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Logs on 2021-11-28 (liberachat/#haskell)

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02:05:23 <ozzloy> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/aiY7KeGt i want to take the length of a list, divide by 2, and see if the result is less than another number
02:05:59 <ozzloy> > length [1,2] / 2 < 3
02:06:00 <lambdabot> error:
02:06:00 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Fractional Int) arising from a use of ‘/’
02:06:00 <lambdabot> • In the first argument of ‘(<)’, namely ‘length [1, 2] / 2’
02:06:31 <ozzloy> > 2 / 2
02:06:33 <lambdabot> 1.0
02:06:40 <ozzloy> > 1.0 < 3
02:06:42 <lambdabot> True
02:07:04 <ozzloy> > length [1,2] / 2
02:07:06 <lambdabot> error:
02:07:06 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Fractional Int) arising from a use of ‘/’
02:07:06 <lambdabot> • In the expression: length [1, 2] / 2
02:07:49 <EvanR> there's / and there's `div`
02:08:07 <EvanR> > 22 / 7 -- float division
02:08:09 <lambdabot> 3.142857142857143
02:08:18 <EvanR> > 22 `div` 7 -- integer division
02:08:19 <lambdabot> 3
02:08:23 <ozzloy> > length [1,2]
02:08:24 <lambdabot> 2
02:08:27 <ozzloy> > 2 / 2
02:08:29 <lambdabot> 1.0
02:08:39 <EvanR> when you use / on literals they default to Double
02:08:48 <EvanR> you can't use it on Ints
02:09:10 <ozzloy> i see
02:09:14 <EvanR> > length [1,2] `div` 2
02:09:15 <lambdabot> 1
02:09:18 <EvanR> > length [1,2,3] `div` 2
02:09:19 <lambdabot> 1
02:10:15 <ozzloy> so length gives back an integer, and '/' doesn't work on integers
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02:10:21 <EvanR> pretty much
02:10:46 <EvanR> unless you convert them to float first
02:10:47 <ozzloy> i feel like it would be clearer if 2 / 2 also gave a type error
02:10:57 <EvanR> heh
02:11:29 <ozzloy> because as it stands, length [1,2] -> 2, and 2 / 2 works, but length [1,2] / 2 doesn't
02:11:35 <EvanR> it's funny defaulting rules are probably there so beginners aren't so frustrated?
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02:12:02 <EvanR> trying stuff on the terminal like we are doing xD
02:12:21 <ozzloy> it sure looks like substitution doesn't work in this instance, you can't replace an expression with something that reduces to it
02:12:37 <EvanR> it doesn't work, until you remember that numeric literals have additional magic
02:12:42 <ozzloy> go hard, or go home
02:12:44 <EvanR> 2 isn't just 2
02:12:58 <EvanR> it's a polymorphic value that depends on the results of type inference / checking
02:13:07 <ozzloy> if you're going to go hard on types, go all the way
02:13:12 <EvanR> :t 2
02:13:13 <lambdabot> Num p => p
02:13:30 <EvanR> so when you use it with /, it's not obviously a type error
02:13:37 <EvanR> it depends on p
02:13:59 <ozzloy> > div 3 2
02:14:00 <EvanR> when you use it with length [1,2] :: Int, definitely a type error
02:14:01 <lambdabot> 1
02:14:10 <ozzloy> > div -3 -2
02:14:11 <lambdabot> error:
02:14:11 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Num (Integer -> Integer -> Integer))
02:14:11 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘e_132’
02:14:17 <EvanR> > div (-3) (-2)
02:14:18 <lambdabot> 1
02:14:36 <ozzloy> > div (-3) 2
02:14:38 <lambdabot> -2
02:14:44 <EvanR> > quot (-3) (-2)
02:14:45 <lambdabot> 1
02:14:58 <boxscape_> % :set -XLexicalNegation
02:14:58 <yahb> boxscape_:
02:14:59 <ozzloy> so div rounds towards negative infinity?
02:15:01 <EvanR> > quot (-3) 2
02:15:03 <lambdabot> -1
02:15:06 <boxscape_> % quot -3 -2
02:15:06 <yahb> boxscape_: 1
02:15:58 <EvanR> > divMod (-3) 2
02:15:59 <lambdabot> (-2,1)
02:16:01 <ozzloy> well, in this case, div will do
02:16:04 <EvanR> > quotRem (-3) 2
02:16:05 <lambdabot> (-1,-1)
02:16:20 <EvanR> they do the same thing if both arguments are positive
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02:21:55 <EvanR> ozzloy, you're going to hate this extension that lets you use "string literals" in the same way as number literals, they can be interpreted by a type class to become whatever value xD
02:22:28 <EvanR> can be handy, and abuse xD
02:22:34 <EvanR> d
02:22:45 <ozzloy> heh
02:22:58 <boxscape_> we've got the same thing for lists, too!
