Logs on 2021-11-24 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:17:48 | <dsal> | @pl \x -> Just <$> x <|> empty |
| 00:17:48 | <lambdabot> | (<|> empty) . (Just <$>) |
| 00:17:54 | <dsal> | Proof that pl always makes things better |
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| 00:28:24 | <pavonia> | It makes them pointless, not necessarily better |
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| 00:33:40 | <dsal> | It'd be extra cool if it pointed out that the `(<|> empty) . ` was the real pointless. |
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| 00:53:54 | <monochrom> | PHB = pointless haskell boss >:) |
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| 00:55:59 | <Nolrai2> | In places where both would work is it better to use type families or functional depencies? |
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| 01:01:09 | <geekosaur> | I think it comes down to personal preference; arguments can be made for both |
| 01:01:39 | <geekosaur> | the downside of fundeps is they're harder to reason about because they're more Prolog than Haskell |
| 01:02:14 | <geekosaur> | the downside of type familoies is, especially if non-injective, they can be harder to reason about |
| 01:02:32 | <geekosaur> | so basically different varieties of the same downside for both |
| 01:03:29 | <dsal> | I've only had fundeps come up as a "I need this thing." Maybe I'm ignorant and they're more related than I thought. |
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| 01:04:01 | <geekosaur> | fundeps and associated type families do pretty much the same thing |
| 01:04:12 | <geekosaur> | iirc they've been proven equivalent in expressive power |
| 01:05:47 | <dsal> | I guess I need to understand the latter a bit more. |
| 01:05:57 | <dsal> | I needed this one day: `class Projector a b | a -> b where project :: a -> b -> [a]` |
| 01:05:59 | <c_wraith> | since this just came up in r/haskell, here. https://aphyr.com/posts/342-typing-the-technical-interview |
| 01:06:05 | <c_wraith> | all about fundeps :) |
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| 01:13:08 | <arahael> | jackdk: i am indeed on M1 |
| 01:13:31 | <dsal> | M1 posse |
| 01:13:36 | <arahael> | jackdk: and complicating it further, it seems my llvm is version 13.0.0 (which is whatever got installed by xcode) |
| 01:13:55 | <jackdk> | arahael: I'm on x86_64-pc-linux-gnu so I can't help sorry |
| 01:14:20 | <dsal> | I just run out of nix. |
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| 01:14:31 | <Axman6> | pretty keen to get an M1 in the next few years. one of Twitter's engineering teams reackon the faster build times mean that they pey for themselves in saved dev time within about three months |
| 01:14:48 | <arahael> | dsal: even if i "ran out of nix" here, i'd still be using apple's xcode for the llvm. |
| 01:15:22 | <boxscape_> | hm I seem to remember recently seeing someone write a pattern synonym to check if a string has a certain prefix, which I previously thought you could only do with a view pattern + matching on Just. But I can't find it anymore. Any idea where I might find that or how to write such a pattern synonym? |
| 01:15:33 | <arahael> | Axman6: definitely, though then again, linux is by far the better trodden path, especially for haskell. |
| 01:15:59 | <Axman6> | There's little difference between macOS and linux when it comes to Haskell |
| 01:16:09 | <Axman6> | I've been developing for linus on macOS for years |
| 01:16:13 | <Axman6> | linux too |
| 01:16:32 | <Axman6> | spews Linus, you've been using proprietary software this whole time! |
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| 01:18:21 | <boxscape_> | (as in, say, `foo (Prefix "pref" rest) = rest <> " is the rest"`) |
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| 01:20:58 | <justsomeguy> | I defined the function taken :: Word -> [a] -> [a]; taken _ [] = []; taken 0 _ []; taken n (x:xs) = x : taken (n-1) xs, but when I run taken (-4) [1..20] I don't get a type error, but the numeric literal overflows and taken still runs. Is there a compiler flag I can turn on to make it a type error, instead? |
| 01:22:34 | <dsal> | boxscape_: I think Text has something for that. |
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| 01:23:03 | <dsal> | boxscape_: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/text-1.2.5.0/docs/Data-Text.html#g:22 |
| 01:23:18 | <justsomeguy> | The idea is to prevent invalid uses of taken with negative numbers by changing the type. I'm just kind of confused why ghci let's me run it with a negative number in the first place. |
| 01:23:29 | <dsal> | > -5 :: Word |
| 01:23:30 | <lambdabot> | 18446744073709551611 |
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| 01:23:50 | <dsal> | You might try Natural. |
| 01:23:56 | <dsal> | -5 :: Natural |
| 01:23:59 | <dsal> | > -5 :: Natural |
| 01:24:00 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 01:24:00 | <lambdabot> | Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Natural’ |
| 01:24:04 | <dsal> | See, that doesn't work. |
| 01:24:22 | <dsal> | @let import Numeric.Natural |
| 01:24:23 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 01:24:25 | <dsal> | > -5 :: Natural |
| 01:24:27 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: arithmetic underflow |
| 01:24:37 | <geekosaur> | justsomeguy, it can't be a type error. it might be a different kind if error but you might need NumericLiterals because by default (-5) is a function application and the checking qould have to be runtime, not compile time |
| 01:24:54 | <dsal> | This is similar to a conversation we were having recently. You can't really have a positive-only type. |
| 01:24:54 | <geekosaur> | % :set -XNumericLiterals |
| 01:24:54 | <yahb> | geekosaur: Some flags have not been recognized: -XNumericLiterals |
| 01:25:07 | <geekosaur> | hm |
| 01:25:39 | <geekosaur> | oh right, they reorganized that whole mess |
| 01:25:54 | <geekosaur> | % :set -XLexicalNegation |
| 01:25:54 | <yahb> | geekosaur: |
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| 01:26:06 | <geekosaur> | % (-5) :: Word |
| 01:26:07 | <yahb> | geekosaur: ; <interactive>:30:2: warning: [-Woverflowed-literals] Literal -5 is out of the Word range 0..18446744073709551615; 18446744073709551611 |
| 01:26:32 | <Nolrai2> | Nice! |
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| 01:28:58 | <dsal> | The downside is that requires that to have been the case all along the calling path. One place missed and you just have a big number. |
| 01:29:59 | <justsomeguy> | If I set that project-wide using stack, could I still encounter overflows? |
| 01:30:01 | <geekosaur> | but that's what's happening now, with no possibility of even a warning |
| 01:31:50 | <geekosaur> | possibly you'd have to also recompile any dependencies with the same flag |
| 01:31:53 | <arahael> | Axman6: little difference, maybe, so why can't i build sdl2 in cabal (my llvm is too new), or why can't i "cabal install shake"? :) |
| 01:32:33 | <Axman6> | probably because you're using a very newly supported architecture :) can you install older LLVM with homebrew? |
| 01:32:40 | <geekosaur> | although at some point you might just have to trust that no dependency uses a negative number as a Word value |
| 01:33:08 | <geekosaur> | because the warning (or error if -Werror) is thrown at the point the numeric literal appears |
| 01:33:23 | <geekosaur> | and won't happen if you for example do |
| 01:33:31 | <geekosaur> | % 3 - 4 :: Word |
| 01:33:32 | <yahb> | geekosaur: 18446744073709551615 |
| 01:34:13 | <geekosaur> | that one would again have to be a runtime error, the compiler cannot detect this for you |
| 01:36:03 | <justsomeguy> | Ok, interesting. |
| 01:37:50 | <Cajun> | does GHC compute expressions consisting of purely literals pre-compilation? i havent heard anyone mention it so i assume not |
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| 01:38:13 | <geekosaur> | it does not |
| 01:38:22 | <Axman6> | it doesn't do any sort of constant folding? |
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| 01:38:47 | <geekosaur> | nope |
| 01:38:58 | <Cajun> | has that idea been passed around? |
| 01:39:05 | <geekosaur> | it's been discussed |
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| 01:39:47 | <geekosaur> | there are problems like (a) which operations do you constant fold (b) what are the laziness/strictness implications in each case |
| 01:40:00 | <boxscape_> | doesn't it constant fold with RULES pragmas |
| 01:40:12 | <boxscape_> | see e.g. https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/9136 |
| 01:40:19 | <geekosaur> | RULES pragmas only know types, not whether something is a constant or not |
| 01:40:35 | <Axman6> | LLVM can sometimes do it for you, I remember Don Stewart's posts on writing H?Askell faster than C years ago showing that you could get sum [1..1000000] to compile to a constant |
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| 01:41:34 | <geekosaur> | (and "what operations" is complicated by typeclass instances in scope, potentially including nonstandard Num instances and such) |
| 01:42:18 | <geekosaur> | (and there are indeed alternative Preludes which use different Num instances for even the basic types) |
| 01:42:40 | <geekosaur> | basically the whole issue has a number of minefields you can't encounter in other languages |
| 01:43:28 | <Guest63> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/NlqoFQO2 |
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| 01:44:12 | <Guest63> | I'm receiving an error whenever I am trying to test my function allAnswers |
| 01:44:39 | <Cajun> | Axman6: https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2009-February/056248.html looks like something you are referring to |
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| 01:48:11 | <Cajun> | Guest63: are those `ints` in the type signature deliberately lowercase? try making that a capital-I Int |
| 01:48:35 | <geekosaur> | won't work, you can't (usefully?) say Show Int as a constraint I think |
| 01:48:55 | <Cajun> | well removing those should rid you of that issue yeah? |
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| 01:49:22 | <geekosaur> | but that does look confusing and likely the cause, because I think that it can't do defaulting through shouldBe and therefore has no idea what type to use there |
