.
22:54:17	<monochrom>	But sometimes if the class average is too damn high or too damn low, the department chair needs to ask me why. And really, I don't know!
22:54:35	<dsal>	monochrom: The Musical
22:55:45	<zero>	i think education suffers from the observer effect. you cant grade students without the fact that you're grading them has an effect on their performance
22:56:13	<zero>	and it's a big effect
22:56:17	<xerox>	if it doesn't have an effect why would they enroll
22:56:36	<monochrom>	What's wrong with that?
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22:56:57	<zero>	because universities print some papers that get them jobs
22:57:25	<monochrom>	Don't tell me naïve left-wing answers such as "after graudation they are never graded again".
22:57:30	<zero>	it's not inherently wrong
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22:58:14	<EvanR>	this is where curves come in
22:58:16	<zero>	it's just impossible not to let it often get in the way of things
22:58:21	<EvanR>	the great equalizer
22:59:04	<geekosaur>	this is all kinda offtopic by now…
22:59:08	<maerwald>	zero: grades are a concept from military. There it's used to distinguish the people who perform best under pressure. Because that's what matters there.
22:59:17	<arahael>	maerwald: hey, before i switch to rust for my alpine rpi3, is there anything else i could do to get haskell running? the ghcup stuff has missing symbols even if i find and satisfy the libraries.
22:59:56	<monochrom>	Perhaps forsake alpine?
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23:00:36	<[itchyjunk]>	@where paste
23:00:36	<lambdabot>	Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
23:01:11	<arahael>	monochrom: i ultimately want to make static binaries, which means musl.
23:01:28	<arahael>	and i would prefer not to have to set up and maintain a cross compiler.
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23:01:34	<[itchyjunk]>	my function g seems to be the place where it all goes wrong
23:01:35	<[itchyjunk]>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/hngcugQu
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23:03:20	<[itchyjunk]>	does any of it makes sense?
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23:03:38	<[itchyjunk]>	maybe time for a break, it might magically come to me later
23:03:40	<monochrom>	In the then branch, "helper (f2 n)" gives you a tuple.
23:03:53	<monochrom>	In the else branch, "f1 n" gives you a single number.
23:04:01	<monochrom>	Which one do you want?
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23:04:11	<[itchyjunk]>	ahhhh
23:04:20	<monochrom>	Or did you just forgot a recursive call to g in the then branch.
23:04:51	<[itchyjunk]>	i want f2 ( helper ( f2 n) )
23:05:30	<[itchyjunk]>	i think it should all be one recursive line once i figure this out xD i was hoping building it up one line at a time like this would make my brain figure it out
23:05:38	<monochrom>	f2 doesn't want a tuple either.
23:06:13	<maerwald>	arahael: ask in #ghc if someone has bootstrapped a musl aarch64 GHC
23:06:17	<zero>	[itchyjunk]: type signatures/annotations are your friend
23:06:21	<monochrom>	TBH I am surprised that it is not simply "then f2 n else f1 n"
23:06:41	<monochrom>	or "then g (f2 n) else f1 n"
23:07:10	<zero>	@type divMod
23:07:11	<lambdabot>	Integral a => a -> a -> (a, a)
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23:07:24	<monochrom>	f2 already uses helper, so what's "helper (f2 n)" doing there?
23:07:26	<arahael>	maerwald: thanks for the tip! will do that in a moment.
23:07:31	<jle`>	using parseGenericPackageDescription seems to drop the library/executable/etc. portions of the cabal file and only gets the top level metadata
23:07:34	<jle`>	i wonder if i'm missing something
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23:09:51	<dsal>	[itchyjunk]: it's pretty important to think about the type signature first, I find. It might seem "harder" but it gets you there sooner and with better error messages.
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23:10:41	<EvanR>	yeah there's probably a reason the type signature doesn't go after the code xD
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23:12:16	<jle`>	ah it's under CondLibrary
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23:44:11	<[itchyjunk]>	alright, i'll do types first
23:44:19	<[itchyjunk]>	i generally seem to always get the signature wrong :P
23:44:33	<[itchyjunk]>	the ghci has negatively reinforced my brain to avoid it
23:45:49	<geekosaur>	work on the signatures, then
23:45:56	<[itchyjunk]>	;_;
23:46:10	<geekosaur>	once you can express an appropriate signature, the function may well "write itself"
23:46:35	<[itchyjunk]>	ah, i'll stop avoiding signatures !
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23:47:48	<monochrom>	You can let us take a look at your candidate type sig and invite comments.
23:51:48	<jle`>	type signatures are like automatic rubber ducks
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All times are in UTC on 2021-11-22.