02:23:04 <ozzloy> i am impressed and horrified
02:24:57 <ozzloy> makes me think of #define i (rand() % i) from c
02:25:00 <dsal> The list can lead to excitement.
02:25:34 <ozzloy> that'll teach you to use single letter variables for iteration
02:25:55 <EvanR> but single letter variables are awesome :'(
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02:26:53 <ozzloy> so, ok, it's implemented in a principled way
02:27:13 <ozzloy> it's not a special hack for integers to sometimes be autoconverted to doubles
02:28:17 <boxscape_> yeah implicit conversions aren't a thing in Haskell
02:28:25 <dsal> No, you generally know what type you're dealing with.
02:28:54 <ozzloy> well, maybe not me specifically, but someone well versed enough
02:29:16 <EvanR> if you don't know what type you're dealing with, stop immediately
02:29:26 <ozzloy> there are rules that can be learned that aren't just "except in that case, because."
02:29:32 <boxscape_> the neat thing is you can usually tell what type you're dealing with by asking the compiler
02:29:47 <boxscape_> > map ((+1) :: _) [1..5]
02:29:49 <lambdabot> [2,3,4,5,6]
02:29:57 <boxscape_> I expected it to tell me the type :(
02:30:01 <dsal> Haha
02:30:06 <boxscape_> % map ((+1) :: _) [1..5]
02:30:06 <yahb> boxscape_: ; <interactive>:25:14: error:; * Found type wildcard `_' standing for `b -> b'; Where: `b' is a rigid type variable bound by; the inferred type of it :: (Enum b, Num b) => [b]; at <interactive>:25:1-22; To use the inferred type, enable PartialTypeSignatures; * In an expression type signature: _; In the first argument of `map', namely `((+ 1) :: _)';
02:30:08 <dsal> You could try a value hole
02:30:18 <boxscape_> I guess lambdabot has -XPartialTypeSignatures
02:30:53 <ozzloy> "dear compiler, how long has it been since our last conversation. i can barely recall. it is with great excitement that i come to you for help in my time of need, for i am most certain that you will know the answer to my queries...
02:31:27 <boxscape_> There has been some discussion about making compiler messages friendlier and sounding less like it's yelling at you about mistakes :)
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02:31:50 <EvanR> ozzloy, the relevant feature is called "defaults" ... https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/decls.html#sect4.3.4
02:32:09 <EvanR> since its related to ambiguous types, it's worth knowing xD
02:32:16 <EvanR> since that's a common compilation error
02:34:44 <EvanR> the formatting here needs work xD
02:34:51 <ozzloy> i feel like it would be great to have a primer on haskell's types all by itself
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02:36:31 <EvanR> the ahem... default "default" rule appears to be
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02:36:33 <EvanR> default (Integer, Double)
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02:37:13 <EvanR> if Integer works, Integer, else try Double, else give up
02:37:25 <ozzloy> i see
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02:43:19 <ozzloy> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/rh1Fc6SX i have "helper (pieces + 1) xs" in 3 places for the function "repeats" at the bottom
02:43:37 <ozzloy> i feel like it could be better
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02:44:13 <EvanR> as long as helper pieces and xs are referring to the same thing in each place, it can be lifted out
02:44:53 <ozzloy> the goal of repeats is to find the longest subsequence of xs where xs is some positive whole number repeats of that subsequence
02:44:55 <EvanR> I guess, as we just discussed, 1 has to refer to the same kind of 1 in each place xD
02:45:12 <ozzloy> heh
02:45:21 <EvanR> it's your recursion call
02:45:48 <EvanR> you can still lift it out thanks to lazy evaluation xD
02:45:55 <ozzloy> the one on line 79 should never happen
02:46:13 <ozzloy> "lift it out"
02:46:19 <EvanR> if true, you could put error "impossible"
02:47:21 <EvanR> but yeah the function could use some tidying
02:48:19 <EvanR> here's what lifted it out could look like
02:48:23 <EvanR> where
02:48:44 <EvanR> helper pieces xs = let loop = helper (pieces + 1) xs in
02:48:55 <EvanR> (all that other code with loop substituted)
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02:49:25 <EvanR> not saying it's easier to read but it's less repetitive
02:49:32 <ozzloy> i see
02:50:24 <EvanR> oh, you have guards...
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02:56:57 <Square> if i have : class MyClz a where ; type MyType a. How can a function "fkn :: MyClz a => MyType a -> SomeType" be "non injective" regarding MyType. I thought it would defined solely by MyClz a?