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| 01:50:04 | <Cajun> | also shouldnt that be (a -> Maybe [b]) in `nonsense` since `allAnswers` expects (a -> Maybe [b]) |
| 01:50:22 | <Cajun> | or rather `Int -> Maybe Int` |
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| 01:50:39 | <Cajun> | s/Maybe Int/Maybe [Int] |
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| 01:52:55 | <monochrom> | Then "Just n" makes no sense. |
| 01:53:24 | <monochrom> | Well, it never made sense in the first place. |
| 01:53:55 | <Cajun> | yeah i think changing the `int` to `Int` and following the type errors and trusting the compiler will lead to something that works |
| 01:54:10 | <Cajun> | or a billion constraints, whichever comes first |
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| 01:56:38 | <monochrom> | Pessimistically I actually think that the current story state of affairs was the outcome of some kind of following the type errors and listening to compiler suggestions. |
| 01:56:56 | <monochrom> | The original version had Int -> Maybe Int. |
| 01:57:24 | <monochrom> | It did not fit allAnswer's expectations. |
| 01:58:13 | <monochrom> | The student did not "understand" the error message. They decided that polymorphism would relax type restrictions. Afterall, it's "polymorphic". |
| 01:58:21 | <Guest63> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/z34BjgOM |
| 01:58:22 | <Cajun> | yeah i do too, considering the show, eq, and num constraints. but i think those are because int wasnt capitalized so the compiler said to add those |
| 01:58:36 | <Guest63> | I changed int to a, and gave the complete context |
| 01:58:38 | <monochrom> | So it was changed to "int -> Maybe int" with a type variable. |
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| 01:59:01 | <monochrom> | And then the compiler "helpfully" suggested that "you need to add those Eq, Num, Show conditions". |
| 02:00:38 | <Cajun> | thats what im thinking, yeah |
| 02:00:39 | <Guest63> | "int" wasn't supposed to be "Int". it was just a type variable, i've now changed it to "a" or similar. |
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| 02:00:48 | <Cajun> | ah welp |
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| 02:03:27 | <awpr> | if it's polymorphic, you'll have to choose a particular type to test it on -- e.g. try putting a type signature `2 :: Int` inside the test case input list |
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| 02:05:48 | <monochrom> | I don't understand why allAnswers is not "(a -> Maybe b) -> [a] -> [b]". |
| 02:05:53 | <Cajun> | im confused on `nonsense` being passed to `allAnswers`. `nonsense :: (a -> Maybe a)` and the first argument of allAnswers `(a -> Maybe [b])` are different arent they? unless a ~ [b]? |
| 02:06:18 | <c_wraith> | monochrom: because then it's too obviously a variant of concatMap |
| 02:06:46 | <boxscape_> | I can see "copyFile" in System.Directory, but if I'm seeing this correctly it doesn't work for directories. Is there a way to copy directories? |
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| 02:06:52 | <monochrom> | And I don't understand why "firstAnswer nonsense [2,3,4] `shouldBe` Just 3" (note that it is not Just 2) and yet the allAnswers version can have 2 in [2,3,4]. |
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| 02:09:05 | <Cajun> | boxscape_: `Shelly` has good implementations of those kinda things, but i havent dabbled in that too much |
| 02:09:15 | <boxscape_> | hm okay thanks |
| 02:09:22 | <dsal> | I was about to link to that. heh |
| 02:09:29 | <dsal> | It's a higher level abstraction needed, as the system doesn't typically have that. |
| 02:09:42 | <boxscape_> | I see |
| 02:09:51 | <geekosaur> | boxscape_, the problem is directory package wants to be system-agnostic but there's no system-agnostic way to copy a directory tree |
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| 02:10:00 | <boxscape_> | okay |
| 02:10:40 | <geekosaur> | windows and unix do different things, at least if you want to copy all attributes |
| 02:10:49 | <boxscape_> | right, makes sense |
| 02:11:22 | <geekosaur> | Shelly can do it but I'm pretty sure it's unix-only |
| 02:12:31 | <boxscape_> | cobbling something together in terms of directory's createDirectory and copyFile might be enough for me |
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| 02:37:04 | <boxscape_> | good news: it works. Bad news: I must have the wrong type signature somewhere, because it created 1479 copies of my directory instead of 25 |
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| 02:37:29 | <c_wraith> | ... that sounds like AoC prep |
| 02:37:47 | <boxscape_> | yep :) |
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| 02:39:02 | <c_wraith> | you're prepared for the long version now! |
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| 02:39:26 | <boxscape_> | good point |
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| 02:42:03 | <boxscape_> | % newtype Day = MkDay {unDay :: Int} deriving (Enum, Eq, Ord, Num, Show, Read) via Int |
| 02:42:03 | <yahb> | boxscape_: |
| 02:42:10 | <boxscape_> | % instance Bounded Day where minBound = 1; maxBound = 25 |
| 02:42:10 | <yahb> | boxscape_: |
| 02:42:16 | <boxscape_> | % [minBound :: Day ..] |
| 02:42:22 | <yahb> | boxscape_: [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,69,70,71,72,73,74,75,76,77,78,79,80,81,82,83,84,85,86,87,88,89,90,91,92,93,94,95,96,97,98,99,100,101,102,103,104,105,106,107,108,109,110,111,112,113,114,115,116,117,118,119,120,121,122,123,124,125,126,127 |
| 02:42:27 | <boxscape_> | I expected this to stop at 25 |
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| 02:42:38 | <geekosaur> | Enum is not Bounded |
| 02:42:53 | <boxscape_> | I suppose I can see why |
| 02:42:59 | <awpr> | it got the Enum instance by taking the instance for `Int` and using it for `Day` |
| 02:43:23 | <boxscape_> | yes, I expected enumFrom to check for maxBound (which doesn't make sense to be fair, looking at the type signature |
| 02:43:24 | <boxscape_> | ) |
| 02:44:31 | <geekosaur> | where's merijn to complain about Enum and Bounded being wrong :þ |
| 02:45:31 | <boxscape_> | boundedEnumFrom exists so that's nice |
| 02:46:07 | <EvanR> | for some reason enumFrom screams "infinite" to me |
| 02:46:21 | <boxscape_> | I always do things like [Monday ..] to get all the days of the week |
| 02:46:35 | <boxscape_> | I hadn't considered before that [minBound..] can be different from [minBound..maxBound] |
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| 02:47:34 | <boxscape_> | (And I suppose it can't if you use `deriving stock (Bounded, Enum)`) |
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| 02:48:32 | <EvanR> | tbf [minBound..] is technically not infinite? xD |
| 02:48:50 | <boxscape_> | it is in the case I asked of yahb above |
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| 02:49:04 | <EvanR> | > enumFrom 9223372036854775807 :: [Int] |
| 02:49:05 | <lambdabot> | [9223372036854775807] |
| 02:49:07 | <EvanR> | hmm |
| 02:49:13 | <boxscape_> | ah, well |
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| 02:49:23 | <boxscape_> | I suppose I would have to use Integer for it to be truly infinite |
| 02:49:38 | <EvanR> | > [9223372036854775807 ..] :: [Int] |
| 02:49:39 | <lambdabot> | [9223372036854775807] |
| 02:49:46 | <EvanR> | hehe |
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| 02:51:17 | <EvanR> | varying levels of infinite |
| 02:51:53 | <EvanR> | i can't really go through all the numbers in an Int... and Integer craps out at some point |
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| 02:52:28 | <EvanR> | (later) |
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| 03:00:38 | <arahael> | I have this specific issue: https://github.com/corsis/clock/issues/70 - I noticed that it's just been closed, what must have been the fix? |
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| 03:03:13 | <boxscape_> | I have a better solution for my bounds issue now https://paste.tomsmeding.com/dcNwvBwN |
| 03:03:44 | <boxscape_> | (last line is supposed to have `Between 1 25`, not `Between 1 2`) |
| 03:04:11 | <boxscape_> | (also I accidentally wrote toEnum instead of fromEnum) |
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| 03:16:39 | <dsal> | boxscape_: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/finite-typelits |
| 03:17:09 | <boxscape_> | thanks |
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| 03:22:31 | <dsal> | boxscape_: I used this a couple days ago. It's pretty great: https://dustin.github.io/tesla/Tesla-Car-Command.html |
| 03:22:50 | <dsal> | Tesla API takes an int number of minutes since midnight. |
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| 03:25:30 | <boxscape__> | dsal yeah definitely looks useful |
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| 03:38:33 | <dsal> | I rewrote a recursive function with `fix` and I'm not sure why I did that. Are there places where it makes sense? |
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| 03:46:53 | <EvanR> | sometimes fix makes the whole thing smaller |
| 03:47:20 | <EvanR> | and pretty much guarantees someone (possibly you) will look at the code later and not know wtf is happening |
| 03:47:30 | <c_wraith> | I like fix in very limited cases, where it means I don't have to define a recursive operation inline and call it in separate steps. |
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| 03:48:56 | <c_wraith> | like... fix $ \loop -> do ... |
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| 04:15:23 | <dsal> | Ah, yeah. I think I needed mfix once ever. Then I later didn't need it. |
| 04:15:55 | <dsal> | In this particular case, I just noticed I changed it and didn't commit it, so I have the smaller version which is easier to read as a reference. heh |
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| 05:13:16 | <EvanR> | recursive do can be used to manually create looping data structures, but I'm not sure if its practical |
| 05:13:42 | <EvanR> | I guess it could be a slick way to generate a node list |
| 05:13:47 | <EvanR> | of a graph |
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| 05:36:51 | <dsal> | I was reading some of the RULES in Data.List and see `foldr/id" foldr (:) [] = \x -> x` and... that's kind of weird. |