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03:04:41 <EvanR> I'm not sure but, MyType could certainly be non injective
03:04:43 <pavonia> Square: "type" is just a type synonym, so different instances could define the same type
03:04:50 <EvanR> ^
03:05:16 <EvanR> MyType a doesn't necessarily lead back to a
03:05:24 <EvanR> only*
03:08:25 <Square> yeah i saw that injectivity definition. f a ∼ f b implies a ∼ b
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03:14:38 <Square> Oh seems TypeFamilyDependencies saved me for now atleast.
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03:44:20 <yin> what does this mean: [__0] rejecting: aoc2021-0.1.0.0 (conflict: requires LexicalNegation)
03:44:23 <yin> ?
03:44:38 <yin> i can't use LexicalNegation?
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03:52:57 <EvanR> maybe your ghc doesn't support it
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03:57:23 <yin> i think that's it
03:58:02 <yin> 8.10.7
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03:59:08 <yushyin> LexicalNegation is since 9.0.1
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04:32:27 <superstar64> How do I debug non-termination? Running this program takes up all my swap.
04:32:36 <superstar64> *system memory and swap.
04:37:55 <EvanR> Well other than profiling fu... you could try to narrow down where in the program is happening by excising 1/2 of the program at a time
04:38:16 <EvanR> where in the program the loop is happening
04:38:35 <EvanR> are you sure its non-termination and not just something very inefficient
04:38:54 <EvanR> (is there any print outs or anything during the loop)
04:41:48 <superstar64> EvanR, I kinda have this problem where running the program makes my system unusable.
04:42:07 <EvanR> so it's using a lot of memory
04:42:39 <EvanR> can you run it and press control C very fast to recover
04:42:55 <EvanR> if so, that's your ticket to starting to bisect search through it
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05:10:18 <yin> if i do readFile "./file" from src/Main.hs inside a cabal project is the path relative to Main.hs or the project's root?
05:13:10 <EvanR> I would guess neither
05:14:39 <EvanR> once the exe is compiled and run, the working directory (which can be changed at runtime) is ...... *gets a book on unix*
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05:17:02 <EvanR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_directory
05:19:14 <EvanR> I actually have no idea what it is by default, but it could be e.g. the current working dir of the user who ran it for example. The cabal project is very unlikely as that will not be on the end users machine
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05:36:00 <yin> i'm trying to set up a cabal project for advent of code where i have a folder "input" with one input file per day. the goal is to have one module per day, each module reading it's own file from that folder
05:37:08 <sclv> typically if you're running an executable, the cwd is whatever directory your terminal happened to be in when you ran it
05:37:36 <sclv> which is usually the top level of the cabal project, but obviously it can be anywhere
05:39:37 <EvanR> so make sure the exe and the user are in that folder
05:40:11 <sclv> well the exe need not be in that folder
05:40:55 <EvanR> it would make it convenient to organize the days and run it
05:41:01 <sclv> like if your exe is in ./dist-newstyle/foo/x/something/foo and you invoke it with that path then that's fine
05:41:17 <sclv> your cwd is still where you invoked it from
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05:41:45 <sclv> alternately just pass the damn thing a path to the desired directory
05:42:04 <EvanR> yeah it is pretty easy to type ./dist-newstyle/build/x86_64-linux/ghc-8.10.7/Nov2021-C-0.1.0.0/x/Nov2021-C/build/Nov2021-C/N^C2021-C
05:42:24 <sclv> it is for me, since its tab-complete, tab complete, tab complete
05:42:25 <EvanR> when did cabal start doing this crap xD
05:42:38 <sclv> and thenceforth its "uparrow"
05:42:39 <EvanR> my autocomplete gets caught up 4 times
05:42:57 <sclv> do you not have an up arrow on your keyboard
05:43:04 <EvanR> I just cabal run usually
05:43:09 <sclv> that works too :-P
05:43:14 <EvanR> so the command is not in my history lol
05:43:31 <sclv> also it prints the path at the end of a build, so its double-click to select, copy, paste
05:43:52 <sclv> or cabal list-bin
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05:46:03 <EvanR> why does it seem like a duplicate build tree under /x/
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05:49:57 <sclv> project structure means we need packages, and subcomponents both
05:50:20 <sclv> i think potentially if we were very careful there's at most one too many directories
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05:51:10 <sclv> but most naive attempts to factor it away have failed -- they look like they work, but eventually two subcomponents or something end up trying to put things in the same directory and name clashes can occur
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05:54:34 <sclv> like i don't recall exactly why you need the additional thing after /build/ but iirc there's some stuff that doesn't go in there but that ends up in /build directly (maybe preprocessor-related?) and if you collapsed the two you could get certain possible clashes
05:55:14 <sclv> arguably what would be nice is if the final artifact was _also_ auto-symlinked to somewhere pleasant high up in the tree
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09:15:14 <arahael> I'm trying to make sense of the new Amazonka 2.0 API, and it's very confusing. How should I make a "Paths"? (Reference: https://github.com/brendanhay/amazonka/blob/aeecded1501510d607082bb9a65aa5086755251f/lib/services/amazonka-cloudfront/gen/Amazonka/CloudFront/Types/Paths.hs )
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09:15:57 <arahael> It seems to suggest that I should use 'newPaths', but the implementation doesn't make sense there... I've got a bunch of paths I want to invalidate, why would I use provide 'nothing'?
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09:19:15 <arahael> I mean, the implementation is: newPaths pQuantity_ = Paths' { items = Prelude.Nothing, quantity = pQuantity_ }
09:19:21 <arahael> That makes no sense, does it?
09:23:13 <jackdk> arahael: general amazonka convention: newFoo makes a "minimal" value of a shape (all required fields provided) and then you use lenses to set the remaining fields
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09:25:09 <jackdk> arahael: https://github.com/brendanhay/amazonka/blob/0ccede621e56fb6f240e4850e205cde82d0e4a4b/examples/src/S3.hs#L129 look at the way `newTagging` is assembled
09:27:25 <arahael> jackdk: Why would the number of items differ from the contents, though? It seems a bit weird.
09:27:54 <arahael> jackdk: So basically I provide the paths twice - firstly in that 'newPaths' to set the count, and then using lenses again to give the actual paths again?
09:28:31 <arahael> jackdk: I'm also getting the impression that, eg in that example, @"tagSet" isn't actually a string?
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09:29:42 <jackdk> arahael: it probably wouldn't - amazonka is generated by parsing service and payload defintions from aws' botocore project
09:30:06 <jackdk> arahael: @"tagSet" is an explicit type application - that's the @ - of a type-level string "tagSet"
09:30:14 <jackdk> arahael: see https://hackage.haskell.org/package/generic-lens
09:31:52 <arahael> Well, that works. I guess I really do need to give generic-lens a proper read now, and figure out what "type-level strings" are.
09:31:55 <arahael> Thanks again :)
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09:32:40 <arahael> I'll rewrite the 'runAWST' using bit another time :) Slow-and-steady... Between nethack games, of course. :)
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09:35:54 <jackdk> arahael: I would probably shove the Env into whatever ReaderT you have lying around, and then write your own wrapper around `send` which feeds the Env to amazonka's send
09:36:42 <arahael> jackdk: That's the thing, I very rarely even use ReaderT - infact, I've barely learnt about MonadTransformers, though I'm aware of the need to do 'liftIO' and the like when I need to get into that.
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09:40:05 <jackdk> arahael: I see. https://github.com/qfpl/applied-fp-course might be a good read for you then, in particular bonus/mtl.md
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09:41:10 <arahael> jackdk: Thanks for the recommendation. :) I'll check it out.
09:42:30 <arahael> Woo, and as a bonus, that's an example of markdown-based literate haskell. I was going to play with that for the Advent of Code!
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09:51:09 <arahael> Hmm, I should probably find some time to do those data61 courses again.
09:51:23 <arahael> (Probably lots I've forgotten or missed)
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13:21:39 <yin> how can I cabal run with command line arguments?
13:22:44 <Franciman> cabal run progname -- arguments
13:22:56 <Franciman> I don't remember if you actually need --
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13:25:03 <yin> ah, i was missing progname
13:25:18 <yin> thanks
13:29:40 <geekosaur> you need -- if it takes options starting with -, otherwise they'll be eaten by cabal
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13:59:00 <albet70> what kleisli arrow is used for?
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14:01:15 <Rembane_> :t (>=>) -- Are you thinking of this one, albet70?
14:01:16 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
14:01:35 <albet70> yes
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14:01:55 <albet70> effect?
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14:07:43 <albet70> >>= is an advanced version of <$> which can do if-else, is >=> an advanced version of >>=?
14:08:10 <hpc> @src (>=>)
14:08:10 <lambdabot> Source not found. Do you think like you type?
14:08:14 <hpc> bah
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14:08:27 <hpc> (>=>) is defined in terms of (>>=)
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14:08:43 <hpc> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.0.0/docs/src/Control.Monad.html#%3E%3D%3E
14:09:29 <hpc> if you consider (<=<) instead, it has some nice parallels to (.)
14:09:31 <hpc> :t (<=<)
14:09:32 <lambdabot> Monad m => (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> a -> m c
14:09:35 <hpc> :t (.)