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| 05:41:33 | <rkrishnan> | trying to build ghcjs from their default branch 8.10.7 and the build process builds ghc and gives me this error: https://pastebin.com/YDi0QaTr I pasted the code around the reported line here: https://pastebin.com/8qFquJHg Seem like the #include in the previous line is the culprit? |
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| 06:04:18 | <arahael> | Can I specify a default set of additional ghc-options to be used system-wide? |
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| 06:04:36 | <arahael> | Getting a bit tired of typing the likes of: cabal run --ghc-option=(pkg-config --cflags libffi) |
| 06:06:35 | <xsperry> | IIRC I there's a way to do that, but the more common approach is to put it in ghc-options section of the project's cabal file |
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| 06:07:29 | <xsperry> | {-# OPTIONS_GHC ... #-} on top of the file works too |
| 06:08:17 | <arahael> | xsperry: It needs to be applied to the modules that cabal would install as dependencies, though. |
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| 06:08:48 | <arahael> | Ie, I really do want it to be as global as I've got it there. |
| 06:08:58 | <arahael> | Otherwise I can't install or build anything that requires the ffi. |
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| 06:13:00 | <sub0> | arahael, wellshouldn't those modules have ffi specified in their cabal file, if they require it? I never had problems installing modules that require FFI, without specifying any global cabal options |
| 06:13:30 | <arahael> | sub0: I have this bug: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/20592 |
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| 06:23:22 | <sub0> | arahael, I never encountered similar error. perhaps ask your question again at a more busy hour |
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| 06:24:25 | <c_wraith> | arahael: the last comment there suggests you can just set an env variable |
| 06:25:52 | <arahael> | Oh, of course. Let me try that. |
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| 06:27:32 | <arahael> | That does work a charm. :) |
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| 08:54:43 | <whatif> | is linked list useful in haskell? |
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| 08:55:55 | <kuribas> | whatif: why wouldn't it be? |
| 08:56:09 | <kuribas> | Most of the prelude functions are on linked lists. |
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| 08:56:53 | <whatif> | I haven't used it, I don't know what case it is for |
| 08:57:15 | <kuribas> | I guess that means you haven't used haskell at all? |
| 08:57:31 | <whatif> | ... |
| 08:58:24 | <kuribas> | lists and maps are pretty much the most used collection in my code. |
| 08:58:32 | <merijn> | whatif: That's not a weird question. I would honestly be fairly astonished if you haven't used linked lists in Haskell |
| 08:58:40 | <whatif> | I learn a few language, like python kotlin and haskell, I don't know when to use "linked list" |
| 08:59:12 | <dminuoso> | whatif: In Haskell, the regular list type [] is used often as a plain substitute for generic lists or implicitly for control flow |
| 08:59:17 | <merijn> | whatif: Haskell's list *is* a linked list, so if you've used lists in haskell, you already have used them |
| 08:59:18 | <dminuoso> | It's very ubiquitious |
| 08:59:41 | <dminuoso> | Even when you use String, you are using a list because `type String = [Char]` |
| 08:59:54 | <dminuoso> | (Of course whether that was ever a good idea is debatable) |
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| 08:59:57 | <kuribas> | whatif: whenever you need to store many values. |
| 09:01:00 | <whatif> | I saw someone implement a linked list with class in python, I don't know what's the point |
| 09:01:20 | <whatif> | like implement a linked list in haskell? |
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| 09:01:41 | <whatif> | and [] is already a linked list, what's the point? |
| 09:01:48 | <dminuoso> | What's the point of what? |
| 09:02:03 | <whatif> | to creat a new linked list |
| 09:02:08 | <kuribas> | whatif: indeed, there is no point in reimplementing a linked list in haskell, except for teaching the concept. |
| 09:02:13 | <dminuoso> | Who is telling yout o "create a new linked list", whatif? |
| 09:02:43 | <whatif> | dminuoso: I saw someone's code is doing that |
| 09:02:44 | <kuribas> | whatif: though many guides do it show that a list is not a primitive in haskell. |
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| 09:03:00 | <dminuoso> | whatif: Ask them, then? |
| 09:03:12 | <dminuoso> | Without knowing more details, we cant tell you why someone else did what they did. |
| 09:03:29 | <whatif> | right |
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| 09:05:48 | <kuribas> | whatif: use only good code as examples of writing haskell, not bad code. |
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| 09:11:23 | <sub0> | I can't see any practical reason for implementing and then using your own linked list in haskell, vs a built in one. so it was probably in the context of teaching |
| 09:12:43 | <merijn> | sub0: Well, NonEmpty is one :p |
| 09:13:12 | <kuribas> | Or doubly linked one, use tie the knot? |
| 09:13:28 | <kuribas> | Hard to know without whatif giving more info. |
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| 10:06:04 | <rkrishnan> | Does ghcjs support compiling packages that has C code? |
| 10:07:58 | <merijn> | Almost certainly not |
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| 10:12:03 | <rkrishnan> | merijn: thanks. That is what I guessed too. But then I saw emcc being used. Seem like it is only used as a preprocessor? |
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| 10:12:45 | <rkrishnan> | I guess this means, packages that depend on cryptonite cannot be compiled using ghcjs. :-( |
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| 10:17:31 | <[exa]> | rkrishnan: not sure that it would be a great idea even if it worked, you'd lose most of the good properties of the implemnetation there anyway |
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| 10:20:20 | <rkrishnan> | [exa]: yes, agreed. |
| 10:21:00 | <[exa]> | otoh "at least it would work"... :D |
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| 10:22:40 | <kuribas> | merijn: no webassembly hack? |
| 10:25:31 | <merijn> | I dunno |
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| 11:08:52 | <dminuoso> | Gah, why do let bindings in do-notation force Monad while ApplicativeDo is enabled? |
| 11:09:13 | <dminuoso> | Couldn't GHC assume referential transparency, and just inline the let binding instead? |
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| 11:11:42 | <opqdonut> | dminuoso: let <pattern> = ... needs MonadFail I guess? Maybe GHC doesn't detect whether patterns can fail? |
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| 11:13:31 | <dminuoso> | opqdonut: Id be surprised if it did. MonadFail is about pattern matches on <-, no? |
| 11:13:52 | <dminuoso> | @undo do { let x = 1; pure () } |
| 11:13:52 | <lambdabot> | <unknown>.hs:1:25:Parse error: } |
| 11:14:34 | <opqdonut> | > do let Just x = Nothing; [True] |
| 11:14:35 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:32: error: |
| 11:14:35 | <lambdabot> | parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets) |
| 11:14:41 | <opqdonut> | > do {let Just x = Nothing; [True]} |
| 11:14:43 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:33: error: parse error on input ‘}’ |
| 11:14:45 | <opqdonut> | meh |
| 11:14:51 | <dminuoso> | Yeah I cant figure it out either |
| 11:15:51 | <dminuoso> | undo do {a <- x; let b = a; f a b } |
| 11:15:53 | <dminuoso> | @undo do {a <- x; let b = a; f a b } |
| 11:15:53 | <lambdabot> | <unknown>.hs:1:30:Parse error: } |
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| 11:16:59 | <dminuoso> | @undo do let { x = 1} in pure () |
| 11:16:59 | <lambdabot> | let { x = 1} in pure () |
| 11:17:02 | <dminuoso> | opqdonut: ^- |
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| 11:18:17 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: probably applicativeDo is done before optimizations. |
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| 11:21:33 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: but I find it a rather half-assed extension. |
| 11:21:45 | <kuribas> | Perhaps it is hard to do whole-assed. |
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| 11:28:08 | <opqdonut> | dminuoso: I'd expect "let ... in ..." to work in ApplicativeDo, but that's different from "let ...;" |
| 11:29:19 | <opqdonut> | but looks like I was wrong about MonadFail, at least the Haskell2010 standard specifies that <- generates calls to fail but let doesn't |
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| 11:36:53 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: Im not talking about inlining as an optimization. |
| 11:37:08 | <dminuoso> | Im talking about inlining as a sort of gap filler |
| 11:37:42 | <dminuoso> | In the sense of "If ApplicativeDo is enabled, do an additional pass on the do-block inlining all let bindings" |
| 11:38:15 | <opqdonut> | that might surprise some users |
| 11:38:23 | <opqdonut> | breaks the "a defined name is evaluated at most once" rule |
| 11:39:18 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: it looks to me like there is a lot of overhanging fruit for ApplicativeDo. |
| 11:39:28 | <kuribas> | But maybe there are subtle details that I don't see... |
| 11:39:57 | <dminuoso> | opqdonut: Where is that rule written? |
| 11:40:27 | <dminuoso> | Haskell already does inlining everywhere anyway |
| 11:40:34 | <dminuoso> | So I dont have that guarantee either way |
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| 11:41:34 | <dminuoso> | Or differently phrased: if what you wrote was true, haskell could *never* inline something that was named |
| 11:41:43 | <dminuoso> | Or inline it twice, at least. |
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| 11:44:05 | <opqdonut> | dminuoso: it's my mental model for reasoning about haskell performance, at least, and it's kinda the definition of lazy evaluation |
| 11:44:12 | <opqdonut> | but yeah it might not be strictly true |
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| 11:44:31 | <opqdonut> | (heh, strictly) |
| 11:44:43 | <dminuoso> | cute pun indeed :() |