14:09:36 <lambdabot> (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
14:09:57 <hpc> so it's like function composition with extra goodies
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14:11:38 <hpc> :t (=<<)
14:11:39 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
14:11:40 <hpc> :t ($)
14:11:40 <lambdabot> (a -> b) -> a -> b
14:11:49 <hpc> ^ is another point of comparison
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14:14:22 <albet70> . is a subset of <=<?
14:15:19 <albet70> why people prefer <<= than <=<?
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14:16:06 <albet70> :t (<<=)
14:16:07 <lambdabot> error:
14:16:07 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: <<=
14:16:07 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant one of these:
14:16:21 <Rembane_> albet70: If you already have a value =<< is much easier to work with. :)
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14:17:07 <Rembane_> albet70: getLine >>= putStrLn -- is easier than:
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14:17:36 <hpc> yeah, (<=<) is more useful for the theoretical connections
14:17:45 <Rembane_> albet70: (const getLine) >=> putStrLn ()
14:18:12 <hpc> being able to wave your hands and say "Kleisli is a category" makes various other things possible
14:18:16 <Rembane_> Indeed, although both (<=<) and (>=>) are very nice for doing pointless style programming with monads.
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14:21:38 <helby> Hello people, I got some error during cabal build > linux-musl/bin/ld: cannot find -lffi Any idea? https://envs.sh/Eub.txt
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14:28:24 <helby> I would say, I failed in fail
14:28:35 <helby> hups not, here
14:31:13 <albet70> >>= :: (e->a) -> (a->e->b) ->e -> b is ok?
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14:31:49 <geekosaur> % :t (>>=) @((->) _)
14:31:49 <yahb> geekosaur: (w -> a) -> (a -> w -> b) -> w -> b
14:33:08 <geekosaur> which is the same as: (w -> a) -> (a -> w -> b) -> (w -> b)
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14:34:15 <albet70> :% :t (<=<) @((->) _)
14:34:36 <albet70> % :t (<=<) @((->) _)
14:34:36 <yahb> albet70: (b -> w -> c) -> (a -> w -> b) -> a -> w -> c
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14:42:46 <fusion86> Hey all, for a homework assignment we have to write a simple ical parser. So far so good. However I am currently stuck on verifying whether the lexed tokens actually from a valid structure. For this I need to check whether a token at a given position is of a certain type. I currently do this with a crappy pattern match, but I was wondering whether there is a better way to solve this. Code: https://paste.tomsmeding.co
14:42:46 <fusion86> m/aML9L05e
14:43:01 <fusion86> Non-linebroken link: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/aML9L05e
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14:44:01 <fusion86> This does use an in house parser, but the pattern match thingy should be understandable without knowing about the parser lib.
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14:45:46 <helby> fixed, missed libffi-dev crap
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14:49:26 <albet70> % :t (>=>) @((->) _)
14:49:26 <yahb> albet70: (a -> w -> b) -> (b -> w -> c) -> a -> w -> c
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15:04:33 <albet70> I wonder what's the case to use >>= and >=> on function form
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15:06:01 <geekosaur> we don't, usually. but the Functor instance is useful and we get the Applicative and Monad instances "for free", as it were
15:06:21 <geekosaur> every so often we use those, but they tend to make for really confusing code
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15:08:19 <geekosaur> people's minds just don't seem to generalize that way
15:08:28 <hpc> there's Reader, if you don't count newtype wrappers
15:08:58 <hpc> but you probably should in this case, you go crazy pretty quickly without it :D
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15:12:43 <geekosaur> (there's a bit of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should" in here)
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15:20:03 <albet70> so Reader is useless?
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15:22:46 <hpc> Reader is useful, doing Reader stuff with bare (->) is what geekosaur is refering to
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15:27:35 <geekosaur> right, Reader adds just enough that it's sane to work with. ((->) e) directly is mind-bending
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17:14:25 <koz> A while back, someone posted a link in here which argued that 'constant time' access is really Theta(sqrt(n)) due to (among other things) limitations of our physics. I can't seem to find that link anymore - does anyone know what I'm looking for?
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17:15:43 <hpc> haha, that's awesome
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17:29:23 <EvanR> true, try implementing constant time lookup in conway life
17:30:23 <EvanR> you can only access at most order of t^2 things around you in a given time
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17:31:34 <hpc> wouldn't it be the light-sphere's volume, not its surface area?
17:32:04 <koz> hpc: The thing I'm trying to find specifies why it's not volume.
17:32:06 <EvanR> the volume of the light sphere is a square xD
17:32:19 <EvanR> proof by cellular automaton
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17:34:36 <hpc> also space is expanding, so you only have a few hundred trillion years to work with
17:34:42 <hpc> so asymptotic notation doesn't really work :D
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17:42:03 <[exa]> koz: it's called "the myth of ram"
17:42:16 <[exa]> koz: http://www.ilikebigbits.com/2014_04_21_myth_of_ram_1.html
17:42:19 <EvanR> holographic principle says all information in the volume is encoded on the surface
17:42:26 <koz> [exa]: Thank you!