| 11:45:26 | <dminuoso> | opqdonut: Im not sure you even need that for lazy evaluation, as long as its not observably different. The only place this matters for is tractable sharing |
| 11:45:41 | <dminuoso> | Because sharing relies on GHC not inlining the very definition |
| 11:46:22 | <opqdonut> | mhmm |
| 11:46:27 | <dminuoso> | And infact, there's a good reason global IORefs use NOLINE |
| 11:46:31 | <dminuoso> | NOINLINE even |
| 11:47:09 | <dminuoso> | Because otherwise GHC would be free to inline that `foo = unsafePerformIO (newIORef "foo")` everywhere |
| 11:48:46 | <dminuoso> | Maybe Ill throw this question towards the GHC folks, they ought to know what the simplifier does best |
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| 11:49:32 | <arahael> | Am I able to have two different versions of ghcup and have it manage their own haskells? |
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| 11:54:25 | <arahael> | (It's not a stupid question - I basically want to have two different architectures installed simultaniously) |
| 11:57:02 | <boxscape_> | If I use unsafePerformIO to read a config file, is it advisable to add a NOINLINE pragma? |
| 11:57:45 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: I would love for ghc to inline my 1 + x, but wouldn't like my ghc to inline 'sum (primesUntil 1e8)' |
| 11:58:05 | <tomsmeding> | the definition of work duplication becomes fuzzy when talking about optimising compilers, because sometimes duplication of work is beneficial |
| 11:58:24 | <dminuoso> | boxscape_: My two cents are, probably yes? |
| 11:58:32 | <tomsmeding> | but I wouldn't want this to influence whether my do block has a MonadFail constraint -- that's a huge breaking of abstraction |
| 11:58:49 | <dminuoso> | boxscape_: Ive been bitten sorely by unsafePerformIO in multiple ways, suggesting what GHC does is not very intuitive., |
| 11:58:55 | <tomsmeding> | boxscape_: if you don't want your program to sometimes read the config file lots of times :) |
| 11:58:55 | <boxscape_> | okay |
| 11:59:02 | <boxscape_> | makes sense |
| 11:59:11 | <nf> | how can i turn a lens into a Context/Pretext? |
| 11:59:22 | <nf> | i mean applying it to some structure |
| 11:59:26 | <dminuoso> | boxscape_: My favourite was doing something like `traverse (\x -> Foo { field1 = x, field2 = unsafePerformIO (newIORef []) ) structure` |
| 11:59:37 | <dminuoso> | GHC floated that IORef out, sharing all those mutable buffers into one |
| 11:59:44 | <boxscape_> | oh, nice |
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| 12:01:00 | <dminuoso> | nf: You use `sell` |
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| 12:01:12 | <dminuoso> | See https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.1/docs/src/Control.Lens.Lens.html#cloneLens for instance |
| 12:01:33 | <nf> | hm, thanks |
| 12:01:45 | <nf> | isn't that internal |
| 12:01:52 | <dminuoso> | Yes. |
| 12:02:09 | <dminuoso> | You asked how to turn it into Pretext, I answered? :p |
| 12:02:21 | <dminuoso> | nf: What is the problem you are trying to solve? |
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| 12:04:12 | <nf> | i have a list, say [1, 2, 3]. i want to apply a function Int -> [Int] to each element and get a list of lists |
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| 12:04:45 | <dminuoso> | Im a bit baffled, how do you possibly arrive at Context/Pretext with that question? |
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| 12:05:08 | <nf> | good question |
| 12:05:32 | <dminuoso> | Anyway. You just use `fmap` or its operator version `<$>` |
| 12:05:44 | <nf> | that's not what i mean |
| 12:05:49 | <nf> | say f is \n -> replicate n n |
| 12:06:00 | <nf> | i want to get [[1, 2, 3], [1, 2, 2, 3], [1, 2, 3, 3, 3]] |
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| 12:06:25 | <nf> | my current idea is to use suffixed suffix . prefixed prefix |
| 12:06:33 | <nf> | where suffix/prefix map over the tails and inits |
| 12:06:43 | <nf> | that gets me a list of lenses |
| 12:07:03 | <dminuoso> | Im not sure I see the pattern here |
| 12:07:03 | <nf> | then i guess i can just use the lenses on the initial list, i don't really need contexts |
| 12:07:15 | <dminuoso> | And Im also not sure what this has to do with lenses yet |
| 12:07:44 | <dminuoso> | You want the nth element to be replicated n times in place? |
| 12:08:01 | <nf> | that particular f is only an example |
| 12:08:05 | <nf> | it should work for any f |
| 12:08:21 | <nf> | the [] in f's return type isn't nondeterminism, it's the thing i want to insert in place of the element |
| 12:08:36 | <dminuoso> | Ah I see |
| 12:08:42 | <nf> | btw i'm not married to lists, if there's a data structure with a better interface for this i'm all ears |
| 12:09:12 | <nf> | Sequence has sliced but it applies f to each element of the slice. vector has sliced too but it comes with a big warning "don't change the length of the list" |
| 12:09:45 | <nf> | and if you want the FULL full context, i'm trying to solve advent of code 2015 day 19 part 1. |
| 12:10:19 | arahael | is impressed :) |
| 12:10:21 | <nf> | (in an elegant and/or overengineered way) |
| 12:10:40 | <arahael> | I drown the past years in sorrow and continue blindly forwards each year. ;) |
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| 12:11:13 | <dminuoso> | nf: So intuitively Id stare at contextsOf |
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| 12:11:28 | <dminuoso> | This has Plated written all over it |
| 12:11:56 | <nf> | yeah but the contexts given by contextsOf don't really let you insert a list into a single element |
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| 12:17:41 | <nf> | maybe there's something to do with iconcatMap |
| 12:18:28 | <nf> | or concatMapOf |
| 12:18:55 | <dminuoso> | nf: The closest thing I can see is actually Monad on Tree |
| 12:19:02 | <dminuoso> | Is this what you are after? |
| 12:19:20 | <nf> | i was thinking about that |
| 12:19:39 | <dminuoso> | Or rather Monad even on List |
| 12:20:14 | <nf> | that would be the iconcatMap idea |
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| 12:21:02 | <nf> | iconcatMap (\i x -> if i == j then f x else [x]) where j ranges over the length of the list |
| 12:21:03 | <dminuoso> | Yeah I guess |
| 12:22:09 | <dminuoso> | nf: Though I think the i is a red herring, since you can trivially just zip some index into the structure |
| 12:22:35 | <dminuoso> | As long as its Traversable, anyway |
| 12:22:42 | <nf> | yes, it's just convenient |
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| 12:37:28 | <nf> | ugh, my prefixed . suffixed idea just unfolds itself into normal lens-free code |
| 12:37:56 | <nf> | hate when that happens |
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| 13:13:48 | <tomsmeding> | oh no, no more fancy stuffs, my code is too simple! |
| 13:14:07 | <tomsmeding> | nf: when in need, you can always @pl |
| 13:14:24 | <nf> | :D |
| 13:14:47 | <arahael> | Is it possible to use a custom fork of a dependency? |
| 13:15:01 | <tomsmeding> | with cabal.project or stack.yaml, yes |
| 13:15:18 | <arahael> | Ah, nifty, so I should look at the docs for cabal.project. |
| 13:15:19 | <tomsmeding> | add a git repo dependency with the right name, then I think it will be used instead of the hackage one |
| 13:15:25 | <arahael> | Neat. |
| 13:15:35 | <arahael> | That should work around a basement issue I've got. |
| 13:15:35 | <maerwald> | or create your own hackage repo |
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| 13:17:26 | <arahael> | maerwald: I don't think I want that overhead, but the thought is intriguing. |
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| 13:17:46 | boxscape_ | ．。ｏＯI should do AoC purely on the type-level one of these days |
| 13:18:33 | <tomsmeding> | tip, uses idris, then that goal can be reached without changing code |
| 13:18:54 | <boxscape_> | that's cheating :( |
| 13:19:08 | <tomsmeding> | agreed |
| 13:20:35 | maerwald | closes the DH proposal with "go use Idris" |
| 13:21:58 | <tomsmeding> | that's cheating :( |
| 13:22:17 | <maerwald> | agreed |
| 13:22:20 | <arahael> | This makes me feel good - G'night. :) ( boxscape_: AoC's a good place for cheating. Just don't tell santa.) |
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| 13:23:21 | <boxscape_> | :) |
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| 14:26:41 | <slack1256> | Does DerivingVia only make sense for newtypes, not for data? is that right? |
| 14:28:51 | <boxscape_> | that's right |
| 14:28:53 | <int-e> | The intermediate type (the `via` one) is always a newtype. |
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| 14:29:12 | <[exa]> | slack1256: it explicitly requires that the 2 things are coercible, which basically means that it must be a newtype |
| 14:29:24 | <int-e> | But you can derive instances for any type. So... which of these types is the question about? |
| 14:29:57 | <boxscape_> | right, you could have something like `data Foo a = ... deriving Show via Bar Foo`, here `Bar` has to be a newtype |
| 14:30:08 | <nf> | looking for inspiration, what do i name a function of type Ord k => [(k, a)] -> Map k [a] ? |
| 14:30:30 | <int-e> | :t M.fromListWith (++) |
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| 14:30:31 | <lambdabot> | Ord k => [(k, [a])] -> M.Map k [a] |
| 14:30:39 | <nf> | not quite |
| 14:30:42 | <int-e> | :t M.fromListWith (++) . map (second pure) |
| 14:30:43 | <lambdabot> | Ord k => [(k, a)] -> M.Map k [a] |
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| 14:31:03 | <nf> | now give it a name |
| 14:31:05 | <slack1256> | boxscape_ , int-e : Got it, it is clear now! :-) |
| 14:31:19 | <janus> | tomsmeding: code evaluated at compile time in idris can be way slower. so it is not always feasible to take previously compiled code and evaluate it |
| 14:31:21 | <int-e> | nf: I've done it a number of time and never named it |
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| 14:31:37 | <int-e> | nf: so I'll just refuse again. |
| 14:31:45 | <nf> | :( |
| 14:32:55 | <int-e> | well, `group` or `classify` are verbs in this context |
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| 14:33:59 | <tomsmeding> | janus: who said anything about performance :) |
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| 14:34:12 | <tomsmeding> | but you're right of course |
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| 14:35:01 | <janus> | but with AoC don't you have to submit some kind of result? if it finishes a computation, nothing can be submitted |
| 14:35:11 | <janus> | *if it never |
| 14:35:40 | <boxscape_> | usually the performance requirements aren't *too* bad as long as you choose an algorithm with alright asymptotics |
| 14:36:50 | <boxscape_> | I think I'm misunderstanding readPrec. I have `newtype Day = MkDay Int`, and `instance Read Day where readPrec = MkDay <$> readPrec @Int`. But if I try something like `read "24" :: Day`, I get an infinite loop. Any idea why? |
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| 14:38:02 | <janus> | boxscape_: i had a problem the other day with type-level nats being way to slow when interpreted. the asymptotics are probably the same but the constant factor is way larger. so given that i am just a beginning idris programmer and i ran into this, i am not convinced it is usually ok. asymptotics don't matter if the constants are huge. |
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| 14:39:22 | <boxscape_> | doesn't that change the asymptotics because Idris uses unary for type-level nats but binary for term-level nats? I could be wrong. |
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| 14:40:22 | <boxscape_> | (Though to be clear I meant the performance requirements for AOC, I didn't mean to comment before on how using a function on a type-level in Idris affects its performance) |
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| 14:45:22 | <boxscape_> | Okay when I try the same thing yahb it's not an infinite loop, hmm |
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| 14:45:54 | <boxscape_> | Ohh I think my Show instance is actually what's producing the infinite loop |
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| 14:47:19 | <kuribas> | janus: slow to compile? |
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| 14:48:57 | <janus> | kuribas: yes, because code evaluated at compile time is apparently never compiled, always interpreted |
| 14:49:27 | <kuribas> | janus: that makes sense, because type checking must preserve syntax. |
| 14:50:02 | <kuribas> | janus: or you need a compiler that can pre-compile, while preserving syntax. |
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| 14:50:47 | <tomsmeding> | more than preserving syntax, you need to _partially evaluate_, which is quite different from normal full evaluation |
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| 14:51:04 | <kuribas> | janus: But I doubt it's a current goal for idris, it just wants to have a working compiler, and put optimizations as much as possible on the backend. |
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| 14:54:28 | <tomsmeding> | nf: groupToMap |
| 14:55:09 | <nf> | thx |
| 14:55:15 | <kuribas> | also, typechecking and evaluation is intertwined, so I don't it's trivial to "compile" type level. |
| 14:55:41 | <kuribas> | Maybe an interesting topic for someone's PHD :) |
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| 15:21:58 | <MiguelNegrao> | Hi all, I need to write a function which receives an 'HList as' with the following constraints: all 'as' are of type '(Text,Something o -> o)' and there is a Constraint on 'o'. Is this possible ? Eventually I want to call hMap on it. |
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| 15:33:56 | <kuribas> | looking at the HList library makes my head hurt... |
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| 15:34:42 | <MiguelNegrao> | indeed... :-( |
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| 15:36:16 | <kuribas> | out of curiosity, what are you trying to do? |
| 15:36:28 | <kuribas> | That needs fancy types? |
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| 15:41:47 | <kuribas> | There should be an 'All' constraint on type level lists somewhere... |
| 15:42:00 | <kuribas> | And you can make an intermediary class to catch that constraint. |
| 15:43:01 | <kuribas> | But my best advice is, don't do this stuff in haskell :-P |
| 15:44:31 | <MiguelNegrao> | In gtk Its possible to get a group of widgets to be constucted based on a text file generated by GUI which lets you design windows and widgets |
| 15:45:04 | <MiguelNegrao> | Then it is possible to extract the individual widgets from a text label, but you need to provide the type that it should have |
| 15:45:27 | <MiguelNegrao> | I wanted to do it all in a function, construct the widgets and extract them with the right type |
| 15:45:28 | <kuribas> | link to do? |
| 15:45:32 | <kuribas> | to doc |
| 15:46:42 | <MiguelNegrao> | The relevant function is https://github.com/mr/reactive-banana-gi-gtk/blob/b1b72d58bf45ac111e320cc0308d00ce6f9fbfe4/reactive-banana-gi-gtk/src/Reactive/Banana/GI/Gtk.hs#L71 |
| 15:47:10 | <MiguelNegrao> | Instead of a single GObject o I want to deal with a list of them |
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| 15:48:02 | <MiguelNegrao> | But each o will have a different type |
| 15:48:11 | <kuribas> | Couldn't you use an existential instead? |
| 15:50:17 | <kuribas> | data AnyGObject = forall o . GObject o => AnyGObject o |
| 15:50:49 | <kuribas> | Then [AnyGObject o] -> ... |
| 15:50:57 | <kuribas> | erm [AnyGObject] |
| 15:51:10 | <kuribas> | well something like that. |
| 15:51:20 | <kuribas> | Seems much more sane than HList. |
| 15:51:44 | <kuribas> | Most likely there is an even easier way, but hard to say without context. |
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| 15:51:58 | <MiguelNegrao> | Right, I think that would work, but would require wrapping each element in AnyGObject. On the other hand HList also requires knowing the syntax for constructing the list, so it might be as onerous to the user. |
| 15:52:21 | <kuribas> | Existentials are way easier then HLists. |
| 15:52:28 | <kuribas> | But still fancy haskell mind you... |
| 15:53:10 | <MiguelNegrao> | Thanks, for the suggestion, I might go with that. |
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| 17:27:01 | <slack1256> | I think we need a "heartbeat" for hackage pages. It would a soft way of saying "we haven't updated this package since 2016, but it still compiles and works on ghc 9.2.1". Do other communities have something similar? |
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| 17:28:51 | <geekosaur> | there is one sort of, I think? there's some stuff about last successful build, but I don't know if it retries the build when a new ghc is released |
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| 17:37:16 | <kuribas> | Does there exist a zipFoldMap? |
| 17:37:51 | <awpr> | I use metadata revisions for that kind of heartbeat. if it doesn't need revisions to keep building after a new GHC release, then its version bounds were done incorrectly |
| 17:38:06 | <kuribas> | like zipFoldMap :: (Foldable t, Monoid m) => (a -> b -> m) -> t a -> t b -> m |
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| 17:38:43 | <awpr> | so, recent revisions => "probably still maintained", and no recent revisions => "unmaintained or unreliable" |
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| 17:40:26 | <kuribas> | :t \f a b -> foldMap (uncurry f) $ zip a b |
| 17:40:27 | <lambdabot> | Monoid m => (a -> b -> m) -> [a] -> [b] -> m |
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| 18:07:27 | <EvanR> | kuribas, wouldn't that be better served by doing like... a bifold instead of going though a tuple |
| 18:09:17 | <kuribas> | :t bifold |
| 18:09:18 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 18:09:18 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: bifold |
| 18:09:18 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant one of these: |
| 18:09:25 | <kuribas> | @hoogle bifold |
| 18:09:26 | <lambdabot> | Data.Bifoldable bifold :: (Bifoldable p, Monoid m) => p m m -> m |
| 18:09:26 | <lambdabot> | RIO.Prelude bifold :: (Bifoldable p, Monoid m) => p m m -> m |
| 18:09:26 | <lambdabot> | Relude.Foldable.Reexport bifold :: (Bifoldable p, Monoid m) => p m m -> m |
| 18:11:58 | <slack1256> | geekosaur: Oh, that is a equivalent signal! |
| 18:12:23 | <slack1256> | Well, it would be if `--allow-newer` was the default |
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| 18:16:36 | <EvanR> | heh, instance Bifoldable BiList |
| 18:17:44 | <EvanR> | the way they accomplish your zip map thing is with AppEndo monoid |
| 18:18:25 | <dsal> | monochrom: what's that thing you say about brains and memoization? I asked lambdabot but it wasn't helpful. |
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| 18:19:51 | <monochrom> | Memoized randomization. You form an opinion randomly, then remember that you stand by that opinion. |
| 18:20:08 | <dsal> | It's Oh yes! |
| 18:20:28 | <dsal> | Thanks. :) |
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| 18:22:51 | <EvanR> | gotta clear the opinion cache or it gets out of date |
| 18:23:12 | <dsal> | I try pretty hard not to remember things when I can avoid it. |
| 18:23:13 | <geekosaur> | if only that worked |
| 18:23:29 | <[exa]> | flush the cache with quality fermented contents. |
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| 18:24:19 | <monochrom> | My observation is that humans don't tend to update their opinions over time. |
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| 18:26:13 | <dsal> | You mean your persistent opinion is that humans don't tend to update their opinions over time. |
| 18:26:21 | <monochrom> | haha |
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| 18:26:55 | <dsal> | People do tend to back-rationalize just about anything, though. |
| 18:27:09 | <dsal> | If I prove you wrong, you just disagree for a different reason. |
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| 18:27:37 | <monochrom> | This is known as creativity! |
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| 18:30:54 | <monochrom> | Today I saw a conference announcement on the haskell mailing list, the MSFP one, and the phrase "[where would] call-by-push-values [be] without adjunctions?" caught my attention. |
| 18:31:34 | <monochrom> | So I Googled call-by-push-values and eventually found the PhD thesis that started it: https://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~pbl/papers/thesisqmwphd.pdf |
| 18:31:37 | <EvanR> | call by push value ... |
| 18:32:00 | <monochrom> | That is going to be a very deep rabbit hole... |