17:43:18 <dolio> The holographic principle explanation is silly, though.
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17:44:31 <[exa]> hard computer science truths: 1] universe is finite 2] dimensions are few
17:45:06 <EvanR> keep your universe to yourself
17:45:07 <dolio> The actual relevant reason is that chips are flat, and will probably remain mostly flat, because of heat dissipation.
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17:46:26 <yin> how do i tell cabal to run with -O2 by default?
17:47:07 <sclv> you can put it in ghc options in the ~/.cabal/config file
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17:47:10 <sclv> i dont recommend it tho
17:47:20 <yin> ghc-options: -O2 ?
17:48:00 <yin> can't i put it in my projectname.cabal file?
17:48:11 <yin> and why not?
17:48:26 <sclv> well then it only runs on that package by default
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17:48:35 <sclv> which isn't what i thought you were asking
17:48:39 <sclv> but yes, you can also put it there!
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17:48:43 <yin> sclv: that's exactly what i wat
17:48:46 <yin> *want
17:48:47 <sclv> ok, then put it there :-)
17:48:56 <yin> i did
17:49:05 <yin> it's not working
17:49:53 <yin> cabal run myporject is using -O1 (which is the default, according to docs)
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17:50:05 <yin> project, even
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17:50:36 <EvanR> so constant time is both not physically accurate for RAM and theoretically misleading for hashtables since they're based on finite ints, got it
17:51:28 <EvanR> or with finite anything everything is O(1), and then it's really not
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17:53:35 <[exa]> EvanR: there's O, theta and omega. Everything is O(1) in an universe that ends with the big-antibang, but we're usually going for the average/lower/amortized complexity
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17:55:31 <[exa]> in this view, you're usually trying to get the average/amortized complexity, where universe size is luckily not relevant
17:57:11 <EvanR> actually how did physics even sneak in. Don't you usually just identify what it is you are counting as basic operations and say that has cost 1 or size 1 and go from there. And the result is relative to that and not stephen hawking shit
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17:57:14 <dolio> O doesn't have anything to do with what sort of performance you're measuring.
17:59:25 <[exa]> EvanR: physics sneaks in because it creates the O bound on the amount of RAM vs latency. (in 2D universe the RAM access would be A(n)).
17:59:44 <EvanR> A?
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18:00:15 <[exa]> dolio: I'm usually using O for asymptotic upper bound, theta for both-bounds, omega for lower bound, A for amortized time ( <- EvanR )
18:00:37 <[exa]> we might just be clashing on notation, sorry :]
18:01:21 <dolio> There are upper bounds, both bounds and lower bounds for worst case, average case and amortized cost.
18:02:32 <[exa]> dolio: that sounds overly complicated (like, average case is amortized right, by beancounting), do you have a link to definitions?
18:03:30 <dolio> Wikipedia. O, Ω, Θ, o, etc. have nothing inherently to do with costs of algorithms.
18:03:51 <dolio> They are abount bounds on functions.
18:04:54 <dolio> Average, worst, amortized, etc. identifies which cost function is being analyzed.
18:05:00 <[exa]> that checks, I was pointing out that the finite-universe shortcut to O(1) doesn't work with Θ
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18:05:35 <EvanR> (also who invited the big anti-bang?)
18:05:57 <[exa]> EvanR: I couldn't remember how's the end of universe called. Big shrink? Big squash?
18:06:08 <EvanR> big crunch?
18:06:14 <[exa]> ah yes, likely
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18:06:45 <hpc> that only happens in desitter spaces
18:07:05 <EvanR> last I checked expansion is accelerating
18:07:08 <hpc> our universe will accelerate its expansion until light-cones are too small to support mass
18:07:40 <hpc> and then if roger penrose is correct, really weird stuff happens
18:07:49 <EvanR> yawn xD
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18:08:05 <EvanR> let him have his toilet paper
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18:08:51 <hpc> ?
18:09:30 <EvanR> penrose tiling IP scandal
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18:10:00 <dolio> Also, amortized is not the same as average. Amortized analysis involves attributing some costs of expensive operations to cheaper operations, and ensuring the enough cheap operations occur between expensive ones to ensure that the total cost is less per operation than the expensive ones.
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18:10:47 <dolio> Whereas average case is about the performance of 'most' inputs or something.
18:10:49 <hpc> EvanR: link?