| 18:32:43 | <int-e> | just don't drink from labelled bottles |
| 18:33:08 | <int-e> | (stick to the mushrooms instead) |
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| 18:33:37 | <dsal> | int-e: ++ |
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| 18:33:59 | <monochrom> | I don't understnad. |
| 18:34:29 | <EvanR> | 🍄 1UP |
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| 18:35:18 | <int-e> | Oh you should read Charles Dogson's thesis on rabbit holes then. |
| 18:35:19 | <geekosaur> | was thinking lewis carroll vs. mario… |
| 18:35:44 | <int-e> | geekosaur: There's a mushroom in Alice in Wonderland too. |
| 18:36:02 | <int-e> | I think. I may be mixing up the books, there are several and it's been a while. |
| 18:36:11 | <geekosaur> | yes, I know, but they weren't so different from the bottles |
| 18:36:32 | <int-e> | geekosaur: We *were* discussing opinions. |
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| 18:36:36 | <int-e> | :) |
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| 18:37:52 | <int-e> | geekosaur: I have no problem with the Mario association... it just didn't occur to me. |
| 18:38:30 | <geekosaur> | I was kinda riffing on EvanR and thinking you leap out of the hole for the mushrooms |
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| 18:39:08 | <geekosaur> | so kinda mishmashing my references a bit :) |
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| 18:39:40 | <EvanR> | so my emoji made it through the transporter beam in one piece |
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| 19:33:59 | <dsal> | I realize I don't *really* understand record syntax. What's the best way to fix htat? |
| 19:34:12 | <dsal> | e.g., it didn't even occur to me it could change types. |
| 19:34:22 | <geekosaur> | the modern way seems to be "don't use it" :þ |
| 19:34:59 | <dsal> | I'm not actually, but apparently $> confuses people. |
| 19:35:29 | <dsal> | And lens is generally banned, so if already don't like me using *sigh* a type variable, then saying "let's just use lens" is probably not going to help. |
| 19:35:37 | <Rembane_> | dsal: This makes me curious. What's the main stumbling block to use $>? |
| 19:35:52 | <monochrom> | I think you now understand record syntax. That's the last piece you were missing. |
| 19:36:03 | <EvanR> | you have a haskell job and lens is banned? interesting |
| 19:36:06 | <dsal> | Rembane_: I'm just assigning a value to a field. |
| 19:36:24 | <monochrom> | Although, I can't connect record syntax with $> |
| 19:36:37 | <Rembane_> | dsal: And your coworkers go bananas? |
| 19:36:51 | <dsal> | x $> v could be x { field = v } |
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| 19:37:13 | <Cale> | There's another thing which may be surprising: you can use patterns of the form (K {}) to match a constructor with zero or more fields even if your type was not defined using record syntax |
| 19:37:14 | <dsal> | I don't disagree with that one. It just never even occurred to me to use record syntax here. |
| 19:37:21 | <geekosaur> | Rembane_: weird senior programmer who thinks most idiomatic haskell is "too hard" |
| 19:37:53 | <dsal> | geekosaur: I have two kinds. The weird senior guy and the weird junior guy. This one is the latter. |
| 19:38:09 | <monochrom> | "bananas" is exactly right |
| 19:38:13 | <Rembane_> | That there are two must make it all much more ... interesting. |
| 19:38:30 | <dsal> | It's a thing that all of us have to use and his thing is *super* hard to use. I made it super easy to use, but the implementation complexity isn't worth it. (I reduced complexity considerably) |
| 19:40:10 | <tomsmeding> | dsal: by now you've probably figured that out, but I think semantically, for `data K a b c = K a b c`, the record update function `\x -> K { b = x }` is semantically equivalent to the function 'foo x (K a _ c) = K a x c`, with its appropriate most general type |
| 19:40:18 | <tomsmeding> | which, here, allows changing a type parameter |
| 19:40:28 | <tomsmeding> | generalise as appropriate to other data type definitions :p |
| 19:40:47 | <tomsmeding> | oh, 'data K a b c = K { a :: a, b :: b, c :: c }' of course |
| 19:41:21 | <monochrom> | I was surprised when I learned this a long time ago, too. But it is retrospectively natural since it is a syntax sugar. |
| 19:41:23 | <dsal> | tomsmeding: Yeah. It's weird that it just never occurred to me that I could do it that way. I thought "I've got a type variable, so this is a functor" and went down that path. |
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| 19:41:43 | <tomsmeding> | dsal: yeah, I would've done the same :p |
| 19:42:22 | <dsal> | The junior guy asked why I didn't do the record thing and I was like, "That's not the same!" then realized I'm probably dumb and checked. Of course it's the same. If I were writing a lens, that's exactly what I'd do. |
| 19:42:33 | <EvanR> | functors everywhere |
| 19:42:37 | <Cale> | It can be good for code readability to have a chance to say which field is being updated |
| 19:43:10 | <dsal> | Just gonna newtype the hell out of this thing so I can have a functor for every field and coerce for my <$> |
| 19:43:15 | <monochrom> | Bah these days it's adjoint functors everywhere for me. |
| 19:43:15 | <Cale> | I like <$ quite a bit most of the time, but there have been times when it has obscured what should have been an obvious bug |
| 19:43:39 | <dsal> | Yeah, I think the field update thing is actually the right thing here. |
| 19:44:00 | <monochrom> | The "field update" mental model is pretty universal. |
| 19:44:03 | <dsal> | There's also the "What if we have more of these!" which I rejected a couple of times. mu. But that argument also goes away. |
| 19:44:41 | <dsal> | My brain just changed shape s lightly to think of field update as also changing the type since I've never actually held those two concepts near each other. |
| 19:45:20 | <monochrom> | That one is a surprise. Don't blame yourself. :) |
| 19:45:54 | <monochrom> | Also it usually doesn't hurt, even when you aren't aware of it. |
| 19:46:07 | <dsal> | Nah, I love finding out I'm wrong about stuff. I sit around wondering what I'm wrong about and just not knowing most of the time. |
| 19:46:41 | <monochrom> | Ah. Did you know that Earth rotation is slowing down? >:) |
| 19:47:48 | <dsal> | I knew of that at the listicle level. I watch lots of YouTube channels that make me feel like I know about things. |
| 19:48:03 | <dsal> | (about is the keyword there) |
| 19:48:51 | <monochrom> | Ah. Have you watched the recent Veritasium video that explains how electric energy is transferred, and it is not exactly via current or even the cable? >:) |
| 19:49:43 | <EvanR> | god I hate that video |
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| 19:50:14 | <EvanR> | I'm waiting for his follow up where he apologizes and clarifies |
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| 19:50:24 | <dsal> | I... played that video. I didn't follow it very closely, though. |
| 19:50:43 | <monochrom> | ObHaskell: Did you know that GHC compiles "if null xs then foo else bar (head xs) (tail xs)" to "case xs of [] -> foo; x:xt -> bar x xt" so it is "OK"? >:) |
| 19:50:55 | <dsal> | I build radio stuff and do various electronics junk, but I don't pretend to understand how EM stuff works. |
| 19:51:27 | <monochrom> | Sounds about right for the sterotypical programmer >:) |
| 19:51:31 | <EvanR> | physics is full of stories |
| 19:52:04 | <monochrom> | Err no, sounds about the opposite. |
| 19:52:31 | <monochrom> | The stereotypical programmer does pretend they understand. >:) |
| 19:52:33 | <tomsmeding> | typical for stereo people? |
| 19:53:19 | <dsal> | I back and forth between pretending I understand and accepting I don't. Haskell has a lot of great abstractions that can be used pretty well without understanding them. |
| 19:53:41 | <dsal> | i.e., lazy understanding. I'll eventually force the understanding after I've been using this abstraction for a bit. |
| 19:54:32 | <monochrom> | Haha stereo people. There is a Chinese proverb, "the government official has two mouths", to express that the government official can decree whatever they want and thus wins all arguments. That would be stereo people. |
| 19:55:38 | <monochrom> | It concides with the character 官 for officials containing two mouth parts (the two squares). |
| 19:56:14 | <tomsmeding> | heh nice |
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| 19:59:37 | <janus> | EvanR: what's wrong with the video? |
| 20:00:06 | <EvanR> | we have to wait for his follow up to find out |
| 20:00:17 | <EvanR> | was the whole thing |
| 20:01:48 | <janus> | at the end he recognizes that it is controversial to explain |
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| 20:03:06 | <int-e> | monochrom: "did you know" -- I'd expect that (inline null, head, tail, and elide the redundant case matches) but never checked whether it gets them all :P |
| 20:03:31 | <Cale> | The main thing which is misleading about it, I think, is that none of the magnitudes of the vectors are being considered, and we're being asked an idealised question using a lightbulb that will light instantly with any amount of power being delivered |
| 20:04:15 | <Cale> | Some amount of power will doubtless be delivered in 1m/c seconds, but how much is a good question. |
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| 20:05:26 | <monochrom> | int-e: I wrote an article touching on null-head-tail, so I have a motive to actually check. :) |
| 20:05:40 | <monochrom> | To be sure, I am a rare writer. Most writers don't want to check. |
| 20:07:14 | <EvanR> | yeah I had to fill in the 1 "meter" over c myself xD |
| 20:07:45 | <int-e> | monochrom: right, and you can't really know without checking |
| 20:07:47 | <monochrom> | Oh yeah, that one I looked at "1/c" and thought "wrong unit, discarded". |
| 20:08:10 | <int-e> | even if you have a good reason to believe that ghc will elide all the redundant checks :) |
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| 20:11:05 | <Cale> | But there ought to be a not insubstantial fraction of the power... not at 1m/c seconds, but slightly afterward. You pretty quickly get a situation that effectively has antennas attached to the ends of the battery, and as the fields from those antennas propagate across, you'll get some amount of power being delivered. Not sure it'll be enough to light an incandescent bulb though. |
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| 20:13:13 | <monochrom> | Did you also read the slides linked in the description? There you have two physicists specializing in EM or power transmission doing the detailed modeling. There are graphs show that they predict that the power level increases slowly, as you expect. |
| 20:13:28 | <EvanR> | there will be like an evanescent wave between the transmission lines |
| 20:14:13 | <Cale> | I haven't, and I also haven't really done the calculations to know what any of the magnitudes are... this is just my intuition about what will happen. |
| 20:14:30 | <monochrom> | And there is even a wacky scenerio in which there is an overshoot. |
| 20:16:06 | <Cale> | Well, from another perspective it's like a tiny (but expanding... and eventually shorting out) capacitor being attached to a DC source, so seeing a spike seems to make some sense |
| 20:17:02 | <monochrom> | Ah the capacitor view is nice. |
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| 20:19:01 | <Sqaure> | Im mostly using Nix for my projects lately. I would want to start using Haskell for scripting more. How do you install haskel for scripting? Im feeling a complete, per script, download of libraries and ghc feels a bit savy. Also would be neat to avoid that first "setup". But then again, global install of ghc + libs might lead to old cabal life?! Any smart trick around this? |
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| 20:19:38 | <dsal> | If you're using nix, then nix can manage your ghcs and stuff. |
| 20:19:58 | <Cale> | Sqaure: Well, you'll end up with GHC and all the related libraries in your nix store after first use, so as long as you're not often switching, it's a one-time cost. |
| 20:20:01 | <dsal> | I just use haskell.nix for a project. Nothing I'd consider a "script" (I just make a new stack project when I want to do a thing), but I'm curious how stack scripts and nix work together. |
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| 20:20:29 | <Sqaure> | Ah ok. So you encourage Nix for scripting. Makes sense. |
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| 20:20:51 | <Cale> | I have this: nix-shell -p "(import <nixpkgs> {}).haskell.packages.ghc884.ghcWithPackages (pkgs: with pkgs; [ $* ])" |
| 20:21:08 | <Cale> | in a file called "ghcWithPackages" marked executable in my ~/bin |
| 20:21:30 | <Cale> | and then for quick things, I'll just use that to get an environment having whatever packages I want |
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| 20:22:46 | <Cale> | Note that you can choose which version of GHC it defaults to. I just have it set to what we use at work right now, but occasionally I'll adjust that e.g. to help someone with a problem they're having on a different ghc |
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| 20:27:36 | <Sqaure> | Cale, so imagine you use ghcWithPackages as your shebang? How do you write the actual script code? |
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| 20:29:18 | <Cale> | Sqaure: I never use this as a shebang, but it puts you in a bash shell |
| 20:29:38 | <Cale> | in which you have the appropriate GHC to run Haskell scripts |
| 20:30:51 | <Sqaure> | So then you just do Main.hs and run it from that the shell? cabal new-run ... ? |
| 20:31:00 | <Sqaure> | -the* |
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| 20:31:31 | <Cale> | Just ghc/ghci whatever or runghc I suppose (though I don't really use that much) |
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| 20:32:16 | <Cale> | Whatever packages you specified will already be installed, so cabal is somewhat unnecessary, but you can use it also if you like. |
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| 20:33:15 | <Sqaure> | Ive got little experience working with ghc alone |
| 20:33:49 | <Sqaure> | i guess i need to learn |
| 20:33:58 | <dsal> | I think I wrote a stack script once, but it didn't end up making any sense in the long term. |
| 20:34:57 | <Sqaure> | seems to work great |
| 20:36:12 | <Sqaure> | whenever i do small ad-hoc / data-mangling jobs i do some sloppy bash and then realize id be better of with haskell. And that happens quite often |
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| 20:37:26 | <EvanR> | the import list is often 5 times the size of your script xD |
| 20:37:36 | <dsal> | And then you need to make sure those libraries are available. |
| 20:37:48 | <dsal> | And somewhat stable the next time you run your script. |
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| 20:54:46 | <sm> | Sqaure: i use stack scripts a lot |
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| 20:56:07 | <sm> | I have found they aren't always justified though, and I am using bash more than ever |
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| 21:05:08 | <janus> | sm: what your opinion on the oil shell? |
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| 21:06:18 | <sm> | i have not tried it yet, |
| 21:06:18 | <sm> | but I'm a big fan of the writing and work |
| 21:06:27 | <sm> | how about you ? |
| 21:07:36 | <janus> | havn't tried it, trying to find someone with an opinion on it :P |
| 21:07:58 | <sm> | its good , you should try it :) |
| 21:08:11 | <dsal> | I've heard of Shell Oil, but not oil shell. |
| 21:08:54 | <sm> | but are we talking about the project generally, or the bash-replacing osh language, or the more forward-looking oil language ? |
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| 21:10:22 | <janus> | i guess all of it, since you'll need all of it to replace bash? |
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| 21:11:08 | <sm> | no, the osh language is enough |
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| 21:11:44 | <hololeap> | I'm getting this when I try to run `./setup copy` for the integer-gmp package: |
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| 21:11:49 | <hololeap> | setup: can't find include file ghc-gmp.h |
| 21:11:56 | <sm> | I saw recently there's a serious discussion in nix of switching to osh |
| 21:12:10 | <hololeap> | it's referenced in integer-gmp.buildinfo.in ; what kind of file is this? |
| 21:12:42 | <geekosaur> | .in file is input to autoconf |
| 21:13:13 | <geekosaur> | which will generate integer-gmp.buildinfo which is used by Cabal build infrastructure |
| 21:13:34 | <hololeap> | oh ok |
| 21:13:35 | <geekosaur> | (and is normally generated by Setup.hs configure) |
| 21:15:22 | <hololeap> | I never learned how to use autoconf, but this should be an easy fix. thanks |
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| 21:17:48 | <maerwald> | autoconf is a beauty of constantly changing macros |
| 21:18:20 | <geekosaur> | actually I'm wondering if it's being used by setup configure instead of autoconf |
| 21:18:41 | <geekosaur> | or cabal run-as-setup configure |
| 21:18:51 | <maerwald> | The only people who learn autoconf usually satisfy all of these constraints: 1. you love pain, 2. you love pain, 3. you're a student and have too much time, 4. you love obscure bash, 5. you enjoy complexity |
| 21:19:06 | <unit73e> | I was here thinking, is haskell jersey or mit style? as in "worse is better" or "the right thing". It's kind of both imo. |
| 21:19:34 | <unit73e> | certainly simple enough but tries to be correct |
| 21:19:42 | <hololeap> | maerwald: sounds fun |
| 21:19:58 | <hololeap> | I knew I avoided it for a reason |
| 21:20:12 | <sm> | I'd say more the right thing style at the core, for sure |
| 21:20:33 | <unit73e> | btw maven is a million times better than autoconf and maven is kind of crappy |
| 21:20:38 | <maerwald> | hololeap: you've watched one of those "slap contest" things on youtube? autoconf is like that |
| 21:20:48 | <sm> | devolving to worse is better at the edges ? |
| 21:21:37 | <unit73e> | if you compare to scala it's a lot more unnecessarily complex, for example |
| 21:21:39 | <sm> | ps can you link that paper/article for us |
| 21:22:19 | <unit73e> | even in scala channel they agree lol |
| 21:26:16 | <maerwald> | compare anything to scala and you come to the conclusion: ok, that was unnecessarily complex |
| 21:26:33 | <sm> | for anyone wondering: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worse_is_better, well worth reading the original articles linked there |
| 21:28:05 | <int-e> | oh the perils of multi-objective optimization |
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| 21:30:18 | <unit73e> | scala is for java devs is what C++ was to C guys. I still find C++ unnecessarely complex, but I don't think neither scala or C++ are bad. It's like that because legacy support. |
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| 21:40:48 | <Sqaure> | i found scala before haskell and did some years of that. Once i got to know haskell my scala interest disappeared completely. Around 2013/2014 scala had so many weird quirks. Haskell felt more consistent, simpler and clear. Once i got over the lazy eval / monadic IO part. |
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| 21:42:33 | <janus> | Sqaure: i read it has gotten a lot better with scala 3 though |
| 21:43:52 | <Sqaure> | glad to hear. JVM needs that. |
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| 22:01:02 | <RobotMicrowave> | Wow, a lot of hackers here, many l33t speak users. |
| 22:01:19 | <Cajun> | scala has always seemed weird to me, i still dont entirely get the point of mixed functional langauges |
| 22:01:26 | <Cajun> | like F# or Scala |
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| 22:04:13 | <zero> | some people don't get the point of purely functional programming languages too so... |
| 22:04:44 | <zero> | i guesss it's good we have a choice |
| 22:07:36 | <EvanR> | haven't used F#, but I can imagine hoping something haskell-like would invade my horrible day to day language |
| 22:08:19 | <EvanR> | sometimes it would be nice if an imperative DSL could invade haskell, without making a mess that is |
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| 22:15:02 | <arahael> | Cajun: i find that mixed languages get this weird situation where you have OOP design mixed in with a functional design. especially when using code smells that are very much OOP in nature (eg, "everything has an interface") |
| 22:15:25 | <arahael> | Cajun: and devs keep trying to apply OOP good practices such as data hiding. |