18:11:53 <EvanR> http://bit-player.org/2017/sir-roger-penroses-toilet-paper
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18:12:53 <[exa]> dolio: we usually did beancounting and divided that by the number of operations, which sounds a lot like average... although "average" might be over a different set, yeah
18:13:04 <dolio> Like, quicksort's average case might be some function of log n, because most inputs will sort in log time.
18:13:44 <hpc> heh
18:13:51 <dolio> Er, n*(log n).
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18:14:41 <[exa]> ah yeah "average run over a random input of size n" vs "average in a series of related runs"
18:14:52 [exa] punishes self
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18:15:47 <dolio> Yeah. And amortized is better than that, even, I think. It's like, something 'expensive' doesn't happen until you've accumulated enough slack from cheap stuff.
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18:16:19 <dolio> So, it's not just averaging out randomly.
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18:35:42 <yin> how do we pass command line arguments to ghcid?
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18:37:20 <Hecate> --setup
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19:20:09 <yin> i did --run=":main args"
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19:20:51 <yin> culdn't seem to get setup to work
19:21:00 <yin> i'm sure i'm missing something
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19:21:28 <yin> also for some reason --no-status is not working
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19:49:20 <Franciman> yin:
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19:49:47 <Franciman> are you trying to pass arguents to cabal?
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19:50:48 <geekosaur> ghcid, if I read scrollback correctly
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20:35:28 <sm> @where paste, yin
20:35:28 <lambdabot> I know nothing about paste,.
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20:35:50 <Hecate> @where paste
20:35:50 <lambdabot> Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
20:36:12 <sm> (a similarish ghcid command works here)
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20:37:57 <hpc> @where paste -- ooh, does that error message mean this works now?
20:37:57 <lambdabot> Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
20:38:00 <mreh> could someone explain the type of runF?
20:38:00 <hpc> yessssss
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20:39:06 <mreh> I'm not quite sure how to use it
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20:40:00 mreh reads http://comonad.com/reader/2011/free-monads-for-less-2/
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20:43:55 <sm> hpc, this also works:
20:43:55 <sm> @where paste (@ must be in column 0, argument word must have nothing next to it)
20:43:55 <lambdabot> Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
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20:44:58 <sm> it would save some noise if it were a little more forgiving
20:46:57 <edwardk> mreh: runF takes come computation in the 'free' monad, how to convert 'a's at the leaves to values of type 'r' and the ability to convert layers of 'f r -> r' and runs the whole tree of actions represented by the free monad.
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20:48:01 <edwardk> e.g. if you have some other monad 'm', you might pick r = 'm a' pass it 'pure as the first argument, and something that converts f (m a) -> m a as the second. and interpret into the other monad
20:48:52 <edwardk> that is what 'fromF' does, using runF.
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22:41:43 <EvanR> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/RyJqXSBg 😎
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22:45:15 <EvanR> dangit I think I missed something
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22:46:40 <nautical> help
22:47:16 <EvanR> to integrate I need an initial value
22:48:12 <Axman6> @help
22:48:12 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
22:49:53 <EvanR> and I only had one pair of shades
22:50:03 <geekosaur> nautical, what is your problem?
22:50:18 <nautical> sorry, that was an accident
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23:03:36 <EvanR> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/h0Aqsfh3 this nonsense brought to you by differential geometry
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23:14:46 <EvanR> its too bad that exploiting local linearity requires ridiculously small step sizes, relative to better integration method
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23:23:11 yin pkills -9 ghc for the 9th time today
23:24:11 <yushyin> not cool
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23:25:30 yin yushes
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23:26:02 <geekosaur> what's going wrong?
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23:26:14 <yin> EvanR: why dt and not δ
23:26:17 <geekosaur> does ghc -v tell you where it's getting stuck?
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23:26:43 <EvanR> laziness
23:27:32 <Axman6> I had some fun with the DAML compiler the other day (which is based on GHC) where it would take an hour to finally report a type error. I thought it was just getting stuck but someone else compiled my branch and forgot about it and came back an hour later to find an error. fun times
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23:28:15 <mreh> prime.haskell.org is down
23:28:53 <Axman6> try #haskell-infrastructure
23:29:03 <mreh> Bezos getting litigious?
23:29:08 <mreh> Axman6: thanks
23:29:12 <yin> geekosaur: it's not really getting stuck, i mean... i ^C out of ghcid and after a while i notice there's a zombie ghc process hogging my cpu.
23:29:32 <geekosaur> oh
23:29:48 geekosaur already notified #haskell-infrastructure
23:30:00 <geekosaur> yin, windows by any chance?