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| 22:23:36 | <RobotMicrowave> | Rust is a good example of "lets glue all of this together but with a little of OO" |
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| 22:25:37 | <Cajun> | i dont like the names of things in rust just from hearing about it (like crates or whatever it is) |
| 22:25:52 | <Cajun> | but the language seems very cool |
| 22:28:30 | <dolio> | Yeah, what do 'cargo' and 'crate' have to do with rust? It's not even a related pun. |
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| 22:28:59 | <dolio> | That's the true tragedy of epigram never coming to fruition. |
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| 22:55:48 | <jackdk> | What is this "epigram"? I can only find oblique references to it in the lens haddocks |
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| 23:00:53 | <dibblego> | jackdk: http://www.e-pig.org/ |
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| 23:11:39 | <[itchyjunk]> | I am now back where I left. I have partially figured out out, and the only issue is the last digit! |
| 23:12:02 | <[itchyjunk]> | g (f 1247) |
| 23:12:02 | <[itchyjunk]> | [7,4,2] |
| 23:12:34 | <[itchyjunk]> | idk how to adjoin the 1 to "the same list" |
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| 23:12:44 | <[itchyjunk]> | @where paste |
| 23:12:44 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
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| 23:18:08 | <monochrom> | g (f 1247) ++ [1] ? |
| 23:19:57 | <monochrom> | I wonder if you're just missing how to design recursive algorithms, which is covered in my course notes: http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~trebla/CSCC24-2021-Summer/01-haskell-basic.html#synev |
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| 23:21:33 | <monochrom> | I wonder if you're just missing how to design recursive algorithms, which is covered in my course notes: http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~trebla/CSCC24-2021-Summer/01-haskell-basic.html#synev |
| 23:21:39 | <[itchyjunk]> | Sorry, crappy computer. |
| 23:21:41 | <[itchyjunk]> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Sb6IPzLM |
| 23:22:13 | <[itchyjunk]> | In the case of (0,y), i wanted to adjoin y to the list the other case was working on, if that makes sense |
| 23:22:26 | <monochrom> | Why is it not "g (0,y) = [y]" very simply? |
| 23:23:02 | <monochrom> | And see my course notes mentioned above for creating recursive algorithms generally. |
| 23:23:09 | <[itchyjunk]> | that works /o\ idk why it works |
| 23:23:27 | <[itchyjunk]> | ah that link was for me, okay will check out now |
| 23:23:30 | <RobotMicrowave> | I have a question. Is it possible to recreate the IO monad? Like, making a custom IO monad and substitute the STD? |
| 23:23:48 | <RobotMicrowave> | The main would still be IO (), of course |
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| 23:24:03 | <int-e> | > 1247 `divMod` 10 |
| 23:24:04 | <lambdabot> | (124,7) |
| 23:24:05 | <monochrom> | No, IO has to be provided by the compiler/interpreter, it is not user-definable in Haskell. |
| 23:24:08 | <RobotMicrowave> | Rephrasing: "Is the IO monad special to the compiler?" |
| 23:24:09 | <int-e> | > 1 `divMod` 10 |
| 23:24:11 | <lambdabot> | (0,1) |
| 23:24:18 | <monochrom> | Yes it has to be special. |
| 23:24:20 | <dibblego> | not the monad, the data type |
| 23:24:32 | <c_wraith> | RobotMicrowave: the monad instance is totally normal. the data type is special |
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| 23:24:40 | <RobotMicrowave> | Damn! I've lost 1 week trying to implement my own IO |
| 23:24:51 | <RobotMicrowave> | >:( |
| 23:24:53 | <monochrom> | Well if the type is special then the monad instance is special too. |
| 23:24:57 | <int-e> | [itchyjunk]: so if you can't figure out for input 1247, maybe try figuring out what happens for 1. |
| 23:25:08 | <c_wraith> | RobotMicrowave: it's best to erase the phrase "IO monad" from your lexicon. It makes you think the wrong thing is special. |
| 23:25:17 | <c_wraith> | RobotMicrowave: IO is special. Monad is just normal haskell. |
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| 23:26:53 | <RobotMicrowave> | ok |
| 23:26:53 | <monochrom> | Anyway, if someone says "I want to use your algorithm to compute the digits of 4" then it's g (f 4) = g (0, 4) and "clearly" the desired answer is [4] so why not g (0, 4) = [4] as a base case. |
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| 23:28:02 | srk_ | is now known as srk |
| 23:28:37 | <monochrom> | This is why I advocate that beginners should think algebra not control flow. |
| 23:29:01 | <monochrom> | In algebra, if the correct answer is sin(x+y), you write "sin(x+y)". THE END. |
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| 23:29:13 | <[itchyjunk]> | for input 1, i want g ( f 1) to return [1] |
| 23:29:28 | <[itchyjunk]> | ah, i guess g (0,y) = [y] comes from the base case itself |
| 23:29:44 | <dibblego> | think algebra |
| 23:29:51 | <monochrom> | None of those "how do I initialize a variable to x then add y then sin it" control flow thinking. |
| 23:30:54 | <monochrom> | I mean, if you were in an assembly language course, sure. |
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| 23:31:23 | <int-e> | now... do we want the digits of 0 to be [0] or []... |
| 23:31:28 | <[itchyjunk]> | Yes, i like this approach (i think). has the sideeffect to teaching me Coq along the way maybe :D |
| 23:31:34 | <int-e> | that's what would keep me up at night |
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| 23:32:03 | <EvanR> | humanity bumbled to this point for a long time thinking the digits of 0 are [] |
| 23:32:07 | <[itchyjunk]> | i think I would? 01 = [0,1] seems okay |
| 23:32:20 | <[itchyjunk]> | oh |
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| 23:37:42 | <arahael> | I've attempted to use a cabal.project to override a hackage package, with the following line: packages: *.cabal ../foundation/basement/*.cabal |
| 23:37:55 | <arahael> | However, when I rebuild my project, it still seems to use hackage's basement and not the local one I've checked out? |
| 23:38:05 | <arahael> | (That's the entire contents fo my cabal.project) |
| 23:40:11 | <dsal> | "I'm more in favor of following the standard." "What's 'the standard'?" [links to his own code which he defines as a standard] |
| 23:40:25 | <RobotMicrowave> | At least i learned haskell, I've failed to make my own IO because it was impossible. But it was fun |
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| 23:40:49 | <geekosaur> | dsal, that place is a trainwreck. bail. |
| 23:41:01 | <c_wraith> | you can make your own IO-like thing that happens to use IO behind the scenes |
| 23:41:19 | <monochrom> | I use recursion to define iteration. |
| 23:41:30 | <monochrom> | I use iteration to define recursion, too. >:) |
| 23:42:05 | <monochrom> | But Kleene trumped me. He used minimization to define recursion. |
| 23:42:21 | <int-e> | [itchyjunk]: well your g (f 0) produces [0] and the question is... is that the behavior you want or not? |
| 23:42:46 | <monochrom> | But Church trumped him. Church used untyped lambda calculus to get it all. |
| 23:42:56 | <[itchyjunk]> | It was till you questioned about him.. Now I have no idea @_@ |
| 23:43:01 | <int-e> | [itchyjunk]: assuming you fixed it by defining g (0,y) = [y] |
| 23:43:08 | <[itchyjunk]> | not him, it! |
| 23:43:17 | <[itchyjunk]> | Yes, i did that |
| 23:43:22 | <monochrom> | I think [0] is acceptable. |
| 23:43:57 | <int-e> | well, we're lacking a specification |
| 23:44:30 | <monochrom> | If you know who will be judging the correctness of your code, ask them. |
| 23:44:43 | <[itchyjunk]> | ah, god.. |
| 23:44:54 | <monochrom> | If you don't know... why are you in this programming business in the first place?! |
| 23:45:17 | <[itchyjunk]> | I was trying to learn some math at somepoint and one thing lead to another |
| 23:45:39 | <monochrom> | OK so you are the judge, so you decide. |
| 23:46:35 | <monochrom> | All conventions and standards are made by humans. You may as well be one such human for once. |
| 23:47:02 | × | Jing quits (~hedgehog@2604:a840:3::105f) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:47:09 | [itchyjunk] | looks at int-e for judgement |
| 23:47:35 | <int-e> | way to shirk responsibility |
| 23:47:43 | int-e | disapproves |
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| 23:47:58 | → | burnsidesLlama joins (~burnsides@dhcp168-032.wadham.ox.ac.uk) |
| 23:47:59 | <jackdk> | a mathematically-literate colleague of mine once seriously entertained someone's "okay, let's say 1=2" quip by working through the consequences |
| 23:48:13 | × | raehik1 quits (~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 23:48:34 | <geekosaur> | isn't that the zero ring? |
| 23:48:49 | <monochrom> | Does it mean writing a PhD thesis on the zero ring? >:) |
| 23:49:09 | <jackdk> | quite possibly. any part of my maths education that couldn't be translated into typeclasses has rusted away |
| 23:49:19 | <int-e> | geekosaur: hey maybe it's just a semiring |
| 23:49:33 | × | wagle quits (~wagle@quassel.wagle.io) (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) |
| 23:49:44 | <Axma59590> | jackdk: surely it's the opposite of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfP8dx2TdEM |
| 23:50:08 | → | wagle joins (~wagle@quassel.wagle.io) |
| 23:50:20 | <monochrom> | Oh hey there is an xkcd for that, too! |
| 23:50:39 | <monochrom> | https://xkcd.com/816/ |
| 23:51:06 | <Axma59590> | Classic |
| 23:51:10 | Axma59590 | is now known as Axman6 |
| 23:51:15 | <monochrom> | The hover line is golden. |
| 23:51:15 | <Axman6> | oh my |
| 23:51:18 | <jackdk> | Axma59590: Who are you and what did you do with the real Axman6? |
| 23:51:27 | <jackdk> | Axman5.99999999 |
| 23:51:47 | <Axman6> | interest rates man |
| 23:51:49 | <monochrom> | jackdk: The point is that 59590=6 so it's OK! |
| 23:52:11 | <jackdk> | monochrom: This is what happens when I IRC on one cup of tea. Time to fix that. |
| 23:52:17 | <Axman6> | I invested my 6 in bitcoin, it went up two ordered of magnitude, but when I cashed out it dropped and I broke even |
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| 23:52:54 | <Axman6> | orders* |
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All times are in UTC on 2021-11-24.