23:30:26 <yin> no, but 32bit arm
23:30:53 <yin> ubuntu in this instance
23:31:03 <geekosaur> hm. I know there are problems with subprocesses on windows, but that should not affect arm ubuntu
23:31:20 <geekosaur> then again I think I have heard of this happening before, so it might be a ghcid bug
23:31:36 <geekosaur> or yet another bug in the process library, I guess
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23:35:36 <yin> i think it also happened when i did "watch ghc ...", which i used t do before finding out about ghcid
23:36:40 <geekosaur> mm, wonder if anyone'[s watching the infra tonight
23:37:48 <mreh> geekosaur: where's it hosted? UK?
23:38:02 <mreh> UCL IIRC
23:39:48 <geekosaur> don't know
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23:40:17 <geekosaur> just thinking it's sunday evening in the US, midnight in the UK, past midnight in Europe
23:40:26 <geekosaur> probably a really bad time to find anyone around
23:41:04 <mreh> I'm about to go to bed, so I'm not so bothered!
23:41:15 <hpc> maybe in australia
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23:42:17 <mreh> I was fixing something, wanted to check on the deal with Control.Monad.Fail
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23:42:48 <mreh> Docs say it's been in since base-4.9.0.0, I think at least
23:43:33 <geekosaur> you might also be able to check it on the proposals github?
23:43:46 <mreh> ah, okay
23:43:50 <mreh> thanks
23:45:28 <mreh> geekosaur: do you have a link?
23:46:09 <mreh> is it ghc-proposals?
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23:47:22 <mreh> can't see it, oh well
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23:48:24 <geekosaur> yes and I don't see it either
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23:48:42 <geekosaur> must hyave come before the proposals process as I see several follow-ons but not MonadFail itself
23:48:49 <geekosaur> oh well
23:49:12 <mreh> This lib imports it and is supposed to support base >=4.7
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23:50:43 <maplike> I have a `[(a,b)]` and I'd like to aggregate all the `b`s per `a`, into a `[a,[b]]`. I though something like `fromList` or `foldMap` might help but my aggregate is not the same type as the values. How should I be thinking about this?
23:50:48 <mreh> Anyway, the code compiles, my work is done...
23:50:49 <mreh> gn
23:51:11 <mreh> :t partition
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23:51:12 <lambdabot> (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> ([a], [a])
23:51:28 <mreh> Hmm, no
23:52:16 <maplike> same issue - - probably a SemiGroup thing :)
23:52:32 <mreh> maplike: I would fold over a Map personally
23:52:58 × max22- quits (~maxime@2a01cb0883359800f9d5861d99da2e2e.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:53:21 <maplike> ... still need to create the Map (that is why I looked at fromList)
23:54:14 <jackdk> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/containers-0.6.4.1/docs/Data-Map-Lazy.html#v:fromListWith would be the simple choice
23:54:28 <mreh> fold the list into a Map a [(a, b)] and then `fmap snd`
23:54:31 <maplike> I think I tried that one too
23:55:42 <mreh> [a,[b]] looks like a heterogenous list to me
23:55:56 <jackdk> I assumed it was a typo of `[(a, [b])]`
23:56:18 <maplike> no
23:56:33 <maplike> otherwise there'd be plenty of choices
23:56:48 <geekosaur> casn you assign a type to this [a,[b]] ?
23:57:03 <mreh> sure a = [b]
23:57:26 → lavaman joins (~lavaman@98.38.249.169)
23:57:41 <maplike> think [Country, Language], for example
23:57:44 <mreh> but I don't think that's what maplike wants
23:58:02 <maplike> and, some coutries have multiple languages, but Language is not a monoid
23:58:10 <mreh> maplike: are Country and Language different types?
23:58:13 <maplike> yes
23:58:30 <geekosaur> you cannot have such a list, is the point we're trying to make
23:58:42 <mreh> I'm off to bed ;)
23:58:46 <maplike> it seems that in Haskell, that data-structure is not a good fit for the behaviours I would want
23:58:56 <maplike> really?!
23:59:01 <geekosaur> lists are collections of all one type
23:59:08 <mreh> it's 12am
23:59:10 <mreh> bye!
23:59:13 <geekosaur> > [1,'A']
23:59:15 <lambdabot> error:
23:59:15 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Num Char) arising from the literal ‘1’
23:59:15 <lambdabot> • In the expression: 1
23:59:24 <geekosaur> hm, not the best example
23:59:24 × mreh quits (~matthew@host81-157-195-163.range81-157.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: leaving)
23:59:25 <maplike> thanks mreh
23:59:31 <geekosaur> > [1::Int,'A']
23:59:33 <lambdabot> error:
23:59:33 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Int’ with actual type ‘Char’
23:59:33 <lambdabot> • In the expression: 'A'
23:59:37 <maplike> I see
23:59:59 <maplike> it is a typo, the elements are tuples

All times are in UTC on 2021-11-28.